BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Two to Go

May 28 2009 06:49 pm   #1Spikez_tart

Anya continues to help by flashing off and trying to get Andrew and Jonathan out of jail, which demonstrates that she isn't wholly committed to the vengeance gig, despite what Xander may think.  I can't see her helping them out say two years ago.  Why would she?  And, there's more excellent Anya and Xander raking their relationship over the hot coals. 

Willow - instead of tackling Giles and Buffy and anyone else who gets in her way, why doesn't she just tell them to take a nap?  Works fine on the cop.  Per Anya, she's gone into something bigger emotionally (darker?)  I think she now wants vengeance against anyone and anything that ever made her angry or unhappy (Buffy and Giles, for starts). 

XANDER: Whatever. So, can you still sense Willow? Knowing her location'd be a real big comfort right about now.
ANYA: No, I can't. Which means whatever she's feeling, it's gone way beyond simple vengeance. 

Xander is the only one Willow doesn't hurt until the very end when he gets in her way.  This is surprising considering some of the things he did that hurt her when they were younger (Cordelia).  She could certainly get around Giles and Buffy without hurting them, but fights them instead and tortures Giles. 

Lack of money - That semi and the cop car chase scene is just begging for a big messy flame out.  What a disappointment.

Clem - how does he even find Rack?  He's not exactly the epitome of the Big Bad as the fact that he hangs with Spike demonstrates.  Dawn, as usual, is a pain in the neck.  She doesn't even understand what Clem means when he says Rack likes little girls. 

WILLOW: Wanna go back? End the pain? You'll be happier. I'll be happier. We'll all be a lot happier without listening to the constant whining.  Yeah to that, but what happened to Willow feeling sorry for Dawn because she was a big spaz? 

Xander - the I'm so lame stuff is pretty annoying.  He did what he could and he doesn't have superpowers.  Xander coming down on the two nerds is excellent.  He threatens them in Three Stooges style that they understand perfectly. 

Spike's tests - Why is he fighting without his tee- shirt?  Enjoying the view and all, but really it's kind of stupid.  And, do the tests make any sense in context of what Spike is trying to achieve? 

What a Slayer is - Buffy blows this promise.  Willow kicks her butt. 

Giles shows up in a long black coat (Angel and Spike style) and not wearing his glasses.  He must be embracing the Inner Ripper.




If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 28 2009 08:07 pm   #2Guest
Spike's trial is classic Old-World warrior stuff. Greek games were done naked. Gladiators had to earn armor. Flaming fists guy? Vampires are flammable, so there's definitely an element of facing a major fear. And the beetles look like the flesh-eating type. Ow. I just watched this, and I'm blanking on the other trial, LOL.

Dawn knew the general area for Rack's place. It takes someone otherworldly to sense it - a witch, demon, the Slayer...

Uh, yeah, there was no subtlety in showing that Giles was back and meaning business. He got to be a Big Damn Hero that day.

CM
May 28 2009 10:23 pm   #3steffi
I agree with the reference to ancient Greece and Rome.
I think the trials make some kind of sense, because Spike has to go against some things that are really dangerous (like the fire) or take a great will to endure them (like the disgusting beetles). But I think that might not be in question here. I understood it that way that the demon looked for  the nature of Spikes wish after he won all the trials. I understood that he had to proof his general worthyness before the demon even considered to take a look at his wish. Or perhaps it was all in the bad German translation, who knows? ;-)

May 29 2009 12:07 am   #4Spikez_tart
Greek games were done naked. - Damn.  I knew something was missing.  I like the Greek games idea.  I like the Spike naked idea.  They don't really show the second trial, just some big demon and Spike rips his head off and tosses it around.  I think he got the bugs because he said "Bugger" after he found out that flaming hands guy wasn't the only trial.  The bugs were gross, but didn't really fit in with the other two trials.  Afraid he'll get buggered?

Rack's place. It takes someone otherworldly to sense it - a witch, demon, the Slayer...  According to Spike, you have to be into the Big Bad:

SPIKE: I know who he is, he deals in magic. Black stuff, dangerous.
BUFFY: I've been all over downtown and I can't find his place.
SPIKE: Because he cloaks it. You can't feel it unless you're into the big bad - a witch or a vampire or-

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 29 2009 12:48 am   #5nmcil
The bugs were gross, but didn't really fit in with the other two trials. Afraid he'll get buggered?

The beetles are the most important symbols used in his trials - the beetle is the Egyptian symbol of the creator god Khepri - and Spike by going to get his soul and fighting for a soul, not something that is imposed on him like the Angel/Angelus curse is recreating and transforming himself.    Fire is also a symbol of cleansing and resurrection and the symbol of  the male as the Sun force for life  in the cycle of life and death. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 29 2009 12:57 am   #6sosa lola
Anya continues to help by flashing off and trying to get Andrew and Jonathan out of jail, which demonstrates that she isn't wholly committed to the vengeance gig, despite what Xander may think.

I'd say that Xander is disappointed that she became a demon again, but I don't think he ever thought she'd never help them. He didn't consider her just a girlfriend, he'd always seen her as their friends, it's more obvious how he thinks about Anya in Selfless.

Willow - instead of tackling Giles and Buffy and anyone else who gets in her way, why doesn't she just tell them to take a nap? Works fine on the cop.

Because fighting Buffy and Giles is cooler than just putting them to sleep.

Xander - the I'm so lame stuff is pretty annoying.

God, it's as annoying as Buffy's "I'm so alone" whining. No, Xander, you're not useless. No, Buffy, you're not alone. We've solved these issues in a bunch of episodes throughout the earlier seasons. Get over it already!

Spike's tests - Why is he fighting without his tee- shirt?

Because the writers have this silly idea that the fangirls only watch the show for Spike's chest. *eye roll*
May 29 2009 02:12 am   #7Scarlet Ibis
Willow - instead of tackling Giles and Buffy and anyone else who gets in her way, why doesn't she just tell them to take a nap? Works fine on the cop.
To prove a point--that she was better than them, and could whoop either of their asses, which she in fact does.  I found the first part pretty funny, actually, but sorry for Giles.  Poor "Daddy."

Spike's tests - Why is he fighting without his tee- shirt?
I agree with the Greek trials thing.  But come on--he's been pretty naked a good deal of the season.  They always tried to find a way to have Spike with less clothes on. 

Also, when Angel goes through similar trials for Darla's life, he too is shirtless.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 29 2009 02:23 am   #8Guest
Not that I mind Spike with less clothes on, but really, James didn't like being naked all the time.  He even gained some weight in the 6th season just so they would stop asking him to take his shirt off, but it only ended up making him look better.
May 29 2009 06:05 am   #9LisFayte
Because the writers have this silly idea that the fangirls only watch the show for Spike's chest. *eye roll*

That's why I watched it ;)
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings

Come to challengespuffy  post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
May 29 2009 07:55 am   #10sosa lola
That's why I watched it ;)

I only took interest in Buffy -and its fanfic- because I thought that Xander guy was so cute/hot/sexy/aaaaah *g*

So, I'm not better obviously. Heee
May 29 2009 08:10 am   #11Guest
*is shamefaced*  I was first interested because of the hotness that was Angel, I got all sad when he left, but unlike a lot of Bangel lovers out there, I wasn't about to quit the show.  It was just my luck that Spike's prettiness gave me something to watch after that.  Him being nekid was just an added bonus;)

-Tammy
May 29 2009 04:31 pm   #12Scarlet Ibis
Don't be shamefaced Tammy--Angel was hot ;)

I didn't watch because of the nekid pretty, though I didn't mind it at the time either.  Now, I kind of do.  Or at least, it makes me uncomfortable in hindsight, considering...stuff.  But yeah, I have just a general mad love for the character, ever since the second ep of season two :D
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 29 2009 04:38 pm   #13sosa lola
I'm with Scarlet, my love for the characters surpasses my love for their bodies... uhm. Anyway, if the writers are sending the message that using a girl's body to attract viewers is wrong and sexist, they're doing the same thing with the male cast.
May 31 2009 05:19 pm   #14Spikez_tart
they're doing the same thing with the male cast. - True and I for one was grateful.  I'm so tired of having Hollywood pimp "messages" to me.  They cheesecaked Buffy, too, with those short skirts and the wonderbras etc.  So, thanks Joss for characters that are interesting and actors that look good and sexy while they're playing them. 

The beetles are the most important symbols used in his trials  - excellent comments nmcil.  I didn't think the writers had it in them.  Of course, the Egypt connection makes sense; Spike is in Africa.  I was thinking it was more a mysterious, desert Bedouin kind of thing with the primitive cave drawings.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 31 2009 07:57 pm   #15nmcil
I totally hated how the series exploited James Marsters as a sex symbol - sure he is a gorgeous looking male but that has no importance to the power of his story - I personally found it offensive, both to the actor and to the viewers - EQUALLY, if not even more offensive to me was the sexual exploitation of Charissma Carpenter in her last episode - what a pity that the last time we ever see Cordelia the character is objectified as "sexy women" with her blouse opened half way down to her navel.  If both of these series were trying to give voice to the empowerment of women, they failed miserably in this last view of Cordelia - especially after that wonderful episode where Angel is so offended by how the director treats Cordelia as the "worthless stupid sex figure" in her TV scene - sorry I don't remember the title of the episode. 

James Marsters as "eye candy" - really, the character is so much more interesting, in everyway.  Actually, all of the male leads were extremely handsome - take a good look at Tom Lenk's face and Nicolas Brendan (Sp?) is also very handsome.  Point of fact, for my taste in male beauty, Angel was actually the least handsome of all the male leads.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 31 2009 08:50 pm   #16Guest
Hmm, I think Angel comes in second after Spike as the sexiest, but maybe that's just me.  Andrew I don't see as sexy at all, but I agree with Xander.  As for Cordy, I actually think her last episode was the best for her character, she was ruined to me before that, but they made up for it in the end.
Jun 01 2009 03:21 am   #17Scarlet Ibis
I totally hated how the series exploited James Marsters as a sex symbol - sure he is a gorgeous looking male but that has no importance to the power of his story
I agree--with the story and the acting, it wasn't needed at all to keep me (or anyone I'm sure) as a viewer.  If all there was to Spike was good looks, he would have been dust in season two indefinitely.

Charisma...I think that was more about the fact that the last we saw her she was pregnant, and then in hospital gounds, so it was kind of like a "bringing sexy back" kind of deal perhaps.  At least, she didn't seem too bothered by it, since she kept the shirt unbuttoned for interviews and the 100th episode party.

As for male sexiness?  Yeah, I'm going to have to agree that Andrew did not qualify.  Not that he's ugly or anything...There's just, you know, like a scale.  Is someone beautiful, just pretty, sexy, attractive...Hot water isn't boiling water, you know what I mean?  To me, Spike was the sexiest.  Angel was more handsome than sexy (to me).  Xander was...attractive and adorkable, but hardly sexy.  Wes was cute; dark!Wes was sexy.  Ripper was sexy, while Giles was attractive.  William--he'd fall under the adorkable category, but still aesthically gorgeous at the same time.  Wow.  Too much thought into this one...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 01 2009 05:35 am   #18Guest
Charisma has posed nude before, I doubt she cared about showing a little cleavage.
Jun 01 2009 01:33 pm   #19sosa lola


I thought Xander was attractive and cute, he was sexy in S3 and S4 -his body was my perfect male body at those seasons. Even though I know many fans who liked him the best with long hair, I thought he looked better with shorter hair, not too short like S2, but... maybe his S7/S4 hair only messier. He looks so good with messy hair.  

When I first saw Spike, I thought he was average. (I used to read Spander fics before even knowing how Spike looked like. And I think the fact that almost every fic I've read wrote him as the sexiest man alive and dead, made me except something impossible, so I was so disappointed when I saw him) He started to grow on me as I watched more of the show. I think he's got the most beautiful eyes of all the male cast.  And his best season is S4 BtVS.

Giles is SO darn sexy and cute and guuuuuuuuuuuuh! Yes, I have a crush on Giles! He's got the most beautiful smile of all the cast -males and females- and I wish he'd throw away those awful glasses.

Angel has got the best body of all the cast, no question about it. He was his best at S1 AtS. I'm not attracted to his face, I think Giles, Spike and Xander surpass him with their expressive features... I don't know. And I actually like his hair. *hides*

Riley also got a great body, and a cute face. His smile is so cute.

Wesley was adorable in the early seasons, but so sexy in the later seasons.

Andrew was so adorable, even though it took me quite sometime to appreciate his looks. Same with Oz.
Jun 02 2009 03:05 am   #20Spikez_tart
I doubt she cared about showing a little cleavage. - That picture is more like the Grand Canyon of cleavage.  :) 

Andrew is totally sex free.  And, you girls quit drooling.  This is a serious discussion here.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?