Hee, I only read the first four posts, then I had to stop 'cause I was getting steamed. Did she not foget that Angel all with the soul having signed his away and signed his friends lives over to WR&H? I guess one tends to foget about that.

What about when Angel left Darla and Dru locked up with the associates with his soul. Wouldn't some who cared about everyone not do that?

Angel has is soul forced on him as a curse. Spike went out and fought for his. He wanted to better himself (even though he already did over the years), he wanted to become the man Buffy wanted, what she could be proud of. So he got his soul.

I still think Angel has hidden motives for starting the war with the senoir partners, but Spike jumped along for the ride to help protect the world. Without a soul he tried to save Dawn from Glory on the tower and stayed with her after Buffy's death to keep a promise. Umm, I'm wuite sure Angel wouldn't have done that with a soul. To busy with his life in LA.

Spike is just way better all around. And for her to say he was a better campire too, HA. The man raped innocent girls and killed for the fun of it. Yeah, so much better than Spike, yup. But hey, I do love Angelus. ;)

Yeah, the more I argue with her the more angry I get. It's like she has selective reading or something. I make a point, and she picks out one sentence of that point and forms an argument based on that one sentence.

I think it's important to remember that they are fictional characters and debating opinions is insane. (which is my opinion of course) You can't empirically prove an opinion.  Some people like Angel, some people like Spike, Some people like Angelus, some people don't like any of them.

Some people think vampires are sexy, some don't...you get my point.

Just my 2 cents.

I think Spike was a better souled vampire, Spike didn't need the soul, he was better unsouled than Angel was souled, but I'm not going to carry on a debate with it with a diehard Angel fan.  I'll just shake my head at them and mock them later.

Angel worshippers need to unite... and have something nasty happen to them...

Not the ones who like him for various reasons.... but the ones who think he is the be-all and end-all of vampiric perfection...  Those are Angel-worshippers

I can't help but argue when somone disagrees with me, but when I get to the point where I laugh when I see they have posted a reply I know I'm done arguing.

 I'll just shake my head at them and mock them later.

I will mock them with you. I forgot to add that yes, Spike didn't need his soul. I wish he could have seen that as well as Buffy. And yes they are fictinal but someone people take it to the extreme. I'm not going to argue all the best about Spike with Angel lovers. Though I'd like to point out. My best friend is a Bangel luver, but I broke it down to her on how much better Spike is. She was like what ever. So then I rememded her that Spike fought for his soul and not only for Buffy, but because he thought it would make him a better person, Angel was cursed. She agreed, and now loves Spuffy, yay. *I'm so corny*

Aurelia-

I think Spike was meant to be the "more romantic" of the two vamps.  He knew what he was and didn't try to hide it under another "personality."  He became what he was, as he says himself, because Angel "made him a monster."  I think Spike wins hands down, and here's a link that might help you plead his case should you feel the need to debate an Angel lover again. (though why you would want to, I can't see- they're beyond help.) 

Here's the link:  http://boobtubers.blogspot.com/2006/10/love-makes-you-do-wacky-buffy-vampire.html

Angel with his soul:

·        Left Buffy

·        Didn't to anything to protect Dawn when Buffy died

·        Made deal with W&H

·        Left his own son to the care of W&H

·        Let Dru and Darla eat lawyers while setting them on fire

·        Brought an apocalypse

Spike without his soul:

·        Never left Buffy(except the summer after seeing red but he did come back)

·        Help saving world 2 times (one of which Angelus started the apocalypse)

·        Stayed around to take care of Dawn when Buffy died

·        Fought for his soul because he felt guilty for hurting Buffy did not get cursed for eating wrong girl.

So Spike is better than Angel even without his soul.

Angel with his soul:

·        Left Buffy

·        Didn't to anything to protect Dawn when Buffy died

·        Made deal with W&H

·        Left his own son to the care of W&H

·        Let Dru and Darla eat lawyers while setting them on fire

·        Brought an apocalypse

Spike without his soul:

·        Never left Buffy(except the summer after seeing red but he did come back)

·        Help saving world 2 times (one of which Angelus started the apocalypse)

·        Stayed around to take care of Dawn when Buffy died

·        Fought for his soul because he felt guilty for hurting Buffy did not get cursed for eating wrong girl.

So Spike is better than Angel even without his soul.

Hi I'm not sure if you're still involved in this argument, but I heard something t'other dayu that might help you.

I was listening to the commentary on Angel S5 Episode Destiny, where the *writers* of *Angel* for chrissakes, actually admit that Spike is a better man than Angel, and overall deserves the Shanshu more than the brooding one. Now, if the guys who helped create his character believe this, it's gotta be true.

Hope this helped :D

Spikes_wish

xxx

Just wanted to say that I did agree with Angel that giving up Connor was what was best for him- he was all screwed up in the head, homicidal and suicidal.  He saved his life.  But alas, I could not help myself and commented in that CW lounge thingy.  I'm grossly ashamed at how long it was, but here is a snipet:

... in terms of who was the better champion, clearly Spike was the winner.

Angel, though cursed with a soul, did not choose to do good things until he saw an innocent, fifteen year old girl who happened to be the Slayer.  And even then, all he did was be all cryptic, and help her stake some vamps.  His help in the apocalypses presented in s1-s3 were not all that important.  In fact, the most prevalent threat of an apocalypse during those years was mostly Acathla, which Angelus started in the first place.  He finally leaves, and helps the helpless in L.A.

Then, there is Spike.  Perhaps initially motivated by the wrong reasons, it didn't take him long to adjust to his chip and attempt to fight the "good fight..."   And really, it's a poor excuse to say that Spike only helped because of his chip...  Spike surpassed his demon intuitions in every shape of the word, and chose to become a Champion, and died to save the world (on purpose- Buffy didn't "signal him with her eyes" for him to burn up to ashes in the Hellmouth- he chose to do it).  And because Spike always made a choice on the good things that he did, and they were not forced upon him through a curse, he is the better champion...

He's still the better vampire as well... Angelus did his own thing and was feared, sure, but he's mostly known for being the Scourge of Europe, in which there were four of.  Spike has a chapter all his own as The Slayer of Slayers.

I agree with Aurelia, of course, because you're right.

But all I can think is that Lakers is an atrocious speller.

Okay I have to keep going.

Lakers is a retard. Saying that Spike couldn't love Buffy without a soul, saying that with the chip he was just 'obsessed' with her. 

Hasn't it been pointed out on the show that Spike could love without a sou?

I think Giles said it somewhere, or someone.

I mean, where the hell does he/she get off?

Wow, I hadn't been on that thread in a while.

Yeah, it bugged me that he said Spike was only obsessed with Buffy until he got his soul.

That just doesn't make sense. I mean what he goes and gets his soul and a soon as he does poof instant love.

Unfortunately you will never win the argument.  There are some people who just hate Spike (and not all are Bangel shippers although a good many die hard Bangels don't care for our boy).  I had a similar argument to no avail.  The woman I debated with was completely off the spool when all was said and done (example....Buffy's smile at the end of Chosen was because she was finally rid of Spike and his manipulations.  I suggested that if Buffy was actually like that after all Spike had done for her, for them all, then he was better off without her and her precious Angel was in for a bad time.....meh).  Point is they will twist EVERYTHING Spike ever said or did to paint him in a bad light....I mean EVERYTHING!  They pick and chose "canon"..(Example: Joss has stated on the commentary that  Spike went for his soul and it was NEVER about his chip but her reply was "That's just Joss, not canon...canon was what we saw on the screen and Spike clearly was expecting his chip out, not getting his soul."  I suggested that as Joss IS the show, his commentary has to count as canon and the scene was deliberately smoke screen per his instruction.  Same with the commentary that the "I love you" was real and both were to play the scene as if they really loved each other.....Nope, not according to those folks.  Spike never loved Buffy, it was manipulation and control to feed his sexual desires and to "kill the girl you have to love her" only and Buffy never loved Spike, only Angel.

My advice...just walk away.  My Irish daddy used to say, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and have the world think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."  Let these people keep removing all doubt while we make our points then walk off when we see they are too stupid to see what is in front of them.

Kathleen

OMG, are you serious?  I could see why one would think that Spike intended to get his chip out, but really, it made no sense.  His chip didn't work on her anyway, and if he wanted to make her hurt, he would've kept going in the bathroom instead of leaving, realizing that he had to make a change. Some people (the Spike haters) are tards, so yea, it's no use wasting our breath.  However, it's hard to not defend him... If they're a die hard Bangel, just tell him Angel was a pedophile for falling in love with a little girl, put "LMAO" and then let them be (I don't necessarily believe Angel to be a pedophile- I think it was more because of her purity and innocence and duty as Slayer as opposed to her being the tender age of 15, but some people see it that way.  I just say it to piss Spike haters off ;)