BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Fool for Love and Darla

Oct 03 2008 03:23 am   #1Spikez_tart
Okay - the moment we've been waiting for ... All the Spike All the Time.  Since we've talked about FFL a lot, I thought we might do a tag team with Darla (A2) which showed the other side of the story. 

Starting off is our darling Buffy who gets skewered with her own stake for being such a smart ass.  Riley saves the day (come on - he's not all bad) and keeps Buffy from being a Vamp Snack. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 03 2008 04:09 am   #2Scarlet Ibis
When I first saw this ep, it was absolutely exhilarating to see the literal softer side of Spike.  Seeing his journey was great.  Also to see him...pure and innocent...

Yeah, there is nothing profound about this comment, is there? Give me a moment...I'll be back.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 03 2008 10:14 am   #3sosa lola

- I know it's bad of me, but I was happy when the vampire was able to plunge the stake into Buffy's stomach. Buffy's superior attitude, as well as her puns, while patrolling does annoy me sometimes.

- See Buffy? You need someone to patrol with you from time to time, and who's better than Riley. He's trained and he's your boyfriend. Two birds with one stone.

- LOL, loved Riley's reaction to Buffy being defeated by one vampire. After all these years, one vampire is supposed to be a no big deal.

- Vampires are so underestimated this season. The gang is carelessly eating chips while patrolling. Such a help they are. Though they're really funny. However, poor Riley. Bet he'd have done a better job if he went alone.

- I love the sweet Buffy/Giles moments. There are plenty of them this season. Hate you S7! Hope S8 fixes that for me.

- Buffy, have you ever tried asking Spike to help nicely? Well, if she did, he'll start taunting her and then she'll have to hit him… which was probably what had happened here before she shoved him against the wall. Lol

- I love the Spuffy dynamic in early S5 when Spike is still snarky around her and Buffy retorts (like always), they make one interesting and entertaining duo. I think this is why Spuffy is a superior ship to Bangel and Ruffy: You've got wit as well as attraction. Bangel was full of attraction but there's no wit. Ruffy has the sweet coupley jokes but no snark.

- I don't get why some fans believe that Spike told Buffy about his pathetic William days. Is it logical that right after he tells her that he was always "bad", he'd contradict himself by stating that he was a lousy poet, no one used to respect him and the woman he loved was ashamed of him? Doesn't make sense. Spike wants to impress Buffy. He won't tell her he used to be a loser. It's obvious it was just the writers telling us that Spike is lying: "He wasn't always bad, we'll show the audience what Spike really was like." The writers tell us how Spike was like, Spike doesn't tell Buffy how he was really like. At least not his weak moments.

- Wow… look at how far Spike changed from poor, peaceful, insecure William. *hugs him*

- "They call him William the Bloody because of his bloody awful poetry." There's no way Spike would actually reveal that to Buffy. Confirms my earlier point.

- "I'd rather have a railroad spike through my head than listen to that awful stuff!" Foreshadow much. Doesn't Xander say "railroad spike" in S1 The Witch? The first time we hear the word "spike" in the series. Does that mean this man is Xander's great, great, great grandparent?

- Poor William. That's the worst rejection ever. I really wish the show made a bigger deal with Spike and Halfrek. I wonder if Cecily is already Halfrek at this point, like the comic book, it's not far-fetched. It actually makes more sense than if she became a "justice" demon later on.

- "Oh, yes! I mean, no. I mean... mother's expecting me." The biggest foreshadow to Lies My Parents Told Me.

- I still wish they didn't retcon who sired Spike, but I learned to cope.

- Angelus and Darla aren't pleased with William… er, Spike. I wish they showed us what he did in London. I can see revenge and chaos but lower than Angelus and Darla's standards, which is why they're aggravated with Spike now.

- "No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we're just animals." Here lies the difference between Angelus and Spike. Angelus has Liam's artistic nature, he likes playing with his victims, mind games and manipulation. Watch them suffer before he kills them. Spike is only in it for the kill and food. (Reminds me of a Spander fic "Sweet Revenge" where Spike is going to use Angelus' method to hurt Buffy through Xander, but doesn't follow through, because during the process of his manipulative plan, he grew to have feelings for Xander and hate himself for what he had done. I loved that. Makes Spike more human than Angelus.)

- Spike and Drusilla after he killed the Chinese slayer are too sexy for words!

- I loved, loved, loved the next scene with Angel. Poor vampire was just so scared with this newfound soul and the guilt and the sense of right and hoping that none of his ex-family would find out. Drusilla came close and Darla was suspecting, Spike was gloating about the fact that he killed a slayer when none of his elders did so he didn't pay much attention.

- "And I've had some sweet ones." Did Spike mean that he had sex with other women here or that he bit some other women? From Buffy's disgusted question, it looks like he had sex.

- Do you really believe that every slayer has a death wish? The release from the burden… I don't think Nikki wanted to die, I mean she had a son. Same goes for Chinese girl who mentioned her mother before she died. Both slayers had ties to the world. Why is Buffy any different from them? Is it because Buffy shared her secret with her family and friends? 

- Buffy's change of attitude after he ended his lesson, what do you think about it? Do you think it's because Spike touched a nerve? Or just merely scared her? Now when Spike wanted her to beat him up, it felt like he wanted to break the rising tension. But then he did the stupidest thing all dudes do when they think they got the girl all hot for them, he leans to kiss her.

- God, Buffy was so cruel. And repeating Cecily's line when Spike didn't even tell her about it stung so bad. Throwing the money at him like he was some man-bitch was another humiliating punch. I get that Buffy got scared and disgusted with Spike but her actions here were too cruel. She was the one who came for answers in the first place.

- I really sympathize with Harmony. She's Anya to Spike's Xander, the only difference is that Xander loves Anya while Spike doesn't love Harmony. And, well, Xander doesn't mistreat Anya like that. Lol

- So Spike was obsessed with Buffy since S2? Welcome to one of Joss' many retcons. Oh, well.

- Poor Buffy, I can't picture how it feels like to suspect that your mother has a tumor in her head. I just hope never feel it in my life.

- The last scene? Perfection!!! Does Buffy's attitude change toward Spike after it? It's been a long time since I watched S5. Can't wait to watch the next episode, at least for that. I wonder what Buffy thinks about Spike's actions here: Doesn't she wonder why he's acting nice to her?

Oct 03 2008 01:35 pm   #4slaymesoftly
Good stuff - I don't have time to comment on all of it; however, if you watch that prowl that Spike does through the Bronze in Season II when he first spots Buffy, it's pure lust. Lust for her blood, to be sure, but it's pretty easy to read more into it. And James has said he played it that way.   I think there are bits and pieces all throughout season II that indicate that Spike finds Buffy attractive in more than just a slayer kind of way.  Nothing overt, because he is in love with Dru, but definite attraction to this slayer.  He calls her "cutie" when he makes the truce with her - not a nickname he uses any other time with anyone else that I can recall. I think it's pretty easy to retcon that he was obsessed from the beginning.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 03 2008 02:02 pm   #5sosa lola

if you watch that prowl that Spike does through the Bronze in Season II when he first spots Buffy, it's pure lust. Lust for her blood, to be sure, but it's pretty easy to read more into it. And James has said he played it that way. I think there are bits and pieces all throughout season II that indicate that Spike finds Buffy attractive in more than just a slayer kind of way. Nothing overt, because he is in love with Dru, but definite attraction to this slayer. He calls her "cutie" when he makes the truce with her - not a nickname he uses any other time with anyone else that I can recall. I think it's pretty easy to retcon that he was obsessed from the beginning.

There's a difference between he finds her hot and he's obsessed with her. Sure there are signs that Spike finds Buffy hot and the fact that he prefers fighting with her over Kendra. But Spike didn't show obsession toward Buffy to the point that it'll flip Dru and make her cheat on him. All the times that Spike went to Sunnydale were for reasons that didn't include Buffy. First, he came to cure Dru. Second, he came to do a spell to make Dru love him again. Third: He came for the gem. Only the fourth time was about Buffy, it was more about his frustration that she ruined every single plan he had.

I'd much have liked if they developed his feelings for Buffy gradually than letting it be a "love from first sight" kinda deal. It felt as cheesy as Boy Meets World beating us to death with Corey and Topanga being in love since they were two, when obviously they weren't in the sixth grade in S1.
 

Oct 03 2008 07:28 pm   #6Guest
So Spike was obsessed with Buffy since S2? Welcome to one of Joss' many retcons. Oh, well.
What part of that episode expresses that?

I agree that he probably found her attractive, but he was only "obsessed" with her for a portion of s5--not at the beginning, and not at the end of it.  If Spike had been a thirteen year old girl (or boy), then all of his collecting could have been construed as nothing more than a "I like-like her" crush.  I mean, the stealing thing aside.  It was very grammar school, and they totally played it up that way in the beginning ("and, and I never liked you anyway, and you have stupid hair" bit).

~Scarlet
Oct 03 2008 07:56 pm   #7sosa lola
he was only "obsessed" with her for a portion of s5--not at the beginning, and not at the end of it.

I agree. But from the scene between Dru and Spike, which was obviously set during S3, the writers wanted to tell us that Buffy took over Spike's mind since they left Sunnydale in S2, which isn't really true. If she did, he wouldn't have left, knowing that Angelus would kill her. He didn't seem to care about her in Lover's Walk and same goes for The Harsh Light of Day.

There's no doubt he found her hot and enjoyed fighting with her, but I don't think she mattered much to him until S5.
Oct 03 2008 08:53 pm   #8TammyDevil666
What really gets me is the look on his face during "Fool for Love," when they show the flashback of him and Dru.  She's saying how she looks at him and only sees the Slayer.  He had this caught expression on his face, and didn't even really deny it.  It was like he was accepting that it was true.  That was supposed to be after the 2nd season, so maybe that is really when the whole thing started.  Totally off topic, but I shared an elevator at Dragon*Con with the dude that played the Chaos Demon in this episode.  I should have thanked him for breaking Spike and Drusilla up...lol!
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Oct 04 2008 01:03 am   #9Spikez_tart
LOL, loved Riley's reaction to Buffy being defeated by one vampire. After all these years, one vampire is supposed to be a no big deal - Yes Sosa it was a very enjoyable and humbling moment for Buffy who had gotten entirely too big for her britches.

Also, no way that Spike told Buffy the real story - It's one boast after another - "First I got me a gang."  As if.  Angel beat the crap out of him in the flash back following that brag.  Both Spike and Buffy are sharing an emotion here - being high and mighty and now being cut down to size. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 04 2008 02:28 am   #10Guest
Yes, the Dru and Spike scene happens after he went back to her after "Lover's Walk". Dru's already been pissed that they left Angelus to die, then when Spike has a plan, he goes straight back to Sunnydale? like he couldn't find a witch between here and Brazil.......then, he comes back to Brazil with the tale of fighting WITH Buffy and Angel the "bad Daddy", and with Dru's visions, she sees him as truly lost. So, since Dru blames the break-up on the Slayer, Spike does, too, and goes for the Gem so he can kill her on her own turf........and LETS Buffy pull that ring off his finger. The way they choreographed it, Spike wasn't trapped when Buffy was pulling off the ring. He stopped fighting. Might have just been bad choreography, but he wasn't pinned - there was an easy out to that position......but he didn't fight.

And it's been "It's all the Slayer's fault" ever since....

CM
Oct 04 2008 03:11 am   #11slaymesoftly
I agree, CM. It wasn't all about Buffy - but the attraction was there. It was probably Dru's vision that sent Spike back to Sunnydale to kill Buffy (to prove to Dru that she was wrong). And, yes, that "fight" was pretty lame once he'd pissed Buffy off and she went after him.  He didn't even try to protect the ring.  In his mind, he hated her and wanted to punish her for messing up his love life, but in reality, he was already "lost" as Dru would have said.  I see it as being a gradual development of feelings - from lust and attraction (denied vigorously) to reluctant admiration to frustration to a shocking realization that he accepted pretty easily because Dru had already primed him to believe the dream when it finally happened.  We know that it was a retcon because Spike was originally supposed to die when that organ fell on him - but once Joss decided to keep him around, who knows when he decided that Spike's having  a 'thing' for Buffy might be a cool idea?  It's Joss. He could have had an inkling of where he was going with it already and began setting the foreshadowing before Season II ended.  It would be like him to foreshadow all kinds of things that he was considering for later plots. We'd only recognize as hints those things that pertained to something he actually ended up doing with the characters. Who knows what else in those early seasons was meant to foreshadow something that he eventually decided not to use?
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 04 2008 04:29 am   #12Scarlet Ibis
I don't think it's so far fetched for Spike to have had a spark (yes, "spark" of feelings of some sort for Buffy back then.  Love?  Absolutely not.  Lust, a twinge of respect as a fellow warrior, and fascination. 

I don't think Spike went back in Sunnydale during "Lover's Walk" for Buffy at all--he was revisiting the last place that he and Dru had been happy, which coincidentally happened to be where Angel and Buffy were.  He was drunk, and hurt, and more drunk...and then he comes across Joyce, which probably endeared him to Buffy more a bit.  ("If her mum's so smashing, well, maybe, maybe she's a bit of all right" kind of deal).  So when he goes back, that's when Dru tells him he's covered in her.  But she is in fact wrong--Dru had visions of the future, and Spike couldn't have possibly have cared for Buffy as much as he ends up caring for her at that point in time because he was still covered in Dru.  You can't tell me that if Dru had taken him back that Buffy would have been a blip on his radar...But then again, one of the first things Dru ever said to Spike was, "I see what you want--something glowing and glistening...Effulgent."  Then she tells him "you're covered in her" and that he "tastes like ashes."  She sees that this effulgent light eventually kills him--could have given the boy a heads up, but no, that'd have been too easy

And actually, had Spike's plan worked in "Harsh Light of Day," it would have been bloody brilliant--he woul have bagged his third slayer, proved Dru inherently wrong, and been invincible all the while.  As far a plans go, it was a pretty tempting one to, well, attempt to carry out.  Bad choreography--maybe.  But if we're talking about Joss retconning, well, Buffy's had some gaffe's in regards to Spike as well--letting him go, I mean so many, many times.  Like when she had the ring--she could have hurled him into a patch of sunlgiht if she so wished.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 04 2008 06:37 am   #13Guest
(Fight choreography that goes against the instincts a seasoned fighter has learned bug me, but that's me.   )

He didn't go back for Buffy, just for a witch he knew and could manipulate/intimidate, but he did gain another story to blab.

I've thought about writing a HLOD triumph story sometime, just for Spike, because of how many times they tore him down.

Season 4 is when James started whispering in Joss' ear about Spike falling for Buffy, too.

CM
Oct 04 2008 06:41 am   #14Eowyn315
I wonder if Cecily is already Halfrek at this point
It's never specified on the show, but it's been made clear that the writers intended for Cecily to be human at the time. On the commentary track for "Selfless," it's mentioned that the St. Petersburg scene was originally going to be set during the Renaissance, but it was changed because if Halfrek was Cecily, she wouldn't have been alive during the Renaissance.

Here lies the difference between Angelus and Spike.
That difference is also really well illustrated in "Damage," when Spike talks about never looking back at the victims, while Angel couldn't take his eyes off them.

I don't think Nikki wanted to die, I mean she had a son. Same goes for Chinese girl who mentioned her mother before she died. Both slayers had ties to the world. Why is Buffy any different from them?
Maybe the difference isn't just ties to the world - it's that Buffy has people who help her. Maybe the Chinese Slayer's mother was supportive, but Robin would have mostly been a burden. Buffy, on the other hand, has friends who have saved her life plenty of times. We see a clear example in this episode with Riley. If it weren't for him, that vamp could've killed her. If it weren't for her mother, Spike would've killed her in their first fight. It's not really what Spike was getting at with his speech, but I think there's a valuable lesson in there for Buffy - she can't do it alone. We've seen her distancing herself, patrolling alone, thinking less of others' abilities to fight. But defeating the Big Bad is always a team effort, and Glory is no different, and it's a struggle for Buffy right up until the very end to accept that.

I really sympathize with Harmony. She's Anya to Spike's Xander
Huh, I never thought that... I kind of see her as Spike to Spike's Buffy...

So Spike was obsessed with Buffy since S2? Welcome to one of Joss' many retcons.
Well, as others have pointed out, I don't really see it as a retcon, since I think the fascination has been there since the beginning. Spike IS obsessed with Slayers - that's what this episode is all about. His obsession with Buffy starts out as just part of that - pursuit of his third conquest - but over the years, it becomes more personal, and shifts from a predatory to a sexual/romantic obsession. I don't think at this point (the flashback) Spike realizes how deep it goes. Drusilla is seeing something he can't - or hell, maybe even seeing the future, a premonition of what Spike will come to feel.

Yes, the Dru and Spike scene happens after he went back to her after "Lover's Walk".
No, actually, it happens before "Lover's Walk." In that episode, he talks about catching her with the chaos demon.

ETA:
He didn't go back for Buffy, just for a witch he knew and could manipulate/intimidate
No... he didn't go back for Willow, either. He wasn't looking for a witch until he overheard Willow in the magic shop. And he didn't go to the magic shop until he'd gotten well and drunk and set himself on fire - only at that point, when he decides "this is too much," does he come up with the idea for a spell.

I agree with Scarlet - he went back to Sunnydale because it was the last place he and Dru were happy. He was trying to figure out why she'd left him, and regain whatever it was he'd lost that made her stop wanting him.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 04 2008 09:14 am   #15sosa lola
Huh, I never thought that... I kind of see her as Spike to Spike's Buffy...

I meant that Harmony can get as honest and annoying as Anya to insecure Spike/Xander. Spike is talking about killing the slayer, Harmony is telling him that he can't because she always kicks his ass. Kinda like Anya in S4 who always tells Xander that he's less than his friends to the point that she told him they looked down on him. And even though Spike and Xander aren't all that great to the eyes of the world (or others), they are great in the eyes of Harmony and Anya.

I didn't mean it in the sense that Xander abuses Anya (like Spike does Harmony) because that's just silly and untrue. I agree that the physical and emotional degradation Harmony goes through with Spike is similar to the one Spike goes through with Buffy.

Well, as others have pointed out, I don't really see it as a retcon, since I think the fascination has been there since the beginning.

I do see it as a retcon, but as you guys explained and very well may I add , I can deal with it. Like who's Spike sire is. It's not as awful as the retcon where Joyce sent Buffy to an institution.

Oct 04 2008 02:46 pm   #16goldenusagi
Vampires are so underestimated this season.
Hmm.  How much of a role do vampires play in this season?  Just thinking about it, they seem to be sort of a side thing.  We had Dracula and we had this episode, but once Glory takes the stage, there's not much room for vamps.  Seasons 1 and 2 were all about the vampires.  Season 3 the Mayor had vampire minions, and even Adam worked with vampires.  But Glory doesn't care.

Do you really believe that every slayer has a death wish?
I'm not sure.  The Chinese Slayer didn't seem to.  Nikki might have.  I would say Kendra did not.  But I think Faith sort of did.  After she's tortured Wesley and is fighting Angel, she expects to be punished by him.  I read that as just wanting it to end, but I could be wrong.  Obviously the Slayer death wish thing has just been brought up this season.  Yes, we've seen the pressure on Buffy, but only now is it 'a death wish.'  Which of course is put in to lead up to The Gift.

I wonder if Cecily is already Halfrek at this point
I remember seeing a video of JM where a fan asked him about the Cecily/Halfrek connection.  I think he said that originally, they brought back the actress to play Halfrek because she was a good actress to work with.  But when she appeared without the demon face, they threw the "William?" line in at the birthday party.  *goes to look for video*

On the back porch scene:  This is one of my favorite scenes in the whole series.  The first time I watched, I kept playing it back again and again.  And I know there have been many fics set right after FFL, because you just have to wonder how long Spike stayed, if they talked any more, etc.  But what I have to wonder most is:  was Buffy not the least bit concerned he arrived at her house with a shotgun?  She does nothing here, she does nothing after he tries to get the chip out, yet in Crush she disinvites him when he says he's in love with her.  Doesn't an unstable vampire showing up to kill you warrant any sort of reaction?  Does she just brush it off?  Was she too upset about Joyce to realize he was serious at the beginning?

And I loved they way they edited the fight on the subway to Spike's fight with Buffy in the alley.  It's also one of my favorite scenes.  Though it doesn't seem that she should be able to do that, since she winced when she turned around to get the waitress's attention, and screamed when Spike grabbed her wound.  Now she's jumping and twisting and rolling, not 5 minutes later?

Also, I didn't realize when I first watched FFL that during the China scenes that Angel had his soul.  I guess I wasn't paying attention to the dates.  Not until I watched Darla (I wasn't watching Buffy/Angel as it aired) did I get that part.  It was interesting how the scenes were cut, where you wouldn't see that Angel was conflicted if you only happened to watch FFL.
Oct 04 2008 03:58 pm   #17sosa lola
Nikki might have.

Is it because she had a son? Puts more pressure into her job as a slayer? I don't think I know that much about Nikki's character, but she didn't seem like the kind of mom who'd prefer dying and leaving her only son even if he was just another burden on her shoulders.
Oct 04 2008 06:16 pm   #18Scarlet Ibis
I didn't mean it in the sense that Xander abuses Anya (like Spike does Harmony) because that's just silly and untrue. I agree that the physical and emotional degradation Harmony goes through with Spike is similar to the one Spike goes through with Buffy.
No, Xander doesn't abuse Anya--he just sometimes on occasion lowers her self esteem.  How he manages her self esteem (for a long time in s4, Anya thought that she was only Xander's sex partner, and his eyes, she was always socially un-adequate, and therefore, not good enough).  Spike and Harmony in no way compared to Xander and Anya, or Spike and Buffy--not even close.  Harmony knew that Spike didn't love her.  Spike only man handled Harmony twice--he shoved her against a wall in HLoD s4, and in Crush s5.  He staked her, but who cares cause she was wearing the gem.  He never hit her; he never beat her; he never made her feel like less than nothing or made her want to die.  He never kept the fact that they were together a secret.  In s5, when he let her stay with him in his crypt, she knew that he didn't love her then too, and that he was lonely so he wouldn't mind.  She didn't walk in blind on that one.  He never threatened to kill her should she tell anyone about thim.  Ever.  He never did any of those things, so how could those two relationships possibly be compared beyond the fact that Spike was in both of them?  You can't.

Slayers and death wishes

Nikki--I think she might have had a death wish.  The night that Robin sees her and Spike fighting in the park is the same night she died (if the fact she's wearing the exact same clothes, though yeah, isn't the same actress, is any indication).  Why didn't she just go home with her son?  She dropped him off, then went back out into the night, knowing full well that this vampire who had already killed one slayer was gunning for her.

Faith--goldenusagi broguht up some good points.  Faith does eventually have a death wish, but she does get over it, thanks to Angel's help.  In fact, if Angel had been allowed to help her the first time in s3, maybe her whole death wish and killing spree could have been avoided.  He was the only one who could get through to her.

The Chinese Slayer
--how she lost her weapon was totally careless.  Maybe she didn't have a death wish--maybe she was just really off her game, and not prepared for someone like Spike who purposely put himself in life or death situations for the rush.  I don't think she was half the slayer Buffy or Nikki was...I think she may have just been green.  And alone--she was unfortunately alone (well, unfortunate for her, and not Spike).

Buffy getting stabbed in the gut
with her own stake--not a death wish, just careless.  Spike was right about that.  She'd been doing it so long, she thought she was superwoman.  She needed to be knocked down that peg though to remember that she couldn't do it alone.  She did have a death wish in s6, though...but I won't get into that.  S7 she didn't, but I don't think she played the game very smart for the most part.  Could have just been crap writing, though.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 04 2008 07:55 pm   #19sosa lola

(for a long time in s4, Anya thought that she was only Xander's sex partner, and his eyes, she was always socially un-adequate, and therefore, not good enough)

I think Anya used to think that relationships are based on nothing but sex. Remember when she was upset with Xander that they had gone two days without sex since they started dating? Xander had to remind her that relationships are more than just sex. Xander and Anya's relationship in S4 was a switch of stereotype female/male relationship in which Anya was the typical male who went for nothing but sex and Xander was the typical female who thought that men and women should know each other before they engage in sexual relationships.

In S4, both Xander and Anya were putting the other down. Not just Xander. They don't do it on purpose. But they do hurt each other. Xander's loyalty to his friends hurts Anya, who thinks she's the second best to Buffy-Willow-Giles. And Anya's honesty hurts Xander, especially when she tells him that he offers nothing to the Scoobies, he should ditch them because he's a townie and they're in college, and his friends look down on him.

As for S5, so far by my rewatch, both of them are just perfect for the other. They're the cutest relationship at this point, along with Willow/Tara. No problems yet in Paradise.

Spike/Harmony, I see it as an abusive, unhealthy relationship that fits vampires. Spike's actions are selfish and he does hurt Harmony's feelings, he's aggressive with her and insults her and makes fun of her. But you're right. He made it clear that he's not in love with her. He's just using her for sex, and she stuck with him. Doesn't this remind you of Spuffy? Buffy told Spike over and over that she's not in love with him and that she's using him and he still stuck with her. Both Spike (Spuffy) and Harmony (Spike/Harmony) thought that the other could love them back (even though at some points they didn't -Spike in The Gift and Harmony in S5-) but they both stayed loyal to the other and were taken for granted.

Anyway, my comparison was more about Harmony and Anya: They're both honest, to the point that they're blunt honesty touches Spike's and Xander's insecurity.

Why didn't she just go home with her son? She dropped him off, then went back out into the night, knowing full well that this vampire who had already killed one slayer was gunning for her.

It's something I'd see Buffy do as well. Except Buffy would drop Dawn at one of her friends' house and then go after Spike.
 

Oct 05 2008 01:07 am   #20nmcil
As much as Harmony is a plot device - she also plays  the mirror image of Spike's world that is coming.   Buffy's "you're just convenient" is the full circle pay back for his treatment of Harmony - Like most Black Humor, Harmony's relationship with Spike is effective because underneath all the vampire persona, there was a woman that did care and need Spike.  One of the most wonderful Harmony Moments is their "gunshot weapon" scene - her "don't stake me again" (sorry for the paraphrase) is so sad - she comes back to Spike after he stakes her without a second thought.  The metaphor of Buffy's stake to Spike's heart as mirror reflection could not be better. 


Spike/Harmony, I see it as an abusive, unhealthy relationship that fits vampires. Spike's actions are selfish and he does hurt Harmony's feelings, he's aggressive with her and insults her and makes fun of her. But you're right. He made it clear that he's not in love with her. He's just using her for sex, and she stuck with him.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 05 2008 03:27 am   #21Spikez_tart

Spike/Harmony - I think the reason Spike encourages, if that's not too strong a word, Harmony to come back was not for the sex, but to get her to help him kill Buffy.  Just from the way JM played it = are you willing to do anything?  It's Harmony that interprets that to be a request for sex, but they'd just been talking about how Buffy was tracking Harmony down etc. 

Also, Spike blows hot and cold with Harmony - in addition to being insulting, etc. he also plays 20 questions with her and tells her that he was thinking about her during sex, when in fact he was fantasizing about fighting Buffy. 
 

Slayer death wish - maybe they start to wish for death after they've been killing for a while.  Maybe its sleep deprivation? As to Buffy's death wish - perhaps that explains why she never wins a battle until she gets mad - the fight with Sunday - Sunday kicks her butt until she breaks Buffy's class protector umbrella; Spike pretty much wipes the sidewalk with her until he makes a crack about Angel only wanting to have sex with her one time. 

I think the Chinese slayer must have had some problem with her relationship with her mother - hence the apology.  Interesting that she thinks to tell this to the enemy who has killed her.  Nikki Wood always put slaying ahead of son, Robin, a point that Spike uses to get at Robin when he tries to kill Spike.  Perhaps the fact that she is neglecting her son (and endangering him as well by taking him out on a rainy night to kill vampires) is cause for her death wish - thinks Robin would be better off without her?  

Spike/Buffy - the music that's playing when Spike first watches Buffy dancing at the Bronze is indicative of his state of mind - "you brought me to my knees."  I think Spike is on the hook from that moment on, but in true Joss fashion, he lets it build for a long, long time.  I don't believe that Joss didn't know what he was going to do with Spike.  There are just too too many foreshadowings, even in School Hard.  (When Giles says Spike is not an "orthodox" vampire, Buffy says "Maybe he's reform."  for one)   Personally, I think Joss didn't want all his carefully planned plot details to show up on the internet the next day so kept things a secret.   

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 05 2008 09:42 am   #22sosa lola

I think the reason Spike encourages, if that's not too strong a word, Harmony to come back was not for the sex, but to get her to help him kill Buffy.

Which is still using her for his own advantage. Spike didn't have feelings for Harmony, she was just a body to be used. He tolerated her, but he didn't care about her. It didn't help Harmony that she was such an air-head, she couldn't get Spike interested in her. Unlike with Spuffy, Spike's depth and insight helped in getting Buffy interested in him.

I think the Chinese slayer must have had some problem with her relationship with her mother - hence the apology.

I think she meant "Sorry I died."

Nikki Wood always put slaying ahead of son, Robin,

I'm not sure about this. I need to watch Lies My Parents Told Me again.

 

Oct 05 2008 04:51 pm   #23Scarlet Ibis
Which is still using her for his own advantage. Spike didn't have feelings for Harmony, she was just a body to be used. He tolerated her, but he didn't care about her. It didn't help Harmony that she was such an air-head, she couldn't get Spike interested in her. Unlike with Spuffy, Spike's depth and insight helped in getting Buffy interested in him.
He actually invites her to stay for the company and the sex, and not to help him kill Buffy.  That doesn't come up until OoMM.  And it's not like she didn't know/wasn't okay with the sex.  A lot of people who have broken up have sex with each other.  He didn't trick her or anything...I don't think he didn't care about her--he just didn't care about her as much as Dru or Buffy--not even close.  If he really didn't care, he wouldn't have helped her or let her stay with him in the first place.  If you really hate/loathe or vehemently dislike someone, you don't let them live with you just for the sex (or just because your BFF asked you to, Xander   He strongly disliked Spike, sure, but he couldn't have hated him that much.  Off topic, though).
And Spike's depth and insight?  Buffy and Spike were friends--it had nothing to do with depth and insight.  As for why she decided to fuck him, well she was sexually attracted to him.  According to Buffy, that was all it was.

Nikki Wood always put slaying ahead of son, Robin, I'm not sure about this. I need to watch Lies My Parents Told Me again.
She did put slaying before Robin--she told him that "the mission comes first," which is why she didn't keep her dumb ass at home with her son the night she died.  I guess she thought the mission was to fight to the death, even when she didn't have to.  Buffy too--if you've been in the game as long as Nikki and Buffy have, you should know by then to pick and choose your battles (I'm talking about Glory for Buffy).  If you're in a fight that's very probable that you won't win, then hey, how's about not doing it?  Nikki could have stayed home, and Buffy could have started her whole "run away fast" plan long before it came down to the wire.  It would have made sense to have as much as a huge head start as possible, and maybe no one would have had to die.  Glory was as dumb as a rock--she wouldn't have found them (as long as Buffy didn't call Ben, anyway).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 05 2008 06:20 pm   #24sosa lola
Scarlet, I agree that Spike must have wanted company as well as sex when it came to Harmony. Just don't think he cared about her, anymore than he cared about Giles or Xander. (And I'm a huge Spander fan, but this is an episode discussion, so *pout* ) It's just that if Harmony was dusted, I see Spike's reaction like this... "Oh, she's dust... *ponders then shrugs* Oh, well."

(or just because your BFF asked you to, Xander He strongly disliked Spike, sure, but he couldn't have hated him that much. Off topic, though).

Thank you for making my Spander heart happy after I just crashed it Seriously, I think he took Spike in as a thank you to Buffy who (I assume promised him) to swing by Anya's apartment and see if she needed her help, which Anya did.

if you've been in the game as long as Nikki

Do we exactly know when Nikki was called? Again, I need to watch LMPTM, because I can't give an opinion on Nikki until I see her scenes in LMPTM.
Oct 05 2008 06:40 pm   #25Scarlet Ibis
Just don't think he cared about her, anymore than he cared about Giles or Xander.
I'll agree that there were many times that Spike didn't give a piss about Xander, and maybe Giles, but that's a slippery slope too. I don't think it was that cut and dry for any of those three parties.  Xander's saved Spike, Spike has saved Xander, and Giles and Spike hung out together when they weren't being roomates.  They all bonded when Buffy died (and it was wicked unfortunate that her coming back made it all go to hell)...Basically, I don't think Spike felt indifferent to Giles, Xander or Harmony--he felt something (different somethings--but that's not to say sexual somethings for Giles or Xander, but you already know how I feel about that) for all of them.  Friendship, affection, annoyance...Spike's covered in feelings and made of many layers

And Nikki...they gave the impression of her being a much older slayer.  They never say her age, but the first woman who plays her looks wicked old (for a slayer), and then when we see her again, she still looks like she's in her late twenties to early thirties, with a 6-10 year old kid.  A slayer is called when she's a teen, right?   Young and ripe...I just assumed that Nikki had been a slayer for quite awhile.  I don't think a slayer gets called after a certain age.  Women are less swayed to do something I think (over a teenaged girl), which is why I think they're called so young.  A woman wouldn't need or feel obligated to this new "sense of duty" that's thrust upon her, I think.  Less impressionable.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 05 2008 07:12 pm   #26slaymesoftly
Nikki does appear to be an older slayer - both physically and in her demeanor.  I have no idea if it's canon or fanon that slayers who aren't called by the time they're 18 are home free, but if that's the case, she could have already had the child when she was called.  He didn't look very old - 4 to 6, I would say.  It did seem as though she'd been at it for awhile though, and I would guess it doesn't take too many years of risking your life night after night before it gets a little old. Buffy was ready to go when she jumped, in spite of knowing she was leaving friends and family.  Again - fanon or canon - I don't think it's an accident that most girls are called when they are young and impressionable (and, like (senior moment - season II slayer) many have been taken from their families and trained from a very early age.  A grown woman would be much less likely to blindly obey her watcher or the Council.  Plus - think about all those gymnasts - it's not a coincidence that they do that when they are young enough to bend easily and not wise enough to understand that they should be afraid. LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 05 2008 07:32 pm   #27nmcil
A slayer is called when she's a teen, right? Young and ripe...I just assumed that Nikki had been a slayer for quite awhile. I don't think a slayer gets called after a certain age.

Nikki Wood definitely did not fit The Slayer profile, all The Slayers are presented are young accept for Nikki.  One thing that I propose in defense of Nikki is that there is nothing in the script that directly said Nikki took out her son when she encounters Spike.  Spike is stalking her - Nikki could likely have been doing something as simple as taking her son to a specific location -  The whole thing was a backwards reconstruction to allow Wood as part of season 7.  I am really glad that it was done otherwise we would not have had that great Wood vs Spike confrontation in LMPTM.   Not only does it allow for Wood and Spike but it also allowed for Buffy and Giles discussion about Dawn - she would sacrifice Dawn in Season 7 if her duty called for her sacrifice.

I think you are right about Spike and the other Scoobies (how I hate this title)  had Spike not cared on some level, their treatment would not have mattered to him - if you really hate or dislike someone, you generally don't care what they think of you and you don't get "hurt feelings" over them.  Spike would not have been so upset, IMO, or been so emotionally upset, if he had not thought that on some level he was part of their circle.  At least I don't think he would - totally and royally pissed off yes, but crying; no.

Loved how the pool playing scene and the stick reflected the sword from the Chinese Slayer scene and how it all tied back visually to the first cemetery scene - all three scenes repeat the general arm stopped and twisted back to The Slayer.  While Spike does not injure Buffy, he too used the same motions.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 05 2008 07:36 pm   #28nmcil
The World Gymnastic Federations had to change the rules because the female gymnasts were getting so young in the elite competitions -

Does anyone else think that buffy is presented in one of her most feminine and beautiful woman in the  "boy friend care giver" scene?  This is one of my all time favorite presentations of Buffy - I think she looks absolutely stunning in this scene.  Completely different from her looks with Spike, all soft and pleasant and not filled with anger and hatred.  Also, not that it means anything, but she has her hair pulled back and tied like the Chinese Slayer does - she also wears the same shade of clothes that William wears.  It was mentioned how strange that The Chinese Slayer would speak words for her mother to Spike - I have the impression that she is seeing someone else during her death - especially with the Buddha figure so prominent in that scene, more like she is making her transition away from this world.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 05 2008 09:18 pm   #29Spikez_tart
In First Date (s7) Wood tells Buffy that he was 4 when she was killed.   After fighting Spike in the rain, Nikki says

"But remember, Robin, honey what we talked about. Always got to work the mission. (Robin looks down) Look at me. (Robin looks at Nikki) You know I love you, but I got a job to do. The mission is what matters...right? (Robin nods) That's my boy. Come on."

It's not clear what they are doing out at night in the rain, so it could be that Spike is stalking her.  It appears that this is their first confrontation. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 05 2008 09:42 pm   #30Eowyn315
Basically, I don't think Spike felt indifferent to Giles, Xander or Harmony
Eh, Giles and Xander are debatable (although I'd argue that while he enjoyed the company, he wouldn't give it a second thought if they died, except as it would affect Buffy), but I can't believe he cared about Harmony when he was willing to stake her without a second thought. That's the picture of indifference right there. He's willing to give up the sex, the company, whatever he's keeping her around for, just because she won't shut up about France. I think he saw more value in her after he was chipped (since he no longer had minions, she was the only one he could still get to do his bidding), but I don't think he'd care about the loss of her except as it impacted him (no more sex). He drops her like a hot potato when Drusilla comes around - obviously, there's no competition there, but if he'd cared about her, even a little, he'd at least let her down easy if he was going back to Dru. And look at how little he cares when she's dumping him after the fight - he's ruined his chances with Dru, he knows he doesn't have a shot with Buffy, Harmony's his only option, and he barely notices she's leaving.

Spike would not have been so upset, IMO, or been so emotionally upset, if he had not thought that on some level he was part of their circle. At least I don't think he would - totally and royally pissed off yes, but crying; no.
Wait... when have the Scoobies ever made Spike cry? Buffy is a different story - obviously, by season five he cares about her, and her hurting his feelings would upset him. But when has he ever been that upset over the Scoobies treatment of him? Usually, he IS just pissed off when they insult him, and the only times I remember their words really impacting him are when they tell him to stay away from Buffy or that he has no chance with her, but still, he never cried.

Does anyone else think that buffy is presented in one of her most feminine and beautiful woman in the "boy friend care giver" scene?
I never noticed that scene in particular, but I do think she's at her prettiest in season 5.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 05 2008 10:12 pm   #31Scarlet Ibis
Eh, Giles and Xander are debatable (although I'd argue that while he enjoyed the company, he wouldn't give it a second thought if they died, except as it would affect Buffy), but I can't believe he cared about Harmony when he was willing to stake her without a second thought.
That all depends on what time period we're talking about.  I think he would give a second thought.  And the stake Harmony thing--that was in a moment of stress and frustration.  Earlier in the same ep, he brings her along to keep her from Buffy (who would have staked her), and a few episodes later, she throws him out of their cave--if he really wanted to, he could have staked her again to have a place to stay.  And you're right--he does care very little when she "dumps" him in Crush, but you did point out that in the grand scheme of things (with the Buffy and Dru thing going on at the same time), of course she wouldn't have mattered much in that moment.  She just couldn't compare.  Had that incident occured before Dru showed up, or after all that, it would have played out differently.

Wait... when have the Scoobies ever made Spike cry?
They didn't--I think she meant the scene when he's crying by the tree after Buffy is brought back.  Though it must have stung they kept him on the outside, evevn though they bonded all summer, his tears were over Buffy being back.  But again, I do think he lamented the loss of their friendship to a degree.  Company makes Spike happy, and the loss of good company can only have the opposite effect.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 06 2008 02:37 am   #32Eowyn315
Gah... I had a whole long post typed up, and the internet fairy ate it.

Earlier in the same ep, he brings her along to keep her from Buffy (who would have staked her)
No, he dragged Harmony away from Buffy because she was about to blurt out what Spike was doing in Sunnydale and ruin his plans. It wasn't about protecting her, it was about his own self-preservation.

And the stake Harmony thing--that was in a moment of stress and frustration.
So it's okay to try to kill your girlfriend in a moment of stress and frustration? You talk like staking her was no big deal, but if she hadn't been wearing the gem (and neither of them knew she was until she didn't dust), he'd have dusted her. You can't tell me that's just an "oops." He didn't care enough to try to restrain himself from lashing out at her, and afterward he didn't seem the slightest bit bothered that he'd almost killed her. All he cared about was getting the gem. It's painfully clear throughout the entire episode that he's only tolerating her because he's getting something he wants (at this point, sex). He's ALWAYS using her for something, be it sex, company, protection, or to get fed. He only goes back to her when he's starving, after he's been chipped, and he doesn't even give her a second thought once he finds other ways to get blood. He only "protects" her from Buffy in season 5 because she's willing to do anything in exchange. He doesn't even blink when she dumps him (and no, I don't think he'd have cared more if all the stuff with Buffy and Dru hadn't just happened - we don't ever see him going after her, do we?). Even in Angel season 5, he's only interested in her for sex, otherwise he doesn't want her around. Up until "Harm's Way," when he starts to realize that he's used her the way Buffy used him, I don't think he EVER cared about her.

We've seen what Spike is like when he cares about someone, and this is the polar opposite.

But again, I do think he lamented the loss of their friendship to a degree. Company makes Spike happy, and the loss of good company can only have the opposite effect.
I agree, but there's a difference between friendship and company. Friendship means wanting a relationship with a person. Company just means not wanting to be alone.

I don't think Spike wanted anything more than company in season 4, nor did he see the Scoobies as friends. He wanted to be part of a group, because that's just the way he is - any group, it doesn't matter who, as long as he belongs. But if any of them were to die, I don't think he'd care - he'd probably say, "Bugger... oh, well," shrug, and move on. Even in season 5, he didn't really care about anyone except Buffy. The others only mattered because they mattered to Buffy. He saved their lives because if they died, Buffy would be upset. He still wanted to be part of the group (moreso because it meant being closer to Buffy), but the actual people didn't matter - their rejections only really hurt him when it's Giles telling him there is no way to Buffy, or that he doesn't have a chance with her. It's not until the end of season 5, leading into that summer, when he really gets accepted and becomes friends with them. That's when I think he starts to care about them for them, and not just because of what they mean to Buffy.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 06 2008 03:30 am   #33Scarlet Ibis
So it's okay to try to kill your girlfriend in a moment of stress and frustration? You talk like staking her was no big deal, but if she hadn't been wearing the gem (and neither of them knew she was until she didn't dust), he'd have dusted her. You can't tell me that's just an "oops." He didn't care enough to try to restrain himself from lashing out at her, and afterward he didn't seem the slightest bit bothered that he'd almost killed her.
Not an "oops", no.  He definitely intended to kill her to shut her up.  What I'm saying is that had it not been that situation, he wouldn't have done it.  He thought that he was never going to find the gem--the pivotal part of his plan.  Without the gem, all was lost and so forth.

No, he dragged Harmony away from Buffy because she was about to blurt out what Spike was doing in Sunnydale and ruin his plans. It wasn't about protecting her, it was about his own self-preservation.
I still disagree.  If he was that nonchalant about her, he would have taken her away to shut up her blathering to Buffy, sure, but he could have just as easily staked her when he got back.  He didn't love her, no.  But he did care a little.  Otherwise, why bother opening up to her?  Sharing all of those intimate details?  Details that went beyond a mere "Dru left me."

He wanted to be part of a group, because that's just the way he is - any group, it doesn't matter who, as long as he belongs. But if any of them were to die, I don't think he'd care - he'd probably say, "Bugger... oh, well," shrug, and move on. Even in season 5, he didn't really care about anyone except Buffy. The others only mattered because they mattered to Buffy.
Disagree again--he genuinely cared about Joyce and Dawn.  He mourned Joyce's death, and it had nothing to do with Buffy.  He didn't go out with Dawn during "Blood Ties" for brownie points with Buffy--he didn't even think she'd know about it.  And again during "Forever"--he did it for Dawn.  He likes Dawn.  Those two aside, I do think he felt a kinship with Willow, which is why I think he punched Tara in the nose.  He knew Tara didn't really mean anything to Buffy--it was Willow who was all upset about it.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 06 2008 09:05 am   #34nmcil
They didn't--I think she meant the scene when he's crying by the tree after Buffy is brought back. Though it must have stung they kept him on the outside, evevn though they bonded all summer, his tears were over Buffy being back.

Yes, this is my reference point -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 06 2008 08:01 pm   #35nmcil
Since FFL is one of the most important and favorite episode of so many viewers, what is your favorite scene?  Mine has always the last alley scene - seems Buffy and Spike have their most significant encounters in alleys.  The reason that I primarily love this scene is the splendid acting from JM and SMG, but especially JM.  My other favorite scene is William and Cecily and particularly his lines about his poetry being bad but they are how he feels and his line about being a good man.  One of the reasons that I like both these scenes is how, IMVHO, they show his basic capacity to love and how even in his vamp persona, this ability to give himself over to love has not been removed. 

We all understand that the quality and perceptions of love change as we mature.  Cecily, Dru and Buffy all are loved in different ways and intensity - some see his love as obsessive, some as debilitating, some as self-destructive - all those qualities, at some point, become part of his life and loves.  Ultimately, from my POV, his great capacity to love, well or unwise, brings him his greatest strengths.


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 06 2008 08:04 pm   #36Eowyn315
What I'm saying is that had it not been that situation, he wouldn't have done it. He thought that he was never going to find the gem--the pivotal part of his plan.
Er... I don't see that at all. Why on earth would he think "he was never going to find the gem"?? He had just had a huge breakthrough (literally) in finding that cavern, which was full of various jewels, and he'd only tried ONE that wasn't the gem. There were plenty of other possibilities, so he didn't have anything to be worried about. The only reason he staked Harmony was because she was annoying, which she had been the entire episode. She'd just mentioned France one too many times, and it was Spike's breaking point.

Otherwise, why bother opening up to her?
Spike doesn't seem terribly discriminatory about who he opens up to, particularly when he's drunk. All he knew about Joyce was that she'd hit him on the head with an axe once, and he was telling her the whole sordid tale. He also moaned about it to Buffy and Angel, and he certainly didn't care about them at the time. It seemed like he'd just talk to whoever would listen, so I have no problem imagining him spilling it all to a stranger.

Disagree again--he genuinely cared about Joyce and Dawn.
I didn't say he didn't - but they're not Scoobies. They're just as much outside the group as he is (which is why it makes sense he'd feel a sense of kinship with them, as well as their connection to Buffy).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 07 2008 10:24 pm   #37Guest
I loved Fool For Love and the back porch scene was my favorite, and I was sorry they just ignored it later. Also, for Spike being affected by the Scoobies, there is a scene in the Bronze in Crush where Xander tells spike he's inhis seat and Anya says "I think you hurt his feelings" and later when Xander is talking to Spike, Spike sees Buffy laughing with Ben and mutters "Like you could hurt me" or somethingn like it.

Personally, I don't like harmony at all. I thought she was a steeotype human and a stereotype vampire and I never really cared about her, even in AtS season five. It felt like her emotions were shallow and plastic and she talked like they were deeper because she was a drama queen and used to a lot of attention. I never liked how the writers suddenly threw harmony into HLoD with Spike, like they were trying to make him into as much as a bastard as possible before he was chipped by his treatment of Harmony, his bullying of Brian, his cruel words to Buffy, and even wanting a magic ring to cheat with. honestly, I understand why Spike couldn't respect Harmony at all and I always got the feeling Harmony was the one who latched on to Spike and wwanted something back from him, not that hew as taking advantage of a poor, sweet girl who'd give him anything he wanted.

For Slayers being called early, I don't think it was some conspiracy that younger teens are easier to control, I think it had to do with the ancient time when the Slayer was made. People lived for a much more limited time and many clutures for centuries didn't believe in coddling teenagers r giving someone a childhood. Girls would get married, take care of kids, run a household at 14 years old! Health also deteriorated more quickly before the modern inventions of health care and medicines and younger girls were more in their prime and physically the best choice to be imbued with power. Not until lately were teenage girls expected to be taken care of and treated so gently without responsibility or maturity (just look at Dawn in brat mode up until season seven).
I read some fic a while ago where it involved a girl being eligible as the Slayer once she began to get her period, signalling she was a fully matured woman and capable of having kids, and some girls get it as early as 13.
Oct 08 2008 03:47 am   #38Spikez_tart
Spike's relationship to the gang as a whole and the various members is a very interesting and thorny question.  Would Spike have gone into stalker mode over Buffy if he had been more accepted into the gang?  Strangely, I think Spike is closer to Giles (after Dawn and Buffy) than anyone, in spite of his constant snarky remarks.  When Spike goes to Giles apartment after he's chipped - is he going to get help from Buffy or Giles?  He also runs to get help from Giles when he gets the locator thingie in his back and Buffy is no where around (yeah yeah - he doesn't know that).  Spike doesn't show much interest in anyone else. 

Favorite scene - where Spike and Buffy are working through Spike's fight with Nicky and cutting back and forth to the subway car fight.  Great stuff.  Of course the part where Spike is sitting in the alley crying, just like he did when Cecily dumped is excellent.  Love the scenes where he's telling Buffy his history as a vampire and lying his ass off, too.


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 08 2008 04:29 am   #39Scarlet Ibis
Spike's relationship to the gang as a whole and the various members is a very interesting and thorny question. Would Spike have gone into stalker mode over Buffy if he had been more accepted into the gang? Strangely, I think Spike is closer to Giles (after Dawn and Buffy) than anyone, in spite of his constant snarky remarks.
No, I don't think he would have.  Spike is very much a romantic, and likes to please.  Now, the whole "stalker" thing built up from his infatuation/crush on Buffy that lead to nowhere.  Also, it was new territory (wanting someone like her was all kinds of wrong, as he points out), and he didn't know how to handle it, I think.

I agree about Giles, which makes his (Giles') betrayal in s7 sting a bit.  Spike was definitely hurt/pissed about that (if all of his "Rupert's" were any indication).  Again, they hung out, and probably had a lot of stuff in common (besides the obvious).  Choice of alcohol, music...They definitely bonded in s4, in between s4 and five, and in between s5 and six (I'm talking context clues here).  It's a shame that we didn't get to see those moments...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 08 2008 07:04 pm   #40sosa lola

When Spike goes to Giles apartment after he's chipped - is he going to get help from Buffy or Giles?

I don't think it's much about being close to Giles as "Giles is the oldest, most knowledgeable among the others." Why would Spike go to some kids to help him out? First, Buffy and Willow lived in a dorm, so it was hard to reach them. Xander is an idiot who knows nothing, so it's pointless for Spike to go to him. Giles is a watcher and knows more about the demon world than any of the others. I can see why he'd be the best choice to go to for help.

As for bonding, Spike had bonded with almost all the Scoobies (except probably Tara and Riley) sadly neither side worked on building that bond into a friendship (except Dawn/Spike). So I can see why there was never a real friendship. If Willow put an effort, or Spike put and effort, they would have been friends, same goes for Xander, Giles, Anya, Tara and Riley. But there was no effort. Dawn and Spike could have worked things out in S7, if both showed an interest, which they didn't.

Oct 08 2008 08:03 pm   #41Eowyn315
First, Buffy and Willow lived in a dorm, so it was hard to reach them.
Well, it can't be that hard, since he managed to pay a visit to their dorm room quite easily just one episode earlier. Which could possibly have something to do with why he didn't go to Buffy first - having just tried to kill her best friend, and having tried to kill her the last time she saw him, he probably expected Buffy to be in a "stake first, ask questions later" kind of mood. If he knows he can't defend himself, it's probably much safer to go to the Watcher, whom Spike could at least outrun if it came to that.

I agree with sosa, I don't think it has anything to do with Spike being close to Giles - at this point, the only quality time he's spent with Giles was when Angelus was torturing him, so I can't really see him being willing to help Spike out of the goodness of his heart - only in exchange for information. Spike didn't pick Giles because of friendship, he picked him because he was the most likely to be able to help with the least amount of danger to Spike (or so he thought, but Buffy ended up being there anyway). 
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 08 2008 10:51 pm   #42Guest
I don't think it's much about being close to Giles as "Giles is the oldest, most knowledgeable among the others."
I don't think that's the reason why Spike went to Giles initially--I think he went to Giles not just because he was the smartest, and would be in the most likely position to help him, but also because the last time Giles saw Spike was when Spike saved him from a gruesome death at the hands of Angelus.  Giles is no fool--he must have figured some of that out eventually.

However, I do think that they did in fact bond later.  And technically, Spike did in fact bond with all of the Scoobies--the more...official ones, that is.  The only "second string" Scoobies he didn't bond with were Tara and Riley.  And actually, the opening of season six with the few exchanges we see of them all together, suggests (to me) that he and Tara were in fact on more than just friendly terms as one would interact with a mere aquaintance.  Same with Giles, but I already knew about them and their interactions with one another.

~Scarlet