BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Season 8 Comics, anyone?

Nov 11 2009 05:35 am   #1lovesbitch91
If anyone keeps up with these, I'd like to know:
Has Joss mentioned anything beyond his general vagueness about Spike in BtVS8, or a possible crossover? Google sucks when trying to get info like this.

Nov 11 2009 06:19 am   #2nmcil
that Slayalive site - think that is the right name is a good source for keeping up with the comics - the lastest issues from Brian Lynch that features a Comic Con and Spike and some of the conventions visitors all being effected by The Janus Mask, was an excellent Spike centrix arc. 

Here is the link:  http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 11 2009 07:05 pm   #3Sensei
Someone said that Joss had sold the Angel characters (and that includes Spike because he was in AtS series 5) franchise to a different comic company, so that means there cannot be crossover stories now.  I don't follow the comics because they seem so unrealistic to the show canon to me, so I don't know if this is true or not.

Nov 11 2009 10:09 pm   #4Niori 
I read an interview way back before the comics were being made (just before they came out I believe) that said there would be some cross over between the characters, but it wouldn't be large. The two companies were sorting things like that out. Both Angel and Spike have appeared (brief, barely mentionable cameo) in season 8 in Buffy's dream sequences- one when she's apparently having a threesome with the two of them, and then an online comic where they're both their but ingore her and get it on with each other (which makes me giggle). Also, Angel and Cordelia appeared in one, which was like a flashback (I don't know for sure- I don't read the comics, only the summeries on Wikipedia) to season one. So there have been some mini crossovers, and at one point Joss did say Spike would have an appearence- it might just be him in the dream, or something bigger. No one knows.
And I don't follow the comics either- season eight, from what I read, is very stupid. And just getting worse. So many things are ridiclious and so uncanon that it makes me cringe. I read the first two and then was like 'not happening'. I do like the Angel comics though. They go pretty good with the show.
One thing I've never gotten is how niether comic knows what's happening in the other. I mean, Slayers are denounced and on the run, and yet apparently Angel and his gang never hears about it. LA gets dragged into Hell and they eventually make a movie about it, yet Buffy and her crew never hear about it. Apparently nobody watches the news in Buffyverse.
Nov 12 2009 02:15 am   #5nmcil
does anyone know if there is a site where the entire Season 8 is being summarized or Angel Season 6?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 12 2009 01:27 pm   #6sosa lola
Still reading them and still enjoying them :) Spike had appeared twice, I think, but mostly in Buffy's dreams and always with Angel. Buffy has mentioned Spike dying when she was telling Satsu why she didn't want to be with her -because those she loves either leave or die. Also, Willow had stated that the most important men in Buffy's life are vampires, which includes Spike. Andrew has mentioned that he likes Spike better than Angel as well. Also, a "spike"  was mentioned three times in #27 and both Twilight and Riley reacted with interest upon hearing the name; "Spike?"

That's it, so far. :)

nmcil, there are transcripts to the comments in Buffyforums, but they stop at #22. Wikipedia summerizes the issues as well. And for good and insightful reviews I suggest you visit stormwreath's and angearia's LJs.

Nov 13 2009 04:33 am   #7Spikez_tart
SPOILER ALERT - Joss is redeeming himself in the comics by showing Riley to be the bum we always thought.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 13 2009 05:56 am   #8nmcil
sosa lola -

thanks for the info on the comic sites -  I will certianly check out the critic sites - I have been reading the comic seasons of Buffy and Angel - plus the spin off stories from AtF.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 13 2009 06:33 pm   #9sosa lola

What season eight issue are you in now, nmcil?  

Nov 13 2009 07:12 pm   #10ladycat713 
I wanted Spike to show up at first but given that Season 8 has turned out to be a large steaming pile of character assassination, I'm against it now. Since the Angel and Buffy comics don't seem to be aware of what goes in the other it can be argued that they are set in parallel universes.

And I always knew Riley was a bum. But even showing that can't redeem Season 8, it's too far gone to be redeemable.

If I considered Season 8 to be canon, it would ruin the fandom for me. As it is I can't look at my friends page on lj for fear that the ads for it will pop up/
Nov 14 2009 01:45 am   #11nmcil
sosa lola -

I have been keeping up with the comic seasons and spin off for both Buffy and Angel -  current on both.  But I have to admit that I am not familiar with comics books or how to read this format.  An example being Riley, as far as I know Riley was spying for Buffy, but some readers have a different take on his part within the story arc - leaves me confused.  Just like the panels that show Buffy being so affectionate with Xander and Riley, considering the potential romantic feelings that readers ascribe to Buffy having for Xander, there really is nothing in the panels that actually say Buffy has romantic feelings for him, if there are, I certainly missed them.  Same for Riley, she is shown in a panel, showing what I would call affection, shedding tears for him while she holds his hand.  There is just so many missing parts, my normal reading does not have this kind of missing parts and loose style.  I am not a comic enthusiast and I admit to having problems keeping the story lines straight.  
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 14 2009 03:35 pm   #12sosa lola

I'm not a comic book reader either. The medium doesn't attract me, only reading 'cause it's BtVS and AtS. But I was able to catch these things you couldn't, like Buffy and Xander's scene under the tree, I can feel them almost kissing before Buffy ruined the moment thinking she should talk to Willow first, Buffy's jealousy regarding Xander/Dawn, her attitude towards Xander changed a little, she became intolerant of his jokes, doesn't talk to him as much as she did in the past issues, and then there was that moment where Xander was the only one she thought about after rescuing Riley "Where's Xander?" and then that affectionate hug with the close up, her hand lingering in his chin. She obviously has feelings for him.

It'll be really interesting if Xander rejected her for Dawn - same as when she rejected him in S1. Buffy falling in love with Xander after he moved on. I really wish they'd go this way.

I guess looking at characters expressions –Jeanity, while not good with likeness, is really good at capturing emotions- helps you imagine their tone of voice and their feelings. Perhaps you should read the issues slower or do a reread, I've met some S8 fans who stated they read the issue twice to get a good sense of what's going on.

At Buffyforums, some fans are doing a reread of S8, catching a lot of interesting details, you might wanna check it out. :)
 

Nov 14 2009 04:10 pm   #13slaymesoftly
I'm following the comics, primarily so as to know what's going on in what is supposed to be Season Eight. I don't feel any more required to use them in my fics set in the future than I do to follow canon when writing early season Buffy and going AU from a starting point. However, they do provide that starting point for fics set after Chosen and/or NFA, so I think it's important to know what's going on there.  I don't care for the format, or the art, but I want to know where the storyline is going so that it can help me when reading other author's future fics, and when writing my own. As most of us do when writing early season Spuffy, we're free to veer off from the storyline at any point and make it go where we want it to. :)

BTW - I think the Angel and Spike comics are much easier to follow and done better. I'm actually enjoying most of them. In an I'd-never-be-spending-money-on-this-if-it-wasn't-about-Spike kind of way. *g*
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 14 2009 07:16 pm   #14nmcil
My problem is that I don't especially trust the visuals - Example, Buffy and Xander in the classic comic book romance visual in that close up right after she hugs him - but why could she simply not be happy to see that he is not injured since she now knows that her sister and Xander are a couple?  Plus, how big of a skank would Buffy have to have become to go after Xander now that she knows her sister is in love with him and that they are together in a romantic relationship - isn't that very OOC for Buffy.  Being with Satsu is one thing, going after Xander under these circumstances is quite another.  So, I don't trust that the writers would put Buffy in this situation - it would be like a dopy daytime soap opera.   Still, there is that panel, as you point out where she keeps touching him - so who knows.  Take the panel that shows Buffy crying over Riley and holding his hand, again in what I would call classic comic romance - both panels depict Buffy showing big affection for two different men in her past, but what does it all really mean? 
That the Buffy has feelings for Xander and now this connection with Riley feels more like to me is Buffy reaching out to the familiar, trying to get some emotional stability and connection to life as all her life and duty, and responsibilities as The Slayer General are falling into chaos.   Falling in love with Xander after all these years and all the years of their struggles together, I personally hate the concept.  They start very early with the innuendos about Buffy and Xander while also showing Buffy in an erotic dream with Spike and Angel but the scene in shown in the context of a train wreck - does that all tie in with these feelings for Xander? 

Xander and Dawn have been shown together from very early as well - they have been shown as very good friends and connecting emotionally and intellectually for a long time now - and Xander and Dawn, IMO, could be a wonderful romantic pairing.  Maybe I am trying to read too much into the visuals that are not in the primary story telling panels.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 15 2009 02:18 pm   #15sosa lola
 but why could she simply not be happy to see that he is not injured since she now knows that her sister and Xander are a couple?

But why doesn't she ask about Dawn? About Giles? Xander was the first one that crossed her mind for a reason. It's exactly like in S7 Lies My Parents Told Me, when Buffy checked on Spike and waved off his suggestion to check on Dawn, Spike is the one she cares about the most at that moment, he's the one she's in love with. Same as when she went to check on Spike before a bleeding Xander.

I do think her interest in Xander is for the wrong reasons, she started to connect with humanity, and wanted to connect with Xander's. I'm very excited to see where they're going with this.

Falling in love with Xander after all these years and all the years of their struggles together, I personally hate the concept.

I find Buffy and Xander's relationship to be the most special one among all relationships simply because it's not sexual or romantic, they stuck together all these years as friends and that's so facinating. If they become a couple it'll ruin it for me, but the idea of Xander rejecting Buffy will be awesome, and a full circle with the whole Xander/Buffy thing.
Nov 15 2009 07:47 pm   #16ladycat713 
If Buffy is interested in Xander it could be a case of her wanting what she could no longer have.
Nov 15 2009 08:56 pm   #17nmcil
The one thing that is constant in the Comic Season is Buffy feeling like she needs and wants to connect with another person on an intimate level - maybe Buffy thinks that the only way she can get really connect with another person now is on a physical intimate level. 

I can't see Buffy going after Xander if she thinks Dawn and Xander are trying to find love with each other.  Why would should do that?  I see Buffy as being very confused about her relationships at this juncture - I could see that she might want to impose herself between them if she were going with the whole "trial of the depth of love," but what in her background would lead to this kind of act?  When has Buffy, outside of  Season 7 or her actions in the ending of the Acathla Cycle,  shown emotional and intellectual maturity on such a high degree?   

Outside from anything else, why have this Buffy-Feelings-Xander, which would be a major character story arc, so close to the conclusion of the entire comic season - the only way that I think it would be connected is if it ties into the start of the season, or if it becomes a big character development and growth for Buffy. 

I hate all this waiting between issues - now with Buffy having new powers and being able to fly, I want my Buffy every week, not every month.  

What is your speculation on what would happen if only Buffy gets supernatural powers back?  or only Buffy and Willow.  I personally would be one big pissed of Slayer after all my powers were lost from her executive decision.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 15 2009 09:06 pm   #18nmcil
Here is the wiki Season 8 link for anyone who wants to do catch-up and join the conversation -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_Season_Eight



Excerpt from the notes section with Scott Allie - it is a very informative interview and worth reading

“One day last year I got an email from him with an attachment,” Allie said. “I thought it was his treatment of his new Serenity comic. I opened it and was shocked to see a complete script for Buffy #1.”

Whedon had become a much sought after comic book writer after leaving the Buffy television series and taking over the venerable X-Men franchise among other projects. He was also supposed to write and direct the 2009 Wonder Woman movie, but that did not pan out.

“I was walking around the office telling everyone we had Joss Whedon writing Buffy again,” Allie said. “It was a great day.”

They got together to discuss the book and decided to make 22 comics in the series, just
like a television show.

“But that number keeps growing as Joss keeps coming up with new stories to tell,” Allie said. “We’re up to about 50, could go a little higher. It’s a very deep story that will go places. People are going to love it.”

Allie said the comic series will initially be called “Season Eight” but there is a subtitle that will be added after issue #6.

“We can’t reveal the subtitle now, it will give too much away,” he said.

Allie said he hopes that Joss will write about half of the Buffy series, with other writers like Brian K. Vaughan filling in arcs.

Joss has written the first five issues of the series and will write issue #10, then issues #16 to #20. Issues #6 through #9 will be written by Vaughan. Drew Goddard, a writer for the show, will write issues #11 through #14. Issue #15 will be a stand-alone story written by an author to be announced.

Allie said even if Whedon does not write the entire series, his influence will be there.

“He writes these manifestos every three months, telling everyone what’s going on, where the series is heading,” he said. “It keeps the writers on track.”

Allie explained the process.

“The writers have a certain amount of freedom,” he said. “The writers pitch stories back to Joss, he makes suggestions and they go back and forth with revisions until the story is written.”

Allie said they still must get script and art approval from Fox before a comic is produced, but usually Joss’ approval assures smooth sailing.

“There’s room in the series for change, the whole 50 issues are not mapped out,” Allie said. “Joss will write something in one panel that will suggest a new direction and we‘re able to go with it. That will keep the story fresh.

“He has a planned ending, and certain beats he needs to hit along the series, but it will be flexible,” he continued. “The series has lots of wiggle room. Still, there is a threat that will build throughout the series that will come to a climax at the end.”


Timeline of Season 8:

Intended to be set after BtVS's seventh season. The story takes place "at least a year and a half" after the events of "Chosen",[8] placing it at its earliest in the latter half of 2004 and after the events of "Not Fade Away." However, given that Dawn's sophomore year at Sunnydale High was during Season 7 and the she is now described as currently being (or having recently been) a college freshman, it seems likely the events take place about two or three years after the end of the series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 16 2009 01:16 pm   #19sosa lola
If Buffy is interested in Xander it could be a case of her wanting what she could no longer have.

I think it's probably about her wanting to connect with humanity and Xander representing humanity.

The one thing that is constant in the Comic Season is Buffy feeling like she needs and wants to connect with another person on an intimate level
 
There's also "I'm the law". Buffy being currupted by the power she has, she thinks she's above the law, stealing money for equipments to save the world. The seeds were there from S7 and developed more in S8.

Also Buffy admitting she's gonna choose the world over Dawn to Giles, implying that she's choosing the big picture, which is also shown in S8 Time of Your Life, she let the vampires feed on a few humans in order to follow them to the big bad.


I can't see Buffy going after Xander if she thinks Dawn and Xander are trying to find love with each other.

But she realized she has feelings for Xander before she knew about Xander/Dawn. She can't just undo those feelings because Xander chose Dawn, however, she chose to step aside and gaze sorrowfully at them. So far she did nothing to break Xander and Dawn up, and that hug was Buffy acting on impulse, which is human and very Buffy. 

Outside from anything else, why have this Buffy-Feelings-Xander, which would be a major character story arc, so close to the conclusion of the entire comic season -

The hints were there from the beginning. Buffy having a dream about having sex with Xander, knowing it was wrong because "she's the dark" and "she wasn't gentle this time", Buffy and Xander's closeness, the subtext-y scene in the training room...

Buffy only acted on those feelings when she became a mere human, she's not the dark anymore, she's not stronger than Xander, right now she can be happy and normal with him. (To be honest, I don't think this is healthy, but I guess that's what Buffy is thinking) 

Here's Emmie's review on #28 which is when Buffy realizes she has feelings for Xander:


http://angearia.livejournal.com/57558.html#cutid1

What is your speculation on what would happen if only Buffy gets supernatural powers back?  or only Buffy and Willow.  I personally would be one big pissed of Slayer after all my powers were lost from her executive decision.

Buffy's powers now are very similar to Twilight's, so if Twilight is a future character (Future Xander for example), those powers may transfor to him in the present and he'll use them to change the world by going to the past.
Nov 18 2009 07:32 pm   #20nmcil

I've read several times now that Twiglight could very well be future Xander - why do you think so?

My current speculation is that Twiglight is second in command and that he is in the service of a would be emperor or empress - some Grand Puppet Master working from their own conception of "what is best" or "what is demanded" -

Every reason makes sense or is used to justify any action depending on personal perspective -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 19 2009 04:38 am   #21nmcil
Now that we are in the last phase of the comic season 8, even if you have not followed the comics and knowing some of the tid bits that came out about Buffy potential romantic feelings for Xander, some of her choices like the whole Satsu affair - AND based on the last TV season - what do you think that Buffy needs to continue to grow both as a person and as the leader of the Slayer Army?   

Where would you like to see Joss Whedon and all the writers take their heroine role model?  What does Buffy need to continue to make her story compelling and reflect not just her current Buffyverse, but reflect back onto the real world of her readers?  Does the real world dynamics need to continue to relate with The Buffyverse or has the series now gone into a different level and genre? 

I do have a great deal of trust and admiration and respect for the work of Joss Whedon, I trust that he will pull all threads together - The Oz and Eastern philosophy very much, from my interpretation of the series, does connect both with the series and the comic season.  Joss Whedon thinks in long arcs and very much in the big picture mode, I am so excited to see where he is taking all these. 

What made the series so interesting for me was that even though we watched a horror/fantasy world in Sunnydale, it still spoke to everything that was happening to the viewers in their own social relationships; it connected in very real ways to the viewers.  

If the Buffyverse really does go into more of a superhero comic genre, would it still interest you?  I would probably still buy them, just because I am such a devoted fan, but I  think they would lose much of their interest and power to make an individual connection.  Not really have read much comic in my youth and not having read the genre in the current graphic novel transformations, I am not at all familiar with this style of literature.  I do know that there are some outstanding and splendid work being created today. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 19 2009 07:59 am   #22Niori 
Honestly, it's the whole going into that superhero comic genre that makes me really not like the comics. I have nothing against the mediem and I adore super heroes, but I don't want to mix that with Buffy. I like because she had super powers, but she wasn't the whole comic book hero. She ways always more real to me, but the longer the season goes on, the more connection I lose to the show. So now she's super girl with all the cool powers like flying...that's disappointing to me somehow. The best part of Buffy was that she wasn't super girl, in my opinion. There's a lot of other things I dislike about the comics, but this is what is turning me off the story all together (though, the whole let's get rid of our powers and leave ourselves even more defencless as we fight with real weapons plan in a real life war is what really started the downhill spiral for me).
Nov 19 2009 09:40 am   #23sosa lola
While I agree with both of you, S8 is about Buffy losing connection with humanity. Being locked in a castle with no social life, having nothing in mind but escape the wrath of the goverment, fight Twilight and train her slayers. It's the whole point of the season.

I think Buffy's feelings for Xander is the most human thing, closest to her days in Sunnydale that I've ever read in the comics so far. But, I find the direction S8 took to be the most accurate. A whole town being sucked to the ground by a bunch of super powered women/demons. The world can't possibly ignore that, and the Slayer-hate makes so much sense, seeing how some of those slayers abuse their powers, while good slayers like Buffy uses her power to save the world in an unimpressive manner (E.g: stealing). It's a story about curreption and so far I find it more impressive and true to life than pining Willow's issues on addiction in S6.
Nov 19 2009 02:43 pm   #24Scarlet Ibis
The best part of Buffy was that she wasn't super girl, in my opinion. There's a lot of other things I dislike about the comics, but this is what is turning me off the story all together (though, the whole let's get rid of our powers and leave ourselves even more defencless as we fight with real weapons plan in a real life war is what really started the downhill spiral for me).

Sounds like they Mary Sued her and added a crappy storyline on top of it.

I got bored with the Buffy comics long ago.

And didn't she already lose her connection with humanity in s6?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 20 2009 01:30 am   #25Spikez_tart
Sounds like they Mary Sued her and added a crappy storyline on top of it.

 Yes to both, but really where else has Buffy got to go?  She's all grown up - she's accepted her dark side (Spike).  There's just no conflict left in her arc - it's over. 

She did get to kill one of the Fab Four (I won't say who in case somebody wants to find out on their own) which was good.  There were some good things - her trip to the future, killing one of her best friends, the slayers that try to run away from being slayers, some of the Oz storyline and Harmony's TV show, and there were some things that sucked beyond the telling.  Like The Submarine.  Oh man that was the worst.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 20 2009 02:03 am   #26Scarlet Ibis
I don't think of Spike as her dark side, nor do I think she fully accepted him.  Even with the soul--let alone if he hadn't succeeded in getting one.  Nor do I think of Faith as Buffy's dark side--she has one all on her very own, and I don't think she accepted that either :P

When you say Fab Four, do you mean fanged four?  If not, who the crap are the Fab Four, and please, spoil me cause I won't be finding out on my own.

I think that Joss and Co should have gone in the other direction--instead of giving her more powers which is Mary Sue territory, why not strip them away as her friends all become stronger?  Perhaps not as extreme as "Helpless," but something along those lines, and make it permanent.  Could she still be a hero?  Sure, it's technically been answered, but I mean for the long haul.  Besides, giving her more powers doesn't put her heroics into question (though apparently, her morals and ethics have come into question big time, from what I've heard).  They could have explored the backlash of all the potentials who didn't want to be slayers but now are.  Okay, I'm tired and running out of steam, but there were so many various avenues they could have taken that would have made sense...and they didn't.  I don't get it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 20 2009 03:35 am   #27nmcil
Just a quick note because I have to get back to work - have an art show to have ready for tomorrow.

In the  Write Environment interview DVD Joss Whedon states that we wanted to take the comic season into the level of epic and away from what he termed "a soap opera" which is how he described his very first efforts with the comic season.   I found the interview very interesting and helped me see his perspectives on  creative process and his vision of the series and the characters. 

After watching the interview, I can see where the idea of Buffy having romantic feelings for Xander would fit with his creative process and concepts of  writing - he wants his characters to change and evolve and that sometimes "things just happen."  Although I don't see much of this random events actually playing out in the TV series - all things, even the death of Tara, IMO, connect.  Warren coming after his nemesis and having the bullet go astray  and hit Tara instead is not random.

I also don't think Spike was her dark side, I think she made him her dark side, possibly how she is potentially now making Xander her good side and the good man as Willow described him.  I go back to my personal interpretation thus far of Post Sunnydale General Buffy - she wants to feel and connect and not to continue with her feelings of isolation.
While this wanting to connect is, as far as I can see, one of the major themes, what we are shown in the panels for the very first issue is Buffy thinking about all the things that she misses.  And what she clearly has on her list of "missing," is "...great muppety Odin, I miss that sex."  All this is fine except that if we remember correctly, the person that all that great sex was with was also the one person that she did connect with, the man that gave her the strength to get back her power and self respect. 

I sure as hell don't know how this is all going to be resolved in the Comic Season, but I will be extremely interested to see how Joss Whedon deals with the Buffy-Xander  Xander-Dawn theme.  My personal take on Xander and Dawn, I have seen nothing but growth for them, in their friendship and how the both have stepped up and taken command when called to do it.  Dawn and Xander are great together and I hope they stay together. 

Nice added Spike Fan treat in that interview - Joss Whedon saying how much he loved the Spike character, how much James Marsters brought to the role and that Spike was more evolved as a vampire than Angel/Angelus.  Fact is, each character is such a wonderful creation and each has great qualities - enough to get all the viewers and fans still talking and thinking about them after all this time.  I think I like the Buffyverse and AtS even more now than the first time around.

Wish me luck - I really could use some sales -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 20 2009 04:35 am   #28Spikez_tart
Lots of luck nmcil - Everyone needs art for the holidays.

When you say Fab Four - okay, here's me thinking I was being obvious and witty.  I meant Buffy-Willow-Xander-Giles.  Duh to me.

Stripped away powers - great minds think alike.  Without revealing any stories, that's exactly where he's going, although I doubt the permanent part.  There's just something too stupid about having 2000 slayers.  Where's the angst, and the gut twisting agony.  It's just another day at the girl's dorm.  I say ick.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 20 2009 09:05 am   #29sosa lola
And didn't she already lose her connection with humanity in s6?

And she lost it again in S7. And she's losing in S8 because humanity is against her. Slayers are hated all over the world, and vampires are sympathised with.

As long as she's the general, Buffy will always feel disconnected. That's why a part of her was happy when she gave up her powers to the earth in Retreat, she's tired of "standing over people", which brings us to flying Buffy, who's forced to stand over people.

From A Beautiful Sunset:

The scene changes, and Buffy and Xander are walking along the castle rampart during the day.

XANDER: So the bad guys have a super-powered spokesmodel. Huzzah.

BUFFY: This guy’s not a figurehead. He’s got power I’ve never seen. And he’s…

From behind Xander, we see Buffy in close-up as she stops to look him in the eye, asking a difficult question.

BUFFY: *Are* we doing any good? We’ve been fighting more demons, but… but it just seems like there’s more demons to *fight*, and, what, is that because of us?

In extreme close-up, Xander smiles back at Buffy, his face certain in his response.

XANDER: Buffy. Turn around.

From above, we see the two of them look down castle grounds below, and the dozens of Slayers down there.

XANDER: I live with a bunch of Slayers. Dozens of girls who are… so *filled up* with purpose, with confidence they didn’t have before… the walls are vibrating with it. I can’t sleep, the place is so charged.

The view reverses and we see Buffy is leaning against the stone wall along the rampart. She is looking over at Xander, smiling fondly.

BUFFY: You really need to ask Renee out already.

XANDER: Stop changing the subject to true things. Maybe now we’re only cleaning up messes, but we’re just getting started. What you’ve created here is a lot more than just monster fighters. It’s… you know, ah…

We see a close-up of Buffy in profile, looking sad again.

BUFFY: Connection. Why can’t I feel it?

The view reverses, and Xander rubs his chin as he answers.

XANDER: Maybe you don’t get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.

Down below, we see the Slayers, happily training and sparring with each other. Up in the distance, we see the shapes of Buffy and Xander watching them.

BUFFY: Yeah.

In close-up again, Buffy stares ahead with resignation on her face.

BUFFY: Yay me.


Nov 21 2009 04:54 am   #30nmcil
I totally hate my tiny house with not enough room to organize all my stuff - have been looking for this issue and I can't bloody find it.  Wanted to read it again - all those early issue need to be read again.  One of the things that I really dislike about the comic books is not having full text or a taped episode to check easily.

What I connect with this is from the very first issue - and the visuals that we see is Elizabeth the Virgin Queen - another leader that had to give up her human relationships to her service for her people and empire - plus all that nasty business about who and how will end up as the ruler.  Now that Buffy has been zapped by the blue goddess, she is going to be uber stronger and beyond - if she has even a bit of all the power those ladies have been taking in, she is going to have awesome powers. 

Buffy is such a conflicted character - always pissing and moaning about her slayer duties and powers and had intrusive it all becomes on her life, but when she is weak, like in the Retreat arc issue 30 what comes out of her mouth "my god, it sucks to be weak!"   - 

what the heck is Buffy not feeling - she not feeling the confidence, the excitement  of being extremely powerful, the mission?  What is sure is that with extreme power, comes responsibilities - and along with this also comes extreme struggles for power, there will always be other people and groups that want your power or to destroy that power.   In Sunnydale, with the knowledge  they had, there was  no choice - make the potentials Slayers and stronger or give up the fight.  

The real kicker from all of this is, had the true magic and function of the amulet been known, Spike would have been the only vital and needed force and sacrifice from the battle against The First.   Maybe not good story telling but it sure would

Excerpts from Wizard "Buffy Power" Joss Whedon interview:

Joss Whedon:  "The whole idea was to make Season Eight this sort of gradually bubbling brew of the Slayers becoming this group of pariahs. 

Joss Whedon:  "At the end of Jane's arc, something happens to Buffy that has never happened before that changes her quite a bit, and Brad's arc is really about that.  Brad's arc, it's just so complex and precise, but it's very Buffy."

Joss Whedon:  Finally, issue #36 begins the slow build to the "season finale."  It's just gonna be up to me to take all the pieces and wrap them up in the most outrageous and painful way I possibly can." 

Wizard:  Hey, maybe someone will die? 

Joss Whedon:  Yeah, I figure I gotta kill someone.  (maybe) Buffy, I don't think she's that popular....I don't understand my own work, I should go to the message boards."


It will be interesting to see what he comes up with for the big finale and his Buffyverse realm.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 22 2009 03:30 am   #31Spikez_tart
Now that Buffy has been zapped by the blue goddess, she is going to be uber stronger and beyond - if she has even a bit of all the power those ladies have been taking in, she is going to have awesome powers.   - Uh - when did this happen?  I'm missing some issues and I'm only at Retreat 4. 

What the hell is the mission?  There doesn't appear to be one except running away from Riley and his friends.

Jose sure should go to the message boards.  Maybe he could get some better ides.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 22 2009 06:55 am   #32nmcil
Probably totally wrong here, my current speculations are that this will end up being a struggle between the triad of Buffy, Fray and Harth - maybe even the other sister.  With Buffy having traveled to the Fray time lines and the focus point of Fray and Harth having split the Slayer into male/female.  Fray and Harth were forced into adversarial roles with Harth having access to all the Slayer history and knowledge through his dreams - could be why Twiglight states that he knows Buffy's moves,

At first I thought that Buffy's new powers came from the Goddess, but maybe somehow Buffy and Fray are sharing powers now.  Fray could fly and now Buffy can as well.  With Elizabeth popping up occasionally and all the stylized clothing that Willow wears as well as Twiglight, maybe Joss will bring back that last great watcher as Twighlight.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 22 2009 11:08 am   #33sosa lola
At first I thought that Buffy's new powers came from the Goddess

I'm leaning towards Buffy's new powers being her old powers as well as her slayers' powers and Willow's powers.
Nov 22 2009 09:40 pm   #34nmcil
Took a look at the panels again and Buffy is shown in a suggestion of skeletal form, plus the eyes covered over are used so often in rituals and symbols of death and rite of passage to other realms - so I am back to Buffy getting powers transferred by the "wam" which is mirror of maw.   Since Willow can fly your assessment is a good one.  Also thinking that if Twiglight is from the Fray time lines, it could be that the reason he is totally covered up is that he could be Harth.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 03 2010 07:42 pm   #35nmcil
Thought you might like to read this short article from "Buffyfest" on the Buffy-Satsu connection - Great Statement

Today we talk about she who is formerly the one girl in all the world who can have bad bangs and still slay the dust out of any vamp: Buffy. Her romantic and sexual entanglements with a card carrying member of Team Lady came as a huge surprise to fans of the series and the reactions ran the gamut from thrilled to irate. In a post Prop 8 world now is an excellent time to revisit this watershed moment in recent Buffy history.Hide


First let's make a real life comparison. In their most recent issue, Out Magazine released their annual list of 100 people who were important to the LGBTQ community be they members of the community or allies of it. The most controversial name that appeared was Katy Perry whose pop hit "I Kissed a Girl" made waves this year. Perry, a heterosexual woman, singing about kissing another woman elicited many to question the message she was getting across and whether it is a benefit or detriment to the community. Is it exploitation or is it a challenge to puritanical views?

In many ways Buffy faces the same judgment. The difference, of course, is that Buffy is fictional hence it's easier to debate and interpret her actions. She's also Buffy: the general to a slayer army. She's still the one girl in all the world. Everyone is relying on her to make all the right decisions. If the whole planet gets swallowed into apocalyptic, hell dimensiony woe the proverbial buck will stop with her. No pressure though, right?

Divorce yourself for the moment of the idea that she is a creation of this man, Joss Whedon. Don't think about his motivations. Treat her like you would any flesh and bone human and really ask yourself why this hetero normative girl would have sex with another woman.

Faith would say that slaying gets her sexually revved up. It gives you that itch that only sexy time can scratch. Willow would remind us that Buffy always feels alone, vulnerable and that an ill advised one night stand could always come out of that. Xander would tell us that Buffy has had one night stands before that were far more naive and ill advised than this one. Still, we don't get the answer from Buffy herself. All the world is a buzz but the only voice that matters remains silent and rightly so.

Buffy owes an explanation to no one but Satsu. Buffy may not be a "daughter of Sappho" but it doesn't matter. We readily accept that she boinked the undead but suddenly chicks are out of bounds? She can save the world on a day to day basis but the girl can't get a craving? Whether she is the one girl or every girl (and I would argue that she is both) all that matters is that who she takes to bed with her is her business and her's alone.

Why did Buffy sleep with Satsu? She wanted to. Period. Why judge her? Why judge anyone? By what authority was anyone ever given to decide what constitutes acceptable love, sex, and the wedding of souls?

Buffy is the Slayer. When asked the big questions she answers not in words but in deeds and we should do the same. She had fantastic sex with a woman named Satsu. She might do it again or she might not. Right now though there's a world needs saving. While she fights vampires and demons, we fight an ailing economy, a rapidly diminishing primary energy source, severe and dangerous environmental changes of our own making, poverty, homelessness, and starvation. These are the issues of our time, the issues throughout time and in every corner of the world. Why did we spend countless millions over what or whom lays betwixt the sheets? Why would we ever consider denying any one group of people their basic civil liberties when the whole of human civilization is falling down around our ears?

What does Buffy say? Nothing. She acts and it's high time we all stood up and did the same.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 04 2010 02:02 am   #36ladycat713 
What was wrong with Buffy sleeping with Satsu had nothing to do with Satsu being female (even though that part seemed like part of the current trend on suddenly making straight characters  bisexual (if you're aroused enough to have sex with both sexes that makes you bisexual not bi curious . It's in the name even if you have a strong preference for one sex) . My outrage had nothing to do with her sudden out of nowhere bisexuality.

It had to do with the fact that Buffy knew that Satsu was in love with her and led her on by having sex with her. You can say that Satsu knew what she was getting into all you like but by sleeping with her Buffy gave her hope for a relationship. It's even acknowledged in a later issue (by Kennedy talking to Satsu) that Buffy led her on.

And that's just dead wrong. It was wrong when Spike did it with Harmony and it it's wrong when Buffy did it with Satsu. Using people is never the action of a hero .

At least with Spike you can say that he was supposed to be evil when he used Harmony the first time. Buffy has no such excuse. The Buffyverse has established that a soul is supposed to make you have a conscience. To me that means that the souled should be held to a higher standard than the unsouled and the  heroes to an even higher one. Unfortunately the heroes seem to be the bad guys these days. I had high hopes that Buffy would grow up in Season 8 . Instead she's even more of an user than she was in season 6 (with Satsu there's no fake excuse of her being souless and evil). And we know she never acknowledged any wrongdoing with that. She only acknowledged her use of Spike with a harsh " You're just now getting that?" when he said he knows now that she was just using him.

I can accept my heroes having faults but there should be more good than bad in the character.

The heart is a fragile thing and the Scoobies don't seem to care who they hurt outside of thier small circle (Buffy , Willow, Xander ) because when they do hurt others they never apologiize or admit fault. It offends my sense of justice that this callousness never seems to some back and bite them in the butt in order to make them better people anywhere but in fanfic.

on a side note

The sudden bisexuality, suddenly gay trend in characters is a backlash from the previous lack of lgbt storylines and a large rush to catch up. The unfortunate result of this sudden rush is that there's a lot of crappy storylines. Buffy once again being a user is one of them. There's hundreds of Slayers , that means plenty of characters to get us to love them and care about thier fate in the Slayer line to make be bisexual or gay without suddenly making a previously straight character bisexual by having them use someone who loves them for sex. . Have two Slayers fall in love (one gay, one bi) and have the gay one worried about whether her girlfriend will bow to family pressure and get back together with her old boyfriend. Have the two Slayers in Love fight off a horde of bad guys back to back and emerge bruised but unbroken proving that thier love gives them strength.

There were other ways to go with all the Scoobies storylines and so far they seem to go for the worst possible path for all of them.

Another example of a a bad gay storyline  is on Young and the Restless (my mother's a fan). They have Philip , who's been thought dead suddenly show up saying that he faked his death because he's gay and he didn't know how to tell them. Does this make him a character I care about, Not at all. It makes him a jerk who abandoned his child and left his wife to commit bigamy (unknowingly ) when she remarried. not to mention his mother also thought he was dead.

A better plot line would have him get into a car accident after picking up a hitchhiker , be injured but still able to stagger off(with the car bursting into flames behind him) make it to a box car or a car trailer and take shelter into the about to move transport and wake up far away from home with no idea who he was and where he came from. Without the knowledge that he was indentifying himself as straight he slowly comes to realize that he's gay maybe by falling in love with the doctor nursing him back to health or someone similar.

Buffy's use of Satsu was sex on her part but no love or wedding of souls.which would be what Satsu was hoping for even if it was never stated.If it was love, sex and the wedding of souls on both thier parts I would be happy because that would mean that Buffy had finally become a person capable of a mature relationship. If Buffy was male there would be no one trumpeting her behavior as sexy or groundbreaking. It would be just another jerk using a lovestruck girl for sex. And that's what Buffy is, just another jerk. I read a review of season 6   and it had where it was put to a person Buffy's behavior as if she was a man and Spike a woman. This made the person see her behavior for the abuse it was. The judgement of a person's behavior should be the same whether they are male or female and if switching the character's gender makes you see the behavior as bad then it is bad even before the switch. Buffy behaved badly . Gender irregardless.
Jan 04 2010 03:28 am   #37BandS
The problem with Twilight being from the Fray time line...is a bit off...

Now that the covers have been released for #33 you see a devastated and shocked Buffy...

Why would she be devastated that it's Harth?  Or even a version of Harth...If it's not Spike or Angel or anyone else that the Scoobs know...then I think it will be a future Scoob, Buffy herself (though the height throws me a bit), or someone so far fetched--that we as the audience will be doing double takes...

But, then again, as I read the comics straight through I had some understanding (I stress that some).   I hear things floating around about the comics...and I'm completely confuzzled...lol!

Talks about symbols and what this could mean and how this could be important to give us a clue...I think what it is---is just art.  Simple as that.  One thing about all these blogs about Buffy and Satsu...I'm shaking my head...

It just happened.  Or that's the way the writers wanted it to seem.  Satsu was there in that moment, and Buffy was flattered by her.  End of story.  They handled it rather well.  Did it hurt...both?  Absolutely.  Buffy seemed as I read it first, to be doing as she always did...BUT I reread it with an open mind...

She wasn't.  She cares for Satsu...just not on the level that Satsu does...And really?  I don't think it's based on if your gay or not...It's the person...Buffy cares for her, but just not enough to make that commitment.  She's terrified...she has a complex with relationships.  And honestly?  It's her own fault because she allows it.  She might have to defend herself when her lover (Angel) goes evil...ultimately sending him to hell...to then nursing him back...to him finally leaving...  Then next she is used by Parker to finally another similar situation with her next lover as with Angel...except he's human but has secrets.  It ends with him jetting off to finding love with another woman (whom btw isn't in the comics???).  Then there is Spike whom SHE uses...and they have this unhealthy relationship (which was started by Buffy).  I justify Spike fighting with her because come on she played kick the Spike for how long before a Vampire can now defend himself.  Yes I don't see how Buffy is this great general...and reading that Joss could even get rid of Buffy..ugh wouldn't that end the series then or ultimately change the title?

Which brings me to her new found power that we will see next issue...I truly believe that she gained this power due to something we aren't aware of yet...I thought it was the Blue goddess too and she lands in snow?  I'm still confused with a lot that goes on comics because they don't give you a lot like say a book would.

As for the Dawn/Xander arc versus the Buffy/Xander arc...I actually found the Dawn/Xander arc more believable.  At this point I have lost all love for Buffy...She is looking for connection constantly...yet she destroys it when she has it.  Xander screwed up horribly with Anya...but I think he essentially learned that mistake and harshly just as losing Renee...He doesn't have a problem with connection...He has this problem with going the distance...

Buffy is a clinger and hopes for that connection when she misses out on the actual growth in a relationship because she is still trying to connect.  Spike connected with her in ways that most of her other lovers had not...Yet she abused that connection to the point it ended painfully...Her own fault and Spike stakes his own claim in his part in their whatever it was...But I'm not going there because I view Season 6 with a very opinionated mind...lol

I had stopped reading these comics back at # 4 but then ended up reading them straight through recently...Some are incredibly hard to understand...BUT what I interpreted from this season...it was about finally facing some truths especially with Willow and Buffy.  Owning up to their own behavior...

The scene that some see as representing Buffy as possibly pregnant...I think is more coming to terms of a close one hurting her--about her finally facing and showing Willow---how she truly feels...Because as the issue with both Willow and Buffy going through this journey together they finally came to some term---they have hurt each other...whether they wanted to or not...And it's a deep burn whether they admit or not...Which is why we see them after their journey is over walking off separately...The burn between friendships run deeper ( I think) or similar than lovers but more so?  Does that make any sense?  I believe in lovers come and go but friendships are forever type thing?  But hey that's what I think...lol

Just to let everyone know...Twilight is revealed somewhat in 33 but completely revealed to us in 34...from what I have heard.



Jan 04 2010 04:04 am   #38~ Ami 

A big HELL YEAH, to everything you just said ladycat713. But what else do you expect when you have hundreds of horny, teenage girls all living together in an isolated castle, with like no males around except, Giles, Andrew and Xander?(they are the only males around right?Correct me if I'm wrong.) Who else are they gonna have sex with? And supposedly slaying makes them horny...so that leaves only each other.  Or a really big credit card bill for online ordering of sex toys. LOL. Or Xander and Andrew can be STUDS and service them all...Really stupid storyline IMO. Having them all together and isolated like that, what kind of relationships are they gonna have?  If I was a potential Slayer, I'd be ...I'm outta here, and probably turn  rogue or evil or something cause I don't think I could handle that. :-P

I am curious as to Twilight's identity even if I don't read anymore.:)

 

Jan 04 2010 04:16 am   #39Niori 
Ladycat 713, you just expressed half the issues I have with the comics (and I also agree with you about Young and the Restless- my grandmother watches it). Well done, and I couldn't agree with you more that charcters having flaws are one thing, whileBuffy takes it to a whole new level that is not cool.
Jan 04 2010 04:18 am   #40nmcil
Forget who made the observation that they wanted to get Buffy in some kind of relationship but that since so much has been invested in the Buffy-Angel Forever that going with a girl gave the franchise both goals. 

And I do agree with you on the "Using Someone" - even if Satsu was fine with it being a "sex only" thing, it is still, for me, a question of the choices Buffy makes.  I would have been perfectly fine with Buffy going with another woman, it's the whole "someone who really loves you" dynamic that was set-up with that Buffy/Princess and True Love magic spell.  If they wanted Buffy to love another woman, great - but just go with that change or theme, woman to woman, free and clear.

I won't be at all surprised if that whole encounter with Buffy and Satsu  ends up being some big deal thing in the context of the season. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 05 2010 11:10 pm   #41ladycat713 
quote It just happened.  Or that's the way the writers wanted it to seem.  Satsu was there in that moment, and Buffy was flattered by her.  End of story.  They handled it rather well.  Did it hurt...both?  Absolutely.  Buffy seemed as I read it first, to be doing as she always did...BUT I reread it with an open mind...

She wasn't.  She cares for Satsu...just not on the level that Satsu does...unquote

It just happened can excuse the first time but not the second. By then Buffy had to be well aware that she was leading Satsu on. It also doesn't excuse the way she ignored Satsu and treated her like just another Slayer the next time she saw her.That's not caring to me.

Also since I used the Spike/Harmony comparison before . Spike given a just happened situation (jumping Harmony after being dead and a ghost(which would be pure hell for anyone never mind someone so tactile)  and just becoming solid didn't go back for more the way Buffy did. He also didn't flat out ignore Harmony the way Buffy did Satsu. Satsu was treated like a nonentity , Harmony like a irritantt.. This meant Satsu wasn't allowed to say her piece and move on, Harmony could progress where she couldn't . Even though he didn't treat her nicely he did acknowledge her existance and Harmony was able to move on . Satsu will be stuck wondering what she did wrong and what is wrong with her especially considering that she has most likely been taught that Buffy is the greatest Slayer and to be looked up to.

Also Harmony knew by then that Spike didn't love her because of the way he treated her before , Satsu had no such info to react from. Harmony was already at the point where she could call him a Slayer loving freak yet still admit she wanted to sleep with him , Satsu was calling Buffy Maam.

Spike's supposed to be evil, Buffy the ultimate expression of good. Yet look at thier behavior in similar situations.

LIke Faith asked Buffy when she showed up in Sunnydale. Are you the bad Slayer now? The answer seems to yes. And I'm disappointed by that.

Also compare thier situations. Spike was stuck in the palace of evil (wolfram and hart) while Buffy was in a castle full of Heaven's chosen warriors. Spike goes out and  to help people while Buffy teaches girls to rob banks . The bank robbery could lead to higher interest rates , lost jobs for the security guards (maybe with thier family out on the streets , jail time for employees if they think it's an inside job (they teleported in right) and physical damage to any security guard who tries to stop them. If they really wanted to get money , they could rob all the drug dealers and tie them up with evidence that would convict them and call the police, take down child porn rings , human trafficing rings etc. They've got the menas and the ability to do so. It would finance them while doping a lot of good.The smplist solution would be tlo track down the Council's money, they blew up the money didn't. It's still out there. Have Willow dust off her hacker skills and find it using Giles' help in figuring out passwords since he knew the Council members and might be better at guessing them,

When the whole Immortal thing was written it was said that it written with deniability in mind. That meant I was hopeful that they would make things better . Unfortunately they've done nothing but make things worse . I'm not sure if any of the Scoobies have emerged unscathed , Maybe Faith , Giles and Andrew have but I could be wrong.

The ones who've come up with ways to make things better are the fanfic writers. The comic writers need to take some hints from them because on thier own they're not cutting it..
Jan 05 2010 11:32 pm   #42ladycat713 
quote It just happened.  Or that's the way the writers wanted it to seem.  Satsu was there in that moment, and Buffy was flattered by her.  End of story.  They handled it rather well.  Did it hurt...both?  Absolutely.  Buffy seemed as I read it first, to be doing as she always did...BUT I reread it with an open mind...

She wasn't.  She cares for Satsu...just not on the level that Satsu does...unquote

It just happened can excuse the first time but not the second. By then Buffy had to be well aware that she was leading Satsu on. It also doesn't excuse the way she ignored Satsu and treated her like just another Slayer the next time she saw her.That's not caring to me.

Also since I used the Spike/Harmony comparison before . Spike given a just happened situation (jumping Harmony after being dead and a ghost(which would be pure hell for anyone never mind someone so tactile)  and just becoming solid didn't go back for more the way Buffy did. He also didn't flat out ignore Harmony the way Buffy did Satsu. Satsu was treated like a nonentity , Harmony like a irritantt.. This meant Satsu wasn't allowed to say her piece and move on, Harmony could progress where she couldn't . Even though he didn't treat her nicely he did acknowledge her existance and Harmony was able to move on . Satsu will be stuck wondering what she did wrong and what is wrong with her especially considering that she has most likely been taught that Buffy is the greatest Slayer and to be looked up to.

Also Harmony knew by then that Spike didn't love her because of the way he treated her before , Satsu had no such info to react from. Harmony was already at the point where she could call him a Slayer loving freak yet still admit she wanted to sleep with him , Satsu was calling Buffy Maam.

Spike's supposed to be evil, Buffy the ultimate expression of good. Yet look at thier behavior in similar situations.

LIke Faith asked Buffy when she showed up in Sunnydale. Are you the bad Slayer now? The answer seems to yes. And I'm disappointed by that.

Also compare thier situations. Spike was stuck in the palace of evil (wolfram and hart) while Buffy was in a castle full of Heaven's chosen warriors. Spike goes out and  to help people while Buffy teaches girls to rob banks . The bank robbery could lead to higher interest rates , lost jobs for the security guards (maybe with thier family out on the streets , jail time for employees if they think it's an inside job (they teleported in right) and physical damage to any security guard who tries to stop them. If they really wanted to get money , they could rob all the drug dealers and tie them up with evidence that would convict them and call the police, take down child porn rings , human trafficing rings etc. They've got the menas and the ability to do so. It would finance them while doping a lot of good.The smplist solution would be tlo track down the Council's money, they blew up the money didn't. It's still out there. Have Willow dust off her hacker skills and find it using Giles' help in figuring out passwords since he knew the Council members and might be better at guessing them,

When the whole Immortal thing was written it was said that it written with deniability in mind. That meant I was hopeful that they would make things better . Unfortunately they've done nothing but make things worse . I'm not sure if any of the Scoobies have emerged unscathed , Maybe Faith , Giles and Andrew have but I could be wrong.

The ones who've come up with ways to make things better are the fanfic writers. The comic writers need to take some hints from them because on thier own they're not cutting it..
Jan 05 2010 11:35 pm   #43ladycat713 
quote It just happened.  Or that's the way the writers wanted it to seem.  Satsu was there in that moment, and Buffy was flattered by her.  End of story.  They handled it rather well.  Did it hurt...both?  Absolutely.  Buffy seemed as I read it first, to be doing as she always did...BUT I reread it with an open mind...

She wasn't.  She cares for Satsu...just not on the level that Satsu does...unquote

It just happened can excuse the first time but not the second. By then Buffy had to be well aware that she was leading Satsu on. It also doesn't excuse the way she ignored Satsu and treated her like just another Slayer the next time she saw her.That's not caring to me.

Also since I used the Spike/Harmony comparison before . Spike given a just happened situation (jumping Harmony after being dead and a ghost(which would be pure hell for anyone never mind someone so tactile)  and just becoming solid didn't go back for more the way Buffy did. He also didn't flat out ignore Harmony the way Buffy did Satsu. Satsu was treated like a nonentity , Harmony like a irritantt.. This meant Satsu wasn't allowed to say her piece and move on, Harmony could progress where she couldn't . Even though he didn't treat her nicely he did acknowledge her existance and Harmony was able to move on . Satsu will be stuck wondering what she did wrong and what is wrong with her especially considering that she has most likely been taught that Buffy is the greatest Slayer and to be looked up to.

Also Harmony knew by then that Spike didn't love her because of the way he treated her before , Satsu had no such info to react from. Harmony was already at the point where she could call him a Slayer loving freak yet still admit she wanted to sleep with him , Satsu was calling Buffy Maam.

Spike's supposed to be evil, Buffy the ultimate expression of good. Yet look at thier behavior in similar situations.

LIke Faith asked Buffy when she showed up in Sunnydale. Are you the bad Slayer now? The answer seems to yes. And I'm disappointed by that.

Also compare thier situations. Spike was stuck in the palace of evil (wolfram and hart) while Buffy was in a castle full of Heaven's chosen warriors. Spike goes out and  to help people while Buffy teaches girls to rob banks . The bank robbery could lead to higher interest rates , lost jobs for the security guards (maybe with thier family out on the streets , jail time for employees if they think it's an inside job (they teleported in right) and physical damage to any security guard who tries to stop them. If they really wanted to get money , they could rob all the drug dealers and tie them up with evidence that would convict them and call the police, take down child porn rings , human trafficing rings etc. They've got the menas and the ability to do so. It would finance them while doping a lot of good.The smplist solution would be tlo track down the Council's money, they blew up the money didn't. It's still out there. Have Willow dust off her hacker skills and find it using Giles' help in figuring out passwords since he knew the Council members and might be better at guessing them,

When the whole Immortal thing was written it was said that it written with deniability in mind. That meant I was hopeful that they would make things better . Unfortunately they've done nothing but make things worse . I'm not sure if any of the Scoobies have emerged unscathed , Maybe Faith , Giles and Andrew have but I could be wrong.

The ones who've come up with ways to make things better are the fanfic writers. The comic writers need to take some hints from them because on thier own they're not cutting it..
Jan 05 2010 11:37 pm   #44ladycat713 
My browser got hung up and apparantly when i hit submit several times it submitted but didn't acknowledge . Sorry for the repeat.
Jan 05 2010 11:51 pm   #45~ Ami 
Ladycat, get outta my head. lol  Word, Word and Amen!  They have made everything worse. I think the Immortal storyline in TGIQ is preferable to this stuff...robbing banks is not a victimless crime, like they think. UGH!! Using people for sex is wrong and  it "just happened" is no excuse if you do it again and then treat the person like nothing afterwards. :( "It just happened " is OK if it was just once!
Jan 06 2010 12:33 am   #46nmcil
Don't know what Satsu's final part will be in this comic season - but she was set-up much like Spike playing the Parallel male character to Riley.  With Spike you had the "Something Blue" marriage set-up, with Satsu the set-up starts with what seems a very friendly and simple statement meant as light comedy -

Buffy:  one of whom, sidebar: has her best hair ever, Satsu, you're making me think I need a new look, see me after.  

That  later ends up having a sexual encounter with this woman who is described as "one who has a true love and passionately devoted to her."  Perhaps Satsu will find a happier ending and time of it than Spike does - or maybe all that true love and passionate devotion, will again find someone that will sacrifice themselves for Buffy.  Will Joss end up having Buffy sacrifice for Satsu? 

After all this speculation I think I just want the season to finally come to an end.  
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 06 2010 09:30 am   #47ladycat713 
nmcil, is that I want it to come to an end because you want to see how it ends or because you just want it to stop and be over with. Because that could be taken either way.
Jan 06 2010 11:01 am   #48BandS
I think I might have either said something wrong or it was interpreted wrong...I never know how to make things simple...lol

Ladycat...I do agree with you even though it seems not...I do however, believe in that it does just happen...whether we want it to or not...Did she use Satsu...uh that wasn't the vibe I got when I re-read it again.

Buffy experimented yes.  I do believe that Satsu was hurt the most--after all it was she who was in love with Buffy.  I didn't mean much by the it just happened.  It could happen once...it could happen many times...The fact is it just happened.  I still do believe that Buffy cares for her, just not in the way Satsu wants her to. 

Buffy mentions not feeling that connection, and I'm not sure if it was said in so many words, but I got this feeling it was about the Slayer army--not feeling connected to any of them.  I think she felt for Satsu like she would, say, Willow, Giles, Xander, or Dawn, and quite possibly Andrew.  Her having sex not once but twice with Satsu came right down to--it just happened.  She did what she did with Spike with Satsu, yet she acts more like she cares than she did with 'soulless' Spike.

The problem with that scene to me--the writers threw this in (and I bet more the men than the women on this) wanted to see this.  Which is why I sway in both heated discussions about Buffy and Satsu.  Buffy seems to care, yet she still used Satsu.

I agree Nmcil...I think they are just digging for just about anything they can come up with now, and putting it to paper.  Next they will have a threesome featuring Dawn, Xander, and Buffy...Bangs head repeatedly...

If no one agrees...I'm telling you I understand the idea of experimentation too...but come on...the scenes were funny afterward...but the underlying love feelings from Buffy to dream fantasy Spike/Angel, Satsu, Xander, Riley, and Willow---oh god even Andrew too?  Next they will have her panting after Faith then becoming crushville with Giles...

Yeah I'm with Nmcil...it's run it's course if they can't come up with Buffy sounding like the ideal woman of empowerment when all she really is constantly boohooing she is disconnected and still searching for something she is never going to get because, well, the writers keep stretching it out trying to make it seem she is a warrior and love and happy endings isn't what it's about...

I too shudder to think what their idea of an ending for this series would be...and judging by a LOT of the forums and video's I have seen on the comic writers...there are a lot of Bangel fans...which if you think about it...is insane...She hasn't seen him nor spoken to him...and yet they are end all the majority of the writers hope for?

Ok...babbled too much...medicine kicked in...darn weather making me get all sickly!  I was hoping for a year of not being sick...I had like 1 week to go until I could say WOW wasn't sick (with head cold or bronchitis) for one whole year, lol!

:)

Jan 06 2010 06:15 pm   #49ladycat713 
The time to treat Satsu like just another Slayer was before she slept with her not after. Even just asking to see her later alone was encouraging her.

If you know someone is in love with you enough to break a spell than you don't make a point of being alone with them unless you are planning to encourage them. The problem with Buffy is that she is more than a little self absorbed  and doesn't seem to notice the effects she has on others. The Scoobies et all have been guilty of this.

And I've never really bought into the bicurious term. Technically someone who is bisexual is a person who enjoys sex with both sexes, even if they have a very strong preference for one gender. And Buffy obviously enjoyed herself . I consider Willow bisexual for the same reason, she enjoyed herself with Oz and when he came back it was tough for her to decide between him and Tara.

And it is a total fanboy thing to have as many female characters to suddenly be bicurious.They don't do the same thing with the male characters. A lot of things are designed to appeal to the fanbase that enjoys seeing women together or just naked women. Even in movies, you see naked women all over the landscape but you rarely if ever see a naked male. Even in porn movies I've flipped by the hetero position is naked woman in front guy in back so that all you see is the woman's front. The guy could be wearing a suit for all you see. Those of us who are only interested in naked men (straight women and gay men) are out of luck.
Jan 06 2010 07:38 pm   #50nmcil

Satsu, IMO, is by far the more self-aware and mature of the two - while Buffy goes into her self-centered clueless mode in the last panels of their Sexual Encounters in "Wolves At The Gate," it is Satsu that understands and makes the right choice to distance herself physically from Buffy.    Buffy is talking about being able to  Buffy:  I can make it easier on you, I promise"   Just how the hell is that suppose to work - how do you ease the pain and heartache that comes from unrequited love?  You can't - no matter how much you feel sorry or how much regret you feel for not being able to return the love that another persons feels - It really all comes down to the person who is not loved back.  It the end they are the ones who have to suffer through all the pain and have to find a way to live their lives without that love being returned. 

While many readers may not like the choices Buffy makes regarding Satsu - those last panels make it clear that Satsu is a willing participant and has accepted their sexual encounter as is. 

They problems that I have with Buffy as a person and the prime heroine model is that after all the havoc, suffering, deaths, and person pain that she experienced with Angel/Angelus and after all the horrors of her relationship with Spike - the character seem to have made little growth regarding her emotional maturity about love.  It's like poor Buffy is still in that hamster cage symbolism from the dreamspace with Ethan Rayne.   And that erotic dream she is shown with Spike and Angel - on the surface it makes for a great sex fantasy, but the reality is that people who have deep love for another person, and who understand the vulnerability of human emotions, I believe would also understand that people don't work this way.  The character we know from the series we know as Spike, IMO, would be heartbroken with the idea of having to share Buffy with another man.  Yes, it is a sexual erotic fantasy, but underneath the first layer, I see a woman that is still very immature when it comes to love. 


Buffy is still so very much like a little girl when it comes to understanding deep and mature love - Twilight is right about that when he states that his has learned a lot about this Slayer. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 06 2010 07:45 pm   #51BandS 
Ceraintly makes you think this will always be a problem--whether it's being written about or shown to us.  Women will always be baring all while the men...you have to imagine.  Straight women and gay men should have an uproar...lol...

Jokes aside, you're absolutely right ladycat.  I don't condone what Buffy did with Satsu at all, sure it was funny after the first time with getting caught.  After though, I wanted to slap Buffy.  I wonder if Joss will have the nerve to kill Buffy off considering it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer...Would he switch it over?  I wonder.  He has said she is a possible candidate to be killed off.  But that could be mere hope for those who don't like Buffy at all.

I'm one of those, canon-wise, who didn't like Buffy so much.  She yearns for this fanciful life yet she empowers girls, who like her, may or may not have wanted it.  She yearns for something that I believe she would have ended up bored with and wishing she had the power again.  Interesting how Willow and Buffy are very similar.

Question:  Did Faith not want to be a Slayer in the tv show?  Comic-wise it sounds like she wants out?  Am I wrong?  Did anyone find that Faith and Giles connect more than Buffy and Giles?  And why write them this way, when in the show it seemed like Giles didn't care for Faith in that capacity at all.  Again, am I wrong?
Jan 07 2010 01:31 am   #52nmcil
I feel really sorry for Faith in this comic season - she has been used as an assassin by Giles, just as The Mayor used her to do his dirty work.  The moral choices and perceptions aside, Giles used Faith to kill another slayer and her mage.  Faith does want out of the bloodshed, but at the end of her arc with Giles, what she finally decides is that she wants to work to help try to salvage some of the Slayer that might turn dark or rogue instead of just taking herself out the playing field.   Buffy really shows her bad side with how she treats Giles and Faith during part of this arc - makes rash judgments without giving either Giles or Faith to talk about their mission.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 07 2010 04:52 am   #53ladycat713 
Buffy is not known for being one of the last great thinkers. More of a snap judgement kind of person who never apologizes.

And in regards to Satsu. Love isn't brains, it's blood screaming to work it's will. You don't think clearly if you're madly in love and see a hope faint though it may be to be with the one you love. That's why Satsu slept with Buffy when it would've been better for her to not to and why Spike stayed long after he should've hit the highway . Satsu couldn't help but try to be with Buffy when given the chance, common sense and self preservation weren't in control. Therefore the responsiblity for rational non ruled by love behavior fell to Buffy and she blew it.When given the chance to not give foolish hope to both Spike and Satsu she choose to give hope and cause pain every time. Even though she'd occassionally tell Spike no after sleeping with him , she'd have sex with the next chance she got.

That's why I like my Spuffy in fanfiction. That's where Buffy and all the Scoobies learn from thier mistakes and grow the heck up.
Jan 07 2010 05:10 am   #54nmcil
Me Too -  THANK YOU Spuffy writers everywhere
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 07 2010 09:47 am   #55sosa lola

That's why I like my Spuffy in fanfiction. That's where Buffy and all the Scoobies learn from thier mistakes and grow the heck up.

I have to disagree about the Scoobies not growing up. In #4, Willow had been kidnapped by Amy, the portal leading to the government can only take two, now if this is S1 through S6, Xander would have jumped into that portal with Buffy without a question, instead he asked Buffy to pick the strongest ally. Buffy was shocked, expecting that Xander would have accompanied her, but he wisely told her that he was not a fighter and Willow must be saved. That shows growth.

Dawn knew that all the transformations she went through were punishment, and she took that punishment, not even accusing Kenny and trying to stop Buffy from thinking that it was his fault. That shows growth. (Even though I think what Kenny did to her is WAY worse than what she did to him.)

As for Buffy and Willow, their stories are connected together, and you will get a better idea about it reading Emmie's lovely essay:

http://angearia.livejournal.com/94099.html

In the end, S8 is about Buffy and Willow's slow corruption, which will lead to their fall in the end of the season. I hope they'll do it right this time, 'cause I hated Buffy's fall in S7.

Jan 07 2010 05:58 pm   #56nmcil

In the end, S8 is about Buffy and Willow's slow corruption, which will lead to their fall in the end of the season. I hope they'll do it right this time, 'cause I hated Buffy's fall in S7.

People doing things for their personal gain and agenda and people doing things from their individual sense of "right and good" -  What is the great Lincoln quote "A House Devided"

How different the Sunnydale War would be had Angel/Angelus and his connections and struggle with Wolfram & Hart and The Senior Partners been different, had the choice to take over W&H not been made.    Knowledge and lack of knowledge about the magic amulet, Lindsey's personal vendetta against Angel/Angelus, the continuing unbroken fallout to Angel/Angelus from his vampire existence - it's just as Willow tells Harth about all those ripples. 

If you go with the references to the power struggles of the Royal Bloodlines this comic season, IMO, fits together - all the dynamics of Super Powers and individual lives at war with themselves and their close family units are at play.   

In the Write Interview Joss Whedon said that the comic season would address the theme of Slayers as they become pariahs  (paraphrase) - does he still work from this premise?  I don't know his latest views.     How does all that power in the hands of a few Slayers work in the world?  We only have to look at the real life political and economic dynamics at play in our times to see how HUGE POWER for just a few works to manipulate the power structure and economics to benefit limited numbers vs the vast amounts of all the others. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 07 2010 07:36 pm   #57ladycat713 
That does show a sign of growth on Xander's part. Either that or he's finally developed a sense of self preservation in non apocalyptic battles after losing the eye.Before losing it he received no lasting damage .

What Dawn went through might actually teach her that her actions have consequences and that when you hurt people it can come back to bite you in the butt. This might actually help her grow and become a better person in the long run where Willow and her sister have not.

In fact , I think Buffy welcoming Willow into her house so easily after her going evil on them was probably a bad idea. It might have been better if the Scoobies had called each other on thier bad behavior instead of lett6ing things slide. Giles' didn't help here by letting Xander get away with feigning amnesia , he started the Scooby denial train there.

What Dawn did to Kenny though might color his perception of women his entire life and damage his ability to trust others , what he did to Dawn is over except for lessons learned.
Jan 08 2010 03:18 am   #58BandS
Hmmm, while going back to read Dawn's process from what she had done--I took notice of her more.  Why?  Well,  not because of her radical changes, but the words behind how she was processing it all.  She worked through her own actions with Kenny's curse...I'm thinking had she gotten away with it, she wouldn't have worked through it the way she had.

What Kenny did sounds worse, but I'm looking at the ending factor here.  Dawn did what the others wouldn't do.  I found that hugely amazing with growth.  Sure she whined at first--typical Dawn behavior, but gradually she owned up to her actions.

So one would wonder: Does it take something so incredible for each of them to own up to their behavior and stop the denial by facing hard truths?

Jan 08 2010 08:29 am   #59ladycat713 
Unfortunately , yes.

Even after people started dancing and singing and burning to death , Xander still didn't admit what he did, everyone guessed after Dawn was kidnapped.And you don't see any sign that he feels guilt over the deaths he caused.

Willow never acknowledged that it was her at fault not the magic . Even though they had one line of Giles saying , you know it's not the magic at fault (paraphrased I can't remember the exact wording) at the beginning of season 7. That line gave me such hope that they'd all grow up and admit to thier errors.

She also never acknowledges what an incredible violation of Tara's body and mind messing with her memories was . Anytime Willow had sex with her after memory erasure was like slipping away a roofie because she took away Tara's consent.

I realize that once they decided to kill Tara they had her come back to Willow to put her into position to be accidentally killed by Warren while he tried to kill Buffy but it would've been better if they hadn't killed Tara and Tara had stayed friends with the others but been incredibly angry and refused to forgive Willow until she admitted what she had done wrong and why it was so wrong. That way if Willow had gotten together with Kennedy (the snotty Slayer) then Tara could go up to her and warn her of Willow's deeds and maybe run a magic check to see if Kennedy was with her willingly.

The Scoobies can be pretty close to being sociopaths in the damage they cause and the lack of guilt. Which makes it pretty interesting when you factor in that Spike without a soul felt guilt , stayed to help the Scoobies and watch over Dawn and went to get a soul and Anya the demon felt guilt and took back her vengeance wish yet both of them were supposed to be evil and without guilt.
Jan 08 2010 09:45 am   #60nmcil
It's a good coincidence that you bring up the demon calling of Xander's in OMWF - I just happen to watch "Phases" today, was looking to check some info.  I found it very disconcerting that the whole attempted rape by Xander was so easily glossed over.  The resolution to this whole incident, with Buffy making this quick line and Xander doing all his glib "Xander Speak" - you have to wonder just what these writers think about the real problems that women face in the world.  Talk about a "white wash" treatment to so much of the really terrible things that their hero and prime characters do in the series.  While we all understand that the series is not the same as real life, that the characters and story lines are not meant to be interpreted within the same parameters of the real world - the series did reflected in very strong ways the real lives of the viewers.  Having Giles, Xander, Buffy all treat an attempted rape as something of so little importance - you just have to wonder what these writers were thinking.  If they were working from the "white wash" mode for their prime characters, why not use another plot device for Xander - rape is one of the most horrendous crimes against another person, and women particularly, yet Xander has never to answer for his action.  It's like any lousy act can be committed by the prime characters and all they need to do is put the "magic" treatment excuse and all is forgiven and redeemed.    We get that Xander had the hots for Buffy in this period, that this is a study of the primal sexual drive, but what a message is being given out -

Excerpt from "Phases"

XANDER: Oh, sure there is. Giles knows stuff, and I'm practically an expert on the subject.

WILLOW: On account of once you were a hyena?

XANDER: I know what it's like to crave the taste of freshly killed meat, to be taken over by those uncontrollable urges.

BUFFY: You said you didn't remember anything about that.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2010 10:02 am   #61sosa lola


The Scoobies can be pretty close to being sociopaths in the damage they cause and the lack of guilt. Which makes it pretty interesting when you factor in that Spike without a soul felt guilt , stayed to help the Scoobies and watch over Dawn and went to get a soul and Anya the demon felt guilt and took back her vengeance wish yet both of them were supposed to be evil and without guilt.

But it took Spike and Anya centuries to feel guilt. They didn't wise up any sooner than the Scoobies did, more accurately, they learned from their mistakes way, way, way later. Especially Anya who seemed to still have her soul when doing all these crimes. Not to mention that Buffy, Xander, Willow and Dawn are in the end kids. They're at the stage where they make mistakes and learn from them.  S7 shows that clearly with Buffy taking Spike in, trying her hardest to help him, believing in him, rescuing him from the First... doesn't that show growth? Xander had told Anya how sorry he was in S6 the minute he saw her after the wedding, in S7 he tried to save her from Buffy while knowing she was a demon, he searched for her in the collapsing building of Sunnydale High not fearing for his life, not to mention his attitude towards Spike mellowing a lot... doesn't that show growth? Willow trying her hardest not to slip, feeling guilty over her new attraction to Kennedy thinking she was moving on fast, and her summoning D'haffrin to save Anya from Buffy.... doesn't that show growth? Dawn deciding to be research gal, learning foreign languages, fighting and being more useful than she ever was shows growth, too.

So, I respectfully disagree about the Scoobies never learning from their mistakes or growing up. I asked at another forum some fans to give examples of the Scoobies learning from their mistakes in S8:

Buffy:

In Touched Buffy tells Spike that "being the slayer always made her different, but it's her fault she stays that way." She stated that "people always tried to connect with her but she just pushed them away." Buffy has clearly taken this on board and has tried to change her behaviour;

- When she feels disconnected in A Beautiful Sunset she actually TELLS somebody! This is kinda huge for Buffy. Rather than stew in her own misery she talks to Xander about it and opens up.

- Satsu tries to connect with her and Buffy wants it. Yes the Buffy/Satsu relationship can be problematic and there was some "two way advantaging going on" but Buffy wanted to find a connection. She did not push Satsu away.

- Delegating her leadership with her friends. In S7 Buffy took it upon herself to be the sole leader of the potentials but here she trusts others to work with her.

- Developing a solid rapport with her slayers. In S7 Buffy shut herself off and appeared unlikeable to the Potential Slayers. In S8 she’s struck the right balance between being friendly with them whilst still earning their respect.

- Rather than hide behind an ice queen persona (like she did in Get It Done) Buffy shows her feelings over Aiko's death and lets Willow comfort her.

 

Jan 08 2010 10:55 am   #62sosa lola
I found it very disconcerting that the whole attempted rape by Xander was so easily glossed over.

I think there are a few factors to that:

1- Buffy knew it wasn't Xander who tried to rape her.
2- Buffy was stronger than Xander.

I guess that's why there was no emotional scars.

Xander did test the waters by asking if he did anything other eating the pig, his friends denied that he did, which told him that all the awful he was forced to do wasn't a big deal to them. Giles knew that it won't help matters if he told on Xander, because in the end, Xander didn't do these things. If Xander wasn't possessed when he committed those deeds, it'll be a different story.

As for OMWF, I agree with you, guys. Xander should have been at least yelled at for that, it's one of the reasons why I don't think OMWF is a 100% perfect episode. As for learning from that mistake, Xander did remind Dawn that playing with magic is wrong in Older and Far Away refrencing to what he did in OMWF. Small, but it's there.
Jan 08 2010 04:44 pm   #63coalitiongirl
Sosa lola, it's nice to have a pro-Xander perspective on a Spuffy site!

I think that the anti-Core Four attitudes Spuffy writers tend to display originates from the fact that we're all significantly pro-Spike, so we see things from his perspective and judge characters based on how they treat Spike instead of how they really act. (I HATED Buffy after Season 6, until I finally came to terms with the fact that she really did try with the others during the season, just not Spike. There are scenes with her working on her relationship with Willow and Xander, even while she's beating on Spike). So naturally, we leap on the mistakes that the Core Four make while overlooking the ones that Spike, or Anya, or Tara (Okay, Tara doesn't make mistakes :D) might do.

The truth of the matter is that Xander has erred, yes. But the good he's done overshadows it in the show. Of course we're going to attack him for the stupid summoning of an amulet that killed people, but he's not an inherently bad person for it. Maybe he got off easy, but it was a pretty emotional time and I don't think the Scoobies were focusing on that aspect of the episode at all by the end. The whole insane-revelations thing probably distracted them. 

And the hyena thing was really not his fault at all. The one thing Xander has done that bothered me is lying to Buffy before she went to face Angelus in "Becoming," but in retrospect, it was the right thing to do, just like it's the right thing for Buffy not to see humanity in every vampire she faces or she'd never be able to slay them properly.

So yeah, the Scoobies make some mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes people die from them. But how many people blame Buffy for sleeping with Angel and unleashing Angelus? (Never ask this question to a bunch of Spuffy fans. I'm already objecting myself :)) So why should we blame Xander for unknowingly unleashing an evil on Sunnydale, too?

Don't get me wrong- in my eyes, Spike can do no wrong. But it's unfair of us to judge the Core Four so harshly when we're looking through Spike-colored glasses. :D They aren't bad people. They learn from their mistakes, as previous posters pointed out, and their mistakes aren't as unusual (in their world) as we might assume.

And I can't believe that I just wrote a defense of Xander. I really dislike him most of the time. :D
 
Jan 09 2010 12:51 am   #64ladycat713 
While Anya and Spike did take longer to feel guilt they were lacking that harped up soul that was supposed to make them feel guilt wheras Willow, Buffy and Xander were supposed to be the good buys and had that soul.If they're gonna harp on the soul as the difference between good and evil they have to make sure that it's shown there is a difference.

Spike was a predator and humans are his prey, when he's killing people for food he's doing his set place in life just like when Anya is granting vengeance wishes that backfire on the wisher. They are both being what they are supposed to be. The fact that they felt guilt and went outside of thier definition  when they are supposed to be evil to is massive. The Scoobies (especially Buffy) are supposed to be good but by they do such great wrongs and don't seem to feel guilt over them. Like when Tara found out Willow messed with her mind and gave her another chance, she didn't seem to get that she did wrong as evidenced by her quickly casting another spell. She only seemed upset that she was caught and could (and then did) lose Tara because of it.

And while Xander's hyena possession behavior wasn't his fault, by letting him pretend that there was amnesia Giles didn't let them deal with and grow from the experience. I firmly believe if Xander had asked for forgiveness and said he was ashamed of his behavior it would've helped him mature. Just burying things does nobody any good.

You can say Xander didn't know that the demon would cause deaths (and really a guy engagged to a vengeance demon should know better than to screw around with amulets) he did know after the first death. There's a scene after the first body is found where Xander is practically begging Giles to tell him that the death isn't connected to the singing and dancing. 

I think the advantage with Satsu is all on Buffy's side. True Satsu gets to sleep with the woman she loves but she's left at the curb and ignored once Buffy's done with her without even a hi as an acknowledgement.

Anya and Spike's mistakes aren't ignored . In fact they are come down hard upon any time they make one by the Scoobies. Even when they don't make one they are put down.

I don't blame Buffy for unleashing Angelus. I blame Angel. He had over a hundred years to find out the details of his curse and did nothing. Even after he regained his soul he's done nothing to find a way to anchor it except hope he'll get the Shanshu.I think he likes that the people around him are a little bit afraid of him all the time.

The only thing I might find possible to blame Buffy for is when she had Angelus dead to rights in the mall she let him go but I can let that slide completely given that she was a young girl in love.

And it's not only that the Scoobies make mistakes that people did from , it's that there seems to be no guilt over the deaths, they blame the magic or demons. The only time you see guilt over a death is when itactually isn't thier fault(like when Potentials were killed ).That's completely backwards.

Having the Scoobies experience consequences to thier actions would make them hesitate to do wrong next time. Maybe if Willow had been punished (instead of having her bake cookies (which isn't evidence of guilt more of a please like me)), when she did the my will be done spell and taken in hand to be taught she wouldn't have been messing with Tara's mind in season 6 .
Jan 09 2010 02:02 am   #65nmcil
The point that I am trying to make is not so much that the Scoobies and Buffy make some very serious errors of judgment, but that the writers and creators of the series not seem to appreciate the "real world" implications for some of the plot devices that are used.    We know that the series is not meant to be interpreted specifically as "real world"  events - but it does, and I am sure it was meant to , reflect things that do happen in the "real world" of the viewers.  If it did not, would most of us still be thinking and discussing the series?  So, IMVHO, to have this "of little consequences or no consequences" treatment for the acts the prime characters do is very questionable.  There were a huge number of young people watching the series and I bet you anything that there were young girls, women and men  who had been raped or sexually abused.  That is the point that I am concerned about.  To say that he was possessed and therefore he is not responsible is like saying "hey, I was drunk" when I tried to... !  Just the same as Angel/Angelus as his "I didn't have soul, therefore I wasn't me," Jenny Calendar didn't kill herself.  

I'm not saying that the series was suppose to censor itself to the point of sheer boring morality studies, or that the characters lack any of the darkness or not make stupid mistakes.  To have powerful and compelling drama and stories, there has to be contrast, stress and contradictions - just saying that  if the prime hero models and characters were not going to suffer many consequences for their actions, that a little more care might have been taken with the plot devices and the stories.  

I can understand that the Angel/Angelus horrific arc was awesome drama and psychological study, but what I really have a hard time with is Buffy and Angel's rationalizations and conceptual premise that his soul, or lack of soul,  is the ultimate defining element for his actions.   Life just isn't that simple. 


  
 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2010 06:37 am   #66ladycat713 
The writers definitely didn't think about the endgame . Especially since they were holding up the Scoobies (Buffy especially) as heroes and role models.

Yet another reason why I prefer fanfiction. The wriers tend to think out the end results better than the show writers. Not to mention less plotholes.

And I never bought the whole it wasn't me I didn't have a soul schtick. They had Darla say that what you are informs what you become and they had a prime example of that in Drusilla. If what you became as a demon had nothing to do with you as a human then Dru wouldn't still be insane as a vampire.Spike was just William with the brakes off, bloodlust and a lot of buried rage.
Jan 09 2010 09:30 am   #67sosa lola


Sosa lola, it's nice to have a pro-Xander perspective on a Spuffy site!

Awww! Thanks :)


 (Okay, Tara doesn't make mistakes :D)

She does. She rips Buffy out of heaven without even questioning Willow's motives, her Willow worship in early S6 led her to be blinded with love and not see Willow's faults, and.... oh, putting the Scoobies under a spell so they won't see the demon side of her in Family. I guess that's about it. Tara is too nice. lol

The truth of the matter is that Xander has erred, yes. But the good he's done overshadows it in the show.

Xander is filled with errors, but like you, I believe the good overshadows it. And by the end of Chosen, he became a very mature young man, and it continues this way in S8.

The one thing Xander has done that bothered me is lying to Buffy before she went to face Angelus in "Becoming,"

Personally, I wish they dealt with this in S3, let it all out in the open. It won't be such a big deal as it is now if they did.

But how many people blame Buffy for sleeping with Angel and unleashing Angelus? (Never ask this question to a bunch of Spuffy fans. I'm already objecting myself :)) So why should we blame Xander for unknowingly unleashing an evil on Sunnydale, too?

I think there difference here is that Buffy felt guilt over the people Angelus killed, while Xander didn't show any guilt over the people his spell killed. I think the writers overlooked that, and I can't stop the feeling that Xander was only picked to be the one summoning Sweet because of the "Does that mean I'm your queen?" joke.  It's kinda like As You Were, when the writers chose Spike to be the Doctor just to make Buffy realize she has to dump him. Xander and Spike were used as plot devices without looking at logic or caring about how their characters would be presented to the viewers. Alas, it's canon, and we're here to fanwank. *wink*

And while Xander's hyena possession behavior wasn't his fault, by letting him pretend that there was amnesia Giles didn't let them deal with and grow from the experience. I firmly believe if Xander had asked for forgiveness and said he was ashamed of his behavior it would've helped him mature.

You're right about it maturing him a little. But it'll also bring unnecessary awkwardness between him and his friends, why go through it when it wasn't his fault in the first place?

wheras Willow, Buffy and Xander were supposed to be the good buys and had that soul.

We all know a soul doesn't mean pure virtue, and like I said, as kids and human at that, Buffy, Xander, and Willow ought to make mistakes. I'm a little confused about Anya, though. Does being a vengeance demon means she's got no soul?

I think the advantage with Satsu is all on Buffy's side. True Satsu gets to sleep with the woman she loves but she's left at the curb and ignored once Buffy's done with her without even a hi as an acknowledgement.

Satsu wasn't ignored. She was promoted and had her own squad, just like she asked.  Satsu was the mature one, asking to be distanced from Buffy because there's no future, Buffy isn't gay. And Buffy saw her point, and agreed to it.

I think Buffy cared and respected Satsu a lot, which is why she was willing to sleep with her.

BUFFY: The fact is, knowing that someone, you know, that someone really cool feels that way about me, it makes me less… little bit less lonely.

SATSU: It was one of the best nights of my life.
We see Buffy in close-up as well as she smiles in return.
BUFFY: Mine too.

Having the Scoobies experience consequences to thier actions would make them hesitate to do wrong next time. Maybe if Willow had been punished

How would you punish her? I mean, her friends understood she was feeling pain and lonliness because of Oz' departure.

Jan 09 2010 10:54 am   #68ladycat713 
I'd punish Willow by making her learn what could've happened and bind her powers until she understands that she just because she can do something doesn't mean she should. She needed lessons! Send her to a coven before she tries to end the world not after!

And getting a promotion from your boss after you've slept with her isn't a good thing. It means you will always have the question over wheter or not you earned it in the battlefield or the bedroom hanging over you . And if someone wants to make a bid for power them they can scruitinize everything you do and point out any little mistake as proof that you were unfairly promoted even if you weren't.

The next time Buffy sees Satsu after her promotion, Buffy completely ignores her and there is a convo between Kennedy and Satsu where Satsu says they sent the only other gay Slayer (can't be possible it's against the odds) to talk to her (apparantly to make sure she knew she wasn't going to get anywhere with Buffy) and Kennedy admits that Buffy led her on.


And I'm more than a bit irritated that Satsu (who Buffy is clearly not in love with and not even orientated to according to her) gets a one of the best nights of my life when Spike (who she said she loved) gets pain and misery . (I'm irritated at Buffy and the writers  not Satsu).

And while things might have been awkward if Xander had admitted he didn't have amnesia they could've worked through it especially considering they are supposed to be such great friends. Just letting things fester underneath the surface didn't do any good for any of them. And who knows maybe if Xander had learned to speak up about the important things he could've admitted his fears about marriage to Anya insteading of the demon summoning disaster.

You're right about the reason for them choosing Xander to be the summoner and making Spike the Doctor in AYW. They could've had one of the Trio be the summoner except then they wouldn't have the obligatory Dawn kidnapping. The Doctor thing sounds like a giant frame job by Riley especially since it seems unlikely that Spike would use the name Doctor after Doc cut Dawn and the who international arms dealer thing was a stupid plot point.

Another not well thought out plot point was the Angel epi where the actress drugged him and he suppossedly became Angelus but when the drugs wore off he was back to normal. Either he's the world's meanest drugged person or all you would have had to do to return his soul when he lost it was to make him unhappy, maybe by kicking in the genitals Hard! The only thing I liked about that epi was what Cordy did to him especially when she wouldn't untie him because he had insulted her.


Jan 09 2010 08:35 pm   #69nmcil
Maybe the Angel/Angelus "happy drug" theme will show up in the finale of Buffy Season Eight - Angel/Angelus mental projections or doppelganger/clone transformed into Twilight/Angel/Angelus. 

Bring in Head Hero Boy from LA and the IDW franchise has really got to be done extremely well and bring a logical resolution - when all the dust settles and dreams, hope and fears are battle against - Angel/Angeles, and the other characters that will remain still have to be viable either as the hero models or transformed into other Parsons.  Since Angel/Angelus is still going to be happening over at IDW, he has to still be able to serve his function as Angel/Angelus.  Apparently Joss Whedon will eventually coalesce both comic projects into a final phase that encompasses all that has happened in both The Slayers phase and Angel After the Fall and LA After the Return. 

I hope that the final phase of Buffy Season Eight does continue with the theme and question that always followed Angel/Angelus around in LA and with W&H and The Senior Partners - what side would Angel/Angelus fight on in the Mother  Apocalypse. 

Who knows, maybe if the Queen Elizabeth Power struggle metaphor does show up,  William of Orange and James the son will come into the power struggle and story in some strange  mirror world way. 

Good observations on Buffy and Satsu - the relationship and reaching out to her from Buffy's loneliness is a very human thing - it may have been a very poor choice, but it is certainly and understandable one from the emotional treatment that has been given the Buffy's character and that  continues to plague Buffy.  I don't myself think that is was the right thing to do, but I can understand that she did.  But it feels like a lot like the same "I will use you to make myself feel better" - only that Satsu was lucky and did not get the treatment that Spike-Buffy sexual encounters became.  The two cases are certainly not the same, Spike-Buffy was the extreme inner demon battle, the all out fight and trauma struggle.   Buffy-Satsu was more like desperate moment of rest.  And so right about Satsu being the adult in their encounter. 

Think the next issue comes out very soon, next week I think -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 10 2010 08:17 am   #70sosa lola

What do you guys think about the new spoilers? Did you find out who Twilight is?

I'd punish Willow by making her learn what could've happened and bind her powers until she understands that she just because she can do something doesn't mean she should. She needed lessons! Send her to a coven before she tries to end the world not after!

By this point of the series, I don't think they anticipated the seriousness of the problem, I didn't either. It was Willow feeling so much pain because of Oz' departure and reacting badly. To be honest, she seemed to have learned from that mistake in S4. She never did a bad spell on her own, she started to go down that road again in S5 or maybe S6.

And I'm more than a bit irritated that Satsu (who Buffy is clearly not in love with and not even orientated to according to her) gets a one of the best nights of my life when Spike (who she said she loved) gets pain and misery . (I'm irritated at Buffy and the writers  not Satsu).

Buffy is a different person with Satsu. She's not the same depressed, hates-myself, just got ripped out of heaven girl. She had matured a little. Besides, when Buffy had slept with Spike, she didn't like or respect him. When she slept with Satsu, she liked and respected her.

they could've worked through it especially considering they are supposed to be such great friends.

Work through what? Buffy and Willow knew it wasn't Xander and they weren't damaged by what happened. The only one who was scared and ashamed was Xander, and Giles helped him by keeping it a secret. If it was Xander who did these things, Giles wouldn't have encouraged him to keep it a secret.

You're right about the reason for them choosing Xander to be the summoner and making Spike the Doctor in AYW.

I don't mind Xander slipping and summoning Sweet. It's human to slip. But I wish they handled it better, with Xander facing the consequences of his actions, maybe Anya getting hurt because of what he had done, something like that. Giles getting angry with him like he did when Xander played with magic in S2.  And maybe have Xander show human emotions of guilt and fear at the news that some people died from what he did. Also, Spike, I don't mind if he's doing evil stuff to get Buffy some money, but seriously, Spike as a big international arms dealer? Since when? Where's the build up?

Jan 10 2010 09:27 am   #71nmcil
I think that each of the characters had to do the action that was going to come back and haunt them - I don't think it was just the Queen Joke, he established both his deep insecurities about their coming marriage but it also established that Xander was not going to deal honestly with himself or Anya.  It is remarkable what the writers felt they could use for plots and leave so many gaps of logic - 

Good points about Buffy's very different perspective regarding Satsu and Spike - but what a profound difference in the emotional quality of those two circumstances - Spike is revealing his soul and totally opening his heart to Buffy - between Buffy and Satsu, that same line is used for nothing more than to describe a only sexual reaction.  Like so many times, the contrast and mirror world quality bring up so much more than the the surface layer. But you also have to remember that Buffy's reaction to Spike, at that moment, was also a huge step forward for her.

I have no idea how Joss Whedon is going to resolve the Buffy-Spike relationship, if he will let it Fade Away to the "move on" transition - that was part of the talk between Angel and Spike in GiQ, but it hardly seems that this could be the end of their story. 

There are some readers of the comics that feel very upset with the complete lack of mention of Spike, but Buffy is mentioned in the Angel comics, and in the Comic Con story,  Angel/Angelus, refers to her as his true love during the fight scene when he contemplates they craziness that is She Spike. 

Angel/Angeles may be brought in as Twilight due to the future infection during Fray timeline - his blood could be what is used to create the infection.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 10 2010 12:54 pm   #72sosa lola
There are some readers of the comics that feel very upset with the complete lack of mention of Spike

BUFFY: People who love me tend to… oh, die… maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on ‘em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there’s something wrong… something with me, or *around* me, or… (A Beautiful Sunset)

ANDREW: Now that I've met Angel, I have to say, Spike was so much edgier, you definitely traded up, I'm totally Team Spike. ( Predators and Prey)

In Retreat, a guy mentions a spike, and both Twilight and Riley go, "Spike?" and Twilight orders the man who mentions the "spike" to be killed. Now that I know who Twilight is, this is actually interesting. lol

(I understand that Buffy not talking about Spike is annoying, I guess it's done on purpose, and we'll get to hear about Spike or see him in S8 soon. I have faith in that.)
Jan 10 2010 06:11 pm   #73nmcil
Fans can get really upset about stuff, but ultimately things do all come together and Joss Whedon always works with his private "big picture"  I suspect that there will be a big divide, or way of keeping Angel/Angelus as a viable hero for IDW  - after all the can't just change that Angel/Angelus character to such a degree that his part in the IDW business would have to be drastically altered.  Unless Joss Whedon, as the executive producer, is working with both companies in that capacity. 

We now know that Twilight was also going to be Angel/Angelus from the very start and all that stuff about NO CROSSOVERS due to business was, IMO, more to simply add to the speculation and to keep the readers excited about the mysterious character - always something behind the surface layer and first curtain with his works.

Maybe this was Buffy's "I still think about it"  (paraphrase)  opening for his continuing saga - his way to give both the fans an homage to the history of his first Buffy Love.  Perhaps his "he is in my heart"  and "no grandchildren"  was also an opening for any future Spike story he wanted to tell.  Spike, was indeed the character that ended up saving the child in NFA. 

I am just really interested to see what Joss Whedon is thinking and saying with his Buffyverse Realm.

Not suggesting in anyway that Elizabeth 1 had a big influence in his model for Buffy - but the more I read about this Queen, who happens to share name with Buffy and whose mother was named Anne - makes for wonderful coincidence.  One thing is sure, that much of their story is similar.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 11 2010 04:16 am   #74nmcil
Thought this would be a very good little bit of reading with all the Buffy-Angel-Twilight  mania going on - It was on the "comments" section at  ChrisRyall blog -



Anonymous
said...

Man get over it. The shows are over !!! The shows have been over for seven and five years. I could care less if Buffy ends up either Spike or Angel at this point. I follow Spike and whoever ends up with as long as he is happy, and Angel is happy who cares. Buffy can just rob banks at this point forever. Really because as much drama that follows those three, I don't see why Spike and Angel just give up chicks, because least with a guy you can drunk and fight it out, then it will be over
Kit

January 9, 2010 10:33 PM

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 11 2010 09:25 am   #75Niori 
Okay, I gotta ask- does it seem extermely odd to anyone else but me that neithr series has any idea of what's happening in the other? I mean, huge world altering stuf is going on (La in hell/made into a move and slayers are bad guys in the media/Harmony has a tv show (I love that btw)) and neither has any clue that the other is going on. I get that Buffy and co are running around Scotland, Tibet and all that (probably somehwere else too), but really, you'd think at least one person would turn on the tv at some point and see a move advertisemnt for 'Last Angel in Hell' (I think that's the Angel movie anyway). I mean, can anyone really see Andrew give up tv, no matter the circumstances?
Jan 11 2010 09:57 am   #76BandS
Infomercials are they too good to be true lmao???  Cuz I so want a magic Bullet LOL...Easy meals Easy Meals!  LOL...

Niore I don't think they really do...which you would think is odd, right?  I don't think there is any mention of Slayers in the Angel series...I mean Spike has mentioned Xander and Andrew...don't recall any other time...and yet no mention of Buffy.  She is actually only said in reference to Spike being Angel in comic # 26, but as said in what Angel would think NOT about Spike.  He never mentions Buffy...she has been referred inadvertently as the girl they fought over.

I find it extremely odd that with both having such publicized television shows done featuring Vampires...you would think the other knew, but no that's not the case...I mean Andrew even says quite bluntly in front of Buffy she traded up with Spike, and he was Team Spike after meeting Angel...yet Buffy says nothing...she sulks at seeing Xander and Dawn kissing.  They have casually mentioned Spike and Angel, but it's like Buffy doesn't even react at all...and now with Angel being Twilight it's being played up now...I'm GLAD Satsu is off elsewhere--SHE deserves better.  Buffy is alone because SHE herself keeps herself from being with anybody else because lets face it...because of Angel.   It's not because of her...it's because of HIM...It's not because she is different.  It's because they wrote her this way and honestly she hasn't had much growth if you think about it.  She shows it in the tv series...the comics?  Not so much...Yeah this Buffy wants things easier and *cough* robs banks *cough says what about her?

So it's not you Niore it is very ODD but then again they are run by two different publishers...so that could be why...

Jan 11 2010 12:26 pm   #77sosa lola
you'd think at least one person would turn on the tv at some point and see a move advertisemnt for 'Last Angel in Hell' (I think that's the Angel movie anyway). I mean, can anyone really see Andrew give up tv, no matter the circumstances?

I remember it was explained in Angel: After the Fall. Someone, don't remember who, turns the TV on the news and LA is fine. No hell whatsoever. And by the end of After the Fall, they were back to Not Fade Away. So, nothing happened, but the memories weren't erased, everybody in LA remembers what had happened.
Jan 11 2010 06:58 pm   #78nmcil
the two series are really working with the timelines - for instance, why did Harmony not end up in Hell along with everyone else - she could not have had time to exit LA before the demon hordes and LA into hell happened.  Last we saw her, she was talking with Angel and just about to leave the building - God, I hate having to do all the re-reads to keep track of things - all these issues and such long periods between them. 

Plus, thinking about the philosophical element of having memories of all that past, while still supposedly having all the physical actions wiped away as if they did not happen.  It's really so interesting, everything is the same and yet utterly different.  What kind of power could be manipulating all this?  Buffy and her Slayers are nothing in the face of this kind of power - Willow is the only one that can even remotely play on this level from Buffy Season Eight.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 11 2010 09:01 pm   #79nmcil
Here is the latest February Q&A from Scot Allie

http://moscow-watcher.livejournal.com/83434.html
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 11 2010 11:28 pm   #80coalitiongirl
 There's a link to the Q&A in moscow-watcher's post, in case people were searching. ;)
Note this particular Q&A (which I'm happy about because it's a real attack on Allie and his anti-Spikeness- of course, he just avoids most of the attack ):

Having the rep of being the biggest Spike/Spuffy hater on the net (nah kidding, you're barely
in the top 20 ;D), do you feel that you've been unfairly attacked? And if so, has this made you resent part of the fandom? 

I mean I could understand becoming frustrated with the constant questions in regard to Spike, a character that's not even in the story yet. And those questions/requests have probably been sent since season8 has started if not before.

I guess I would also want you to see and try to understand it from the other side. On the last season on tv Spike was the male main-character of the show, his hero-journey came full circle in that season, from bigbad to hero. Show ended in 2003, four years after that season 8 finally starts and has been going strong now for 3years. We've had every character show up from Amy, Warren, Oz, Harmony, Riley, Angel, etc. All except Spike, so yeah I do think Spike fans have reasons to be frustrated too. Even if Spike were to show up in the last 2 or 3 issues what's the point? To fight against/with Buffy and then when it's over he skips on back over to IDW?

Thanks for letting me vent.

PS: To answer you question, nah I don't write fanfiction. I leave that to the good people like yourself. ;)




Spoiler: 
Scott Allie: The point of bringing Spike in now will be more clear to you sometime after we bring him in. You guys can't expected to get it yet, because you don't know anything about the story. But Spike occupies a significant place in Buffy's life, and the lives of these other characters. He also occupies a significant place in IDW's publishing line. So not bringing him in from the get go worked for us, but bringing him in eventually was somewhat inevitable. And I hope that down the road a bit you'll agree that bringing him in proves to be meaningful. The landscape for these characters is gonna look different after Season 8, and we're addressing a changing world.
 
Feb 12 2010 12:27 am   #81nmcil
We all know that Spike is planned by IDW to head out Las Vegas way - and might even find friendship and partner up  with the character from Asylum - Beck.  In the last pages of that story she is all over Spike and all about keeping in touch and and making connections in the future - she tells Spike to get his own MySpace so that they can keep up.  Spike tells her that he will definitely check up on her. 

I don't know how DarkHorse thinks that their Big Twiglight Story will not impact how the IDW readers will experience the Angelverse and After the Fall storyline.  Every time I pick up their comics now, I can't help but think of Twangel. 

DarkHorse and Joss Whedon are going to have to come up with a great and really solid storyline to help protect and make sense of the IDW Angelverse - Spike.  Spike continues to have a really large and supportive fan base - as does the Spuffy relationship.  I would so hate to see either company or Joss make the Spuffy relationship into a definite "no show." for the future. 

But I keep thinking of that post on one of the comic forums - and I paraphrase:  It's been years, get over it. (referring to Bangel and Spuffy both)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 13 2010 05:02 am   #82ladycat713 
I still love Spuffy in fanfic  but with what Season 8 canon!Buffy has turned into I don't want her on the same continent as Spike.

I don't think there's any coming back to a character I can like even if they had her possesed by a demon or one of Willow's spells gone awry (like the mass Slayer empowerment sucking her ethics and morals out of her) . Though come to think of it that last one might work.
Feb 13 2010 06:32 am   #83Niori
I never thought I'd ever say this, but I prefer The Girl In Question version of what Buffy was doing post-Chosen, opposed to the comics.
~ Niori ~
Feb 13 2010 12:45 pm   #84ladycat713 
Plenty of fanfic writers have come up with versions of the Girl in Question that make it easier to live with .

We can't say the same about Season 8.

And I never thought I'd say that about TGIQ either.

TalesofSpike's Unfinished Business for instance is a very good one where she's dating the Immortal but not sleeping with him. There's other good examples that run the gamut from her just dating him to find out how to kill him, her sleeping with him because of a spell, her just sleeping with him either for the heck of it because of her lack of ability to deal including one by Holly that had Spike say everything that bugged the heck out of me about the Immortal.
Feb 13 2010 12:49 pm   #85ladycat713 
And while a few of the fanfics post TGIQ  still make me want to smack Buffy there's plenty that don't .
Feb 14 2010 04:56 am   #86nmcil
We have to take into consideration that the Season Eight and post ATF are in very different timelines - I don't know the official time since "Chosen" but it is several years. 

Can you please post the title of the Holly Immortal story - thanks much
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 14 2010 05:11 am   #87Ami
Nmcil...I'm pretty sure that Holly story that talks about the Immortal is "Hallelujah" it's on Elysian Fields and The Spuffy Realm. I just finished it and it's really, really good. :)  And I agree with you ladycat ,everything Spike says is spot on in regards to the Immortal. Tho we have to remember that the Buffy with the Immortal in Rome is a decoy! Buffy so I guess it's all moot anyway. ;)
Feb 14 2010 08:20 am   #88sosa lola
Season Eight starts a year and a half after Chosen, so it starts six months after ATF.
Feb 14 2010 10:30 pm   #89nmcil
thanks for the timeline info - I had the impression that it was a longer time since Dawn was referenced as being at Berkeley  -  Dawn had only started high school during  Season 7 -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 14 2010 10:36 pm   #90coalitiongirl
 I think she was in high school before then (wasn't she around sixteen in S7?), but she started at the new Sunnydale High in S7. There must've been another local high school- where else did all the other high schoolers go after S3?
 
Feb 15 2010 03:07 am   #91ladycat713 
Thogh we now have them saying the Buffy in Rome is a decoy , I'm not the only one who's willing to forget given that season 8 is a complete and utter FUBAR.

Even before things went horribly wrong in season 8 (and that was fast) the decoy thing sat wrong with me. At first I was Yay Buffy isn't with the Immortal. And then I was thinking about some poor girl forced to sublimate her indentity and become a human target and maybe die in the process (which she did) .
 
There's at least one fic (I can't remember the name) that incorporates the decoy in Rome idea but has the decoy be a Buffybot. Why couldn't they have gone with that ? Willow could've used magic to retrieve the plans (like the spell Anya used to try to retreive her amulet in Dopplegangland) and rebuilt a few of them.

The supplies to build it couldn't have been too expensive to get given that Warren was able to build April on his own using what was available to him and I got the impression his family was middle class not wealthy so he couldn't have had to pay a lot for the supplies.

I'm perfectly willing to discount the comics entirely as an alternate universe. After all there were Buffy comics before the series was over and you don't see them being counted as canon.
Feb 15 2010 06:35 am   #92nmcil
This is from "Lessons" the season opener - I got the impression that Dawn only started her high school years -


BUFFY
: My sister's about to go to the same high school that tried to kill me for three years. I can't change districts, I can't afford private school, and I can't begin to prepare for what could possibly come out of there. So, peachy with a side of keen, that would be me.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 15 2010 07:31 am   #93Niori
Yeah, but wasn't Dawn 14 in season five? Maybe it's not the same in California, but high school starts at grade nine here, which is around fifteen. So in theory, when the new school opened, Dawn would have been sixteen and in grade ten, either her first or second year of high school (I know some places high school starts at grade ten). Though, if the comics are a year and a half post Chosen, Dawn being in university doesn't make sense, unless Dawn graduated a semester early.
~ Niori ~
Feb 15 2010 07:45 am   #94coalitiongirl
 I think Dawn's birthday is in the summer, so she should have started ninth grade in the fifth season? Idk, I think I was thirteen when I started high school and my birthday's in October, so that should work out...I've got a few friends in LA who also started school around then, so if that's an indicator, Dawn should have been in high school from the first time we saw her.

Anyway, that would make her in tenth grade in S6, eleventh in S7, twelfth during the in-between time, and in uni in the comics (although how she didn't have to repeat eleventh with the whole non-existent school thing is a mystery to me. I guess if you're capable of translating ancient Sumerian for fun, you can skip a grade, too). 

What seems logical to me about the schools is that after SunnyD High burnt down, all the students from that school were moved into various other schools in nearby districts. Once it was rebuilt, though, Dawn was forced to return there in S7
 
Feb 15 2010 09:11 am   #95sosa lola
Dawn was in ninth grade in season five. The line in "All the Way" that indicates she's a freshman seems like a continuity error, since she says she's in ninth grade in season five, and she's the right age for it (fourteen when the year begins). If she were a fifteen year old freshman in season six, that would be very odd, given the general age cut-offs for entering school. Unless she had to repeat freshman year (which I think they'd have mentioned), she would have been a sophomore in season six, a junior in season seven, and a senior in 2003-04, starting college in fall 2004.
Feb 15 2010 08:15 pm   #96nmcil
"BUFFY: My sister's about to go to the same high school that tried to kill me for three years. I can't change districts, I can't afford private school, and I can't begin to prepare for what could possibly come out of there. So, peachy with a side of keen, that would be me."

This is me being too literal and taking "about to go" as she is just starting high school - which is wrong since she does stated in ATW that she is starting her freshman year. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 19 2010 06:23 pm   #97Niori
I know it's been stated before and probably will be again, but holy crap does the depictions of the characters suck in the comics. I was just checking out the previews on Slayalive, and the page they had up for 33, Buffy looks all of eight (opposed to the twelve we've all been pegging her at)- they have her in pig tails and a frily little top. It's like they're trying to make her look like a child.
~ Niori ~
Feb 19 2010 07:31 pm   #98sosa lola
I thought Buffy's expression in the last panel very well drawn, the emotions in her face were perfect. As for the pig tails, didn't she wear her hair like that in the beginning of Smashed? I think it's cute.

I do agree that some of Jeanty's drawning isn't good, his best work was in the early issues. But, man, does he draw those emotions perfectly on the characters faces. He brings them to life.
Feb 19 2010 10:32 pm   #99Ami
Niori can you post a link for #33...I can't seem to find it ,all I see on Slayalive is #32. :)
Feb 19 2010 11:13 pm   #100nmcil
She does wear pigtails for "Smashed" fight discovery scene - think the idea is putting an emmphasis on her "little lost girl" and the contrast of the innocent young girl look and what will happen in the sexual house scene. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 20 2010 04:32 am   #101Niori
http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii339/wenxina/Buffy%20related%20stuff/1265336965.jpg

And oh, the emotions on her facce are great....but she still looks like she's eight. lol
~ Niori ~
Feb 20 2010 05:07 am   #102Ami
Thanx Niori...I saw those before, thought they were for #32? Guess not... ;)

Agree, the emotions are great ,but damn she looks 8. She looks like a little, little girl and I find that disturbing. :sigh: Thought it was bad enough when she looked 12.lol
Feb 20 2010 05:55 am   #103nmcil


Poor Spike - his is still getting the "goofy" treatment in the latest issue from IDW - I will scan and post images for tomorrow.  But I am not giving up on this writer quite yet, I like the Illyria-Angel/Angelus "morals" discussion -  The writer and this issue is getting a lot of negative comments - some readers saying they are more than likely going to be dropping the reading of this cycle - just wait to get the trade issue. 

The artwork from David Messina is really nice - unlike the Jeanty art, he keeps the same style consistent  throughout the issue.  Jeanty primarily goes with the emotions of the character in the most important panels - and he does an outstanding job, particularly when you consider the style that is being used.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 20 2010 12:26 pm   #104ladycat713 
Yep 8 looks to be the right age. And if Xander didn't have the eye patch , he'd look about 14 at the oldest.

And if they're trying to make a return to innocence by making her look even younger than before I think it's a bit late. Buffy was sucking a lot out of these girls even before she starting getting thier powers. For instance that poor girl who was the decoy in Rome  and the lack of ethical structure in the Slayers teaching. Might makes right is not a good thing to teach. It might lead to them doing something like say ousting people off thier own island . And the implied teaching that love is a weakness that lets people exploit you that she taught Satsu and any girl who saw how Buffy just ignored her later was incredibly bad as well.
Feb 21 2010 12:26 am   #105Niori
Poor girl who was decoy in Rome? Hell, don't forget that poor girl who was decoy underground- who died. The one in Rome is terrible (having to give up your identity, etc), but at least she gets to live the high life, instead of dying all alone undreground somewhere because she was supposed to be someone else (out of all the comics, that's pretty much the only one I like, because it was so heartbreaking).
Oh, and besides fighting, I can't honestly think of one postive/good thing these girls HAVE been taught.
~ Niori ~
Feb 21 2010 01:13 am   #106coalitiongirl
 Or maybe they're making her look younger again so that she's closer to Angel's type. :D *tongue planted firmly in cheek*
 
Feb 21 2010 05:14 am   #107Ami
LMAO ! coalitiongirl. But then again you were the one that gave us " How Twilight Won Spike Over", which I just read again cause I feel horrid and needed the laugh. :)
Feb 21 2010 06:03 am   #108coalitiongirl
 Glad to oblige~ :D But of course, that fic would never have happened without these forums... ;)
 
Feb 21 2010 10:16 am   #109ladycat713 
Both girls (the Rome and the underground one sorry she slipped my mind) were put into a situation that they shouldn't have been and it was completely unnecessary. Willow could've built some Buffy bots . Maybe even build some close but not quite Buffybots and have them appear near hot spots Slaying so that the bad guys are never sure where she is.

In fact maybe they should've had one running the army, after all with a robot you can build a system of logic and ethics into it for it to follow. Kind of like the first laws of robotics -Slayer style.
Feb 21 2010 11:10 am   #110Niori
And the saddest part about the decoys? The bad guys found Buffy anyway, and slaughtered a large part of her Slayer army.
~ Niori ~
Feb 21 2010 02:31 pm   #111sosa lola
Or maybe they're making her look younger again so that she's closer to Angel's type. :D

LOL!! Well, considering who Twilight is :D

Speaking of Twilight, Stormwreath wrote some interesting thoughts on Season Eight's Big Bad:

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/99239.html
Feb 21 2010 09:07 pm   #112nmcil
Here is a very good vid by Veiriti over from one of our members over at Buffytube - this was made more as an answer and comment back to Scott Allie and the complete lack of Spike in the Season Eight and the Twangel future covers and comments made that Angel is the best and true love of Buffy (think that was made by Jeanty) - it is well done, IMO, and a nice personal message vid -


http://www.viddler.com/explore/Veiriti/videos/6/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 22 2010 05:36 pm   #113sosa lola
Previews to #33! (I really love the Buffy/Xander friendship! Since they made up in Seeing Red, they started to grow closer and closer.) And interesting how Twilight's real voice was magiced by Amy, until she left, now he can't hide who he really is. Giles' reaction is so interesting.

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=33589
Feb 22 2010 09:17 pm   #114Ami
Thanx sosa for the link...it was good,but I can't stand the fact that they look like kids, especially Buffy. It's like she looks even younger now. :( Even Xander looks like a teenager, and Buffy looks like a 10 yr old,UGH...I don't think Jeanty is a good artist, good with drawing emotion tho. Loved Gile's reaction, but they don't look like the characters either, especially Faith.
The Buffy, Xander friendship is nice, just please, I hope they don't go back to Buffy thinking she's in love with him. Their friendship is what's special IMO. :)
Feb 22 2010 10:08 pm   #115ladycat713 
And all those Slayers deaths were completely unnecessary since Spike closed the Hellmouth, the new Slayers were just killing the Turok Khan individually.

And even if you had the Slayers still at the Hellmouth in Sunnydale , the spell should've been limited to the girls who actually were able to say yes or no to becoming a Slayer.I thought forcing all the unknown girls to become Slayers without giving them a choice was hypocritical given Buffy's years of "whining about the burden of Slayerness" and how she wasn't given a choice.

Not to mention the big rape analagy they made with the original Watchers forcing the girl to become a Slayer . I guess in Buffy land it's all right if a woman does the raping (like Willow did with Tara) .

All those Slayers are bound to cause problems. It's already been seen with Slayers abusing thier powers and using them against humans. The lack of balance and sheer fear of being exterminated could lead normally non agressive demons to take up arms against Slayers. Add to that the fact that Slayer blood could be a powerful boost to vampires as food and for any spells and the Slayers end up empowering thier own foes.
Feb 23 2010 01:38 am   #116nmcil
Since we don't know what the entire issue is going to bring out - we can't make a hard judge based on the preview pages, but I think that Xander is taking too much a "soft side" on the source of Buffy's powers.  To use Dawn's analogy of "The Monkey's Paw" - you don't get something for nothing - and in fact the universe cares nothing for human morals and constructs.   I like the idea of the scythe taking on a life force of its own - that all the power it created in the Potentials conversion is being called back to a source.  Still, I don't think that a good connection or resolution has been put forth about their encounter with the three Tibetan goddesses - because they definitely showed Buffy being zapped in that cycle -  If the death of the Slayers is the only reason that Willow and Buffy were able to defeat those three super powerful goddesses, than there is a big price that has already been paid - Death is essentially what is bringing them victory right now - Talk about the grand reversal of the First Slayer's message about her gift.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 23 2010 07:57 pm   #117ladycat713 
Essentially it's about balance. The price for bringing Buffy back was probably Tara.

A good example of balance in the universe is Pushing Daisies. The charater Emerson explained the part about someone dying if a ex dead person hasn't been retouched and made dead again after 1 minute as "once your ticket's punched , sombody's gotta ride".

It could be the only thing that will keep the Slayers alive is to take away thier powers before death does it for them.