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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions Doomed and The New Man Jan 03 2010 03:18 am #1Spikez_tart I hesitated to start a thread called Doomed so soon after the New Year, but Buffy must proceed. This whole episode is a downer if you think about it. New Man is a lot more fun. Doomed We start off with Buffy and Riley's chat about Who We Are. Buffy claims she's artistic. Since when? And, we get the whole technology v. Magic theme really going now. Buffy reveals, among other things, that she knows about the Initiative's experiments. Riley doesn't think to ask how she knows about this. He is an oaf.
This is a relief after everybody got Doomed. Buffy looks particularly beautiful in this ep, I think, and the Spike/Giles scenes are very funny. Giles does a great John Cleese riff in the crypt that will become Spike's home. Willow is wearing a sly "As Seen on TV" shirt.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? Thanks for starting the new episode discussion - was hoping we would start up again. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 05 2010 03:02 am #3Spikez_tart I was going to save this for the next ep - but catch the look on Riley's face when he and Buffy are doing the deed. He looks like a moron puppy with his mouth hanging open and his tongue sticking out. Buffy looks pretty weird too when she hits the pillow with her hair all splayed out (perfectly, of course). Look at these: Riley is an oaf. http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/screencaps/069/index.php?id=880 http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/screencaps/069/index.php?id=871 If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? Here is one of the beautiful dvdcaps I made from "Sleeper" - these two were really good together, they played the sex scene, IMO, really well. The actress were terrific with JM and the lighting was beautiful when seen as individual frames - ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 05 2010 06:30 am #5TammyDevil666 Well, that was hardly a sex scene, just a little necking. I'm someone who doesn't like seeing them with another person, so I didn't much care for that scene. It helps knowing that Spike wasn't exactly in control at the time. I could have done without the Buffy/Riley pictures as well...lol! I think Riley is just in awe of her, like he can't believe he's with her. That's what I see, anyway. I just saw "Doomed" today, I love having Buffy back on my TV. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. I;ve meaning to watch the episode for the discussion - have to make a point to watch today for sure. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Finally had a chance to watch episode - it was so nice to see the more friendly interaction between Spike, Xander and Willow. Even with all the snark from Spike, all that horrible hostility from the later seasons was not there. Willow being so nice and concerned about him and Xander - apparently was buying him blood. What a dreadful change it must be for Spike - to actually have to depend on the good grace and charity of his former enemies. I had forgotten how this episode really helped to establish how vulnerable Spike is now in the human world. Again, we see Spike being thrown in the mix as a contrast to Riley - was interesting to see how Spike is so open in his emotions vs all the angst that we see with Buffy and Riley. Had to nice "smiley moment" reading the Season Eight first encounter between Twilight and Buffy today when he tells "but there you were...going on about how hard it is for you and well" This was just what we have in "Doomed" - Buffy going on about how her heart is so vulnerable and there is Riley wanting so hard to be in her life and to fill that fantasy of hers about Mr. Joe Normal. Nice how this episode also established how very different the Initiative and Riley are from how Buffy and her fighters work - same with Spike. The Initiative and Riley operate in a very different mind set. Like how the partnership with Buffy and Riley has now been established, while at the same time Spike continues to be contrast to Riley. What a difference in the treatment of Spike in this era and after his love for Buffy is brought into the series - Xander pulling Spike out of the falling building - nice to see those Kind Moments between them. James Marsters is so excellent in his Spike persona, he even looks like a younger and softer Spike in that attempted staking scene - what is huge difference between this time and the plastic staking that happens with Riley - "Doomed" in love is perfect for both of them. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 06 2010 09:52 pm #8The Enemy of Reality As you said, nmcil, in S4 I found that the treatment of Spike is vastly different that in the later seasons. We see him at Giles' apartment eating Giles' food or in the episode Doomed, we see Willow comfort Spike after the suicide attempt. Even Xander doesn't seem to 'hate' him. Actually it's Spike that plays upon their insecurities. Also, I don't remember Buffy being too mean to Spike... definitely not cruel. I find it interesting that they only start to treat him as a thing after they realize Spike's in love with Buffy. Is it okay for him to want Buffy dead, but loving her is akin to a crime? It really makes me ache when Spike comes into the Magic Box in 'I was made to love you' and everybody is so cruel to him. I remember when I watched Crush for the first time, I actually didn't find the chaining up incident evil or anything. I thought, 'yeah she doesn't listen, so what else was he supposed to do to make her hear him out?'. Back to the IWMTLY, James made a great performance- even though Spike tried to cover it by bravado and excuses that he in fact wasn't in love with Buffy, you could see he was hurt by their treatment of him. JM is skilled with showing the emotions in his face, especially in his eyes. I wish the writers would have developed the relationship between Giles and Spike more, I loved their interaction in 'New Man'. It was hilarious how Giles jumped out of the car to scare Walsh! And definite ew to Buffy straddling Giles, Spikez_tart. Spike was a great character and he had so many possibilities, but when they decided to take Buffy on her "Dark Side" ride, he had to become her shadow, all the things that the character did not want to see in herself, and all things that had to be done to keep Buffy redeemable once they want to change her back to Buffy the Hero Model. Spike could be the Temporary Hero, but he basically had to be The Demon Hero and not morally or spiritually equal to Buffy and her inner circle, the perennial Bad Boy Stereotype until he can cleanse himself through the sacrifice at the altar. How many viewers understood that the symbolism of Spike at the ending of the series placed him above all other characters, in the same spiritual position as the supreme spiritual symbol of the entire Western Christian World - and if you take in the Eastern Religious concept of nirvana, or "letting go of this world" he is right up there in that tradition also. Spike reached a symbolic spiritual place that no other character in the entire series achieved. If you know your Religious Movie trivia, you will know that Buffy said the same thing to Spike as the Magdalene does in "The Last Temptation Of Christ." ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 07 2010 04:06 am #10Spikez_tart If you know your Religious Movie trivia, you will know that Buffy said the same thing to Spike as the Magdalene does in "The Last Temptation Of Christ." Which came first? If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? From the shooting script, this is the whole Xander/Spike scene in the basement. Idiot writers, they shouldn't have cut a thing! INT. XANDER'S BASEMENT - NIGHT (PREVIOUSLY SCENE B) Xander enters from the door at the top of the stairs, wearing his uniform and cap, and finishing a slice of pizza. There's a jaunt in his step, a tune in his heart, the picture of unsuspecting innocence.
Mmm. Too bad you don't eat, Spike. Dropped a sausage and mushroom, and the guy wouldn't take it--
He reaches the bottom of the stairs and freezes. XANDER'S P.O.V. - the room is in huge disarray -- all the damage from earlier, and then some. A mangled ironing board stands in the middle of the room. Clothing lies scattered around, some of it wet. Suds cling to the side of the washer. Detergent is spilled an the floor. The dripping pipe is still evident and the bucket is now full and overflowing. ON XANDER, stunned.
Spike! Place is worse than when left. Didn't even fix the drip.
Then, from behind, he hears an urgent and ominous voice:
Don't turn around.
Spike? What is it? What's happened?
Don't look at me. It's... It's horrible.
Xander turns and sees Spike (we don't yet). He blanches and his expression turns to one of extreme revulsion. It's bad.
(horrified) Oh my god.
SPIKE Now we see him. He's barefoot, wearing cutoffs and one of Xander's Hawaiian shirts.
I shrunk them. My bleeding shirt, trousers...
Spike holds up his regular shirt, now teeny-weeny. Xander can barely contain himself. He bursts out laughing.
Look at you. You have knees! Very white knees!
Spike sits on the sofa, dejected. The cutoffs ride up. He stands back up, tugs them into place.
Damn things keep doing that.
You know I'm not any happier about you wearing my stuff than you are.
That cannot be true. Don't know how you let yourself be seen in this... wanker-wear.
Hey. I'm known as a very sharp dresser.
Xander looks at realizes he's wearing his dopey uniform.
(petulant) Go out. Get me some decent stuff. And I want more blood.
No. You're not a guest. You're a vampire and you have no soul and don't get exactly why we're not making you into Spike-on-a-stick.
Wish you would, if it's gonna be like this.
Spike slams his hand down on the ironing board, breaking it further.
That's my mom's!
How you gonna stop me, you stupid sod? Property damage I can do.
That's it! I am way past through with you. Hate to break it to you, Oh, Impotent One, but you're not the "Big Bad" anymore. You're not even the "Kinda Naughty." You're nothing but a waste of space. My space. And as much as I always got a big laugh watching Buffy kick your shiny, white bum, and as much as I know I could give you a little bum-kicking myself now, I'm here to tell you... (gets in Spike's face) You're not even worth it. (heads up the stairs) I'm outta here. Anybody looking for me, I'll be at Anya's.
Spike calls after him.
(mocking) Fine. Run off to your girlfriend, then. "Oooooh. Spike's so mean to me -- boo hoo hoo..."
(called down) At least I have a girlfriend.
We hear the door SLAM, and with that, the drippy pipe above and behind Spike COMES APART and drenches him in rusty water. He disbelievingly takes in his soaking form for a moment, then lets out a ROAR filled with despair and outrage. Jan 07 2010 08:42 am #12TammyDevil666 Aww, I think I like this exchange a little better. I like that Spike called after him, instead of just standing there like a hurt puppy. You know it's all said out of love, though. Yep, they totally had basement sex...lol! When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. The scene played like a married couple fighting, Xander is the husband working his ass to bring the food and blood, and Spike is the ungrateful housewife that does nothing in the house but complain. I loved the line, "White knees!" LOL!!! I like that Spike called after him, instead of just standing there like a hurt puppy. Oh, YES!! I hate "standing there like a hurt puppy" Spike, and he's supposed to be sarcastic guy. I love the ending with the water bursting on top of him better. Haha! And they totally had chair sex in Hush. *nods* Jan 07 2010 05:49 pm #14TammyDevil666 Yep, put those ropes to good use;) When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. Yep, put those ropes to good use;) Hee! Oh, if you're interested, my friend and I rewrote S4 using screen caps (pic-fic) and made it all about Spander, funny stuff: http://community.livejournal.com/fall_for_sx/199710.html Jan 07 2010 09:46 pm #16TammyDevil666 LOL, those are hilarious. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. NICE JOB with the Xander-Spike - ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Thank you! Uploading all those pics was a pain. Episode Five is my favorite, I'm proud of myself for coming up with the naughty chocolate jokes. lol Jan 08 2010 01:50 pm #19slaymesoftly Too funny, Sosa! That had to be a lot of work. Thanks for sharing! I am not a minion of Evil... I am upper management. If you ever want to tackle another one - I will be happy to help with the graphics - ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Thanks, slaymesoftly *hugs* Thank you, nmcil, some readers suggested I do one with S5 for next year's fall_for_sx, we'll see. There's a cap I've always wanted but couldn't find, it's in Lover's Walk, the one where Spike was coming behind Xander when they were in the lab and grabbing him, I want the cap before he grabs him and the other one the second he grabbed him. Sucks when you don't have a DVD ripper. No problem - I have that excellent Nero and I will get the sequence for you - ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 10 2010 02:55 am #23TammyDevil666 You made me want to write another Spander fiction, sosa, just need to think of what to do. Seeing "Doomed" again has inspired me to do a little something with it;) When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. Thank you, nmcil! *hugs* Yay, I inspired Tammy to write more Spander! I rock! :) Jan 10 2010 08:42 am #25TammyDevil666 LOL, I've wanted to for a while now, just the lack of ideas that has prevented me from doing it. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy. Jan 10 2010 08:03 pm #26Spikez_tart Sosa - I laughed my head off. The screen caps idea was very clever, too. Hope you will do some more with that. If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? I did the dvdcaps for you today - and I will post them at my picasa albums later - will let you know when they are up - did several of the scene for you. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Thanks, Spikez_tart! Saw your comment on LJ! Some folks asked me to do a S5 version, perhaps in next year's fall_for_sx. :) Thank you so much, nmcil! here is the link for "Lover's Walk" - I just went ahead and did bunch from the sequence that way you can pick ones you want - If you need them to be worked on more once you make your selection, let me know and I can do some clean up on them - almost always have to worked on any screencaps that I use. BTW, picasa is a super easy way to do "quick fix" on images if you don't have a graphics program - but you do have to be very careful about how you use it as it does go into your original files - But if you are careful it is an excellent way to view your files and do file management and "quick fix" on big file projects. But you do have to be careful, I once lost hours and hours of work and important image files with one click. Since then, they fixed that potential for catrastophe by sending files to "recycle bin" but still you do have to be careful how you use. But there are also a lot of "fun" things that you can do with picasa. Lover's Walk: http://picasaweb.google.com/nmcil12B/LoverSWalk# ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Thank you, so, so, so, so much!!! *kiss* It must have been such a hard work. I'll see what I can do about picasa, my brother is good with programs, I'll talk to him about it. sosa lola - clean-up makes a big difference on quality of image - don't hesitate to let me know if I can do some work on the images you select - I'm happy to do it. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Thank you, nmcil! I'll let you know as soon as I select those pics :) Anyone have some comments about Giles and his persona as a demon? I positively loved the interaction between Giles/Fyarl especially their scene in the Citroen. That scene tells so much about what Spike's transformation journey - not only about Spike, but how Giles sees Spike and how "the soul theme" is vital to how Giles and his teachings, along with Angel/Angelus' imprint on Buffy, will effect Spike's relationship to such detriment after his declaration of love. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Jan 15 2010 11:12 pm #34Spikez_tart I sometimes think that Giles is more important to Spike's journey than Buffy. Maybe. Their scenes together are always funny and great. Especially when you know about Ripper and compare Giles' misspent youth to what Spike is up to. Giles always seems to expect something more out of Spike than Spike ever manages to deliver. During Giles transformation, he says that he isn't going to give in to his demon because he has a soul and a conscious. It seems he's making a distinction, which doesn't usually happen in the B-verse. Having Spike wreck Giles' old car must be deeply symbolic of something and my brain is too fried to think what - time for Giles' to abandon his hippy cheapskate ways and accept mid-life and that snappy adult car? What does it mean for Spike? Doomed - Buffy and Riley were doomed from Day 1. :) If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? Jan 15 2010 11:42 pm #35Niori So one of the things I love about A New Man (which is hilarious and I love not only b/c the Giles/Spike moments, but b/c Ethen Rayne is awesome) is we have this subtle (or not so much, depending on who you're talking to I guess) moment where there's a counter to the dumbing down of Spike through season four (Iassume that had to do with making him the 'nwe Cordy'). Spike's intellegence shines through when hecan understand Giles. He happens to speak Fyral (too bad we never hear him speak it). Oh, ain regards to Doomed, anyone else notice that the whole Buffy speech to Riley about can't be together and blah blah blah, but then doing it anyways (look how well that worked out), and then Buffy goes and does the same thing to Stasu in the comics? She gives the fI'm flattered but it's not going to happen, and next thing we know they're in bed together (another mistake from the past brought up- sleeping with someone wh you know loves you and having no intention to take it any further than that). Apparently Buffy never learns. If I recall correctly, Spike finally kills Giles poor car, his means of getting around, by being cocky and distracted. Destroying that car works for the wreck that Giles becomes throughout the season with his disconnect and distance from being Buffy's Watcher - Giles literally has No Place To Be or Get To. Spike's life is also a total wreck that he has to learn how to survive. And is that like the ugliest car ever? I love this line: GILES: If you can't find third gear, don't try for third gear! ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. | |||
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