BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

All the Way: Episode Discussion

Dec 10 2008 11:03 am   #1sosa lola

- BUFFY: Bell. Neck. Look into it.

Reminds me of when Xander told Angel that he was going to get him a bell…

- SPIKE: I go where I please and I take what I want, and what's your excuse anyway?

Faith is gonna dig him :D

- SPIKE: I thought you'd had it to the brim with customer disservice.
BUFFY: One-time deal to help out. And I mean straight time. No loop-de-loop mummy hand repeat-o-vision.

I hate that Buffy threw away the possibility of working at the Magic Box again. I know she hates it and it's boring, but not everybody enjoy their job. So many people work at the wrong places because they need the money to feed and clothe their families. Buffy has the advantage of a friend owning a shop, someone who knows about her slayer-ness and issues with being brought back from the dead. So, suck it up and work at the Dull Magic Box. It's way better than Doublemeat Palace anyway.

- It seems that Spike and Buffy have been patrolling together lately, the way Spike said it "Patrolling? Hello," sounded like it often happened. Especially with Buffy's "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow," which wasn't her attitude in S5 when she wanted to do it alone with no one's help.

- Ah, awkwardness, Buffy and Spike not having anything to say and wanting to get out of the room the fastest way possible. Loved Spike's indignant "I got plans of my own," and Buffy's "So much easier to talk to him when he wanted to kill me."

- BUFFY: What happened to Xander?
GILES: He kept poking me with his hook. I sent him over to charmed objects. With any luck he'll poke the wrong one and end up in an alternative dimension inhabited by a 50-foot Giles that squishes annoying teeny pirates.

LOL!!! Poor Giles, that must have been aggravating. :D

- BUFFY: Actually, Spike had a really good idea. You know, maybe I should (quietly) patrol.

It's obvious that Buffy wants to stay away from her friends, and obvious that she enjoys Spike's company more lately (she said so in the previous episode) and what's interesting is that Giles and the others know that she patrols with Spike and are fine with it.

- GILES: Besides, it's Halloween, it's the one time of the year that supernatural threats give it a well-deserved rest. As should you.

This is an info Spike knows about, yet he suggests patrolling to Buffy. So, his idea of going out to patrol is more about him and Buffy hanging out, which is why he was quite upset she blew him off.

- With the way Giles is so tired and groans at Anya's enthusiasm for another crowded costumers night, now I know who made the Magic Box a success.

- WILLOW: Or I could whip up a jaunty self-cleaning incantation, it'll be like Fantasia.
GILES: We all know how splendidly that turned out for Mickey. (gives Willow a broom and dustpan)

Go, Giles! I wish you never left… I wonder how it'd have changed for Willow if Giles stuck around.

- Xander's fascinated staring at Anya's dance of capitalist superiority and his low "I'm gonna marry that girl" shows clearly that his reasons for leaving her aren't because of her, or because he's not in love with her, they're mostly because of him, which he did make clear in Hell's Bells.

- XANDER: (softly) I'm gonna marry that girl.
BUFFY: What?! She's fifteen and my sister, so don't ev- (gets it) Oh.

Does that mean that Buffy will have a problem with a future Xander/Dawn pairing?

- The reactions to the news of Xander and Anya's wedding are interesting. Dawn and Tara are so happy for them, Willow is less happy and quite startled, Buffy and Giles are shocked in a parent kinda way as if they think it's too soon for them to get married.

- Aw, love Anya throwing money away for Xander kisses.

- GILES: Unless I blocked it from my memory, much as I will Xander's vigorous use of his tongue.

Giles really doesn't dig the Xan-man, huh? It's obvious how much Xander annoys him since high school years. It's also shown in how he feels unexpectedly impressed with Xander's skills at carpentry in S5. He never thought he'd see the day where Xander is skilled at something other than being a smart mouth. :D

- Tara's unhappiness at Willow's magical decoration is a call back to her shock in After Life when Willow almost lost it while doing the spell. Of course, the other person who's unpleased is Giles.

- I don't think Willow doing the decorations was to make Anya feel happy, she only did it to show everybody that she can.

- WILLOW: You're always coming down on me for, for doing magic that couldn't harm a fly. What's your problem?

When? This is the first episode where Tara showed her displeasure of Willow using unnecessary magic.

- Buffy's "Seems like only yesterday you had to pay a girl to date you," is quite a mean thing to say, but, the Scoobies are known to say mean jokes about each other from time to time, and the best thing is they don't take offense.

- DAWN: You're very lucky. Finding a guy like him.

Awww. Dawn and her Xander crush, which I know is over, but still, a sweet thing to say. I also love Xander's reply "Not as lucky as me."

- Buffy doesn't want Dawn to have a sleepover at Janice's, why did she agree in the first place? And now she's trying to use Xander's party and Giles' authority to keep her in the house. Good for Giles saying that it's not up to him and the silent "it's up for Buffy."

- The Xander-Giles talk is adorable, this episode has Giles acting like a father figure to Buffy, Xander and Willow. Something very rare.

- GILES: Ah. Rupert is an exceptionally strong name.
ANYA: (laughs) Ha ha ha! Yeah, if we want our progeny to eat paste and have their lunch money stolen.

Hee :)

- Buffy telling Xander that she'll patrol with Spike and his okay reaction shows that Spike's presence is still okay… I don't think it ever got un-okay.

- Isn't Dawn in ninth grade in S5? I thought grade nine is the freshman year.

- With the way Dawn is always locked up in the house with babysitters and basically treated like a baby, no wonder she got her first kiss at age 15.

- This is the second episode Willow says "spaz", she must have really liked Snyder :D

- Willow and Tara have been together for two years now and Willow hadn't told her about her loser self yet? She must have really resented Computer Willow, which works fine for me, seeing as one of the biggest reasons of Willow's fall is how much she wants to be special and powerful and far away from that weak, pushover Willow.

- If Tara and Giles had been talking about Willow's increasing magic use, I really wish we've seen a scene. I really love when Tara interacts with the male cast. She had really few talks with Xander, Giles and Spike.

- TARA: What do you want me to do, just, just sit back and keep my mouth shut? If I didn't love you so damn much I would!

What Tara says here is very true. Love is what makes a person interferes and says their five cents when they see their partners or friends ruining their lives.

- I wonder how Buffy would have came into the crypt if she hadn't seen the vampire bites –I'm sure there will be no kicking doors open-  and if Giles hadn't came to Spike's crypt earlier and told Spike about Dawn's rebellious act, that would have been an interesting Spuffy scene.

- Heh, Where did Buffy go to before she went to Spike's place? Minutes or maybe half an hour since she left the house to Spike's crypt, Giles had received a phone call, set orders to the rest of the Scoobies, went to Spike's crypt and then Spike hit the tunnels… and Buffy still didn't arrive at Spike's crypt. Unless, Buffy lied about going to Spike's and just wanted an alone time by herself walking around and pitying her lousy life. She only decided to go to the crypt after she had seen the vampire bites.

- Why is Spike frowning when Buffy tossed him the crossbow? Is he surprised that she knew where he hides his weapons or is he surprised they needed weapons since it's Halloween and no vampires will be at sight?

- Giles got a boost on fighting skills :D Where are all these moves when he, Xander and Willow were fighting those two vampires last season?

- It sucks when teenage girls get swayed by "pretty words" said by some guy. In Dawn's case, it sucks even more because she knows he's a vampire.

- When Justin says that there's something about Dawn, does he mean her keyness or because she's made out of Buffy, which means she carries Buffy's blood?

- Xander doesn't want Anya to bring male strippers, does that mean he doesn't get to go to a strip club? I don't think Anya would mind, she likes to embrace all the human traditions.

- Buffy dumps her responsibility regarding Dawn on Giles again.

- From Willow and Tara's conversation it's obvious that Willow doesn't see a point in their fight, she knows that Tara is upset about the extreme use of magic, but Willow doesn't see anything wrong with that. This is the problem, it's Willow not seeing it as a problem. She thinks they're witches, why only use their powers to fight evil and not for everyday life?

- It didn't look like Tara and Willow had sex in the end, they seemed to just snuggle, which they wouldn't have done if Tara was still upset that's for sure. 

Dec 10 2008 03:34 pm   #2Guest
I agree with you that Willow didn't make the decorations for Anya as she still seems to harbor some not so nice feelings toward her and is pretty wow for Xander marrying her. But I thought the vampire Dawn liked also liked Dawn and he wasn't trying to use her but really liked her, and wanted to make her a vampire to stay and be with him because he can't imagine another way and it seems natural to him, not knowing it would change who Dawn is so much.
Faith and Spike always have me making comparisons, especially when Spike is trying to be good like Faith had tried, still defensive and trying to be independent but wanting other people there but still not totally goody-two-shoes and never will be.
Dec 10 2008 07:57 pm   #3Eowyn315
I hate that Buffy threw away the possibility of working at the Magic Box again.... It's way better than Doublemeat Palace anyway.
Yeah... other than the writers wanting Buffy to be as humiliated as possible, there's really no reason she would choose the DMP over the Magic Box. Sure, the Magic Box may be dull, but you think flipping burgers is fun and exciting? Unless Spike is right and she really does enjoy making herself miserable - which I really don't think is the case. I think she'll settle for miserable, and doesn't try to get herself out of it, but I don't think she actively works to make things worse for herself.

It seems that Spike and Buffy have been patrolling together lately, the way Spike said it "Patrolling? Hello," sounded like it often happened. Especially with Buffy's "Not tonight, maybe tomorrow," which wasn't her attitude in S5 when she wanted to do it alone with no one's help.
Well, in season 5, Spike tended to "help" whether she wanted it or not, so maybe she just got used to him? It is interesting that they're apparently patrolling regularly enough for this exchange, since as someone (Scarlet?) pointed out on the other thread, we don't actually see Buffy on patrol this season until OMWF.

Ah, awkwardness, Buffy and Spike not having anything to say and wanting to get out of the room the fastest way possible. Loved Spike's indignant "I got plans of my own," and Buffy's "So much easier to talk to him when he wanted to kill me."
It is just me, or was this really weird to anyone else? Buffy's hanging out getting drunk with him in the last episode, and now its awkward to talk to him? She hasn't acted awkward around him since "Crush." Any other day, his "rough and tumble" innuendo would've earned him a "gross" or a "Shut up, Spike." Why is she suddenly on edge? Was there some kind of drunken confession (or in Spike's case, I guess it would be reiteration) of feelings that we didn't get to see?

what's interesting is that Giles and the others know that she patrols with Spike and are fine with it.
It's not that surprising. I mean, Spike patrolled with them all summer, so it makes sense that he would continue. He's the one most suited for it out of all the Scoobies, so I doubt they'd object to him going with Buffy. Plus, Giles at least, with his concerns about Buffy, is probably a little relieved that she's not going out alone.

Does that mean that Buffy will have a problem with a future Xander/Dawn pairing?
As long as Dawn's a minor, definitely (and I don't blame her). She might find it awkward if they got together as adults, but I think she'd be okay with it then.

Isn't Dawn in ninth grade in S5? I thought grade nine is the freshman year.
I've always assumed that line was a continuity error, since she says in "Tough Love": "Those monks put grades K through eight in my head. Can't we just wait and see if they drop nine in there too?" which implies that she's in 9th grade at the time. Also, her age matches up with being in 9th in s5 and 10th in s6. (Unless she got held back a year and it was never brought up on the show...)

This is the second episode Willow says "spaz", she must have really liked Snyder
Or Joss really liked that word and (I'm hoping) didn't realize it was offensive to some people.

If Tara and Giles had been talking about Willow's increasing magic use, I really wish we've seen a scene. I really love when Tara interacts with the male cast.
I don't think they have. I think Willow just assumes that because they both independently arrived at the conclusion that Willow's misusing magic. And of course, Willow disagrees with that assessment, so if Tara and Giles think so, it's because they're conspiring against her, not because she has a noticeable problem. I kind of wish Tara and Giles had talked about it, because I think it would have reinforced for both of them the seriousness of the issue - then Giles might done something and Tara wouldn't have been stuck with the choice of "live with it or leave Willow."

When Justin says that there's something about Dawn, does he mean her keyness or because she's made out of Buffy, which means she carries Buffy's blood?
Or... it could just be more "pretty words" to get her to trust him. Doesn't every girl want to be told she's special? No other vampire has ever noticed there was anything special or different about Dawn (even Spike had to read about the Key thing in Giles' journal), so I think he's just bullshitting her.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 10 2008 08:14 pm   #4Guest
If her birthday falls so that she's younger than her classmates it could work.  I was fourteen my freshman year, because at that time the cutoff date was Oct 31 rather than Aug 31.  (my bday is Oct 9th)  So she could be a freshman in season 5. 

maryperk
Dec 10 2008 10:14 pm   #5sosa lola

Yeah... other than the writers wanting Buffy to be as humiliated as possible, there's really no reason she would choose the DMP over the Magic Box.

You've got the answer. The writers wanted Buffy to have it rough without considering the logical choices that Buffy would have chosen.

It is interesting that they're apparently patrolling regularly enough for this exchange, since as someone (Scarlet?) pointed out on the other thread, we don't actually see Buffy on patrol this season until OMWF.

I think she's embarrassed by her juvenile drunken behavior in the last episode and she did express her feelings about her inability to hang out with her friends and that the one person she stands to be around is Spike.


It is just me, or was this really weird to anyone else? Buffy's hanging out getting drunk with him in the last episode, and now its awkward to talk to him?

I assumed that she still patrolled, even if we haven't seen it, it's a given thing. I just never assumed she did it with Spike.

 It's not that surprising. I mean, Spike patrolled with them all summer, so it makes sense that he would continue.

I know that. It was actually me talking to the fanfic writers who always have the Scoobies on Buffy's case whenever she patrolled with Spike, which isn't true according to this episode and obviously other ones; in this episode we have both Xander and Giles -the ones usually objecting over Buffy patrolling with Spike in some Spuffy fanfic- are okay with Buffy patrolling with Spike. 

But I thought the vampire Dawn liked also liked Dawn and he wasn't trying to use her but really liked her, and wanted to make her a vampire to stay and be with him because he can't imagine another way and it seems natural to him, not knowing it would change who Dawn is so much.

I didn't get that vibe from him, he seemed like a jerk who uses nice words to fool naive girls.

Dec 10 2008 10:55 pm   #6slaymesoftly
It is just me, or was this really weird to anyone else? Buffy's hanging out getting drunk with him in the last episode, and now its awkward to talk to him? She hasn't acted awkward around him since "Crush." Any other day, his "rough and tumble" innuendo would've earned him a "gross" or a "Shut up, Spike." Why is she suddenly on edge? Was there some kind of drunken confession (or in Spike's case, I guess it would be reiteration) of feelings that we didn't get to see?

I thought it was the beginning of Buffy's recognizing an attraction to him.  Her mind immediately went in one direction, while he was proposing something quite innocent.  The awkwardness stems, IMHO, from the alcohol-fueled closeness of the previous epi (which could easily be seen as a date) and neither of them being quite sure what to do about it.  She blew him off, which considering that he had every reason to think he was getting somewhere, pissed him off; her muttering about it being easier when he was trying to kill her is a realization that she needs to watch what she says more now.  He loves her; she knows  it; and now, she's spending so much time with him that he's having reason for hope.  She can hurt/anger him in ways she couldn't when all he wanted was to kill her.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Dec 10 2008 10:58 pm   #7Guest
It seems that Spike and Buffy have been patrolling together lately, the way Spike said it "Patrolling? Hello," sounded like it often happened.
I actually interpreted that in the sense that Buffy zoned out- (Buffy: *wide eyes* What?)-she clearly thought he was talking about something else, due to her gutter brain :P

It's obvious that Buffy wants to stay away from her friends, and obvious that she enjoys Spike's company more lately (she said so in the previous episode) and what's interesting is that Giles and the others know that she patrols with Spike and are fine with it.
I think that the Anya/Xander happiness is what got to her.  Anya mentions "finding that one person in all dimensions," and Buffy looks forlorn.  In fact, it's the same forlorn look we see when she's walking by herself on her way to Spike's, and I don't think she was pitying "her lousy life," but being alone.  The camera purposely shows a couple walking down the street, hand in hand, and Buffy sees that.

This is an info Spike knows about, yet he suggests patrolling to Buffy. So, his idea of going out to patrol is more about him and Buffy hanging out, which is why he was quite upset she blew him off.
I don't think he was upset.  What gave you that impression?  He said something like "Just as well--'Great Pumpkin's' on in twenty."  Also?  Halloween isn't always the night off, as we saw in s2 ;)

It didn't look like Tara and Willow had sex in the end, they seemed to just snuggle, which they wouldn't have done if Tara was still upset that's for sure.
Well, they cut the scene.  Who says that snuggling can't be a precursor to sex?  Especially if you're "happy," in bed and snuggling with your lover.

Well, in season 5, Spike tended to "help" whether she wanted it or not, so maybe she just got used to him? It is interesting that they're apparently patrolling regularly enough for this exchange, since as someone (Scarlet?) pointed out on the other thread, we don't actually see Buffy on patrol this season until OMWF.
There whole dynamic changed since s5.  Before she died, she insisted vehemently to her friends that Spike was apart of the team and needed, and they had been hanging out.  Also, she goes to him, so it's not just being used to him and his help, she wants it (then).  And yeah, that was me.  On some thread...

It is just me, or was this really weird to anyone else? Buffy's hanging out getting drunk with him in the last episode, and now its awkward to talk to him? She hasn't acted awkward around him since "Crush." Any other day, his "rough and tumble" innuendo would've earned him a "gross" or a "Shut up, Spike." Why is she suddenly on edge? Was there some kind of drunken confession (or in Spike's case, I guess it would be reiteration) of feelings that we didn't get to see?
I don't think there was a confession, but I do think she just had a serious case of gutter brain, and I don't think Spike meant it as an innuendo.  Though I do think he picked up on her thinking that, which is why he smiled when he said, "Patrolling?  Hello?"

But I thought the vampire Dawn liked also liked Dawn and he wasn't trying to use her but really liked her
I think so too. He didn't have to tell her "pretty words" at that point to make her a meal, which wasn't his intention.  I think he was intending to turn her, had he not been dusted.

~Scarlet
Dec 10 2008 11:54 pm   #8Eowyn315
I was fourteen my freshman year, because at that time the cutoff date was Oct 31 rather than Aug 31.
Possibly, although she was already 14 in "Real Me," and I'd put that episode in early September at the latest. According to Dawn, the Dracula incident was "last week," and that was August, as college hadn't yet started for Buffy. Also, in this ep they talk about going shopping for back to school supplies for Dawn, and Buffy is still shuffling her class schedule around, implying school has only just started or will be starting soon. That means Dawn's birthday is probably in August or earlier, so I highly doubt she missed the cut-off.

And that still doesn't explain her remark in "Tough Love." If she'd just started 8th grade in season 5 (when she became "real"), why would she make the remark about the monks putting 8th grade in her head? Wouldn't she have actually gone through the classes herself, rather than just the fake memories of them? That makes me think she's in 9th grade when she says that.

It was actually me talking to the fanfic writers who always have the Scoobies on Buffy's case whenever she patrolled with Spike
Heh, I think that's probably a losing battle... lol.

Her mind immediately went in one direction, while he was proposing something quite innocent.
Eh... I don't know that that was entirely unintentional, lol. It could just be a problem with the writing, since I'm pretty sure our minds are supposed to go in that direction, too, so it's easy to see Buffy's mistake. But really, if he meant patrolling, why didn't he say that instead of using something that can easily be mistaken for sexual innuendo? The fact that he doesn't seem at all surprised by Buffy's gutterbrain makes me think he knew exactly what he said and was expecting her mind to go there.

I don't think there was a confession
Yeah, I was just kidding when I suggested that. :-P
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 11 2008 12:10 am   #9Guest
why would she make the remark about the monks putting 8th grade in her head? Wouldn't she have actually gone through the classes herself, rather than just the fake memories of them? That makes me think she's in 9th grade when she says that.
I think she meant that they implanted K-8, the grade she's currently in, and she was saying, "Let's wait and see if nine pops up" as in later--as in why bother going to school?  The confusion comes in because her current eighth grade year wasn't over when she said that.  But I don't think Dawn was too concerned about any kind of accuracy at that point.

Her mind immediately went in one direction, while he was proposing something quite innocent. Eh... I don't know that that was entirely unintentional
I think it was.  Spike has a nickname for just about everything.
Dec 11 2008 01:38 am   #10Eowyn315
I think she meant that they implanted K-8, the grade she's currently in
But why would they have implanted the grade she's currently in? She hadn't even started that grade when she was created, so you're telling me that she came into existence with knowledge of the grade she hadn't even started yet? That wouldn't make any sense. I agree with you that Dawn's not concerned with accuracy - but that's because it's ridiculous to think that the monks (who are all now dead) would retroactively drop knowledge in her head once she's been created. Not because she doesn't know what grade she's in.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 11 2008 02:49 am   #11Scarlet Ibis
Not because she doesn't know what grade she's in.
I didn't mean she didn't know what grade she was in--that's retarded.  I meant with how she was phrasing her words--she's emotional and pretty much not giving a damn, and sometimes, in such a state, you might say something that makes no sense, or not much senes.  Unfortunately, the only example I can think of is in "A Christmas Story," even though I feel as if Xander or Wesley may have as well at some point...  Anyway, she was just trying to be sarcastic.  Also, fourteen is eighth grade.  Myself, and most of my friends turned fourteen from September of our eighth grade year and later throughout the fall and winter.  When s5 aired, I was the same age as Dawn (well, I wasn't fourteen till November), and in the eighth grade.  Freshman year, I was fourteen until the third month school was in session.  Michelle Trachtenberg is less than one month older than me, and Dawn (according to imdb.com) was born in 1986 sometime and not '85 like us.  Being an eighty-sixer, it's highly unlikely she would have been a freshmen that year.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 11 2008 04:50 am   #12Spikez_tart
I hate that Buffy threw away the possibility of working at the Magic Box again.... It's way better than Doublemeat Palace anyway. - I think I'd kill Anya if I had to work for her.  Possibly Giles as well.

Halloween night off - Doesn't something bad always happen to Buffy on Halloween?  That whole line is completely ironic.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 11 2008 12:35 pm   #13sosa lola

I don't think he was upset. What gave you that impression? He said something like "Just as well--'Great Pumpkin's' on in twenty."

He only said that because Buffy blew him off and that upset him and drove him to tell her that he had plans as well. He was being indignant.

Also? Halloween isn't always the night off, as we saw in s2 ;)

Yes, but as Spike told Zack or Justin later, it's a rule for vampires not to hunt on Halloween. And that a true rebel won't do it. So, it is to be assumed that it's a slayer's night off.

Well, they cut the scene. Who says that snuggling can't be a precursor to sex? Especially if you're "happy," in bed and snuggling with your lover.

Is Once More with Feeling the next day of All the Way? 'Cause it's possible to tell if they had sex after watching OMWF, if it was the day after Halloween. Anyway, snuggling doesn't always lead to sex. Sometimes lovers just enjoy snuggling before sleeping, and Willow and Tara seemed to snuggle a lot during S5 before they went to sleep. Now if they were Xander and Anya, I assure you that snuggling always led to sex. It depends on the characters.

I think so too. He didn't have to tell her "pretty words" at that point to make her a meal, which wasn't his intention. I think he was intending to turn her, had he not been dusted.

That doesn't make him a good guy. He was luring her with sugary words to make her obedient, Dawn obviously didn't want to be turned and he didn't respect that, so he used the old technique of sweetly talking a girl into doing what the guy wants.

I think I'd kill Anya if I had to work for her. Possibly Giles as well.

Buffy had already worked for Giles (Slayer/Watcher) and still wanted no one to be her watcher but him. I can see how working with Anya can be difficult, but it's still way better than the Doublemeat Palace, don't you think?

Dec 11 2008 02:03 pm   #14Guest
In CA, the cut-off for age is November, or at least it used to be. And I didn't turn 14 in 8th grade until June, a couple weeks before the year ended. Most everyone I knew wasn't having their birthday until the same year, as well. And public schools start the Tuesday or Wed. after Labor Day - the first full week of September. The public college I went to for a semester started classes in the 20-somethings of August. UC Sunnydale would be on the same schedule as the rest of the state schools in those years. Gotta remember, guys, California runs school from September to June. We don't have to allow for snow days, etc. like the rest of the country does. And August is too bloody hot for school!!! Since the writers were living and raising their kids in SoCal, they'd be thinking along the same lines for the show, at least in the back of their minds.

With Dawn already 14 in Sept. of Season 5, she has to be in 9th grade unless she's been held back a year. That's just how school here goes.

CM
Dec 11 2008 02:21 pm   #15Guest
A bit of education trivia - LA County schools have started later than the East because of both the temps and smog levels of August, all the way back to the '50s, when ash could be seen on any light-colored clothing you wore outside. They didn't have AC in all the schools until later in the 90s, so it was literally a health hazard to start academics at the same time as other states. It took a while before some of the districts put all the schools starting Labor Day week, alternating between that week and the week after for years. Now, it would just be the heat as a concern, as we haven't had a smog alert in years - YAY!! I can't tell you what the entire state was up to in the past, but the SoCal region was all on the same general schedule, primarily because of sports. (Ventura County down to San Diego, and east to the desert cities) It's likely the schedule could shift earlier in the future to make the West more competitive with the East on how many weeks of instruction occur before SAT tests and AP tests.

CM
Dec 11 2008 04:03 pm   #16Scarlet Ibis
California runs school from September to June.
So do Chicago schools...Actually, school runs from the last week of August to the first week or two of June.  You can be fourteen throughout the duration of eighth grade.  I and more than half of my class were.  Also, "snow days" don't occur just because it snows.  It has to be like fourteen inches or more of snow, and that hasn't happened in years in Chicago.  Snow days don't occur nearly as often as one not from around these parts may think ;)

He was being indignant.
His tone and expression did not imply indignance--it was more of a *shrug* and an "all right" attitude.  We've seen Spike be indignant, and that wasn't it.

Is Once More with Feeling the next day of All the Way?
Doubtful.  Unless it was a "to be continued," usually the next week of airing meant the next week to somewhat keep up with real time.  Also?  Willow and Tara were very much about leaving research in OMWF so that they could go home and have sex.  They seemed to have a relationship where if they were happy, they'd get down often. I don't see why it's so implausible for a "happy couple" who has sex regularly (maybe not Anya/Xander regular, but so? ) to not have had sex post snuggling under the covers in their bed.  And either way, if Tara had still been pissed off, there would have been no touching more than likely, cause she would have been on the other side of the bed, and not touching Willow at all (e.g. Willow's "Better warm me up" comment).  Or if not that night, the next or whenever.  Tara was pissed, and since we've never had the chance to see her pissed, who knows how long it would have lasted?  And again, the fact that Willow had that right there on top of her dresser, with the no research on the spell and what have you, it's safe to assume she did it before.

That doesn't make him a good guy.
No one said he was a good guy--just a couterpoint to him just wanting to eat her, and not turn her.

ETA:
Also, did no one but me notice the look Buffy gave Spike as she watches him leave?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 11 2008 07:32 pm   #17Eowyn315
Michelle Trachtenberg is less than one month older than me, and Dawn (according to imdb.com) was born in 1986 sometime and not '85 like us. Being an eighty-sixer, it's highly unlikely she would have been a freshmen that year.
Actually, it is quite likely. You just happened to be one of the oldest in your class. Assuming the cut-off date is November 1st, as CM suggested, people in Dawn's class could have been born anytime between Nov. 1, 1985 and Oct. 31, 1986, so 80% of the class would have been an "eighty-sixer." We know her birthday is sometime after Buffy's but before September, so that puts her firmly into that 80%.

Doesn't something bad always happen to Buffy on Halloween? That whole line is completely ironic.
Only every other year. :) Seasons 2, 4, and 6 have Halloween mayhem. Seasons 3, 5, and 7 are presumably quiet, since there wasn't an episode.

His tone and expression did not imply indignance--it was more of a *shrug* and an "all right" attitude.  We've seen Spike be indignant, and that wasn't it.
Not indignant, but I'd say a little defensive. He says, "It's not like I don't already have plans. Great Pumpkin's on in twenty." Well, if you already had plans, why'd you ask her to patrol, bonehead? Clearly, he's just covering his disappointment that she shot him down - he might as well have said, "Well, fine, I didn't really want to patrol with you anyway!" :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 11 2008 09:52 pm   #18Guest
Actually, it is quite likely. You just happened to be one of the oldest in your class. Assuming the cut-off date is November 1st, as CM suggested, people in Dawn's class could have been born anytime between Nov. 1, 1985 and Oct. 31, 1986, so 80% of the class would have been an "eighty-sixer."
Yeah, that's the age range of the eighth graders of my class.  The youngest, actually, was November '86.  So if Dawn's younger than us, unless she started school early, I don't see how she'd be in the ninth grade at that time.

Anyway, don't they mention what year Dawn's in in the comics?  I don't have them anymore, so I don't know.

Only every other year. :) Seasons 2, 4, and 6 have Halloween mayhem.
Yeah, like her birthday (even though that's more or less every year).  At any rate, having two years worth of incidents of some kind in the past, going on patrol wouldn't sound that outlandish.

Not indignant, but I'd say a little defensive.
I'd go with that.  Indignant just sounded a bit...strong ;)

~Scarlet
Dec 11 2008 10:22 pm   #19sosa lola
His tone and expression did not imply indignance--it was more of a *shrug* and an "all right" attitude. We've seen Spike be indignant, and that wasn't it.

I actually meant it like Eowyn, but phrased it wrong. My bad. *blush* But it does mean that it upset him that Buffy blew him off.

don't see why it's so implausible for a "happy couple" who has sex regularly (maybe not Anya/Xander regular, but so? ) to not have had sex post snuggling under the covers in their bed.

There's nothing wrong with having sex after snuggling, I just meant that it's not an always thing. Sometimes, a happy couple snuggle and go to sleep without sex.

Bottom line is, Willow didn't make Tara forget to have sex with her. She only did it to avoid the "pointless" fight they have. She took the easy way out.


Dec 12 2008 12:41 am   #20Eowyn315
Scarlet, it's possible that your school district did things differently, so don't try to compare it to your school.

Let's just, for the sake of argument, say that Dawn was born in July 1986. (She could have been born anytime between Jan - Sept 1986, but that wouldn't change anything.) And let's say that the cut-off date for her district is November 1st, since CM says it's in November for California.

That means Dawn would have turned fourteen in July 2000 (the summer before season 5). The cut-off date means that she has to be fourteen by November 1, 2000 in order to be enrolled in ninth grade, which she is. That would make her eligible for ninth grade. Dawn would have been one of the youngest kids in her class, since all the birthdays from November 1985 through June 1986 would have turned 14 ahead of her, but they'd all be in the same grade.

Does that make sense?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 12 2008 01:24 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
You know what?  I totally confused myself.  In the fall of 2000, I was in ninth grade.  (And I totally blame my overwhelming 18 credit hour semester and finals for that) I kept thinking about the beginning of the year for some reason...

Anyway, it doesn't help that they have a ninth grader, and jeebus H--a friggin' tenth grader being baby sat all of the time.  Honestly, it's still hard to not think of her as being twelve in s5, and fifteen in season 7.  I don't know--maybe they (casting directors) got so used to having twenty-something's play teens that when they actually had a teen to play a character roughly the same age, they decided to have the character regress a few years.  I can't imagine any mom referring to her fourteen year old as "pumpkin belly," and the teen giggling at it.

And I'm spent :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 12 2008 03:23 am   #22Eowyn315
Yeah... considering the way she's written, if you haven't worked it out with the dates, I can see why people (viewers AND the writers, since they apparently couldn't keep it straight, either) would automatically assume she's younger than she is. I think the main problem is that they just never totally adjusted to Michelle Trachtenberg being cast in the role. The original vision was for a much younger (say, 9 or 10 year old) Dawn - who would have needed babysitting and acted as immature as Dawn sometimes does. I can accept it in season 5, since Dawn needed to be kept safe from Glory, so Buffy would be inappropriately overprotective and never let her stay in the house alone. And I think that just sort of became her characterization, and they never bothered to let her grow up.

When you think about it, it seems like a missed opportunity. I mean, what on earth would they have done with a 10 year old Dawn after the Glory arc? It's not like she could really have plotlines of her own - her story couldn't drive an episode the way it does with "All the Way," "Him," and "Potential." At least with a 15 year old Dawn, they could have feasibly integrated her into the Scooby gang... I don't see why they didn't try to do it better.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 12 2008 04:19 am   #23Spikez_tart
it's still way better than the Doublemeat Palace, don't you think? - The DMP gives me chills.  It's almost as scary as Hush.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 06 2009 01:44 pm   #24spikes_wish
there's really no reason she would choose the DMP over the Magic Box.

I think the reason she never took the job up at the Magic Box was that it would have meant all day everyday interraction with her friends- something she clearly wants to avoid throughout the season.
Apr 08 2009 04:50 am   #25nmcil
I ejoyed watching this episode again and seeing how much of foreshadowing was involved - Dawn telling Anya how "lucky she is to have someone like him" (paraphrase) and we have the later episode "HIM" with that High School Jock wearing the Letterman Jacket.  We see Xander almost immediately start to have big worries about how he has gotten himself into - have to love how Giles brings in Anya's history as a Vengeance Demon and Anya talking about children.  You have Buffy talking about the "goodness of the idea" of their love and future marriage, something that she longs for herself.   And of course we have they set up for Giles leaving  - wonderful how Xander speaks up about his going away and leaving her alone even after all that has happened.   We see Willow taking a big advance toward her breakup with Tara and her total addiction in the Willow-Amy Magic Balcony scene.  And we have such a tantalizing glimpse of what a Buffy-Spike relationship could have been, instead of the catastrophe that they  end up with.   Watching ATW and Tabula Rasa together was a nice treat - and it makes for a very sad part of this season to see the end scene between Buffy and Spike contrasted to their bar scene in TR - especially that passionate kissing which we all now know meant so little to a real Love between them.
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