Read this teaser for the Season 8 finale.

Willow and Buffy head to New York City to unlock the secrets of Buffy's mysterious scythe, when something goes terribly awry. Buffy is propelled into a dystopian future where there's only one Slayer -- Fray, the title character of Joss Whedon's 2001 series, the first comic he ever wrote. Their uneasy alliance falls apart, leading to the death of a major character from the TV series, while back in the twenty-first century, the Scotland base falls prey to a mystical bomb courtesy of the Biggest Bad-Twilight.

www.tfaw.com/Profile/Buffy-The-Vampire-Slayer%3A-Season-Eight-Vol.-4-Time-Of-Your-Life-TPB___338763

Has anyone read this yet? Does anyone know who dies?

Doesn't Buffy kill evil Willow in the Fray arc? I don't have the comics here with me, so I can't check, but I know Willow was the big bad for that arc. (future Willow)

I haven't read any of the comics, and from what i've read on the net, I don't like what they are doing with the characters. I hate that they turned Willow evil again after she worked so hard in season 7 . I figured it would have been Faith who dies, not one of the core Scoobies.
One question though, which do you like to write better, Evil Willow or Good Willow?

Seeing as how I was never a fan of Evil Willow, I would have to go with good.  I agree about the comics, that makes no sense to me.  Hell, none of it makes any sense to me, I don't care to read them.  If one of the main characters gets killed, I can't say I'm all that surprised.

-Tammy

After reading the first four comics, I knew that S8 was gonna either be retcon city or OOC compared to the television series.  x.x  I mean, jeesh, if it starts that way, it usually only gets worse ... which it did.

I'm not a big fan of the comics period.  With that said I have heard that Willow sends Buffy into the future and yes to unlock the secrets of the scythe.  She meets up with Fray.  It's kinda like a Faith/Buffy theme the early years but if I'm not mistaken and correct me if I'm wrong - Fray and Buffy worked together when Evil Willow is there.  This is way way into the future which made me question how the heck are they still alive to begin with?  Spoiler: Buffy kills Willow in the future.  Willow while back in the past wants to see what is happening in the future before she pulls back Buffy but then decides not to.

So yeah I'm not too big on the comics because they are destroying Season 7.  Although, they could do without Kennedy.  Taking Willow to that level of badness again is simply saying you are running out of ideas it's time to move on...Unless she was pushed or it was brought out by another source then it would make for an interesting read.

But I won't read the comics.  I totally forget where I got this it was one of those ooo I found something that shouldn't be released yet moments.  I got 4 of them and said no way fan fiction by the fans is sooo much better.

Ok, I was wondering which Willow people liked to write about, and which Willow they like to read about, so I created a poll on my LJ, please come and vote, I'm really interested in finding out people's views on this
Lis

lisfayte.livejournal.com/8522.html

Lol Love that one.  I chose all except nerdy because honestly we saw glipses of it, but then it was gone in a split second.  So for me to love that one I would have to have seen more of it.

I chose all except for that one as a writer because you can go either way with Willow.  It depends where your story is going.  Do you need supportive Willow or evil veiny Willow?  Or down the road will it be Goddess Willow?  I tend to write supportive Willow with a side of Goddess however, I'm not opposed to writing a vicious veiny evil Willow.  Just depends on the story.

As for reading I like it blended as well.  I love stories out there where Willow is wrecking havoc as Evil Willow.  Also giving her the added measure of being a Vengeance Demon or something more powerful.  It's intense.  I also love reading stories where it brings a lot of her issues to the forefront.  Because Willow wasn't addicted to Magic.  She was addicted to Power to Control.  To be something she wasn't.  I love stories like that. 

Or maybe it's cuz I think Buffy would have done better without the main core group?  I think so unless they were written differently.  Especially where they see their faults.  The whole lot of them were in massive denial.  This is why when I still see the end of the show I feel it's still not give that air of finale.  It left too many underlying issues because all of them were basically swept under the rug only to be forgotten never resolved.

Yeah, yeah they have these comics but it's just like another fan fiction story to me.  I agree with Guest I read 4 and stopped.  They were just like fan fiction and they're are honestly better fan fiction writers out there than what I read from those comics.

I can't believe I forgot to add VampWillow to the poll, so if you like VampWillow, please comment.  ::kicking myself::

If they are going to kill of one of the major characters, which technically would eliminate Kennedy, since she was really only support character, it could be Dawn, Andrew or Oz - frankly I would go with Dawn, her character is not really doing much for the comic season and unless something of real importance that would change her contributions to the story, she would be the my choice to eliminate - Andrew has been doing a lot in the series and that is often used as a segue to character death - I would hate to see OZ, one of the best characters from all the series be killed of - I LOVE this character and there is so much that could be done with him - In my personal "best scenario" for Comic Season finale- have Kennedy be the that leaves and bring Oz back - Not as a romantic connection with Willow, but Oz as a very great character that can bring in a new and exciting perspective or plot change. 

I have been reading the comic season, can't say I much care for it - and having all those long waiting periods between each comic, makes it "not so pleasant" to keep up with everything thing.  I am always having to go back and read previous volumes -

The Angel After the Fall is a much better comic season - but now with the Angelic arc - I think it is really losing something -

Read this teaser for the Season 8 finale.
That's not from the finale - it's from the Time of Your Life arc, which has already come out. (The "season finale" will be around issue #40, and we're still somewhere in the 20s.) And, as previously mentioned, the "character death" is kind of a cheat, since Buffy kills dark!Willow 200 years in the future, and for all we know, that future won't even happen now that Buffy's seen it and is determined not to let it happen.

There is speculation that there will be another character death in the next arc, though. If it's actually a permanent death this time, then my money's on Giles.

Thanks loads for the clarification - issue for is a long way out still -  I am looking forward to "Retreat Part 2" see what Oz and Giles are  going to come into the arc.

There is speculation that there will be another character death in the next arc, though. If it's actually a permanent death this time, then my money's on Giles.

NOOOOO!!! Not Giles, you know I love me some Ripper. Maybe they will just kill off the stuffy librarian part of him and keep The Ripper :D

Season 8 has been a disaster from day one. It's been the biggest case of character assasination that I've ever seen.

Even something as simple as Dawn losing her virginity they screwed up royally. I can see her having some sort of demon as a boyfriend and even see her having some sort of reaction to losing her virginity because of minor blood loss and her keyness (like the giantism) but having her loose her virginity by CHEATING on her boyfriend and the changes being a curse makes no sense whatsoever.

but having her loose her virginity by CHEATING on her boyfriend and the changes being a curse
Hold up....

Be kind.  Rewind.

So, she cheated on her bf by having sex with/losing her virginity to some other dude, and got cursed by the bf or something for doing that?  And how does making her a giant teach her a lesson?  Well, I guess she couldn't have sex with anyone then, but still...

Splainy?

Nah, nevermind.  There was a good reason I started to ignore those comics...now I remember.

Tangent (only not really)--vamp!Willow was kick ass.

This entire thread only reaffirms why I will never read the comics.  I'm perfectly happy to exclulde them from my personal Buffy canon (no offence intended to those who read/enjoy them).

I couldn't agree more.  There must be a million things wrong with the characters in the comics, they're not the ones I've grown to love.

I would not be surprised if it is Giles - but that would be a change to the very foundations of the series and would eliminate the Adult Mentor model - and while he has not been that active in the leadership role in the comics, I still would like to have an older character role model as part of the series.  Killing off Oz - I would hate that - I even went out and bought the latest cover that features Oz - that is one beautiful piece of art - even if you don't read the comics - I highly recommend you go to local comic book store and purchase this issue along with issue 24 Faith & Giles cover.  Exquisite drawings on both issues.

I am starting some collage work from extra copies I have been collecting. 

Scarlet , Last I heard Dawn changed from a giant into a centaur. And then Xander and Willow had to keep a horse from her when she went into heat  (if horses go into heat) . Season 8 is the worst kind of badfic - they aren't writing it to be badfic and it can't even be seen as funny the way badfic is meant to be. They need to fire the writers and go looking for fanfic  writers to see if they can pull season 8 out of the black hole it's sunk into.

It might be impossible though given the lack of season 8 fic . Given how long season 8 has been going on there should be reams of stories out there but there's actually very little.

It might be impossible though given the lack of season 8 fic . Given how long season 8 has been going on there should be reams of stories out there but there's actually very little.

I think that's cause nobody wants to write much about S8 cause it really does stink. S8 is badfic squared! Everyone is totally OOC . And Spike can't even be mentioned, no one even says his name out loud. He's He that cannot be named. It's like S7 never happened and it really pisses me off, and that's why I stopped reading a long time ago. I'd rather read fanfic, at least they know the characters and have respect for their stories. And anything that has no Spike..well I could really care less about. And the worst thing is , it looks like it'll be dragged out for 2 more yrs maybe, UGH!
 

I don't know about the other writers, but for me personally, I can't bring myself to write a s8 Spuffy, but it has nothing to do with the comics.  Honestly, I just would never tamper with s5 of Ats, cause for me, it was made of supreme W.I.N.  Also, the Spike/Buffy story felt finished (to me) after s7.

But--I agree wholeheartedly that s8 is bad/wrong fan fic in the worst of ways.  If that had been an actual fan fic story by an author, I'm sure it would have garnered all kinds of flames.

Also, I'm not even sure how one could back track and "fix"/rewrite what's happened so far in s8, or sure that any fan fic writer would want to tackle that heap.  At least, I don't want to.

having her loose her virginity by CHEATING on her boyfriend and the changes being a curse makes no sense whatsoever.
Her boyfriend cursed her because she cheated on him and he was pissed. He was a thricewise, which meant she got turned into three different things - a giant, a centaur, and a doll.

I would not be surprised if it is Giles - but that would be a change to the very foundations of the series
Given that he's hardly been around in season 8, I doubt we'd even notice he was gone.

When I first heard there was going to be a season 8, I was incredibly hopeful. Unfortunately they started killing my hopes right off.

I get that her boyfriend cursed her because she cheated. I meant it didn't make sense because  her Keyness was a perfect excuse if they wanted her to shapeshift.It was never explored after season 5 and is a plotline just waiting around to be picked up.

I get that her boyfriend cursed her because she cheated. I meant it didn't make sense because her Keyness was a perfect excuse if they wanted her to shapeshift.It was never explored after season 5 and is a plotline just waiting around to be picked up.

I really don't understand anything lol

So, you say Dawn had a boyfriend, she cheated on him and then he put a spell on her.

Who was the boyfriend and why did she cheat on him?? What about her blood and  keyness?

Was she afraid her maidenhead would unlock his dragon balls? (yeah, I know.... But how else can I say it?? lol)

Mesh~

I'm not even sure how one could back track and "fix"/rewrite what's happened so far in s8, or sure that any fan fic writer would want to tackle that heap.

I did it, guys. I fixed it. :)

I did it, guys. I fixed it. :)

OMG !! I just read this Eowyn. LMAO !! Perfect!! What all real fans of Buffy wish would happen. :) Stop with the madness Joss!

Yeah...I meant something more serious, and not along the lines of crack!fic.  Not that there's anything wrong with that :P

Anyone know of anyone who's done a season 8 rewrite of some kind?  Or anyone plan to do something like that?  Like an episode rewrite, maybe, and not necessarily the whole season, cause that'd be a helluva task :P 

Season 8 issue and arc rewrites - that would be a wonderful addition to the FF works - I would love to have a serious piece done on  Buffy's erotic dreamscape imagery and the train wreck imagery -

Your "fix it Joss Session" is just perfect - an excellent way to deal with much of the Fan Frustration and all done it great connects to the former series and the current comic season.    Loved the Tara bubble line -

I am reading the comics 'cause I just have to have my Buffyverse fix - but I am not liking it - I just can't make an emotional connection to any of it - But the artwork on most of the covers is well worth my $3.99 - especially the Georges Jeanty covers.

I think that I much prefer reading the excellent fan fiction that follows from the series - this comic season is such a different dynamic and mind set for the characters - But, I still am excited about having Oz back in the coming issue - I will try to post some of the best images from the next issue at my flickr site for those that don't get the comics.  Boy would I love to see a Georges Jeanty cover of Spike -

I just wanted to say that season 8--though still Buffy and I love the verse but.... It's really gone down hill.
Joss and the writers think that just because it's a graphic novel, they can do whatever the hell the want..... And of course they can.
It's practically become a cartoon.
Next think you know, Buffy's gonna run over a cliff, drop an anvil on a vamp's head but not fall 'til she looks down.
(OMG I think I may be on to something!!)

Buffy's a lesbian....
They never even hinted at the possibility of her liking the opposite sex in the show.
Now, suddenly, without any warning, she becomes bi-curious. Which, ya know, alotta times is what happens when men repeatedly let you down-- people consider batting for the other team.

But, baseball ain't my point and I have no problem with gays.

What I mean to say is that the comic seems to me to be like Joss's playground. Doing things, writing plots that he normally wouldn't under tighter circumstances.

Think about it. Joss is a guy who obviously has a zen for girl+girl action (what guy doesn't dig that?) and asians which has been made evident in Buffy and Serenity (possibly Dollhouse).
And then, like magic, Buffy just happens to want to try out new avenues with a japanese girl named Satsu. Coinkidink? I think not.

It's like if suddenly the writers of Winnie the Pooh decided that Pooh should be a satan worshipping devil-god who has the hots for Tigger.
It all just seems a little far fetched and outragous to me.

He should seriously consider letting the fiction writers here recreate Buffy.
Season 8 is no way as good as some of the fics I've found here.

Mesh~

LOL, couldn't have said it better myself.  I mean, honestly, if he was going to hook her up with a female, I think Faith would make the most sense.

Ditto Tammy.  If Buffy were to be gay, I could only buy it if she were gay with Faith.

<--feels the same about Spike and Angel.  No other guys allowed :P

~Scarlet

*coughXandercough* =P

*hurlSpanderhurl*

=D

(in sing song voice) Spangel was canon...

Neener :P

~Scarlet

Now, was it really?  Sure, they had something in the past, but other than that, nothing between them was ever really shown.  I didn't see the jealousy that you claimed was there...lol!  Yes, Spander isn't canon, but I bet anything they got naughty while Spike was all tied up in his basement;)

-Tammy

Buffy's a lesbian.... They never even hinted at the possibility of her liking the opposite sex in the show. Now, suddenly, without any warning, she becomes bi-curious. Which, ya know, alotta times is what happens when men repeatedly let you down-- people consider batting for the other team   Exactly. Oh boo hoo she's so lonely, nobody understands her. She was alone in S7, wasn't boinking Spike or anyone else, had a houseful of girls. Coulda switched teams then. And Faith was around, which ITA is the only one that makes sense. Yeah I guess Joss got so much flack for killing Tara off, that he decided to make B bi now. Cause she ain't gonna be killed off. It's the old cliche...the strong chick has to be kinda gay I guess and men are HORRIBLE so they have to become gay all of a sudden...cliche. And Buffy is like a general and she screwed a noncom in her "army" someone who is her subordinate, you could say. How f***ed up is that? Can you imagine if she HAD done that in S7? The shit would have hit the fan , that's why it's going on in the comics.



Think about it. Joss is a guy who obviously has a zen for girl+girl action (what guy doesn't dig that?) and asians which has been made evident in Buffy and Serenity (possibly Dollhouse). And then, like magic, Buffy just happens to want to try out new avenues with a japanese girl named Satsu. Coinkidink? I think not.  My boyfriend and his friends were saying it's another cliche, stereotype thing...Asian women and their puttytang is so AWESOME that it'll turn ANY woman gay,lol   And Joss is a geeky fanboy, so it's like the comics are written for 14 yr. old boys cause that's what they want and like. Never mind that it doesn't make sense.

Her boyfriend cursed her because she cheated on him and he was pissed. He was a thricewise, which meant she got turned into three different things - a giant, a centaur, and a doll.   Yeah the same old same old that went on with Angel. Sex is bad girls and men are SCUM, they'll turn evil on you! *yawn* Boring. God, can't anyone have a healthy relationship in this verse? Wait a minute, forgot who I was talking about. for a minute there.

He should seriously consider letting the fiction writers here recreate Buffy. Season 8 is no way as good as some of the fics I've found here  YUP!! It's good and it's free. I won't spend any of my hard earned money on stuff I consider crap basically. And no offense to anyone who enjoys the comics.

LOL, I kinda love you right now, true on all accounts.

-Tammy

*giggles* Thanx Tammy. I'm a lurker and I never comment on anything, but this has pissed me off so much, I had to vent and get it off my chest. lol Cause man, my fave characters and fave show are being ruined IMO and it just really bothers me that this is the continuation of a really great show.

Sure, they had something in the past,
And that's canon Tammy ;)

And the bulk of Ats 5 was the two of them acting like a couple of old marrieds.  Oh, the essays I've written on that...

For instance, "The Girl In Question," an excellent example, really wasn't about "the girl" at all ;)

Well, we only know what Spike implied that one time, but if nothing was shown, I'm just gonna say it never happened...lol!  I did enjoy their banter, though.  You know me, not a big fan of canon, anyway=P

-Tammy

I've heard they also made Nina (Angel's werewolf girlfriend) bi-curious. They've got thousands of girls that are Slayers hanging around there's plenty of them to make gay or bisexual without making the straight women gay especially women that have shown no real indication that they are interested in same sex relationships. . .

That's just feeds into the stereotypical male fantasy (and probabaly the fantasy of a few gay or bi women who have been interested in a straight woman) that any time you leave two women alone (especially if one is gay ) they're going to sleep together. They don't do that with men. Saying that all straight women want to secretly have sex with another woman is like saying that all gay women secretly want to have sex with men. Both are ridiculous.

Not to mention that it's disappointing that Buffy was doing all the right things and from the looks of it letting Satsu down easy and then the beginning of the next issue they had had sex. Why? Letting Satsu down instead of giving her hope would have been a good idea. And no matter how many times people say that Satsu understood that it was only sex when the supposedly straight object of your affections has sex with you twice, it raises your hopes. Not to mention that when you sleep with your boss any promotions are suspect  as to how they are earned. 

Sleeping with someone who you know is in love with you when you don't return thier affections (even though you may like them ) is wrong. I was disappointed when Spike did it both times and with him at least the first time he was supposed to be evil and the second time could be considered an extreme reaction to being a ghost . It was wrong for him to do it and it was wrong for Buffy . And Buffy is supposed to be an example to these girls unfortunately her example has turned out to be all bad. She isn't policing her own people.

And at least when she slept with Spike he was more like a partner to her than a subordinate . Buffy really hasn't got the mindset to be in charge of more than a few people for a short period of time. The situation in Sunnydale with the potentials was stretching her limits to the breaking point. She does best with a trusted partner (Spike) and occassional help from the Scoobies (especially in research).

The Slayers motto has turned into Want, Take , Have along with a large helping of might makes right. Which doesn't make sense since Faith was considered bad for having that mindset. but now it's right for thousands of young girls?!

One of the first ways they went wrong was in Chosen. The Slayer spell should have been limited to the girls who were actually there and could give thier consent. Given how it was done, Willow certainly could have restricted the spell. That would have still given them plenty of new Slayers to have stories with plus if any had died then they would have to search out the new Slayer called. Given how many years Buffy whined about "the burdern of Slayerness" and not having a choice not to mention how the scene where the shadow men put the slayer power in is depicted as a rape ,it makes no sense for Buffy to take away so many girls . That says to me that they consider bad behavior all right if a woman does it and it should be brushed off or ignored but if a man does it the same behavior is considered extremely wrong. Xander seems to be the only exception to that and Angel gets by a bit by pulling the whole it wasn't me I didn't have my sould dodge.

Willow however successfully sexually assualted Tara (by using the magic equivalent of a roofie to wipe an argument from her mind when it might have kept her from having sex with Willow) and tried to destroy the world but it was all put off as it was the magic except for one small mention by Giles.

The Scoobies are out of thier element. They aren't the heroes any more. They're an overly large organizion with no set moral code and too much power . They've become corrupt. They had situations before where they've behaved as if they had no clue about the consequences of thier actions but now they are doing it on a much larger scale . Even Dawn has succumbed to that in her cheating (with her boyfriend's roommate no less) . And even though she wasn't actually there she has to have known what pain it caused her mother when her father cheated on her. Having her shape shift from a curse cast by her heartbroken boyfriend is one consequence but typical Scooby behavior could have it being brushed off as oh he was a  demon so this just shows I was right to cheat . A better consequence could have her going  back to school and her reputation being in shreds with no decent person wanting to date her because she's a proven cheat and only people who are interested in just sex wanting to be with her.Either that or have her fall deeply in love and then have them cheat on her . Then she'd realize the pain she'd caused.

This has gotten long and Leverage is one. I'm out.

I meant Leverage is on not one.

Ditto to most of that Guest.

Sleeping with someone who you know is in love with you when you don't return thier affections (even though you may like them ) is wrong. I was disappointed when Spike did it both times and with him at least the first time he was supposed to be evil and the second time could be considered an extreme reaction to being a ghost . It was wrong for him to do it and it was wrong for Buffy
The difference here in informed consent.  Harmony didn't believe Spike was in love with her or loved her.  Same with Satsu and Buffy (though at least Spike gave the courtesy of saying publicly that Harmony was his girlfriend--he at least gave her that much respect in giving her that title).  However, the same does not apply for Spike and Buffy.  Not to mention Buffy is (allegedly) supposed to have a moral high grown because of the soul (which is clearly poppycock).

And at least when she slept with Spike he was more like a partner to her than a subordinate .
Yeah, not so much.  I think she considered him a partner in season seven, but mos def not for most of season six.

That says to me that they consider bad behavior all right if a woman does it and it should be brushed off or ignored but if a man does it the same behavior is considered extremely wrong. Xander seems to be the only exception to that and Angel gets by a bit by pulling the whole it wasn't me I didn't have my sould dodge.
That's mostly true, except in the case of Faith (who actually retains the lessons she's learned, whereas Buffy has not), who did time and more or less repented for her sins and past misdeeds, and Angel, well, that difference is only distinguished in Sunnydale.  He refers to Angelus as himself in LA on his own show ;)

Anyway, that aside, "word" big time to your post.  Especially the Dawn bit.  Of course it's more important that her ex was a demon, and not that she cheated... *rolls eyes*

And with his roomate?  Come on...

Though I do hope the roomate had a spell cast on him too...does it ever say?

Saying that all straight women want to secretly have sex with another woman is like saying that all gay women secretly want to have sex with men. Both are ridiculous. Exactly! both are ridiculous. But if you say the latter...watch out. But obviously Joss and Co. think the first is totally true.

One of the first ways they went wrong was in Chosen. The Slayer spell should have been limited to the girls who were actually there and could give thier consent. Given how it was done, Willow certainly could have restricted the spell. That would have still given them plenty of new Slayers to have stories with plus if any had died then they would have to search out the new Slayer called. Given how many years Buffy whined about "the burdern of Slayerness" and not having a choice not to mention how the scene where the shadow men put the slayer power in is depicted as a rape ,it makes no sense for Buffy to take away so many girls . That says to me that they consider bad behavior all right if a woman does it and it should be brushed off or ignored but if a man does it the same behavior is considered extremely wrong. Xander seems to be the only exception to that and Angel gets by a bit by pulling the whole it wasn't me I didn't have my sould dodge  I a;ways thought the Slayer spell was so wrong. They took the choice away from thousands of girls and thought it was all OK. Talk about arrogance.





Not to mention that when you sleep with your boss any promotions are suspect as to how they are earned.    And it is totally ,morally wrong for a boss or "General "in Buffy's case to sleep with a subordinate. Buffy has lost all her morals and ethics it seems, and they want people to believe she's a hero? No way!  The comics have ruined Buffy's character even more than she already was.

And it is totally ,morally wrong for a boss or "General "in Buffy's case to sleep with a subordinate. Buffy has lost all her morals and ethics it seems, and they want people to believe she's a hero? No way! The comics have ruined Buffy's character even more than she already was.

This was brought up before - Buffy having sexual relations with a subordinate and especially in a military system is so wrong -  

The Satsu-Buffy thing just won't go away,  In one of the latest issues they had another image that referenced their sexual encounter - The only two characters that I am actually liking in the comic series are Faith and Giles - nothing else is making any kind of emotional connection.  The other instance that I felt anything emotionally for the characters, was Xander losing his, just new, girl friend.  So far the issue, IMO, that has had a powerful story line on a real human level was "The Chain." 

Maybe one had to be familiar with the comic book format to really get what is being done with the comic book season.  Buffy and Satsu was bad enough, but I am still trying to figure out the Spike-Illyria whatever thing - and what was the point of the Dawn-First Boyfriend Arc?   They finally have a chance to do something with Dawn and we get "revenge magical spell and insecure Dawn issues. 

What is so different about the comic book format that a long and tightly focused story arc seems to be escaping the writers.  What was done with the Angel Comic Season is much more effective - give your characters a spin-off set of issues to expand on the primary story.  

I watched the last three episodes of the Buffy series the other day - after I had spent some time reviewing Joseph Campbell works and watching the commentary features - I came away very disappointed with how Joss Whedon used the Buffy-Angel scenes.  Why detract from your great series finale by putting in something that was already past and done with?  It's like, Buffy-Angel was put in just to please viewers who continued their attachement to that early relationship.  I have such a negative reaction everytime I watch that kissing scene - even knowing that the "basking" is light comedy, I hate that after all the powerful story lines and horrors that they put the character through - having Buffy fall into the arms of Angel - it just made me ill.  And it's not a "Spuffy" reaction - it just all seems so dishonest. 

Maybe I am wrong and any grand finale for a long running series does not have to keep a strong connection with the ending of the story arc.  Maybe It's perfectly fine to put in "tributes" to earlier loved characters or favored story arcs - But it sure felt wrong to me.  Just like the Buffy-Satsu relationship - if they wanted to put something like that in, why not make it interesting and have a serious exploration of the theme - One issue we had Buffy, If I recall correctly, kicking ala football style, Satsu into group of people and then not to much later Buffy is in bed with her.   Maybe I'm just to old to get comic books.

I watched the last three episodes of the Buffy series the other day - after I had spent some time reviewing Joseph Campbell works and watching the commentary features - I came away very disappointed with how Joss Whedon used the Buffy-Angel scenes. Why detract from your great series finale by putting in something that was already past and done with? It's like, Buffy-Angel was put in just to please viewers who continued their attachement to that early relationship. I have such a negative reaction everytime I watch that kissing scene - even knowing that the "basking" is light comedy, I hate that after all the powerful story lines and horrors that they put the character through - having Buffy fall into the arms of Angel - it just made me ill. And it's not a "Spuffy" reaction - it just all seems so dishonest. Yeah I felt that way too. It felt like just a crumb to the Bangels and not honest storytelling. It was just like, let's throw Angel in and have Buffy kiss him so they can carry the Angel torch 4ever! Very high school...like all that Buffy had been through and all she supposedly learned meant nothing. I'm with you ...I was very disappointed too.

Maybe I'm just to old to get comic books.Yeah me too, I keep saying they're written for 14 yr. old boys and sorry I'm not one of those.lol  That's why I stopped reading after like 12 issues, couldn't get into it ,didn't like anything about them really. *sigh* and I had such high hopes for them.

I think somewhere, sometime, Joss admitted to throwing Angel in to please the Bangel 4evah! crowd.  He was also trying to tie the characters who began the series into the final, and I guess that was the best way to do it. It was a bit of a waste of time and didn't add anything to the story, but it gives the Bangels something to cling to if/when they write future fics.  The scenes between Buffy and Angel didn't bother me that much because I felt like they were played mostly for humor and I never got the feeling either Buffy or Angel was actually contemplating a future together. Except for the minor angst of Spike's seeing the kiss, which he seemed to get over fairly quickly when Buffy called him on his jealousy, it was a pretty bland scene.

I've enjoyed bits and pieces of the comics, although I do find them very hard to follow sometimes. I think that's my age, the way the pages are set up, and the fact that I haven't read a comic since I was probably... twelve?  Some of the arcs I've enjoyed (I loved Dracula when he reverted to Vlad to help Xander gain his revenge. "You've forgotten who I used to be" or words to that effect before he broke bad on the other vamps. I was like "Go, Drac!" LOL)  However, much of it has been silly or stupid.  I just pick and choose useful stuff from the comics when writing future fic and I ignore the rest of it.  But then, that's what we've always done when writing fanfic, isn't it? We twist and rework all the seasons to tell the stories we want to tell.  There's no reason to treat Season Eight any differently.

I've got a comic book collection but I haven't read it in a while because of where it's stored. One thing I can tell you for certain is that it doesn't make a bit of difference if the format is live action, cartoon, text or comics --- bad storytelling is bad storytelling. The format change had a lot of people unfamiliar with comics thinking that things would get better and that they were just unused to the style and that's why it felt wrong but sadly that wasn't the case.

I've got a comic book collection but I haven't read it in a while because of where it's stored. One thing I can tell you for certain is that it doesn't make a bit of difference if the format is live action, cartoon, text or comics --- bad storytelling is bad storytelling. The format change had a lot of people unfamiliar with comics thinking that things would get better and that they were just unused to the style and that's why it felt wrong but sadly that wasn't the case.

Yeah. Comics are the same as books... But with pictures that explain everything lol
If the story's crappy than that's just it. It's not the fact that it's a comic that makes it crappy. Comics are done by several people. One draws, one inks and another person colors.
Then you have the person that writes down the scenario and what they want to happen.
So, if it's bad, It just means that all the people doing it are seriously lacking in imagination.

My fav comic/manga when I was little was Sailor Moon. Don't know if you've heard of it.
The woman who created it REALLY created it.
She drew it, inked it, colored it and all. It was all her, her plots and her ideas.
When you hire several people to make a comic it means that they need help because really, they don't know what they're doing.

Mesh

I do know of Sailor Moon - but have not read any - perhaps their is an online site that archives some of the books -

I do know of Sailor Moon - but have not read any - perhaps their is an online site that archives some of the books -

You'll probably get scans of one or two pages but I honestly doubt you'll find a complete manga online. (If you do let me know ;) )
Usually if you're not a big manga fan, you might not like it. Who knows?
I don't love manga per sé but I fell in love with this particular one when I was little. The english dub of the cartoon is horrible...
2 of the sailors are lovers in the original and in english they made them cousins. 'nuff said lol
The first season on dvd alone (not the manga) costs about 100$.
I actually wish I was a born sooner so I could have bought everything before it all became super expansive ;P

I've seen some of the Sailor Moon anime and I've even got a doll of her. My favorite anime/manga though is Ranma 1/2 which is considered a sex farce even though no one ever has sex.

I actually got into reading fan fiction while looking for Ranma 1/2 pics and found a continuation of the series that occurs after Ranma and Akane are married and in college (still not having sex though) called Dagasai no Ranma (probably misspelled) or DnR for short.

From there I decided to look and see if there was any fanfiction on Buffy featuring Spike and became a Spuffy fan.I think it was Lynx/Lynn 's unfinished Angel in Chains series that did it for me.

I'd forgotten about it but along with the doll (which is on my desk) I have two silk screened wall hangings the original name) wearing his Lawrence of Arabia outfit he wore for a while.

I haven't seen any of the anime in so long because unfortunately i had to move to the back of beyond which is more than 100 miles away from civilzation and the comic book shop where the owner would rent the anime dvd titles out for a dollar each.

LIke I said it's been a long time and I have a bad memory. I just started at the beginning and worked my way forward.

Have some suggestions for DVD rentals for Sailor Moon for a first time viewer?

Um yes hang on a second *searches on youtube for good episodes*

OK, this is one of my fav episodes by far ^^ I hope you're a fast reader cause it's subtitled :)
Watching it again reminds me of Rainbow Brite :P

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSdkDI7uUo
part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZreteF_w1c&feature=related
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4u0EHl7xzQ&feature=related

It's all done in parts cause on youtube, you're only allowed to upload videos that last 9 minutes--so it has been cut into different sections.

Just FYI you should never watch this show (or any anime) in the dubbed version. They edit it so completely and utterly that it's not even the same cartoon anymore... Not to mention the voice overs are horrible.

My favorite anime/manga though is Ranma 1/2 which is considered a sex farce even though no one ever has sex.
I never actually saw Ranma.
All I know is that it's about a red head and a panda :P
If any cartoon is about sex, it's Sponge Bob.
He's a sponge that lives in a place called "Bikini Bottom" and one of the residents name's is "pearl"...... o.o

As for Sailor Moon.... It was canceled in the US by the time the 4th season came out . The Christian Coalition intervened and forced Cartoon Network to stop showing it.

Mesh.

Thanks for the recommends - will check them out and will check my vid rental store - see what they carry.

The basic idea behind Ranma 1/2 (like the basic idea behind Superman is that he was from another planet and being on Earth gives him powers) is that there is a cursed training ground in China for martial artists which has a lot of poles that the fighters balance on and a bunch of little lakes. If you fall into on of the lakes you turn into whatever drowned in there however many years ago when you get wet. To turn back to your original form you have to have hot water poured on you.

Also due to circumstances beyond his control (mostly his father) Ranma ends up with 3 fiances. He's in love with Akane and she with him but neither would ever admit it.

Here's the people who change (that I can remember ) and what they change into

Ranma  Saotome = from black haired boy to red haired girl. A guy named Kuno is obsesses with both Akane and the girl Ranma but hates the boy Ranma. Kuno sister loves boy Ranma but hates girl Ranma and Akane.

Genma Saotome= Panda. Often will force the change to get out of talking or trouble. Communicates with signs while a panda and seems very comfortable as one since he will spend a lot of time in that form.

Shampoo= Cat. One of the fiances. Amazon warrior. Unfortunately for her Ranma is deathly afraid of cats due to one of Genma crackpot training methods.

Mousse= Duck. Madly in love with Shampoo. Master of the hidden weapon.

Ryoga = baby piglet. Has nearly been cooked at least twice. Loves Akane , hates Ranma. Lives as Akane's pet pig P-Chan (she doesn't know it's Ryoga) Has the worst sense of direction in existence. Can end up getting lost and wandering around the country while trying to get around the corner from his house.

Pantyhose Taro -I think he he changes into a creature made up of several different creatuures and he deliberately cursed himself in order to get revenge on the panty snatching martial arts master named Happasoi that named him.He doesn't show up often.

There's also a bunch of other non shapeshifting oddball characters. It's all very goofy and funny.

Thanks for the recommends - will check them out and will check my vid rental store - see what they carry.

No prob. Tell me what you think of it when you see it :)

There's also a bunch of other non shapeshifting oddball characters. It's all very goofy and funny.

That actually sounds kinda funny. I can't seem to find any on youtube. Do you know where I can find some clips?
They used to play it on Adult Swim on CN years ago but I never got the chance to see it cause it was on super late. Now that I'm here, I can't access my old favorite channels ;.; *cries*

Eh, life goes on lol

I think you can rent it from Netflix and Blockbuster online if nothing else .

I think you can rent it from Netflix and Blockbuster online if nothing else .

I can just picture myself writing them an email......

"Hi, Blockbuster.... I'd like to rent some Ranma dvds so could you send them to me across the mediterranean?" lol
The price to ship it would be enough for me to buy it lol

I'll just go to amazon ;)

Mesh

JUst make sure you buy them for the right region.

The whole Simone and her Slayers plot point would be a good plot point if they were an aberration and a contrast to the main body of the Slayers under Buffy's command. Unfortunately it doesn't resonate as well if you just have corrupt characters doing the want take have thing against the very organization that taught them that.

If the Slayers under Buffy were taught that thier might doesn't make right and that with great power comes great reponsibility then the Simone plotline would be a wonderful contrast to them . Instead it's just more of the same. Simone's crew is just being louder about it.

If Buffy and them were a good example then you could have them policing thier own people and look for a way to remove the powers from any Slayers with evil intent. All we've gotten with so many Slayers is that power corrupts. It certainly did with Willow. The spell should been limited to the Slayers in Sunnydale.

Does anybody know if someone has written a fic with that as a plot? Prefer Spuffy  or gen please where Buffy is concerned.

I looked on Wikipedia to see if they'd ever had Dawn return to human again (she did after she apoligized to Kenny) and decided to check what the synopsis of the other issues were and found this under Satsu's name

For one thing it was a 2 night stand since she slept with Buffy once more before going to Japan and then thier's this quote

"Kennedy visits Satsu in "Swell", both as a performance assessment and to talk to her about the Buffy situation; Kennedy helps Satsu accept that Buffy is straight and not interested in Satsu, despite having led her on."

Which is exactly what I pointed out sleeping with someone who is in love with you is when she did it. Leading them on. This is not the act of a hero.

In a issue synopsis (issue 22) at the end it says this

"Much to Satsu's dismay, Buffy does not have any personal words for her, nor acknowledges their relationship as having happened."

That seems mean.

And this whole Buffy's straight yet will sleep with a woman twice and like it seems like saying someone's a little bit pregnant, either you are or you're not. The textbook definition of heterosexual is that you are attracted to the opposite sex only, homosexual  the same sex only bisexual both sexes. Now even if you are a woman with a strong preference for men and a minor interest in women that still fits within the definition of bisexual . Does the Buffyverse have a problem with bisexuality? .Or do they just refuse to acknowledge it when it occurs.
 
It strikes me that Willow is bisexual  due to her longstanding crush on Xander plus her relationship with Oz and if Willow did really somehow flip a switch and change sexual identities then why was she torn between Tara and Oz when he came back?

Now while you can probably refer to yourself as straight and get away with it if you have an extremely minor interest in same sex relationships ( if no sex has occurred) but telling someone of the same gender that you've slept with twice that you're straight just doesn't fly.

If they really want to have Buffy portrayed as a lonely, horny busy woman of modern times they should have her buy some vibrators and porn  either online or in a sex shop.

If they really want to have Buffy portrayed as a lonely, horny busy woman of modern times they should have her buy some vibrators and porn either online or in a sex shop. Exactly!! LOL! And like aren't there any bars or clubs where they live now? I mean if you want a one night stand cause you're so lonely, horny ,busy like can't you go to a bar and pick up a guy? No... you have sex with a chick who basically you're her boss. WTF?

Now while you can probably refer to yourself as straight and get away with it if you have an extremely minor interest in same sex relationships ( if no sex has occurred) but telling someone of the same gender that you've slept with twice that you're straight just doesn't fly. You're right ..that is total BS! I guess in Jossworld this makes perfect sense. Who the f*** is writing this crap? 12 yr,old horny fan boys?

The thing is, this whole theme of slayers and sex is something that I have been thinking of for a long while - always hoped that some of the excellent FF writers would explore the theme.  Slayers really  are left in a big bind regarding sexual fulfillment and especially now with all these new slayers - their sexual life must become part of the life style. 

Slayers would seem to need very strong males to fully satisfy their sexual needs - with their enhanced strengths, it would seem to me that a normal male would just not be able to fully satisfy the physical demands of the slayers.   Irrespective of the whole Riley-Buffy relationship - I always came away with the question of Buffy actually being sexually satisfied with Riley - especially with all the heavy and strong sexual acts between Spike and Buffy.  If normal men and women have so many problems being sexually satisfied, how much more difficult a problem must that have been for a slayer. 

Another logical extension, IMO, is that all these new slayers, so far most shown are young girls, will have to become bi-sexual if they wish to have a sexual life - how many men are part of the daily lives?  who can they turn to for sexual and emotional relationship? 

In the series, I always had the impression that Faith would go with either male or female - and the  Willow-Tara  love seemed more like it was Love for Tara, not particularly (from willow) because she found her true life style in being lesbian.  In Torchwood, it was a poignant and I felt very honest scene when Lanto tells his sister that he is with a man, not because he turned homosexual, but because he fell in love with Captain Jack. 
Tara was a lesbian, she defined herself with that sexual orientation - Kennedy the same.  Willow, it seems to me, would be bi-sexual and not really only being able to go with a woman.  Are the writers being honest about where Buffy is sexually now?  From the script, our little general slayer really really liked having sex with a woman - and if she liked it so very much with Satsu, why would she not go with another woman? The writers have again placed their primary character in unsettling circumstances for the audience.  On one hand we have a head leader that took advantage of the emotional feelings of a subordinate - even with consensual agreement, it is "questionable conduct" from the POV of leadership.  Having Buffy expressed so much sexual satisfaction and having been with Satsu at least twice now, readily opens up the bi-sexual model for the character.

I personally think that using Satsu, as yet another way for Buffy to get her emotional fulfillment, was not a good plot device - not because I disapprove of woman finding love and sexual pleasure with each other - but because it turns back on how Buffy used Spike for same thing.   My personal opinion is that eventually the bi-sexual life style will be a  part of the "general" sexual culture -

Slayers would seem to need very strong males to fully satisfy their sexual needs - with their enhanced strengths, it would seem to me that a normal male would just not be able to fully satisfy the physical demands of the slayers. Irrespective of the whole Riley-Buffy relationship - I always came away with the question of Buffy actually being sexually satisfied with Riley - especially with all the heavy and strong sexual acts between Spike and Buffy. If normal men and women have so many problems being sexually satisfied, how much more difficult a problem must that have been for a slayer.

I don't think that's true.  Faith seemed to get off just fine with regular guys, or having a really good slay.  Sex isn't mandatory--there's the slaying, as Faith pointed out, and sex shops with many, many things that can take care of one's sexual needs, or at least assuage those needs to where you don't have to go and use a person, particularly one that you know, or one that has feelings for you.  Or if you are going to use a person, it could be some no name individual at a bar or club where such behavior is at least expected.

does that mean that she slept with Satsu because Satsu loved her and she got off not on the sexual feelings per se but on having sex with somone who loved her.
That's probably a big part of it, I think.

As is Dawn because the reason Dawn gave for her cheating is that she was so overwhelmed by her love for Kenny that she ran scared into his roommate's arms.
That is so incredibly stupid, that I do not have words.

Remember they're people with feelings and they can be hurt.
If a person only takes their feelings into consideration, than that pretty much flies out of the window.  Some people either don't get to have feelings, or if they do, they're not that important.

Slayers would seem to need very strong males to fully satisfy their sexual needs - with their enhanced strengths, it would seem to me that a normal male would just not be able to fully satisfy the physical demands of the slayers. Irrespective of the whole Riley-Buffy relationship - I always came away with the question of Buffy actually being sexually satisfied with Riley - especially with all the heavy and strong sexual acts between Spike and Buffy. If normal men and women have so many problems being sexually satisfied, how much more difficult a problem must that have been for a slayer.

I agree with this...I will get back to this point in a second.

I don't think that's true. Faith seemed to get off just fine with regular guys, or having a really good slay.

Uh, I actually do agree with the questions that nmcil proposed.  We have to look at it from this perspective.  Sure they had sex with 'normal' human boys - but no where does it state were they satisfied by any means.  We would have to look at the Slayer as a whole.  Just by hugging she was strong.  We have no clue what went on during the act because it was glossed over.  This is a hole actually because in some spots just by hugging a person they feel her strength, but when having sex it doesn't happen?  No way don't buy that.  They would have to hold back and the sex would not be satisfying - not by a long shot.

Faith was careless she didn't care who she was with.  Her motto was want, take, and have. 

So this thinking leaves big HUGE holes on what they actually thought of as Slayers.  They were inhumanly strong.  I'm thinking human sex having would be less than pleasurable and she would be in the shower bringing herself off or finding someone who could match her.  A tv show isn't going to go into that not unless it was say 'Hung', lol.  So huge with the major plot issues on what exactly is a Slayer and what that meant to have a partner.

I really agree with you here nmcil and it's always been some idea of mine would someone take the plunge and write something that dealt with this very issue and what it meant to Slayers.  I mean this has to be something that would, I don't know, cross their minds, at least once.  I mean kids are going to cross anyone's mind even a Slayers.  But, it was never said if they could have kids.  Why I still stand by the huge plot hole on what a Slayer is, and their chemistry, and what it means to what those girls lose out on by being a Slayer.

As far as the Satsu/Buffy theme - can I gag anymore?  Experimentation, my *beep*.  We straight women can look at other women or men do the same, but it doesn't make us gay or bi.  I thought Buffy was as straight as an arrow.  That stuff happens unless you are insanely drunk or drugged.  Buffy was doing the same crap she did with Spike...make me feel.  You love me, but I don't love you - yet you make my body feel.  UGH sing us a new one, and the comment about this being written by fan boys, I totally agree.  It's a freaking WET dream to most men in this world to have two women going at it. 

Probably why I have never been a big fan of the whole Joss comic or even some of his plots for the show...He's just pulling all the shots and going way overboard with the comics now.  Yawn...moving on...I still would choose fan fiction over these comics any day.

OOO I love your thoughts, nmcil, on how it is the person you fall in love with and not the preference.  It irked me how Willow could be with Oz and suddenly she is gay?  I would have understood it if she fell in love with Tara...then it would make sense.  But she goes on to Kennedy...ewww.  Ok now I'm done lol.  Off to bed...

They were inhumanly strong. I'm thinking human sex having would be less than pleasurable and she would be in the shower bringing herself off or finding someone who could match her.

But that isn't what we're shown.  Xander, Parker, Riley or Robin aren't "bruised" from inhuman/slayer vaginal walls.  Buffy seemed to be satisfied with Riley just fine until she did the First Slayer spell, and Faith was only put off that Robin wasn't praising her "mad skills."  So I don't think it's as big of a deal when we're talking physical prowess or what have you.  So yeah, that theory isn't gelling for me.

But she goes on to Kennedy...ewww. Ok now I'm done lol.

 I agree with you on Kennedy , the first impression I got of her as she came through the door was snotty spoiled bea-atch . Her being gay barely made an impression on me.

Even so she doesn't serve to be cheated on  since apparantly Willow is sleeping with some snake goddess (or whatever she is)  . I'm thinking Kennedy is unaware of thhe sexual aspect of Willow's tutelage under this whatever she is. The cheating though means Willow is yet another Scooby who has shown her lack of concern for morals or fidelity.

Probably why I have never been a big fan of the whole Joss comic or even some of his plots for the show...He's just pulling all the shots and going way overboard with the comics now.Yeah ...just cause you can doesn't mean you should Joss.
The cheating though means Willow is yet another Scooby who has shown her lack of concern for morals or fidelity.I thought just evil vamps were the cheaters and immoral. Ooops my bad. Scoobies and all humans can be just as bad, but it's only Spike that gets that thrown in his face constantly.The Scoobies are the good guys, I guess they can get away with it. Total BS!

But that isn't what we're shown. Xander, Parker, Riley or Robin aren't "bruised" from inhuman/slayer vaginal walls. Buffy seemed to be satisfied with Riley just fine until she did the First Slayer spell, and Faith was only put off that Robin wasn't praising her "mad skills." So I don't think it's as big of a deal when we're talking physical prowess or what have you. So yeah, that theory isn't gelling for me.

Agree to disagree on this because I'm thinking you have superpowers or inhuman strength - you - yourself definitely are not getting the satisfying experience when it comes to sexual relations.  You have to hold back because humans don't have the strength that - oh say a Slayer has.  First off this is why it was completely stupid of them to not show this on the show.  Buffy is shown to hold Olaf's hammer but Spike can't.  That to me is the perfect example that a human wasn't able to handle a Slayer and they have to hold back, hence the bitchiness of pretty much all Slayers.  Even Kendra had her own 'bitchiness' going for her.  They have to hold back to not hurt humans intentionally.  Why show the hammer if she wasn't inhumanly strong?  Even the friends staking vamps this is another thing that bothered me.  This is why I love True Blood so much better.  They show the inhuman strength of a vampire.  They definitely show the ferociousness of lovemaking and the speed of a vamp.  Why did they stop showing this on Buffy but later pick it up here and there on Angel.  Not consistent.

I really don't care what I saw on the show.  The fact remains that this was a major hole in what the writers believed their Slayers to be.  First they are seem as puny one second then the next they are able to hold a (God's ?) hammer that Spike couldn't hold.  This was proving that Buffy was stronger than demons.  So please tell me that she isn't holding back and not thoroughly satisfied by a human.  I sure as hell wouldn't and still would be running off maybe to kill a demon or something just to get that orgasmic high.  This is the point I was making because Faith even though she was 'easy' with who she slept with her high was fighting and dancing.  Her mad skills as you put was to me showing Faith's inadequacies of what she saw of herself.  It was so a cover up and still hiding the real Faith inside.  The show showed her as this bad girl.  I saw her as a girl trying very hard to destroy herself while taking others with her.  So still not buying the 'physical prowess' because what it vanishes when you have sex?  Come on.

 Even so she doesn't serve to be cheated on since apparantly Willow is sleeping with some snake goddess (or whatever she is) . I'm thinking Kennedy is unaware of thhe sexual aspect of Willow's tutelage under this whatever she is. The cheating though means Willow is yet another Scooby who has shown her lack of concern for morals or fidelity.

Oh is this a comic theme?  She really does this?  Bad Willow.  I agree with guest down below.  Always the Scoobs and all humans getting the brush off, but then again isn't that the human way?  We have the capacity to forgive but not forget.  Work on ourselves, but yet when a demon should do this it was a double standard.  It is total BS.  You would think them being white hats would encourage earlier on rather than beat them down just because they are apparently considered evil.  What human is completely good?  When I did attend catholic teenager events this was a big discussion.  We all truly believed that we have both and it's our choice to choose right from wrong.  We can do bad things and it can send us red flags like uh oh this isn't good, but we do them anyway.  Then I became my own spiritual person after learning way too many sick things happened within the church.  But that is a WHOLE other topic, lol. 

Plot holes throughout the entire series.  Oh and I am by no means saying True Blood is perfect either.  I just find the vamps a bit on the more realistic side.

Even so she doesn't serve to be cheated on since apparantly Willow is sleeping with some snake goddess

OK, that right there should be enough to tell you that the writers don't even care about being realistic or true to the character's anymore.
And to me, personally--the TV show and the comic are two separate entities entirely.

When I did attend catholic teenager events this was a big discussion. We all truly believed that we have both and it's our choice to choose right from wrong. We can do bad things and it can send us red flags like uh oh this isn't good, but we do them anyway. Then I became my own spiritual person after learning way too many sick things happened within the church.

I hear ya. I went to a catholic school a couple of years ago and then to a puplic college. It gave me a whole different perspective on things.
The kids and teachers at the catholic school were messed up. The kids were there because t their parents thought it would make them better if they went there.
So I don't think it's as big of a deal when we're talking physical prowess or what have you. So yeah, that theory isn't gelling for me.

I get what you're saying and all cause my BF turns me on just breathing and I don't care how strong he is cause I love him but let's look at it another way.

A normal sized regular woman often will date a larger muscular man.

Now, let's take a huge body building hot mama and put her with a small stick man....

I doubt she'd feel much lol

That to me is the perfect example that a human wasn't able to handle a Slayer and they have to hold back, hence the bitchiness of pretty much all Slayers.
And yet, Xander is hit with that same hammer, and isn't put into traction or needed a trip to the hospital.  His arm is just hurt.

You have to hold back because humans don't have the strength that - oh say a Slayer has.
You really believe Faith held back on all of her human partners (and all of her partners were human)?  You don't have to like the lack of continuity, but the bottom line is that it's never said nor implied in canon that slayers somehow had more nerves than the average woman (or less, since you're saying it was harder to please them sexually, and more would make it easier), or that their vaginal walls were the equivalents of iron clamps.  That just isn't the case.  Think of it--Buffy doesn't eat vast amounts of food, even though her metabolism and adrenaline should and does work differently than the average human, but she eats like a normal person. 

And Messiah, the size of a man's body does not make up for the size of his privates or lack thereof, nor does it give him some kind of knowledge into the proper art of foreplay or what have you.  So that also does not work :P

The point is Scarlet that this was a flaw!  Don't think about canon.  Look at what was given.  Your saying with all these flaws - the hammer hitting Xander just hurt his arm and Spike being a strong fighting vampire couldn't lift the hammer and Buffy even Faith stops using their strength for sex?  Sorry I'm gonna disagree with this strict canonized thinking of the show.  Because looking at what was shown.  Was flawed.  How can something hurt Xander's arm but yet Spike couldn't even lift the the darn thing?  Yet Buffy picked it up like it was a feather.  This type of trait that was given for Buffy or any Slayer for that matter tells us they are inhumanly strong.

I really like your analogy Messiah.  This is exactly how I envision it too.  Super buff body builder mama is gonna hurt that skinny guy if she doesn't hold back some.  This is my point.  I didn't say a word about her eating habits or high metabolism.  Because I'm sure working all that energy off will cause her to have just that - not because she is a Slayer.  If she didn't have a calling she would be shopping and doing all other sorts of things...not getting a workout if this wasn't something she was interested in.

You are in the hight of the moment and hold a human and you are a Slayer you just might crush the poor boy.  I'm not talking about vaginal walls or muscles.  I'm talking arms - positions.  HOLDING BACK and letting go.  She couldn't do that with a human.  Faith doesn't care about that because to her sex is sex.  She proves it even with Robin.  But this is exactly what my problem is with any kind of human having superhuman powers.  They do have to hold back...Shoot the man of steel does to otherwise he would've had Lois in the next country.

Oh, I'm not (wholly) disagreeing with the logic behind what you're saying (cause plenty of body building men or wrestlers for example have sex with people much smaller than them), but it's a bit of a moot point with the show since it's never said.  That'd be like wondering about the mechanics of male vampires being able to get up or how vampires in general can't be seen in mirrors, but can take photos of themselves or be seen on camera.  It makes no sense all around, but that was what was given.  *shrug*

I get what you are saying here.  I have at times often wondered how it is a vampire or vampiress can have fluids in their sexes.  But it is what it is.  However, I completely disagree with the notion on Slayers.  I have seen movies that have fighting humans kick vampire butt, yet in Buffy she is suppose to have the superhuman strength and have the ability to kill demons and vampires.  Meaning she has the strength that is either close or more so than these demons.  One would hear this and say how can she without getting super duper excited not hurt a human by accident?  In the beginning didn't she hurt the guy who was being forceful with her?  I really forget the episode and the early on episodes weren't my cup of tea.  Just because it isn't on tv one would wonder when seeing certain flaws of ok she hurt this human then but yet not now when her emotions are high in passion?  This was what I'm referring to.  I agree subconciously you don't know your own strength but I truly believe that both Faith and Buffy held back during these times.  Why?  We don't know much of Faith's history but I can take a real big guess and it wasn't pretty.  Classic front.  She - though I have never shipped for Spaith like ever - is the feminine version of William.  Except I think there was more dirty history in her background than that.  Is this an assumption or what I perceived...Actually a bit of both as I do my own job well being that I'm an Records Analyst.  *shrugs*

I get the whole of what you are saying but my perception is they didn't map out the details.  I would have been up at that board going "Come on people dig deeper!"  "She has more strength or equal to demons.  Thus making her hold back essentially with humans in fear of harming them."  This makes sense.  Then you describe to the nitty gritty what your Vamp should be and honestly...Joss's vamp's?  WTH was he thinking?  I mean I get making them look evil and such and taking his vamps outside the norm of Hollywoods visionary vamps, but I mean really.  Interesting but really lame.

Back to the comics...As much as most may like them I won't even at this point even consider them part of what was seen. 

Does anyone get the sense from rumors or snippets they have seen this is very close to a lot of the 'other' Buffy fiction out there?  Still prefer fan fiction.  I really need to go work early appointment the a lovely yet another year older b-day dinner.  Yeah.

Your so fun to debate with Scarlet!  You make me think LOL!  Night!

And Messiah, the size of a man's body does not make up for the size of his privates or lack thereof, nor does it give him some kind of knowledge into the proper art of foreplay or what have you.
Oh, I getcha.. But .... What happens after foreplay?? :D
You really believe Faith held back on all of her human partners (and all of her partners were human)? You don't have to like the lack of continuity, but the bottom line is that it's never said nor implied in canon that slayers somehow had more nerves than the average woman (or less, since you're saying it was harder to please them sexually, and more would make it easier), or that their vaginal walls were the equivalents of iron clamps. That just isn't the case. Think of it--Buffy doesn't eat vast amounts of food, even though her metabolism and adrenaline should and does work differently than the average human, but she eats like a normal person.

I agree that she probably does have the same nerves of an average woman...  After all she still is a human girl.
Her enhanced abilities aren't apart of her DNA or genetic make-up. It's more like an energy force within her that gives her these strengths--which would explain her smallness and lack of muscle.
In the beginning didn't she hurt the guy who was being forceful with her?
I think that may have been been Go Fish? Where Xander gets turned into a lizard I think....?

I really need to go work early appointment the a lovely yet another year older b-day dinner. Yeah.

Oh, Happy Birthday :) *fireworks shoot up* pow woo crack

Mine was yesterday ^^

Her enhanced abilities aren't apart of her DNA or genetic make-up. It's more like an energy force within her that gives her these strengths--which would explain her smallness and lack of muscle.
Perfectly perfect way to say that.  Thanks :P

And ditto BandS ;)

Happy belated birthday Messiah!  Wow never seen so many August Birthday's! 

*party dance*  *groans* shouldn't be at work!

After all she still is a human girl. Her enhanced abilities aren't apart of her DNA or genetic make-up. It's more like an energy force within her that gives her these strengths--which would explain her smallness and lack of muscle.

That makes sense but Olaf's hammer doesn't.  Am I mistaken but wasn't it considered a God's hammer and this was why she was able to beat Glory?  If she is just a human girl with this energy force then she shouldn't have been able to pick that hammer up.  Having some energy force to me is saying it is somehow borrowed or gained.  The way I envision a Slayer's power is something awakens inside you otherwise why would the Council have had girls already taken away from their parents?  They were potentials.  Buffy slipped the radar.  They were born to this they had the potential to be the next Slayer.  So in that case I would say that it is very much a part of their genetic make-up because then why would the Council already have some of those potentials?  They were considered a bit stronger and more agile than other human girls.  They were special, unique even.  Or maybe I just read to much into it because Slayers look so damn frustrated all the damn time, lol.

;)

*Groans* I hate having to analyze everything...Now my head hurts lol.  I look at the big picture and tear it to bits to get to the core, lol.

The Potentials, I agree as well, must have something special in the genetic makeup that would give the CoW a way of identification for a potential future slayer - A potential force is awakened and given to the selected "Chosen One" in the series pre "Scythe Magical Transformation" - Being a "Potential" is not something that one can buy or voluntarily submit themselves - it is a unique quality to "Potentials."  Some, like Buffy are not identified by theCoW, some like Faith, must have been discovered late in their lives - and some like Kendra were identified very early in their childhood.  While it is not canon that the sexual life of The Slayer cannot be shared with a normal human, obviously Faith and Robin Wood clearly shows that they can and that Slayers can have children - and someone correct me if it was even stated that Robin Wood was the biological son of Nikki. 

What is shown is that Buffy can hurt normal human with her Slayer strength - if we are to believe Buffy and the entire premise of her motivation about killing Katrina by accident - Slayers can in a moment of passion and extreme circumstances kill and seriously injure normal human - it was shown that a simple "I am so glad to see you hug" hurts normal humans.    In canon, it is shown that Buffy has very rough sexual encounters with Spike, that they are filled with sexual need and passion - so much so that they never even get to the bed, that they can spend hours engaged in their sexual needs and based on Spike's speech to her,  they also engaged in a lot of sex that is not Mr & Mrs Joe Normal. 

Granted this idea that Slayers would, because of their superhuman strengths, is entirely speculative it seems logical that Slayers would have to be guarded when having sex with normal men. Faith even mentioned that one excellent thing about Robin Wood is his stamina - as far as having sex with Xander, how experienced was Xander?  He couldn't even understand that for Faith he was nothing but a body to use for little bit of physical pleasure.  No, it is not canon that Slayers are not fully satisfied in their sexual encounters with normal human males, but Buffy was really liking something about all that sex she had with Spike - either that or she was one really sick young woman that was using Spike simultaneously as Great Sex Toy and Great Whipping Boy Self Flagellant Tool.

The other side of the equation is that Slayer is equal and stronger than vampires - how would Angel/Angelus orSpike have to regulate themselves if they had sex with normal human females - we don't see Spike having the same kind of extra strong sex with Anya as is implied with his sex with Buffy.  It would not be possible for Angel/Angelus, equal in physical strength to Buffy, to have full out sex with Cordelia.  What Cordelia's sexual abilities would be like after she becomes a demon/seer is another question - we don't know. 

The Potentials, I agree as well, must have something special in the genetic makeup that would give the CoW a way of identification for a potential future slayer - A potential force is awakened and given to the selected "Chosen One" in the series pre "Scythe Magical Transformation"

well if it was something in their dna than would't it show up in blood tests?
I think it would be so;ething more psychological.... Like the having the proper mentality to do what they have to do.Or it could b both. The mentaility and the composition.
Happy belated birthday Messiah! Wow never seen so many August Birthday's!

why thank you!!!
I am currently spending my vacation in Vienna :D (OMG I had a 4 hour lay over!!!!!) my feet hurt!!! Should never have to wear highb heels for sooo long!!!
excuse me if i make several typos.... i'm not used this crackish keyboard lol
Buffy has very rough sexual encounters with Spike, that they are filled with sexual need and passion -

true.. it's even shown in their first sex scene--with the building breaking and everything..
must have been the first time since angel that she was allowed to let loose a little.

well, mayb even the first time actually cause she doesn't remember the time she was with angel

I sure wish that I could go to Europe - hope you had a wonderful birthday and that your trip is fabulous - I can't wear high heels at all -

I sure wish that I could go to Europe - hope you had a wonderful birthday and that your trip is fabulous - I can't wear high heels at all -

I sure wish that I could go to Europe - hope you had a wonderful birthday and that your trip is fabulous - I can't wear high heels at all -