BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Intervention: Episode Discussion

Nov 07 2008 08:01 am   #1sosa lola

- I imagine Giles spends lots of time at the Summers' residence cooking for the girls and helping out. I think he needs it as much as Buffy and Dawn do. We never stop and think about how lonely Giles is. I felt so bad for him in S4, having no job and no purpose. I understand why he wanted to leave in Buffy vs. Dracula. It is selfish to expect him to stay and play father to Buffy and the others when he could have a better life in his hometown with his family and friends. While it's much better in S5 with Buffy needing him again and the Magic Box, I don't think it's really what Giles wants. I think he stuck in Sunnydale because it’s what Buffy, Willow and Xander want.

- I agree with Buffy that slaying is hardening her and making her emotionally detached from those around her. Maybe because she's who she is less now, before she used to be against being nothing but a slayer in the past, she was able to keep so much of her humanity. Her life, friends, family and boyfriends used to be before slaying. Right now it seems that slaying is becoming first. And Buffy doesn't want that.

- I still can't shake the impossibility of Warren making such a perfect resemblance of Buffy as a robot in a couple of months. Repeat with me, "It's just fiction. It's just fiction."

- SPIKE: Some say it's better'n the real thing.

Who are those "some"? Or is it just a figure of speech? Lol

- There's so much "eww" at Spike enjoying a kiss from a robot. How does it feel to… um… bury his thing into her steel/plastic/whatever… thing? Don't think about it much!

- I love how exasperated Giles gets when Buffy is joking about what he does, it's like when they were still in high school years. Love that some things never change.

- I wonder how Spike enjoys fooling around with the Buffy-bot, I mean she's clearly not Buffy. She just says the lines he fed her, things he wants to hear. Sooner or later, he'll be bored with her just like Warren was bored with April.

- Dawn is stealing as a way to get attention or rebel or act out or what? If it's attention, I think she has too much of it in S5.

- Hee, poor Spike when Buffy-bot reminded him that she was just a robot, he was pulled out of the scene. "Just be Buffy." By complementing his charm, sexiness, strength, evilness, sex techniques all the time? Yeah, that's Buffy. *shakes head*

- Willow's instructions to her classmate about her notes remind me of college. I can't blame her for being paranoid. How many of my stuff got ruined because the person I had lent them to was careless.

- The info about the Scoobies are interesting because it's how Spike sees them through Buffy's eyes. Xander is considered a friend (not best friend) while Anya is identified as Xander's girlfriend and not Buffy's friend. Spike is also aware of her obsession with money. :D

- Xander notices that something is wrong with Buffy, but because of Warren's magical hands, she looks so real, it doesn't cross his mind that she's a robot. Maybe if Spike hadn't interrupted, Xander and Anya would have figured it out? Seeing as nothing is happening to distract them (like Spike being kidnapped later and their need to save him so he won't blurt anything about Dawn to Glory.) So perhaps by having a simple conversation and realizing that Buffy-bot only knows a few details about Xander and Anya, they'd figure out that she's not Buffy.

- It's sweet how nervous Spike is having a normal conversation with Xander and Anya. Unlike what I read in fanfic, where the second Spike appears, Xander starts throwing insults as if they can never have a civil talk.

- It's also normal for Buffy to go patrolling with Spike alone, I can see this actually happening with the real Buffy. She'd want Xander and Anya home as she finishes the job by herself… I'm not sure she'll welcome Spike along though unless something horrible happened like Dawn being kidnapped. I see her (especially in this season) preferring to patrol alone.

- Xander knows that something is wrong with Buffy, he can tell that she's not herself. He just doesn't make the connection that she's a robot. It's obvious he thinks that she's acting weird because of her mother's death, which is an understandable way of thinking and much more logical than a robot Buffy.

- Tara's reaction to Buffy sleeping with Spike is so funny. Way different than her reaction in S6, but it does make sense. She doesn't know Spike well at this point and he still hadn't done something remarkable to earn her trust. He's just a vampire with a creepy obsession for Buffy right now. In S6, Spike had proven to be more than just a mindless vampire. He had kept Dawn's secret away from Glory, he had helped them escape and fight Glory, he had helped them patrol after Buffy's death and had babysat Dawn. All great deeds that helped change Tara's way of thinking regarding him.

- Now Xander's reaction is much more restrained and rational. He agrees with his friends that Buffy sleeping with Spike is wrong, but he understands that Buffy is going through a tough time and he's considerate about it. I think this mature Xander behavior is explained by one reason: Xander is happy now, he has a girlfriend, a job and an apartment. He's in a good place in his life that it makes him able to handle unwanted situations wisely.

- SPIKE: Can't see how it's any business of yours.
XANDER: It is my business because Buffy's my friend.

Foreshadow to Xander's conversation with Buffy in Seeing Red when Buffy tells him that it’s not his business in which he replies bitterly that it used to be.

- FIRST SLAYER: You're afraid that being the Slayer means losing your humanity.

Hmmm S6 Spuffy and her rigid attitude in S7?

- FIRST SLAYER: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding.

Buffy's love for Dawn, her friends and later Spike is blinding her and making her act less of a slayer. So she tries to reject it and pull away from it by cutting herself from her family and not admitting her growing feelings toward Spike.

- Love: Buffy's love for those around her is the main force driving her to save the world and be an effective slayer.
Give: She's a giver, always there when her boyfriends, friends and family need her.
Forgive: She's a forgiver, always known to give those she loves a second chance.

- Willow's info that Warren inserted into the Buffy-bot by Spike's request: Best friend, cute that Spike cares to mention when Willow became gay, and he knows that she's a witch and knows how to use computers.

- Awww, Anya was waiting for Xander to return. But he didn't :(

- Willow also notices the weird behavior of Buffy, but assumes it's due to her mother's death. As we remember how Willow because this selfish, unbearable person after Oz's departure, so misery does change a person.

- It's weird that Xander doesn't have weapons in his apartment… unless he's afraid the landlord would say something about it.

- GLORY: What the hell is that, and why is his hair that color?

LOL!!!! I LOVE remarks like that.

- Ouch. Poor Spike enduring Glory's physical and verbal abuse.

- XANDER: Okay, Buff, it's okay, you're right, you shouldn't have to know everything.

The Scoobies expecting Buffy to know everything , that's one major theme in the show, how everybody expects Buffy to have the answers.

- So all the Scoobies are agreeing on the fact that Buffy is basically different, still they don't consider her a robot… or someone who's not Buffy.

- XANDER: No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact but well-muscled.

It is officially canon that Xander thinks Spike is hot :D

- BUFFY: (firmly) I am not having sex with Spike! But I'm starting to think that you might be.

Spander heart dancing!

- Buffy-bot has super hearing (the same as April's) she went down before she changed her clothes into something fighty.

- BUFFY: (annoyed at him) No, *she*'s a robot. She acts just like that girlfriend-bot that Warren guy made. You guys couldn't tell me apart from a robot?

They did notice that she's different, but perhaps she's so well made –as Anya points out- that it didn't cross their minds that she's a robot. Which is weird because April was so well made as well, yet everybody recognized her as a bot. Is it because she only asks about Warren while the Buffy-bot talked about different things?

- XANDER: Spike must have had her built so he could program her t-
BUFFY: (horrified) Oh god.
WILLOW: Yikes. Imagine the things-
BUFFY: No! No, no imagining. Any of you.
XANDER: (raises his hand) Already got the visual.

Hee, so funny! Poor Buffy, that must be horrible for her. And Xander already got the visual, as he thinks both Buffy and Spike are hot. :D

- Buffy needs to kill Spike for two reasons: the bot and getting kidnapped.

- WILLOW: We don't even know where to look.
BUFFY: (ponders) I know where to start.

No wonder the Scoobies always ask Buffy for answers, she usually have them.

- Giles was the only one who didn't see April, so no wonder he's so shocked by how remarkable and real the Buffy-bot is.

- I wonder what info about Giles Spike had put into her. I think the mistake about pronouncing his name was Warren's fault.

- Spike is either brave or foolish, lying to a god? :D But I can see that it's part of his plan to escape, which is a proof that not every plan of Spike ends badly.

- Look at how well Xander can fight.

- I love how both Buffy and Buffy-bot answer Giles' plea together. I applaud Warren for such a creation. I wish he'd make a robot that resembles me, one that goes to work to do my job. However, I'm not sure I can stand to be around him in his skinless state. 

- Buffy doesn't think the Buffy-bot is a good copy. Yeah, right. :D

- Anya makes a good point about Spike lying to them if he did tell Glory the truth. The sad thing is that no one trusts Spike to be a good guy, not even Dawn.

- Aww to Xander sympathizing with Spike and making Buffy reconsider how her angry approach.

- Spike saying "Will" instead of "Willow", so adorable, it's like he's part of the Scoobies.

- Buffy's show of appreciation toward Spike is wonderful, I think now she's able to see that he's honest about helping them: it's not for money or to get Buffy in bed. He did it for Buffy and Dawn as people. 

- BUFFY: (turns back) The robot is gone. The robot was gross and obscene.
SPIKE: (lowers his head) It wasn't supposed to-

What does Spike mean here? 

Nov 07 2008 01:20 pm   #2slaymesoftly
I think he meant to say "it wasn't supposed to ever be seen" or something like that.  Or, maybe he meant it wasn't supposed to be gross and obscene - that it was as close to the real Buffy as he ever thought he'd get.  Whatever it was, it was clearly somewhere between an apology and an explanation - neither of which Buffy wants to hear ATM.
I thought there was a lot of great stuff in this episode.  Lots of funny lines, understanding and non-judgmental Xander, heroic Spike, sexy wounded Spike, Buffy's grasp of what he did for her - and why, and her willingness to not only believe it, but to appreciate it his motivation.  And then, there's the little hint of Spander...lol
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 07 2008 01:28 pm   #3sosa lola
And then, there's the little hint of Spander...lol

You can do no wrong with a little hint of Spander :D

Whatever it was, it was clearly somewhere between an apology and an explanation

I agree. I think he was trying to justify it, but whatever he was going to say it wouldn't sound good to Buffy. She'll still hate what he did -with the Buffy-bot- but forgive and forget for taking Glory's torture and not confessing to her about the key.
Nov 07 2008 04:00 pm   #4EveryLastDrop
I know a lot of fics have Spike being in love with Buffy in a very real and emotional way in early season five, and I read tons of fics like that and love them. Sticking only to canon, though, I do think Spike was more infatuated and lustful, and then obsessive, before he really found himself in love with her. That quiet statement by Spike that he'll tell Glory who the Key is is when i thought he was really making a choice. Afterward he was sure of himself, cocky (I absolutely loved how he said Glory's ass was lopsided and she put her hands back and looked to check!) and tried for a heroic but unlikely escape, beaten and in the middle of the day. When Spike stands in the elevator and looks at Jinx, ready to fight and never going to tell Glory anything, I think he's accepted a true love for Buffy. if he dies he can't possibly get any credit or get any gratitude from Buffy, but it isn't about him or how he feels, it's about her being alive and with her family and happy, even if he's long gone.

Hee, poor Spike when Buffy-bot reminded him that she was just a robot, he was pulled out of the scene. "Just be Buffy." By complementing his charm, sexiness, strength, evilness, sex techniques all the time? Yeah, that's Buffy. *shakes head*
I think Spike wouldn't have been able to stand the robot for long, when he's realizing how fake it all is and how he wants Buffy, not just her body. he gave all the real life information in hopes of making her more like Buffy, but I think he didn't specify to Warren that he wanted the cosntant praise, that's just how the girlfriend bots are programmed.

Great scene in the cemetery when Spike is trying not to look at the bot and not let Xander figure out what's going on, and then his expression when vamps do turn up after his bluffing. Ha!

I do remember what I said. The promise. To protect her.  If I had done that... even if I didn't make it... you wouldn't have had to jump. But I want you to know that I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again. Do something different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of different ways...
   Every night I save you.

Nov 07 2008 07:48 pm   #5Eowyn315
It is selfish to expect him to stay and play father to Buffy and the others when he could have a better life in his hometown with his family and friends.
Ehh... not so much, I don't think. Granted, I don't think it's Giles' responsibility to play father to the Scoobies, but it was his choice to build those types of relationships with them, and it's pretty upsetting to have someone you see as a father figure (especially this group, with their assortment of daddy issues and abandonment issues) to suddenly decide they don't want to be a father figure anymore. But that's all personal, and if Giles wants to do that, he certainly can.

I do, however, think Giles has a duty to his Slayer - he may have been fired, but Buffy still calls him her Watcher (and presumably, the Council considers him somewhat official, since they never sent a replacement after Wesley). He accepted this life when he became a Watcher, and he had to know that might mean traveling or living away from home for a long period of time. I don't know of anything that says when a Slayer reaches a certain age, she no longer needs a Watcher - in fact, given the Council's desire to control the Slayer, it seems it would be just the opposite - so I really see Giles as shirking his duty both in the beginning of this season when he proposes the idea of leaving and in season six when he actually does. Buffy doesn't get to just call it quits because she misses her old life and doesn't want to be in Sunnydale - why should Giles? He has just as much responsibility to do his duty as she does - perhaps even more, since he ultimately chose to be a Watcher, whereas Buffy had no choice.

I wonder how Spike enjoys fooling around with the Buffy-bot, I mean she's clearly not Buffy. She just says the lines he fed her, things he wants to hear.
I would imagine it would be pretty disappointing after the initial excitement wears off. I almost wish we could've seen more of them together, to see if Spike would start to grow tired of her.

Dawn is stealing as a way to get attention or rebel or act out or what? If it's attention, I think she has too much of it in S5.
In season six, I think she was definitely doing it for attention, but here I'm not sure. Maybe it's a teenage rebellion thing, but maybe it's rooted in her being the Key. Like an "I'm not real, so it doesn't matter what I do" kind of thing? On a much smaller scale, it's a bit like Buffy's behavior in season six, where it's okay to do wrong things because she thinks she's not really herself, and she and Dawn are sisters, after all.

So perhaps by having a simple conversation and realizing that Buffy-bot only knows a few details about Xander and Anya, they'd figure out that she's not Buffy.
I dunno... Willows seems to have a pretty extensive conversation with the bot, and she doesn't figure it out. And she's supposed to be the smart one in the group!

GLORY: What the hell is that, and why is his hair that color?
I love that line. And if you listen closely, she actually says "why is ITS hair that color" - she calls Spike an it! That makes me love it even more. I love the whole bit between them, they're hilarious together.

I think he meant to say "it wasn't supposed to ever be seen" or something like that.
Yeah, I think he meant that it wasn't supposed to be seen by anyone else, just kept in his crypt for fun. He knows it's not real, and thinks of it like a toy. That doesn't make it less gross or obscene, but hey, the poor boy is evil, what do you expect?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 08 2008 12:53 am   #6Scarlet Ibis
- XANDER: No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact but well-muscled.
It is officially canon that Xander thinks Spike is hot :D
- BUFFY: (firmly) I am not having sex with Spike! But I'm starting to think that you might be.
Spander heart dancing!


Well, I just wanted to point out that that Spander street is one way ;)

- Buffy needs to kill Spike for two reasons: the bot and getting kidnapped.
I don't believe she meant it when she said that.  If she did, those are pretty crappy reasons to want to do it.

- Aww to Xander sympathizing with Spike and making Buffy reconsider how her angry approach.
That wasn't such a shocker for me, considering Xander's past history of Mr. Un-Cool.  He's no stranger to loneliness when it comes to women, and if he could have had his own bot (when he needed one--not then of course), I'm sure he would have.  Or a special jacket like RJ :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 08 2008 02:13 pm   #7sosa lola

Buffy doesn't get to just call it quits because she misses her old life and doesn't want to be in Sunnydale - why should Giles?

Good point. I think they both have an advantage and disadvantage to it: Buffy was forced to be a slayer, but she still gets to live with her family and friends. Giles chose to be a watcher, but he doesn't have the option to live with his family... until S6.

Willows seems to have a pretty extensive conversation with the bot, and she doesn't figure it out.

What's so weird about it is that the gang knew April was a robot right away. Maybe the reason they didn't think the same with Buffy-bot was that Buffy was going through a tough time, they expected she'd act strangely. Like when Willow lost Oz she started to act un-Willow-like what with the whining and arrogance. She wasn't like that in high school, even when she always got her heart broken whenever Xander chose another girl over her.

The Scoobies noticed that Buffy was acting weird, they just didn't make the connection that she is a robot.

Well, I just wanted to point out that that Spander street is one way ;)

So? Spuffy started as a one way thing as well. ;)

I don't believe she meant it when she said that. If she did, those are pretty crappy reasons to want to do it.

I think it was the heat of the moment, I don't think she'd actually kill him for it. Heck he did worse things and she still kept him alive.

That wasn't such a shocker for me, considering Xander's past history of Mr. Un-Cool. He's no stranger to loneliness when it comes to women, and if he could have had his own bot (when he needed one--not then of course), I'm sure he would have. Or a special jacket like RJ :P

LOL! I agree! Xander would have loved to have his own sex robot in high school, before he got Cordelia ;)

Nov 09 2008 02:46 am   #8Eowyn315
What's so weird about it is that the gang knew April was a robot right away.
I think the problem is that they wanted to make different jokes in the different episodes. With IWMTLY, they'd already done the episode where no one realizes the person is a robot (Ted), plus they've already got Anya doing the weird speech patterns, so they thought it'd be funnier if, instead of drawing out the suspense of "what is April?" they were all just like "oh, obviously she's a robot" right away, because it's unexpected. (I think Jane Espenson talks about it in the commentary, but I don't have the DVDs handy to listen.)

But of course, with the Buffybot, the humor is mined from the extended mistaken identity thing, so they can't recognize it right away. I guess it's reasonable that most people don't automatically assume their friend has been replaced by a robot when they start acting weird (especially after something like losing a parent), but then again, this is Sunnydale, and it would've seemed a lot more believable if they hadn't all pegged April right away.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 09 2008 04:52 pm   #9Spikez_tart

It is selfish to expect him to stay and play father to Buffy and the others when he could have a better life in his hometown with his family and friends. --- Giles doesn't have the option to live with his family.

 

Bending your life around to take care of your child is what real fathers do. If Giles blows town, leaving Buffy to her own devices then he’s not a bit better than her real father who decides he can have a more fun and interesting life with his secretary in Spain where no one can track him down for those pesky child support payments. Surely an educated person like Giles could find something to do during the day? In Restless, we see Giles dream about Olivia with an empty baby carriage – he has chosen not to have a family of his own, like a mature adult would do.

 

Sooner or later, he'll be bored with her just like Warren was bored with April. – Not so sure that Spike will get bored with the Buffybot. Compare his relationship to the B-Bot with Warren’s relationship with April. April existed to love and service Warren; she was designed to suit his needs. When he found she didn’t suit those needs, he dumped her. The Buffybot exists so Spike can lavish love on her. She would always be capable of doing that. Also, Spike’s no scientific genius who needs someone to talk about building robots and stuff.

 

Dawn is stealing – Her stealing career starts when she steals the black magic book to raise her mother from the dead. Maybe the book contaminates her in some way. She isn’t strictly human anyway, so maybe she’s more susceptible to evil influence.

 

Willow’s notes – why doesn’t the computer whiz take her notes on her laptop?

 

Tara – [Spike] still hadn't done something remarkable to earn her trust. – Actually he has. He busts her in the nose to keep her father from snatching her away. Hitting and love are not too far apart in Spike’s book.  Tara probably doesn't recognize that.

 

First Slayer – Okay this makes no sense. What about in Restless when the First Slayer says “No Friends!” ???

 

Mom’s death – This is not really a good excuse for the Scoobies not recognizing the Buffybot. Buffy might act strangely after her mother’s death (although she doesn’t particularly), but she wouldn’t be acting strangely in a happy, smiling perky sort of way.

 

Spike is either brave or foolish, lying to a god? – Spike is buying time to escape, for Buffy to come and get him, for something. He must figure that if Xander is only knocked out and not killed, that he will go get Buffy and she’ll find him eventually. He’s still brave.

 

Buffy's show of appreciation toward Spike – Okay, I examined this kiss closely and it’s a little bit more than a thank you peck on the cheek. Buffy lingers just a little longer than might be absolutely necessary. 

 

Spander street is one way – Not to say that Spike might not take Xander up on a good time if he was bored.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 09 2008 05:27 pm   #10sosa lola

Bending your life around to take care of your child is what real fathers do. If Giles blows town, leaving Buffy to her own devices then he’s not a bit better than her real father who decides he can have a more fun and interesting life with his secretary in Spain where no one can track him down for those pesky child support payments. Surely an educated person like Giles could find something to do during the day? In Restless, we see Giles dream about Olivia with an empty baby carriage – he has chosen not to have a family of his own, like a mature adult would do.

But Giles isn't Buffy's father. I agree with Eowyn that as a watcher, he should have stuck around. Other than that, he has no obligation to. Besides, he did leave a number for Buffy to call him whenever she was facing something really tragic, she never did (don't blame her) and he did say in the end, that she should have called him when things had gone so badly.

I also disagree that the adult thing to do is choosing Buffy over a family, it might be selfless, but it's not adult. If he still chose to have a family, that's still him being an adult. Part of being adults is having a family of your own, a life of your own. Angel choosing a life in LA was an adult decision that made him happy, Riley choosing the military was an adult decision that made him happy, Spike choosing to stick by Angel's team and become his own champion was an adult decision that made him happy. All of them had grown much stronger and more mature. So choosing Buffy over themselves doesn't make them adults, it's just self-sacrificing. 

Not so sure that Spike will get bored with the Buffybot. Compare his relationship to the B-Bot with Warren’s relationship with April. April existed to love and service Warren; she was designed to suit his needs. When he found she didn’t suit those needs, he dumped her. The Buffybot exists so Spike can lavish love on her. She would always be capable of doing that. Also, Spike’s no scientific genius who needs someone to talk about building robots and stuff.

But the Buffy-bot isn't really Buffy. She just looks like her. Nothing more. She's a robot. Eventually, Spike will get bored, because she's too predictable and obedient. There's no fire in there, nothing that resembles the real Buffy which Spike fell in love with.

Willow’s notes – why doesn’t the computer whiz take her notes on her laptop?

I think in college it's much preferable to write notes on paper. I guess. Besides, you're talking about the kids who didn't get themselves cell phones until S7 *eye roll*

Tara – [Spike] still hadn't done something remarkable to earn her trust. – Actually he has. He busts her in the nose to keep her father from snatching her away. Hitting and love are not too far apart in Spike’s book. Tara probably doesn't recognize that.

Hitting Tara's nose doesn't necessarily mean that Spike cared, it can be taken as he's bored, not to mention how he kept saying that he didn't care about what happened and he praised Tara's dad for his idea on how to control women. No wonder Tara didn't warm up to him, she didn't even say thank you to him. Plus it wasn't remarkable. Taking Glory's torture and not confessing about Dawn, now that's remarkable.

Mom’s death – This is not really a good excuse for the Scoobies not recognizing the Buffybot. Buffy might act strangely after her mother’s death (although she doesn’t particularly), but she wouldn’t be acting strangely in a happy, smiling perky sort of way.

People react differently to pain and loss. It's not always about gloom and sadness, some people joke and act extra cheerful to hide it.  It's not like the Scoobies didn't notice that Buffy was acting weird, they did. They just never thought she was a robot, but they did notice that her behavior isn't normal Buffy behavior.

Buffy's show of appreciation toward Spike – Okay, I examined this kiss closely and it’s a little bit more than a thank you peck on the cheek. Buffy lingers just a little longer than might be absolutely necessary.

But it's still a show of appreciation, I don't think she kissed him because suddenly she had feelings for him. I'd say she was moved by his selflessness and love for Dawn and herself, which is why she chose a deep kiss over a peck on the cheek.

Spander street is one way – Not to say that Spike might not take Xander up on a good time if he was bored.

Actually, that's how most Spander fics start. Spike is bored, Xander is available.
 

Nov 09 2008 07:17 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis
But Giles isn't Buffy's father.
I agree--Giles chose purposely not to have children.  Buffy was his charge, not his daughter.  Which isn't to say he doesn't have feelings for her (clearly, he does), but to let his remaining years revolve around her and her friends isn't something that he has to do.  Even real parents don't do that--once their kid is an of age adult, most parents want them to fly from the nest and be free.

Hitting and love are not too far apart in Spike’s book. Tara probably doesn't recognize that.
That's because it isn't true (the hitting and love thing--besides "Becoming" Pt. 2, when do we ever see Spike hit Drusilla?).  Spike hit her nose to help her, sure, but that's because she was clearly wanted by Willow and in Buffy's circle.  The act itself was more about them than it was for Tara.  But I do think that Tara shouldn't have ignored that since Spike is the only one who was able to put to rest the lie of her being a demon--that was a huge burden released for her at the expense of Spike's brain.

Her stealing career starts when she steals the black magic book to raise her mother from the dead. Maybe the book contaminates her in some way. She isn’t strictly human anyway, so maybe she’s more susceptible to evil influence.
Going to have to disagree--Dawn starts stealing (or tries to ) in "Blood Ties," when she believes she's still just a regular teen, heading to the Magic Box to "steal things" because she was bored with Buffy's birthday.  Okay, yeah, she was really snooping, but still, it doesn't seem a foreign concept to her.  I suspect part of her saying that was to look more cool/more badass to Spike.

Mom’s death – This is not really a good excuse for the Scoobies not recognizing the Buffybot.
Personally, I would have thought she'd taken some kind of drug.  I agree with Sosa that people react differently to death, and yeah, some people do self medicate so that they don't have to feel the pain.  She was carefree and happy and not worried about Dawn...if it had been Buffy, it wouldn't seem so far fetched that she was high as a kite, cause that's exactly how the bot presented herself.

Buffy's show of appreciation toward Spike – Okay, I examined this kiss closely and it’s a little bit more than a thank you peck on the cheek. Buffy lingers just a little longer than might be absolutely necessary. But it's still a show of appreciation, I don't think she kissed him because suddenly she had feelings for him.
I agree with S_T on this one--she gives him this look first--a look in which I think that means she sees him in a new light, and feels that his feelings are sincere, and not just some weirdo obsession.  Also, it is Spike who pulls away first.  If he hadn't noticed that it wasn't the Buffy bot and in fact the real Buffy, and let the kiss go on, I don't know how soon Buffy would have stopped him.  I believe that she would have eventually, but I have no idea how far she was going to take it.  Or maybe, she expected him to have known the difference, in which case, she was right.

Spander street is one way – Not to say that Spike might not take Xander up on a good time if he was bored. Actually, that's how most Spander fics start. Spike is bored, Xander is available.
Sorry, but I totally disagree.  There's no way that Spike would ever be that bored or that lonely.  It just isn't in Spike's personality to do that or feel that way in any sense of the word toward Xander.  Xander, well, there were hints of him being gay for years, mostly because they were initially going to make him the gay character before switching to Willow out of the blue.  Also, I think his comment is more of a...."Spike is cool" comment than sexy.  A part of the reason why Xander dislikes Spike some times is because of his cool factor.  If they'd been friends, he would have looked up to him (openly) as opposed to making snide remarks.  The chip was a reason for him to be able to put down the eternal cool kid, which Xander could not pass up.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 09 2008 07:47 pm   #12sosa lola

--she gives him this look first--a look in which I think that means she sees him in a new light, and feels that his feelings are sincere, and not just some weirdo obsession.

That's what I meant, but didn't say it right. I think she was moved and shocked, finally realizing that Spike actually loved her and cared for Dawn. I just don't believe she kissed him because suddenly she had feelings for him.

There's no way that Spike would ever be that bored or that lonely.

I think he was when he was shagging Harmony ;) He also was when he asked Warren to make a robot that looked like Buffy, which is more pathetic than shagging Xander out of amusement. In S4, Spike is evil, and he'll do such things if that meant entertainment. He already had sex with a guy (Angelus) and it's not like he has feelings for Xander if he does it. He'll get to have sex and also humiliate Xander, plus get him to have problems with Anya. How much fun is that for a chipped, evil vampire stuck in the basement of doom ;)

I guess we'll always disagree when it comes to Spander. I can see it happening and you can't.

Also, I think his comment is more of a...."Spike is cool" comment than sexy.

Weird choice of words if what he meant was cool. Even with Riley, who was a cool guy Xander admired, he never praised him physically. He did once say that Angel was an attractive man, I guess Xander is just as in denial as Buffy when it comes to vampire loving ;)
 

Nov 09 2008 08:01 pm   #13Scarlet Ibis
I think he was when he was shagging Harmony ;) He also was when he asked Warren to make a robot that looked like Buffy, which is more pathetic than shagging Xander out of amusement.
Not really--though one was fake, they both had vaginas.  Being bored with a female is one thing, but being bored with Xander is something else entirely.  And yeah, we can agree to disagree :P  Whatever floats your boat ;)

The cool thing...Riley wasn't really cool though.  He was kind of granola.  I don't think it was a "vamp=cool" thing either--Oz was cool, Angel was cool, Spike was cool...Riley does not factor into that equation.  He wasn't dorky like Xander either, but he most certainly wasn't cool.  I do think it's "cool" that Xander was secure enough in his manhood and sexuality to admit the coolness of the other males around him (e.g. his piece to Oz in "The Zeppo" before he decides to get a car as being his "cool thing." ).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 10 2008 12:55 am   #14Eowyn315
Maybe the book contaminates her in some way. She isn’t strictly human anyway, so maybe she’s more susceptible to evil influence.
Eh, I really doubt it. She's just acting like a normal rebellious teenager. Nothing mysterious or mystical about it.

why doesn’t the computer whiz take her notes on her laptop?
Well, I always took notes by hand in college even though I had a laptop, just personal preference. Depending on the professor, sometimes you're not allowed to have a laptop in class, because you can pretend to be taking notes when really you're chatting online or doing other non-class-related activities. Some professors prefer that you don't have the distraction in front of you so you're more likely to pay attention to the class.

What about in Restless when the First Slayer says “No Friends!” ???
I think in "Restless," the First Slayer was pissed about non-Slayers accessing Slayer power, not that Buffy has friends in general.

Spike is buying time to escape, for Buffy to come and get him, for something. He must figure that if Xander is only knocked out and not killed, that he will go get Buffy and she’ll find him eventually. He’s still brave.
Nah, I don't think he was expecting Buffy to show up. I think he was trying to piss Glory off so that she hit him hard enough to break the chains - which she did. That was his escape plan - get out of the chains and then get the hell out of there. Probably not the most well-thought-out plan ever, but it's Spike, after all.

I think he was when he was shagging Harmony ;) He also was when he asked Warren to make a robot that looked like Buffy, which is more pathetic than shagging Xander out of amusement.
I really don't think that's the same thing. Harmony and the Buffybot were Buffy stand-ins. There's no way in hell you could ever pretend you're having sex with Buffy if you're actually doing it with Xander. And Spike doesn't generally have sex just because he's bored - we never see him go out and look for a quickie just to pass the time, though he certainly could get any woman (and probably any man) he wanted. He only ever has sex when he has feelings for someone and/or is in a relationship. Even Harmony, whom he didn't care for, was still his girlfriend, not a one night stand. So I can't see him ever just thinking, "Gosh, there's nothing to do today, think I'll go fuck Harris." And that really doesn't have anything to do with the pairing, since I can't see him saying that about any other Scooby, either.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 10 2008 01:52 pm   #15sosa lola

Scarlet, I thought Riley was cool. He had this military knowledge, he's a good fighter and he was always sure of himself, I can see why Xander would consider him cool.

I agree with you about Xander being cool, I love that he's okay with having females as his superiors (which is why I'm always shocked to hear some Xander haters calling him an anti-female basing their argument  on his over-protectiveness toward Buffy and Willow. And apparently his treatment of Anya.) I also love how he grew to be okay with who he is in S7 and how he acknowledged that he's not a fighter in S8 when he asked Buffy to pick someone else to accompany her to rescue Willow. If it was S1 Xander, he would have jumped into the portal with Buffy, but by S8, Xander thinks rationally about the situation, knowing that a fellow slayer would do a much better job than him when it comes to saving Willow.

So I can't see him ever just thinking, "Gosh, there's nothing to do today, think I'll go fuck Harris."

Honestly, I never read a fic like that. LOL. Spike usually thinks about screwing with Xander's head -once he notices that Xander gets attracted to the same sex- and part of the sex is to humiliate Xander and have fun of his own tormenting him later about the sex they had, while Xander tries to desperately hide it from his friends and Anya on top. There are so many scenarios, but personally I can see this one happening.
 

Nov 10 2008 10:23 pm   #16Eowyn315
"Gosh, there's nothing to do today, think I'll go fuck Harris."

Honestly, I never read a fic like that. LOL.

LOL, you said, "Spike is bored, Xander is there," and that's what I pictured. And sadly, I have seen fic like that...

As for doing it to humiliate Xander, if it were Angelus, I could totally see it, but humiliation and psychological torment really aren't Spike's thing. Sure, he mocks people a lot when it's the only weapon he has, but he'd much rather just hit things for entertainment. I just don't see him fucking with someone's head like that for fun. He can manipulate people when it suits his purpose (like when he's trying to separate the Scoobies in "The Yoko Factor" or when he taunts Buffy in order to throw her off during the "Harsh Light of Day" fight), but I don't think he gets particular enjoyment out of destroying a person the way Angelus does.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 10 2008 10:32 pm   #17Guest
I don't think he gets particular enjoyment out of destroying a person the way Angelus does.
Right on the money there.  When Spike gets bored, he'll go out and kill something.  There are plenty of ways for Spike to humiliate Xander if he wanted to, and screwing him would not be one of them.  Honestly, I wouldn't even see him purposely stealing Xander's girl just for the hell of it (for mind fuck purposes).  Yeah, that pretty much is Angelus and not Spike...

Also, just to reiterate what was more or less said, Spike doesn't take sex lightly.  So having sex with someone just to screw with their heads?  Really not going to happen.  Especially if it's a guy--Spike's very much into women.
Nov 11 2008 11:44 am   #18sosa lola

As for doing it to humiliate Xander, if it were Angelus, I could totally see it, but humiliation and psychological torment really aren't Spike's thing.

I agree. It's even pointed out in fics where Spike uses sex to hurt Xander (or as a way to hurt Buffy), he knows it's an Angelus method, and he tries it, mostly because he's too pissed at Buffy and because he can't use his fists to hurt her. So he chose breaking one of her friends. During the process, Spike realizes that it's not his thing, he can't go on with it and disturbingly he found himself attracted to Xander, so it's too late for him to change what he did because Xander is already screwed and Spike is as well.

I think it goes to the writer's talent to make the story convincing. For example, I've read many Spuffy fics where Xander is the villain and I get that the writer dislikes him, but for readers like me, who do like him, the writer should write Xander's change from a good guy to a bad guy convincingly... or else it's just character bashing. Because no matter how you feel about this character, Xander is a good guy. And I agree with you that Spike prefers women over men, so the writer should be convincing in that area as well and find a way to make it believable.
 

Nov 11 2008 01:35 pm   #19slaymesoftly
Believability is the key to every fic, sosa.  A really good writer can make just about anything believable for at least as long as the story lasts.  When it's over, you may shake your head and say "that would never have happened", but while you're into the story, you buy it.  If the author can't make that happen, then the story just doesn't work except for readers who already believe that whatever it's about could and should have happened. 
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.