BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Comics Canon or Fanon?

Jan 10 2010 03:57 am   #1Teri579 
I don't read the comics but it's annoying when things pop up that I'm not sure whether the author is making it up for their own story or it's actually in the comics.

I know I'm not the only one to have this problem so I figure I'd open up a thread to for these kinds of questions.

I'll start off with two things I noticed recently:

1) Do Dawn and Xander pair up in the comics cause EEW! One, the guy was always hung up on her older sister and he used to babysit her for peke's sake!

2) Do the Scoobies rob/hack a bank or somehow otherwise illegally obtain a ton of money?
Jan 10 2010 04:52 am   #2nmcil
the anwser is yes to both -

I actually liked the arc that developed their relationship - they first had Xander start a relationship with Renee, one of the young new Slayers, but she was killed during the Dracula and Japanese Vamps arc.  I thought they did a very nice story about how Xander and Dawn get close through all her troubles from her relationship with a demon boy friend in collage named Kenny.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 10 2010 05:13 am   #3TammyDevil666
I haven't read them, but I know way more than I ever wanted to.  In my opinion, season 8 is so completely out of character.  It's just not Buffy to me, I'm happy to pretend they don't exist.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jan 10 2010 07:50 am   #4sosa lola

Joss says it's canon, and when the creator of the whole verse says it is, then, well, it is.

I actually love S8. It moves the characters forwards to new places instead of making them stuck in where we left them off in Chosen and never developing them. It's kinda like when we started the college years and everything changed -the setting, the characters relationships, new characters and Angel and Cordelia leaving.

The first line in S8 is:

BUFFY: The thing about changing the world… once you do it, the world’s all different.

And that's how S8 is, different.

1) Do Dawn and Xander pair up in the comics cause EEW! One, the guy was always hung up on her older sister and he used to babysit her for peke's sake!

The development of this relationship happened really slowly, it was one of S8's best gradual storylines.

2) Do the Scoobies rob/hack a bank or somehow otherwise illegally obtain a ton of money?

Yes, Buffy was under a lot of pressure and she needed the money. Hence the robbing. Willow doesn't like what Buffy had done, but Buffy thinks it's a harmless crime.
 

Jan 10 2010 08:05 am   #5Always_jbj
Joss says it's canon, and when the creator of the whole verse says it is, then, well, it is.

Yep, it is, it's Comic Canon...which doesn't mean that those of us who write BtVS and/or AtS fic need consider it canon. I'm mainly a BtVS writer, so I will often ignore AtS canon (especially as I haven't watched all of it) in favour of following what we know/saw on Buffy.

The bottom line is: each to their own. If you like the comics and consider them canon, then go for it. If you don't, then nobody is going to hold a gun to your head and make you use comic canon.

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Jan 10 2010 09:57 am   #6Abby
I would have to agree with Always on pretty much all of it.  Joss made it so it's canon, but that doesn't mean we have to acknowledge it if we don't want to.  I'm happy to exclude them while others may very well be happy to include them.

One thing to add, though, is that Joss Whedon has said that if the opportunity arose to make a new Buffy movie with the actors, he would be willing to disregard his comics if need be.  In this respect, we could look at the comics as being just one possible reality -- what Joss would do without worrying about actors, etc., versus what he would do with actors in movie format. 

The comics are the official reality at the moment, but who says you or I or any of us can't write a post-Chosen story that follows an entirely different path?
Jan 10 2010 12:37 pm   #7sosa lola
One thing to add, though, is that Joss Whedon has said that if the opportunity arose to make a new Buffy movie with the actors, he would be willing to disregard his comics if need be.  In this respect, we could look at the comics as being just one possible reality -- what Joss would do without worrying about actors, etc., versus what he would do with actors in movie format.

Since a movie, sadly, will never happen, then I guess S8 is the real deal.

but who says you or I or any of us can't write a post-Chosen story that follows an entirely different path?

Fanfic writers can write whatever they want. Heck, I've written so many fics set in S6 that cancelled the canon of S7. It doesn't matter in fanfic. The writer can use whatever canon they want.
Jan 10 2010 05:59 pm   #8Teri579 

The Quote Button isn't working so:

"2) Do the Scoobies rob/hack a bank or somehow otherwise illegally obtain a ton of money?

Yes, Buffy was under a lot of pressure and she needed the money. Hence the robbing. Willow doesn't like what Buffy had done, but Buffy thinks it's a harmless crime."

First of all HUH??? Could some please elaborate more on this? How did Buffy rob a bank, what did she use, how much did she steal, how did she get away with it? IT WAS WRITTEN OFF AS A "HARMLESS" CRIME!?

What the was Joss thinking!?

You see, this is yet another reason why I don't read those stupid comics.
Jan 10 2010 07:39 pm   #9sosa lola
If you're interested, Emmie had written a wonderful fill in the blanks ficlet about why Buffy decided to rob a bank:

http://angearia.livejournal.com/58261.html


IT WAS WRITTEN OFF AS A "HARMLESS" CRIME!?

That's what Buffy thinks. Willow is very disappointed in her, and S8 is about Buffy making mistakes due to a lot of pressure and responsibilities.

Jan 10 2010 07:43 pm   #10slaymesoftly
IMHO, twisting or ignoring the comics and the storyline there is no different than writing a fanfic that begins in season II or III, or whatever and that then changes everything after that.  There is nothing to prevent a fanfic writer from taking off from Chosen and going in a totally different direction than Joss has done.  Or from incorporating bits and pieces of the comics into future fics that take place in a verse more similar to that one.  It's all still fanfic and subject to what the fic writer wants to do with the characters and situations.

Having said that, I would agree that for right now, we have to consider Season 8 as canon.  A summary that says "disregards season 8 comics" or something like that should be sufficient to warn canon-conscious viewers that the fic isn't going to follow it should be sufficient to keep them from being offended.  I suspect there are way more fan fic readers who do NOT follow the comics as there are those who do.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 10 2010 08:18 pm   #11Spikez_tart
IT WAS WRITTEN OFF AS A "HARMLESS" CRIME!?   Even the Buffybot knows better.  She tells a demon to put something back after he smacks in a display window to steal whatever it was.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 10 2010 10:22 pm   #12BandS
IT WAS WRITTEN OFF AS A "HARMLESS" CRIME!?   Even the Buffybot knows better.  She tells a demon to put something back after he smacks in a display window to steal whatever it was.

Well said!  I agree that Season 8 is canon, but as many fan fic writers there are, this season is usually not considered.  I have to wonder about movies to comics or vice versa...They all go to different levels because it couldn't be done with the tv series or movie due to money.  So it's always going to be a money issue that comics eventually take over and take them in a direction that could very well sound ludicrous.

I thought the robbing the bank was some hoax or 'other' Slayers doing this...Now I'm seriously thinking Buffy should never had been resurrected if she can't handle things.  They could have done other things...The council surely had bank accounts?  What the heck?  Damn right the Buffybot knew better!  LOL...

Sadly this is why I am now being turned off from them being canon...because I know people make mistakes out of desperation...but Buffy is going over the top...and everything she said to Spike...makes her a hypocrite.


Jan 11 2010 02:48 am   #13nmcil
As a Whedonverse reader only I like that some of the writers are starting to bring in Season Eight - Is a whole new set of circumstances and themes to explore and for the FF writers to bring  their own perspectives.  Just like how very much I always enjoy Buffy in very different locations and times - I wish more writers would start creating more original characters to use with the Buffyverse that we know from the series and to make new adventures for them away from Sunnydale.   And frankly there are still tons and tons of ways to address the themes and issues from the series.  

If Joss Whedon wants to go "epic" why not the wonderful FF writers also - I wish that more writers would develop the work into a long series and even take on the huge challenge of trying to do a novel length works.  

I feel like with this new year, we are starting the 13th year of The Buffyverse, it's a wonderful opportunity for the FF writers to develop The Buffyverse into new directions.  I wish that some of the writers would take on trying the comic format or start working with the fans that like to do graphics and incorporate more imagery throughout the text.   

We have lost a great many of the excellent early FF writers, but we also have a new branch of  outstanding people that continue creating wonderful and some really outstanding works into the FF community.  I still totally love reading a really good Spuffy piece but now with Xander and Dawn (the relationship thus far has been developed really well, it make a wonderful couple thus far - As a reader, seeing how their friendship and now romance developed, I would love to see FF writers try their own works.  Xander from Season Eight is a much more mature character, seems like a perfect time for all the big Xander fans to start working with him as a prime character of works.  

Joss Whedon and Scott Allie both have stated that eventually everything will coalesce into one Saga, that all the fundamentally important elements will be connected and resolved -  

As much as many of the Spuffy Lovers would like for Buffy to mature more and be able to see the great partner that Spike is for her, frankly the character was still attached to her history with Angel/Angelus, Buffy still had the wounds and apparently they are sill able to bleed. 

I know that many readers like stories to stick with canon, but I think that it is more important to have a good and great story



Joss Whedon can't simply ignore the history that he gave Buffy and Spike together, he created, IMO, the most powerful and compelling relationship between these two characters and I don't think that he can just ignore it - somehow Spike-Buffy has to be dealt with - my only wish is that the speculations about Spike and this other female character, Beck, is not the path that is chosen as a way to attempt some resolution.  If it is, well we still have all the terrific writers working with Spuffy to keep that most interesting and compelling partnership alive. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 11 2010 06:49 pm   #14Scarlet 
It's quite easy to ignore the comics as canon, because it is in an entirely different medium.  There's show canon, which we all know, and then there's comic canon, which is just a small branch of the tree.  I think it's a bit silly to enforce the rule of "canon" onto the comics because it's not as accessible as turning on a television show, and came after the series.  Theoretically, it's a poor man's reboot of the show--a reboot that disappoints many of the show fans.

I'm a fan fic writer, and as many issues as I've had with the show's canon, the comics will never be acknowledged as canon for me.  And while I don't have any concrete numbers, I think the majority of BtVS fans are in favor with me in that respect.

The After the Fall comics were well done, however.
Jan 11 2010 08:59 pm   #15coalitiongirl
In my opinion, the comics (like the original movie) are canon taken with a grain of salt. I tend to pick and choose because there's really so much of it that doesn't fit with everything else, or make sense at all, whether it's Buffy robbing a bank or discrepancies in the movie. I like to accept the early comics, which invalidate "The Girl in Question," but other things are really too much for me (e.g. the almost Buffy/Xander that was going on for a bit.)  But since I don't plan on writing any fics based on it, or denying the rest of its existence, I don't think it really matters what I do or don't accept. I can live in my dreamworld

Although I do wish that there was more Spuffy fanfiction directly based on the comics. There's so much about them that makes us unhappy, and it would be nice to change it like we do the original show.
 
Jan 11 2010 10:23 pm   #16john 
how the heck did buffy manage to rob a bank (and actually get away with it ), i mean if she had willow helping her with both magic and computer stuff that'd be one thing but...
Jan 11 2010 11:20 pm   #17sosa lola
how the heck did buffy manage to rob a bank (and actually get away with it ), i mean if she had willow helping her with both magic and computer stuff that'd be one thing but..

It wasn't Buffy by herself. She had the help of the slayers under her charge -some can use the computers just fine and some practice magic, even though they're obviously not as powerful as Willow.

Although I do wish that there was more Spuffy fanfiction directly based on the comics.

So far, I've seen a few here and there. The most famous and popular would be Emmie's Thought You Should Know.
Jan 12 2010 05:16 am   #18nmcil

Little by Little, the comic season is starting to make entry into FF - it would be hard to do any Spuffy, but it would be a very good challenge for the FF writers - There are Slayers in LA Hell and Spike has run across an Axe or Scythe that looks very similar to the Buffyverse scythe.   Slayer dreams would be an easy way to at least deal with the total lack of mention of Angel and the LA Hell disaster.  

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 16 2010 01:17 pm   #19ladycat713 
I'm firmly in the comics aren't canon. As it is they are almost making me lose my fandom love. I can't look at my friends page on livejournal because of the buffy season 8 ads  make me cringe.
Jan 16 2010 07:41 pm   #20slaymesoftly
 I think the comics will work their way in, but since we're fanfic writers, we'll do what we always do and use what we want to use and go off canon when we want to.  It'll be interesting to see what happens when Angel shows up.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 17 2010 11:48 pm   #21Always_jbj
Ladycat, I have to agree...the comics make me cringe too (and not just because I can't stand comics in general)--the little I have been unfortunate enough to find out about the plotlines via my f'list is enough to make me infinitely glad that I have never liked comics and wasn't tempted to start reading them.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Jan 18 2010 04:00 am   #22nmcil
Here is the New Year 2010 Variant Cover for issue 28 - artwork by Jenny Frison

download the "original size" for hi res printing for those interested - I treated myself to this holiday cover -

Does anyone know if there is a way for us to upload files directly from our computer files - not having to go through a photo image site first?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.