BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Harsh Light of Day

Aug 30 2009 08:07 pm   #1Spikez_tart
I skipped right over Living Conditions cause face it, it sucks and Joss couldn't even be bothered writing a roommate character for Buffy that would last more than two weeks.  Ugh.  So straight ahead to Wicked Spike with no chip in his head.  Sadly for the last time for YEARS.

Willow and Oz and Devon are packing the van when Harmony shows up.  Willow, after getting a surprise bite whips out her cross.  Okay, what happened to being Jewish?  She couldn't have whipped out a Star of David?  Bugs me.

Buffy and Parker - Parker sucks totally.  And, Buffy couldn't have thought of a better lie about her neck scar than an angry puppy?  Not like she hasn't had time to think about it. 

Willow and bad love advice - Once more Willow pushes Buffy in the direction of an unsuitable guy and will again.  Willow encourages Buffy to have sex with Angel, then with Parker, then practically throws Riley at Buffy (denying it all the time).  Buffy may have bad taste in men, but her bestest friend isn't exactly helping out.  Is this some kind of subconscious nastiness from Willow to get back at Buffy for being pretty and cheer leader material?

Spike - tunnels - jewelry - Okay Spike digs a big tunnel to get into a crypt.  Why?  Wouldn't it be easier to just bust into the crypt?  Of course it would, which leads me to think that Joss already had the big S7 finale planned in S4 and maybe before.  The alternative would be that the writers got to S7 and said let's look back and see what crazy thing Spike did that we can use as foreshadowing. 

Xander and Anya - okay, I know, I know, young men -  a woman stops by your basement pad and drops her dress, pretty hard to resist, but really, Anya is just obnoxious here.  Why does he allow the relationship to continue?  Could it be that Xander (still carrying that Buffy torch) consistently takes up with girls that he doesn't really like because he knows they will never replace Buffy in his heart?  Cordelia - Faith - Anya. 

Buffy kisses Parker - Buffy is in the driver's seat in her relationships, such as they are.  She prods Angel into having sex when he's willing to wait.  She kisses Parker first.  She kisses Spike first too in their fun romp in the abandoned house.  Riley's the exception.  I don't think she kisses him first, which only proves that she isn't all that interested or is only interested in him because he's boring and normal and she thinks that's going to get her somewhere.

Spike and Buffy - An excellent fight that Spike is able to bring to Buffy's turf - the sunlight.  Of course if he knew that Buffy had cut off Mrs. Post's hand in an earlier fight he might have thought twice about sticking that ring on his finger.  His jealousy is already coming out as he abuses her about sleeping with Parker.  And, there's an insinuation that Spike would treat Buffy better himself if he was in Parker's shoes. 

Xander - Once again, Xander shows up when Buffy is getting her ass kicked (and may not win) and he's the only one of the Scoobies to appear.  Spike gets to clock him.  Very satisfying.

The Gem - Does anyone think it was a good idea for Buffy to give this stupid ring to Angel?  Yeah, it was fun to see Spike run amok in Los Angeles, but really, Angel could go off the tracks any time.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 31 2009 02:28 am   #2Tammy 
I don't believe that about Willow, and it's not like she really knew those guys were no good. 
Aug 31 2009 02:30 am   #3Tammy 
Well, no, Parker was no good, but Riley for the most part was pretty decent.
Aug 31 2009 03:45 am   #4Unbridled_Brunette
In my opinion, Riley was really not that decent. Aside from the pseudo-cheating he did with the vampire girls, he was also constantly trying to compete with Buffy. When the government chip was removed so that he could no longer compare to her physically, he became sulky and childish. He annoyed the crap out of me because he acted sanctimonious, but he was really just a misogynistic asshole at heart. I especially hated how he tried to blame the disintegration of their relationship on Buffy. Yes, she was partially at fault for being emotionally unavailable, but he chose to be a deceitful jerk.

That was quite the rant, huh? Uh, sorry about that.


EDITED TO ADD: I completely forgot about his being her TA at the university until Always_jbj brought it up. That fact made it unethical for him to pursue her in the first place.
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Aug 31 2009 04:31 am   #5Always_jbj
UB, on top of all of that (which I wholeheartedly agree with), you forgot that he was in a position of trust as Buffy's TA (responsible for marking her exams etc) and he actively pursued and then entered into a relationship with her.
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Aug 31 2009 06:44 am   #6Scarlet Ibis
I agree with UB and Always.  And yes, Willow did point Riley in her direction...not that I think she was subconsciously jealous or anything.

I don't have a problem with Buffy giving Angel the ring. 

I *do* have a problem with Spike flashing the ring to Buffy, trying to taunt her.  Come on--it was as if he was daring her to take it...which is stupid.  He should have put it on his toe or something.

I still maintain that Parker looks like the rat/crack head version of Xander, and creeped me the hell out.

I agree that if parts of "Chosen" weren't planned for Spike, then that they definitely looked back  to previous eps to tie it all together for Spike's arc, which is awesome.

I think Xander just didn't pass up getting laid cause...he didn't want to pass up getting laid.  I think he genuinely cared for Cordy--I don't think it had anything to do with Buffy or anyone.

I'll probably have more thoughts later
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Aug 31 2009 08:07 am   #7TammyDevil666
I said for the most part...lol!  I guess I'm one of the few who actually liked Riley, and at least he wasn't as bad as Parker.  He gets points in my book for punching the moron in the face, and for still being there the next day. 

I did have a problem with Buffy sending the ring to Angel, even though I get why she did it, but for someone with a very unstable soul, that was really not a smart thing to do.

And I agree, Spike was stupid for flashing Buffy the ring.  She would have never known what it looked like if he didn't do that.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Aug 31 2009 08:12 am   #8Goddess Hecate 
 I think Willow prodded Buffy because she thought it was what Buffy wanted to hear.  If you think about it, Willow has never had another female friend.  I think Willow (at least in the first four seasons) was too nervous to be honest or disagree with Buffy (or what she thought Buffy wanted), which speaks to Willow's lack of confidence in herself and people's value of her friendship.  I doubt it was malicious, I think that Willow either didn't understand that sometimes a good friend points out where her friends are being stupid, or she didn't think that the friendship would survive her pointing these things out to Buffy.  The fact that it takes her so long to come clean to to Buffy and Xander about her relationship to Tara later in the season makes the second seem like a more likely reason to me.  
Aug 31 2009 12:42 pm   #9Bloodyhell 
I've never understood why she gave the ring to Angel . I mean, he hasn't been the most reliable guy in the world, so she should have kept it or give it to Giles or whatever.

Btw, OT: TammyDevil, your avatar really is distracting ... in a good way
Aug 31 2009 02:35 pm   #10sosa lola
I skipped right over Living Conditions

You know, sometimes watching episodes we dislike and rarely watch lead us to discover new things. Like for example, I never knew Xander paid his parents for food until I watched Living Conditions.

Okay, what happened to being Jewish?  She couldn't have whipped out a Star of David?  Bugs me.

Because Star of David doesn't work on vampires, only a cross does. I also remember Willow saying that she hides her cross so her dad won't see it in high school years.

Is this some kind of subconscious nastiness from Willow to get back at Buffy for being pretty and cheer leader material?

Nah, I think it's just Willow trying to make Buffy happy. I don't remember Willow pushing Buffy to have sex with Angel though. High School Willow? Doubt it. Later in S4, she could barely say sex in front of Xander when she came to ask him for advice about Oz.

Why does he allow the relationship to continue?
 

Because he's lonely and wants company, I guess. His friends are busy being college students and he's stuck in the basement.  Besides, there's good sex. Who will turn down good sex? And Anya's more romantic than Faith. Heh

Riley's the exception.  I don't think she kisses him first, which only proves that she isn't all that interested or is only interested in him because he's boring and normal and she thinks that's going to get her somewhere.

Well they both kiss each other, caught in passion. It doesn't sound bad. I also wonder about the whole "boring" thing. Viewers may find Riley boring, but obviously Buffy found him interesting. She'd ditched her friends for him. Why would she stay in the relationship if Riley was boring?

His jealousy is already coming out as he abuses her about sleeping with Parker.  And, there's an insinuation that Spike would treat Buffy better himself if he was in Parker's shoes. 

I'm not sure I saw it that way. Spike was obviously taunting her for the sake of taunting her. He does that with all the characters. 

Well, no, Parker was no good, but Riley for the most part was pretty decent. 

Riley was a great guy. He's not perfect, then again no character is. I still say he was the one who made Buffy the happiest. Loved him or not, I haven't seen her smile as much when she's with her other boyfriends.

I've never understood why she gave the ring to Angel . I mean, he hasn't been the most reliable guy in the world, so she should have kept it or give it to Giles or whatever.

I guess, she trusted Angel to do the right thing with it. Buffy didn't need the ring, but Angel might.

Aug 31 2009 03:02 pm   #11Messiah 

Willow and Oz and Devon are packing the van when Harmony shows up.  Willow, after getting a surprise bite whips out her cross.  Okay, what happened to being Jewish?  She couldn't have whipped out a Star of David?  Bugs me.

 

I kinda feel bad for Jews. They don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter! I’m not religious or anything but I still celebrate those holidays because it’s fun.

I get to put up lights, decorate trees, go into shops I normally don’t go into… Drink nog and eat hors d’oeuvres at parties lol



Buffy and Parker - Parker sucks totally.  And, Buffy couldn't have thought of a better lie about her neck scar than an angry puppy?  Not like she hasn't had time to think about it. 

 

Buffy isn’t really renowned for using her brain much in the show. Thinking something up that is half decent would involve imagination—which I don’t think Buffy has a lot of..

 

Willow and bad love advice - Once more Willow pushes Buffy in the direction of an unsuitable guy and will again.  Willow encourages Buffy to have sex with Angel, then with Parker, then practically throws Riley at Buffy (denying it all the time).  Buffy may have bad taste in men, but her bestest friend isn't exactly helping out.  Is this some kind of subconscious nastiness from Willow to get back at Buffy for being pretty and cheer leader material?

 

Nah no way!

I think Willow is just as lost as Buffy when it comes to love and matchmaking.

Look at how Willow treated Tara in season 6—She may have be the one for her but she wasn’t always the best lover. She hadn’t yet learned how to appreciate what she had.



Spike - tunnels - jewelry - Okay Spike digs a big tunnel to get into a crypt.  Why?  Wouldn't it be easier to just bust into the crypt?  Of course it would, which leads me to think that Joss already had the big S7 finale planned in S4 and maybe before.  The alternative would be that the writers got to S7 and said let's look back and see what crazy thing Spike did that we can use as foreshadowing. 

 

What do u mean he already had the S7 finale planed out? I don’t understand what your saying here O_O



Xander and Anya - okay, I know, I know, young men -  a woman stops by your basement pad and drops her dress, pretty hard to resist, but really, Anya is just obnoxious here.  Why does he allow the relationship to continue?  Could it be that Xander (still carrying that Buffy torch) consistently takes up with girls that he doesn't really like because he knows they will never replace Buffy in his heart?  Cordelia - Faith - Anya. 

Well boys will be boys. And Anya isn’t that bad… And maybe what you said is true. But I think after a time when he realized he loved Anya, he got over his Buffy crush.

 

Like the scene in the episode where they lose their voices. Xander thinks Spike is drinking Anya’s blood so he decides to pummel him.

 

I think that’s when he realized he truly loved her.

 


Buffy kisses Parker - Buffy is in the driver's seat in her relationships, such as they are.  She prods Angel into having sex when he's willing to wait.  She kisses Parker first.  She kisses Spike first too in their fun romp in the abandoned house.  Riley's the exception.  I don't think she kisses him first, which only proves that she isn't all that interested or is only interested in him because he's boring and normal and she thinks that's going to get her somewhere.

 

 

I think you hit right on here J



Spike and Buffy - An excellent fight that Spike is able to bring to Buffy's turf - the sunlight.  Of course if he knew that Buffy had cut off Mrs. Post's hand in an earlier fight he might have thought twice about sticking that ring on his finger.  His jealousy is already coming out as he abuses her about sleeping with Parker.  And, there's an insinuation that Spike would treat Buffy better himself if he was in Parker's shoes. 

 

 


SPIKE: Getting tired Slayer?

(The fight continues. Xander arrives.)

BUFFY: Xander, get out of here.

(Spike grabs him, knees him in the face, and sends him flying.)

SPIKE: So, you let Parker take a poke, eh? Didn't seem like you know each other that well. What did it take to pry apart the Slayer's dimpled knees?

BUFFY: You're a pig Spike.

SPIKE: Did he play the sensitive lad and get *you* to seduce him? That's a good trick if the girl's thick enough to buy it.

(Buffy flies up and delivers a roundhouse, however Spike follows it with an equally vicious hit that sends her flying forward.)

SPIKE: I wonder what went wrong. Were you too strong? Did you bruise the boy? Whatever. I guess you're not worth a second go. Come to think of it seems like someone told me that. Who was it? Oh, yeah. Angel.

(More fighting, then she grabs the arm with the ring on it. )

SPIKE: Take it off me this way, we both burn.

BUFFY: Really? Let's see.

 

If there was an insinuation there, I didn’t catch it

 

But most guys would be like that to a pretty girl. They like to brag about their balls and skills.

It’s fairly normal macho behavior.

 



Xander - Once again, Xander shows up when Buffy is getting her ass kicked (and may not win) and he's the only one of the Scoobies to appear.  Spike gets to clock him.  Very satisfying.

 

LOL you sadist!



The Gem - Does anyone think it was a good idea for Buffy to give this stupid ring to Angel?  Yeah, it was fun to see Spike run amok in Los Angeles, but really, Angel could go off the tracks any time.

 

Yeah, well…. That’s Buffy not using her brain again

 

 

Another thing:

 

BUFFY: Well, um you didn't call. I'd, uh I understand if you were busy or sick or something.

PARKER: It's only been a few days. You need to talk to me about something.

BUFFY: Is everything okay?

PARKER: Sure it is.

BUFFY: It is?

PARKER: Sure.

Buffy; Oh, um, so maybe do you wanna do something?

PARKER: Sure, we could do that, absolutely.

BUFFY: So what about tonight.

PARKER: Oh... Uh... I think I'm supposed to get together with some people later ...

BUFFY: Parker did I do something wrong?

PARKER: Something wrong? No, of course not. It was fun. Didn't you have fun? Watch out how you answer that. My ego is fragile.

BUFFY: You had fun? Was that all it was?

 

 

Look at what she says above!! OMG does she not see it??

 



PARKER: What else was it supposed to be?

BUFFY: It seemed like you liked me.

PARKER: I do. But I'm starting to feel like you felt what? Some kind of commitment? Are you sure that's what you want right now?

BUFFY: I just thought...

PARKER: I'm sorry if you missed something. I thought things were pretty clear.

BUFFY: I'm sorry if I miss. I'm sorry.

PARKER: Look, I really have to go now.

(He walks off leaving Buffy looking dejected.)

BUFFY: Parker wait. I did this all wrong.

 

Then she turns around and says she’s sorry?!?


PARKER: No, it's cool. We'll hook up later.

 

 

This is something that really irritates me in relationships. If a guy treats you like shit you think it’s your fault.

 

WTF is up with that!!!!?!!!

 

I would say more and possibly something profound but my cat is sleeping on my lap so my leg is asleep and if I don’t move her my leg will fall off O.o

Aug 31 2009 03:34 pm   #12goldenusagi
The real question is why Spike screams like that when Buffy pulls the ring off him.  They were in the SHADE.  He doesn't even start smoking until he runs into the sun to get into that sewer opening.
Aug 31 2009 05:54 pm   #13BloodyHell 
The real question is why Spike screams like that when Buffy pulls the ring off him.  They were in the SHADE.  He doesn't even start smoking until he runs into the sun to get into that sewer opening.

Maybe the shock? Or for dramatic effects?
Aug 31 2009 11:10 pm   #14FetchingMadScientist
think Spike screamed because Mr. Marsters had to do something to "sell" the point that Buffy took the ring.  Without that scream I never would have known that Buffy had even taken the ring. ...And because the director told him to? LOL

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Sep 01 2009 04:14 am   #15nmcil

"think Spike screamed because Mr. Marsters had to do something to "sell" the point that Buffy took the ring." Without that scream I never would have known that Buffy had even took the ring. ...And because the director told him to? LOL "

Quote Option not working for anyone else?

The idea of being in shade as a protection against the sun always felt wrong to me - like a lazy plot device to get vamps out in the sunlight - just like having a sewer cover conveniently right next to their battle location. Dumbing Spike down to showing Buffy his new source of ultimate power - how lame is that? This is like putting him in the same category as ditzy Harmony. This is suppose to be the same vampire that did all the research and put all the information together that enabled him to find the lost treasure - makes little sense.

What we do see in this scene is that passion that will eventually erupt between these two characters - Spike is seriously kicking her butt until she goes into rage mode from her lingering heartache and trauma from Angel/Angelus. Their fight is a wonderful exposition on her history with Angel/Angelus, her deep need and desire for connecting with Mr. Normal, and her tragic future with Spike. With Spike, they both get entangled with all her past Boy Friends crap - Spike actually suffers most from all her "love" history in season six. If he thinks he has suffered some "serious kicking of his ass" before, season six will teaches him what serious Buffy anger and hatred really means.

Spike and Parker are, IMO, telling the tale of Buffy-Riley Future:

 

SPIKE: I wonder what went wrong. Were you too strong? Did you bruise the boy? Whatever. I guess you're not worth a second go. Come to think of it seems like someone told me that. Who was it? Oh, yeah. Angel.

What always strikes me the most with Buffy-Willow boy friend talk scenes is how very young and how limited their experience with men really is. Even now that they are starting this new phase in life, they are still depicted as pretty inexperienced about love. With their Angel Boy Friend talks I could feel nothing but pity and sorrow for their innocence and youth - with Parker and Riley more of the same. Of course Buffy feel into Riley's waiting Mr. Decent arms, after Angel/Angelus and Creepy Parker he must have felt like her salvation. And while, we can't speak for what Joss Whedon and the writers were intending with Buffy-Riley, it is an interesting visual and symbol, that Buffy and Riley first kiss in an experiment.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 01 2009 06:30 am   #16Scarlet Ibis
I also wonder about the whole "boring" thing. Viewers may find Riley boring, but obviously Buffy found him interesting. She'd ditched her friends for him. Why would she stay in the relationship if Riley was boring?

She really didn't, at first.  She flung herself into Riley after being engaged to Spike, and really...she didn't necessarily ditch her friends for him, so much as the Initiative, and hanging out with the whole team and stuff.  It wasn't just Riley.  Add the fact that Riley was still there in the morning, which implied solid and reliable.  But that doesn't make heat and desire.  In fact, the only real heat they had was spurred by some repressed poltergeists...

Agree with someone up above--Willow and Buffy's friendship clearly wasn't that solid, as s4 shows us...I'm not sure what to have called them (at that point) really.  It was kind of weird, all the secrecy and...then the Faith switch thing.  No one noticed a difference.  But I'm jumping the gun a lot here.  Nevermind me.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Sep 01 2009 01:58 pm   #17mesh 
The real question is why Spike screams like that when Buffy pulls the ring off him.  They were in the SHADE.  He doesn't even start smoking until he runs into the sun to get into that sewer opening.

Probably anger and shock as bloodyhell said. He was probably thinking "Damn, she's foiled me again!!"
Sep 01 2009 02:29 pm   #18sosa lola
then the Faith switch thing.  No one noticed a difference.  But I'm jumping the gun a lot here.

Obviously, no one noticed because it's more fun this way. If the characters knew that Buffy was Faith, the episode would be boring. Same goes for Buffybot.
Sep 01 2009 06:10 pm   #19nmcil
"Add the fact that Riley was still there in the morning, which implied solid and reliable.  But that doesn't make heat and desire"

We get back to this theme of heat and passion that burns you up in "Seeing Red." 

Why was Riley so boring?  I think that for many viewers like myself, he was too much of the extreme contrast to Angel/Angelus or Spike and came across as Buffy's safe fall back position. 

Something Blue:

BUFFY: It's just, different, you know? A picnic. First of all, daylight - kind of a new venue, Buffywise. And the best part - he said he would bring all the food, so all I have to do was to show up and eat. Those are two things I'm really good at.

WILLOW: So he's nice?

BUFFY: Very, very.

WILLOW: And there's sparkage?

BUFFY: Yeah. He's- have you seen his arms? Those are good arms to have. I really like him. I do.

WILLOW: But..?

BUFFY: I don't know. I really like being around him, you know? And I think he cares about me.. but.. I just.. feel like something's missing.

WILLOW: He's not making you miserable?

BUFFY: Exactly. Riley seems so solid. Like he wouldn't cause me heartache.

WILLOW: (Fake worry) Get out. Get out while there's still time.

BUFFY: I know.. I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA.. even for five minutes.. hello to the pain.

WILLOW: The pain is not a friend.

BUFFY: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

(Suddenly a vampire jumps out from behind a bush. Buffy stakes him without so much as looking the other way. He crumbles to dust and she and Willow continue on their way)

BUFFY: I wonder where I get that from.

While we skipped "Living Conditions" I watched it last night and realized that this is the first time that Veruca is introduced - I never really noticed this before.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 02 2009 04:36 am   #20nmcil

What are your ideas about how desperate Buffy is about this getting of a boy friend just as she enters collage? Why the utterly insecure character treatment? At the end of the season opening we find Buffy back in the more confident Slayer Mode and saying she can deal with her new challenges as college coed - then we have her thrown back into "pathetic insecure" young woman. Watching "HLOD" again, I was struck with how much her after sex night scene reminded me of the same mode from "AYW - pathetic Buffy chasing her emotional delusion of Riley as her perfect Mr. Joe Normal.

Considering her rage with Spike's taunts about Angel/Angeles sexual experience - the psychological implications from that rage, IMO, are significant. Coupled with the ending and her immediate decision to send this extremely powerful magical ultra protection off to Angel knowing the potential disaster from the parameters of his soul curse - just how ready was Buffy to really make a move with her life? Were the writers serious with the Buffy-Riley Love or do you think that this arc was more as an exploration of the emotional status of Buffy trying to deal with her past and Angel/Angelus? Yes, we have all that I Am So In Love With You Riley, but there are always the bottom layer conflicts there as well.

Why did the writers throw Buffy so far back into "pathetic needy girl" with this quest for a boy friend - was it a set-up for Riley to be the great good boy friend?

Willow and Buffy are still treated as really silly young girls - they don't even seem like collage age young women to me - they seemed more like they were still in their mid teens from their high school era, especially Willow, all excited about cute guys.

I do love the ending scene of "HLOD" - all those women: demon trying to find her human life, human girl turned demon trying to find love, and the human girl so lost and trying to find her own self worth. Plus the added nice touch of Willow being all solid and stable with OZ and all her world ready to come crashing down on her.


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 02 2009 04:37 am   #21nmcil
NICE seeing Spike all sexy with Harmony - but what a total evil jerk he was with her - kind of fun seeing Evil Spike again - we get away from this aspect of his character so much with Fan Fiction -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 02 2009 10:13 am   #22goldenusagi
Okay Spike digs a big tunnel to get into a crypt.  Why?  Wouldn't it be easier to just bust into the crypt?  Of course it would, which leads me to think that Joss already had the big S7 finale planned in S4 and maybe before.

I got the impression that it was a completely underground structure, where the original entrance must be hidden or lost or caved in.  For several reasons, I doubt that it was planned to tie in with Chosen.
Sep 03 2009 06:13 am   #23Scarlet Ibis
For several reasons, I doubt that it was planned to tie in with Chosen.

Oh, do tell...Cause I do, but I'd love to hear a counterpoint.  Actually, I don't think anyone's ever explicitly said this...so I'm very much intrigued!

And why doesn't the quote thing work? 
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Sep 03 2009 06:15 am   #24Scarlet Ibis
Also, I just wanted to mention that "Living Conditions" is kind of important cause of the whole soul sucking thing, and Buffy's altered behavior, which will come up again in "Dracula," and the introduction of Dawn and...

Yes.  I have a theory.  And no, it's not a demon.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Sep 03 2009 12:14 pm   #25GoldenUsagi 
I just don't think that Joss had this grand plan for Spike at the beginning of S4. His arc was always evolving (as in what the writers were doing with him at the time), from disposable villain, to guest villain, to non-Scooby regular, and finally to hero.  Yes, it's entirely possible that someone looked back , and then we get HLoD necklace and the Chosen necklace similarity.  But it was painfully obvious that they were floundering for a way to work Spike in in S4.  And in S5, but then they had him fall in love with Buffy, which worked.  But I it boils down to them wanting JM as a permanent cast member, which meant that they had no choice but to turn Spike good (or at least not bad) in order for him to last the whole season.  I just don't think at that point that Joss had Spike saving the world planned.  He might have had an idea that he'd like to split the Slayer power sometime, but as for the details, I don't think so. I just don't buy that at the beginning of S4, they had the end of S7 planned down to the tunnel and the necklace.  It's a nice throwback, but I don't think it was planned this far in advance.
Sep 03 2009 01:33 pm   #26slaymesoftly
I agree with GU. I doubt very seriously that anything was planned that far ahead. Spike's character and role grew right along with his obvious popularity with fans.   He was originally supposed to be slayed (side note: why are things Buffy kills not "slain"?) part way through Season II, then began to attract attention and wormed his way into the mix.

As far as the cache in the crypt goes, I have always thought it was hidden. It's supposed to be quite ancient, and it makes sense that it would have been buried under other stuff by the time Spike had to search for it. I'd have to watch the episode again to be sure, but there may be one of their many logic lapses in the scene where he leaves - in that he appears to just walk out - but it happens off screen, so he could just as easily have dropped back through the hole they made. 
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Sep 03 2009 03:15 pm   #27GoldenUsagi 
No, he does drop back through the hole.  In fact, when Willow, Giles, and Oz go the crypt and find Harmony, Giles and Oz are seen helping Willow climb up.
Sep 03 2009 11:01 pm   #28BandS 
I swear I thought this episode was definitely foreshadowing a heck of a lot!  Harmony - blonde and with Spike.  Who I will swear it seemed they upped the innuendos with him and Buffy.  It was like watching them with some heavy underlying heat between them.  Yeah I have read what is said, but aside from that actions definitely speak more to me.  Then again Spike is sex on legs! 

I thought even then it was approved he was coming on as a Regular?  Because then I am thinking they did have something planned for him...Then again I don't think we will ever really know because I swear most everything I read about what happened during the course of the show keeps changing...hmmm.  I loved this episode...and any good screenwriter will have something at least penciled out as a possiblity for future episodes.  Now whether they use them or not...is another story.

So I'm guessing I'm thinking there was some hush hush conspiracy inside the studios LOL...Ok I so need to get out of work...I am babbling...All I wanted to say was I loved the quipping of this episode and how much I could see of the possibilities to Buffy and Spike...Ta!
Sep 04 2009 01:01 am   #29Eowyn315
Yeah, I'm with Goldensusagi on this one as well. Even if they did have a general plan for Spike's redemption arc that ended with him saving the world (which I am skeptical of), there's no way they had the visuals for the actual scene in the Hellmouth planned out enough to foreshadow it with this episode. If there are similarities, it's because the season 7 writers looked back at this and made the allusions, not planning done four years in advance.

He was originally supposed to be slayed (side note: why are things Buffy kills not "slain"?)

Er... they are slain. Buffy often uses "slayed" instead of "slew" (and, in fact, Willow remarks on that in "What's My Line" and Giles says both are correct, even though they're not), but they do use "slain" where appropriate.

I thought even then it was approved he was coming on as a Regular?


It was decided sometime during season 3 to bring Spike back, when they knew they'd be losing Angel and Cordy to the spin-off. (I've heard that "Lovers Walk" was a test run of sorts with that in mind.) So, yes, during "Harsh Light of Day," they knew he was coming back as a regular, but in terms of a "plan" for him, it was basically "neuter Spike so Buffy won't kill him, then let him snark at them like Cordelia used to." Anything beyond that, I'm pretty sure they were flying by the seat of their pants.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 04 2009 02:34 am   #30nmcil

like all creative people Joss Whedon and the writers responded to the opportunities that Spike and James Marsters' great interpretation brought to the series. It would have been foolish not to use such a great character and excellent actor. And James Marsters had a big "hand of fate" luck for him in that Juliet Landau was not available when they wanted another Spike and Dru round - so it was decided to bring Spike back only - and so it goes. Spike was brought back as solo and James Marsters just took off with the character, as did the writers. Had Juliet Landau been available, it would have had another limited villain arc instead of having Spike becoming a regular cast member.

I personally think that Spike was seen as a potential counterpart to Buffy from this season on and as the replacement for Riley. Not suggesting that the major arc for Buffy-Spike was already set, but the writers and Joss Whedon saw the powerful potential that a Buffy-Spike partnership offered.

I had a chance to watch HLoD again, and Spike has an interesting line about Buffy having sex with Parker and not knowing him very long. It made me think of William/Spike and human trait hidden underneath all that evil Big Bad. I had actually forgotten how many episodes were devoted to the Buffy-Parker arc and set-up for Buffy-Riley. The writers put a lot of effort and screen time to establish Buffy's insecurities and deep emotional need  for a male counterpart.  The next two episodes continue the Buffy emotional needs arc. In "Fearless" we have all the stuff that will come out with Willow and her start of magical control. There is the neat little reference for OZ about hippos wearing skirts that foreshadows the non-traditional couple of OZ & Veruca plus Willow & Tara and his speech to Willow about playing around with the dark side. With Buffy, in "Fearless" we have the scene with honest mother-daughter talk about trying running away from love as a protective device.
With "Beer Bad" it opens Buffy in the pathetic girl mode having fantasies about Parker, but in the interesting context of "saving a life" and the Professor Walsh lecture.

The writers have established a lot psychological and emotional needs in these episodes just before the Buffy-Riley arc -

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 04 2009 03:44 am   #31Spikez_tart
A quick and weird thought - if Buffy hadn't given Angel the Gem, she could have given it to Spike and he would have survived closing the Hellmouth
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 04 2009 05:29 am   #32TammyDevil666
Yeah, if she kept the gem instead, it would have probably made a big difference.  I would have loved to see her giving it to him in the 7th season, that would have been a nice scene.  Fan fiction, anyone?
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Sep 04 2009 06:17 pm   #33nmcil
In the context of the Buffy-Parker set up for Buffy-Riley relationship - do you think that sending the ring to Angel/Angelus is a symbol that she is ready to move on to Riley as Angel's replacement or is she still emotionally and psychologically attached to Angel? 

Like the way the Giles/Watcher-Buffy relationship and his feeling of no longer being a vital part of her Slayer life is being developed throughout these episodes -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 04 2009 06:22 pm   #34nmcil
In the context of the Buffy-Parker set up for Buffy-Riley relationship - do you think that sending the ring to Angel/Angelus is a symbol that she is ready to move on to Riley as Angel's replacement or is she still emotionally and psychologically attached to Angel? 

Like the way the Giles/Watcher-Buffy relationship and his feeling of no longer being a vital part of her Slayer life is being developed throughout these episodes -

What are your feelings about the Buffy pathetic mode treatment - everytime I see this cycle of episodes with Buffy-Parker and even the early Riley intro I just get so angry with how Buffy is depicted.  I just hate all the needy boy friend arc -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 04 2009 10:26 pm   #35Eowyn315
What are your feelings about the Buffy pathetic mode treatment - everytime I see this cycle of episodes with Buffy-Parker and even the early Riley intro I just get so angry with how Buffy is depicted.  I just hate all the needy boy friend arc -

I think it's very in character for Buffy. Just because she's confident as the Slayer doesn't mean she has any self-confidence around guys. We see her as being really mature for her age because she carries way more responsibility than the average teenager and thwarts apocalypses in her spare time, but when it comes to dating, she is painfully immature and inexperienced.

It's evident all through her relationship with Angel - more than once, she flees from the Bronze rather than confront Cordelia, who is throwing herself at Angel. She just assumes that she has no chance of competing, even though Angel's obviously in love with her. When Angel tells her they can't be together, she tries to get back at him by going to a frat party, because she thinks that will make her more mature, and repeatedly plays on Angel's jealousy in a way that's incredibly juvenile. Plus, she's sexually inexperienced, since Angel was her first and only time - and that one time was horribly traumatic. We've only seen her attempt to date two other guys in high school - Owen, who was too in love with danger, and Scott Hope, who unceremoniously dumped her for no good reason. Neither is a particularly confidence-boosting experience, and Buffy is probably starting to wonder if there's anyone out there with whom she can make it work.

She's eighteen, the age when, if you don't have a boyfriend, you wonder what's wrong with you - and that's any normal girl, not even counting the dual blows to Buffy's self-esteem of her boyfriend turning evil after sleeping with her, and being dumped by the guy who was supposed to be her one true love. She's desperate to prove that she's not unlovable, that there's not anything wrong with her. She's desperate to prove that she's over Angel, and thinks that jumping into a new relationship is the best way to do it. And she's desperate to prove that she can make it work with a normal guy, because that's why Angel left her. No wonder she's pathetic around guys. I'd be shocked if she had any self-confidence left.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 05 2009 07:18 am   #36nmcil
Excellent summary Eowyn315 - it is easy to forget how  insecure some young women can be at this age  - plus having lived through a lot of hardships as an adult I guess I just want to see, or at least imagine,  women in a much stronger emotional circumstances.

 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 05 2009 03:25 pm   #37Messiah

I thought even then it was approved he was coming on as a Regular?  Because then I am thinking they did have something planned for him...Then again I don't think we will ever really know because I swear most everything I read about what happened during the course of the show keeps changing...hmmm.  I loved this episode...and any good screenwriter will have something at least penciled out as a possiblity for future episodes.  Now whether they use them or not...is another story.

 

 

I remember watching the special features for season 4 on Spike and they made it clear that they had no idea what they were doing with him. They said they decided to make him a regular for his dark sarcastic humour and laid back attitude.

They said since Cordy left, they needed someone who could break the ice between the scoobies every now and then and not to mention he had gained a legion of fans and upped the popularity of the show (mostly drooling girls lol)

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Sep 07 2009 02:57 am   #38Spikez_tart

 

Aside from the pseudo-cheating he did with the vampire girls - I think that’s a metaphor for real cheating 

 

I completely forgot about his being her TA at the university until Always_jbj brought it up. That fact made it unethical for him to pursue her in the first place. – Wait a minute! You mean I wasn’t supposed to date those hunky grad students?

 

I still maintain that Parker looks like the rat/crack head version of Xander, and creeped me the hell out. – He wasn’t the only one – check out Ford, Jesse, Scott Hope – they’re all sort of Xander look alikes. Very icky.

 

I guess I'm one of the few who actually liked Riley, and at least he wasn't as bad as Parker.  – If you look at the scenes where Riley is acting with other men – Riley with Forrest and/or his squad; Riley fighting Angel (one of my favorites), even the Riley and Adam scenes, he comes off much better. The Riley/Buffy scenes are barfy.

 

Willow has never had another female friend. – True and very weird. Weren’t there any other misfit girls at high school? Hard to believe. Maybe there weren’t any other really geeky misfit girls.

 

sometimes watching episodes we dislike and rarely watch lead us to discover new things. – Very true. I don’t really like Killed by Death, but there are some excellent scenes with Xander and Cordelia and a particularly good scene where Xander fronts EvilAngel. 

 

Because Star of David doesn't work on vampires, only a cross does. I also remember Willow saying that she hides her cross so her dad won't see it in high school years. – Huh – it’s never been tried. Willow tacks a cross under her curtains to keep Angel out after he goes bad. 

 

I don't remember Willow pushing Buffy to have sex with Angel though. High School Willow? – Willow is constantly bringing up the subject of Angel. Then there’s this:


Buffy: But... to *not* act on want... What if I never feel this way again?
Willow: Carpe diem. You told me that once.
Buffy: 'Fish of the day'?
Willow: Not carp. (smiles) Carpe. It means 'seize the day.'
Buffy: Right. I... I think we're going to. Seize it. Once you get to a certain point, then seizing is sort of inevitable.
Willow: (wide-eyed) Wow...

 

Well they both kiss each other, caught in passion. – In the first(?) scene in Hush after Buffy wakes up from her little naughty dream, they walk outside and Buffy is waiting for him to kiss her. Instead he runs off and she says “Fortune favors the brave” and looks disappointed. 

 

They don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter! That’s the best part. 

 

What do u mean he already had the S7 finale planed out? I don’t understand what your saying here – Joss had the outline of the whole show right down to the part where Spike goes up in flames and closes the Hellmouth – at least in that beady little brain of his.  More likely they worked backward as GoldenU said.

 

If there was an insinuation there, I didn’t catch it – why would Spike care what Buffy did with Parker? Yeah, there’s the whole get Buffy off balance thing, but I think it’s a little more than that. Fan wank alert. 

 
WILLOW: So he's nice? BUFFY: Very, very. – Boy that’s the kiss of death. Angel sucked the air out of the room but Riley is “nice.” 

Yes, we have all that I Am So In Love With You Riley, but there are always the bottom layer conflicts there as well. – Except Buffy never tells Riley that she loves him. (She tells Angel that she loves Riley with all her heart, but maybe she’s just giving Angel a hard time.) 

He's a friend -  LOL - Spike comes into the party with Harmony dragging a dead body (why?) and Buffy describes Spike to Parker as her friend. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 10 2009 03:37 am   #39Sensei
(No, the quote feature isn't working for me either.)  When the thread started Spikes_tart wrote: I skipped right over Living Conditions cause face it, it sucks and Joss couldn't even be bothered writing a roommate character for Buffy that would last more than two weeks.  That's ironic because when I tell a non-BtVS person about how Joss took real life scenarios and then exaggerated them with a "horror" twist, this is the episode I always tell people about!!!  I love other episodes much better, but this is the one I personally identify with most because I had a roommate just like that once: peppy, obsessive, and annoying--only I didn't get rid of her in two weeks like Buffy did!!!

Since the discussion above has so often focused on Buffy and her need to have a man in her life to feel worthwhile and feel  valued as a person, not just as a slayer, I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Girl in Question yet.  I was so thrilled by BtVS season 7 when finally Buffy was the strong one instead of depending on a guy (in fact, she helped Spike most of that season more than he helped her).  Then only a few months after Spike's "death", Buffy is in Rome all involved with The Immortal--yet another guy who isn't good for her!

I just read a fanfic (I think it was Anticipation by 2writers4spike) where they explained why Spike did not just break into the crypt that held the Gem of Amara.  1) He didn't want to leave any evidence for Buffy to realize he'd found the Gem, 2) he didn't want any other demons realizing it and coming after him to get it and 3) he could keep the location a secret by making a tunnel and going back later to get more of the treasure (which for some odd reason he never did in the TV series).

James Marsters saved the Spike character.  No one else could have played him so wonderfully that Joss couldn't bring himself to kill Spike off in Season 2 as he had planned.  Even then, I read that Joss wanted him in season 4 (as someone else mentioned above) to replace the Cordy personality that was always brashly telling the Scoobies things they needed to hear and adding a comical character.  And he certainly is brash and sassy in HLOD in season 4.  But even then, pre-chipped,  he had lost that sense of being the truly dangerous, serious threat  he was in season 2.    (I think that later Anya took over that comic, forthright stereotype because Spike kept evolving and grew past that role.  I wonder if Joss had the season 7 champion Spike planned all along...or did JM bring so much to the character that Joss just started writing more and more depth for him as time passed?)

Sep 10 2009 03:42 am   #40Spikez_tart
this is the episode I always tell people about!! - I knew somebody was going to put in a vote for that episode.    It's not that it's bad so much as it's a one-shot that doesn't really develop the season arc, except the bit where Oz first sees Veruca, which apparently was thrown in as an afterthought because the show ran short.   The Cher record really made my teeth hurt. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 10 2009 03:48 am   #41goldenusagi
3) he could keep the location a secret by making a tunnel and going back later to get more of the treasure (which for some odd reason he never did in the TV series).

Didn't his tunneling collapse a highway?  Not so secret.  I'm sure he didn't intend to cave something in, but....
Sep 10 2009 07:02 am   #42nmcil
According to Joss in the Special Features of Season Four DVD - he states that the decision to have Spike a regular cast member was made after Lover's Walk -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 11 2009 03:17 am   #43Spikez_tart
he states that the decision to have Spike a regular cast member was made after Lover's Walk -

Uh huh.  Big Fat Liar.  Like he didn't decide two minutes after School Hard ended and he got a couple thousand emails.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 11 2009 07:22 am   #44nmcil
Wonder what Joss thinks now about his Buffy-Angel arc.  Watched some of the Paley Reunion on youtube last night and a young woman asked him about putting together such a very young woman (she was especially interested  because she remembers what she was like in that same time of life and how now being older has affected her perspective on the relationship)

Joss answered with his reference to Juliet's age in also that being The Slayer put Buffy in a very different category from normal young people of her same age group.  He also stated that Angel/Angelus was the only type of male that Buffy would have been attracted to and love.  Maybe teenage girls have radically changed, but I remember looking at nothing but boys pretty much my same age or couple of years older.  And anyway, Buffy is totally treated outside of her slayer duties as a very normal teenage girl.  Buffy and Willow are not treated as particularly mature for their age when they are not doing Scooby Duty. 

I know that young people in today's world have very different concerns and social needs from my youth - but Buffy and the rest of the Scoobies, while depicted as not of the "Popular Crowd" - somewhat outsiders, they are not shown as drastically different.   I find that I am more confused  about his choice of putting Buffy with Angel/Angelus.  I totally can understand his idea that being The Slayer makdes Buffy very different, but I don't get the contradiction of the "young girls treatment"  and the Slayer/Buffy is not the normal teen.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 12 2009 12:10 am   #45Spikez_tart
Juliet's age - Romeo was 17 or something to Juliet's 13?.  Not  240.  Also at the time Shakespeare was writing, it was acceptable for girls to marry at a very young age.  When your expected life span was maybe 40, less if you were a girl, you had to get moving.  Also, there was no such thing as a "teenager" in the way we understand it.  Young people were not allowed to hang around at school till they were 30 and play games all the time.  They had to work and become adults and pull their weight at a very young age. In no way does the Juliet situation apply to Buffy.  So I say baloney.

Angel was the only one - more baloney - At 16 girls want desparately to be noticed by a male of the species.  Buffy was perfectly crazy about Owen until she realized he had a death wish or something.  Buffy liked Angel cause he was hot looking and older (appears in his mid 20's maybe) and mysterious and hot looking and he has an extensive black leather wardrobe.  What 16 year old wouldn't go for a guy like that if he paid her the slightest bit of attention, but that doesn't mean he was the ONLY one.   

Has anyone noticed how the Twilight vampire guy's hair looks just like Angel's?

      

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 12 2009 01:20 am   #46goldenusagi
Edward's hair grows straight up, so he must be bloody stupid. 
Sep 12 2009 03:34 am   #47~ Ami 
Sometimes I wonder if Joss believes all that BS he spews. 
Sep 12 2009 06:28 am   #48nmcil
I think DB was  28 when he first played Angel - but he starts to look older pretty fast - his body changed quite a bit after the first season.  By the time of "Chosen" and his move to LA - he already looks much to old  to play the same character from early season Buffy.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 12 2009 08:40 am   #49nmcil
For me the connection to Juliet's age does not in anyway apply - as you state, it was a completely different society with standards and traditions utterly different to The Buffyverse time period.  In our society a 13 year old is considered a child and we are horrified by practices in different cultures that promote marriage of girls at this age or any kind of sexual conduct with young people of this age up and even up to 18 years.  Even after 18, I suspect that most parents would be uncomfortable with an older man having a relationship with a daughter of this age. Very true, that some girls are exceptionally mature at this stage of life and there are always exceptions to be made - but generally most are only just starting to experience life as adults. 

Juliet was a grand creation -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 12 2009 06:23 pm   #50e33l 

David Boreanaz was 28 when he started Buffy, and SMG was 20 when her character of Buffy turned 17. James Marsters turned 35 a month before his first appearance in School Hard (if you can believe that! He's so hot and young-looking, and definitely looks younger than DB! )

If SMG was twenty, she was only three years older than the high school girl they were trying to get her to act. I think they really overdid it by trying to make it obvious that Buffy was a teenager, having her be immature and whiny and dramatic and just like a spoiled teen girl and wearing ridiculously short skirts and bobble rings. She was the Slayer, which meant risking her life because she had to (whine), and making the tough decisions. But when she wasn't in the midst of a charged battle, even while discussing important, life-threatening danger, she was so immature! In contrast, Angel was way too experienced and almost jaded and old for her, and his personality wasn't young at all, sucking the chance of fun away from his teenage counterpart. Were we supposed to think it was grown-up feelings because Buffy was miserable instead of a light, fun crush with a boy her own age?

Joss's argument about Buffy not being in the same category of girls her age is lousy. Much of the point was that Buffy was just like girls her age, despite being special as the Slayer. The only way that argument made any sense is if Joss was talking about how Slayers don't live very long. If a teenager and an older man fell in love in real life, usually they'd understand that they needed to wait for her to at least become legal before moving forward in their relationship, and understand that they could grow apart. I guess the fact that Buffy could die doing her duty at any time makes waiting to express the love she is so sure of in the moment, waiting and maybe missing having that happiness while she's alive, makes sense. Sorta. Maybe.

But the Buffy/Angel age thing referring to maturity and experience and how they thought about feelings-- shouldn't have been a couple!!

 

A little OT, but I've heard a lot of people argue about Spike's age as a human in fanon. Of course, Buffy's age is made clear in canon, but it's three or four years younger than the actress SMG. I think I prefer making Spike's age closer to Buffy's because of his personality and immaturity and even thoughts about love.

Sep 13 2009 08:31 am   #51nmcil
What is the general age that the writers give William?  I think of him between 25 and 28.  With Liam, we have the problem of his age when he meets Darla - which I think of around 26-28,  but once he is turned he comes across as older.  It's becomes harder for me to assign an age to Angelus because he acts so much older.  Spike seems more connected to William's age for some reason. 

What about Darla and Dru?  I usually think of Darla at her late 20's - Dru from the context of her history would have to had been very young - what age does she get assigned by most writers?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 13 2009 03:31 pm   #52sosa lola
I remember in the commentary for LMPTM, the writers saying something about William being a mama's boy and he's in his thirties -or thirty years old. So, I guess William was turned when he was thirty.
Sep 13 2009 09:58 pm   #53nmcil
Thanks for the clarification - I guess that goes well with his line about still has hopes to marry - but thirty seems a little old for William to me, even with being a Mama's Boy William feels younger to me.  But if the writers give his age in his thirties guess that is the canon.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 13 2009 10:00 pm   #54Tammy 
Not sure about canon, but I've seen in fictions that most people make him 26 or 28.  I always figured he was somewhere around there.
Sep 13 2009 11:38 pm   #55Spikez_tart
This way lies insanity - the show is very messed up about Spike's age.  In the Initiative he tells Willow that he's 126.  The show was aired in October 1999, so that would mean he was born in 1873.  But, he was an adult in 1880 when he was turned (per FFL), which would have made him 7.  Makes your head spin.  The 126 figure is probably where the writers come up with the 26 figure, which seems right to me for no particular reason other than he looks about that age.  Hard to believe that JM was already 35.  He looks like such a baby.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 14 2009 12:20 am   #56Niori 
Maybe they meant that he was a vampire for 126 years? That, when he said that to Willow, he didn't add in his human life.
I've alwauys thought he was late twenties (25-28ish). Or at least that's where I'd peg him.  That's the range a lot of authors throw in too.

Niori
Sep 14 2009 02:12 am   #57Spikez_tart

Maybe they meant that he was a vampire for 126 years? - It isn't clear what the 126 refers to but the numbers don't work out that way either; 1880 to 1999 is 119 years.  It wouldn't be 126 years from his death until 2006.  It just doesn't work out.  The writers weren't paying attention.

Spike : I'm only 126.
Willow : You're being too hard on yourself.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 14 2009 03:24 am   #58slaymesoftly
Like you said, Tart, that way lies insanity. There was no consistency.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Sep 14 2009 07:58 am   #59nmcil
You would think that something like a character's age would be a simple fact -  I was trying to get Romeo's age after hearing Joss Whedon's reference to Juliet and a lot of guess work there as well as his age is never given. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 23 2009 09:58 pm   #60sosa lola
- On Spike being a jerk to Harmony, after watching this episode, I really can't blame him. She is annoying. But I did feel bad for her later when he tried to kill her. Now that's scary. Spike, hon, you need to go to an anger management class. Yelling and beating Harmony might be okay, who can blame you? But killing her?

- James' accent is so awful here! I cringed a lot. Was he that bad in S2? I didn't notice at all, but in this ep it's so notable. He does get better later though.

- Spike is HOT, HOT, HOT!!! I think S4 totally agrees with him... looks!wise.

- Is Buffy too dense or something? I understand what it feels like to be fooled by a jerk (been there) but I didn't have the same stupid thoughts. While watching, I reacted the same as Willow, "I think you're missing something about this whole poop head principal." Parker is a poophead, all he said were lines to get into Buffy's pants, and he succeeded. Poor Buffy is so hurt to see that.

- Xander thinks like a stereotype woman, while Anya thinks like a stereotype man. Anya thinks they should have sex, Xander thinks they're rushing things, and they should start a relationship first. Xanya is one cute, fun relationship. Hee! Poor Xander is still effected by his Faith experience, when Anya said she's over him, from his response I got that he already expected it. Poor guy.
Oct 23 2009 11:44 pm   #61Spikez_tart
Was he that bad in S2?  - Nope, he was worse.    We forgive him cause he's so cute.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 24 2009 12:23 am   #62Tammy 
I never noticed a problem with his accent.  I always thought he had it down pretty good.  Hell, until I found out the truth, I thought he was really British.  If James tries the accent now, then it doesn't sound as good, but I never noticed anything wrong with it on the show.
Oct 24 2009 01:12 am   #63Niori 
I'm with Tammy- I thought he was British for the longest time. The accent sounded good to me, especially when you compare it to some of the others *cough cough Angel* *cough cough Kendra*
Oct 24 2009 01:46 am   #64969 

I've heard people say that Spike deserves the treatment he gets from Buffy in season six because of how he treats Harmony here. First, I'd like to say that someone who hurts another person doesn't deserve emotional and physical pain, in my opinion. But does it make a difference that Harmony is a vampire and that Buffy is still human, though a Slayer, and should think about human emotional values or morals or whatev? I always thought Harmony was shallow and whiny and that made me think her feelings weren't very deep or real, especially as a vapid vampire, so I didn't think it was the same as season six Spike's emotional pain when he LOVED Buffy and she beat him up outside a police station and left him to die with utter carelessness.

I always felt this Spike didn't fit. In season two, he was 'bad' but what made him interesting was his care for Drusilla and his understanding of very human emotions like tenderness and love. I felt they cheapened his character by turning him into the stereotypical bastard to his girlfriend here, and they were trying to make him more like Angelus treated Buffy. It was lousy. I could only think that they ignored what they'd made his character beforehand so that they could have on last hurrah for him as really evil before they turned him gray, so they did everything evil they could think of. They made him abusive and cruel to his girlfriend, harsh on the minions with no friends, seeking power in the form of the Gem of Amara, and his first act with power had nothing to do with him enjoying the sun or doing something fun, but in killing a girl he hates, and whom he sneers at and mocks and beats on. The only reason I even recognize Spike as the character I liked before was that clip in the frat party and just outside.

Oct 24 2009 08:13 am   #65nmcil
One thing that we have to consider about Spike and Harmony is that this Spike is not in love with Harmony.  Spike's "lover persona" is to be understood in the context of his relationship to Drusilla, that persona does not automatically transfer to his time with Harmony.  James Marsters in his commentary describes the Spike of HLOD as totally disgusted and extremely angry with women and that Harmony is the victim of all his anger and hatred.  Talk about   "payback" of his treatment of Harmony with how he is treated by Buffy.   Mercedes McNab played Harmony so well, you could not help but feel for her in HLOD -

Spike staking Harmony was horrible and one of the really stunning Evil Spike moments of the entire series - but, IMO, he cannot be compared to his conduct as Dru's lover.  And while I am not in any way suggesting that his behavior is not reprehensible and utterly heartless and cruel - he does follow the model of evil vampires within this time line of his story.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 24 2009 08:28 am   #66Teena 
My thoughts are that Buffy was a people pleaser! and that was how she lived her life. Her so called friends knew this and ran with it! Even Giles who was the worst. Her Mother was the best yardstick for her.Why did the write her out,that was a mistake I think!Dawn was another.They all seemed to use her in way or another shame really,
Oct 24 2009 07:20 pm   #67Scarf Pet 
I don't think it's fair to compare Spike/Harmony to Buffy/Spike.  Well, not that it's not fair, so much as not a fair comparison.  As much of a bastard he was to Harmony, Buffy was still leagues worse.  Well, I take it back--go ahead and comapre it, and then see how much awful one was over the other. 

And for those to suggest that Spike had it coming in s6 because of his treatment of Harmony in s4, then I ask what is it that Buffy herself has coming for the disgusting way she treated Spike in s6? 

Yes, Spike staked her cause she was annoying the hell out of him in a moment of anger, but keep in mind he is soulless and really "evil" at this point.  So at least he has that to fall back on for his behavior.  At least he didn't beat or hit her (just that one time in "Destiny," but that was cause she was insane and trying to kill him).  And possibly "Crush," when she tried to kill him, but I don't recall that very clearly.  I think he threw her there.  But yeah--to stake to kill is better than to stake for the purpose of torturing someone (e.g. Riley) or to beat the hell out of them cause you can (e.g. Buffy, and Faith).  And even then, Harmony being his girlfriend was no secret--he at least gave her that courtesy as opposed to treating her like some dirty secret or a side fuck.  He was faithful (and before anyone mentions his trying to put the moves on Buffy in s5 while Harmony was living with him, well, she wasn't his gf then--they were just cohabitating and sometimes having sex).

Anyway, regardless of how one views a soulless vampire--if they're less than or whatever, that still does not justify how someone in a position of power over them who is human (Riley, Buffy or Faith) to act inhumanely, because humans are supposed to be better than that.  Supposed to be, but really aren't.  Not even talking RL stuff here, but just what's shown in the 'verse.

And Buffy didn't have to be a people pleaser--she could have made her own choices. 
Oct 24 2009 09:13 pm   #68sosa lola
I've heard people say that Spike deserves the treatment he gets from Buffy in season six because of how he treats Harmony here.

I was thinking of writing a drabble about this. Five characters bitten in the ass by karma, heh. Spike is one of them, he'd be thinking about how awful he'd treated Harmony after a night of beat on Spike with Buffy.

My thoughts are that Buffy was a people pleaser! and that was how she lived her life. Her so called friends knew this and ran with it! Even Giles who was the worst.

I disagree. Buffy never cared what her friends thought when she dated Angel. With Spike, she was mostly disgusted with her relationship with him, so ashamed of him that she didn't want anyone to know. It wasn't much about her friends as it was about her.

How did the Scoobies know about her being a people pleaser and run with it? I don't understand this.
Oct 25 2009 02:53 am   #69Spikez_tart
Spike deserves the treatment he gets from Buffy in season six because of how he treats Harmony here - it might be more accurate to say that Spike needed to acknowledge that he didn't treat Harmony well as he sort of does in A5. 

My thoughts are that Buffy was a people pleaser! How did the Scoobies know about her being a people pleaser and run with it?  Buffy does try to make everybody happy and when she can't she lies and hides what she's doing.

They run her life, they make decisions and demands of her.  They don't like her hanging around with Angel, they pretty much demand that she give him up.  When he comes back from hell, Xander insists that she kill him and says that she's forgotten about all the people he killed while Angelus.  Giles is constantly crushing her down for wanting to have fun, yet she bends to his will until it becomes impossible.  Joyce gets mad at her and Buffy takes her hurtful words to heart and runs away from home.  When she comes back, Joyce and Giles gang up and try to monitor her every moment; she cuts off her time with Angel to get back home.  She knows very well that the gang will have a cow about Spike (witness their reaction to seeing Spike and the Buffybot together) and while shame of herself and Spike figure high in her decision to keep him a secret, there's also the constant reminders from Xander that Spike is scum and no right thinking girl would have anything to do with him.

Spike staking Harmony and using his new power to go after Buffy - Spike is EVIL.  He came back to Sunnydale, supposedly, for the express purpose of killing Buffy so he could get his beloved Drusilla to quit cheating on him with fungus demons.  He has no interest in Harmony other than to get laid, which is why he doesn't hesitate to stake her.  James makes you forget that Spike is a bad bad boy sometimes when he's crying in the factory because Dru left him, or sniffling over his hot chocolate with Joyce, but at this point he is still a stone cold killer. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 25 2009 02:34 am   #70nmcil
Even over at AtS, Spike is still disdainful of Harmony and it is not until their scene together at the W&H bar that he seems to think about his treatment of her in the past and acknowledges that Harmony has a lot more going for herself -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 25 2009 02:50 am   #71Scarlet Ibis
I wouldn't say he treated her disdainfully, so much as with indifference.

Even so, at least there was acknowledgment, which is more than others...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 25 2009 02:54 am   #72nmcil

Like your description -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 25 2009 02:20 pm   #73sosa lola
They run her life

No, actually they don't. Giles probably trains her because it's hid job, just like Buffy's job is slaying vampires, Giles' job is traning his slayer and making her ready -sometimes he pushes her too much because he's worried about her, he wants her to be ready for everything, he's already feeling protective of her. Xander and Willow give opinions, Buffy either agrees or disagrees with them. The whole thing with Angel being back isn't so much about Buffy as it is about them as well. Angelus had threated to go after Buffy's friends in S2 to hurt Buffy, he already tried to kill Xander and leave his body in front of Buffy's door in BB&B, I can understand why Xander is so upset with Buffy hiding Angel's return.

The only time the Scoobies controlled Buffy's life was when they brought her back. Other decisions she made they shouldn't be blamed for; Buffy should stand up for herself and stop caring about what others think. Besides, she's selling her friends short. Xander was already understanding when he thought she was sleeping with Spike in S5; his reaction in S6 is clouded with depression, pain and anger, he knew at the worst possible time. If he'd known in the beginning of S6, he'd probably reacted better to it -see Intervention. Willow, Tara, Anya, Dawn and even Giles didn't hate her or look down on her for sleeping with Spike.
Oct 25 2009 08:32 pm   #74Scarlet 
 Buffy should stand up for herself and stop caring about what others think. Besides, she's selling her friends short. Xander was already understanding when he thought she was sleeping with Spike in S5; his reaction in S6 is clouded with depression, pain and anger, he knew at the worst possible time. If he'd known in the beginning of S6, he'd probably reacted better to it -see Intervention. Willow, Tara, Anya, Dawn and even Giles didn't hate her or look down on her for sleeping with Spike.

Yes, I agree.  She was delusional if she thought they would hate her or sponsor another intervention at that point.  Hell, they'd probably be so gung ho on what would make her happy, that they would have encouraged it maybe.  And anyway, Buffy's actions are dictated by Buffy--she had free will, and what she did with her life was all on her.
Oct 26 2009 01:01 am   #75Spikez_tart
 Hell, they'd probably be so gung ho on what would make her happy, that they would have encouraged it maybe.   Most of the gang would have accept their relationship, yes, but Xander would have been hell on wheels.  This is after Xander finds out and he's furious, and not just because Spike had sex with Anya:

BUFFY: It just happened, okay?
XANDER: (chuckles bitterly) Oh, like, uh, "Say, you're evil. Get on me"?
BUFFY: You fought side by side with him when I was gone. You let him take care of Dawn.
XANDER: But I never forgot what he really is. (Buffy looking hurt) God, what were you thinking?
BUFFY: (laughs) You're asking me that? Oh, 'cause your decision making skills have really sparkled lately.
XANDER: I'm not saying I didn't make any mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of them. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 26 2009 01:49 am   #76Niori 
Buffy's decisions are totally Buffy's decisions, but she makes most of her decisions based on what her friends will think. That's not totally her fault- in the past her friends had reacted negitively to her decisions and tore into her (when she came back from LA for example in season three). But when it comes down to it, it is Buffy who makes the final decision on how to control her life.
She honestly puts too much stock in what her friends think, and I honestly think she over estimates how much they would be pissy at her over Spike. I mean, Tara accepted and joked about it at the birthday party, Dawn would be estatic, Anya wouldn't really care much and wish them happy orgasms. The only three who would have an issue, imo, would be Willow, Xander and Giles. Willow would cave quickly enough but I agree that Xander would be furious about it. Giles too, but he wasn't there to judge so it doesn't count.
Oct 26 2009 02:11 am   #77Scarlet Ibis
Tart, you're quoting Xander after he was still smarting from the whole Spike/Anya thing.  If you want a more impartial view of what his reaction may have been, then "Intervention" is the key.  And after the whole Glory thing and Buffy's death, they were friendly.  Xander actually looked ashamed when Spike slammed him against that tree, cause they didn't tell him about her resurrection.  He knew that he betrayed Spike, and he looked remorseful.  Had Buffy told them, he probably would have made some lame joke, and moved on. 

And either way?  Xander wasn't her daddy and he wasn't paying her bills.  She was old enough to make her own choice as to who she should be with.  Worrying about what Xander may think is lower than the coward's route.

But when it comes down to it, it is Buffy who makes the final decision on how to control her life.


Yep.

Except I don't think Willow would care--she's always liked Spike.  And Giles would still have laughed, no matter when he found out (as long as it was season six)--he'd gotten used to Spike.  And I still don't think Xander would have been all "Grr--argh" over it.  There's nothing pre "Entropy" to suggest that.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 26 2009 03:54 pm   #78sosa lola
but Xander would have been hell on wheels

Scarlet said what I already said. Xander knew in the worst possible time. He was mad and about to kill Spike because he slept with Anya, was already depressed because of his actions at the wedding and because Anya rejected him -worst time ever to know about Spuffy. I can see his reaction to it pre-Hell's Bells exactly like in Intervention. He'd obviously have a talk with Spike in which he'd threaten him that he'll stake him if he ever hurts Buffy, same talk Willow had with Riley.

Except I don't think Willow would care--she's always liked Spike.

Come to think of it, I think she would. She didn't react positively to the idea of Spike being in love with Buffy -neither did Joyce. But that's probably before she got to know Spike better. By Crush, Spike wasn't really part of the Scoobies and his help was mostly for money. But in S6, it's obvious he's part of the gang in a way.
Oct 26 2009 05:12 pm   #79Scarlet 
S6 Willow would have been okay with it.  I think she softened toward Spike after he left those unmarked flowers for Joyce.  But generally, she did always like him (though she didn't like the idea of him being in love with Buffy before).  We're talking about a Willow--a Scooby gang really--who saw an overtly grieving Spike, and a Spike who stuck around to help in Sunnydale when there was seemingly no chance of Buffy coming back.  That's the opposite of what an "evil thing" would do, and I don't think they would have been upset in s6 had they known.

Yeah, I'm probably repeating myself (again).
Oct 27 2009 02:32 am   #80Spikez_tart
Xander actually looked ashamed when Spike slammed him against that tree, cause they didn't tell him about her resurrection.  He knew that he betrayed Spike, and he looked remorseful.  Had Buffy told them, he probably would have made some lame joke, and moved on.  And either way?  Xander wasn't her daddy and he wasn't paying her bills. 

Valid points but before Xander looks a little shamefaced, he says:

XANDER: What are you doing out here? I hope you're not going to start your little obsession now that she's around again.

He jumps all over Spike who is doing nothing but leaning against a tree and crying.  These are not the words of a guy who is willing to let Buffy date Spike.  In fact, they could be the words of a guy who is (a) having doubts about his girlfriend and getting married and (b) still carrying a torch.  I think Buffy was right to believe that her friends would not welcome her having a relationship with Spike and I definitely agree that Buffy should have told them to shove it and done what she wanted. 

Willow - she always did go easier on Spike than anyone, but even she makes a face when she's talking to Tara about Buffy and Spike being together. 



 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 27 2009 03:25 am   #81Scarlet Ibis
He jumps all over Spike who is doing nothing but leaning against a tree and crying.

There was a discussion about this on BSV before and lostboy gave a pretty good explanation about it.

Xander was pretty much giving a very inappropriate joke--he wasn't being serious when he said, so much as busting Spike's chops (again, totally inappropriately and ill timed, but this is Xander we're talking about).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 28 2009 06:39 am   #82teena 

I am a mum of 2girls 3boys and I have to tell you I would not want my girls to follow  Buffy"s way of liviing .She seems to be living everyone else's life !That is what joss seemed to be about .But in Australia that is what we try not to be about.As a convict union we try very hard not to be seen that way but our pollies are over the top.ask any aussie and they will tell you give them a chance!

Oct 28 2009 06:52 pm   #83nmcil
Why would Xander's remarks about "Spike's Obsession" be considered a "busting Spike's chops" a joke, inappropriate or not?  Within the context of the episode and the circumstance of Joyce's death and his tone of voice - it does not come off as something that did not come from Xander's true feelings.  Plus, everything in the Joyce Death arc are handled with a very serious, painful and honest quality - Anya's speech in the bedroom is the only instance that I can remember where even a tiny hint of levity is used in this arc. 

While "Intervention" you have the more calm and not a Spike-Buffy Wig-a-thon, again I think the context of the episode is important - it's a fantasy treatment metaphor.  The Huge Friendship theme is like a "down the rabbit hole" - they don't even realize that this is not a real Buffy.  The whole Sex Buffy-Bot-Spike, IMO,  is not about how her friends either accept or don't accept Spike as a potential lover or even as a potential friend to any of them - it's the "mirror world" contrast to what is coming in the reality transformation of Spike's character and his relationship with Buffy.  Even Xander's real sympathy for Spike is used to emphasis this trans formative episode for Spike; his "reality" sacrifice to protect Dawn and Buffy. 

Thanks for starting the new episode discuss - good to get back and see it - I have been busy getting my Dia de Los Muertos installation completed.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 28 2009 07:02 pm   #84Scarlet Ibis
Why would Xander's remarks about "Spike's Obsession" be considered a "busting Spike's chops" a joke, inappropriate or not?  Within the context of the episode and the circumstance of Joyce's death and his tone of voice

Oh no--that was about the Xander and Spike exchange in "Afterlife," not the ep in s5 when Joyce dies, which escapes me at the moment (the one after "The Body" ).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 29 2009 01:52 am   #85Spikez_tart
Xander was pretty much giving a very inappropriate joke (in Afterlife) - I didn't read this as Xander making a joke.  He sounded pretty snotty.  But, we can look back further for Xander's attitude to Spuffy - Something Blue.   He's against it.  He just isn't so nasty because he's at first shocked, then realizes its a spell.  In fact, he isn't so nasty when he goes to talk to Spike about the Buffybot either, although he tells Spike to stay away from her.  It's only after the Chaining Up Incident and Joyce's death that he starts to get really nasty.

I don't think its Spike so much as anybody who could be a serious lover for Buffy (Angel or Spike).  He's okay with Riley, possibly because he also understands (subconsciously?) that Riley is not the long haul guy. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 29 2009 01:16 pm   #86sosa lola
I don't think its Spike so much as anybody who could be a serious lover for Buffy (Angel or Spike).  He's okay with Riley, possibly because he also understands (subconsciously?) that Riley is not the long haul guy.

Why isn't Riley a serious lover for Buffy? I'd argue he's been more serious in the eyes of the Scoobies than Spike -whose relationship or whatever it was called between him and Buffy in S6 was a secret most of the time. Actually, when Spike started to become more serious in Buffy's life, Xander started to accept the relationship they had.
 
I believe Xander thought Riley was the one, or wanted Riley to be the one so badly, not because of selfish reasons but because he thought Riley was the best for her. And he wanted the best for Buffy, which in his opinions were not vampires.

Oct 29 2009 04:56 pm   #87Scarlet Ibis
He wasn't okay with Riley at first.  Then he was eventually like "whatever."  Too much stuff was going on in his life to really be all that concerned about Buffy's relationships.  It wasn't a priority or worth discussing until it got really bad.  And it isn't that Riley was more serious than Spike--it's hard to judge since no one even knew about Spike until the relationship that wasn't, was over.  And Riley wasn't a serious lover for Buffy in my opinion because for the simple reason, she never treated it seriously.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 30 2009 03:27 am   #88Spikez_tart
Why isn't Riley a serious lover for Buffy? - Mostly because he's too bland and boring and there wasn't any conflict between them (which is why Joss had to manufacture the whole Riley getting suck jobs from vampire whores - which admittedly a damn good manufacture.)  Riley's a college student, so's Buffy; Riley fights vampires, so does Buffy; Riley is in the "sun" and so is she.  Boring. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 30 2009 06:01 pm   #89sosa lola

Whether he's boring or not, he was treated as a serious boyfriend. They'd been a stable couple most of the relationship, she'd been happy with him, normal, she's laughing, she goes dancing with him, they go to the beach together, they do normal couple-y things fogether for a whole year. I can see why Xander, and the others, would prefer Riley over Angel or Spike.

Oct 30 2009 06:43 pm   #90* ~ 
 Well let's be honest here---they'd prefer any human over Angel and Spike probably.  And doing normal couple stuff doesn't equate to serious--it just means standard.  Which is usually boring.  Does that mean she has to have an angst fest in every relationship she's in?  No.  But after awhile, you could tell Riley was just some guy she settled on.  Which is why she wasn't so broken up over his departure.  Well, broken up over it at all.

(And no--a bunch of over the top fake crying in "Triangle" doesn't count.  The first thing she does is take down all his pictures and goes on with day to day stuff).
Oct 30 2009 09:09 pm   #91nmcil
I know that the Buffy-Riley relationship is a strong point of disagreement between viewers - but IMO, if we look at their entire arc, combined with the Angel/Angelus experience, Parker,  the emotional and psychological elements in her attachment to Riley, it becomes very difficult for me not to see Riley as her reaching out to escape her pain and trauma from Angel/Angelus.  This does not mean that she did not have feelings for Riley or love him, but the foundation of their relationship, IMO, is not one that could have endured the deep inner demons that she was trying to deal with.  Riley may have been her Wonderful Mr. Normal Not Bad Boy, but considering Buffy's character traits, and Riley's own sense of insecurities in relation to how he saw himself contrasted to her Slayer hood, I personally don't think they were the right or good match.

While the major theme of this season may have been moving on and the transformative phase and problems associated her moving onto adulthood, many of the emotional problems that Buffy had in the previous season still haunt her and they do come into play with her Riley romantic phase. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 30 2009 09:32 pm   #92BandS 
A tad bit delayed and OT on what is being discussed now, but I wanted to comment on the age thing. 

Considering my own story and needing to deal with the age thing...My theory?  I always place Angel at being 30 because he acted like it and even looked it.  Just my opinion.

Darla?  Uh no idea but she too seemed older except being that she is a vampire undead for a long time, and she did do 'cheerleader' well.  I seemed to give her an age around 22-25 maybe 26.

Dru I am so unsure about.  I just make a logical guess to fit into my own story, that is, if it's needed.

Spike/William?  I usually give him an age of 27.  Close enough to be 30 but more than 26.  James, I agree, acted the age well.  He's the only one that I can seem to give legitimate proof from BTVS and Angel canon sites.  I honestly, think they made an innocent mistake...What Spike should have said to cover that 126 should have been 146 altogether.  Human and Vamp years.  (Except Born year would be 1853 vamp year 1880, if that makes sense ...Believe it was 2000 this was said "I'm only 126" Spike says.  I usually change it so he is 27.)  It works out.  126 doesn't.  Did any of these writers think about the math, the history, and the little tid bits of information that are crucial to their characters?  Guess not.  You want a strong character - you need to go in depth and give that character a description and a background.  Presently and future wise?  You can add those as you go along.  But you can't change the past.  The past and judging from all the information I looked up.  Is all over the place.

I want to do research - I want to be able to find the name, dob, where they are from - easily.  Not in 5 million places telling me 5 million different things.  I especially love Christine Feehan's site.  Why?  She does her research like most writers should or do.  She posts it to her site.  It's amazing what she did for research on her Drake Sister's series.  She plotted those sisters out and in such great detail.  The BTVS was sloppy in my opinion.

As far as love interest goes?  She is suppose to be a Slayer, and as Joss points out - Women empowerment.  Yeah, I know, I had to go there, right?  Lol.  Sorry!  Why did she have to be with a guy?  Of course girls, women, young, old - want this.  He didn't have to give her this.  She could have been just as powerful without a love interest.  Am I the only one who viewed this as a cliche for all shows?  Probably why I loved Andrea Zuckerman so much on 90210.  A guy didn't shape her into who she was - or even make her feel loved.  She did that for herself by learning it.  Buffy, and I shake my head at this, because all girls grow up feeling like they need to have a relationship with a guy or girl.  They can't be alone.  I'm one of those statistics, I admit, but now?  No.  Having a relationship doesn't define if you're lovable or not.  If it doesn't work then simply move on.  It's easier said than done, I know.  It's not easy understanding this at the time either.  I just think that sent a bad message to all still growing up...yes - even those in their 20's going into their 30's.  We are all still growing...Well, that's how I look at it anyway!  Buffy to me - and Willow too, still had much growing to do, yet still acted very high school.  In fact a lot of them did.  Even Giles was stuck in the same page just different script (episode) attitude.  Eh, probably just me.  What do you think?  Sorry so long...and rambel-y lol.
Oct 30 2009 10:34 pm   #93Spikez_tart
 And doing normal couple stuff doesn't equate to serious--it just means standard.  Which is usually boring.  Does that mean she has to have an angst fest in every relationship she's in?   Actually, since this is fiction, Angst is absolutely necessary.    I think one of the major Riley/Buffy themes is Buffy's little dream of being normal (which is brought out very strongly on Angel in I Will Remember You.) is her deep desire to have a "normal" relationship and be "just a girl."  Joss crushes that desire here. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 31 2009 02:33 am   #94nmcil

don't know what happened to my post - sorry to have lost it to the computer eater monster - In "Halloween" we also have this theme of Buffy and her  longing for "normal" - her entire trip into chaos of her Janus Mask fiasco is started because she wanted to see what a normal experience with a human Angel would be.

I am going to start a Halloween Thread for those who want to join me in watching a Buffyverse Halloween episode - this is really a good episode and really important in the coming Angel/Angelus arc - it is a great foreshadow for the light/dark, male/female, and double side elements of all humans.  Ethan and his Janus Mask are a great use of metaphor and foreshadow for the coming horrors.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 01 2009 11:28 am   #95sosa lola
Well let's be honest here---they'd prefer any human over Angel and Spike probably.

You think they'd prefer Parker over Spike and Angel?

Nov 01 2009 11:53 pm   #96Sensei
There has been a lot of fanfic that Spike and Buffy really secretly enjoying fighting each other and were never really serious about killing each other.  But I never got that feeling in their fight in HLoD.  In fact, Buffy actually staked Spike during that fight, and he would have been dust if he hadn't been wearing the Gem.  Spike was enjoying the "dance" itself as he beat up Buffy both verbally and physically, but I never had the sense that when the timing was right he would have been hesitant to kill her.  He just enjoyed toying with her too much for his own good.  Spike was definitely winning until his stupid comment about Angel gave Buffy the anger and inner strength to draw upon her Slayer powers and take control of the battle.  (Kudos to SMG who played that so well that I could actually see the change of attitude in her at that moment.)

What do you all think?

Nov 02 2009 03:04 am   #97nmcil
Spike seemed to have the upper hand in their fights during School Hard and HLoD - he was totally kicking Buffy Butt until "he who should not have been named" stirs up all her anger, pain and love.  Interesting that she is losing to Spike when they are taking about Parker, but once Angel/Angelus comes into play, she channels all that emotional energy into defeating the vampire. 

I have been enjoying seeing early series Evil Big Bad - I got pulled into the early Spike-Dru era again when I watched "Halloween"

Who has read the Peter S. Beagle essay  "The Good Vampire: Angel and Spike" from "Five Seasons of Angel"  - read it today and liked it very much. There is certainly a soft spot in his heart for Spike. 

I do think that Spike wanted to kill his third Slayer - Buffy also when it became serious that she go "deadly" on him, definitely wanted to destroy him. I also think that Buffy would have killed him, or been sorely tempted to stake him had he said anything about their first sexual encounter right after "Smashed" takes place.  Anyone else think Buffy was crazy and pissed off enough with herself to kill Spike
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 02 2009 05:23 am   #98Scarlet Ibis
You think they'd prefer Parker over Spike and Angel?

Depends on what year

And I think...Buffy was believing what Spike was saying until he brought up Angel.  To Buffy Angel is not Angelus, and Angelus is the one who said (or implied rather) that she wasn't "worth a second go."  When Angel was back and well and all his senses in tact, he made it clear that yes, he wanted Buffy, which was why they had to be "friends" and then not together at all.  So that kind of snapped her out of her "woe" I think for the moment.  Kind of a, "You're wrong, you son of a bitch--and now I have to kick your ass" or something.

As for "were they really fighting to the death" or what have you...Spike was talking way too much for him to have been serious about killing her IMO.  He doesn't talk quite that much during a fight to the death. Beforehand, sure, but during the fight when your opponenet is down?  He should have went for the killing blow, as opposed to yapping and hurting her wee feelings. He was having too much fun with the verbal barbs.  And Buffy let's him get away, just like she did in "Halloween," so I don't think she would have killed him either. Yes, she stakes him, but one, he let her and two, he was in the sun.  She knew he had the gem, but I guess it's like that thing when kids splash in puddles just to be sure it would get there shoes wet.  Cause you can never be too sure.

(And yes, I'm aware that neither could kill the other, cause the writers [eventually] had no intention of killing Spike or the lead Buffy unless it was the [presumable] end of the series.  But still, character wise...it holds up)

ETA:  To answer your question nmcil, I don't think she would have killed him had he spilled the beans.  I do think she would have beat the hell out of him, though.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 02 2009 07:04 am   #99nmcil

Scarlet Ibis -

Good Points on the "too much talking" -  but with that ring, he probably thought that he was invincible and could take some time to taunt her and so big damage to her ego.  Remember that one of the reasons that Spike comes looking for that ring is to get some of his own ego rebuilt after having.

SPIKE: Listen to me, you stupid bint. This gem is everything I came back to Sunnydale for, which has witnessed some truly spectacular kickings of my ass. Now, when I have the gem, they'll all die, don't worry.

SMG played that "morning after scene" so well -  those two made a great connection, both as the characters and as performers.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 02 2009 07:09 am   #100Tammy 
I still think Spike was really stupid in this fight.  Not only does he bring Angel up, which he should have known would get her ultimately pissed off enough to kick his ass even harder, but he's also stupid enough to flash the gem in her face like a moron.  It's like he wanted to lose the fight.  She didn't know what the gem looked like, he might as well have just given it to her.  
Nov 02 2009 11:20 pm   #101nmcil
We all know that the series is not Real Life and the a great deal of the action is plot device and plot advancement - like showing off his ring.  Spike was a total evil vampire killer, but the character also did not fit into what I would think of as Total Killer Instinct - a real TKI would never have given up his advantage so stupidly as he does in their fight.
also, since I have been watching Evil Spike & Dru episodes these last few days - I was reminded how much the changed the character. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 03 2009 05:06 am   #102Eowyn315
Anyone else think Buffy was crazy and pissed off enough with herself to kill Spike

After Smashed? No, not at all. Spike is her only lifeline at that point. She needs him, whether she wants to admit it or not, and I can't see her letting go of that, no matter how angry at him she is.

Not only does he bring Angel up, which he should have known would get her ultimately pissed off enough to kick his ass even harder

Nah, I think it's the opposite. I think Spike brought up Angel fully expecting that to be the final (verbal) blow that completely destroys her self-confidence, and he just read her totally wrong and got the exact opposite reaction than what he was trying for. I do think Spike was serious about killing her, but (as often happens with Spike), he got cocky and overplayed his hand. He thought he was invincible, figured there was no way Buffy was walking away this time, so he wanted to enjoy it, savor the moment. This kill was going to be extra satisfying, not just his third Slayer, but finally defeating the one who has brought him so much embarrassment and failure. Unfortunately, he spent too much time savoring the moment and not enough time seizing it, and Buffy managed to get the upper hand.

Buffy, I think, is less concerned about Spike. Yes, he's evil and dangerous, and she'll try to kill him if he provokes her, but she's got more than enough vampires to slay, so she's not as fixated on Spike as he is on her. I think that's why she lets him go when he runs away - he's not worth chasing, especially not when she's tired out from fighting him and/or has other people to protect. She'll live to fight him another day, and in the meantime, there's plenty of other vamps in the sea.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.