We agreed not to talk about Go Fish - but to speed right ahead to Becoming.  Not sure if you want to talk about 1 and 2 together or separately.  I like together.  Buffy marathon tonight - discuss tomorrow.  Hello Cutie.

Sigh, I have parent/teacher meetings.  Hee, parent/teacher night!  If only Spike would crash mine.  Still, I hope everyone has fun discussing my favorite episode!

Watch out for the girl with the garden trowel.

We should do both episode together - 

Here's some thoughts, in no particular order.

B2 - Buffy actually shoves her mother!  I didn't think Joyce was having unreasonable attitude under the circumstances.  Buffy's black and violent heart is showing.

Willow is beyond obnoxious and bullheaded in both episodes.  Giles says its a hard spell and he (who has knowledge and experience) doesn't feel up to it.  Willow's attitude is not only I can do it, but I'm the only person to do it.  The gall. 

On the tooth grinding side - interregnum does not refer to vampires or what other silly thing they were going for.  Jeesh.

Buffy wears popsicle sticks in her hair.

Loved the Xander french fry fight.

Everyone is so anxious to get Angel's soul back, but in order to do it, Buffy has to keep the fight going.  By doing so, she runs the danger of getting killed.  I suppose they know that Angel is hanging around with Spike and Drusilla and Buffy has not revealed her deal with Spike., increasing her danger - at least as far as they know.  Not to mention that Spike is not exactly on the trustworthy list.  So, I'm with Xander.  Angel needed to go and Willow was out of her mind. 

I don't know if it's Buffy's black and vicious heart.  I think she was cracking under the strain.  From what I've observed, most teenagers respond to stress by striking out physically at something--hitting their locker, getting into fist-fights, cutting themselves--the list goes on. 

I do however agree with your thoughts on Willow.  She was trying to fix things for Buffy, even though her path to fixing things was probably not the best thing for Buffy. 

Now for something of my own:  I like how Giles' story arc plays out in these episodes.  First off, as Spikeztart points out, Willow disregards Giles' opinions about the re-ensoulment spell.  I see Giles' kidnapping as an extension of that situation.  Giles loses control and all of the power of being a Watcher is taken out of his hands.  By the end of Becoming pt. II, he doesn't even know where his slayer is. 

In a way, the violence against Giles at Angelus' hands is the through-the-looking-glass reflection of what's going on with Joyce and Buffy.  There was a season long theme of parents not knowing where and what their kids were doing--starting with Sheila and the kid who was piecing together a girlfriend for his undead brother.  Joyce's relationship with Buffy gets even deeper into denial, just as Buffy's surrogate father also starts to lose some of his relationship with her.  Even Angel, who has like what?  Almost 200 years on Giles?  Even Angel looked to Giles for advice, but when he reverted to Angelus, killed Jenny, and tortured Giles, it was the complete and utter destruction of any good opinion Giles would ever have of Angel.  And looking just at Becoming Part II, we didn't know that Buffy would ever mend her relationship with Joyce, so one could assume that the creators wanted us to think that Buffy and Joyce's relationship was completely and utterly destroyed, too.

In a lot of ways, the destruction of the family unit is applicable to all characters involved.  At the end of the episode, Angel is dead, Buffy is running away, Joyce is probably at home calling the hospitals and morgues, Spike and Dru are in Mexico, and the Scoobies are all, for lack of better words, smashed and wrecked.  The real family is disassembled, the vampire family has lost a member (and will soon splinter again in South America), and the surrogate family of Watcher and family has lost its center. 

I also have to say that season 2 is my favorite season (well, tied with 3 and 5, but I love it very, very much).  I know this is getting long, but I just have one more thing to say:  this is the episode where my bangel love died forever and ever.  See, I saw most of season 2 first, then all of season 3, and then I saw these episodes. 

Right from "Hello, cutie," I knew that Spike was not there to hurt Buffy.  I point to this episode a lot when discussing Spike's evolution of character.  People who say that Spike is not as good as Angel need only look at Spike's attitude towards saving the world.  He likes the world; he doesn't want it destroyed.  He doesn't want to save the world out of regret or guilt or any other (however valid) reason.  I mean, Spike almost always focuses outward, whereas Angel focuses inward.  Even when he's Angelus, he wants to destroy the world because it doesn't suit him. 

Plus, he gives Angel the beating he deserves.  Yeah, Buffy and Angel had a wicked fight, but Spike beat the ever-living crap out of him, which I had been wanting to see all season.  I wanted to see that stupid smirk wiped off his face, and I truly enjoyed seeing Spike attack him from the back--Spike's betrayal kind of reminds me of how Angel pretty much did the same thing to Buffy.  Which reminds me of her kicking him where it hurts in "Surprise."  Is it wrong that I rejoiced for her at that moment?  Ah, well, that's a topic for another thread. 

I felt the same thing when Spike joined forces with her.  Yes, Buffy had Xander, Willow, and Giles on her side, too, but at the same time, this season is the root of the judgmental behavior they exhibited towards Buffy.  Spike, on the other hand, looked at it pragmatically.  They couldn't defeat Dru and Angelus alone, and Spike knew Buffy wouldn't want her watcher to die.  So, long story short, I had a crush on Spike all during season 2, but "Becoming" is when I fell in love.

Plus, apologies for the super long post!

Watched both episodes last night - have to say that this is one hell of a season finale - All the performances were so excellent - especially SMG with the ending scenes - she brought such life and despair to that scene.  DB was also very good, but she was splendid.  Loved James Marsters in their first encounter and Anthony Head was so excellent in this episode.   Angelus was a real monster and his lines about really hoping that Giles could not give him the needed info was great his lines about really wanting to torture Giles were the quintessential voice of Angelus.

One very weak point and big error in the production was having Angelus/Angel not have any physical damaged on his body after Spike totally went berserk  with that iron - even for a vampire, Angelus should have had some marks on his body from that beating. 

Best moment for Buffy - the great lines and lesson they gave her with that  "there's me"  line - all the entire season wrapped up in two words -

Loved Whistler - and I found his remarks to Angel/Angelus very interesting when he tells Angel that this Slayer must have been prettier than the last (paraphrase) wonderful and subtle set-up for his future.  

I don't understand the lines about "in the end, you're the only one you've got" or "no friends, no weapons, no hope. Take all that away and what's left? - Me." I mean, a big part of the story was that Buffy had people she could rely on or who supported her or were just there for her. Are we supposed to be glad that Buffy can stand on her own and still win? B/c honestly she doesn't do a good job when she decides to be independent. but mostly I just didn't like those lines because it was like confirming for Buffy that she was meant to be alone like the Council says, so why does she go back in S3 and so much want to reconnect with her old friends? And she becomes totally dependent on their judgments and opinions instead of confident that she was able to fight by herself and make the decision to save the world and send Angel to hell.

It's what they call dichotomy, Guest.  The Slayer has always been alone, but then this girl Buffy comes along and is very connected to the world.  So Buffy has to learn how to balance these two halves of herself.  Becoming Part II is saying that even when everything else has been stripped away, Buffy still has this core of strength that will carry her through.  She leaves at the end of the episode in order to heal a little bit on her own--her inner strength took damage in the last minutes of the show, so she withdraws.  I also think that Buffy was still operating on slayer instinct at the end of Becoming part II, which was saying "Now's the time to rest and be alone."  As we see in "Anne," when Buffy sees that she can still help people and be of use to the world, she goes home and reconnects with her world.

I do like becoming part two more than part one mainly for two reasons,
The first is it shows us just how smart Spike is. Amongst other things he is able to manipulate Angelus into not killing Giles, and as much as i adore Angel i love it when Spike starts to beat the crap out of him. more than that what i think is brilliant is how he is able to get Buffy onto his side in at least two minutes. If you listen to what he tells her after saving her from the cop is that he want to help her stop Angelus, more so that her watcher is at the moment still alive but if you keep fighting with me he will not stay that way.
However my favourite part is still Spike and Joyce in the living room. To me that beats everything else.

I also think that Buffy was still operating on slayer instinct at the end of Becoming part II, which was saying "Now's the time to rest and be alone."
I disagree with that. I don't think the slayer instinct prompts a rest and recovery time. It's the girl Buffy, not the slayer, who has to take a step back and be alone, because of what being the slayer has done to her. Even though her friends are what have kept her alive so far, being the slayer has separated her from them in forcing her to do something utterly incomprehensible to them. They could never understand what it feels like to kill your lover, and they'll never understand the choices she has to make. She just can't face her friends after that.

Another part of it is that she wants to run away from "slayer Buffy" and to leave all that pain behind. Being the slayer has taken away too much from "girl Buffy," and she doesn't want to do it anymore (similar to her "If Dawn dies, I'm done" comment from "The Gift" ). She doesn't want to have to make those choices, she doesn't want to have to be the one to sacrifice her boyfriend. Rather than following some slayer instinct, she's actually abandoning her slayer duty by running away. When Lily finds her and asks for help, she doesn't seem to have fought a vampire or demon since Angelus.

Also, I think she runs away because she doesn't feel welcome. Her mother did kick her out, and with Buffy in the emotional state she was in (and also being seventeen), I can see how running away would look like a better option than going back and trying to get her mother to understand what being the slayer is. She's also been expelled from school and charged with murder - going back means facing up to those problems, which I don't think she had the energy for after what killing Angel took out of her. Plus, when she goes back, Jenny Calendar and Kendra are still dead, Giles was still tortured, and Willow and Xander were still injured - and she sees it all as her fault. The only thing that kept her going during the second half of the season was that she knew she needed to kill Angelus to make up for causing him to lose his soul in the first place. But now she's done it, and it hasn't made any of those things better or easier to deal with. How can she continue to face her friends, knowing what she put them through?

Becoming 1 & 2 is the climax to both season - Buffy's ultimate trial for the acceptance of her destiny and duty as The Chosen One, the heroine of Sunnydale and servant of the people.  While Giles and all the Scoobies are her back up and friends and her immediate connection to this world, they serve as guides but like Whistler said - in the end only you are left to make the choice of picking up the burdens of your life and the life that you make for yourself. 

This was a huge test of courage and character for Buffy and all the major characters - they all had to make their final choice for the paths they were going to follow.  Buffy, in all her Heroine Magnificence does what she must, irrespective and as a conclusion to the theme of her desperate love for Angel, she tears him away from her life to fully take on the role as the Series Heroine Metaphor.   There could be no other conclusion, IMO, than Buffy and Angel/Angelus fighting alone at the end, just as it was vital that Angel/Angelus be return in his en-souled state - without this there would be not test of her character and the forging of her inner strength to be Alone At The End. 

This theme of final "aloneness" is, I think, reinforced with the Giles and Drusilla thrall - Giles was nothing but beautiful, courages and filled with an inner strength that would not be broken down - it is only when Spike calls in Drusilla to use LOVE against him that he becomes vulnerable to her thrall power.  And what a wonderful way to tie up Spike "love's bitch" lines - vulnerability to an all consuming love and the thrall of a love that makes one give over all that they are to another.  I don't meant to imply that this "all consuming love" is automatically wrong , but  there is no question that LOVE in its greatest strength is a double sided blade; it brings both great strength and great weakness.  What we do with that love is the test of its meit, at least that is my criteria for the "good" or "bad" of how love works in life. 

Parents and Loved Ones will guide you, just as Giles and the Scoobies work with Buffy, but it is only when a person takes full responsibility and control of their own life that a full realization of one inner strengths will emerge.  Parents die, lovers will leave you, familes break apart, poverty and riches ; a healthy body is lost, but through all of this, the character and strength we find and build for ourselves is the foundation for everything.  

That's why Buffy finds her Hero's path and can walk on the road, cause she can live without Angel if life requires that she must. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________  

Also, I think she runs away because she doesn't feel welcome. Her mother did kick her out, and with Buffy in the emotional state she was in (and also being seventeen), I can see how running away would look like a better option than going back and trying to get her mother to understand what being the slayer is. She's also been expelled from school and charged with murder - going back means facing up to those problems, which I don't think she had the energy for after what killing Angel took out of her
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Excellent summation.  After watching these episodes again, I believe even more that Joyce was wronged by Giles and the CoW - they placed her in the worst position possible.  Giles forced Buffy to withhold vital information from her mother and while it can be seen as part of Buffy having to learn to take on her duty as The Slayer and helped as a plot device, I personally don't think it worked.  Certainly parents and teenage children have a terrible time in communicating and living through this stage in the parent/child relationship - but imposing that theme or standard to the Parent/Slayer relationship, I don't think served the series especially.  I would have like to see more of how Joyce could have learned her own life lessons by being the parent of The Slayer.  Especially as one of the hardest things that teens have is trying to see things from the perspective of their parents - I suppose that bringing in the parental perspective would have muddled the focus, but it might have been something good as well.

In risk of being flamed by every fan of Buffy, what about Whistler's voice-over at the end of B part 1:  "The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are."
I'm pretty sure Buffy killing Angel counts as a big moment. Afterwards she's dealt with it, it's over, and she shows... what? That she gave up? That she can't handle it? That she gives up being a person strong enough to kill their lover to save the world?

Also, did anyone think Xander getting his arm broken and then shoving the vampire into the vampire attacking Cordelia and telling her to run resembled S5 when Xander had to choose if Willow or Anya died and refused to chose and so had his arm broken?

I'm pretty sure Buffy killing Angel counts as a big moment. Afterwards she's dealt with it, it's over, and she shows... what? That she gave up? That she can't handle it? That she gives up being a person strong enough to kill their lover to save the world?
I don't think that's quite what it means. The "big moment" is the situation - Buffy is in the position where she has to choose whether or not to kill Angel. And what she does about it - whether she chooses love or duty - shows us who she is.

Whistler's point is that things are going to happen to you that you can't prepare for, and there's nothing you can do to stop them. But what you CAN do is decide how you will react to it. Buffy killing Angel is not something that happened to her - it's something she decided to do. Things that happened to her are Angel losing his soul, killing Jenny, the attack on the library - those were the things she couldn't prepare for. And all of them set her up to make the choice - will she kill him or will she let the world be destroyed?