BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Spike Bashing

Jun 21 2008 11:39 am   #1Guest
I've been hearing a lot about Scott Allie bashing Spike. Does anyone know what exactly is happening with that?
Jun 21 2008 11:50 am   #2sosa lola
I don't think he bashed Spike. He just likes Angel more which is a matter of preference. I think people believe he bashes Spike because he said that he'd like Buffy with Angel because he didn't like Spike's attempt of rape on Buffy, which is a matter of opinion. We can call him a Bangel, but I don't think he ever bashed Spike.

He did write a letter to apologize to Spike's fans and explain that he never intended to put Spike down.
Jun 21 2008 01:14 pm   #3Guest
His letter as follows:

Hey gang, interesting thread.

I certainly don't hate Spike as a character. I've written repeatedly, and consistently, in editorials and in interviews why we made the jump to Buffy Year One when we did—through Season Six, when Tom and Jim were writing, we found ourselves quickly catching up in continuity, to the TV series. The problem with this was that it takes much longer to make an issue of a comic than an episode of the show. It was impossible to be current with the events of the show, as we'd be writing a mid-April comic, for instance, in December, whereas Joss would be writing a mid-April episode in February or March. Yes, this led us to shortchanging the Buffy-Spike relationship in the comic; it also kept us from having Faith in the comic almost at all. It caused us to miss a lot of things that came and went in the TV series before we could get up to date with them in the comic. Faith is one of my favorite characters—but there was nothing I could do to get her in the comic in a way that would be current, because her role in the TV show, and her relationship with the other characters, was evolving faster than we could keep up with. Ditto Spike. Jim and Tom left the book for reasons totally unrelated to Spike, or any other character—or anything I can tell you. My new writer, Scott Lobdell, pitched what would be the first Season Seven story. He pitched it, Fox approved it, and we started working on it. Then Joss told me what he was gonna do in Season Seven, and our stories were too similar for us to go forward with the plot Fox had approved—it would have stolen Joss's thunder. So we hurriedly came up with Notes from the Underground, which would be the last storyline set during TV continuity. Next, Scott pitched the idea of doing Buffy Year One—setting a story between the film and the first episode of the series, filling in some continuity Joss had only addressed by anecdote. One of the posters here seems to think that this was done specifically to remove the popular Spike character from the comics—what the poster fails to mention is that it also eliminated almost all the other supporting characters. Spike was not singled out. Willow and Xander were pretty much totally lost. Angel had a role in one arc, but was out of the other ones. Giles had a small role. Anya, Tara, they were all gone. For the most part, setting the story between film and TV eliminated the supporting cast, but allowed us to fully explore a stretch of time that we knew Joss was not going to be dealing with. The choice had nothing to do with Spike. We were not looking to eliminate a highly merchandisable character—we were looking to tell the stories we wanted to tell.

I certainly never demanded Spike never appear in another comic. That's a really weird notion, and based on nothing. Again, the changes that kept Spike out of the comic also kept a lot of other characters out. The reason Spike effectively disappeared after the Spike-centric Fassbender/Pascoe comic—a story that needed my approval from the beginning—is that that issue, and Creatures of Habit, were two of the only stories we did during the period when he and Buffy were sleeping together.

The comments I've made about Spike having raped Buffy—and I'm happy to have anyone argue that with me—were made in response to the question of Buffy + Angel or Buffy + Spike. Yes, it is my opinion that Angel is her true love, and that every relationship that followed, including Spike—and Satsu, and Riley—pale in comparison to her love of Angel. This is a matter of opinion. I know some fans agree; I know some feel the opposite. The fact that Spike did what he did to her on that bathroom floor, to me, reflects on his love of her. If your sister met with that treatment at the hands of her boyfriend, would you judge? I think you would. Love's a complicated thing, in life as in the Whedonverse, but to me, Angel and Buffy were the real thing. While I think Spike loved Buffy more than she loved him, his frustration led him to express it in some bad ways. That's not a healthy kind of love ... in life, as in the Whedonverse.

Most of the comics I've edited with Spike in them feature him as a villain because they were set during the time when he was a villain—which is the majority of the seven TV seasons. Right?

When I said that Satsu's a more appropriate partner than Spike, that has to do with Satsu being someone who fights vampires, and Spike being a vampire. And it was totally in the context of the reaction we were getting to Buffy fooling around with a woman. I was shocked by some of what we were hearing, and I was reacting to that.

Also—when the comic was finally canceled, the decision came about like this: We'd completed Year One, and the TV series was ending. I felt that the only direction to go in was forward, past Season Seven. Nothing else would feel relevant. I met with Joss, and we talked about it, and he agreed. I said I only wanted to do it with his direction, with him providing the guidelines for the continuation of the series. He agreed, said he'd think about it. We talked about Jane Espenson writing it, but she was real busy—she's always real busy. I think she would have done it for Joss, I think she'd do about anything for Joss, but it was hard for him to find time for it too. We talked about it a number of times over the next few years, but we were both always busy with other things. Finally he surprised me with the first Season Eight script. We never intended for there to be as much time passing between the end of the first series and the beginning of the new one, but that's how it worked out. Never, in any of that, was there any plotting on my part against a character.

Whoever supposedly talked to me, and then spoke for me, about my dislike of Spike, was wrong about everything, or this poster heard it wrong. Everything I've written in the post above has been written elsewhere, consistently, so the notion of me hating Spike and conspiring against him in the comics is a fantasy that I think someone wanted to come up with.

In fact, when we first made the decision to give up the Angel license, I had a conversation with my contact at Fox specifically guaranteeing that we would be able to use Spike in any future Buffy comics. My argument, that Spike was in the final episode of the Buffy TV series—unlike Cordelia, who left BTVS to be on Angel. My Fox contact promised me that we'd be able to use Spike when we got Buffy up and running again. That conversation was not at the prompting of Joss or anyone else.

And while most of what's said about me in this thread is based on false info, El Diablo Robotico is right in saying that my feelings can't keep these characters out of Season Eight. Joss is running the show. There will be no head butting. I didn't try to keep Spike out of the old comics, and I'll be happy should he appear in the new ones. (Sorry, no spoilers here.)

Finally, the only reason I'm commenting on this is to ask you all to reconsider this sort of speculation. You can never know the motives behind a writer or an artist, or even an editor's work. You can judge what's on the page, but don't assume you know what the person was thinking in laying that down. Someone in the thread above wrote that they were leery of reading Season Eight if there was a Spike-hater at the helm. I'd hate to think someone wasn't reading Joss's book because they think I have a beef against a fictional character. It's not true.

Thanks for reading—
Jun 21 2008 01:16 pm   #4Guest

But I should have also said that he did write a letter of apology and the whole thing has blown over now.

Jun 21 2008 04:34 pm   #5JoJoBird
Angel always gets the get out of jail free card.
Its like no matter what happens, how the story and the characters more forward, some people will never live life beyond that bathroom floor, which is not realistic what so ever, which Scott implies the whole situation is by dragging in the whole 'wouldnt your sister' 'not healthy kind of love'.
Why stop there? if its such a big frekking event to get a soul then why does spike never get a break with anyone (except us)
Spike scares people, because there was never a ginormous gap between spike  with/sans sould to begin with.

 and that every relationship that followed, including Spike—and Satsu, and Riley—pale in comparison to her love of Angel

Of course!!! i know i dont need to say why, because we all know.. but yeah once again people are making me chew my own tongue.
First love!Duh

Whats wrong with people, and why cant they be realistic for sh*ts!
Gah i dont even want to get in to it again.. but GAH and dubble GAH
Jun 21 2008 07:26 pm   #6nmcil

Finally, the only reason I'm commenting on this is to ask you all to reconsider this sort of speculation. You can never know the motives behind a writer or an artist, or even an editor's work.

Irrespective of your opinion about his work and treatment of the Spike character - this statement is absolutely right - and readers and viewers should respect the efforts and work of the creators doing the work.  And we also have to respect his idea regarding his notion of Buffy-Angel-Forever.  My personal opinion is that  this Great and Beautiful and Love Forever interpretation is a limited pov.  If Spike's attempted rape is being used as a milestone and measure of his love, of equal horror and totally reprehensible is Buffy's attempt to kill Faith as cure for Angel.  Are we to conclude  that trying to kill or stab another person in order to use her as sacrifice  is not equally injurious, morally and socially objectionable?  Buffy goes after Faith, by her own words, with intent to kill or bring her back to be drained - Buffy will exchange one life for another.  The Place that this love took Buffy culminates in the worst possible corruption of her status as a hero and as a model for The White Hats and forces for good - it turned Buffy into an attempted murderer. 

Buffy Loves Angel = attempted murder and sacrifice & great bodily harm  (murder as  Faith will be drained for her Slayer blood)    
Spike Loves Buffy = attempted rape

How is one action acceptable and not  than the other?  How do we justify Buffy's acts and condemn Spike?  Buffy and Spike are equally guilty of horrific acts against another human being.  Every reader and viewer of the series and the comics will bring their own perspective into the discussion, but what each must bring make part of their interpretation is the full story - I certainly understand  Scott Allie position on the attempted rape and their abusive relationship, but it can be said the same of the place that Buffy's love for Angel - she with premeditation attempted to offer Faith as a sacrifice in fact stabbed her.  People can put any spin and perspective on both acts - Buffy-Faith, Spike-Buffy, but the brutal facts remain the same. 

I am not in any way  suggesting that Scott Allie thinks it was acceptable behavior for Buffy to stab faith, I don't know his interpretation of that part of the Buffy-Angel relationship what my question to him (since he is applying real world rules)  would be seriously want a love partner and relationship for his sister that would cause her to attempted great bodily harm on another human being?  I don't know what his take would be, but I certainly think it is a fair question and part of the story that should not be ignored.

Fact is all of Buffy's Love relationship were miserable - all of them brought huge themes into the story-lines and to any discussions of said relationship - as a woman I hated the vulnerability that was young Buffy with Angel, I hate to see any woman at any age  being made that vulnerable because of her love.  Buffy and Spike, abusive; sexually and emotionally -  and no one can seriously make Buffy the "clean jeans"  in this relationship.  Riley, a man that could not accept her superior physical strength and brought in a lot of culture baggage into their relationship.  Buffy In Love is a mine field and only the brave and strong of heart should try to cultivate love on that field.  Buffy-Satsu, too early to tell where that is going, if it goes any where at all beyond a sexual encounter of brief kind.

And before I get accused of being Spuffy Brained, this same issues would apply if Xander were her lover, or my other favorite character, Tara - or Joe Normal from down the street.  

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 21 2008 08:44 pm   #7Scarlet Ibis
Interesting point, nmcil.  Maybe you should write Scott a letter
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
Jun 22 2008 03:56 am   #8Guest
I wonder what his reply would be if somebody brought up the bad points in the Bangel relationship to him. Spuffy was in no way healthy, but it was also a relationship between two supernatural beings and shouldn't be analyzed in the same way that a human relationship is.

Bangel, realistically would not work out, because not only do they not know each other anymore, they don't trust each other anymore. Spuffy might seem to pale under the scoop of Bangel, but that is only because Bangel is first love, and when you are a teenager, everything seems bigger and more passionate than it really is.