BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Loving Buffy

Apr 17 2008 01:44 pm   #1Guest
I was arguing with this one Bangel on another site, who says she believes that Spike doesn't love Buffy. So I'm just wondering what everybody thought was the moments it's most obvious that Spike loved Buffy?
Apr 17 2008 02:19 pm   #2TammyDevil666
Not thinking Buffy ever loved Spike, that at least makes sense, but I don't know how anyone can think that Spike never loved Buffy after all he did for her.  Even a Bangel can't be that much in denial, he did far more for her than anyone else did.  I think the time that proves it the most for me is when he got beat up by Glory and never revealed Dawn's identity.  That's when he really changed to me, I started to see him in a new light.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Apr 17 2008 02:39 pm   #3JoJoBird
Some bangels must have stopped whatching after s3 or whatched some all together diffrent show called Buffy, or their all hopeless romantics and i mean HOPELESS, since their perfectly capable of ignoring years up on years of build up between buffy and spike.
If she ever ended up with Angel  soley based up on her past relationship with him, i would have to insists on the writers to go and have their heads checked.  Or maybe the bangel love was supposed to be as supernatural and other worldly as the characters themselves.. itd be ludicrus of the writers to write buffy forever being 'in love' with angel without a good reason. Like their souls were twittering about in the ether millennia ago and then were separated or something. (ha ha)
I really hope if she doesnt end up with Spike that she ends up with some Joe normal.. Honestly to me it seems like Buffy and Angel just go through the motions when they do run in to eachother, kiss cose their supposed to.. or its what they used to do.. and hes supposed to ask to be with her and shes supposed to want to.

For me the 'without a doubt' moment was when she was driven away from her home in s7, Spike comes to find her and delivers his speech on how he loves her. I cried like a baby.
(Me with all my dad/man issues and difficulties in life, that scene just really spoke to me and I feel a bit in love with Spike then and there.. the speech actually touched up on my own scars and i just wanted to snog him so badly!!!! lol )

Ugghhh *shivers* i ran in to bangels at tv.com, their posetively militant and snowed in on s 1-3, really they use s1-3 as proof that itll always be angel.
I mean all respect to whatever shipper you are, but we can not disregard years of a show in order to validate our shippers.
They alsow seem to be arguing weather she loved Angel more then Spike, as if love doesnt seem more intence when ure 16.. you love unhinderd at that age, untainted by life and heartbreak. Even I still remember the love i had at 16.. and sometimes i wonder, but im 27 and i would never.

 Anyways im so not in this argument :P lol

I dont know if a person is unable to see Spikes love for buffy, then i dont think any argument will make them see. If your incapable of picking up on it whatching the show.. then i dont think you ever will. Some people must whatch with blinders on though. Militant people are scary.
Apr 17 2008 06:41 pm   #4EMM
This might be wrong, but I believe most B/Aers are about twelve years old. Or at least believe that tall, dark and hansome qualify as true love.

I remember getting into a little disagreement over this and the girl said something to the effect of: Spike didn't have a soul so he did the right thing and Angel ALWAYS did the right thing.

And I replied, "So, I suppose that locking a bunch of lawyers in a office to get eaten. Never seeking redemption until there was a sixteen year old girl involved, and allowing an entire hotel to be massacred because they hurt his feelings is ALWAYS the right thing."

They honestly don't watch the show or 'forgive' Angel. Spike's love for Buffy was evident in every episode from Intervention on. You don't keep a promise to a dead woman if you didn't love her. I also think it was more than apparent that in Season 3 Angel was in love with Cordelia. I hated how they handled her death is season 5. It was a beautiful episode, but no one really was torn apart by it for longer than the three seconds they gave it at the end.

Apr 17 2008 07:22 pm   #5Scarlet Ibis
I agree with Tammy.  Clearly these people aren't sane, so why bother?  Spike was a lot of things, some of them bad, but to say that he wasn't capable of love in his soulless state and that he didn't love Buffy is retarded.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 17 2008 07:46 pm   #6Guest
I sometimes think of most B/A's as twelve, but than I come across other that are in their twenties and thirties. One of the militant ones is a 27 year old male, which kind of baffled me.
Apr 17 2008 08:00 pm   #7Eowyn315
Oh, man. If I had a nickel for every thread on this forum that started with, "I was arguing with a Bangel fan and..." lol

To be honest, although I disagree, I can understand why a Bangel fan would say Spike never loved Buffy. It's the same reason Buffy herself refused to believe Spike loved her: Spike didn't have a soul.

When Angel didn't have a soul, he didn't love Buffy. Ergo, either the soul allows him to love, or there's something wrong with the Buffy/Angel relationship. A Bangel shipper is obviously not going to choose the latter, so they insist that you need a soul to love. It's not hard to say that Spike lusted after Buffy and thus all the things he did for her were merely to get in her pants (Angel pretty much says the same thing). At some point (and it's debatable whether that point is Intervention, The Gift, someplace in season six, or any other time), that argument becomes ridiculous to Spuffy shippers, but we're seeing things through a different lens.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 17 2008 08:59 pm   #8Scarlet Ibis
But...can't get into someone's pants if they're dead for six months.  Spike stayed after her death cause he loved her.  I mean, he had no reason to believe she was coming back.  And Angel and his soul/unsouled self shouldn't set the standard for all vamps.  They're been many vamps in the Buffy-verse who aren't Spike that prove that you don't need a soul to love.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 17 2008 09:11 pm   #9Guest
Bangel's called Spike and Drusilla's relationship obsession. Along with Darla's feelings for Angelus. And James and Elizabeth. Don't know how they explain Harmony though, being the same vapid, self interesting person she always was.
Apr 17 2008 09:29 pm   #10EMM
A mutual obsession doesn't make you cut out your heart because you can't even fathom the thought of living without a loved one. I believe Angel even acknowledged James and Elizabeth's attachment to one another. The Judge found humanity and Spike and Dru, but none in Angel... or Angelus, whatever.


 


Apr 17 2008 10:20 pm   #11ya_lublyu_tebya

But...can't get into someone's pants if they're dead for six months.

I'm with Scarlet. If he didn't really love her, there's no way he would have stayed around while she was dead. He did it because he loved her and he'd made a promise to her.

Garhh, Bangel shippers. I admit that there was a time when I thought Bangel was kinda sweet (about six years ago, when I started watching Buffy) but after a while, all the 'woe-is-me I can't love you properly because I'm trying to redeem my soul' stuff got a bit old. The fact is, Angel left, Spike stayed.

Apr 18 2008 12:35 am   #12pfeifferpack

I had this argument years ago n the Bronze with a Spike hater (that's what she is by her own admission...she had a twist to every action and word from Spike to show evil intent all based on Angel saying to kill her you have to love her and SPike supposedly running with that.  Some was pure nutz........when JM went to Angel the series she even slipped and was ranting that now JM would go and steal Angels show!....duh....fictional character vs real....um....in the fiction there was no show for SPIKE to steal so I think some of her issues were about JM).  Point...you can't win these arguments, cannot be done because they are more blind than Giles.
 

For me Iwas always struck by how he NEVER killed her even when he could (come on.....Joyce and the ace stopped him??????  He could have wrenched the axe away, killed Joyce and then Buffy!).  There was attraction from the start IMHO.  The love was hinted for a long time but I knew it was more than attraction and respect for certain when he let Glory torture him.  He had NO way of knowing that Buffy and company would rush in or ever know he had kept silent.  For all he knew he would die there and no one would ever know (Yeah Xander had been in the cave when the minions came in but was unconscious when they took Spike).  No chance of reward there from his view just as that summer there was no chance for profit for him either.  That was love on top of the long term attraction, lust and grudging respect.

I know many a Bangel who are adults but I think that "love story" much touch a part of them that still lives in the rose colored world of High School where "soul mates" (I don't think they were BTW) love 4 eva!  That's fairy tale stuff.  We leave high school, we grow up, we change and mature and (it is hoped in a couple) we grow together....divorce rates prove that this isn't always the case in GOOD circumstance!  Buffy never saw the real Angel (what would her reaction be to many of his choices in LA???  Even season 1 of Angel???...I KNOW she would not approve and the eppy with Faith hinted at that strongly).  Angel in turn never really knew Buffy...he had her on a pedastal as the pure innocent Slayer, a young sweet girl he had to guide and teach (but not often actually figth alongside....drop warnings and stan back more like).  The strong opinionated sexual woman she became would have offended and horrified him.  Had he stayed they would have parted in time.

Don't even try to argue it won't work.....the Bangel ship is one idiolized and best seen through rose colored glasses and you have better luck proving to Don Quixote that his dragons are really windmills!    To attack that ship is to attack their own longings and desires for prince charming to sweep Cinderella off to his kingdom and live happily ever after.

Also...go back to season1 and season2 pre Angelus (do it with transcripts or watch one after the other) and actually single out their "love story" moments....not much there.  The week before her "I love Angel" moment when she discovered he was a vampire...she was looking for a new boyfriend, Owen and blowing off Angel as a guy that was vaguely annoying with his popping in and out on her!  It came from out of nowhere just like the fairy tale it was!

Kathleen

Apr 18 2008 02:02 am   #13LindsayH
I thought Spike loved Buffy when he showed up to help her in "Becoming Part II."  Of course, about thirty minutes later I was reconsidering that idea, but it turns out me and Dru were riding the same wavelength.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Apr 18 2008 08:13 pm   #14Guest
I could see the attraction, and as a viewer of the show I thought they were setting thigns up for the possibility of Buffy and Spike getting together or Spike falling for her from when Angelus came back all the way to Lover's Walk. But I thought Spike had finally arrived at having feelings for her, emotions and not just lust or attraction, was in Harsh Light of Day, after she runs out on Parker, and Spike has the perfect look and tone and is so not like any vampire even as they exchange blows, when he says,  "Maybe I dumped her!"
Apr 18 2008 08:22 pm   #15Guest
There was so little to the love story before Angel lost his soul, it felt like afterwards Buffy was trying to justify how she let Miss Calendar die and ran away because it hurt so much by making it the perfect, soul-mate love and holding to it. The first time Buffy tells Angel she loves him is in LTM, when all they've done is have I think one, maybe two episodes of hot make-out sessions and a bunch with five minute cameos of fairy-tale mystery together, when she asks him about the vampire (Dru) he was talking to earlier and instead of answering he tells her some lies are neccessary, then asks if she loves him. Yeah, that isn't manipulative of like black-mail!

I always hated the shrine they had Spike build for Buffy in S5. I just didn't think it was at all like him, and it was way creepy and no wonder it freaked Buffy out. I liked how Spike fought the attraction he felt to her, having to deal with her and situations that proved to him slowly, with the people watching the TV, that he did really love her and it wasn't lust alone.  Of course, then they had the S6 arc of violent sex and tried to make Spike a total bastard, without showing any reasons or the softer side or him showing hurt that might make him act that way as a defense. It was like they shoved him back into an unhealthy obsession again, and forgot the love that had really become as Buffy was dead and was in the first few episodes before they slept together.
Apr 19 2008 02:09 am   #16Immortal Beloved
But...can't get into someone's pants if they're dead for six months.

Well, you could, but it'd be kinda gross :-P

Personally, the thought of Bangel never did it for me.  I always felt that Angel loved something else--be it himself, his redemption, or his role as a champion--more than he loved Buffy.  Angel did love Buffy, but it wasn't enough for him.  Spike, on the other hand, loved nothing and no one more than he loved Buffy.  Personally, I've never had a discussion with a Bangel (the entire conversation would seem rather pointless to me), but to say that Spike didn't love Buffy is absurd.  If I'm a die hard, dyed-in-the-wool Spuffy, and I can at least admit that Angel loved Buffy, then I don't see how an equally devoted Bangel could deny Spike's love for her.  Unless, of course, the only way that she or he could support their Bangel shippership is to completely negate the validity of the Spuffy relationship.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Apr 19 2008 02:28 am   #17Guest
I've actually come across a Bangel that said that Spike falling in love with Spuffy was 'jumping the shark'.
Apr 19 2008 06:16 am   #18Eowyn315
it turns out me and Dru were riding the same wavelength.
Does that... worry you at all? :-P
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 19 2008 09:19 pm   #19Immortal Beloved
Of course, about thirty minutes later I was reconsidering that idea, but it turns out me and Dru were riding the same wavelength.

Does that... worry you at all? :-P

hehehesnort :lol:

Actually, I think you're right.  Even if Spike wasn't completely in love with Buffy at that point, he was at least intrigued with her.  It's his hesitation before leaving with the unconscious Dru: "God, he's going to kill her."  Of couse, then he shrugs in an oh-well way and leaves :-P  But he does hesitate.  It's as if, for a breif moment, he contemplates if he should help Buffy kill Angel(us) before Angel(us) kills her.  He quickly decides against it 'cause he's already gotten what he thinks he wants--Drusilla--but he's forgetting one other thing that he used to want.  He used to want to kill Buffy, and now he doesn't.  It's very telling of the fact that something inside of Spike has changed, and we all know that Spike doesn't change easily.  He's a tenacious little bastard when he wants something, and he only changes his course when his desire changes.  The Slayer of Slayers gives up on actively wanting Buffy dead, and there has to be something, maybe the beginnings of love, that has changed.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Apr 19 2008 10:02 pm   #20Eowyn315
That is interesting - and also interesting that when he comes back in Lovers' Walk, he really has no interest in killing Buffy then, either.

But then in s4, when he gets the Gem of Amara and when he breaks out of the Initiative, both times his immediate instinct is to go after Buffy, so I don't know. Has the desire to kill her come back? Or is he now only going after her because he feels like he ought to be going after her?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 19 2008 10:20 pm   #21pfeifferpack
I watch that fight in Harsh Light of Day and notice that Spike was winning in spades but never did the kill...THEN he deliberately says the very words to reignite the fire and fight in Buffy...hardly the actions of a long lived intelligent vampire who has the Slayer on the ropes!  No...he wanted the fight, the contact but no interest in the kill (although he was still telling himself that as a reason for seeking her out).  He lost that ring too easily too as all it would have taken would be to clench his fist to keep the ring on his finger. 

As for his breakout from the Initiative....he is still thinking in terms of the Slayer and Council being the only threat against his kind thus somehow THEY are behind that lab.  He even said it while locked up...he hasn't thought about a new player at all yet.  Still not motivated by a desire to kill her, merely anger and outrage that she may not have played fair.

ITA with the idea that something fundamental changed as he contemplated helping her against Angelus before he took Dru away.  He didn't even want to stay and watch....his view of the girl was different.

Kathleen
Apr 19 2008 10:40 pm   #22Quark
Spike was winning in spades but never did the kill...THEN he deliberately says the very words to reignite the fire and fight in Buffy...hardly the actions of a long lived intelligent vampire who has the Slayer on the ropes! No...he wanted the fight, the contact but no interest in the kill (although he was still telling himself that as a reason for seeking her out). He lost that ring too easily too as all it would have taken would be to clench his fist to keep the ring on his finger.

This along with the slapstick humor role they had the Spike character filling in season four is one of my biggest irritants when watching that season.  S2 & S3 Spike is someone that even Angel feared with the whole "everyone and everything in his path," speech, plus he had Buffy at his mercy more than once, didn't kill her yet retained at least the image of being intelligent and ruthless.  Why the bumbling-vampire routine in S4 when they already had a funny man - Xander - and a truth sayer - Anya?

I always hated the shrine they had Spike build for Buffy in S5. I just didn't think it was at all like him, and it was way creepy and no wonder it freaked Buffy out.

When I watched those episodes I assumed it was the creators pulling from some of the vampire mythos that already existed - vampires as obsessive creatures, prone to stalking and OCD behaviors, in addition to playing up the whole animal/predator/demon angle with all the scenting and marking of territory cliche.  In a normal human situation - definitely on the creepy side.
~ Q
Apr 19 2008 11:20 pm   #23Scarlet Ibis
On Spike wanting to kill her...

In season two, he wanted to kill her because she was a slayer.  Season three, he wanted revenge on Angel, and hurting Buffy didn't even come to his mind.  Season four, he was trying to kill her to prove to Dru (and himself) that he had no feelings for her.  Spike, who isn't afraid of hand to hand combat (in fact, he relishes it), gets the Gem of Amarra to prolong the fight IMHO, and consequently prolongs his stay in Sunnydale.  The rush he gets in fighting is the not knowing of who will be the winner.  Witht he gem, he could clearly be the winner if he really wanted, but I think he just wanted to extend the dance.  Fighting her in the sunlight (her element) was probably a bonus. 

And then there's the whole saving her people and boosting their self esteem thing (Giles and Willow.  Really, he could steal money from people, which he demonstrates to Anya in "Where the Wild Things Are," so there's no real reason to help Giles in his demon state.  In fact, he could have killed him if he really desired to do so.  And then after not so successfully biting Willow, he gives her this pep talk in how desirable she is).  Okay, that was clearly a tangent.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 20 2008 12:09 am   #24Eowyn315
Well, if Spike had remained intelligent and ruthless (and still using those things for evil), Buffy probably would have had to kill him, and if she didn't, we'd be asking why she was so ineffective. It's only acceptable that Buffy give him a pass if he's harmless. Personally, I think they should've had Spike fall in love with Buffy sooner - it's not like the groundwork wasn't there, and at least then he'd have a reason to hang around and help. He wouldn't have to be bumbling (he was quite capable when he was helping in late season 5), and Buffy would be less likely to kill him if he was helping.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 20 2008 12:58 am   #25Immortal Beloved
Season four, he was trying to kill her to prove to Dru (and himself) that he had no feelings for her.

Ditto.  He goes after Buffy 'cause he's trying to convince himself that he's not covered in the sunshine as Drusilla told him.  Remember that Dru told him she knew about his feelings for Buffy after Dru hooked up with the chaos demon.  That was before "Lovers Walk."  Then, she cheats on him again with the fungus demon before he returns in "Harsh Light of Day."  Drusilla knows he's got something subconcious going on for Buffy, but Spike has a denial that could rival Buffy's :-P  Something else the two have in common.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Apr 20 2008 01:09 am   #26Quark
Well, if Spike had remained intelligent and ruthless (and still using those things for evil), Buffy probably would have had to kill him, and if she didn't, we'd be asking why she was so ineffective.

True.  But I still would have liked to see the character evolve instead of the opposite.  He was practically a different vampire.

Personally, I think they should've had Spike fall in love with Buffy sooner -

I agree.  I think it would have been more in character, especially if they portrayed him morally ambiguous with some subtle undermining throughout each episode (Like "Doomed" and "The Yoko Factor" ) bringing it all to a point around the beginning of season five giving the audience both the big confrontation/reveal and plenty of drama fodder for the rest of the season.

Ah, hindsight.

Er, to drag this thread back to the original topic, I think the moment it became obvious that Spike loved Buffy, not just lusted after her, was the end of "Fool For Love" during the porch scene.  As a counterpoint I think Buffy realized she might actually think of him as something of a potential friend and not just a reluctant ally during that scene as well.  'Course Spike screwed that up rather royally in "Crush."  It's my opinion there was an undercurrent of lust from moment one.  Whether intentioned by the creators of the show or not it is what came across on screen in every scene between them.
~ Q
Apr 20 2008 03:00 am   #27goldenusagi
Why DID Spike come back in Lover's Walk?  Dru had just left him for the chaos demon, as he tells Willow.  When he first gets into town, he watches Angel, but only after nearly catching on fire does he decide he needs to do something.  He goes to the magic shop to get something to get back at Angel, and only then gets the idea of making Dru love him again.

It seems at first like he wanted to torment and/or get even with Angel for taking Dru away from him, yet he had no idea if Angel(us), or Buffy either, for that matter, was still alive (except for the fact that the world didn't end, so if he had to guess, Buffy would be alive).  We also know from FFL that Dru hadn't said anything (on camera) about Angel, but went on about about Spike being covered with the Slayer.  But he didn't come back to do anything about Buffy or Angel, just to mope around.

Eh, maybe he just needed a visit to the good ole Hellmouth....  :)
Apr 20 2008 04:20 am   #28Guest
On the commentary for Fool for Love, Petrie mentions the last flashback with Dru as just before Spike came back to Sunnydale for good, and like the reason for it all. I think it was meant to be just before the HLoD, not Lover's Walk, but the writers goofed about the fungus demon because the joke about the chaos demon being all slime and antlers was too good.

How the writers changed Spike for season 4 is something that really bothered me. It seemed lazy. I get Spike was meant to be so cool and dangerous and a disposable villain, but with Drusilla, the time in the wheelchair, and Lover's Walk, had already shown him to have real flaws and layers and not the ultimate cool that is so unrealistic and hard to show the character growing or doubting as he goes through stuff. They couldn't bother to come up with something that left him his dignity and all we know about his character already? Instead they made him treat Harmony cruelly, be crude and vicious toward Buffy about her sex life, and go after a magic thing to give him an unfair advantage in a fight... It felt 'off' for the villain Spike was before, and after that last hurrah of evilness that didn't really fit him besides the fun part at the frat party, they then made him a totally different person it seemed. It wasn't like Spike dealing with not knowing his place and struggling, instead it wasn't like Spike at all. Personally, I think the writers who were writing for him then weren't fans of keeping him around or they had a totally different idea of what he should be shown as than some other writers. Even in later seasons it felt like that, that the writers had different ideas about what Spike was like and the details of his feelings with only a vague common thread in his motives.
Yuck, I probably shouldn't have gone on so long,but it really grates my cheese!
Apr 20 2008 04:30 am   #29goldenusagi
Hmm, but on the flashback to Dru and the chaos demon, it says 1998, which would have been in the first part of season 3.  Harsh Light of Day aired in 1999.
Apr 20 2008 05:54 am   #30Eowyn315
Why DID Spike come back in Lover's Walk?
I don't think it had anything to do with Buffy or Angel. The first thing he does is go to the factory and reminisce about the good times he and Dru shared. I think he probably came back to the last place they were happy, maybe to figure out where it all went wrong? He says, "Why did you do it, baby? Why did you leave me? We were happy here." I would guess that his next stop on the "we were happy" tour of Sunnydale was the mansion - and then he saw Angel and realized he was still alive, and we know how it goes from there.

Goldenusagi, you're right about the flashback - regardless of what Petrie said, it was dated sometime between Becoming and Lovers Walk. So really, he knows why Dru left him (since she explained it to him), but it's just not sinking in (partly because he can't acknowledge his feelings for Buffy), so he goes back to Sunnydale to try to figure it out. It's possible it only makes sense if you're crazy stupid drunk and nursing a broken heart, but I think that's why he went back.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 05 2008 09:17 am   #31Guest
Bangel's are very militant with their Spike hate. I just encountered it on tv.com.
May 05 2008 04:54 pm   #32EMM
Yeah, I've encountered that. I find it a little funny, if not close-minded. I am a hardcare Spuffy shipper, but I can at least admit that I like Angel as a character (Hell, I liked Angelus more than I like Angel). Do I believe that he and Buffy  were soul mates? No, in fact, if you watch all the episodes, I really don't believe they knew each other well enough to love one another, but they believe they did. And I can admit that.

But, hey, watch ten minutes of Dawson's Creek and the term "soul mate" loses all appeal anyway.

May 05 2008 09:02 pm   #33Guest
And not even that, they call Spike evil for everything he did without a soul, but absolve Angel because he has one. Well, Spike has a soul now to, so everything should be absolved as well, but some of them claim that doesn't matter. It's very childish how they'll hate the character for being in a couple they don't like.
May 07 2008 04:41 am   #34Spikez_tart
I always hated the shrine they had Spike build for Buffy in S5. I just didn't think it was at all like him, and it was way creepy and no wonder it freaked Buffy out. -  LOL, I loved the shrine - because it was way creepy and it freaked Buffy out. 

Here's two questions -

1, is Drusilla the indicator of where Spike is emotionally, especially when he himself is oblivious? 
2.  Is Spike's relationship with Dawn a foil for what his relationship with Buffy could be like, if she ever let herself go?

Also, I think what fueled Spike's anger in Harsh Light was finding out that she "let Parker take a poke."

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 07 2008 06:19 am   #35Scarlet Ibis
1. is Drusilla the indicator of where Spike is emotionally, especially when he himself is oblivious? 

In what sense? 

2.  Is Spike's relationship with Dawn a foil for what his relationship with Buffy could be like, if she ever let herself go?

Yes and no.  Dawn and Spike had a brother/sister relationship in s5.  In s6, had Buffy not come back, with Dawn demanding everyone realize how much of a child she's not, I think it could have definitely taken a romantic turn.  The thing about Dawn is, she knew exactly what Spike was, and completely accepted him for that.  His short comings, his past indiscretions did not matter to her, so there was an ease in their relationship.  Buffy had too many hang ups, but even if she didn't, and this is why I say "no" to the Spike/Dawn relationship being a foil, is that Buffy still has a superiority complex.  With Spike and Dawn, there was no real superior.  Sure, Spike's older and Dawn's sworn protector and everything, but they had more of an equal footing with one another.  Buffy shuts herself off, and shuts herself down (as she states in "Conversations with Dead People).  Spike, while being physically superior to Dawn, is not all about being alone.  He feels neither superior to Dawn or inferior, as Buffy does with him and her friends.  That particular conflict is not there.

Okay, here's hoping that made an iota of sense :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 07 2008 04:49 pm   #36Guest
I have discussions once in a while now with Bangels or I read some of their comments and find that their views still remain almost 'violent' against Spike.  I was shocked with the rapid romantic development of Buffy and Angel and found the 4evaluv unrealistic and sudden even for a teenage girl.  I guess Bangels live in a rose colored world stuck in S1-S3 and never followed the storyline after that unless Angel was mentioned.  Sham really because they missed so much.

I remember that the male Spike haters wanted Buffy to be with 'the normal guy' Xander and if not him, then Angel.  Their argument was always based on the fact that girls always fall for the 'bad boy'.  These are the same peeps who continuously cried 'rape' and not 'attempted rape' and are still convinced to this day that Spike went to Africa to get the chip out so he could kill Buffy.

Thinking back, the first time I ever went on a discussion forum was right after OMWF.  I was floored by the Spike hate.  I know people have differing opinions but I was shocked at how nasty and vicious Bangels and Spike haters were.  I have always felt that these people went after Spike because he was the only one that threatened their ship.

Shanna
May 07 2008 08:13 pm   #37Eowyn315
1. is Drusilla the indicator of where Spike is emotionally, especially when he himself is oblivious? In what sense?
I would guess in the sense that Drusilla tells Spike things about himself that he doesn't realize - like pointing out his feelings for Buffy way back in South America, when he wouldn't realize it himself until two years later. I can't really think of another example where she does that, though, so I don't know if she's really that much of an indicator or if she just happened to get one right.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 07 2008 11:48 pm   #38Guest
I really like the Dawn-Spike friendship idea and the glimpse of it we had in season six before the writers became afraid Michelle Trachtenberg was too sexy to be in scenes with James as just a little sister character. In season five, though, at first, I think Spike was just treating her alright because she was an extension of Buffy, not for herself, and Dawn wasn't forgiving and compassionate-- she honestly was too immature to fully realize what Spike had been. She thinks of his scary stories as just stories, as that goes great with the treating him as who he is now, not for what he's done in the past, but there is a big difference between a chip and a soul. Being forced not to bite people and understanding and caring for people enough to keep yourself from biting them is a distinction Dawn just didn't get. I loved the friendship b/n them but early season five I didn't think it was perfect.

I've stuck to Spuffy sites, but is it easy to find someone nasty and vicious against Spike? Or are there only a few who are mean and most just don't agree, but the mean ones stand out more? I'm thinking about going to look for them to see what the argument or 'discussion' would be like!
May 08 2008 12:35 am   #39Scarlet Ibis
In season five, though, at first, I think Spike was just treating her alright because she was an extension of Buffy, not for herself, and Dawn wasn't forgiving and compassionate-- she honestly was too immature to fully realize what Spike had been. She thinks of his scary stories as just stories

I'd have to disagree.  If Spike were the only vamp in Sunnydale, I could see that, but Dawns isn't sheltered.  She knows about the monsters of the night, and that her sister doesn't go on nightly walks for kicks.  She perhaps isn't as intimidated as she could be because Spike can't hurt her, but at the same time, I don't think he wants to.  In "I Was Made to Love You," he doesn't give a crap about the Scoobies being mad at him, or Giles, but he does look a bit hurt when Dawn rebuffs him as well.  I don't think it had anything to do with being related to Buffy--just like with Joyce.  He liked them as people.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 08 2008 02:07 am   #40Immortal Beloved
Spike can't hurt her, but at the same time, I don't think he wants to. In "I Was Made to Love You," he doesn't give a crap about the Scoobies being mad at him, or Giles, but he does look a bit hurt when Dawn rebuffs him as well. I don't think it had anything to do with being related to Buffy--just like with Joyce. He liked them as people.

Ditto.  I was just watching "Blood Ties" and "Crush" today.   Dawn and Spike share things in common.  When Dawn hangs out at Spike's crypt, she'd just found out that she wasn't exactly human, and Spike consoles her by saying that he was once human and it wasn't all it's cracked up to be.  Dawn says that she likes how he talks to her like she's an adult who can understand complicated things, unlike everyone else (i.e., the Scoobies) who simply sees her as a child.  Sound familiar?  The Scoobies pretty much treat Spike as though he's a child.  They condescend and treat him like a simpleton, never really seeing the person behind the fangs.  Also, Dawn doesn't always play by the rules, and neither does Spike.  When she sneaks out of the house to break into the Magic Box, Spike is concerned that Buffy wouldn't want her out alone at night, but he also goes along with her for the fun of petty theft.  Maybe the similarities help them to see eachother as they really are instead of how others perceive them to be.  Also, I think Spike admires her chutzpah :-)
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
May 08 2008 04:02 am   #41Guest
I do think earlier in the season, she was crushing on Spike, so her view of him is idealized. Intellectually, she knows that he had to have done bad stuff, because he's a vampire and old, but it's easy for a young girl to not really internalize what a guy is capable of, same as Buffy didn't really grasp what Angel must have been before the soul until Angelus showed her. Now, Spike likes the girl pretty quick, so he's not going to hurt or bite her. But since teens very much live in the "right now", what matters is how he is around her right now, as long as he also doesn't damage her sister enough that she has to pick loyalties. Does Dawn really know Spike until after Buffy's dead and they have more time? Don't think so.

Really miss that they wouldn't let the friendship continue on screen. Such a bogus reason. Marti's a perv.

CM
May 11 2008 06:39 am   #42LindsayH
Of course, about thirty minutes later I was reconsidering that idea, but it turns out me and Dru were riding the same wavelength

Does that... worry you at all? :-P

She may be out of her mind, but then, we have that in common.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'