BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Episode Talks - Revelations

Mar 31 2008 09:34 am   #1nmcil

this is the next episode - it has been a very long time since I saw this episode - hope that we can get more people in on the discussion for this one -  should be great to watch again.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 01 2008 05:35 am   #2BloodStainedSnow
In the middle of watching it, and I'm just going to throw some stuff out there about the "intervention."  I get that they're all worried about what Angel's return might mean and that they're upset that Buffy kept it a secret.  However, they don't take the time to see it from Buffy's perspective.  With her kissing him--if the guy you loved completely came back from a hell dimension, it's natural to think that old feelings are going to be bubbling on the surface. 

Xander's holier-than-thou attitude really grates me, especially when he's cheating on Cordy with Willow.  His Miss Calendar comment is a low blow.  It was tough for her to come to terms w/ killing her lover, but she proved she could do it.

I'd say Giles has the most right to be on the attack, with the torture and killing of his girlfriend, but because of that, I can see why Buffy would be hesitant to speak up.

Just a few quick thoughts :)
Apr 01 2008 05:46 am   #3Legen
i think that had we not all been on the "slayers can do no wrong" boat, we might have seen the red flag that was faith jumping all over buffy being evil and wanting to stop her. on that same note, it probly wouldn't have hurt so much that buffy was hiding angel, but again, blinded by the supposed perfection. everyone is so hurt by the fact that she was hiding him, and so mad, but their anger was the exact reason she hid him, imo. buffy knew that the scoobies would not be happy about his return and probly shun him, as well as, her own confused feelings about him. just cause she's the slayer didn't mean she wasn't still a child. and kids make mistakes. i don't think they were helping her any by getting all pissed off about it. later on they always wonder why she always takes everything on herself, and very personally, but this is a classic example as to them closing her off and forcing her to be that ever strong always right person.
i thought that the evil watcher was great and didn't see it coming AT ALL. that was awesome and it makes you wonder about all the other watchers. giles was the ripper originally and here's an evil one, they let just about anybody in that club that can look good in a tweed jacket.
hindsight is 20/20 they say, and looking back, it was super easy to see faith's turn to the dark side. now that i know what to look for, there really were alot of warning signs both from faith just being who she was and how she was raised and from the slightly impenetrable click the scoobies had going. it takes alot to be able to join that club and as much as they had the whole "group of outcasts" thing going for them, she just didn't fit.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 01 2008 05:53 am   #4Legen
the hipocrisy and double standards through out the ENTIRE show always grated my cheese till it was parmasaen powder, man. they changed the rules from one season to the next, but the stuff that happened right on top of each other was what was the worst. case in point.

Xander's holier-than-thou attitude really grates me, especially when he's cheating on Cordy with Willow
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 01 2008 06:23 am   #5BloodStainedSnow
hindsight is 20/20 they say, and looking back, it was super easy to see faith's turn to the dark side

I agree.  The Scoobies defintely had an exclusive thing going for them, which is why I think Faith followed Post so easily.  Here was someone who seemed to really care about Faith, who she was, and what she could be.  The reveal of her real intentions helped shatter whatever trust Faith had in ppl.  It also didn't help that Buffy had lied to her friends about Angel.  Faith probably thought if Buffy would lie to the ppl closest to her, what would keep her from lying to Faith?
Apr 01 2008 07:23 am   #6nmcil
One thing for sure is how all these hidden affairs and secrets will come back and bite them all on their arse and heart.  Especially sorry for Giles and Buffy and  how this theme of betrayal will come back again in "Helpless."  I do think that Giles was right in saying that Buffy showed not respect for him and his status as her watcher; but how tragic that she will have even more reason to feel betrayed by him.   While Buffy, is acting out on her continued love and confusion for Angel, the adults are, IMO, play an even greater role in betrayal of their positions.  Gwendolyn betrays her duty as The Watcher and Angel, I think, betrays his responsibility as the responsible adult.  Even with all the Angelus tragedy he still places Buffy and himself in extremely vulnerable circumstances - training with Buffy, shirtless, and then moving on to embrace her.  What possible excuse could he have for his conduct?  Not only is he placing them in a very vulnerable position, but it is the youngster that seems to be showing the control instead of the adult.  I like how the characters are wearing symbols of oriental and Hindu characters that are associated with self-awareness and control.  The very exercises that Angel and Buffy are doing are meant to teach control and focus - something that is certainly in question.  

Control and Consequences of Choice and Secrets all at play in Sunnydale and the world of the Scoobies.  

One thing that I really disliked was the ending of this episode - but it fits into the context of the coming season.  Sweeping away all those bad feelings and secrets with their simple "all is fine again," is so wrong.  Things are not "all good" when the hypocrisy of Xander and his anger and hatred of Angel is still so alive plus Willow's betrayal of Oz and Xander's of Cordelia is all being hidden or glossed over.   As much as Xander's  first reactions to Angel are proven wrong, one can't help but understand all the anger and sense of betrayl that all the characters feel about Buffy's keeping his return a secret.   Why and how Angel is returned is a complete unknown at this point -

Gwendolyn Post was a wonderful character and as powerful as she was, Wesley will be just the opposite -  and poor Faith is so lost.  Interesting how the last scene with Buffy and Faith is costumed - Buffy is made to look like a little goody gum drop girl and Faith is all  like the Bad Girl.  I thought it was so sad to hear Faith repeat the description of Spartan which she learned from Mrs. Post.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 01 2008 08:01 am   #7Legen
Sweeping away all those bad feelings and secrets with their simple "all is fine again," is so wrong. Things are not "all good"
it's almost unbelievable how they all remain friends with all the bad blood between these people. they are constantly betraying and undercutting each other, but nobody says anything about it, well except maybe spike, but that comes later. there have been times, watching this show i've been like "i would totally ditch my friends if they did that kind of crap...THAT many times"
and on a side note from an eps. waaay down the road, in selfless, when their arguing and its brought up about what xander told buffy that willow said. i thought that was gonna be a blow out, that FINALLY, things were going to be said that should have been said years ago. but true to buffy form they brushed it under the rug. they do it all the time. sometimes, everything is NOT ok, but buffyverse characters seem to be blind to that. very frustrating
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 01 2008 01:33 pm   #8SpikeHot
I think it just means that their friendship is stronger than we give them credit for. Yes, they fight, betray, lie to each other a lot, but in the end, they stick around for each other. All that crap doesn't break them from each other, and that's amazing. Yes, Xander hates Angel and Buffy's relationship with him, but Buffy is still his best friend and he'll never leave her side. Willow dislikes Xander's girlfriends but she still sticks by him. I can say I wasn't fond of some of my friends' partners, that didn't affect my friendship with my friends.

I understand the Scoobys anger to Buffy hidning Angel, won't you feel the same way if you were in their place? If we can cut Buffy some slack for messing up, we should cut the Scoobys some slack as well. After all, Angelus tried to kill all of them, minus Cordy and Oz as far as I remember. When Xander found Buffy with Angel, she was kissing him for God's sake, what had cast Angel's soul away? Wasn't it getting a happy from Buffy? That was reckless of her, and I understand why it made Xander upset.

Sweeping the problems under a rug, I thought it was realistically done. As well as easier. Buffy understood her friends' anger and they understood why she had done what she did, why dwell more on it? Willow already jumped to support Buffy and Angel after she was saved by Angel. Xander, if I remember correctly, will help Buffy save Angel in Amends and admit to being a lousy friend when it comes to Buffy's relationship with Angel.
Apr 01 2008 06:05 pm   #9nmcil
Sweeping away all those bad feelings and secrets with their simple "all is fine again," is so wrong. Things are not "all good"

It is a realistic representation of how the Scooby friendships work and how real deep friendships and love work in the real world.  Oz and Cordelia are the prime examples of this; Oz needs distance and time to digest his feelings and understanding of the experience, Cordelia also needs the time, but in her relationship Xander is not the man that she shares a deep and lasting love with.   We all learn the "easier" to forget and forgive method, it's what we all do if a relationship is important to us.  The only problem with that is that this way of dealing with the can eventually all explode - which does eventually happens with all these characters.  

How much is Willow's locker scene really about "understanding" and how much is based on her own guilt and need?   I would suggest that Willow's "understanding" and "acceptance" of Buffy and her Angel secret is still very much that of a naive young woman (rightly so as high school is treated as a huge right of passage in the series)  her dialogue is still all wrapped up in girlish terms and her own confusion of the emotions that she discovers in herself.  Willow, IMO, is the sub-text of what will be the conclusion of the season, Angel and Buffy finally understanding that "they can't have it all" - sometimes, and many times, love is not enough.  It was completely unrealistic to think that she and Angel could ever exist in a platonic friendship - neither character has the training and transcendence that comes from highly evolved mental disciplines to be "just friends" but they do achieve the transcendence that comes from their individual move through the rite of passage in "Graduation."  

It is a wonderful play on contrasts how Buffy always pushes Angel away in their tempting sexual encounters and how Angel will be the one to leave for LA  - (fun to see how Lagos also suggests "goes to LA).  The metaphor of Angel finding The Glove and how both he and Buffy find their own inner power is effectively depicted in their hand holding which reflects the visual design of The Glove. 

Glad that we went with "Revelations" as part of our episodes to discuss, it was great to see it again and from the perspective of knowing what is coming in the entire season and series.

I understand the Scoobys anger to Buffy hidning Angel, won't you feel the same way if you were in their place?

I do think that it is completely understandable that The Scoobies and Giles would be very angry and hurt that Buffy kept his return a secret.  It  is also interesting how Giles is shown connecting Angel and Angelus as the same entity.  Is this the first time that he clearly states that for him Angel is responsible for actions of Angelus?  This is one of series statements that  tend to be extremely confusing, especially with the depths to which Buffy will take her love of Angel.  

How are we to interpret or understand Buffy's attachment to Angel and "unconditional love?"  that is such an interesting question.  Buffy will in turn forgive Giles his sins and betrayals from his part in her 18th birthday trials - rites of passage trials which were common in many warrior societies.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 02 2008 12:03 am   #10Eowyn315
With her kissing him--if the guy you loved completely came back from a hell dimension, it's natural to think that old feelings are going to be bubbling on the surface.
I think that's exactly what they're afraid of - that the old feelings are going to come back, and Buffy and Angel are going to get back together. Remember, it was them sleeping together that brought Angelus out in the first place - and it was her friends (mostly Giles) who paid for it. I don't blame them at all for being worried about that happening again, and being angry at Buffy for potentially putting their lives in jeopardy by resuming a relationship with Angel. It's not just that Angel's back, and that Buffy didn't tell them, although they're certainly mad about that - but I think the part that seems most careless of Buffy is that she'd allow herself to slip back into complacency, kissing Angel, when she knows what that could lead to.

It is also interesting how Giles is shown connecting Angel and Angelus as the same entity. Is this the first time that he clearly states that for him Angel is responsible for actions of Angelus?
I don't think this is surprising, regardless of how we (or Giles) view the soul. Whether Angel is responsible for Angelus' actions or not, he's still wearing the face of a murderer. Even if he believed they weren't the same person, I don't know how Giles could look at Angel and NOT see the vampire who tortured him and killed Jenny. It took Buffy half a season to get herself in the frame of mind where she could kill Angelus, to where she could finally look at him and not think of him as her boyfriend. I would expect it to take just as long for Giles to make the reverse adjustment.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 02 2008 12:25 am   #11Izzy
One thing that seemed strange to me when I was watching the episode, was how the 'intervention' was set up. Buffy had a problem, she needed help, only use "I" statements...  Angel is not an addiction or a physical craving (at least the way interventions would be able to deal with). Why couldn't they just get together to talk about Buffy's decision, vent their own feelings on the subject, and try to come to an understanding? Did they expect Buffy to admit she was overcome because Angel is her 'drug' and she needed their help to show her how to think and support her in shutting off her feelings?

The Third Season isn't my favorite, so I don't know it as well as I do some others, but I've noticed that Angel and Buffy never deal with each other like friends. They silently train as fighters and clearly show the physical attraction between them, they awkwardly talk a few times, most of their dialogue dramatic stuff about their doomed romance, and they aren't comfortable or easy together in any way, even when Angel is giving Buffy her birthday present, which shows he doesn't know her very well. I think Buffy is clinging to her idea of a forever love and Angel being her soulmate even when it's clear they are growing apart, if they were ever close beyond the mysterious first love, because she didn't kill him in time to save Ms Calendar. Buffy spent the whole time in LA dwelling on how much she missed him and her pain over killing him and putting aside everything else in her past life. I think she built it up into a 'forever' thing to help justify why she couldn't kill him right away, Jenny died, and that their loving each other and sleeping together being the cause wasn't wrong. If she admits they weren't complete soulmates, then it's like it cheapens what she felt before and she didn't have a reason to be too hurt to allow Jenny to die or to run away after she sent Angel to hell.

Apr 02 2008 03:33 am   #12Spikez_tart
Xander's holier-than-thou attitude really grates me - what was surprising to me in this and some of the earlier episodes is the incredible anger that bursts out of Xander.  His character is usually presented as laughing and making corny jokes and popping the bubble of the pompous.  Here, he is furious.  He's angry at Buffy, jealous and furious at himself all at the same time. 

I love Mrs. Post, she's just so awful.  So many of the Council members are bad - Quentin Travers, that Watcher guy he brings to town with him, Wesley's father, the members of the Wet Works Team, the Sirk guy on Angel.  Wesley starts out pretty bad, too, but straightens up after he's been separated from them for a while.  Also, his hottie quotient is upped on Angel. 

Willow's locker talk with Oz - Willow is so immature and thoughtless.  It's not that she's selfish so much, but self centered.  Me me me, not you you you. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 02 2008 05:14 am   #13nmcil
Izzy -

Excellent points you make - having watched this again it really clarified for me one of the things that I disliked so very much with Buffy and her Angel relationship - I Hate for any woman to be made this vulnerable - be she young high school Buffy or any real world woman.   From my perspective, the real power for a woman is when she can let any man go and can see her life as separate from her male lover, husband, or friends.  This is not to suggest that being a part of a relationship is not a beautiful and powerful experience, and one of the most important of life.  But Buffy, IMO, became so invested in this relationship that it made her weak. 

So here is a question about this relationship - Outside of the metaphor of learning lives hard lessons and learning that within you is the power to make the choices that will bring you a balanced and full life - what do you think that Joss Whedon was trying to say with the Buffy-Angel relationship?  Is Angel/Angelus the fundamental metaphor for High School life and all the emotional trauma that most teens lived through in this stage of their life?  Was Angel the visualization of the entire high school experience for teens? 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 02 2008 10:09 am   #14Guest
what do you think that Joss Whedon was trying to say with the Buffy-Angel relationship?
maybe it was not so much a high school metaphor, but more of a men can turn into jerks thing. instead of the jerk being all the same guy and you never know which one you'll get, he completely separated the two entities into angel and angelus, which i'm sure just about every female has experienced a guy that started out sweet as can be, or an angel, and then after they get what they want, sex, they turn into an ass. although, i don't know any girls that had to kill the guy after words.
Apr 02 2008 01:54 pm   #15SpikeHot
This episode shows that the Scoobys didn't accept Angel back with open arms, it was easier on Willow to do so, because of her peaceful nature. Others were still angry and wounded from what Angelus had done to accept him back easily.

Something that broke my heart while watching was Faith feeling like an outsider. I wish to see Amends just for Buffy inviting Faith to spend Christmas with her and Joyce.
Apr 02 2008 05:14 pm   #16nmcil
Even if he believed they weren't the same person, I don't know how Giles could look at Angel and NOT see the vampire who tortured him and killed Jenny

I liked how this torture and killer plot is repeated, but as contrast, with Faith and Wesley - instead of Angel/Angelus we have Faith as becoming the monster within.

Something that broke my heart while watching was Faith feeling like an outsider. I wish to see Amends just for Buffy inviting Faith to spend Christmas with her and Joyce.

You can't help feel sorry for Faith and her lousy life, her talk with Buffy about how she understands and accepts men in her life now was also very sad, how she calls herself a magnet for losers (paraphrase) - It is easy to understand how Faith falls into all the darkness - life has shown her only bitterness.  Look how she knew right away that Buffy's invitation for Christmas was a Joyce idea not one that came initially from Buffy.  Fact is I feel a great deal of sorrow for Faith and all her bad choices, in some respect, it is Faith whose story makes the more powerful statement of life in the series - how many millions of children have been lost from having lousy parents who either don't give a damn about their kids or who make so many terrible judgements about them.   Parents can really create monsters from their children, just like in "Gingerbread" all that innocence within children can be destroyed by what parents do.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 02 2008 06:57 pm   #17Legen
Parents can really create monsters from their children, just like in "Gingerbread" all that innocence within children can be destroyed by what parents do.
so tru, so tru.
it is Faith whose story makes the more powerful statement of life in the series
i always liked faith way better then buffy, faith was more down to earth, and just way cooler in general. she saw the way the world really is, and was down with it. viva la faith!!
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 03 2008 02:36 am   #18Spikez_tart
It is easy to understand how Faith falls into all the darkness

I thought the Faith going totally bad didn't make all that much sense.  You can easily see her pushing the good/bad line, but it didn't make sense to me that she gets po'd by the Scoobies and then immediately runs to be the hireling of the Big Bad Mayor.  Also, don't really see her being anybody's lacky. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 03 2008 02:58 am   #19SpikeHot
I think it has more to do with Faith needing to belong. She didn't feel like she belonged with Buffy and her friends, the Mayor seemed to accept her more. And Faith never really switched sides until she killed.
Apr 03 2008 03:13 am   #20BloodStainedSnow
And Faith never really switched sides until she killed.

I think that was the breaking point for her.  If she had dealt with Finch's murder and let the others help her, I think things would have gone differently.  Of course, it didn't help that Wesley was trying to ship her off to England or that she probably didn't see the intentions of the Scoobies as being completely sincere.
Apr 03 2008 03:36 am   #21nmcil
I thought the Faith going totally bad didn't make all that much sense. You can easily see her pushing the good/bad line, but it didn't make sense to me that she gets po'd by the Scoobies and then immediately runs to be the hireling of the Big Bad Mayor. Also, don't really see her being anybody's lacky.

Faith, and the irony of her name,  brings her to Sunnydale having lost all faith in people and men.  Not only people - and having The Mayor be the one person that she does turn to is a great connection back to her talk with Buffy about all the lousy relationship that she had as a young girl.  Faith arrived in Sunnydale already damaged and needing to belong as a "good" thing in some one's life.  Her jealousy of Buffy only brings up how frustrated and how out of control she felt about her life.  Just because she took on the "tough girl" persona did not make her in control - it's like mainly all she did was act tough as a reaction not as the starting point.   And while it is not particularly comfortable, she and Buffy end up working from the  same darkness.  Both of these Slayers went to some really dark places this season - and while it is very easy to call and see Faith as the Total Bad Girl Killer, Buffy allowed herself to go into a very dark place as well.   I think it was Izzy that mention something about the Scooby intervention and Angel being like a drug for Buffy - the events in Graduation surrounding Angel's cure, can IMO, been seen as her fall into if not an addiction, into such extreme needs and passion, that she is living in utter chaos.  If there is one thing in the entire series when I see Buffy fall into the category of "evil"  even more than the horrendous beating that she gives Spike in the alley, is her attempted murder of Faith. 

I don't mean to excuse Faith, after all we make our choice in the paths we take - but I can feel sympathy and sorrow for the woman she became - it's always easier to be good and successful when there are people helping you along the way - and I am very happy that the character was taken on a path that did allow her to change her course. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 03 2008 03:49 am   #22Legen
I am very happy that the character was taken on a path that did allow her to change her course
in all the character development, and all the people that had to attone for their pasts, i think that faith made the best...i don't know if recovery is the right word. but she came the farthest. spike came along way, but he had people help him become evil(dru, angelus, darla), but he also had a reason to become good(buffy, even if she didn't want to be that reason). faith had a great deal of stuff to help her fall to the dark side(and i say dark side and not evil, cause she was never really evil, just confused and misplaced) but she also didn't really have anyone to help her come back to being good. angel did for a minute on buffy, but that was more FOR buffy then for faith, and he was still all messed up at the time. he did come through for her on angel(that's like one of my fav sences when buffy's all indignate and angel's all like"this is my town and i make the rules so f*** off) but of everybody, faith made the most headway on her own. she came to terms with her demons with only a fraction of the help and motivation that many of the others in the series' had. the show trys to be all **buffy buffy buffy** but i think faith is the real hero, and even more of a real world hero. someone way more people can relate to.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 03 2008 04:22 am   #23Guest
Spike always felt more like Faith than like Buffy to me. Faith was extremely vulnerable and hopeful of belonging and being cared for or needed, but experience taught her to be tough and bad-a** but didn't take away her feelings, just tried to cover for them. Buffy, on the other hand, was far less approachable and tried to cut herself off from pain and feeling and be grown-up. I know a lot of Spuffy shippers hated the scene between Spike and Faith in Season 7, but I thought it was great and worked really well-- they would have been great friends and fun to watch together, if not boyfriend-girlfriend.

For Faith going "evil" I don't know why she would approach the mayor when all they know is that he's the bad guy. She doesn't have a relationship with him yet, know what he's like, or have any reason to think the evil guy with monsters working for him would let her feel like she belonged. After though, the mayor mentions killing Willow and Faith stops dead and stares at him; she's not totally given over to evil. The mayor then says he wouldn't ask her to do it herself, not so early in the relationship... then tells her he got her a Playstation. But the kindness and belonging he offers her is her more immediate concern and she is young and hurting and just doesn't focus on the bad. I think the good guys treatment of Faith and disgust and contempt and patronizing about her being weak enough or rotten or twisted enough to be turned aside in the first place did more damage and made her feel she had to choose to be bad. I think she was irresponsible and hurting and trying to be selfish, but she was a teenager! She was extremely loyal to the mayor-- she wasn't interested in hurting people just to see them hurt (not including enjoying a fight, which is more about the adrenaline and stuff inside than harming another if you ask me) or in destroying the world or doing evil deeds. 
The biggest similarity between her and Spike I see is that both of them are more interested with the freedom than with the evil. Faith wants something, rules can't hold her back, someone gets in her way, she moves them, and she doesn't have to feel all the awful emotions like shame and guilt and self-hatred cuz she's bad, so she can push them away! After Faith got to LA on the show Angel, she doesn't go out to do evil. She parties and gets into fights during it, and just tries to live it up without tying herself down or facing the awful feelings from looking at what she's done from a good guy's perspective.   Sorry for ranting, but I loved Faith and it annoys me when people act like she deserves the holier-than-thou treatment by everyone else.
Apr 03 2008 04:40 am   #24Legen
For Faith going "evil" I don't know why she would approach the mayor when all they know is that he's the bad guy.
i think maybe it was her way of sticking it to the scoobies, and him being a bad buy was coinsidence. she wanted to say "see me, i don't need you guys to complete me. i can do my own thing and be just fine!!" which she kinda wasn't, but still she wanted to try and show that she could. and that even though the scoobies didn't want her, there was at least one person(the mayor, person used lightly) that did.
are more interested with the freedom than with the evil.
and that is so true. every body thought buffy had gone bad when she started living it up like faith, when she wasn't bad, she was just following her own set of rules. it's way easier to be bad then it is to be good. and more often then not, way more fun.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 03 2008 11:21 pm   #25Guest
Being a bit of a nerd, but Legen's last remark made me think of Harry Potter when Dumbledor says, "The time will come when you have to make the choice between what is right and what is easy" (warning: paraphrase) It's so much easier to be selfish, but Faith tried to be bad and ended up getting stuck in a mold and still trying to fit a stereotype or follow the rules of being bad, like not relying on anyone after the mayor died. It's sad how she just couldn't win.
Apr 04 2008 01:49 am   #26nmcil
From my perspective Spike represented what engage my  heart and mind with this series.  He and Faith are the real world metaphor of the struggle people have to make in their individual lives.  The both  serve as the model for the dynamics that would make all our world a better place to live.  Like these characters, if mankind can over come or control their primal urge for violence and hatred and selfish concerns for The Self and The Tribe, then like Spike, humankind will also find or make a soul that will pay homage and understand the great wonder of this planet and their own existence.  

The Buffy-Angel-Forever is child's play in comparison to the theme of The Journey, exemplified by Spike,  that must be made in order to  find the human face that can embrace the world and people beyond an immediate circle.  Buffy is the metaphor for the myth but Spike, IMO, is the metaphor for real life.

It was a subtle moment when Spike in Angel Season 5 fully comes to his realization as a fully developed man - when he tells himself that he wants to fight for another outside of it being something that Buffy would want.  He works from this center in season 7, but he finally speaks it to himself, or affirms it again, in that episode of the Fred/Illyria arc.- I think it is the "Shells" or "Hole In The World" -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 04 2008 03:02 am   #27Spikez_tart
Guest - I loved the Spike and Faith scene in S7.  I also loved how pissed off Buffy got when she saw Faith sharing a fag with Spike.  Gives you hope that Buffy hasn't completely cut off Spike's balls.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 04 2008 04:28 pm   #28nmcil
are more interested with the freedom than with the evil.

Good Line - especially when you contrast this with how Buffy often reacted to being The Slayer, trapped by her duties - but even being that fantasized "normal" she would have been restricted and fallen into "the ordinary."  Faith and Spike did like the freedom that living outside of the cultural rules and demands, and Buffy had a rude awakening to just what being a helpless "normal" girl might be like.  And while she did defeat her enemies in the 18th year birthday trials, I don't think she would have liked going back into that "normal" mold.   No question whatever that it was extreme for her to be The Slayer, but she also had so many great things that came with her powers and duty. 

In many respects, a lot of Buffy's personal problems came from her not accepting all of her nature and finding a way to understand both her faces and making a life with both her light and dark sides.  Buffy could be the biggest bitch and wrapped it all up in her "righteous duty ribbon" box.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 04 2008 11:22 pm   #29Spikez_tart
Buffy had a rude awakening - she had another rude awakening when she tried life the Faith way, living outside the rules in Bad Girls.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 05 2008 12:06 am   #30Guest
I don't think how Faith behaved had anything to do with what happened in Bad Girls. There is teh slight difference that they would not have been in that alley at all if they went back to the library for back-up, but something similar could easily happen at another time or place. It wasn't Faith's free spirit or disrespect for rules that got Finch killed-- it was just instinct and being the Slayer in the middle of a dark alley fighting a bunch of vamps rushing at you. AFterwards, though, it annoyed me how Buffy tried to make herself as unlike Faith as possible. It was like she didn't want to become like her, so she denied the darkness in her or tried to push it awy or tried to be 'normal' and whiny and coy and sweet college-girl or... I never felt like she did more than acknowledge darkness could exist in her for the entire series after Bad Girls. It wasn't fair. The only time she sort of tries to show it was when she made the chose to kill Faith to save Angel and dressed up and got ready for the showdown. Even then it was more about hate and revenge and not caring about right than freedom. Faith wasn't at fault and I hate when people make her out to be bringing Buffy into evil, than just showing her how to... well, not unwind, but relax and live life to the fullest.
Apr 05 2008 10:25 am   #31Legen
here, here.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 05 2008 12:05 pm   #32nmcil
she made the chose to kill Faith to save Angel

This action from Buffy is the great "low point" in the entire series for their  - not only did the writers have this attempted murder but the character is then never faced with any consequences from this deed.  We all know of course that the plot and story arc required that Buffy take on the role of self-sacrifice, but for some reason it was suppose to be an worthy and acceptable moral choice to offer Faith as sacrifice for his cure.   The ethics of that choice for their model of "the white hats" and the character from whom the entire foundation of "the good guys" was set is in total contradiction.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 06 2008 07:52 pm   #33Guest
It looks like this thread is winding down, tho there were some great points. What episode was planned to be next?  I think it was Helpless, and then Bad Girls + Consequences.