Sorry--had to post this here because then I would have accidentally hijacked the other thread.

I only have maybe two or three main thoughts about this ep...One, I was happy to see Spike again when this originally aired, and just knew they were going to bring him back as a regular.

This is the first, true deconstruction of the ultra cool, Big Bad Spike.  He's a bumbling, stumbling, drunken fool, utterly broken by the betrayal of his love, Drusilla.  He's weak, kind of whiney, and crying often and in front of others (though, he did get that one good swing on Angel in the magic shop, right?  That was kind of funny).  Also, he's utterly alone, which is a first.  He really does hate being alone (I think).

Buffy making fun of him repeatedly was weird--she really wasn't one to talk.

Also, I had no doubt that the next scene after we saw him at Joyce's door would not involve something violent and bloody.  I'm not sure why, but I just wasn't afraid for her.  Seeing the whole hot cocoa scene was sweet, and seeing the two of them relate to one another was nice, and I wanted more of that.

Oh, and learning that Buffy hadn't told her mom about Angel's return?  Bogus...  And seriously, Angel saw the two of them sitting down, chatting comfortably, and the last time he saw Spike, he was helping Buffy.  Did he really think something bad was going to happen to Joyce?  I love Angel, I do, but serious hero complex issues.  Spike isn't the one to play those head gangs and then sneak up and kill a person.  If he wanted Joyce dead, she would've been so long before Angel arrived.

The whole Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia thing--they were trapped, Oz knew Willow was scared, and Xander's laid out all bloody.  What made Cordelia and Oz not think it wasn't just a one time thing, and just a lapse in judgement in the face of a crisis?  I didn't get that at all... But yeah, when I saw that funeral scene, I did think that they offed Cordelia.  Nice fake out.

ETA: And why didn't Xander just stay?  It wasn't as if she could go anywhere--he should have explained himself and begged for her forgiveness.  I'm sure Cordelia really didn't want to just lay there in the hospital room alone.  Seriously, who else was going to visit her?  Surely not her parents.  Oz, Willow and Buffy were to caught up in their own teenage angst to bother I'm sure.  Maybe Giles or Joyce...but yeah, he should have stayed, and visited everyday and repented.  He quit too easily.  Leaving a thousands voice mails is way lame.

So yeah, there's my insight for the day, lol.

Thanks much for starting the topic - I was keeping track of the political campaign and trying to catch up after my trip of last week - 

And seriously, Angel saw the two of them sitting down, chatting comfortably, and the last time he saw Spike, he was helping Buffy. Did he really think something bad was going to happen to Joyce?

I think that Angel does see Spike as his creation, and knowing that he was the role model for Vamp William-Vamp Spike, plus all their competitive and abusive history, he would first see Spike as a violent threat - How else could he really see him and still maintain his Angel is not Angelus persona?

The whole Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia thing--they were trapped, Oz knew Willow was scared, and Xander's laid out all bloody. What made Cordelia and Oz not think it wasn't just a one time thing, and just a lapse in judgement in the face of a crisis?

I don't think most people seeing their loved ones in that kiss would think of it as a crisis reaction -  nor do I think that the Cordelia at this time in the series has been away from her fall back public identity to react as the very mature and loving adult that would also forgive Xander.  Again, the time involved in this episode, I don't think would have supported any more than the immediate reactions of "feeling betrayed" by the people who were suppose to be in love with them. 

This episode and how OZ responded to  finding Willow and Xander in this intimate moment is one of the reasons that he continued to be one of my most admired characters. OZ is the  hero of the Willow-Xander-Cordelia-Oz "love cycle."  In my opinion OZ is the role model of  a "success"   to the theme of betrayal and actions from both parents and off spring introduced in the earlier episode.   In takes a person of  mature understanding, grace, love, magnanimity, intelligence, and ability to forgive, to place love above anger and feelings of being betrayed to act as OZ does in this arc.  OZ also wears clothing with Oriental symbols, which would be a visual clue to his sophisticated and intellectual-spiritual philosophical system of living in this world - and of course, ultimately he does go to study Eastern Philosophy.

Willow speaks the lessons to be learned when she tells Buffy that "she wanted it all" (paraphrase) - and they all find out that they can't have it all - just like Buffy will also have to ultimately accept - and like Giles learned as well when he almost got Buffy killed in the CoW  test.

My reactions watching this episode first run were very different from the ones I have now.  Watching it cold, when it aired, I was all caught up in seeing Spike again and really gnawing on the angst we were being shoveled over the Willow/Xander interaction.  I was more caught up in watching the acting, the drama and frankly Spike to pay much attention until the end when my brain shuttered to a halt and screamed, "bogus!"

Cordelia Chase was, if nothing else, a total bitch.  She embraced the moniker and made it her own.  No one could do snarky bitchdom like Cordelia Chase (as we would see later when they tried to turn both Spike and Anya into her in various scenes).  As a character she evolved, but always retained a tenacity that we see time and again ( "Homecoming" of course comes to mind) and it is later developed for AtS. The whole running-away-crying scene was a vehicle to move Cordelia out of the series and onto AtS, possibly to pave the way for Anya, even Spike.  I can buy that she felt betrayed, and I can buy that her reaction would have been eruptive but ultimately she wasn't a run-away-crying character, especially where Xander was involved - see all previous episodes to the contrary.  Cordelia was more likely to march across the space and pull Willow away by the hair, or get in her face, especially noticing the bloody paleness of Xander's condition.  Angry, absolutely.  Pissed off to infinity, darn tootin' - but ultimately I don't think Cordelia Chase would have walked (or ran) away without some kind of showdown with the mousy red-head she still felt was beneath her notice and checking on the injured Xander - if only to make sure he was up to a good hard slap in the face.

The only other part that had me screaming foul was the calm acceptance from Oz, and that's just a personal perspective thing because I had a hard time buying a mellow werewolf, at least in that sort of situation.  Oz could be cool, calm and all around mellow any other time than when Willow was in danger.  We saw hints of it, here and there, especially later on in the season, but this was one episode where we should have see Oz showing a bit more reaction.

Couple of little picks - why didn't werewolf Oz pick up on all the extra closeness between Xander and Willow before the night at the factory?  He could smell Willow from presumably several yards from her location (enough to know she was frightened) but he didn't pick up on the extra lust and touching in the weeks prior?  Massive goof and plot snag there, folks.  Also, battle experienced Xander and Willow, teenagers or not, freaking out after being stuck for a couple hours, assuming they'd die and never get out?  Without even looking for an exit?  Stupid much?  Sorry, huge manipulation of the characters there.  Just not swallowing that one. 

Also, very beginning of the episode they are discussing SAT scores - have to point out that American High Schools typically have, at a minimum, two avenues of study - college prep and basic graduation route.  By senior year there is a large divide, usually, between these two groups of students at the subject level because the requirements for graduation aren't as high as college prep.  If Xander was in all the same classes - which were led to believe time and again throughout the series - why are we suddenly given the impression he's Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel?  It was a bit of a stretch in my opinion.  He might just have not tested well, but the whole "dumb Xander" thing really bugged me.  It didn't play along with the rest of the series up to that point, even with the scene from "The Pack" where his trouble with the math is highlighted, and the references to his issues with math from the series opener.  Trouble with math doesn't equal dumb.

Ah, now to the good stuff.  Spike, Spike, Spike.  Wasn't he just perfect in this episode?  Frankly, as much as the character was taffy pulled in later seasons it is refreshing to go back and watch this one just to be reminded why I liked the character so much in season two.  I'm not going to wax poetic for several paragraphs, because it will all read the same.  Instead I'd just like to point out Spike capability of being complex even at this early stage.  He's both ruthless and evil, while being tender and vulnerable as well.  His treatment of Joyce, along with his mocking of Angel was fantastic.  Even his interaction with Buffy was fabulous.  Lots of foreshadowing there.

And finally, Willow's willingness to use magic to fix her personal problems gets its first real spark in this episode and we're also given a glimpse of her willingness to lie about her magic use as well.  I never bought the magic = drugs, uh, stuff we were handed in season six especially because of episodes like this one where we are shown Willow's issues with insecurity, her controlling behaviors, and her arrogance that her decisions are superior to others around her.  I thought it was one of the best parts of her personality, gave her some depth.  Otherwise she was just this super nice *coughboringcough* computer nerd with a willingness to fight the bad guys.

Lots and lots of layers in this episode while still being funny and irreverent.  That is what made BtVS a great series.  After watching this, I kinda miss it being on the air.

I can buy that she felt betrayed, and I can buy that her reaction would have been eruptive but ultimately she wasn't a run-away-crying character, especially where Xander was involved

Not necessarily.  Xander has been portrayed as having this huge thing for super strong hot chicks (slayers), and that was the only real competition that Cordelia thought she had.  Not to mention she loved the boy--she never had a boyfriend where she actually gave two craps about him before Xander.  In fact, I think she actually uses the term BX (before Xander).  To lose the guy she cares about to mousy Willow (in her eyes) is even bigger slap in the face.  She loses to the nice, beige BFF.  Her self esteem took a huge hit there.

freaking out after being stuck for a couple hours, assuming they'd die and never get out?  Without even looking for an exit?

Xander was passed out most of that time, and when he comes to, we see Willow ineffectually pushing against the only door in the room, which Spike took care to lock.

How else could he really see him and still maintain his Angel is not Angelus persona?

Hmm...well, he does admit that the vampire is closely related to the personality of the human in "Dopplegangland," so I don't think it was that.  He knows Spike better than anyone, and I don't think Angel was ever in that much denial.  He knows Spike's soft spots, which is why he goads him later in the magic shop with all of those callous remarks about Dru.  I think apart of him even hates Spike for having them, being soulless and all.  If Angelus had been the same, then perhaps the entire debacle of the year previous, which Spike is the ever loving reminder of in this episode, then perhaps Angel wouldn't have been sent to Hell (well, hell dimension).

One, I was happy to see Spike again when this originally aired, and just knew they were going to bring him back as a regular.
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that this was sort of the "test run" for Spike as a regular, to see how he would fit in with the rest of the characters.

Oh, and learning that Buffy hadn't told her mom about Angel's return? Bogus...
Why is that bogus? She didn't even tell her friends until they figured it out for themselves. Since she and Angel had decided to be just friends, she probably felt her mom didn't need to know. It's not like she expected him to be coming around the house or anything.

Did he really think something bad was going to happen to Joyce?
I think he really did. And I think Angel comes to the worst possible conclusion because it's what he would do. In fact, it's what he did - in "Passion," he tried to convince Joyce to let him into the house, to help him with Buffy, obviously with malicious intent. As someone else said, he sees Spike as his protégé, and so it's logical that he'd jump to the conclusion that Spike would do the same thing he would, even though you're right, Spike isn't one to play head games.

What made Cordelia and Oz not think it wasn't just a one time thing, and just a lapse in judgement in the face of a crisis?
Well, in Oz's case at least, I think it's because he knew Willow had had feelings for Xander in the past. Remember how he wouldn't kiss Willow if it was just to make Xander jealous? So as much as it hurt him, it probably wasn't totally a surprise to see them kissing. I don't know if Cordelia would be thinking along the same lines, but one time thing or not, it's still a shock to her, and hurtful, and so I don't think her first thought would be, "Oh, well, they thought they were gonna die, so it's okay."

And why didn't Xander just stay? It wasn't as if she could go anywhere--he should have explained himself and begged for her forgiveness.
Oh, hell no! She has every right to be angry, and every right not to want to see him or listen to his explanations, and he'd be absolutely taking advantage of her injury if he forced her to listen to him while she's restricted to a hospital bed and can't possibly avoid him. It's incredibly rude and disrespectful to refuse to leave a person's hospital room if they don't want to see you - especially if it's because you just hurt them.

As Oz explained to Willow, there are some times when the person who's been hurt just needs to be alone and have space to think. The polite thing to do was to leave when Cordelia asked him to. And when she's ready to hear what Xander has to say, that is the time for groveling.

Angry, absolutely. Pissed off to infinity, darn tootin' - but ultimately I don't think Cordelia Chase would have walked (or ran) away without some kind of showdown with the mousy red-head she still felt was beneath her notice
I disagree. This is a different Cordelia than the one we first met. She really fell hard for Xander - she would've had to, to give up everything that was important to her: her popularity, her friends, and attention from the hottest guys in school. This guy affected her like no other guy she's dated, and he hurt her more than she's ever been hurt before. So yeah, I can see her running out of there - especially because the old Cordelia resurfaces in the next few episodes and she's back to being a bitch and wishing revenge on Xander. I love that, in contrast to others like Buffy and Willow who wallow in the break-up angst, Cordy takes a little time to mourn and then snaps right back.

this was one episode where we should have see Oz showing a bit more reaction.
On that, I would go back to what I suggested earlier - that maybe Oz was so calm because part of him felt it was inevitable, given Willow and Xander's previous relationship.

Also, battle experienced Xander and Willow, teenagers or not, freaking out after being stuck for a couple hours, assuming they'd die and never get out? Without even looking for an exit?
Scarlet already mentioned that Xander was unconscious and that Willow tried the door, but even if they'd found an exit, how were they going to escape? Xander couldn't walk, even when he regained consciousness, and Willow certainly isn't strong enough to carry him. How far were they going to get? Their only other option would be for Willow to leave Xander and go get help - risking that if Spike came back and found Willow gone, he'd kill Xander.

If Xander was in all the same classes - which were led to believe time and again throughout the series - why are we suddenly given the impression he's Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel?
Actually it's Willow who calls herself Cletus, and I don't think cracks from Xander about his own intelligence are out of the ordinary. (And, to be fair, his joke about him and Buffy manning the drive-through side by side is not all that far from the truth.) I didn't think they were going particularly hard on the "dumb Xander" any more than usual. Also, as you point out, he did have trouble with "the math" and since half of the SATs are "the math," it's entirely plausible that he didn't do well on the test.

I never bought the magic = drugs, uh, stuff we were handed in season six especially because of episodes like this one where we are shown Willow's issues with insecurity, her controlling behaviors, and her arrogance that her decisions are superior to others around her.
Oh, huge amen to that. I loved that Willow's control issues and using magic to fix emotions were a continuing thread of character development (all the way up to Tabula Rasa), and I hated it when they threw it all out the window in favor of the crack metaphor.

I liked the foreshadowing to Willow's problems with magic here. For Oz, surely everyone knows he isn't really expressive or loud, and I thought the soft devastation on his face very telling for his character, and it's natural for him to say 'let's get out of here' or whatever like that, trying to focus on something else before the hurt makes him unable to do anything else. Just because he doesn't show his reactions in exaggerated ways doesn't mean he doesn't feel things deeply. The Will-Oz make-up scene in the next episode or after that was incredible for how I saw his character, caring and sweet and forgiving, but not forgetting, and mature. Also, I liked how Cordelia was shown to be softer but still spunky early on, like about Xander being locker material and the sweet teasing, which worked with then being so hurt and wanting to escape taht she finally really cared for a boy past the status symbol boyfriend thing. She didn't revert back to a bitch afterwards, she was hurting and wanting not to show it because that would make her vulnerable, so she tried to come back really tough- more of an act than forgetting about Xander.
In season 4, Spike was pretty pathetic and that still bothers me. In this, though, it still seemed keeping with his persona. We already knew he was sweet with Dru and vulnerable and cared about her a lot. Getting drunk and feeling hurt and ranting a little about the chaos demon seems natural to me, like going back to Sunnyhell and trying to find a way to fix it all with some big gesture. Apart from Dru, he only has the status as the Big Bad to define him, but she was more the reason he was the Big Bad. Once he lost Dru, he lost direction. That's natural and not bumbling or pathetic. I thought this episode was great in showing the layers of his character, especially getting back into the fight at the end. He was obviously still a bad vamp, not pretending to e human like Angel, but still felt things, but like a vamp would. And I totally agree that Buffy had no right to say some of the things she did about his relationship! and Angel should have kept his mouth shut and not tried to goad him about Dru!

Why is that bogus? She didn't even tell her friends until they figured it out for themselves. Since she and Angel had decided to be just friends, she probably felt her mom didn't need to know. It's not like she expected him to be coming around the house or anything.

But by then, all of her friends did know--Joyce is the only one out of the loop.  I thought that was wrong.  Since the cat was out of the bag to everyone else involved in her life, why not tell her mom?  It was weird at that point.  When no one else knew, fine, but when everyone knows but Joyce, yeah, I thought that was bad.

And I agree with Guest--this was way more truer to the character of Spike than s4, but honestly, they just didn't know what to do with him then besides give him a bit of face time.  Of course, there are oodles of fan fic that deal with this, and make Spike useful in a more pleasing way than what was presented in canon...but hey, it's done.

But by then, all of her friends did know--Joyce is the only one out of the loop.
Well, not the first time that happened. Joyce was out of the loop for years about Buffy being the Slayer, while her friends have known all along. She was out of the loop when Buffy dated Angel the first time. And even now that she knows, Joyce is still adjusting to the fact that Buffy's the Slayer, and all the dangers that go along with it. She's already worried enough, so I can see why Buffy might not want to bring up, "Oh, by the way, my ex-boyfriend who tried to kill us all and whom I sent to hell is back, and he's still a vampire, but he's totally good now, just as long as we don't sleep together again."

Buffy's default setting seems to be secrecy, especially when it comes to Angel, so I never really found it unusual. *shrug* Probably not a good idea to keep it from her mother, but not unusual for Buffy.

Xander couldn't walk, even when he regained consciousness, and Willow certainly isn't strong enough to carry him.

Yet, minutes later he was dashing after Cordelia.  I think their (Willow and Xander) panic was a bit premature and forced, but again, I think this was all about turning up the angst factor and the drama.  It's a nit pick, I know, but it just feels off to me.

I think the writers could have gotten the same result in terms of story progression while allowing for some reactions a bit closer to character on the supporting cast with the sub-plots.  The Spike/Buffy/Angel scenes were spot on, in my opinion, and very in character - even Buffy ragging on Spike.  Yet, the background story - a very obvious vehicle for the changes coming in casting - was twisted just a bit too far in terms of characterization.

Not necessarily. Xander has been portrayed as having this huge thing for super strong hot chicks (slayers), and that was the only real competition that Cordelia thought she had. Not to mention she loved the boy--she never had a boyfriend where she actually gave two craps about him before Xander. In fact, I think she actually uses the term BX (before Xander). To lose the guy she cares about to mousy Willow (in her eyes) is even bigger slap in the face. She loses to the nice, beige BFF. Her self esteem took a huge hit there.

I disagree. This is a different Cordelia than the one we first met. She really fell hard for Xander - she would've had to, to give up everything that was important to her: her popularity, her friends, and attention from the hottest guys in school. This guy affected her like no other guy she's dated, and he hurt her more than she's ever been hurt before. So yeah, I can see her running out of there - especially because the old Cordelia resurfaces in the next few episodes and she's back to being a bitch and wishing revenge on Xander. I love that, in contrast to others like Buffy and Willow who wallow in the break-up angst, Cordy takes a little time to mourn and then snaps right back.

Maybe its a personal perspective thing for me.  I tried to take a step back and put some objectivity on my interpretation of her actions and I think I'm too influenced by the Cordelia of AtS and that wonderful scene from "Rm w/a Vu" where Cordelia fights back against the ghost saying, "I am a bitch," and, "I'm not a sniveling whiny little Cry-Buffy.  I'm the nastiest girl in Sunnydale history. I take crap from no one!"   There's her little rant from BtVS's "Homecoming" that springs to mind, etcetera.  *sigh*  I think I'm just going to just accept what I saw on screen and let it go.     This is probably one of those moments I can't be objective about.

I hated it when they threw it all out the window in favor of the crack metaphor.

Probably one of the worst decisions of the creative minds behind the show, if not the worst.  And I'm stating that with the Buffy/Spike interaction from that same season in mind. 

...hmmm, now there's a potential discussion for the future - listing and discussing both the best and the worst of the plot lines for the series as a whole.  Like, top three (each) or something.

Couple of little picks - why didn't werewolf Oz pick up on all the extra closeness between Xander and Willow before the night at the factory? He could smell Willow from presumably several yards from her location (enough to know she was frightened) but he didn't pick up on the extra lust and touching in the weeks prior? Massive goof and plot snag there, folks.

With this I do agree with your point and it was, like so many other things, a huge plot error - perhaps the writers were going with the "predator instincts and survival skills." Plus I don't know what time of the month this takes place - werewolf OZ is not subject to the extreme transformation outside of the moon cycle.

Another thing that I always felt was way out of kilter with high school was having Xander in the same classes as Willow and Cordelia - Neither Xander nor Harmony (if she is as stupid as they portray her character) would have been placed in the same class schedule. Unless school has changed very much, students are separated by test results and grade achievement - Xander is presented in the series as not a particularly "academic high achiever."

Throughout the entire series, the viewers are asked to dispense with logical connections - I don't know if that is just "lazy writing" or absence of strong continuity check personnel.

But by then, all of her friends did know--Joyce is the only one out of the loop.

Could they really have had Joyce know of an "Angel Return" without a huge confrontation scene between Buffy and her mom? After the Angel/Angelus fiasco, what mother would ever accept a return of Angel in any form? Plus, IMO, Buffy knew that she was playing in a very dangerous and volatile field with Angel’s return – otherwise she would not have kept him a secret.

How do we have the Spike-Joyce Heart Broken Vampire scene – does having Spike enter Joyce’s home mean that she never knew anything of the climax of Angel-Angelus Acathla? Logically Joyce would not have allowed any vampire into her home after all the tragic results of Angel-Angelus. So, we the viewers do have to go along with many of the plot errors if we want to enjoy this series. Does not mean that we don’t see them, but we accept them if we want to have Spike-Joyce-Chocolate with little marshmallows.

Same as with Buffy’s presentation as not being a particularly good student – seriously, how many students would actually have her SAT results if they did not also have a history of high success in their studies. Buffy presented as a poor student does not seem logical if we accept that she scored in the highest percentile group on SAT.

I still think OZ was wonderful in this story arc - plus he and Willow, IMO, are tributaries of the Buffy-Angel separation rite of passage theme.  Willow and Buffy have to accept that sometimes life just does not follow your desires - and you have to take both the responsibility of your actions and the consequences of your choices.  Willow and Xander betrayed Oz and Cordelia, she was so very fortunate that a wonderful young man like OZ forgave her and tried again; Xander was not.  And Willow never did learn, until she murdered someone, that she cannot control events with her power of magic and that you can't have a deep love for another person without taking the pain that will eventually come with love. 

 

The Mayor talks about having a "Spike problem," and says, "He was up to all sorts of shenanigans last year.  We had a world of fun trying to guess what he'd to next."  I know it's mostly a line for laughs, and it's not really a retcon (since we have that line of Snyder's in season 2 alluding to the Mayor) but it brings up the fact that the Mayor was aware of what was going on in season 2.  I wonder what he thought of Angelus's "shenanigans," trying open up hell and all.

Unless school has changed very much, students are separated by test results and grade achievement - Xander is presented in the series as not a particularly "academic high achiever."
That depends in large part on the size of the high school. A big school may be able to offer the same math class at three different academic levels, but a smaller one just wouldn't have the capacity. (Believe me, I hear plenty from parents of gifted students who are stuck in regular classes because the district can't offer an advanced placement track.) I don't know that we ever get a sense of how big Sunnydale High is. Probably a big factor is that they'd have trouble recruiting good teachers to a place with such a high mortality rate.

I think it's more likely that Xander and Buffy are in the proper courses, and Willow's way below her level. I mean, if she's capable enough to teach a class - and please, let's not get into another discussion of how unlikely that is, let's just accept that it's canon and move on - then she's probably way ahead of the other students in her grade. Also, Willow's help by tutoring and/or doing their homework for them could help to keep them in college-prep level courses.

I also don't see a problem with Buffy being portrayed as a poor student. It doesn't mean she's not smart... we've seen her cutting classes and showing up unprepared for tests because she was out fighting demons the night before. It's not that she can't do well, it's that slaying is constantly interfering with study time. It's the same way that Oz could be a genius and yet still flunk a grade. If you don't do the work, you're not gonna pass.

Also, some people just test well, and overall, the SATs aren't a great reflection of classroom performance. Although usually it's the opposite - people who get really good grades but do poorly on the SATs. But I don't think it's that unusual that Buffy could do surprisingly well on the SATs while still doing poorly in school.

Goldenusagi mentions 'retcon' but what is that, exactly?

I remember Snyder getting on the phone and telling the Mayor he has good news as soon as he expels Buffy, she picks up a sword, and leaves. I think the Mayor was counting on the Slayer taking care of that little end of the world problem, just a vamp with delusions of grandeur, and the good news was that she would have not come back to mess with his own plans after being expelled. Also, maybe just not thinking too far ahead when writing the first season, but don't you think the Mayor wouldn't have allowed the blood factory we see in The Wish and wouldn't have appreciated the Master doing more than a few massacres in his town? Maybe he expected the Slayer to clean it up, and didn't mind her random patrolling and helping to protect his city and let people live in denial, when she wasn't interfering with his own plans that she didn't even know about.

Buffy could be very smart, streetwise, a strategist, intelligent, crafty... etc. But all those qualities don't necessarily measure as book smarts and I don't think such high SAT scores are plausible when it's a matter of having random information from school, not thinking things through or finding solutions to situations kind of smarts. This eppie is before Helpless, and I liked how Giles' reaction to her going to college was so much more like a father than a Watcher or boss. I also feel like Angel was going for the poor-me manipulation to get sympathy in their little talk while acting like he didn't know he was. Surely he was able to at least sit up straight and look calm when he wasn't feeling great, not slump back, head down, tragically quiet voice and selfless noble words about her... I'm maybe bitter.

Also, enhanced senses for Oz. Wouldn't he have smelt the blood all over Xander more than the fear of Willow?  For Spike, too, I saw an interview recently. Marsters said something about you actually see him bite or kill somebody on this set! So I was thinking, and the only times before he got a soul in the totally whipped version of Spike made and under the control of the First, we only see Spike actually kill somebody a few times:  He snaps the neck of a guy in School Hard. He bites the shopkeeper in LW. Kills two slayers in flashbacks during FFL. And that's it. Meanwhile we see Angelus constantly having some casual victim in a whole lot of scenes, even when he's not going after the Scoobies or Miss Calendar. Thought that was interesting.
Someone called Spike bumbling in this episode. What about that attack on the shopkeeper, and the disturbing talk with Willow? They certainly seemed willing to show him totally evil as well as in love and hurting.

A retcon is "retroactive continuity." It's when a previously established fact is contradicted by something later in canon. To take an example from another recent thread, Spike's age is retconned a few times - in s2, he is "barely 200," in s4, he's "only 126," but in s5, we learn that he was turned in 1880, making him no more than 120 in Fool For Love. Sometimes it's explainable (the "barely 200" comes from the Council, which may not have accurate records), but sometimes it's just an inconsistency that you have to ignore.

Wouldn't he have smelt the blood all over Xander more than the fear of Willow?
Possibly, but he'd probably recognize Willow's scent better than Xander's. He may have smelled the blood, but didn't know whose it was until he smelled Willow's fear.

Oh.  Oops, is it?  I always thought a retcon resulted from the author/creator thinking of a new plot they wanted to use in a book/season, and realizing that it didn't quite fit with what they'd said before, so they come up with some line to toss in that establishes that what they're doing now does in fact fit in with the past, hence the retcon.  More of a rewriting history than an inconsistency; like an inconsistency would be an 'oops, I forgot about that,' and a retcon would be the author purposefully rewriting their canon.  Though of course, maybe it's not, or maybe I'm not making sense.  And of course I can't think of an example right now.

I think it can be used both ways. An example of what you're thinking of would be like Buffy in "Normal Again." Six years into the series, we learn that Buffy was once in a mental institution, even though there was nothing to suggest that in any earlier episode, and in fact there are certain things said by Joyce and Buffy that don't really make sense if she had previously been in a mental institution. But because "Normal Again" says it is so, it retroactively changes everything that came before it.

I guess the difference is that what you're thinking of would be a conscious retcon - you know you're contradicting yourself, but you do it anyway, and try to patch it up. An inconsistency like Spike's age would probably be an unconscious retcon - the author doesn't realize their mistake, and it's up to the audience to come up with the explanation.

Ah, yes!  Normal Again, perfect example.

I didn't know if people considered Spike being able to strike out at Buffy without the chip going off in FFL, saying it was because there was no intent to harm as the reason, was retcon or not. On one hand, it's Joss' universe so he can make a scientific chip behave in any radically illogical way he wants, like being able to read actual thoughts by brain wave patterns or something, but on the other hand, when Spike first had the chip he was unable to do even unintentional harm like shoving through a crowd without thinking it would 'hurt' somebody in Who Are You? (and how stupid was that? who would be hurt by that?) or even pointing a gun at Xander without any intent to fire before he knew it was a fake gun. Even the writers admitted it was pretty weak and they just threw in the two sentences about intent to harm to be able to have an actual physical demonstration of the fight in the episode.

I didn't know if people considered Spike being able to strike out at Buffy without the chip going off in FFL, saying it was because there was no intent to harm as the reason, was retcon or not. On one hand, it's Joss' universe so he can make a scientific chip behave in any radically illogical way he wants, like being able to read actual thoughts by brain wave patterns or something, but on the other hand, when Spike first had the chip he was unable to do even unintentional harm like shoving through a crowd without thinking it would 'hurt' somebody in Who Are You? (and how stupid was that? who would be hurt by that?) or even pointing a gun at Xander without any intent to fire before he knew it was a fake gun. Even the writers admitted it was pretty weak and they just threw in the two sentences about intent to harm to be able to have an actual physical demonstration of the fight in the episode.

"Another thing that I always felt was way out of kilter with high school was having Xander in the same classes as Willow and Cordelia - Neither Xander nor Harmony (if she is as stupid as they portray her character) would have been placed in the same class schedule. Unless school has changed very much, students are separated by test results and grade achievement - Xander is presented in the series as not a particularly "academic high achiever." "

There were three high schools in my district, serving two pretty small cities, and all 3 were overcrowded, mine having 3000 more often than not. And we definitely had three levels of classes. For example, Physical Science wasn't college prep, but Biology and every science class above it was. Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 were college prep. There was also a Alg2/Trig class, a Trig class, Calc. 1 and 2 for upper options, plus AP Calc.. 3 levels of English, as well, plus AP english classes. But I'm in a state with many English as a second language students, so sometimes they need to start high school in basic English before they can move into standard college prep in later grades.

When they pan out for the overhead Sunnydale area, it's pretty populated and widespread, so they've got to have at least 2 levels of classes, regular and Honors. It's possible Willow would choose to be in regular classes so she could stay with friends, but she'd be awfully bored. (And the gov't doesn't recruit regular students, ahem)

The impression of the school grounds was fairly large, too (I know they filmed at a big high school when they went over there), definitely more spread out than the school I went to. I don't think I know of a regular CA high school that isn't crowded, south of Santa Barbara.

Well, you also have to take into consideration the thinning of the population, as it were, would be much greater in Sunnydale. I doubt most of those overcrowded high schools in CA find a dead body in a locker once a week or so.

Yes, and it's harder to recruit AP teachers to schools with high mortality rates.

Same as with Buffy’s presentation as not being a particularly good student – seriously, how many students would actually have her SAT results if they did not also have a history of high success in their studies. Buffy presented as a poor student does not seem logical if we accept that she scored in the highest percentile group on SAT.

Actually, it is logical, but it's unusual.  By the same idea that we have people who don't do well on tests, but are extremely smart, we also have people who never show up for class, don't turn in homework, and yet still manage to test very well.  It's aberrant, but not illogical.

Did Willow really need that particular spell book, or did she just send Spike to Buffy's in the hope that Buffy would get him?  She doesn't say anything like that to Xander when she goes over the list of what could happen to them (unless I totally just missed it).

That's a good question. I'd like to think she was clever enough to send him to Buffy's on purpose, but I definitely think she would've mentioned it to Xander if that was the case. Also, I don't know that she would risk putting Joyce in danger if Buffy wasn't home (she couldn't have known that would end in hot chocolate and moping).

On the other hand, Willow doesn't know Spike has an invitation to Buffy's house. (Or at least, that's what I'm assuming, since I don't really see that as something Buffy would feel the need to mention.) So Willow probably would have expected either Buffy or Joyce to have to invite him in, meaning she didn't expect him to sneak in and grab the book. Someone would have to know he was there, and why, so presumably they would do something about it and come to the rescue.

In fanfic a lot of people write with different ideas, but does anyone know for certain if the others knew about Spike and the Acathla incident? If not, which is most widely accepted or believed as happened on the show:  That all the Scoobies were told about Spike's offer of help, he was there when Joyce learned about vampires (I think she'd mention him), and that he helped get Dru away; Or Buffy hid the fact that Spike offered the truce and told no one about the invite, so he wasn't dis-invited; Or Buffy didn't bother telling anyone about it, ever. It never was brought up, even though Angel getting his soul back in S3 and Xander lying about Willow's words all the way in S7 referred back to that day. Don't forget that Spike had Dru go into Giles head and tried to keep Angelus from killing him. I just wonder what the Scoobs know about that, since no one mentions it that I remember on the show, even if the info woulda been good to have.

I'm thinking...Giles knew.  I'm sure that he either figured it out (once he wasn't being tortured of course, and the events of that grisly day), or he and Buffy discussed it at some point.  Not only that, in s4, Buffy writes him off too much "Oh, it's just some crazy Spike scheme--I can handle it on my own," and everytime she does, he ends up not dead.  If Giles thought he was that much of a threat, he wouldn't have let her chase after him without some kind of aide (I would think).  And again, letting him live with him?  Sure, he was tied up, but why put him at the dinner table?  Why not in a corner or somewhere--treat him like a real prisoner.  It was weird.  We've seen Giles with other captives, but he was definitely more tolerant and less with the manhandling with Spike (until he tells him to back the hell off upon learning he's in love with Buffy of course).

Xander was clueless, I'm sure, and Willow, I think identifies with him on many levels, which explains her kindness towards him and wanting him to stick around, but I don't think she was aware.  I don't think she needed that bit of info in order to be nice to him.

ETA:  Yeah, he does tell Willow about the truce in "Lover's Walk," and she frowns when he says it in a "what?" kind of way...I'm sure she discussed it later (after the whole break up drama) with either Buffy or Giles.  At the very least, when he resurfaces again.  She could have talked about it with Buffy when they're walking past that funeral--they are discussing the last few days events after all.  We catch them towards the end of the convo.

I always wondered how much the Scoobies knew about Becoming II as well.  Obviously, Buffy was not forthcoming about what happened that night (it had to practically be dragged out of her), and I bet that Spike was so far down on the list of things that it never occurred to her to mention him.  She was too hung up on Angel/us at the time (rightly so, I suppose), and she was never going to see Spike again.  Who cared about the crazy lovesick vampires who had disappeared? 

Though, on the other hand, you think Giles would have at least asked what became of Spike and Drusilla, unless he figured it out on his own.  When Spike showed up in Lovers Walk, he brings it up to Willow, though she doesn't really seem to be listening in detail to him ramble (being in fear for her life and all).  A perfect time to bring it up would have been when Giles is discussing with Spike the redeeming possibilities of the chip, but the writers had probably forgotten Becoming by that point.....

I been thinking about Buffy and her SAT scores and come to realize that based on her high intelligence, as clearly shown especially season 1, with Slayer instinct and analysis of dealing with the demonic encounters, her scores could easily have happened - not sure about the math section, but the verbal and written could reflect her natural and slayer intelligence.

Does anyone think that seeing Buffy and Spike both being in the daylight, Buffy in her sunshine environment, and Spike as the vampire making himself able to be function in the daylight is a foreshadow of his future?   Spike via his daytime filtered DeSoto literally defies his ultimate enemy, The Sun.  When he tells Buffy that all he has to do is be the type of vamp/demon that Dru wants is so close to what he does after his rape attempt - trying to become the man that Buffy could and would love.   The writers also have being able to entered Buffy's home and show him in obvious pain from love and pro-active in getting his love back.  Even in this vamp twisted love story, I always come away thinking that this is the start of Spike new path and the title makes me think of Spike more than any of the other characters - his humorous and ironic and soon to be tragic road to new love and life.  All the lovers take their own paths at the end and maybe it's just the Spuffy in me that sees Spike as the character which is the most foreshadowed in this episode.  Buffy and Angel start their final separation after his Love's Bitch speech and her Spike is also in a vital transformation role. 

Not suggesting that this was all planned to develop Spike transformation journey at this point, after all the creative pov is  always malleable, but Spike really seemed to become an important part of the series after this - even if he is not there, he effected important changes in the life of Scoobydom and when he does reappear, he is no longer seen as just another common black hat vamp - many of the viewers begin to see him as combination of vamp & human.

Scarlet Ibis - great Icon

I agree that Giles - and probably Xander, since he was there - realized that Spike was helping Buffy in Becoming, if only because Spike was beating the ever-loving shit out of Angelus right in front of them. I doubt Buffy ever went into much detail about it (I don't, for instance, think she would ever need to mention that she invited him in, or that he met her mother), but I think they at least knew something. When she came back, once he wheedled it out of her, Buffy probably told Giles she made a deal, and that Spike and Dru were (theoretically) gone for good.

Any of them could've mentioned it to Willow. I'd have to go back and look at her expression when Spike mentions the truce to see if she looks like she's hearing it for the first time.

However, I don't think Giles saw using Drusilla to trick him as helping him - true, Angelus was ready to kill him, and Spike prevented it, but that also allowed them to get the answer out of Giles. So Spike saved his life, but that wouldn't have done Giles a whole lot of good if Angelus had sucked the world into hell. Sort of a wash, really.

Scarlet, I don't think their treatment of Spike in s4 had much to do with him helping out. I think their general opinion was that Spike was evil, and only helped because it was in his best interest. The Scoobies still expected him to want to kill Buffy, given the chance. The reason they didn't treat him like a real prisoner had more to do with the chip. He couldn't hurt them, so they didn't treat him like a serious captive (compare to how they treated Andrew in season 7).

Joyce witnessed the truce and Buffy's explict instruction to Spike to keep Giles alive. She was standing in the same room! Giles and Joyce clearly spent plenty of time "debriefing" about all sorts of Slayer stuff during the months that Buffy was gone. When she gets back, Joyce knows the score and still harbors a bit of a grudge against Giles, perhaps in a shoot-the-messenger sort of way. Anyway, Giles had to know about the truce, through Joyce and his own experience. It's not in his nature not to pursue that sort of loose end, and he must have passed it on the the rest of the Sccobies during the summer. I'm convinced that they knew of Spike's involvement in taking down Acathla. In fact, given his known involvement, their perception of his untrustworthiness, and Buffy's obvious success at ending the apocalyse and subsequent disappearance, the Scoobies could have logically concluded that he abducted/killed her. But that's a discussion for another forum.

In fact, given his known involvement, their perception of his untrustworthiness, and Buffy's obvious success at ending the apocalyse and subsequent disappearance, the Scoobies could have logically concluded that he abducted/killed her.
Buffy left a note for her mother, so they knew she ran away on her own, and wasn't abducted or killed.

Buffy also mention on the phone, I think it was to either Xander or Willow, that she had help from a source that they would not believe - which was Spike.

I don't, for instance, think she would ever need to mention that she invited him in, or that he met her mother.

You know, this brings me back to the whole Angel thing--he knew that Spike had switched sides during the whole Acathla thing, and that Spike was working with Buffy, so why think he was going to harm Joyce, when he saw them, sitting together and talking?  That made no sense to me--especially now.

I still think Giles knew about Spike (and I agree with Guest to the extent that Giles would have been relentless in piecing together all of the events of that night, and finding out about Spike someway), and Willow, given her reaction in Lover's Walk, was unaware until the moment Spike brings up the alliance.

And thanks nmcil

You know, this brings me back to the whole Angel thing--he knew that Spike had switched sides during the whole Acathla thing, and that Spike was working with Buffy, so why think he was going to harm Joyce, when he saw them, sitting together and talking?
Uh... I still think the same thing I thought upthread, lol.

I think he really did believe Spike would hurt Joyce. First of all, like I said about the Scoobies, Angel's opinion was that Spike is evil and selfish, and only helped Buffy because it was in his best interest. He's not suddenly a nice guy just because he teamed up with Buffy once. He'd still turn around and kill Buffy, given the chance. I think Angel (and we) would be incredibly stupid to assume that Spike won't hurt anyone Buffy cares about simply because they fought on the same side. That's not why he doesn't hurt Joyce at all. He doesn't hurt Joyce because he's miserable and depressed. If you need proof he's still evil, look at the fact that he just kidnapped Willow and Xander.

Also, many posts up, I said that I think Angel comes to the worst possible conclusion in Lover's Walk because it's what he would do. In fact, it's what he did - in "Passion," he tried to convince Joyce to let him into the house, to help him with Buffy, obviously with malicious intent. As someone else said, he sees Spike as his protégé, and so it's logical that he'd jump to the conclusion that Spike would do the same thing he would, even though Spike isn't really one to play head games. If he was going to kill Joyce, she would've been dead by the time Angel got there, but Angel's thinking like himself, not like Spike.

I forget which story, but somewhere an author points out that Angel is talking about himself when he does his little, "He won't stop until everything in his path is dead" speech it sounds more like Angelus than like hyperactive, immature Spike.

I think this thread is starting to go in circles now, and we can talk about Spike's character and what the others think of him on different threads. Should we start the combined thread of Bad Girls and Consequences?

 If you need proof he's still evil, look at the fact that he just kidnapped Willow and Xander.

On the totem pole of evil, especially in Sunnydale, it's really the kind that's not.  That Gwendolyn Post was way more evil in that ep then Spike was in Lover's Walk.  And Xander was just an innocent bystander--he wasn't really apart of the plan.  Now, if he had killed Xander or tortured Xander to give Willow incentive, then that would have been evil.

And Guest, I recommend that if you want to start a new thread, you should just go ahead and do it.  Otherwise, it'll go in circles about who's going to start it and when, etc.

nmcil--that's cool.  I have no idea how to make things like that

On the totem pole of evil, especially in Sunnydale, it's really the kind that's not.
Okay, how about he killed the magic shop owner for no reason without a second thought? Sorry, Scarlet, but season 3 is too early for any of the characters (or the audience) to expect fluffy puppy Spike. I'd find it ridiculous if Angel seriously walked up and saw Spike in Buffy's house with her mother and didn't freak out.

I wouldn't call it "fluffy puppy" either.  But I'm saying, it's still pretty low (on the totem pole of evil).  Even for Spike's standards--he kills only one townie, and that was for food (not because she was old, or cause he was bored, etc.).  And hey, he is the "bad guy", which I totally get, but by bad guy standards, he really wasn't all that bad in that ep.

Yeah, he wasn't that bad in this ep because he was miserable and depressed. But my point is that Angel doesn't know that when he sees Spike, so why would he assume that Spike's not going to be his usual self? As I've already explained, I don't think the truce is enough for Angel to expect Spike to be nice to Joyce, so there's no reason for him not to freak out.

I forget which story, but somewhere an author points out that Angel is talking about himself when he does his little, "He won't stop until everything in his path is dead" speech it sounds more like Angelus than like hyperactive, immature Spike.

At this point in the series (S3, "Lover's Walk" ) Spike isn't shown on screen as hyperactive (edit: I'll buy that one) or immature.  That part of the character is only shown in sections of season four and later.  In fact, his actions could be seen as downright patient and methodical in his efforts to cure Drusilla - DuLac, hiring Taraka assassins, video taping Buffy, sending out minions to gather The Judge, regaining his ability to walk, etcetera.  He claims to be bored when attacking the school before the Night of St. Vigeous (sp?) but from a planning perspective it made perfect sense.  Attack the slayer away from her home or a vampire barrier in the middle of a crowd of innocents she's going to be distracted trying to protect, or wait until she's able to hide inside waiting for the one night vampires are at their strongest to be over?  It wasn't like the specialness of the night was a secret or anything.  Element of surprise and all makes much more sense.

edit: maybe this is a perspective thing, because I can see where Spike might be seen as impulsive before S4, and that can be construed as hyperactive

I thought Angel's reaction to Spike being in the house with Joyce was right on target.  And while we are able to see later in the series that Spike probably wouldn't have hurt Joyce, the reality is, at that point, he really could have killed her.  It's possible that entire scene is what builds his affection for her that we see later in the series.  Angel can only base his reaction to Spike on their history, and it fits that he would expect a vampire to eat a human, especially one as vicious as William the Bloody.

Why was Spike at Joyce's house at all?  Looking for the Slayer?  Wouldn't that mess up his love potion plans?

Also, so not buying that Spike was attracted to Willow, other than for a quick drink.  Alison H has to be one of the most asexual actresses I can think of.  I didn't even buy Xander being attracted to her. 

Interesting that Willow goes to the chemistry lab to cook up her magic concoction. 

Why was Spike at Joyce's house at all?
Willow sent him there. She said she couldn't do the love spell because she needed a spell book that she'd left at Buffy's house. The debate is still open on whether or not she really needed the book or if she sent him to Buffy's house in the hopes that Buffy would intercept him and come save them. I'm actually curious what other people think about that, since I could see it going both ways.

Also, so not buying that Spike was attracted to Willow, other than for a quick drink. Alison H has to be one of the most asexual actresses I can think of.
I disagree, but I think that's probably personal preference. I'll give you that she's not nearly as hot in s3 as she is later in the series (or on HIMYM), but I would definitely not describe Alyson Hannigan as asexual.

I think Willow sent him there on the hopes of Buffy intercepting him, as well as to buy time (she mentions him being drunk, thinking that he may forget all about them).  Also, why would she have a book about love spells at Buffy's house?  She didn't practice her magic there, and also, she was trying to be secretive with spells of that nature (because of the whole Xander thing).  Willow's not stupid--she figured Spike would kill them as soon as the task was over more than likely, and that he was being sloppy, being drunk and all.

Yeah, that makes sense to me... the only thing that throws me off is that Willow doesn't mention, "Or Buffy finds Spike and comes to save us," as one of the options to Xander. You'd think she would want to consider the only option that ends with them living...

The only thing I can think of is that Willow was making Xander think it was worse than it was so he'd make out with her (since that's the immediate result of their conversation), but that seems extreme, even for Willow, who's a pretty consistent manipulator.

Or, more likely, the writers wanted to use the "exception for impending death" excuse to get them making out, and Willow mentioning Buffy coming to save them means the situation isn't dire enough.

Outside of the "sexual metaphor" that is often associated with vamps - I think that Spike is not meant to want Willow sexually, but more as a potential feeding, or does the reference to "that smell" suggest that he can smell the sexual desires between Xander and Willow?   Here is the transcript of that part of the episode:

Spike:  I mean, friends! How could she be so cruel?

He raises his head and looks at her neck.

Spike:  Mmm. That smell... Your neck...

He leans in to take a better whiff and then leans back, now in his game
face.

Spike:  I haven't had a woman in weeks.

Willow looks at him and jumps up in fright.

Willow:  Whoa! No! Hold it!

Spike:  Well, unless you count that shopkeeper. (stands up)

Willow:  (panting with fright) Now, now, hold on! I-I'll do your spell
for you, and, and, and I'll get you Drusilla back, but, but there will
be no bottle-in-face, and there will be no 'having' of any kind with me.
Alright?

He grabs her by the neck and bends her over, but makes no move to bite
her. Instead he reverts to his human guise.

No, outside of the biting = sex metaphor, I don't think Spike is really thinking of anything other than feeding, but when they talk about this scene in "The Initiative," Spike's attraction to Willow is definitely played as a double entendre. (I also find it hilarious that Spike describes what she was wearing, but fails to describe it as, "That time I kidnapped you." And then Willow's all, "I never would've guessed" that he wanted to bite her, even though he was sniffing her neck and making blatant overtures about biting her, enough to make her jump up and give him a lecture.)

Did anyone else notice that the book is never mentioned beyond Willow telling Spike she needs it? Spike doesn't get a book from the magic shop or Joyce, doesn't ask Joyce or Buffy or bring it up, just goes with them to the shop for ingredients. It seems like it's just an excuse to get Spike near the Summers' home. I agree that Spike was only thinking about feeding, and the sexual undertones is just the regular stuff from feeding, like a guy vamp anting to bite a girl, and preferably a pretty girl.    BTW-- Eowyn, you mentioned Alison H looks good in "HIMYM". What episode is that? or season? I just can't find a title that long in my head.

The only thing that connects the episode to the Joyce visit with the spell is the list that Buffy has - anyway this is the only thing I can remember.  One of the things I really like about this episode is how Spike is shown as being fundamentally motivated by his Love.  He is turned at every scene from his acts of brutal violence to his sorrow over his loss of Drusilla.  There is no question that he is completely capable of killing, as he easily kills the women at The Magic Box, but he easily changes from wanting to take revenge on Angel/Angelus to being active on trying to get his Love relationship with Drusilla back.  No Question that he is brutal killer but his love and sorrow is what keeps moving him on.


"Did anyone else notice that the book is never mentioned beyond Willow telling Spike she needs it? "

There are so many instances in the series  when just a little attention to detail would have helped so much with the continuity.

Spike doesn't get a book from the magic shop or Joyce, doesn't ask Joyce or Buffy or bring it up, just goes with them to the shop for ingredients.
Well, he was pretty drunk. I'm sure it wouldn't take much to distract him so that he forgot why he went to Buffy's in the first place. And it's not like he ever goes back to Willow for her to say, "Hey, what about my spell book?"

Guest - HIMYM isn't an episode, it's How I Met Your Mother, the TV series Alyson is currently starring in.

After Buffy let Spike up off the kitchen counter and he says his piece, notice that he does not walk out the back door but goes farther into the house, presumably for the book.  Later, when he complains about sobering up and tells about killing the homeless man on the park bench, he does have a book.

Huh. Yeah, you're right, he does have a book. He has it in the magic shop scene, too. I never noticed that before. I guess that answers the question about Willow's motivation, too. She wasn't just making it up to put Spike in Buffy's path.

I wouldn't have noticed it if I wasn't watching for it , for an "insert Dawn" fic I'm writing.  I had wondered why Spike went into the house afterward.  For the book of course!  I can just see Buffy after the scene cuts off, maybe saying, "Where the hell are you going?" 

But also, love spells have to be pretty common things in the Buffyworld.  Willow probably had several books with love spells in them.  Though really, I wondered why the book that she HAD didn't have a love spell in it.  I mean, she and Xander were doing an anti-love spell, wouldn't it have a love spell as well?  At least, I'm assuming that the things Spike presented her with to do the love spell were the stuff he grabbed that she was working with.

Though when it comes down to it, the writers just wanted the scene between Joyce, Angel, and Spike, and then the scene between Xander and Willow where they think they're gonna die. 

Well, it's possible that Willow still sent Spike on a wild goose chase.  I mean, sure he has a book...but it's not like he's going to know it's relevance to the spell he requested.  After all, how would Willow know exactly which materials are needed for a love spell (because she hasn't performed one before) from off the top of her head?  She asked him to get a book that was conveniently at Buffy's house, and a long list of stuff for a spell she's never performed.  Who knows--maybe she was all Honest Abe on that one.

She seemed to know the general ingredients for an anti-love spell (whether she looked them up beforehand or not) when she went into the magic shop.  Love spell ingredients must be similar, because the lady asks her if she's doing a love spell, and then Willow says it's more of an anti-love spell.  And she had all the ingredients for an anti-love spell there, though she could have needed more things.

Hehe, maybe Willow wrote down the weirdest ingredients she could think of, hoping it would take him a long time to find them...

why Spike went into the house afterward.  For the book of course - Still kind of weird that Willow is keeping any magic books at Buffy's house.  She's already getting some flack from Giles about doing magic she isn't ready for, although she does do the spinning pencil trick for Buffy. 

I heard that Spike was being considered as a Willow love interest and this may have been a little test with the follow up where he goes to her dorm room and tries to bite her.  No chemistry there no matter what Spike says about pink sweaters.

 heard that Spike was being considered as a Willow love interest

Really?  I think I've only read like one Spillow, maybe, but that would have been so sweet...he totally would've boosted her self esteem, and she would have boosted his.  I don't see any angst with those two--perhaps the magic down the road, but I think Spike could've handled it.

"Did anyone else notice that the book is never mentioned beyond Willow telling Spike she needs it? " There are so many instances in the series when just a little attention to detail would have helped so much with the continuity.

My apologies to the writers, I, the viewer,  apparently  missed seeing  Spike carrying the book in the "bench scene."  Thanks for the clarification

 think I've only read like one Spillow, maybe, but that would have been so sweet - I read one, too and it was only bearable because Spike runs away at the end.  I think Spike likes a little bit of monster in his women - Buffy, Dawn, Joyce, Cecily and Drusilla all have a mean streak. 

I think Willow's got something of a mean streak, too. Aside from the time when she was actually evil, she's pretty controlling and manipulative and can get her bitch on when she wants to. Also, if Spike was thinking of turning her, we know she's got serious potential as a dominatrix.

I'd never heard that Spike was intended as a possible love interest for Willow, but I think it would've been interesting.