watch the episode and then gives us your ideas about this episode -

One thing I liked about this one, is the pairing of Giles and Xander - they are really fun together on this one.

Also noted how the operation of Spike's chip changed - in these intro episodes about the Iniative,  he can actually fight and hit people, the chip only activates when he tries to bite someone. 

Since Xander plays such a large part in this episode this might be a good episode to talk about how his insecurities play out in his role with the College Scoobies and his new phase as a working adult. 

The question that keeps coming back to me is does Buffy really resolve her "need a boyfriend" issues with the ending of Parker cycle and start of the Riley Cycle?  How do the points from the Prof. Walsh lecture apply to Buffy and the rest of the Scoobies.   Use of primitive man as a symbols of human & demon traits and basic emotional needs, IMO, works great for how all these characters will develop for the rest of the season - as well as Spike.  NICE how Spike and Riley are already connected together with Buffy even now. 

Does the fact that Buffy in her primal stage stills brings forth her Slayer qualities have any implications for the dynamics of the future Riley-Buffy relationship - Buffy will always be The Slayer and will not be a "normal girl" with her "Mr. Joe Normal."


Prof. WALSH: These are the things we want. Simple things. Comfort, sex, shelter, food. We always want them and we want them all the time. The id doesn't learn it doesn't grow up. It has the ego telling it what it can't have and it has the superego telling it what it should want. But the id works solely out of the pleasure principle. It wants. Whatever social skills you've learned, however much we've evolved, the pleasure principal is at work in all of us. So, how does this conflict with the ego manifest itself in the psyche? What do we do when we can't have what we want?

(Cut back to the graveyard scene again. Buffy stakes all the vamps.)

PARKER: Buffy, I don't know what to say. After the way I've treated you, and now I owe you my life.

(We see that Parker now has a bouquet of flowers and ice cream in his hand)

PARKER: Can you ever forgive me?

An interesting point - in the first save Parker scene he wears a red parka, the second save scene he is wearing totally different look, open shirt like Spike often wears but with the color and style that Riley would wear, and of course we have the ice cream and roses.

Anyone have a good alternative for Scoobies - I positively hate having to use this term.

I am a huge fan of the primal Slayer source, so I might have liked this episode to go in a different direction, but for what it was, I liked it a lot. It really did a great job of focusing on Buffy the Girl, at college and concerned with what other people think and expect and judge her by, and how she thinks she should behave or what choices she should make. I really liked that Cave Buffy knocked Parker out immediately and thought he was "bad"-- it showed that Buffy's uncivilized side didn't feel a connection or attraction to Parker, that she didn't want comfort or sex from him. It was only her civilized mind telling her she should have a boyfriend and that she's not the kind of girl to have a one-night stand, so she needs to make it up with Parker because she couldn't have been wrong about him, he must be a nice guy who does care about her! The reason she dreams of making up with him isn't that she wants him, it's that she thinks she should be with somebody and he's the choice that makes sense.  What does this mean for her getting together with Riley? Personally, I felt she should have come up with her crazy cookie dough speech here. She should focus on herself and learning who she is while in college, rather than thinking she needs a boyfriend when she isn't sure who she is or what she wants to know what she needs in a boyfriend.

I wonder if it's a sign that the Slayer's protective instinct is a part of Buffy, or if Buffy had made the desire to protect a part of herself through life and death battles, that made her go toward the smell of fire to save someone?

So, is Buffy still on the "I need/social expectations" mode with Riley?  Not sure that I agree with your idea about "he is the choice that makes sense" with Parker - Buffy seems just to fall for his Good Looks and Sensitive Guy persona.  Perhaps what she is seeing or needing from Parker is a variation of Angel/Angelus - the sensitive and emotionally open boy friend.  I'm thinking of what she tells Riley during their melt-down argument when he lost he enhanced strengths.  Buffy claims that she has never opened her heart up to anyone as she has with him.  I think that Parker is a significant symbol of her transition from Angel/Angelus to Riley.  Do I remember correctly that Riley even refers to himself as "mr. normal" or something like this in the episode?

What do you make of the Xander treatment in this episode - the writers have really brought out his feelings of insecurity in the college era transition.  Is it significant to the character, or is it used more as a plot device for the tension between the bar owner and the college brats?  Even when Xander is working with Giles, he is treated as insecure and incompetent - Love the scene where he and Giles are checking out weapons and Giles puts that hand gun together with complete ease. 

This episode, IMO, is one of those that oftentimes he the "not so good" label but that has a lot of information and some very nice moments - The makeup and acting by the men who played the college brats is very well done - the actors, IMO, did a fine performance playing primate males. 

It was very poignant and sad to listen to Willow reprimand Parker about his treatment of Buffy as a sexual object knowing what is coming and how she does very much the same thing with Spike. 

Good observations on Buffy not seeing herself as having casual sex - this is a very liberated from social norms concept. 

That is an excellent point, nmcil--and one I hadn't thought of!  Buffy does treat Spike in season 6 the same way Parker treated her.  Was Parker subconsciously a role model for that behavior?  Or did Buffy really so deeply believe that because Spike was souless, treating him that way wasn't wrong but it was only wrong when Parker treated a souled human that way?  (I prefer NOT to believe that Buffy had that little respect for Spike and that she was acting out of her own messed-up-ness rather than her belief that Spike didn't deserve better.  After all she did apologize and say she was sorry when she "broke up" with him and even called him William.)

The other issue with both wanting a boyfriend and in the way she acted just as the others did who drank the beer is that your teenage years (at least mine were!) you want to fit in so desperately and be like everyone else.  College is the age where you transition to being an individual and standing up as your own person instead of following the crowd.  Obviously Buffy hadn't gotten to that point yet!   (which is another reason I don't like what I've been told about the comics--Buffy is back into the "I have to be in a relationship to define who I am".  I thought she outgrew that in season 7.)

 *derailment of topic alert*

Or did Buffy really so deeply believe that because Spike was souless, treating him that way wasn't wrong but it was only wrong when Parker treated a souled human that way?

Yes.  That.

Spike didn't count without a soul to her.  To that I say so?  That's not a justification to treat someone like dirt.

All "Beer Bad" did was show that Buffy's baser self had more common sense.  Parker was an asshat, and just because you were once upon a time treated badly by an asshat, such as Parker, that's no reason to go and do that to someone else.  Further more, if that was the case, and I don't think it was, she would have been a bitch to Riley too, but she wasn't.  


And Parker really wasn't good looking at all.  I mean eww...

Parker looks to me like a girlified Xander -

With the comics, it is not just Buffy that seems to be longing for connections with another significant someone - but in this latest arc, Willow is falling into the same "I can have a normal life or even babies if I want that."  From my perspective, both of the characters are trying to deny the basic core of their character - you can't escape from the vital core of your character - you can make big effort to change your behavior, either to work with your strengths and try to control your bad traits - but you can't try to escape from them.  That is what I think Buffy is doing with her relationship with Riley. 

Can everyone on this site agree that when Buffy bopped Parker on the head it was an excellent Buffy moment? 

Heartwarming moments aside, I think that Buffy is (a) insane and dreaming away her life in the nut house and (b) continually breaking into multiple personalities.  Whenever anything bad happens, Buffy disappears or a "new" Buffy alter ego comes along.  Half the characters on the show are Buffy counterparts.

S1 Buffy dies  - Spike appears (in S2)
S2 Buffy's in a funk re Angel - Buffy the 18th century girlie appears
S2 Buffy's bestest friend Ford tries to kill her - Kendra appears
S2 Not sure why but in Bewitched we get slutty Buffy AND the Buffyrat
S2 Angel's a rat - Hallucinating Buffy (Killed by Death)
S2 Angel's still a rat - poltergeist Buffy
S2 Buffy kills Angel - Anne (S3)
S3 Buffy the runaway is not doing so well - here's Faith (the DarkBuffy!)
S3 Buffy's dad and Giles Dad are a couple of louses - Weakling Buffy
S3 Buffy can't sleep with Angel - Bad Girl Buffy and her Bad Girl twin Faith.
S3 Angel sleeps with Faith - I can hear everything you're thinking Buffy
S4 Angel takes a powder - Spike is back
S4 Parker continues to be a jerk - Cave Buffy

etc etc etc through Dawn and the Buffybot and Invisible Buffy and the cougar in the desert that is Buffy and finally you get to S7 and the 2000 Buffies. 

Am I wrong?

If Buffy was not the lead character and a superhero, she would most likely be in treatment or in a hospital - girl/woman had some series issues. 

I need to watch some of those season 2 episodes you list again. 

Do you think Buffy was seriously doing "self-destruction by incarceration" or was she truly motivated by her sense of individual responsibility for Katrina?  I could believe more in her sense of justice demanded if she had not wailed on Spike in that alley or if she had given a little more thought to Dawn's need for a sister and caretaker - I guess Dawn would have been a ward of the state.   I still believe that most of Season Six was Buffy's nightmare world made flesh.

If Buffy was not the lead character and a superhero, she would most likely be in treatment or in a hospital - girl/woman had some series issues. 

I need to watch some of those season 2 episodes you list again. 

Do you think Buffy was seriously doing "self-destruction by incarceration" or was she truly motivated by her sense of individual responsibility for Katrina?  I could believe more in her sense of justice demanded if she had not wailed on Spike in that alley or if she had given a little more thought to Dawn's need for a sister and caretaker - I guess Dawn would have been a ward of the state.   I still believe that most of Season Six was Buffy's nightmare world made flesh.

If Buffy was not the lead character and a superhero, she would most likely be in treatment or in a hospital - girl/woman had some series issues. 

That's not fair at all.  Firstly, if Buffy wasn't a lead character/superhero, she wouldn't have half the issues in her life.  Secondly, everyone has emotional issues, some more or less than others, and that doesn't mean they need to be "in treatment" or "in a hospital".  Aside from season 6, where she was depressed for a very damn good reason, the issues Buffy deals with are things everyone deals with.  Maybe she doesn't do it in the best of ways but that doesn't mean she needs "treatment" (though, I will concede to season 6 Buffy could have benefited from somebody to talk to about things). 

I'm actually quite annoyed by this statement.  There are people out there that legitimately need psychiatric help, and trust me when I say, Buffy is not one of them.  So she has issues.  We all do.  To say she has "serious issues" requiring hospitalization is ridiculous.  Sorry, no offense to you, but this kind of thing is not only a misrepresentation of what mental health care is about, but it downplays the needs of people who really do have mental health problems.

Buffy, as a character did very questionable choices, especially her emotional and psychological trauma in Season Six, how she, IMO, used Spike as a scapegoat and subliminal objectification of her deep anger and abusive behavior did show a disturb young woman.  In our real world scenario she would have benefited from psychological counseling and treatment.   I apologize for my thoughtless use of  a phrase, which for many could come across as unsympathetic or callous - believe me it was not meant as such. 

Let me assure you that I do understand how very difficult life is for millions of people who suffer from emotional and psychological illness - my own immediate family has suffered from the effects from these illnesses - and artists that I know have killed themselves from their depression and difficult lives.  In my very small circle of friends and associates there have been 4 suicides and one death from an overdose. 

Buffy, I still believe presented a very conflicted character that did so major seriously bad things that did fall into the "treatment would have help" category. 

Season 6, yes, she could have used some help with things, considering most of her "questionable choices" stemmed from her resurrection.  And seeing a counselor after the death of her mother would have been a good thing to do, as well.  

As far as the resurrection, and her actions following it, in a "real world scenario", that wouldn't have happened, so the argument is moot in that respect.  And this thread is discussing an episode from season 4, where sure, she made mistakes (Parker) but certainly did not need that kind of "help".  These are the same issues most people face during the transition from childhood to adulthood.  I do not believe that a suggestion of needing "treatment" is an appropriate consideration for Buffy at that time, thus my taking issue with the comment.

I'm sure that you did not intend for the comment to come across in the way that it did, but it did, and I felt compelled to comment.  Thank you for responding, nmcil.

Actually, while Buffy has normal mental health issues - depression re mother's death, normal problems growing up etc. - she also has some far more serious things happening - psychotic breaks (the summers where she is "gone", catatonia, inventing a sister.  These are not things that counseling alone is going to help. 

I don't want to high jack the thread topic, but since Riley and Spike are both, IMO, connected to her history with Angel/Angelus I think it is appropriate to ask.

I don't believe that  her abusive and destructive  relationship with  Spike was especially connected to her revivification - nor does it fit within what we might consider the normal circumstances of growing up.  Her encounter and problems with Parker do fall within the usual troubles and lessons of moving into adulthood.  Riley, while a  more complex relationship and, IMO, was her attempt to move away from "the bad boy thing" and to experience what thought would be "romantic relationship with a normal male" can be seen as connected to Buffy-Angel/Angelus.  Spike, however is a totally different dynamic and a very disturbing relationship beyond what we would consider "normal."

Getting back to this season and the coming Halloween - Who would  like to watch and discuss "Hush"  and "Halloween" for next week?

* Buffy is really hang up on Parker. Poor thing. From experience, I was really depressed when that guy in high school took advantage of me, but I didn't have the hopes and dreams that he'd actually wake up and see me after things got worse between us. I just knew he was a scum and that he played me and that what depressed me, the fact that I was so stupid to believe him. For some reasons, I wanted Willow to give Buffy a good slap on the face. Wake up, Buff! He's a poophead, get over it!

* Didn't you notice that Xander's voice changed 100% when he yelled "Nothing can defeat the penis!"? It didn't sound like Nicholas Brendon, but still very amusing and funny. It's by far my favorite Xander quote.

*Poor Xander. Looked down on by stupid college snobs.

*Beer Bad is a great example of how lucky Buffy is to have Xander and Willow as friends. Xander who was just humiliated by a college guy and his boss, completely ignored his problems and focused all his attention on Buffy's depression. Willow went right to Parker, trying to get him to feel guilty for hurting Buffy's feelings, and of course, love her for humiliating him in the end.

*I saw passion in the way Oz and Veruca stared at each other. Lots of heat. With Willow, he's always so sweet and nice, but there's no heat and passion.

*Giles criticizing Xander again. lol. Seems that Xander always gets a lecture for being irresponsible while Buffy and Willow usually get away with it because they're Giles' favorites. The only time Giles didn't lecture Xander was OMWF, which is probably because there was no time for that. I'd like to believe there was some yelling from Giles and some guilt from Xander after the curtains were closed.

*Willow's opinion of men is raised here. All men suck. Foreshadow to her lesbianism.

*Buffy's attraction to Xander's smell. Cute. Funny how Xander didn't seem interested at all. I still believe he's over the thought of him and Buffy together since early S3. (It's also interesting with Buffy now starting to have feelings for Xander, who's obviously moved on.)

*Beer makes people act like brainless, lunatic cavemen. Which is true. Drunks tend to act stupid or aggressive. Or both. I don't like to drink because I love to stay sane, and since I act stupid and crazy without the beer, then what's the point of drinking it? Just because I can? Just because it makes me look cool? Or just to forget my problems? I hate escaping from problems, like to deal with them instead. Plus I hate the taste of beer. Awful. Heh, guess I learned the lesson, Joss must be proud.  

*Buffy looks so pretty in this episode.

*Xander with a moustache looks so stupid.

*Parker looks so much like Xander.

*Riley is such a sweet gentleman. I don't care what people say. I love this man.

 I just wanted to say for the record (once again) that Parker looks like the cracked out, broke down, bootleg version of Xander.  And it was like a "Why not just date Xander?" moment for me, cause he looks TONS better, and he knows all  your secrets already and....just an overall better deal, if that's the look she was going to go for.

Xander is hotter than Parker. I agree with that. Also funnier and more real. If Parker told me that sappy story I'd have lost interest. I wanna be with a fun guy, someone who makes me laugh, not a sad brood.

Scarlet - you're so so right. 

I don't believe that  her abusive and destructive  relationship with  Spike was especially connected to her revivification  - Really, her romantic relationship with Spike starts with School Hard when they throw down their weapons for their big fight. 

I should clarify - what I  meant was her extreme anger and hatred of their season six relationship,  which I think is heavily influenced by her relationship with Angel/Angelus.   Season Six and their relationship has an extreme violence and anger, a particular quality of emotional trauma that is different from their seasons.  While Buffy does state that she uses him to feel and make contact with this world - all that violence and abusive behavior seems to me a reflection of a her early relationship with Angel/Angelus and Riley more than resentment and depression from being forced out of the dimension she went to after her death.  

What makes Buffy so filled with hatred and anger for Spike after she initiates the physical and sexual contact?  If it is about being forced out of what she thinks is Heaven, why put that primarily on Spike - it was her other friends that make that happen.   They always fought and there was always a element of sexual tension, but it never seemed to have that deep rooted level of personal hatred that turned into abusive behavior that she shows in season six.   There is never any question that Buffy has a great dislike and total disdain for Spike, I just mean that to me, it becomes something different in their season six sexual relationship - and I personally think it is motivated by more than her resurrection and problems that are forced on her as the new head of household and responsibility for Dawn.

I will just add to your thoughts nmcil that there was absoutely no indication of hatred of any kind toward Spike in the last several weeks that lead up to her death.  She trusted him and fought for him against her friends (Giles and Xander).  And to blame him, when he was completely not responsible and didn't even know what her friends had planned in s6, and to put all that hatred and anger and pretty much do a total 180 and start calling him an "evil thing" again was just complete madness IMO.  Assbackwards is the term I'm looking for.  No sense whatsoever.  You're pissed at Giles and your friends, so...take it out on Spike while ignoring Dawn completely?  

No.

Sense.

Man, if that's how she treats someone she likes, I'd hate to see how she would treat someone she hated, but neither one was a saint that season.  I think everyone was a bit out of character.

Man, if that's how she treats someone she likes, I'd hate to see how she would treat someone she hated

Word.

The more I see the Season Six and the Buffy-Riley  relationship, Buffy seems like a very disturb woman - even in "Into The Woods" she channels that same level of anger and hate away from Riley and onto the vamps.  She executes the vampires in the alley - she is not slaying, IMO. put killing them in sublimated extreme anger at Riley. 

If it is about being forced out of what she thinks is Heaven, why put that primarily on Spike - it was her other friends that make that happen.   She doesn't feel that she can put anything on them or she will lose them?  Spike can take and he will.  Maybe he does represent all the built up feelings about all the bad men in her life that she can't strike out at - Hank, Giles, Angel, Riley, Parker, Xander? and all the minor males who messed with her head.

She executes the vampires in the alley - she is not slaying, IMO. put killing them in sublimated extreme anger at Riley.

I think she slayed them cause they wouldn't back off.  But she mos def executed the female who was biting Riley.  I thought that was pretty wrong...She was shaking and fled in fear, which usually gets a pass.  But alas...

She doesn't feel that she can put anything on them or she will lose them?  Spike can take and he will.

That's still not a justification.  "Gee, can't be honest with my friends, so I'll just use and abuse thing X over there."  Just not flying with me.  I would have been more okay with her just straight up running away again as opposed to what actually went down.

That's still not a justification. 

  Didn't say it was okay, just that it was her thinking - or lack of it.  I guess part of her growing up was learning who you can tell what and who you can really really trust.  (In her case Spike is it.)  Not to defend Buffy, but she's not exactly feeling the love from the Gang.  Giles - leaves.  Xander - busy with girlfriend and wants to show Buffy movies (which he doesn't even do).  Willow - doing the Drug Thang and wants Buffy to help her instead of the other way around.  Dawn - causes as much trouble as possible.  I don't see anybody taking care of Buffy, even though she's plainly acting weird, disappearing for hours at a time, even all night, stuck in a crappy job and going bankrupt.  

Not to defend Buffy, but she's not exactly feeling the love from the Gang.

Not disagreeing, but it still makes no sense to treat the one person who does show you love like shit. 

I can't nor will I ever be able to wrap my brain around that, or have it explained to me in such a way that it would make logical sense.

I've always thought that Buffy was projecting in a major way when she's whaling on Spike, I think that she was really talking about herself...

 

"Buffy: I'm not your girl!

(WHAM! A devastating blow sends him crashing back. She's on top of him before he can get up. She pounds on him mercilessly.)

BUFFY (cont'd): You don't have a soul! There's nothing good or clean in you. That's why you can't understand! You're dead inside! You can't feel anything real! I could never... be your girl!"


She could definitely be talking about herself.  I don't think she feels like she as a soul.  I don't think she feels human.  I don't think she understands anyone anymore.  I don't think she understands the world or how to be in the world anymore.  I think she feels dead inside.  I think she can't feel anything real, that she feels disassociated.  I don't think she feels like there is enough of her there to be anything to anyone.  I think she feels like she has nothing left to give. I think she doesn't feel like she belongs anywhere or with anyone because her old patterns of living will no longer work.  (And I really hate that the writer's never addressed her messed up self in any way that had sense.)

In short, I think she was really talking about herself and beating up on herself by proxy.  He's the one who understands her, who feels most like her intimate insides.  And she hates herself and her overall situation so she snaps, acts out, and beats "herself" up. 

And even if you disagree... I think this POV would make a great fanfic.  ^_^

(Note: Thanks go to Buffy World for the quotage.)

Yeah, I always believed she was really referring to herself, especially in that scene.  It always reminded me of when Buffy and Faith switched bodies, the same thing during "Who Are You?" when Faith was whaling on Buffy before they switched back, the things she said I believe was how she really felt about herself, but that was pretty obvious.  In fact, a lot of what she said was very similar to what Buffy said in the alley.

I agree. She was definitely talking to/about herself and taking it out on the body in front of her.  I would have thought that was fairly obvious, especially since it was theme Joss had already used with Faith (although more blatantly, I'll grant you).  One could also posit that Spike was very aware of her emotions at the time and that's why he forgave her so willingly. As he seemed to have done by the following week's birthday party.  He knew she wasn't really talking to him much of the time.

I don't think anyone has disputed that Buffy was talking about herself in that alley.  I think the bottom line is...some, like me, don't care.  Yes, that scene was similar to when Faith was beating her body in that church in season four, and it is a mirror to the conversation Buffy and Faith had in season three after the Deputy Mayor was accidentally killed, and Faith in fact says to Buffy, "That's my girl," as does Spike.  But the thing of it is, Buffy exhibited self control there--she hit Faith once.  And had that been Riley or hey Angel in that alley and not Spike, there's no way that their face would have looked like that.  She beat on Spike because she could, and because she just didn't care.  She left him there in that alley when he could hardly move, and then whines to Tara, "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?"  Maybe she had a memory lapse as to what just recently happened between her and Spike.  She had no remorse for what she did--absoultely none.

She was pretty much a self made martyr there.

I don't believe she had no remorse for what she did.  You can tell by the look on her face after she realized what just happened.  Yes, she did leave him there, but that wasn't the expression of someone with no remorse.

 Tammy, she looked stunned for all of two seconds before turning her back on him, and there is never any indication she went back to him after her visit to the police station, and she certainly didn't apologize.  When Spike says to her at her party, "What are you going to do?  Beat me up again?" she doesn't look ashamed or remorseful.  She looks annoyed.

She left him there in that alley when he could hardly move, and then whines to Tara, "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?"

Technically, speaking we don't actually know that she left him in the alley.  We know she left him and went into the police station.  We don't know what she did when she left the police station. She never intended to come out.  Beyond feeling like she had to be punished, which we've sort of agreed she did by proxy, I'm not sure she had any thoughts beyond something along the lines of "Just somebody please make this pain stop." She could have helped him back up and to his crypt.  They could have talked.She could have apologized.  Or not.  The bottom line is: we don't know.  I don't think that it is fair to assume the absolute worst.  Based on how okay they were at her birthday party, I've always assumed that they cleared the air.  And she apologized.  I think my interpretation is just as legitimate, given what little we get to see on screen.

As far as her looking annoyed... I don't know about you, but when I've done something awful in my relationship and we've talked and I've apologized and I can't ever undo it or say anything besides "sorry" repeatedly,  and supposedly my fellow relatee(?) says they're fine with it now and then at a later date brings it up and throws it in my face... I'm mightily annoyed too.  Not that I know that's what happened between them, but it's no more or less accurate than assuming anything else.

Her conversation with Tara was entirely legitimate.  Some of the things that she was doing with Spike that she'd never done before her death and resurrection were bothering her.  We don't even know what they all were.  It was never specified or spelled out in a conversation that we saw between Tara and Buffy or Buffy and anyone else.  Since they were Spike specific things though... Why wouldn't she say those words?  Sometimes one just stumbles into uncomfortable, uncharted territory.  I think the key word she uses is "let."  She is taking responsibility for anything that they are doing that her inner critic has problems with.  She isn't blaming him.  "Let" implies that she recognizes that she has the ability to say "no."  She just doesn't, and she doesn't know why.

I also think there is no comparing Buffy in Season 3 to Buffy in Season 6.  I thought they handled Buffy's return from Heaven abysmally.  If you've ever known someone with PTSD... It's just... huge.  And unbearably painful.  It jerks with your equilibrium and emotions.  Buffy never had any help --competent help anyways.  Spike did do the best he could and he got caught in the cross fire --but he did choose to stay.  Unlike her friends... the bastards.  (There are some units in the army who are dealing with divorce rates of 47% right now.  that shit is hard to deal with.)   Buffy has all my sympathy, as does Spike.  They are both the victims of her well meaning friends who brought her back and then ignored the needs of a returning warrior from the battlefield.  Buffy's brain was not in the best place for making life decisions.

I personally put the real blame though on the thoughtless writers (and Joss and Marti) who were so confused by what they had set up, that they needlessly tortured everyone without actually dealing with any of the very real issues that they created!

I know therapy and anti-depressants don't make for good BtVS t.v., but come on!

(Sorry about the long windy... but I had lots of thoughts. ^_^)

What BreathesStory said.  Yes.

Based on how okay they were at her birthday party, I've always assumed that they cleared the air.  And she apologized.

Spike pretty much allowed himself to be her doormat.  He would have forgiven her even if she hadn't asked.  In addition to that, she said to Tara before the party started that she "wasn't ready" to see Spike, which gives me the impression that no, she did not clear the air.  That, and pretty much everything that went between them at that point in time, she laid at his doorstep.  It's hard for Buffy to apologize at all, let alone repeatedly.  So yeah--disagree big time there, and given the character's actions, and not mine or yours, that's the conclusion that I draw.

She is taking responsibility for anything that they are doing that her inner critic has problems with.  She isn't blaming him.  "Let" implies that she recognizes that she has the ability to say "no."

That's all good and well, but for that to be her main problem when she is sobbing to Tara after what recently transpired in that alleyway...  She's more or less saying "why do I let him $&#@ me," when the reality is, she kicked that off herself.  So she does realize she has some kind of problem, only she does a big fat nothing to rectify it (until Riley shows up.  Joy.).  And their (Buffy and Tara) whole exchange is about the sex with the thing she hates and represents everything she's supposed to be against somehow (which would be valid if this was season two, three, four or a part of five, but it's not, so that statement is ludicrous).  So the bottom line there really was how could she let this bad, evil thing touch her, and goodness, what would her friends say?  And to that, I give a gigantic eye roll.

I wasn't comparing Buffy s3 to Buffy s6 per se, so much as the set up.  In fact, put that all aside.  Do think if that had been Angel in that alleyway, trying to stop Buffy from turning herself in, that the scene would have played out the same?  I also would not feel comfortable comparing life in Sunnydale to Hell as Buffy did or as a battlefield of some kind.  Was it stressful?  Sure.  But life generally is.  To quote Charlie Baltimore--"Life is pain; you just get used to it."  And Buffy had become very acclimated to the life of a slayer.  She treated her patrols in a very nonchalant sort of manner--not as if she feared for her life everytime she went out.  Even after the mishap in FFL--she got back on the slaying horse, and the general slaying was pretty much a cake walk (the whole Glory ordeal was separate--not going to put a Hellgod trying to kill your sister on the level of a run of the mill vampire, or even the average demon).  IMO, Buffy essentially took a long vacation that summer.  Coming back (excluding the climging out of her grave part) to life was...She really had nothing to fear.  She knew where she would be going should she die again, and being human, she's going to at some point, some way, but she got an extended stay with her friends and family.  She said she was warm and loved.  Well, when you're formless, not sure how warmth (or coldness) would matter, and being loved by a bunch of formless strangers for eternity...doesn't sound too great.  If she'd said she was happy with her mom or something--coolness.  But all that formless vagueness...  *shrug*

But yes, I will agree with blaming the writers for not thinking it out too much, or not giving the last season a rewatch. Not even a quick gander, it seemed...

I so agree with the assessment of all of you above--the writers really let the characters and the fans down in season 6.  (I once read an article where it said if the sexes had been reversed and it was a man beating up a woman in that alley that he never could have been redeemed as a hero  again, and I agree.  How Joss let Buffy get away with it whether he pitched the storyline or just okayed it from another writer's idea, is beyond me.)  Sometimes I like to just pretend that most of season 6 never occured at all!

Beer Bad Buffy (BBB--tee hee!) was at least someone we could identify with in that she had just started college and was finding it hard to adjust at the beginning.  Normal problems handled in a normal way (except for magic beer, of course!)

And continuing on with the thread topic...Does anyone have the backstory for this question?  I heard that because so many teens watched BtVS, the powers that be put a lot of pressure on Joss to do an episode that would preach to teens against alcohol and that is why he created this beer storyline.  Has anyone else heard that?

To me "Beer Bad" was primarily the next episode based on Walsh's lecture and the continuation of the theme of primal needs and desires that come up with the Oz -Veruca arc and the theme of the season; how all the characters will deal with and be effected by the personal needs, wants, and "must have" in their lives.   While the theme of drinking is part of the episode, IMO, it is primarily about escape from personal problems   Buffy trying to forget about Parker, Willow trying to escape from the pain of Oz, Oz having  to deal with the consequences of his werewolf demon, physically and metaphorically, Giles with his sense of irrelevancy, Xander's insecurities and personal self-esteem.  Spike, like Oz,  has to learn how to live with the fundamental change to his life style:  food and sexual desire totally primal needs.

TARA: Of course, sweetie. (pulls back) So, how're you doing?
BUFFY: Oh, you know. Better. Mostly. (Tara looking sympathetic) Sometimes.
TARA: So, is, um... (looks around) Spike coming?
BUFFY: No. He may be a chip-head, but ... he still doesn't play too well with others.

Tara smiles, turns to put down the gift and hang up her coat.

BUFFY: Besides, I'm definitely not ready to, to...
TARA: (turns back) Come out.
BUFFY: (smiles) Yeah. I'm all ... stay-inny.

I too got the impression they had sorted things out somewhat post beating.

logically how Buffy and Spike acted toward each other during the birthday party does suggest an off camera encounter - It is inconceivable that they could have met again for the first time after the brutal violence from DTngs.

No. He may be a chip-head, but ... he still doesn't play too well with others.

I'm not sure how that would imply that they "sorted things out," since that would basically mean that yeah, they talked, and she said "hey, I'm having a party--don't show up to my house on this night" or something (not to mention that the only one he didn't play well with at that point was her...).  But that's ruled out since when Spike enters, one of the first things he said is that "Willow mentioned the shindig," and not Buffy, who stands there all the while looking shocked as hell to see him.  The only reason they were able to act okay around one another at the party (though Buffy not initially--still in shock mode) is because Spike didn't make a big deal out of it.  He allowed it to be swept under the carpet except for that one throwaway line the next day.  So, if he was going to ignore it and pretend as if nothing happened, Buffy was happily able to live in that denial. Though how she managed to look at his face without least wincing, well...

There's one thing I've always wondered about the convo between Tara and Buffy listed above. Buffy goes on about not being ready, and then Tara says to come out. Buffy doesn't respond with a that's never gonna happen. So that line, to me always made it sound like Buffy was gonna 'come out' eventually. Not ready implies that eventually you will be ready. I also always figured that because at the party, Buffy and Spike hung out (they were playing cards or something). They were acting all friendly and kinda flirty.
Am I the only one who thought that when they heard the line?

I agree.  I definitely had hopes -- seeing as Buffy was all smiling and stay-inny!

Here's the quote
TARA: So, is, um... (looks around) Spike coming?
BUFFY: No. He may be a chip-head, but ... he still doesn't play too well with others. Tara smiles, turns to put down the gift and hang up her coat.
BUFFY: Besides, I'm definitely not ready to, to...
TARA: (turns back) Come out.
BUFFY: (smiles) Yeah. I'm all ... stay-inny.

I definitely thought Buffy turned a corner here and was thinking of spike more positively (besides the sex).  Then they were flirting and playing cards together.  Then A**hole Riley showed up.  Big Jerk.

Um...

When did all this flirting take place in O&FA?  Spike was flirting, yes, when he wasn't being jealous...don't recall Buffy actually reciprocating.  Who knows--maybe I'm having a memory hiccup.

I never thought it was flirting per say, but the way Buffy says 'maybe he's not the jeleous one' (or something like that- I haven't seen the episoide in a very long time) was kinda flirty the way she said it. Even if that's just my overactive imagination at that, but they did hang out in public all civilized like (and go figure, no Scooby heads exploded, like Buffy seemed to fear lol). Either way, they were getting along in a not having sex way in this episode, which was nice...
I wonder if that would have continued had Riley not come back...

Ah.  Then they (well she) wasn't flirting.  Getting along doesn't mean the same thing.

And Riley just sped up the inevitable--if the ex who cheated on her, lied to her and left her at the drop of a hat while her mom was seriously ill was all it took to break up their non relationship, then I'm sure something just as equally stupid would have happened sooner or later to do the same thing.   It's just unfortunate that she couldn't have called things off for the right reasons.  Riley says it's bad--he's bad--so it must be so. Pfft.  No matter what she says to Spike in the rubble of his home, Riley was the catalyst. She could have had her epiphany in DT when it made sense.  But she didn't.

What are your thoughts on why Riley was brought back?  Was it primarily as a plot device to initiate Buffy's final melt-down and give emphasis to "Spike, as the destructive force in her life."  Or was the theme of Buffy's emotional and psychological trauma being given equal consideration. 

Riley as catalyst, but for what purpose - exploring her inner demons or primarily as a way to give emphasis Buffy as making very bad life choices and  a "clean" exit strategy for the series hero character?

What are your thoughts on why Riley was brought back?

The writers made a piss poor attempt at making a comparison between Spike and Riley--"Captain America" or James Bond, as they tried to have him look, vs...
Dr. Evil McNaughty Pants. 

I can get you money.  You're better than this.  Come on--walk with me.
No!

vs.

I need the best. I need you, Buffy. Can you help me?
(Buffy follows him quickly, asking no questions whatsoever.  Insert pat on the head from Riley here)

The scene when Riley barges into Spike's place, Buffy hurries and puts on her clothes with a ton of "oh gods," as opposed to just telling Riley to leave or ask him about knocking or something.  No "what are you doing here?" no indignance...and takes everything--everything that he says at face value.  Even though everything he does is suspicious.  Haven't seen her or her friends in a year, yet you mysteriously know where she works?  How did he know Spike was still in town, let alone in that crypt?  So many questions and no answers.  But Spike, who's currently "evil and manipulative" is of course the liar in this scenario, even though between the two, the last one to lie to Buffy was Riley and not Spike, and Spike's only agenda is to help Buffy and stay on her good side while Riley's is to stop a big demon who has so far hurt and killed a big fat 0 of the Sunnydale denizens.  

Buffy should have been smarter than that.

Riley was used as a piss poor of a reason for her to dump Spike, and in some convoluted way that makes no real sense (to me) explaining why Spike is so horrendously bad.  It was more like horrendous writing, cause that was complete OoC behavior on Buffy's part.  Completely.

"Spike, as the destructive force in her life."

That's funny, since she literally destroys his home, and leaves him in a burnt out shell (metaphor--score!).

Hope that answered...something

Scarlet Ibis -

Thanks for your reply - I just don't get why they threw Buffy back into "pathetic Buffy" role that she played with Parker - especially with Riley, who was, IMO, always her escape to Mr. Normal scheme.  Accept as a "mirror world" metaphor/dreamscape reflection of how she sees herself with Spike, I can't make any sense of this episode.  No matter how much I totally hate how she engages with Spike through all this season, I just hated to see Buffy so completely go into automatic "desperate for her man" mode. 

Pretty hard not to get those easy puns and metaphors when talking about Buffy and Spike - and especially this episode; the destructo/bomb symbolism can't be ignored - Buffy's  self-destructo, destructo of Spike's home, destroys Spike's heart and then claims it is all "killing her."  - Rabbit Hole Syndrome for sure.

It has been interesting watching  those earlier seasons - and I say this not as a Spuffy fan, how Bangel ended up with so many viewers buying into the Buffy-Angel Forever is very difficult for me to understand - every episode I have watched these last few days with Buffy and Angel and their love story is filled with foreshadows of how they are not going to stay together, and for Buffy, how her love causes her to make some serious bad calls.    If Kendra had not gone against what Buffy insisted on doing with the Angel rescue - both Buffy and Angel would be dead.  For all that speech about passion and power that Buffy gives Kendra, it was the controlled, calm, and considered action by Kendra that brought them victory. 

Boy, did I totally dislike Buffy in her "bratty self-centered - nobody messes with my boyfriend" treatment in the "What's My Line" episodes - were the writers trying to make her so insufferable or maybe it's just an "age" thing from an older viewer.

Boy, did I totally dislike Buffy in her "bratty self-centered - nobody messes with my boyfriend" treatment in the "What's My Line" episodes - were the writers trying to make her so insufferable or maybe it's just an "age" thing from an older viewer.

Nah, I agree.  It was a "Wth?" moment for me when I first saw it at age...twelve I think.  That and the "He's my lover" comment.  Yikes.

Season 6 as a whole is just meta waiting to happen.

I always picture the characters between the episodes, being pissed at the gods and griping to each other about how they are always getting jerked around without any overarching or continuity based sense.

Boy, did I totally dislike Buffy in her "bratty self-centered - nobody messes with my boyfriend" treatment in the "What's My Line" episodes  - Bet you would have loved it if she did that for Spike.    Buffy did that for Owen, too.  You killed my date!

Can you help me?  I don't know why, but this becomes a key phrase for Buffy.  No matter what you do or how pissed you make her, say these magic words and she's on your side.  Worked for Riley per above, worked for drugged up Willow and even worked for Spike after he killed a whole bunch of people.  That's no so interesting in itself because she's a hero and all, but until you ask her, she doesn't give a crap about you or your problems.

Frankly in AYW, I don't think Riley even had to ask at that point.  He could have said, "Come.  Now," and she probably would have.

"My hat has a cow."

Wow.  Really?  That is not the reaction she should have had...just saying.

but until you ask her, she doesn't give a crap about you or your problems.

I wonder if that would have worked for Faith if she had asked that question in "Sanctuary."

My hat has a cow - having worked at a similar establishment in my youth, I found this sentence astonishingly life like.

Faith - I think so.  Buffy tries to help her several times.  Faith of course doesn't want to be helped.  There would have to be some major groveling.