BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Episode Talk - ANNE
Here is the new Season Three Episode for discussion - Joss Whedon Script
Hope that we can get lot more members joining our Episode Talks - this, like all first season scripts is by Joss Whedon and has important themes about The Slayer and accepting duty and responsibility - Since this episode and the next lead into many of the themes of the emotional dynamics in The Scooby Circle and Joyce and Buffy plus the introduction of returns from death, it would be great to discuss how "Anne" and "Dead Man's Party" play out in the season.
It would be great to hear from more of the writers and learn how this episode, or particular episodes, influenced their work - also would be great to hear from the readers their thoughts on the visuals in the series -
Hope that we can get lot more members joining our Episode Talks - this, like all first season scripts is by Joss Whedon and has important themes about The Slayer and accepting duty and responsibility - Since this episode and the next lead into many of the themes of the emotional dynamics in The Scooby Circle and Joyce and Buffy plus the introduction of returns from death, it would be great to discuss how "Anne" and "Dead Man's Party" play out in the season.
It would be great to hear from more of the writers and learn how this episode, or particular episodes, influenced their work - also would be great to hear from the readers their thoughts on the visuals in the series -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 19 2008 02:09 am #2Spikez_tart
Here's some good ones
Anne
Dead Man's Party
Band Candy
Revelations
Lovers Walk - Come on! It's Spike!
The Wish
Helpless - Another Faboo Buffy Birthday
Bad Girls
Doppelgangland
Enemies
Grad Day 1 and 2
Anne
Dead Man's Party
Band Candy
Revelations
Lovers Walk - Come on! It's Spike!
The Wish
Helpless - Another Faboo Buffy Birthday
Bad Girls
Doppelgangland
Enemies
Grad Day 1 and 2
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
If members are a little tired of doing the chronological discussions - can we combine discussions - Anne with Dean Man's Party? we could also take a break and do a Dreams Episodes discussion.
Comments Please -
Comments Please -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
My list is going to be:
Anne and Dead Man's Party in one thread.
Revelations.
Lovers Walk
The Wish
Helpless
Bad Girls and Consequences
Enemies and The Prom
Grad Day 1 and 2
(I was busy for a whole month, but I'll be willing to join the discussion with season three)
We will go with your list - thanks for your suggestions - I have found that I automatically connect 2 or 3 episodes together.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 20 2008 01:40 am #6Spikez_tart
Combining is good.
Nmcil - maybe you could come up with a list of Dream episodes and start a separate thread.
Nmcil - maybe you could come up with a list of Dream episodes and start a separate thread.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I love the dreamscape episodes and I will put together a listing -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Seems like there is not much interest in the discussion for "Anne" and "Dead Man's Party" - so I will pose this question:
Is "Dead Man's Party" the episode where we first encounter the darker side of Willow's emotional character traits? She and Xander both show some hard feelings for Buffy for taking off to LA. What was the purpose of having this Buffy welcome home event turn into a big party of strangers and chaos? What are the connections to Buffy's experiences from "Anne" with the following episode "Dead Man's Party"
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I see two reasons for the big Welcome Buffy Home thing. First, to make Buffy feel like nothing's different from the old days. Second, it made Buffy feel guilty (and there's where the darker sides of Willow and Xander appear). There's also a third reason, which only seems apparent when I look at the season as a whole. The third season was all about Buffy's connection to the world. All those random strangers showing up at her party is a means of conveying that metaphor. It started in "Anne," with Chantelle/Lily/Anne remembering that Buffy helped her get out of the vamp fan club alive. In "Dead Man's Party," Buffy doesn't know all the kids at the party, but when we look at the Class Protector award scene in "The Prom," it tells us that at least some of those kids knew her actions if not her name.
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Excellent points LindsayH - especially connecting to the Class Savior Award and Jonathan's lovely speech that night -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I don't see where the darker side of Willow and Xander is, they were just two angry 17 year old kids, who were scared and upset that their friend disappeared without calling or mailing a letter to at least tell them she was okay. They had to slay Buffy's vampires in order to keep others safe. I think their anger is understandable and shows nothing but that they at least cared about her enough to feel something about the whole thing. At that moment they weren't treating Buffy like a slayer, they were treating her like their normal human friend, something I came across to in real life. Someone I knew disappeared because she was having a hard life, instead of coming to us, her friends, she chose to vanish and leave us in the dark, not knowing if she was dead or alive, every night praying that she would return unharmed. Imagine how angry and relieved we were when she came back. We didn't even feel like throwing a party for her, whet she had done was stupid and selfish.
Let's not forget that Joyce was also rightfully upset with Buffy. The only one who probably understood was Giles, seeing that he understands Buffy's role as a slayer better than anyone.
Let's not forget that Joyce was also rightfully upset with Buffy. The only one who probably understood was Giles, seeing that he understands Buffy's role as a slayer better than anyone.
Mar 21 2008 11:04 pm #12Spikez_tart
She and Xander both show some hard feelings for Buffy - I think they're punishing her - every one is. No one wants to be alone with her, talk to her, deal with her problems. Instead Xander and Willow have this huge party where they can show Buffy - la la la - we didn't need you at all. See how many friends we have?
[Willow and Xander] had to slay vampires - no, they didn't. They could have just stayed home every night and done nothing. If they slayed, it was because as moral people, they did what was necessary. Buffy is like a cop here. We all want to stay safe in our homes and let some underpaid police officer do the dirty work. That doesn't mean that W & X don't resent having to chase after vamps big time.
Joyce is not only deeply hurt, mad at Buffy and trying vainly to re-establish parental control, but she is massively PO'd at Giles - and she is right. Joyce is really the one who was betrayed here. Everyone - Giles, Buffy, Xander, Willow, Cordelia and Oz all kept the secret from her. They saw her all the time, they talked to her, lied to her. Every day. Even Spike lied to Joyce when he backed up Buffy's lame story about being in a band.
Liked your points Lindsay - Buffy needs to know that her actions affect many people - good and bad - that she may never know or even meet. This knowledge might give her the ability to accept her calling. It (along with the Class Protector Award) is an ironic slap at Giles who thinks she needs to keep her Slayerness a secret. Is Superman a secret? Hell no.
[Willow and Xander] had to slay vampires - no, they didn't. They could have just stayed home every night and done nothing. If they slayed, it was because as moral people, they did what was necessary. Buffy is like a cop here. We all want to stay safe in our homes and let some underpaid police officer do the dirty work. That doesn't mean that W & X don't resent having to chase after vamps big time.
Joyce is not only deeply hurt, mad at Buffy and trying vainly to re-establish parental control, but she is massively PO'd at Giles - and she is right. Joyce is really the one who was betrayed here. Everyone - Giles, Buffy, Xander, Willow, Cordelia and Oz all kept the secret from her. They saw her all the time, they talked to her, lied to her. Every day. Even Spike lied to Joyce when he backed up Buffy's lame story about being in a band.
Liked your points Lindsay - Buffy needs to know that her actions affect many people - good and bad - that she may never know or even meet. This knowledge might give her the ability to accept her calling. It (along with the Class Protector Award) is an ironic slap at Giles who thinks she needs to keep her Slayerness a secret. Is Superman a secret? Hell no.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I think the cop idea is pretty good, too. When Buffy is around, the supernatural baddies are more likely to be elsewhere. When cops are more visible, crime tends to be lower, too.
The only way I can think Buffy's identity being known could hurt her is that most demons don't need an invite to break into a home. Also, vamps could just set fire to her house.
The only way I can think Buffy's identity being known could hurt her is that most demons don't need an invite to break into a home. Also, vamps could just set fire to her house.
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Ok, I'm actually watching the 3rd season now instead of just running on memory. You know how the whole gang gets kind of ugly and confrontational in "Dead Man's Party?" I think that's what they needed in the 6th season. I mean, relationships get ugly occasionally, but sometimes the ugly is needed to get things out in the open. Otherwise, the situation gets wicked bad and someone tries to raise some obelisk-cult thingy that'll end the world. Or so I've heard.
I'm bored. Which episode's next?
I'm bored. Which episode's next?
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
I think Revelation is next.
I agree that Xander and Willow didn't have to do it, but without Buffy around, they feel they had to (just like when Buffy died in season five) They signed themselves to fight the fight and they feel it is their duty to do it when the slayer isn't around. Buffy has the experience and superpowers to do it, Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia don't, which was probably frusturating.
I think what I'm disagreeing about is that Xander and Willow's anger is described as their dark side, which I think is an exaggeration. They acted normally to a situation that happens sometimes in real life. I think they tried to be understanding. With Willow, she chided Xander when he spoke ill about Buffy in the library, when she blew Buffy off twice, Willow went to Buffy's room, maybe to say sorry for how she treated her or maybe to bring her back to the party, it shows however that Willow noticed Buffy wasn't around. With Xander, the tears in his eyes and the choked voice when he first saw her after the long absence is enough to show that he cares a lot. It's the relief before the anger. When Buffy ran into Xander in the party, she wanted to go unnoticed by him, but he still noticed her and asked her if everything was aokay, not to mention that he didn't start yelling at her until Buffy was yelling at Joyce. Xander had seen Joyce suffering but he didn't see Buffy suffering, it's normal to sympathize with the person you have seen suffer than the one you didn't, even if she was your best friend.
Do I think Xander and Willow acted selfishly? Yes. Do I think they were right to be angry? Yes. Do I think they handled the situation maturily? No. And that's the thing, all of them were not mature. They're seventeen. Emotions usually ruled brains. Giles was the only one who knew how to handle it because other than being the watcher, he was a mature man, he was also in a stage where he didn't realize he has parental feelings towards Buffy, he'd realize that in Helpless.
From a viewing perspective "Anne" is one of the better BtVS episodes in my opinion. For the first time we're given a view of Buffy sans friends and family, which is refreshing and we are also given a similar view of them in pinpointed-highlights that are both flattering and unflattering. Buffy has tried to avoid her fate before - think back to the beginning of the series when she first met Giles. We're given the impression in "WttH" that Buffy thought she was finished with vampire slaying only to find herself neck deep in it once arriving to Sunnydale.
I thought it was a brilliant use of character to bring Lily into the episode as the catalyst for snapping Buffy back to the reality that being a slayer wasn't something she could run away from or just not do anymore. The lead demon of the slave dimension was wonderfully creepy with his "humans don't fight back" mantra and tear away face. I thought the dream-foreshadowing with Angel was a bit hokey, but it wasn't terrible. They had to get the actor some scenes in there some how.
Many times in these episodes caricatures are used a bit free handedly and in slightly eye-rolling ways. I couldn't help but be annoyed with the ass slapping patrons in the diner, but then again this is a series that uses stereotypes to excess so I really shouldn't be surprised. The only thing it was lacking was a Flo-clone in the corner snapping her gum telling the line cook to "kiss mah grits!" and suggesting Buffy ought to up her hairspray/lipstick application to attract the right beau.
From a continuity standpoint, watching it with a discerning eye, character integrity at the forefront of my mind this is one episode and it's follow-up "Dead Man's Party" that left me a bit puzzled. I was always impressed with the level of maturity Buffy's circle of friends showed to repeatedly stand with her and fight despite their lack of extra gifts - at least at this stage in the storyline. Their resentment of being deserted by their friend wasn't a result of their young ages in my opinion. Had they been older I don't think their reactions would have been much different, though possibly not as ... excessive, which I believe is more a drama-angst ploy from the writers than anything. The catharsis of the fight, the zombies, the yelling all cleared the air and was far more realistic to their characters than just sweeping everything under the rug and ignoring it - which we saw a great deal of in season six. Yet ... it was a a bit quick, wasn't it? The whole clearing the air thing.
"Dead Man's Party" had lots of funny lines, though the episode as a whole is a bit disjointed. In "Anne" we see worried friends doing their best to understand and move forward while they worry about their friend. Giles is predictably obsessed with finding Buffy and her mother is both in turn worried and furious. All of this is very much in character. The near one-eighty we get in "DMP" after Buffy returns is, as I said, excessive and doesn't really fit into the character portrayal only one episode back. I think it would have been more in tune to have these behaviors (the passive aggressiveness and the avoidance) to pop up for a couple of episodes and then they should have thrown "DMP" at us. Would have shown more forethought. Especially since the season is a bit dull until Band Candy - aside from Faith's introduction. Would have made a nice sub-plot, but oh-well.
Best line in the episode "Anne" came from Lily at the very end - "Can I be Anne?" Best in "DMP" - Giles's riff on Joyce - "Unbelievable! 'Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!' Americans!" It doesn't really convey well in print, but the actor's delivery was spot on. Great stuff.
I thought it was a brilliant use of character to bring Lily into the episode as the catalyst for snapping Buffy back to the reality that being a slayer wasn't something she could run away from or just not do anymore. The lead demon of the slave dimension was wonderfully creepy with his "humans don't fight back" mantra and tear away face. I thought the dream-foreshadowing with Angel was a bit hokey, but it wasn't terrible. They had to get the actor some scenes in there some how.
Many times in these episodes caricatures are used a bit free handedly and in slightly eye-rolling ways. I couldn't help but be annoyed with the ass slapping patrons in the diner, but then again this is a series that uses stereotypes to excess so I really shouldn't be surprised. The only thing it was lacking was a Flo-clone in the corner snapping her gum telling the line cook to "kiss mah grits!" and suggesting Buffy ought to up her hairspray/lipstick application to attract the right beau.
From a continuity standpoint, watching it with a discerning eye, character integrity at the forefront of my mind this is one episode and it's follow-up "Dead Man's Party" that left me a bit puzzled. I was always impressed with the level of maturity Buffy's circle of friends showed to repeatedly stand with her and fight despite their lack of extra gifts - at least at this stage in the storyline. Their resentment of being deserted by their friend wasn't a result of their young ages in my opinion. Had they been older I don't think their reactions would have been much different, though possibly not as ... excessive, which I believe is more a drama-angst ploy from the writers than anything. The catharsis of the fight, the zombies, the yelling all cleared the air and was far more realistic to their characters than just sweeping everything under the rug and ignoring it - which we saw a great deal of in season six. Yet ... it was a a bit quick, wasn't it? The whole clearing the air thing.
"Dead Man's Party" had lots of funny lines, though the episode as a whole is a bit disjointed. In "Anne" we see worried friends doing their best to understand and move forward while they worry about their friend. Giles is predictably obsessed with finding Buffy and her mother is both in turn worried and furious. All of this is very much in character. The near one-eighty we get in "DMP" after Buffy returns is, as I said, excessive and doesn't really fit into the character portrayal only one episode back. I think it would have been more in tune to have these behaviors (the passive aggressiveness and the avoidance) to pop up for a couple of episodes and then they should have thrown "DMP" at us. Would have shown more forethought. Especially since the season is a bit dull until Band Candy - aside from Faith's introduction. Would have made a nice sub-plot, but oh-well.
Best line in the episode "Anne" came from Lily at the very end - "Can I be Anne?" Best in "DMP" - Giles's riff on Joyce - "Unbelievable! 'Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!' Americans!" It doesn't really convey well in print, but the actor's delivery was spot on. Great stuff.
~ Q
I see two reasons for the big Welcome Buffy Home thing. First, to make Buffy feel like nothing's different from the old days. Second, it made Buffy feel guilty (and there's where the darker sides of Willow and Xander appear).
I disagree. I think the big party was because the gang was still uncomfortable around Buffy, and they thought that a quiet dinner would be too awkward.
Xander: And what'll we talk about at a gathering anyway? 'So, Buffy, did you meet any nice pimps on your travels? And oh, by the by, thanks for ruining our lives for the past three months.'
Willow: Xander...
Xander: You know what I mean. She doesn't want to talk about it, we don't want to talk about it, so why don't we just shut up and dance?
Willow also explicitly calls it a "welcome home dinner," not a party, which indicates that she knew what type of evening Joyce was planning. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, a dinner implies someone is cooking a meal - something that requires planning and an accurate number of attendees - and it's incredibly rude invite a bajillion people without telling the host. Granted, Oz may not have realized that when he asked whether it was a gathering, shindig, or hootenanny, but I think it's clear that Willow (and possibly Xander) at least knew, and deliberately sabotaged the evening to avoid having to talk to Buffy. Giles is also pretty complicit, as he knows what Joyce was thinking, but lets himself be persuaded by a bunch of teenagers with no manners, probably because he also finds it awkward to be around Buffy.
Giles: Uh, I-I'm not sure that, a, a, um... shindig...
Oz: Hootenanny.
Giles: H-hootenanny i-i-is really the order of the day. Uh, uh, it should... Maybe something a little more intimate. I-I-I mean, Buffy has just got home. I'm, I'm sure she's still feeling a little disoriented.
And this willful ignorance is only emphasized at the party when Willow pretends she can't hear Buffy, and Xander and Cordelia spend the whole time making out rather than talking to Buffy. That was one thing that really bugged me about this episode, Willow and Xander's behavior has always disgusted me. I get that they're angry and were worried about Buffy while she was missing, but there are appropriate ways to express anger and worry, and this passive aggressive shit is completely ridiculous. I don't think it shows a "darker nature," I think it's just teenage brattiness and bitchiness.
Is Superman a secret? Hell no.
Uh... isn't that what the whole "double life" thing is about? People may know Superman, but they don't know that he and Clark Kent are the same person. But unless Buffy's going to wear a spandex suit as the Slayer and wear glasses as Buffy, I don't see how they could make the Slayer public without giving away Buffy's identity.
The only way I can think Buffy's identity being known could hurt her is that most demons don't need an invite to break into a home. Also, vamps could just set fire to her house.
That's only the supernatural threat. What about humans? You don't think people would be freaked out by a superpowered girl? You don't think there would be people (the Initiative?) who would want to study her, experiment on her? I'm sure if the Slayer was public, there'd be people who thought she was a danger or a threat to humans, just like in the comics, and who would probably try to lock her up. There's also the chance that people will think she (and the Watcher's Council) is crazy and have her institutionalized (again).
I thought the dream-foreshadowing with Angel was a bit hokey, but it wasn't terrible. They had to get the actor some scenes in there some how.
I think the dreams were meant to throw people off - it would be a huge giveaway that Angel was coming back with David Boreanaz in the credits, since we know he's in hell. I think putting in the dream sequences lulls us into a false sense of "oh, he's not coming back, except in Buffy's mind" so that when he drops from the sky, it's a shock, despite him still being a regular character. But who knows, maybe people already knew he was coming back from hell - I didn't watch the show then. I also think, hokey or not, it's pretty in character for Buffy. He was the love of her life, and she lost him - it's only natural that she would daydream about them being together, and of course the fact that she was the one who killed him lends a guilty theme to some of the dreams.
In "Anne" we see worried friends doing their best to understand and move forward while they worry about their friend. Giles is predictably obsessed with finding Buffy and her mother is both in turn worried and furious. All of this is very much in character. The near one-eighty we get in "DMP" after Buffy returns is, as I said, excessive and doesn't really fit into the character portrayal only one episode back.
Ditto. DMP has always felt awkwardly out of character to me. That's an interesting concept, to stretch the passive aggressiveness for several episodes. As I mentioned, I didn't like the passive aggressiveness to begin with, but maybe if they'd been less over the top about it, it would've seemed more natural. The abrupt resolution reminds me of the quick turn around in "When She Was Bad" - Buffy is bitchy for an episode, grinds her enemy's bones into dust, and then she's fine. They definitely let conflicts simmer longer in later seasons - although you could say they let them go TOO long in season 6, so maybe they still lack a balance.
I disagree. I think the big party was because the gang was still uncomfortable around Buffy, and they thought that a quiet dinner would be too awkward.
Xander: And what'll we talk about at a gathering anyway? 'So, Buffy, did you meet any nice pimps on your travels? And oh, by the by, thanks for ruining our lives for the past three months.'
Willow: Xander...
Xander: You know what I mean. She doesn't want to talk about it, we don't want to talk about it, so why don't we just shut up and dance?
Willow also explicitly calls it a "welcome home dinner," not a party, which indicates that she knew what type of evening Joyce was planning. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, a dinner implies someone is cooking a meal - something that requires planning and an accurate number of attendees - and it's incredibly rude invite a bajillion people without telling the host. Granted, Oz may not have realized that when he asked whether it was a gathering, shindig, or hootenanny, but I think it's clear that Willow (and possibly Xander) at least knew, and deliberately sabotaged the evening to avoid having to talk to Buffy. Giles is also pretty complicit, as he knows what Joyce was thinking, but lets himself be persuaded by a bunch of teenagers with no manners, probably because he also finds it awkward to be around Buffy.
Giles: Uh, I-I'm not sure that, a, a, um... shindig...
Oz: Hootenanny.
Giles: H-hootenanny i-i-is really the order of the day. Uh, uh, it should... Maybe something a little more intimate. I-I-I mean, Buffy has just got home. I'm, I'm sure she's still feeling a little disoriented.
And this willful ignorance is only emphasized at the party when Willow pretends she can't hear Buffy, and Xander and Cordelia spend the whole time making out rather than talking to Buffy. That was one thing that really bugged me about this episode, Willow and Xander's behavior has always disgusted me. I get that they're angry and were worried about Buffy while she was missing, but there are appropriate ways to express anger and worry, and this passive aggressive shit is completely ridiculous. I don't think it shows a "darker nature," I think it's just teenage brattiness and bitchiness.
Is Superman a secret? Hell no.
Uh... isn't that what the whole "double life" thing is about? People may know Superman, but they don't know that he and Clark Kent are the same person. But unless Buffy's going to wear a spandex suit as the Slayer and wear glasses as Buffy, I don't see how they could make the Slayer public without giving away Buffy's identity.
The only way I can think Buffy's identity being known could hurt her is that most demons don't need an invite to break into a home. Also, vamps could just set fire to her house.
That's only the supernatural threat. What about humans? You don't think people would be freaked out by a superpowered girl? You don't think there would be people (the Initiative?) who would want to study her, experiment on her? I'm sure if the Slayer was public, there'd be people who thought she was a danger or a threat to humans, just like in the comics, and who would probably try to lock her up. There's also the chance that people will think she (and the Watcher's Council) is crazy and have her institutionalized (again).
I thought the dream-foreshadowing with Angel was a bit hokey, but it wasn't terrible. They had to get the actor some scenes in there some how.
I think the dreams were meant to throw people off - it would be a huge giveaway that Angel was coming back with David Boreanaz in the credits, since we know he's in hell. I think putting in the dream sequences lulls us into a false sense of "oh, he's not coming back, except in Buffy's mind" so that when he drops from the sky, it's a shock, despite him still being a regular character. But who knows, maybe people already knew he was coming back from hell - I didn't watch the show then. I also think, hokey or not, it's pretty in character for Buffy. He was the love of her life, and she lost him - it's only natural that she would daydream about them being together, and of course the fact that she was the one who killed him lends a guilty theme to some of the dreams.
In "Anne" we see worried friends doing their best to understand and move forward while they worry about their friend. Giles is predictably obsessed with finding Buffy and her mother is both in turn worried and furious. All of this is very much in character. The near one-eighty we get in "DMP" after Buffy returns is, as I said, excessive and doesn't really fit into the character portrayal only one episode back.
Ditto. DMP has always felt awkwardly out of character to me. That's an interesting concept, to stretch the passive aggressiveness for several episodes. As I mentioned, I didn't like the passive aggressiveness to begin with, but maybe if they'd been less over the top about it, it would've seemed more natural. The abrupt resolution reminds me of the quick turn around in "When She Was Bad" - Buffy is bitchy for an episode, grinds her enemy's bones into dust, and then she's fine. They definitely let conflicts simmer longer in later seasons - although you could say they let them go TOO long in season 6, so maybe they still lack a balance.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 23 2008 07:20 pm #18Spikez_tart
People may know Superman, but they don't know that he and Clark Kent are the same person. - True - I meant that everyone knows that Superman exists. At least, that's what I think I meant. Having a senior moment.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Since the major season arcs are laid out in the first episode and second is usually acts as additional season arc intent – from "Anne" and DMP what themes did you see presented in these two first episodes"
The major themes, I think we can all agree on, were:
- Choices
- Acceptance of your role, either for good or bad
- The conclusion of Buffy-Angel Romance
- discord the is coming into the Scoobies
- competitive struggles & power plays
- betrayal of trust – particularly of adult in the series
- secrets and not speaking of "truths" between friends, parents, and lovers
- emotional vulnerabilities
- Angel’s resurrection i.e., mask that will bring back the dead
The other themes that I think are presented are:
In the discussions of the season, how do these themes play out?
What other themes do you think should be added to the list?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Do you really think that Angel was dead? I believe Buffy thought so, but a sword to the chest never killed a vampire as far as I know. He was sent to Hell and then he was brought back, if he was dead, then Buffy would also be dead in Anne.
and Xander and Cordelia spend the whole time making out rather than talking to Buffy.
When watching the episode, it was actually Buffy who tried to avoid talking to Xander, and Xander was the one who noticed her and talked to her, not the other way around. I do get why Buffy wanted to talk to Willow instead of Xander. Willow was more sympathatic to Buffy's feelings towards Angel. I do believe that Willow felt bad for ignoring Buffy, which was why she went to Buffy's room looking for her.
and Xander and Cordelia spend the whole time making out rather than talking to Buffy.
When watching the episode, it was actually Buffy who tried to avoid talking to Xander, and Xander was the one who noticed her and talked to her, not the other way around. I do get why Buffy wanted to talk to Willow instead of Xander. Willow was more sympathatic to Buffy's feelings towards Angel. I do believe that Willow felt bad for ignoring Buffy, which was why she went to Buffy's room looking for her.
Mar 24 2008 02:53 am #21Spikez_tart
Did anyone else feel an incredible surge of happiness when Pat’s neck got snapped? Yes! Also, loved the Giles turns to Ripper moments when he hotwires his own car and later threatens (without saying so) to beat the crap out of Snyder.
Other themes
Baby boomers are bad (yes, the truth hurts).
Technology and Big Institutions are bad:
Thinks of all the teachers, scientists, doctors, etc., that are either bad or get killed:
Xander’s bio teacher (killed by the Praying Mantis woman)
Buffy’s teacher who doesn’t think she’s a little felon
Ms. Calendar
Principal Flutie, Principal Snyder, the Swimming Coach, the School Nurse, the Cafeteria woman who tries to poison the students, the Teacher in Only Have Eyes and the Janitor
The Mayor
The hospital where kids get killed, the high school, City government, sometimes the police
Dr. Ben
Maggie Walsh and her doctor buddy
The archeologist who digs up Acathla
The volcanologist that Faith kills
The zookeeper who unleashes the hyenas
The teacher who gives the students eggs to take care of
Warren
Quentin Travers and other members of the Council, Mrs. Post, Sirk (from Angel)
Their creations are also frequently bad or dangerous – Adam, Robot April, Ted, Forrest
Principal Wood isn’t bad, but he is dangerous and sneaky.
Season 4 is a head banger between Science and Magic. Ultimately Technology is exposed as hubristic and dangerous and Magic is shown as powerful, communal and also dangerous.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Do you really think that Angel was dead? I believe Buffy thought so, but a sword to the chest never killed a vampire as far as I know. He was sent to Hell and then he was brought back, if he was dead, then Buffy would also be dead in Anne.
It's hard for me to say, since like I said, I didn't watch the show when it was on, which pretty much spoiled Angel's return, but dead or not, I thought the viewers were supposed to think Angel wasn't coming back from hell.
Baby boomers are bad (yes, the truth hurts)
I dunno, I think if you counted up all of the high school/college students who were evil or got killed, you'd come up with an equal or even higher number. I don't think it's about baby boomers, per se, I think it's just that most people on Buffy are either evil or end up dead.
I will agree with you on the technology=bad thing, though.
It's hard for me to say, since like I said, I didn't watch the show when it was on, which pretty much spoiled Angel's return, but dead or not, I thought the viewers were supposed to think Angel wasn't coming back from hell.
Baby boomers are bad (yes, the truth hurts)
I dunno, I think if you counted up all of the high school/college students who were evil or got killed, you'd come up with an equal or even higher number. I don't think it's about baby boomers, per se, I think it's just that most people on Buffy are either evil or end up dead.
I will agree with you on the technology=bad thing, though.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Angel’s resurrection i.e., mask that will bring back the dead
On my list, I intended to reference Angel's return - Angel/Angelus is considered to be dead , thus we have the mask as a foreshadow of Angel's return -
On my list, I intended to reference Angel's return - Angel/Angelus is considered to be dead , thus we have the mask as a foreshadow of Angel's return -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 24 2008 10:54 pm #24Guest
Guest
After Angel is returned and sometimes after that, everyone refers to Buffy stabbing Angel and sending him to Hell as "killed Angel". At this point we kind of have a reason behind other stuff, like zombies or vampires don't really die and Buffy gets the common CPR to bring her back, so at that point I believe sending someone to Hell, you wouldn't expect there to be a possible way to bring them back. Hell, not a hell dimension, is how they tell the story of where Acathla opens up to, and the great mythical Hell is a place for the dead. It's not like a spell or something they understand brings Angel back, either divine intervention or the First Evil intervention did it.
Mar 24 2008 11:59 pm #25Guest
Guest
'Course, later, Angel says he was 100 years in a Hell dimension. A dimension that could have been like Q'uortoth and only openable a certain way, like Sahjahn having to rip into it instead of just making a portal.
Angel might as well be dead to Buffy because she wouldn't know how to get him out, but he's not dead-dust. Sword through the chest just hurts, doesn't kill. Showing up where she leaves the ring - coincidental, or aimed by the releaser? Probably not coincidental from the writer's point of view... I happen to side with the Powers brining him back here. I think the First takes the opportunity that he's close to Buffy to try to get Buffy dead. But It didn't care about Angel either way, really. (You know..... mythically, I think the First's strength was always tied to the Slayer power....seems that way in retrospect, eh?)
It always seemed dumb to me that they still referred to it as "killing" Angel after they (Buffy) know he's back and where he was, etc. Buffy screams that she killed him in that argument in Season 7. Um, no, you *didn't*, girlie, you just sent him to *prison*. Stopped Angelus, hurt Angel, stabbed Angel, ran Angel through......all more appropriate language. She *sent* him, not killed him.
CM
Angel might as well be dead to Buffy because she wouldn't know how to get him out, but he's not dead-dust. Sword through the chest just hurts, doesn't kill. Showing up where she leaves the ring - coincidental, or aimed by the releaser? Probably not coincidental from the writer's point of view... I happen to side with the Powers brining him back here. I think the First takes the opportunity that he's close to Buffy to try to get Buffy dead. But It didn't care about Angel either way, really. (You know..... mythically, I think the First's strength was always tied to the Slayer power....seems that way in retrospect, eh?)
It always seemed dumb to me that they still referred to it as "killing" Angel after they (Buffy) know he's back and where he was, etc. Buffy screams that she killed him in that argument in Season 7. Um, no, you *didn't*, girlie, you just sent him to *prison*. Stopped Angelus, hurt Angel, stabbed Angel, ran Angel through......all more appropriate language. She *sent* him, not killed him.
CM
Mar 25 2008 12:03 am #26Guest
Guest
In season 7 Buffy was talking about what she had to go through, that she had to make the decision to kill Angelus and build herself up to carry out her duty with Xander harsh and not understanding aboutit, and she had believed she had sent him to Hell, never to return, so in effect killing him. Buffy didn't know he was going to come back, so when she did it, she thought she was killing him. Now Xander is asking for an exception for Anya when she's killing but demanded Buffy kill her own love before that when Angel started killing again. Too, it's been mentioned that Angel was brought back at the time most painful and confusing for Buffy, throwing her off balance, just when she's leaving the ring behidn and letting go of Angel and all that happened, so it sounds evil or like horribly painful Fate.
Yeah, I would agree with Guest. Regardless of what Buffy actually physically did to him, she thought she was killing him. She had been building herself up all season to the point where she was able to kill him, going into the final fight she was mentally preparing herself to sacrifice any chance of getting Angel back in order to save the world, and when she plunged the sword into his chest, she thought she was losing him forever. And emotionally, that's something that has stayed with her for the rest of the show. Even though he wasn't dead per se, even though he came back, to her it felt like she killed him - and when she says it, either to Angel himself or in the argument with Xander, it's not about physical death, it's about the decision to kill him, her willingness to do it, and her belief (however temporary, but permanently scarring) that she had killed him.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 25 2008 02:04 am #28Spikez_tart
Aside from the plot necessity of the thing, why does Buffy ram that sword thru Angel? We know that Angel's blood is necessary to close Acathla, but how much blood did it take? He opened it with a smear of blood on his hand. Okay, if he'd still been evil, she would have needed to shove him in the portal to get rid of Angelus, but she knows that he's been re-ensouled, so there's no need.
I agree that Buffy thinks she killed Angel and persists right to the end, even tho it makes no sense.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I think it only takes a little bit of blood to open something like that, but the thing keeps growing, so then it ends up taking more blood to close it. Or, like with Dawn, the portal closes when the blood flows no more.
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Under the conditions, emotional and physical, Buffy was not in the frame of mind to be logical or to take a chance with the vortex - plus, not the point of the season finale -
Even worse than Angel's death is Not Angel's death - Giles states clearly that the Acathla Vortex is a portal to a demon dimension - the purpose of Acathla was to send the humans into a realm where they would experience horrendous tortures and pain. I suspect that Angel/Angelus in that demon dimension suffered only because he was en-souled again and at the hands of his fellow demons.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Why don't we continue with the chronological order but do two episodes at once - Unless the members want to skip Faith, which I would hate to do - but I will go with what the majority wants.
Next two would be:
1. Faith, Hope, and Trick
2. Beauty and the Beasts - this is the return of Angel episode
We could also, for a break, do a couple of the dreamscape episode which, if I have it right, are always Joss episodes until we get to the later seasons.
Next two would be:
1. Faith, Hope, and Trick
2. Beauty and the Beasts - this is the return of Angel episode
We could also, for a break, do a couple of the dreamscape episode which, if I have it right, are always Joss episodes until we get to the later seasons.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 25 2008 05:08 pm #32Guest
Guest
I think Faith is very important, but more for what she becomes and what that represents. the first few episodes with her also have a bunch of episodes when she's just not hanging around, like her coming wasn't important. Later on I think we should definitely do Faith, especially with how much I love seeing her and the Mayor together, but I don't know if we need her introduction as the slutty new Slayer in town who almost had a breakdown over Kakistos, then she goes back to being a slutty slacker who barely shows up to patrol.
nmcil, are you suggesting we discuss every episode? Because I thought we had decided waaaay back at the beginning not to do that, and a list was posted earlier in this thread of all the ones from this season we were going to do, and neither FHaT or BatB was on there, the next one being Revelations, which I think is a much more interesting Faith episode than the first one.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 26 2008 02:10 am #34Spikez_tart
Angel/Angelus in that demon dimension suffered only because he was en-souled again - Wow, that's a kinky twist I hadn't thought of - yes, he would be getting his butt kicked on a regular basis in a demon dimension being tainted with a nasty old soul.
Which brings up a question. Shouldn't all those hundreds of years in Hell burn off some of the bad karma he racked up over the centuries? Doesn't seem that it did. So, does punishment not count towards forgiveness/redemption? Or is it only sincere repentance, sacrifice and good deeds? Might explain why some people - Willow, for example - gets away with double homicide because -- she's sorry.
(I watched Faith Trick Hope last night. I love Mr. Trick - I was LMAO. Too bad they got rid of him so soon. I suppose the most important aspect of the episode is Buffy pretty much immediately taking a dislike to Faith. Even more than she did with She-Giles Kendra.)
Which brings up a question. Shouldn't all those hundreds of years in Hell burn off some of the bad karma he racked up over the centuries? Doesn't seem that it did. So, does punishment not count towards forgiveness/redemption? Or is it only sincere repentance, sacrifice and good deeds? Might explain why some people - Willow, for example - gets away with double homicide because -- she's sorry.
(I watched Faith Trick Hope last night. I love Mr. Trick - I was LMAO. Too bad they got rid of him so soon. I suppose the most important aspect of the episode is Buffy pretty much immediately taking a dislike to Faith. Even more than she did with She-Giles Kendra.)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 26 2008 02:18 am #35Guest
Guest
Maybe the 100 years convinced Angel he deserved the punishment and pain even more. Or, maybe he had to become so ruthless just to survive (which, since he was animalistic when he showed up...) that he felt losing the humanity he had managed to gain taints him even further. But whatever the cause of him going feral, his head's messed up in a significant way.....all the way to when Cordy and Doyle and Wes get him to start joining the world.
CM
CM
nmcil, are you suggesting we discuss every episode? Because I thought we had decided waaaay back at the beginning not to do that, and a list was posted earlier in this thread of all the ones from this season we were going to do, and neither FHaT or BatB was on there, the next one being Revelations, which I think is a much more interesting Faith episode than the first one.
I will go with whatever the majority wants - right now there are two lists with the difference being these episodes are not on both -
Band Candy
Doppelgangland
Consequences (suggestion to combine this with Bad Girls)
Prom (suggestion to combine with Enemies)
Which should we go with?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Well, here's my thoughts. Band Candy is a maybe - I think it's mostly just a fun ep, but others might find themes in it, with taking responsibility and whatnot. I don't think Doppelgangland merits a discussion unless we want to get into a character study of Willow. I like the idea of combining Bad Girls and Consequences, but I don't really see any connection between Enemies and The Prom. I'm all for combining episodes for discussion, but only if they actually relate to each other. I would leave The Prom off altogether, since the plot is pretty straightforward (and, um, lame) and it doesn't really do a whole lot to advance the season arc, except for Angel dumping Buffy, which he's gonna do again in Graduation Day anyway, so we can talk about it then.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Watched "DMP" again and the points made about lack of communications - not wanting to talk - made in the earlier post were excellent. It had been a very long time since I watched this one. Especially with Angel with coming back soon, and Buffy keeping him a secret, the "not talking" becomes really important. One thing that I liked was how both Joyce's anger and resentment, almost a betrayed by Giles, and her real introduction to Buffy's Slayer duties were treated. Joyce really sees for the first time the reality of Buffy as The Slayer. Willow and her future resentment, that will eventually bring us "Something Blue" was, IMO, introduced in this episode The ending of the episode does have Buffy and Willow back together talking, but what we see in DMP is a Willow that wants to talk about her own troubles. And while that is not a bad thing, in the context of Buffy's terrible experiences with Angel, it does come off a little self-centered. All these little "no talks" eventually turned into huge problems later on.
With Xander, "DMP" also introduced again his character's basic trait of stepping up and helping in the good fight - later in "The Zeppo" he also finds his own "inner hero" and stands only on his own quality. I also think that Xander's vehement defense of Joyce is more of speaking of his own emotions and distress. Will all these anger and resentment, which is very common, all those people and strangers make the perfect cover. No Talking and Secrets & Betrayals come right back and bite willow and Xander in their ever loving little butts. Cordelia is almost killed from the coming betrayal of Xander and Oz, probably the kindest and most wonderful male in the entire series will find betrayal as well. Spike will come in find a wonderful mother figure in Joyce and will start the "nails on the coffin" for Buffy and Angel and their "we are and can live as only friends."
This entire season shows so much of the potential for "evil deeds" and "inner demons" - Adults will betray their children just as Friends and Lovers will betray each other - Still, at the end of the be chaos of the party, what we see is Scoobies, each and every one of them, fighting together as a team - and how I loved seeing Joyce right in there with them.
Had to love Cordelia and her "your a freak so naturally you choose a freak for a boy friend." (paraphrase)
With Xander, "DMP" also introduced again his character's basic trait of stepping up and helping in the good fight - later in "The Zeppo" he also finds his own "inner hero" and stands only on his own quality. I also think that Xander's vehement defense of Joyce is more of speaking of his own emotions and distress. Will all these anger and resentment, which is very common, all those people and strangers make the perfect cover. No Talking and Secrets & Betrayals come right back and bite willow and Xander in their ever loving little butts. Cordelia is almost killed from the coming betrayal of Xander and Oz, probably the kindest and most wonderful male in the entire series will find betrayal as well. Spike will come in find a wonderful mother figure in Joyce and will start the "nails on the coffin" for Buffy and Angel and their "we are and can live as only friends."
This entire season shows so much of the potential for "evil deeds" and "inner demons" - Adults will betray their children just as Friends and Lovers will betray each other - Still, at the end of the be chaos of the party, what we see is Scoobies, each and every one of them, fighting together as a team - and how I loved seeing Joyce right in there with them.
Had to love Cordelia and her "your a freak so naturally you choose a freak for a boy friend." (paraphrase)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
While I agree that The Prom is a little lame, I'm extremely fond of it. Maybe because my prom sucked, and it's nice to see that Buffy's didn't.
Mar 27 2008 12:00 am #40Guest
Guest
Homecoming, the prom, and pangs, all make me think of the same thing: weak stories that involve ObsessedBuffy trying to make it better by comedy but not quite working out. The prom was one I didn't really enjoy because it felt like a cliche, not like a stereotype or an issue in general being addressed or put into literal terms. Wow, this one guy wants revenge on people because he can't get a date, and Buffy wants normal and is hurt so she goes a little schizo.
I would suggest:
Band Candy
Helpless
Bad Girl + Consequences
Graduation 1+2
Maybe Revelations for what it shows in the group dynamic by the intervention, Giles, Faith being shown why she can't trust anyone, Angel, and the first Buffy-Faith fight
I would suggest:
Band Candy
Helpless
Bad Girl + Consequences
Graduation 1+2
Maybe Revelations for what it shows in the group dynamic by the intervention, Giles, Faith being shown why she can't trust anyone, Angel, and the first Buffy-Faith fight
Shall we go with "Band Candy" - It is a good combination of use of humor and the adults, plus we can see how the season themes are playing out in an episode that has a more unusual treatment
We can start "Revelations" on the weekend or combine both episodes - I will start the topic for BC now and if someone wants to go immediately into "Revelations" they can start a topic also.
We can start "Revelations" on the weekend or combine both episodes - I will start the topic for BC now and if someone wants to go immediately into "Revelations" they can start a topic also.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
:-P
:love
:wah:
:(
:drugs:
:um:
:getwriting:
:tsk:
:buhbye:
:coffeelove:
:eatme:
:smooch:
:kiss:
:heartfic:
:shrug:
:sigh:
:drink:
:goodevil:
:what:
:evil:
:hyper:
:lol:
:reading:
:readporn:
:up:
:hand:
:down:
:hurl:
:wave:
:vampire:
:moon:
:D
:boohoo:
:tongue:
:shake:
:lurk:
:happy:
:announce:
:stupid:
:grr:
:)
:wazzup:
:right:
:insane:
:crap:
:poke:
:stalker:
:taped:
:grrarg:
:throughpc:
:fic:
:halo:
:help:
:clap:
:eyebrows:
:bday:
:dance:
:needsmut:
:lash:
:neener:
:bow:
:wall:
:spank:
:butthead:
:hair:
:suck:
:get:
:spuffy:
:soon:
:vamps:
;-)
;)
:-(
:P
:O
:-O
:-D
:blush:
:-)
:cheer:
:sleep:
:pigsfly: