This is one of the few actually scary Buffy shows.  I don't know why, but Joss doesn't often make things actually scary, which is pretty strange. 

Buffy dream - in the first scene, Buffy is dressed up like a cave girl (theme of the season?)  Walsh tells her she's "perfectly safe" and then insists that Riley kiss her.  This is pretty bizarre and follows along with Walsh giving her approval previously.  Riley is a little reluctant, too.  Riley announces that when he kisses her that he'll make the sun go down (metaphor for her death which will follow in the next season?)  He kisses her and everyone disappears.  After Buffy wakes up and class ends, they walk outside and catch each other in lies.  Creepy thoughts for the new boyfriend. 

Too bad Buffy wasn't paying attention to this part of her dream and only focuses on the last part with the chanting girl.  Later Giles says it might be "one of your prophetic dreams."  For once, Giles doesn't disregard Buffy's dreams. 

Lots of interesting combinations in this episode:  Spike and Giles.  Giles actually asks Spike if he's heard of what turns out to be the Gentlemen.  Spike's eating peanut butter and crackers on the couch and the two of them are cranking at each other like a couple of old bachelors.  Willow gets introduced to Tara.  Willow argues with the Wiccas.  Xander and Anya are arguing, which Spike enjoys.  Spike and Xander argue.

Girl sex:  The girls are making the moves in this ep.  Olivia cuts off the small talk to kiss Giles.  Tara grabs Willow's hand to strengthen her spell.  Anya does her charming hand signal after Xander beats up Spike.  Buffy holds up her face in obvious invitation, but Riley doesn't notice that she's angling for a kiss.  Olivia wakes up in the middle of the night (Giles not keeping up in the bedroom department?) and is the first to see the Gentlemen. 

Phones and technology communications:  Xander has a cool phone you can see thru; Buffy and Willow have a "princess" phone", Giles has an imitation old-fashioned phone; Riley tries to talk to the computer, but can't because he's lost his voice and Walsh has a type and talk computer which sounds very creepy.

The Initiative - this ep sets them up to look good.  Walsh tells the boys to get out there and keep everything safe.  Riley has a great fight scene in the bell tower and saves  the day by breaking the little box with his stick, eventually.  (Sex symbol there for you Freudians.) Riley is shown to be more of a peacemaker than Buffy.  When he sees two guys fighting on the street, he pulls them apart and tries to call them down.  Buffy breaks one of their arms. 

I personally vote that the gentlemen are the creepiest things to ever appear on television. Possibly just the creepiest things ever. I had nightmares for weeks after first seeing this episode.

I agree with the fact that Buffy only focusses on a small part of her dream... perhaps embarrassed about the crucial featured appearance by Riley which she doesn't mention. It's the same in 'Intervention' when she focusses on the 'Death is your Gift' part and ignores all the actually helpful part: 'Love is pain and the slayer forges strength from pain. Love. Give. Forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. For it will bring you to your gift.'

I loved the cosiness of the Spike & Giles interaction - 'The Odd Couple' indeed - and I thought it signalled a growing acceptance of Spike for the rest of the season. Sadly not.

As you say, Spikez-tart, at this point it appears that the Initiative are the good guys, and I have always been uncomfortable about the way Buffy oh - so - casually broke that chap's wrist. It harks back to earlier seasons (can't remember off hand which episode) when Xander goes to deal with someone as the situation needs a non-violent solution... prompting Buffy to protest petulantly she doesn't always use violence as a first-choice reaction... when of course in fact she does so, more and more frequently.

As to the fight in the belltower when their respective secrets are revealed, I thought it demonstrated just how badly they worked together, with Riley completely out of tune with Buffy's body language. Once again I got it all wrong as instead of them both concluding they didn't suit each other and breaking up to make way for Spuffiness, they became even closer... until it eventually became clear to the viewers (and eventually the writers) that they simply had no chemistry and the relationship was doomed (as Buffy, perceptive for once, had tried to point out before she allowed herself to be persuaded).

I was also freaked out by the Gentlemen... IMHO second only to the Kindestod (Killed by death) in creepiness.

I never saw the Initiative as "the good guys" - when you take in the little scenes that give a much darker side to their operations - 1.  their quarantine procedures which Willow would have become part of had Riley not aborted the capture of 17. 2.  the security containment procedures in this episode and the gas that flows into the elevator. 

That dream that Buffy had should really have been important to her, instead she actually flirts with Riley and tells his that he played a good cameo in her dream.  While they all three are making a joke about her falling asleep, it was a Slayer dream - more like a combination of Slayer dream and Buffy inner dreamscape of needs and desire - which has been the theme with Walsh lectures from the start; the primal needs, wants and desires.

WALSH: So this is what it is.. talking about communication talking about language... not the same thing. It's about inspiration... Not the idea, but the moment before the idea when its total When it blossoms in your mind and connects to everything It's about the thoughts and experiences that we don't have a word for. A demonstration. Buffy, Summers, come on down to the front here. A typical college girl, one assumes. (to Buffy) Lie down on my desk

Since this is Buffy's dreamscape but also Walsh's voice/lecture - what are some thoughts on this "inspiration" theme with a Buffy-Riley romantic relationship.  Buffy clearly is desirous of becoming involved romantically with Riley - but from a "dreamscape" perspective and the "sun going down" - the connection that I think of is Angel/Angelus.   What possible link could their be with how she has seen Riley thus far, as exactly the answer to her getting out of the dark and nighttime with her Angel/Angelus love - Riley is suppose to be her daytime love in life.

BUFFY: Fortune favors the brave. Do you hear that?

What is Buffy thinking and how will this connect in their relationship?  When they have lost all the words that presumably "get in the way"  their babble fest - It is Riley and not Buffy that takes that kiss - as a matter of fact when they are first shown as wanting to take their first kiss, it is Buffy that totally stops their kissing - in complete opposition to the "fortune favors the brave."  Of course later in the episodes, it is Riley again who insists that they go forward, and not be afraid of taking a chance.  Good point from All4Spike about the similarity between this dreamscape dynamics about love and her gift as in "Intervention."   Buffy is still so effected by her history with Angel/Angelus. 

You have to love the Giles - Spike treatment in these first episodes - pity that they could not stay in this more "accepting" mode later in the series. 

What do you think - was the use of The Gentlemen and the taking of hearts and not being able to connect on the most fundamental ways potentially a metaphor for the future for Riley and Buffy? 

Has anyone read or hear speak by any of the writers about the plan for Buffy and Riley - why was Riley important in her life at this point?

When I kiss you the sun will go down - When I kiss you I want to die (Angel) and  (something else re Spike that I can't remember - come into the dark with me)  Buffy's real relationships are always love-death oriented.  To love is to die, to got into the darkness.

Has anyone read or hear speak by any of the writers about the plan for Buffy and Riley  - Jane Espenson did some whining that Riley was a good guy and he really deserved to have Buffy.  Sure, Jane.  Keep telling yourself that.  Riley served two purposes - 1- to destroy Buffy's cozy little dream that her life could be normal and 2 - to provide a triangle with Spike and all the attendent angst that goes with that.

The Gentlemen, and the taking of hearts  - Riley is a gentlemen and he tells Willow that he's going to rip Buffy's heart out.  Hm.

Riley is suppose to be her daytime love in life - Interesting that Buffy sucks him into the darkness as Spike sucks her into the darkness. 

Walsh/Riley/Buffy - Walsh's interference in Buffy and Riley's relationship is really creepy.

Riley/Buffy love theme - I think their music theme is introduced in this episode.  It's a very beautiful piece.  Spike and Buffy also had a theme, but I don't think it gets used much after their first sex scene.  I wish we could have DVD's that just played the music without the dialog so you could focus on it more.  It's all excellent.

Yes, this is the first ep with the Buffy/Riley theme music. They talk about it in the special feature for the the ep. creation.

There are a bunch of things to smash on the table and Buffy's first direction is vague - she just indicates "smash". Riley, not being in on any of the Gentlemen info from Giles, has to guess. Buffy mimes the box lid opening and he gets it instantly. The bit was done for comedy.

The writers liked Riley (And Marc's a nice guy, from all I've heard.). So what? I didn't have a problem with him, either. I like to let a show take me along for the ride and not try to impose my will upon it for ships I might like, so I didn't get into the Spuffy potential until Spike fell in love, and then it's more that I sympathized with him having unrequited feelings. Riley was just out of his depth in the whole supernatural thing. It wasn't Good or Bad, it just Was. He was a very keen observer, though. Things he often said to Buffy were right on about her character. But she wasn't IN love with him. It happens. It's not Riley's fault or Spike's fault or Buffy's fault.......it was a learning experince. 1. Buffy needed to learn how to delegate time and attention to the people in her life that she cared about. It isn't easy and is something that has to be learned, but when you love people, you learn. 2. Having the stability of the nice guy did heal her from Angel, and that's good! Knowing all the guys that are out there, she could've done a LOT worse than Riley in rebounding from Angel. 3. The focus of Buffy's outlook is pretty gloomy, and doesn't get better.......unfortunately. Dying squashed any hope that she might have turned the frown upside-down with some rest and contemplation. Riley focused on life. Buffy focused on death - to the point, as mentioned above, of only taking "Death is your gift" as the advice to dwell on.

I've known people who had a crappy life, as far as situations around them, but their outlook and mentality was still positive. They were inspirational, and very good at remembering the blessings they did have. Buffy is SO focussed on Loss and Death, she sucks all the Life out of life. Anybody a Star Trek Next Gen fan? I keep thinking of the ep when Dr. Crusher gets caught in the warp bubble, and because she was thinking about the loss of a close friend at the time, the reality in the warp bubble was shrinking because of her outlook. People started disappearing, and then the world around her did. She got rescued at the end, obviously, but the ep made a good point - when all you focus on are negatives, negatives are what you'll get and see. Buffy could have turned out amazing if she'd seen this and tried to learn it, instead of poo-pooing it every time someone tried to tell her.

Love. Give. Forgive. Risk the pain. - Words we all should remember in life.

I like to let a show take me along for the ride and not try to impose my will upon it for ships I might like - And wasn't the Spike falling in love with Buffy all the more exciting because Riley was in in his way?  I'm willing to forgive Riley for everything because we got that great scene of him catching Spike sniffing Buffy's sweater and stealing her underpants, and the scene where Riley comes to "almost" kill Spike for ratting him out and they end up sharing a drink, not to mention Spike standing outside Buffy's window and listening to the two of them have sex. 

*nods* As much as I love my Spuffy, I was always right there with Buffy no matter where she was in her love life. Only when Spike was locked out did I begin to feel for him.  Loved the scene with he and Riley drinking together and commiserating with each other because Buffy didn't love either one of them.

I watched this very scene today and was reminded once again how Buffy's life so often is controlled by the men that surround her.  Riley, I detest him in that scene with Spike and the cold hearted cruelty that he displays when he strikes that stake into Spike.  But what a great metaphor for the transition of Riley's failed love relationship onto the new player in her Love Mind Field.   And again, kudos to the set and art department of this series - wonderful how the posters in the alley of the Vamp Drinking House reflects the getting and giving of knowledge with the use of "Mentor" -  Spike is trying to give knowledge to Buffy about Riley, Riley is giving knowledge to Buffy about herself and Xander's big "go after him speech" is giving knowledge to Buffy about love. 

Xander giving Buffy that speech about Riley and Love and how she is throwing away the one that comes along once in a life time.  What, IMO, one should remember about this scene is that they are coming from the man who is himself hiding from his own truth - his own doubts and fears about Anya and his connecting himself to the woman he loves.  Xander is hiding his own doubts and insecurities just as much as he claims that Buffy is trying to hide from dealing with her problems with Riley.  

Xander's speech sounds great and wise and filled with good Buffy Fix Your Life Advice, but for me it falls apart because, IMVHO, he fails to understand just how serious a problem Slayer Buffy becomes in how Riley reacts to their life together.  It is Riley's insecurity and unresolved problems with Angel and Dracula that send him to "get even"  to the vamp house.   There is something fundamentally out of balance in their relationship if Riley feels that he needs to "get even"  -  What would Buffy have to do to satisfy Riley's needs in the relationship?   What about all that "I've never opened myself to anyone like I have to you" talk they had - does Riley demand or expect too much from her?  He uses very interesting words about how he feels with the vamp girls  

I wouldn't call it getting even........he was trying to understand why vamps seemed to have more allure to her than he did. He's also without a purpose, other than being Buffy's cuddle buddy when she'll actually let him. He needed to be needed.......nothing wrong with that. The problem comes in how he doesn't tell Buffy in plain English what he's feeling. Granted, he had to feel really conflicted about trying to do that once Joyce is sick....he wouldn't want to dump more on Buffy's shoulders, but he still needs connection, too. Think about it.......he's lonely. He has Buffy and Xander - that's it. For a guy that had a whole unit of friends, a job he loved, a future path that seemed set, etc. etc., being down to 2 friends and no job but The Mission's Boyfriend.......ouch. If Buffy had viewed him as a partner, an equal, told him "I love you" just once, he would have weathered the rough time as long as it took. She didn't. The "in love" feeling had already slipped away for her. He became a Mr. Gordo replacement to cuddle at night and make her feel safe.

When Xander makes that speech, he's talking to himself just as much as Buffy.....probably more. It doesn't really matter if he doesn't have all the inside insight on Buffy's relationship......the words themselves are good advice, and something she never would have thought about for ANY man. Buffy gets defensive and pulls into herself when she 1, doesn't want to admit she might have had fault, and 2, thinks she's a target for pain again. Xander's speech is just as much about being open to Love, period, as not being too quick to dismiss a year with Riley that was more good for her than not.

With the fake staking, I probably would've been more upset with Riley if Spike had been. I can't hold a grudge a character doesn't. Spike understood, which is why and how they can sit, commiserate, and share the bottle. It was a last-ditch effort on Riley's part to attack the "competition" and do something active about his status with Buffy in an easier way than trying to have a very hard talk with her about his feelings. Riley probably knew and feared that if he and Buffy had that full honest talk, the relationship would end. They'd both realize and see they weren't on the same page anymore, so going after Spike is a way that Riley can act without pain. If Spike had been human, he would have punched him, instead. It's all very Male. Riley still tries to explain to Buffy later, when he tells her he has the Army offer, but she's too defensive at that time to get what he's really conveying. The Talk comes too late. Around the time of "The Replacement" would've been better, when he's first willing to admit Buffy doesn't love him out loud (to Xander).

He's also without a purpose, other than being Buffy's cuddle buddy ...he's lonely   Okay you're making me feel sorry for Riley and I don't wanna.  You don't like being the mission's boyfriend - good, get something going for yourself instead of playing basketball all afternoon with the other slackers.  You want to be needed - don't kill off that cute little vampire girl, Sandy, who wasn't hurting anybody, just cause you're in a bad mood.  You're girlfriend's a bonehead - tell her what's on your mind or dump her, but don't have sex with her then go sneaking out in the middle of the night to the local whorehouse.  I admit he's lonely. 

Hijacking this forum further, I have to say that the fight Buffy has in the alley right before Xander catches up to her and lays that sorry ass load of crap on her was Supremo!  When she killed Riley's ugly little vamp whore, she stepped into the big and possibly bad leagues as well.  Loved it.  Xander and Buffy's "conversation" started out pretty well, full of nastiness and angst, where Buffy fronts him about his relationship with Anya.

CM, gotta say--Riley could have still hit Spike/punched him in the face to get his aggression out.  He didn't have to go out and get a realistic looking stake--that was pretty perverse to me.  And the fact that Spike was okay with it doesn't mean much--Spike at times, if you haven't noticed, can be an idiot.  Spike was okay with a lot of things that he shouldn't have been okay with.

On the flip side, I don't blame/get angry with Xander for his speech to Buffy.  Xander did not have all of the facts, and also, he wasn't totally wrong.  Either way, Buffy knowing what she knew, which was more than Xander in certain respects, didn't have to feel obligated to run after that helicopter.  I think in the interest of fairness, Xander should have given his two cents to Riley as well.  Maybe something could have been worked out.  Eh, okay not really--Riley loved Buffy, but he was pretty much an accessory to her.  They just weren't going to work. It's funny--both Spike and Riley had that in common.  When Buffy wanted them there, it was great.  But when she didn't want them around, they had better get the hell out of Dodge.  In fact, this parallel is show clearly in the opening of "Out of My Mind"--

Oh! I saw that. Looks like neither boy's entirely welcome. You should take him home, Slayer. Make him stay there. I've got knitting needles he can borrow.

Buffy does expect them to wait for her, on her, and do as their told.  She didn't give explicit directions to Riley like she did with Spike in the following season, but the purposely leaving Riley behind thing, and being annoyed when he doesn't stay put, well, says a lot.

Also, I didn't see the point in killing Riley's crack vamp whore.  She was clearly useless as a vamp and not hurting anyone.  I remember seeing that and thinking, "bad form, Buffy."

He uses the stake to warn Spike off.....hitting Spike wouldn't be enough to use as a deterrent. Big deal, you hit a vampire. The stake showed how serious Riley was and that he wasn't going to leave Spike alone because Buffy wants him to/ didn't give orders that he could. It's been a bone of contention between Spike and Riley that Riley has to follow Buffy's cues. Spike has taunted him so much precisely because he thought Buffy had a leash on all her boys and he'd never actually be in danger from it. Riley showed him this time, he was wrong. And being a guy who's also do anything for his lady love, even if it was kinda stupid, Spike understood where Riley was coming from. He felt that same desperation before with Dru.

I'm gonna jump on the fake staking is perverse and not the same as just decking someone.

To me it a bunch of BS with the idea of "understanding" or "excuses" or Spike takes it like a man/vamp - Riley going after Spike with that stake was just plan cruel and inexcusable.  And he threatens him with the real thing if Spike does not play by the rules that Riley demands.  What is Spike suppose to do with Riley under the circumstances - can he defend himself, would Spike take this kind of treatment from him with being controlled by the very organization that Riley belonged to and will go back to.  The only reason, great metaphor aside with the love and stake to the heart that both men share with Buffy, that Riley can get close to Spike is because Spike cannot defend himself.  

And Buffy, so into the rage and darkness, and she is fully aware of what she is doing, how far away from being a Slayer she is in that instance - Buffy, IMO, is sublimating all her anger and hatred, just as she will later with Spike.

And why does Riley think that he has a right to demand and attack Spike?  The person whom he should be speaking to is his love partner - not someone that he sees as a potential rival or just another vamp in the line of vamps in Buffy's life.  It's wrong and just because Spike is a vampire and because Spike can take it and does take it, does not IMO in anyway justify Riley's moral choice.  He is acting just like Buffy is, striking out at a substitute instead of person he is really angry with and feeling pain from.

Spike was most certainly being petty and playing the "one up on you" game with Riley - but he was not wrong in getting the information to Buffy - Riley could so easily have been turned or killed by the vamps -

And the whole one year to get over such a great love that Riley felt for Buffy - pretty quick getting over time in my book.

The point about Xander and his advice that I was trying to make is not that the advice is wrong, but that this advice and manipulation of the incident is coming from a person that is hiding from himself the same problems that he sees with Buffy - you know very well from the episode  during Halloween that Xander is getting himself into something of which he will have a great many doubts and insecurities.   

"Oh! I saw that. Looks like neither boy's entirely welcome. You should take him home, Slayer. Make him stay there. I've got knitting needles he can borrow"

Spike will totally take onto himself the pain and horrors that Riley experiences with Buffy - only he will take them on in such a higher degree.  And BTW, notice how Buffy is wearing the same black-brown clothing combination that, I believe that it may even be the same coat, when she does physically to Spike in the alley as what she does to the vamps - sublimation of all her inner demons and extreme anger.  From the very start of this season Riley and Spike are the counter balance but also on the same path in their love for this woman.   

It's very tempting to see Spike as being totally wrong and manipulative about his telling Buffy that she has a lot of darkness in her, that she belongs in the dark like he does - but Buffy does have a lot of that negative darkness in her soul and heart - how she kills off all those vamps and the one girl vamp clearly is about a lot more than simply protecting herself..

"And the whole one year to get over such a great love that Riley felt for Buffy - pretty quick getting over time in my book."

That's what Sam told Buffy, nmcil, but if you go by the air dates:

'Into the Woods' - 19th December 2000

'As you were' (when Riley tells Buffy he has been married 'almost 4 months') - 26th February 2002.

So if they got married mid to late October 2001 that means that even if Riley met Sam within a few weeks of leaving Sunnydale it had to have been a whirlwind romance for them to be married within 10 months. Not the action of someone hurting after a 'Great Love' even if you consider it as a rebound relationship.... I pity Sam in the period following, particularly if she really does think it took Riley a year to get over Buffy... which meant that she married him even when she knew he was still in love with his previous girlfriend.

This is of course only one of the gaping plot holes in 'As you were' which makes it just about the most nonsensical episode in the whole series... and really does not reflect well on either Buffy (for going to Spike and giving him hope just because she was smarting from Riley popping up with the 'perfect wife' when he was supposed to still be broken-hearted over her and also for believing Riley about the Doctor and eggs without even giving Spike a chance to explain) and Riley (for being a complete pillock in general, oblivious of the effect his reappearance was having on Buffy... unless of course he wanted to rub her face in his ability to move on and snag a 'perfect wife' while her life was so rapidly going down the pan).

Sorry... went off on a bit of a rant there... really really can't stand that episode... even without the whole 'Buffy breaks up with William (the man in him, not the demon) thing... it just makes no sense whatever...

Xander speech - I got the sneaking feeling that Xander was speaking for himself, and not about Anya, but about Buffy as if she'd been keeping him around as her friend and not cutting him loose when she knows she's never going to be romantically interested in him.  

I didn't see the point in killing Riley's crack vamp whore.  She was clearly useless as a vamp and not hurting anyone.  I remember seeing that and thinking, "bad form, Buffy."  It was downright wicked, to which I say - Buffy, You Go Girl!

Riley and fake stake - We aren't surprised that Riley attacks Spike, he cold cocked Parker and he was barely talking to Buffy at that point.  Where did he get that stake anyway?  Down at the local costume shop.  I don't think Spike was okay with getting "staked" so much as he wasn't surprised and he understood all about Riley and his crappy relationship with Buffy.  As far as either of them actually killing the other, it would be pretty impossible.  Buffy would certainly come after the victor.  Spike could have found a way to take out Riley if he'd really wanted to.  I'm not sure why he doesn't except that he doesn't think that will help his case with Buffy.

 I pity Sam in the period following, particularly if she really does think it took Riley a year to get over Buffy - Sam says that for "six months" Riley was pretty broken up.  What kind of love of my life is that?  Angel moped around for five years.  Spike got himself killed then afterwards couldn't bring himself to go see her because he was afraid he still wasn't good enough.  That's obsessive I love you forever love, not gee I sniveled around for a few months and got married.  Also, Riley says he loves his job and he loves his wife - good priorities.  I would feel sorry for Sam but she's a smug bitch, lording it over Buffy with her Tales of the Most Fabulous Wedding Anybody Every Had and trying to butter her up with all that Oh Gee you're the Slayer - you're like Santa Claus.  Jeesh.

Getting over a huge love in your life, a love that meant a huge part of your life in one year?  I was still having dreams about my devoice 8 years later -  I got down to 81 pounds and was unable to read any book of substance for 2 years  -

If Buffy thinks that she was getting over Angel/Angelus in the very short time from his departure and becoming romantically involved with Riley, she really did not know herself or was deparate to hide all those feelings and experiences in her life.  What is the most gut wrenching comments she spews at to Spike after her initiating their stupendous sexual encounter?  One vampire got me hot, you're just convenient."

"Xander speech - I got the sneaking feeling that Xander was speaking for himself, and not about Anya, but about Buffy as if she'd been keeping him around as her friend and not cutting him loose when she knows she's never going to be romantically interested in him"

good point - I have actually never thought of it this way - .  

*nods* My first reaction to Riley being married was "already?" And then to hear Sam say how long it took him to get over Buffy when it's been less that a year and he's over, done and moved on and married someone else! That is not love - that's we-might-be-heading-for-a-serious-relationship-if-nothing-gets-in-the-way. Oh wait! It did.  They were  dating steadily and growing very fond of each other, but not love-of-my-life land by any means.

Riley was in love with Buffy, for the first time - anybody remember first love? It's soooooo freakin' intense for you.....right up until the feelings fade because the "feeling" you had was chemical. Which only lasts in the body for a max of 2 years. But, while you're IN it, it feels forever and glorious and intense and I LOVE YOU. Only in hindsight do you see the contrast between First Love and A relationship that builds to last. It's why so many marriages fall apart when the couple gets hitched within 2 years of meeting.........unless they know each other really well and LIKE each other, too, to get past the times they don't "feel" love for their partner, it's going to fall apart.

I don't equate the staking with a punch (to a human) - I was saying the deterrent level was equivalent. How can he really get it across to Spike to stay away from his girl? Since Spike is a vampire and Riley is desperate, he shows he's serious by using the stake. Spike recognizes the desperation when you know your girl is slipping away (Dru much?) and that's why they can sit and drink together afterwards. Do you guys have any idea how many men, especially young men, beat the crap out of each other after finally getting on each other's last nerve, and become good friends, maybe best friends? It's a Male Way of doing things......it works for them, even if we females will never understand it.

Again, Riley knows Spike has been trying to get in between him and Buffy. And at that point, he'd have gone after Spike if Spike had done the same thing without the chip, too, only probably with a real stake. It's down to cavemen fighting over who gets to drag the woman home by her hair. Riley feels threatened by what he can see between Spike and Buffy, or Spike would still be just a pest. He even says "I left reasonable a few exits back".........his actions now aren't calm or rational.....he's desperate and doomed and Spike is the only threat he might have a chance of making go away. What Riley's already done to damage the relationship, he can't change, and he can't change what Buffy's done, either.

I don't condone it, but I very easily understand it. Guys, we can't always judge any character's actions from a distance.....sometimes it requires getting in their head-space. It's very easy to slap a moral judgment from an outside perspective, but these characters had to live it. If we're going to look at actions from a distance, we need to separate our own emotions from it and approach the whole situation clinically and logically. Intent has to go along with the action. (Like with Buffy vs Faith - Joss thinks Buffy is on the okay side because she didn't ultimately kill Faith. But her intent was to murder Faith. The law would judge her on the intent in her heart even though her action wasn't completed.)
Riley's intent isn't to kill Spike - it's to warn him off because Riley sees how this is going down. 1, he and Buffy break up, he leaves town, and Spike has an opening. 2, he and Buffy don't break up, but there's still a lot of strain that Spike can capitalize on, and he will. 3, he and Buffy break up, he doesn't leave town, and gets to watch Spike continue to break down Buffy's defenses, and because there's chemistry between vamp and Slayer, she'll give in and in Riley's eyes, Spike isn't good enough for her ever.   In any scenario, Riley loses, he knows it, and it majorly sucks. If he can get Spike to go away, then at least Buffy has one less problem, even if Riley doesn't.
Spike is EVIL at this point. Sure, he has layers, but has he grown enough to be a good match with Buffy? No, not in an emotional or moral sense. Another year later, and Spike understands her a lot better, though he still doesn't have the finer judgment to do the right thing more often than not.

All good points on Riley and Spike, but what I see is that Riley, within the context of the script, is reacting to Spike and seeing him as a potential rival while Buffy has not given him any reason to think that she has romantic feelings for Spike.  Don't you think that it is Riley's insecurities about his loss of physical powers, his loss of position and definition of his participation and leadership role in the Initiative, he own sense of devaluation of his identity that is the prime motivation.  Spike is no threat to Riley except as a threat that he gives credit to.  If Spike can be seen as a potential threat to his relationship with Buffy, it is because his perceptions of their relationship has already fallen apart.  Remember that Riley talks about Buffy's connections to Dracula and Angel/Angelus, not Spike. 

What is Riley's basis for thinking that Buffy would be susceptible to any move on the part of Spike? 

excerpt from "Into The Woods"

SPIKE: Well ... yeah. But that's not your problem. Even if I wasn't in the picture, you're never gonna be able to hold onto her.

(Riley puts his hand over Spike's hand that is covering the wound. He pushes his hand deeper into it.)

SPIKE: Ow, bloody hell!

RILEY: Maybe I didn't almost kill you enough.

And Spike is correct - , as far as any romantic connection between Buffy and himself,  there is not supporting evidence in the script, outside of the magical spell in FFL, that Buffy has any desire to have Spike replace Riley in her life.

As far as I can see Riley simply was not able on a fundamental level able to accept and deal emotionally with Buffy being the superior in their relationship - sure he talked all the right words and I am sure that he believed them as he spoke them, but in those deepest of places, the places that Maggie Walsh talks about in her lectures - IMVHO, I do not believe that Riley is able to believe and trust in their relationship.  Fact is that both Buffy and Riley made a lot of mistakes and poor choices in their relationship, in the end they come full circle, back to their starting point in "Hush" with their inability to express themselves to each other.  We end up with Buffy telling Dawn :

from "Triangle"

DAWN: It still feels all sudden to me. With him gone where no one can talk to him.

BUFFY: But you never know. Maybe he'll come back. Maybe he'll hate the jungle ... or maybe he'll want to give it another try. I could ... say all the things I didn't get to say

According to Buffy - she totally loved Riley but as is often the case in life - Love Sometimes is just not enough, just ask Spike about how his envy of Riley having Buffy all turned out.

right up until the feelings fade because the "feeling" you had was chemical. - More like the train wreck that happens when you find out what that person is really like. 

CM - good insights.  There's definitely a guy thing going on there that women can only watch and shake their heads at the mystery of it.  The whole scene rings true.  You have no problem believing Riley would hurt Spike and no problem believing that they would share a drink together afterwards.   

Still, you have to ask yourself, why is Riley there, other than to enjoy kicking Spike's ass?  What does he really hope to accomplish?  His relationship with Buffy is already dead because of what he did.  I suppose he's striking out in anger because he knows he's blown it and Spike is handy, but he doesn't come looking for Spike for hours.  Spike even says - what took you? 

Well yeah, he's striking out in anger - but it's not just because Spike is handy. If I remember correctly, Spike was standing right behind Buffy in that doorway. He knows who ratted him out and brought Buffy to the bite house. I'm with Spike - I'm surprised it took him as long as it did to get there. I would have thought that his first move would be to pound on the guy responsible for busting him.

Maybe what took so long was finding the plastic stake to stake Spike with.

Heehee "Damn, where is a plastic stake if you need one?"

Yeah--going over there in anger wouldn't have taken hours--

Riley took his sweet, ever loving time to find an instrument of torture, which isn't the same as going over there for the intent to whoop ass.  Again, that is premeditated, and not standard "manly" anger or whatever.  It was perverse.

And as for Buffy and her intent to murder Faith, well, the only reason she didn't?  Cause Faith didn't die--not because Buffy didn't give it her all.  The court of law would coincide with moral values--she tried to kill that girl, but just failed in her attempt.

" don't condone it, but I very easily understand it. Guys, we can't always judge any character's actions from a distance.....sometimes it requires getting in their head-space. It's very easy to slap a moral judgment from an outside perspective, but these characters had to live it. If we're going to look at actions from a distance, we need to separate our own emotions from it and approach the whole situation clinically and logically. Intent has to go along with the action. (Like with Buffy vs Faith - Joss thinks Buffy is on the okay side because she didn't ultimately kill Faith. But her intent was to murder Faith. The law would judge her on the intent in her heart even though her action wasn't completed.) "


The thing is that this series was all about making the viewers ask questions about the characters and their choices - the characters are the vehicles for those questions.  The reason that people are still writing and having serious discussions about the series is all those questions about the morality, human free will, choices that humans have to live with and make everyday. 

Riley's conduct and choices, that is what is compelling and interesting and what viewers are, IMO, are concerned with - all those hard questions about how these characters react and live within the Buffyverse.  Take your idea with intent - apply that to "Seeing Red" and what happens in that episode.  Spike never went there with the intent to force himself physically on Buffy - he did not go there to force her to admit to having any romantic attachments toward him - but that is exactly what happened. 

Riley made the choice to physically attack Spike, to force a change in his relationship and to strike out against his perceived threat.  That is a moral choice - that not going to Spike to making it crystal clear that if Spike does not leave off from any intentions or actions he will suffer the consequences for those actions.  Riley went their premeditation to inflict physical damage and also makes it clear that he is perfectly willing to kill/stake Spike.  The fact that both men share their ideas and pain over a drink and bottle toss does not compromise the original question of moral choice.  The same as with Spike attempted rape of Buffy and all the mitigating circumstances that contribute to that act - it is still called and seen as "attempted rape."

"Well yeah, he's striking out in anger - but it's not just because Spike is handy. If I remember correctly, Spike was standing right behind Buffy in that doorway. He knows who ratted him out and brought Buffy to the bite house. I'm with Spike - I'm surprised it took him as long as it did to get there. I would have thought that his first move would be to pound on the guy responsible for busting him."

Neither Buffy or Spike took Riley to that vamp drinking house - they are not responsible for Riley's choice.  An extremely important aspect of all this and how it directly, IMVHO, is tied into personal morality and choice and human primal forces is Buffy's warning to the vamps in the alley - it's about the personal choices they all made and the choice to strike out in anger and revenge.

nm - good points.  Spike and Buffy also made choices.  Spike decided he'd take Buffy over to show her what Riley was up to, rather than just tell her.  I know, she wouldn't have believed him, but after the fact he realizes that he hurt her by making her see the show.  Buffy decides to go with Spike without knowing where he's taking her or why.  Since Spike has been known to pull tricks, this is very questionable, but certainly shows that she is already developing feelings or at least a little trust for him.

Buffy/Faith v Spike/Seeing Red.  Buffy picked up a big, nasty knife and went after Faith.  It was premeditated, which makes it extra nasty murder, not manslaughter.  She made a plan ahead of time, found an excellent weapon and went after Faith.  Faith lucked out and survived.  Buffy may have felt a little bad about it later (or maybe not).  Spike blundered over to see Buffy and brought no weapon, had no intent or plan to hurt her, in fact, he planned to apologize to her and things spun out of control.  He even abandoned his coat (The Coat!) which showed that he was on the verge of shedding his evil persona or that he already had.  And, he felt beyond terrible afterwards.

Scarlet, we don't know why Riley was delayed. Considering there could be several possible factors, just because that's how the universe works, we don't know 100% how deep Riley's intent was. He could have done a lot of things before deciding right before he went to Spike's to grab the stake and make it clear to Spike to stay away from Buffy. Not knowing how long he stewed, or didn't, leaves us a little in the dark.

I don't think it's about Buffy's supernatural status at all. The ultimate problem for Riley for months was that she stopped connecting with him on the same emotional level. He tells her he loves her all the time - she never says it. Everybody including Spike is told right away about Joyce - except Riley. As her significant other, that's a major ouch! My boyfriend is the first I tell about serious problems, unless I can't reach him, yet. Riley feels passion for her that drives him crazy.....she's down to stable, reliable, safe, and "kittenish". They're physical a lot still, but for Riley that's not enough, not after a year together. This is a problem about Buffy the Girl. She got complacent and stopped trying to keep him unless he was in trouble. I've said it before - Love is a Verb, meaning you have to keep acting on it to make it work.

Ya know, if the Army made the same offer to him in "Into the Woods", but Riley didn't have the vamp problem that caused the big fight, I can SO see Buffy giving him the "I'm not ready for you to not be here" line. She'd say it with different inflection, since they don't have the same sitch that she and Spike did with the line, but with her lack of declaring clear feeling statements....Something very similar would come out.

Anyway, back to why Spike's a threat - Buffy hasn't said or shown anything overt, but she does have chemistry with Spike. Who's also a vampire. The things that Riley suspects Buffy has real passion for. And he knows Spike has interest and Buffy's vulnerable because of the mom stress. I mentioned before that Riley thinks Spike isn't good enough for Buffy, but he also knows there's a 9/10 chance he's leaving that night and Spike and Buffy have history. He's seen them have clasped hands. He's heard her refuse to stake him repeatedly. He knows Dawn and Joyce are also fairly friendly to Spike. In the wake of Riley leaving, those aren't good thoughts to him. Add all that to Spike being the one that ratted him out..........and he chooses to finally not be the reasonable Boy Scout. Remember that Riley is a keen observer, as well as a Psych major.......trust me, tons of things have been cataloged and examined in his head as examples of Buffy slipping through his fingers combined with ways Spike is evil.

Yeah, he should have asked Buffy point blank a while ago if she loved him, but that's a scary talk to have. How many people would have the guts to bare their soul that much and ask their beloved that they fear doesn't feel the same way to say the painful truth? You'd have closure with the answer, but there's also the pain and loss and immense vulnerability. It's been easier to avoid bringing it up and hope her feelings would change on their own so he won't have to.

Very insightful, CM.

Personally, I don't believe that people can give up a huge part of their lives, a fundamental component that gives meaning and identity to how they sees themselves or what gives meaning to their lives.  Riley has given over that Huge Something that made him happy and gave him that vital sense of purpose that he had with the Initiative.  He gave himself and his life over to Buffy and her world view and mission, but we see in the script that Riley still longs for his connection with his former Initiative life.   Riley had a lot of his own self-identity problems that he brings into their relationship - and those problems are not something that Buffy can fix, he had to fix those for himself.  Riley and Buffy could have talked and talked and talked about his emotional needs and wants, but only Riley can redefine himself and his new life with Buffy.  Only Riley can discard his insecurities about Buffy's past with Angel/Angelus and vampires.  I do think that it is significant that he talks about Angel/Angelus and Dracula as the impetus for starting his vamp drinking.  Isn't this more a  problem/issue with Riley  than a Buffy or potential Spike threat?  

CM:

I don't think it's about Buffy's supernatural status at all. The ultimate problem for Riley for months was that she stopped connecting with him on the same emotional level. 

Either the writers have been playing the viewing audience big time or these two characters have been playing themselves - because what we have coming straight out of  Buffy's mouth  is that she has given and opened herself to Riley MORE THAN SHE HAS WITH ANYONE.

from "Out Of My Mind"

BUFFY: You wanna touch me? I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.

RILEY: Not yet.

BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.

RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.

BUFFY: (angrily) Don't Psych 101 me. (Riley looks away) Not now. Not after everything that ... Nobody has ever known me the way you do. Nobody. (Riley doesn't look at her) I've opened up to you in ways that I've never opened up to ... God, you're just sitting back there thinking that none of this means anything to me.

RILEY: (still not looking at her) I never said that.

BUFFY: (teary-eyed) Because it obviously doesn't mean anything to you. Do you really think so little of me-

RILEY: Buffy.

BUFFY: No! No. Do you think that I spent the last year with you because you had super powers? If that's what I wanted, then I'd be dating Spike. (quietly) Riley, I need you. I need you with me ... and I need you healthy. But if you wanna throw it all away because you don't trust me, then ... (firmly) then I'm still gonna make you go to that doctor.

What has happened between this Buffy and the time of "Into The Woods"  that has made him so vulnerable and needing this "connection and feeling of love?"  How long has it been since they had this talk and confessions about their feelings?  Buffy makes it perfectly clear that "he is the one she wants and loves" -  Buffy cannot make him believe it, Riley has to believe in her and their relationship.  Does Riley actually believe in the depth of her love? 

What are some of the options?

Either Buffy is the biggest clueless most fantasy motivated young women in the entire series
Either Buffy is a great big liar
Either Riley never really finds his own sense of purpose and successful identity after he leaves the Initiative
Either Riley is "the mission" of Buffy's chase after Mr. Joe Normal  and again, Buffy's is totally clueless about how to live and love with the Slayer Life she has been dealt.
Either Riley is caught up in the old cultural perceptions of  "man taking care of his woman and being the provider and care taker of the family unit."
Either Buffy/Slayer has developed into a totally unique woman that does not need any "taking care of"  in the cultural traditions of Riley's world view
Either Buffy has been so damaged from her former love life with Angel/Angelus and no longer is capable of fully giving herself over to a deep love with another person
Either Spike is "right on" that Riley was never going to be "the long haul guy" because neither Buffy or Riley are able to shed their history, cultural connections or their self imposed realities.  

Buffy is the Queen of self-imposed realities and the walls that she builds around herself - Maybe Riley just wanted more than she could give, in spite of her "totally opened" ideas.  Spike being a potential threat to replace Riley is based on his own perceptions, Spike is irrelevant in Buffy's romantic life while Riley is her boy friend - If Buffy would take up with Spike over Riley, that has to do with Buffy and Riley, not anything to do with Spike.  And the whole "ratting him out" and "plastic staking" - had Riley not made his choice to go there, Spike would not have have any "ratting out" to do.

Another interesting layer to this episode is the reversal of stereotypes - Buffy takes on the role of the uber strong, no showing of emotional weakness, caretaker role of a cultural pattern in our society - and Riley, on a limited basis, takes on the female stereotype of wanting and needing an emotional connection in a relationship. 

Hardcore word nmcil. 

CM and NM - many excellent points. 

Riley also knows that when he was first getting to know Buffy, she told him she was going to marry a guy named Spike.  She later claimed it was a joke, but then he finds out that Spike is none other than Hostile17 who she has been running around with and fighting demons with (at the old high school) and who is living with Giles and Xander and who she has been protecting and hiding from the Initiative for weeks, even while she becomes a member of the Initiative herself.  If you assume that Riley tells Buffy that Spike's been in her house stealing her clothes (not clear if he did), Riley sees that she doesn't do anything about it.  She never locks Spike out of the house (until after Riley is gone), even while he's running around with Adam. 

I've opened up to you in ways that I've never opened up to ...  This is pure baloney.  When does Buffy open up to Riley?  It's Spike that she chats with while chasing after her sister and when she wants to know about the deaths of other Slayers.

Riley, I need you. I need you with me ... and I need you healthy.  Which is not exactly I love you forever, is it?  In fact, she's a big emotional sucker.

It's doubtful Riley told Buffy about Spike's pilfering.  She would have said/done something, and she wouldn't have blamed Dawn for the missing clothes in "Crush."

While it's true Buffy never opened up to Riley, Riley didn't open up to her either.  All of his frustrations about his relationship with Buffy is expressed to almost everyone but Buffy.  Why didn't he talk to her?  Or, like some guys have been shown to do in film or television shows, if he felt her slipping away, why not propose to her?  He clearly didn't mind being married, and I'm only talking about being engaged here.

That "relationship" was pretty much made of fail on both ends, and if they both had been honest, they could have avoided all that drama by admitting long ago that they're really just friends with benefits instead of trying to make a fake relationship work.  Think of it--they only gain interest in the other when they get approval (from Willow and Walsh) and Buffy in part to her rebellion from macking on Spike, even if it was just magic.

Hush! "I'm moist and delicious!" "Yeah, you're a nummy treat!" "And don't you forget it!"

Aw, Spander!

LOL, I love that scene.  I had to expand on it and wrote a oneshot a while back, there's just so many possibilities.

That scene has to be one of the Best Spike - Xander exchanges

I had to expand on it and wrote a oneshot a while back, there's just so many possibilities.

Can I read it?


That scene has to be one of the Best Spike - Xander exchanges

What I love the most about it is when Jane confessed that Joss wrote this scene for the Spander fans.

You can find the fiction here:  buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php

It was my first time writing Spander, so it's not great.

If you're interested, this is my take on "Gone" when Xander shows up at Spike's crypt, of course it's after Buffy leaves:  buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php

And here's the sequel, my take on "Entropy."  Spike and Xander get caught on camera instead:  buffy.adultfanfiction.net/story.php

Thank you! I'll check them out over the weekend, maybe send the links to my sister, she reads nothing but Spander, it'll be a nice gift for Christmas.