BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Any plotpoints you disliked in Spike's storyline throughout the show?

Mar 02 2007 11:50 am   #1SpikeHot

Was there anything Spike did in the show that you disliked? Some fans hate the attempted rape. Some dislike that Spike went off to kill that woman when he thought his chip stopped working. Some people disliked that Spike shagged Harmony at Angel the show instead of looking for Buffy... and the list go on.

While I disliked most of these things, I think what I really disliked was Spike tying Dru and Buffy up in Crush, threatening to kill Drusilla in order to get Buffy to love him. Not only that it makes Spike look like a pathetic idiot but it also shows him as a betrayor and a very disloyal person. It's one of my least Spike moments so far.

What about you?

Mar 02 2007 12:07 pm   #2Diabola

I have no problem with any of that. I do have a problem with the way he let Buffy string him along though. Love and loyalty is nice and all, but it ought to be earned - and if the other person thinks she's too good to have to earn your loyalty, then you shouldn't prove them right.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Mar 02 2007 12:18 pm   #3SpikeHot

I also disliked how he let Buffy use him like that. I know that love is different in vampire terms, but I wish Spike had more dignity.

Mar 02 2007 12:54 pm   #4LadyYashka

I hate the whole bathroom scene in "Seeing Red." It's not really the attempted rape so much as what went on before hand. Buffy dumped him and then had the gall to act all wounded girlfriend after he slept with Anya. Spike hadn't done anything wrong! Why the hell should he have to apologize? 

I really wish he had just told her, "I'm not your boyfriend. You never would have acknowledged me as your boyfriend anyway, so take your wounded girly act and piss off."

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 02 2007 12:58 pm   #5Diabola
I know that love is different in vampire terms

Ok, lets hope I don't hijack the thread with this, but: Says who? Where in the show does it say that vampires expirience love differently than humans? Cos if it was mentioned, I must have missed it. Some humans (CoW, Scoobies) may think so, but we've never seen anything that verifies their views on the matter - on the other hand, we've seen plenty that proves them wrong. And if this is about vampire-lore again: fanon, fanon, fanon. BtVS contained almost nothing that can be considered vampire-lore, at least not the kind you see in other vampire novels/games/shows. No rules, laws, whatever. The BtVS vamps are not all that different from humans. Yes, they are evil, and they feed from humans, but that's about it.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Mar 02 2007 01:17 pm   #6slaymesoftly

It's easy to dislike any of the scenes where Spike's demon/vampire nature is on display, but I think they were important as reminders of what he was and how far he had come.  Chaining Buffy up was probably in part, a reaction to having Dru standing there when she popped up (plus a bit of embarrassment and anger that she'd been snooping around his "shrine").  Again, vampire - offering to kill Dru probably seemed to him like a legitimate proof of his affection. lol.  Who knows if he actually would have done it - he was ranting and pleading at that point.  I don't know that I took him seriously while he was saying it.

He hesitates before he drinks from the girl Dru kills for him, he has to talk himself into attacking the woman when he thinks the chip has failed - both subtle signs that his nature is changing bit by bit.  I think the writers felt that it was important to emphasize his demon nature from time to time - especially the ones who didn't want Buffy to be with him.  We needed to remember what he was in order to set the stage for how big a deal it was for him to get his soul.

I, personally, would have liked to see him show some more balls from time to time around Buffy- like when he sent her home when she was invisible.  There were little glimpses of self-respect and gumption, but mostly he was "Love's Bitch" - his own description of himself.  That is how the character was written, though, so it made sense. It just wasn't always pleasant to watch.  I choose to think that he probably got a good bit of his own back when the cameras weren't on them....

The Harmony thing probably bothered me more than anything else - but again, the writers had to work around the fact that there was no Buffy with which to resolve things - and, it was Angel's show and she was supposed to be the love of his life, so they would have wanted to keep Spike less heroic and desirable.  They changed his character quite a bit on AtS from what he'd evolved into on BtVS - using him much more often for comic relief.  That was hard to see sometimes, even though he was very funny.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 02 2007 05:29 pm   #7Guest

What bothered me was most was everything after "Beneath You" in season seven.  I mean, Spike was hugging a cross, and Buffy does *Nothing!*  Then, she has the nerve to make fun of him in the very next episode, and use him like a bloodhound.

The fact that he went out and Got a soul, really seemed to mean nothing to her.  I know...I know, she gave that *amazing* act lip- service, but that's exactly what it was, and I think it was trite, to boot, IMHO.

Nothing really changed after that, and something should have.  Some say that Buffy loved him during that season, but I don't see it.

When she finally did say the words, if she meant them, I think it was too little, too late.  It's no wonder Spike let Angel talk him into staying away from Buffy.

FetchingMadScientist

Mar 02 2007 06:57 pm   #8fallen_angel
Some say that Buffy loved him during that season, but I don't see it.

Finally, someone who agrees with me. I liked Spike throughout BtVs but AtS was another story.  I just felt that the Spike in Angel wasn't the sameone from Buffy season 7 but then again I didn't watch much of Angel. I mean AtS was filled with more Angel (I know it was his show) than I can handle in an episode.

It's a secret no one tells
One day it's heaven one day it's hell
And it's no fairytale take it from me
That's the way it's supposed to be

You will fly and you will crawl
God knows even angels fall
No such thing as you lost it all
God knows even angels fall

--Linda Davis

Mar 02 2007 08:17 pm   #9GoldenBuffy

Like others have said, I don't really have a problem with Spike. The whole bit with chaning both Buffy and Dru up, like Patti said, he's a vampire in his mind it made perfect sense. And I guess since I was little I was obssessed with vampires and it made perfect sense to me as well, lol.

I did hate how Spike lost all balls when it came to Buffy though. I hated how he sat back and let her treat him like sh*t. I know he felt her was helping her but still. I enjoyed Angel and Spike together they were funny, but I do see how they tried to chance him, put more focus on Angel. But, hello, fans that came over to Angel after Buffy was over did so for Spike. I mean I stopped watching AtS after season one and then started watching bits and pieces of season five after Spike came back. No mater how hard they try the writers screwed themselves. Spike will always be the true champion no matter how he ended up there.

And the whole Harmony thing after he came back. I just chalk that up to typical horny male. I mean when they get like that I sure they'll go with anyone, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 02 2007 09:21 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis

I enjoyed Spuffy better on paper here in fan fic then I did on the show.  Buffy was a bitch, and I don't blame Spike for any of things he had done or attempted to do (the bot, the bathroom scene, trying to prove himself as an evil vampire when he thought his chip was busted).  Yes, he let Buffy walk all over him, but it wasn't that much different for letting Dru get away with cheating on him all the time- physical (with a coloring of emotional) abuse from Buffy, and extreme emotional abuse from Dru (the cheating, and abandoning him).

And though it doesn't say it directly, vampire love was allegedly different from human love to a degree- Spike mentioned in "Lover's Walk" that Dru must not have cared or loved him that much, because she didn't even bother to "chop of my head or set me on fire-" that would have meant she cared, putting him out of his misery in a violent way.

I started watching Angel in s3, and didn't stop till it was over.  I can honestly say that the Spike and Angel dynamic was the most interesting couple of both shows, and I wish there had been more.  They had the most stable and healthy relationship at the end of the day, and that's a sad commentary considering their two vampires- the humans couldn't do any better (cept for maybe Wes and Fred, but we don't get to see them grow).

As for Spike being a totally different vamp on Angel s5 as opposed to Buffy s7, I totally disagree.  Spike had finally come to terms with the soul and the demon meshing together.  He had no qualms of defending himself, or torturing others to help those he cared about.  He did it in s7 of Buffy (with Wood, and threatening to kill Faith, and I think he was serious about it), and torturing that guy on Angel, ya know "screams, various fluids, and a name" guy.  I still ain't mad at him.

And screwing Harmony- so what?  He had just been made corporeal, and hadn't gotten laid in at least a year.  He was over joyed at being back. Meh.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2007 09:39 pm   #11fallen_angel

 Scarlet Ibis Spike tortured a guy? I had no idea. When I said that Spike was different I mostly meant that in Buffy he was in focus but in Angel, the focus was on Angel and he got to be the hero and stuff. Though there were certain differences but they mostly remimded me of season 4/5 Spike. And I actually like the Spike & Harmony thing. Spike sort of made amends with her, didn't he? I did like the Angel-Spike interaction and I liked Spike and Ilyria(no, not as a couple). They were fun to watch. They should make a Spike show and have Spike, Angel , Andrew, Ilyria and Anya. Spike's love's bitch, we can't change that but that doesn't mean we have to like it. The solution? Read fics where Buffy chases Spike for a change. I know a few good ones.

It's a secret no one tells
One day it's heaven one day it's hell
And it's no fairytale take it from me
That's the way it's supposed to be

You will fly and you will crawl
God knows even angels fall
No such thing as you lost it all
God knows even angels fall

--Linda Davis

Mar 02 2007 09:48 pm   #12Scarlet Ibis

Yup- the torture occured when Fred was dying, and the guy refused to tell what he knew.  Fallen Angel, do you mean Spike got to be the hero on Angel?  I was a little confused on what you wrote there...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2007 10:48 pm   #13fallen_angel

No, I meant Angel got to be the hero. Which is understandable since it's his show. I know I'm not making sense today but I had history exams and brain's exhausted.

It's a secret no one tells
One day it's heaven one day it's hell
And it's no fairytale take it from me
That's the way it's supposed to be

You will fly and you will crawl
God knows even angels fall
No such thing as you lost it all
God knows even angels fall

--Linda Davis

Mar 02 2007 11:05 pm   #14Scarlet Ibis

Actually, they (the writers) always through Spike and Angel together if there was some kind of mission or a fight, and they also point out how Spike is the better champion.  And yet... one didn't overshadow the other. I loved that season.  Curse you, WB execs.  Curse you...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2007 11:31 pm   #15Spikez_tart

Spike didn't always play the whipping boy.  He kicked Buffy out of his crypt when she showed up Invisible Girl and was acting naughty in front of Xander.  Buffy was plenty pissed when that happened, too.   He was plenty snarky, too, whenever Buffy gave him a hard time. 

When Spike beat the daylights out of Robin Wood, it was more or less in self defense.  Really, Spike should have killed Wood since he could never be sure that Wood (and his Buddy in Traitorness Giles) wouldn't come after Spike again.  Right after the fight, you see Spike coming to terms with having a soul but still being strong and able to violent in appropriate circumstances.

I hated the bathroom scene.  Sometimes I think it wasn't justified by what went before (Buffy and Spike having a very violent relationship at all times) and sometimes I think it was motivated (Spike finally being pushed too far and feeling jealous and vindictive and wanting to establish some dominance in the relationship).  It's interesting that after Spike attempted to rape Buffy and she was supposed to be so upset, she never did a disinvite spell.  Spike walked right into the house when he returned from Africa.

I also hated when Spike came back with his soul and he and Buffy and some others were at the Bronze.  Anya realized he had gotten his soul back and Spike starts saying some really nasty stuff to Buffy about her needing another trip up to the balcony, in order to keep Buffy from finding out.  That was just too rude.

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 02 2007 11:45 pm   #16Scarlet Ibis

Sorry, I still can't refer to the bathroom scene as the "attempted rape" scene fully, considering, well, everything.  That was not his intent, and had it been, he would've tried again, even after she pushed him away.  The one time out of a thousand she says "no" and means it, and being the abuser  and tormentor for their entire relationship, I can't help but sympathize with Spike.  Had Buffy been a man, and Spike the woman, we'd all probably would've wanted to kill her or exact some type of revenge for the bulk of season six.  She was just like those guys you see on Maury or whatnot who beat and physically abuse their wives, and there were plenty of times when sexually assaulted him, or did things without asking.

And as for Spike being rude, well, that was just him taking the attention off of himself, he wasn't ready for anyone to know at that point.  And so what if he was rude to Buffy- she needed a stick out of her a$$ anyway.  Xander too, for that matter.  Loved it when he punched him in the face in "Sleeper."

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 01:02 am   #17GoldenBuffy

*nods with Scarlet*

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 03 2007 01:15 am   #18Maggie2

Go Scarlet Go!

About A5:  Was Angel really portrayed as a hero?  He's working for an evil law firm because he made a deal to mind-wipe all of his friends (which Cordy totally calls him on).  He decides to go out with a big bang -- which involves killing a totally innocent person in cold blood (Drogan), risking the lives of his crew and anyone else in downtown LA who runs into the hordes of nasty beasts who come as a result of what he does, and he orders the cold-blooded execution of Lindsey -- and all for what?  To stop the world from going on the way it normally does.  Yes, they always have Angel in the hero-posture, dominating the screen and all of that.  But what they show him doing is all really very morally bankrupt.  Compare that to Spike's selfless and glorious sacrifice in The Chosen.

And the writers did acknowledge Spike's essential superiority to Angel when they realized that there was no way they could justify having Angel beating Spike in the fight over the destiny cup.  Spike won that battle because he's the true hero.  All the rest of the stuff that made Spike look lesser than Angel is just window-dressing.  The big theme of the season was that appearances don't match reality.

Mar 03 2007 02:13 am   #19Scarlet Ibis

lol, thanks guys

Maggie, you're right.  Angel did start a war that wasn't necessary. However, the writers were pretty much backed into a corner to be fair- they needed a big fight to end all fights for the series finally.  I liked the alley scene at the end better than Chosen (even though I was pissed as all hell about Wesley),  as well as the fighting sequences, though I don't get why Gunn didn't just bomb the place, and why Wesley didn't wait for Illyria for reinforcement.  Hello?  Poor planning...  And Lindsay didn't have to be taken out- I always wondered if that were a direct order from Angel, or if Lorne chose to do that.  Of all the people he asked to do murder, it was Lorne?  The singing club owner guy when he had Spike and Wesley, even Illyria?  I didn't get it...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 02:20 am   #20Maggie2

Scarlet, I kind of think the writers did it all deliberately.  I mean, they didn't *have* to have Angel kill Drogan just to get to the Alley Way.  And they didn't *have* to have Angel order the hit on Lindsey.  (And it was Angel's order -- that's why Lorne tells Angel that after this 'operation' he will never have anything to do with Angel again.)  Angel picked Lorne because that way Lindsey (and the audience) wouldn't see it coming.  So while I agree that the writers had to scramble after the cancellation of the series to wrap things up in a dramatic way -- I think they chose to wrap it up in a way that puts a huge exclamation point on the failure of Angel's project of redemption.  Angel is in the alley way at the end because he has given up, and has contrived a big-bang way to go out so that he can assuage his ego.  IMHO.

Mar 03 2007 02:27 am   #21Scarlet Ibis

All true, but... If you think of it this way, had their been a Spike movie like there *should* have been, the end of Angel set it up as Spike being the true vampire Champion with a soul.  That's the only thing that consoles me   And Lindsey should've been in that alley too, damn it. Killing him didn't make sense.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 03:10 am   #22Maggie2

Yeah, the Lindsey thing was really sad.  I think they did it to show how much Angel fell over the course of four years.  In A1, his shiny moment was believing in Faith and giving her room to find her redemption.  In A5, he denies that to Lindsey -- and it looks like Lindsey might well have been about to find his moment.  You leave me with a good picture, though -- Lindsey in that alley would have been hot!

Of course Spike was the true vampire champion with a soul.  Would like to have seen it in the movie that was supposed to have been, but also suspect Joss would have found some way to pooch that.  I somehow doubt that Joss would want to have a hero who is unambiguously a hero.

Mar 03 2007 03:26 am   #23Guest

Angel knew that Lindsey would betray them sooner or later. Lindsey's goal was to have W&H. He couldn't stay away from the power.

As for Spike on AtS - Spike was the foil to use against all of Angel's crap. He's Angel's conscience several times, he's a friend to Angel that Angel doesn't have to lie to to keep a certain image, and he's a reminder of how things should be done - back to basics. Spike was "different" as much as he was in a different setting. Spike around Angel is going to be more snarky, occasionally immature, and guarded - they're not close at the beginning of the season and can't stand each other - but they're brothers, family, and they eventually resolved a lot of stuff. Had there been a Season 6, we would have gone further into their bonding and Spike being Angel's Jiminy Cricket.

The only thing I have a problem with is the Harmony sex that season, as it just didn't make sense for Spike's character.....he's pretty much over the Hedonistic tendencies of an unsouled vampire, and still head over heels for Buffy, so grabbing the first skirt he sees that he knows will be willing wasn't post-Chosen Spike at all. That was the only time the writers let me down Spike-wise that season.

Looking back on BTVS, I have the same issues we've discussed on other threads pertaining the AR. And the Scoobies should have given more weight to Spike having his soul....that's a definite oversight. After Beneath You, I think Buffy was in shock, and what does Buffy do when surprised? Go into denial......and she's certainly not the prime candidate to help someone with mental stability issues, either! It was in character for her, but SUCKED for Spike.

She cares for him that season, she's focused on him (helping Spike despite what everyone else wanted), and I do believe she meant her words in Chosen (because the character never says I Love You without meaning it before), but yeah....too little, too late. Spike knows she cares, knows there was affection, knows she needed his help - but it's just not enough, after 8 months, for him to risk the big hurt again. He doesn't go because he's unsure, but he also didn't leave because it was a chance to be Spike for Spike, too. He had lots of reasons for staying in L.A., and a post-NFA Spike, provided he lives, won't let Buffy push him around and take over his life like that again. He took his balls back, to be blunt.

CM

Mar 03 2007 04:13 am   #24LadyYashka

 If you watch some of the interviews on the Angel season 5 dvd Joss says that even if they had gotten a sixth season the fifth would have ended the same way it did. The only differences would have been some characters would have lived (and by this I think he means Wesley and possibly Gunn, not sure about Lindsay), and they would have probally had Illyria channeling Fred.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 03 2007 04:24 am   #25Maggie2

I agree with you CM about the Harmony episode.  It was OOC (for where Spike was at that point), and for him to use her after what he went through in B6 -- well... it's ugly.

But the writers in A5 also let me down when they had Spike (and Wesley and the rest of the gang) go along with Angel's apocalypse at the end.  If I recall correctly, Spike and Wesley exchange one questioning glance when they realize that Angel killed Drogan -- but they don't seem to question the project of seriously risking all of their lives in order to launch a battle that Angel acknowledges will accomplish exactly nothing.  Spike's role *had* been exactly to be Angel's nagging voice of conscience, and it mysteriously disappeared at the end.  And Spike, of all people, should have seen it for what it was -- Angel's desire to go out looking like a hero, because he had given up hope of ever actually being one.

Mar 03 2007 05:21 am   #26Scarlet Ibis

As for the Harmony scene, come on you guys, you have to realize that he was an intangible being for how long?  Not being able to effect things, not being able to feel, and Spike was the most tactile character on both shows.  He just wanted to feel, and Harmony knew it for what it was- sex, even if she did have feelings for him.

As for Buffy saying "I love you" to Spike, no, I didn't believe her.  She said it to Riley too, remember?  She sho nuff didn't mean it then either... It was kinda like a "meh, I know you're bout to die now."  Okay, to be fair, maybe Buffy meant it, but SMG so f-ed it up.  She half assed it, and didn't give it the feeling she used to give with her "I love you" scenes with Angel.  She just didn't show up 100% acting wise, and it came through in a piss poor performance in that last moment, which totally sucked.

And Spike and Angel got along before he was corporeal, the little moment they had in "Hell Bound," when they vehemently deny caring about each other at all and so forth.  Oh, and at the end of "Damage" too- they had a tumultuous history, but they still cared.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 06:03 am   #27Guest

She didn't actually say it to Riley. She'd say "I'm your girl" or "I'm with you" but she never confessed love.

Oh, come on! He just wanted to feel? Spike spent a year not being able to act on any touches with Buffy, and he had perfect control of himself. To take it up with Harmony? Totally OOC for where he was by then!

Wes was pretty much suicidal at the end, so him going along with Angel didn't faze me a bit. And Spike....well, he'd already had peace as a dead guy once, and if he couldn't have that, then he could look after his grandsire....because if he had the chance to, and just let Angel die, he knows Buffy wouldn't forgive him for it (even if she never knew).

Yeah, SMG wasn't showing up 100% emotionally after a while. Her "I love you" to Spike was more felt than a lot of the other things she'd said to Spike earlier in the season, though. She at least had tears.

Yes, if there had been a Season 6, Wes and Gunn would have lived. Fred would regain some power in Illyria, and the gang would probably be in a post-apocalyptic world or dimension where they had to band together more than ever to get home. Per interviews with both Joss and Amy.

Mar 03 2007 06:26 am   #28Scarlet Ibis

Ok, she never said I love you to Riley. Fine.  But as for Spike, he didn't try to have sex with any ol' body- it was Harmony.  They had a history together.  He was glad to not be incorporeal anymore, and wanted to celebrate.  He takes Angel's blood, had there been some alcohol around, he would've had that too.  He's sharing blood with Angel, hugging Gunn, and decides to get a leg over.  So what?  How is that OOC under those circumstances?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 06:35 am   #29GoldenBuffy
How is that OOC under those circumstances?



It isn't. IMHO Spike was being Spike. And like you pointed out he was sleeping with Harmony. They did date, it wasn't as if he seduced her, took her home, sexed her up then tossed her to the curb. She knew what she was getting into. And really, are you going to tell me that Harmony would have refused, no. lol. And yes Spike was at one with both his soul and demon, but he's still a man. Men have needs as well as women. After tossing Harm to the side on Buffy he didn't have anyone else to turn to 'cept maybe his hand. And he did get his itch scratched with Buffy later one. But with harmony in S5A, come on give him a break. He'd just brunt up wearing a piece from the Elizabith Tylor collection, was unable tot ouch or do anything then became whole again. He needed to unwind, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 03 2007 06:53 am   #30Scarlet Ibis

Amen to that, GB

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 06:53 am   #31Maggie2

It was a moment when I really hated Spike.  Yeah, they always played Harmony for laughs -- but on more than one occasion in A5 they had her expressing on-going feelings for Spike... which is how he managed to seduce her so easily.  And notice that she did say no first -- and then (cause she's an idiot) all he had to do was give her a look and tell her its a nice skirt, and off she goes.  Then we get this really gross shot of Spike just grunting on her, and not looking at her at all.  And yeah, it's because of the spell or whatever, but when she does freak out, what she says is that she's not going to let him use her, and she tries to kick him off and he punches her lights out.  Somebody using someone for sex when the other person has feelings for them is not a good thing.  And Spike knows this, cause it's what Buffy did to him.  And the only reason we don't care in this case is because Harmony is an idiot and we don't care about *her*.

Now, if Spike had wanted to run off to find some stranger who wanted to get laid, I've got no problem with that.  I get that he was anxious to get back into physical life with gusto.  But having him treat Harmony with the sort of contempt he used to get from Buffy?  It's not making my highlight reel of favorite Spike moments.

Mar 03 2007 07:18 am   #32Scarlet Ibis

Ok, wouldn't compare it to the Spike and Buffy relationship.  Did Spike like Harmony?  Yes, but it was mostly physical for him, which is way obvious.  Harmony is an idiot, however, she was aware that Spike was using her.  She (like many women out there, who sometimes can't resist the guys they care about) just didn't care.  When he told her she had a nice skirt, she gave him a look like, "Okay, let's do it," not, "oh, yes, my blondie bear has finally come back to me and we can go prancing in a field of daisies" look.  She was aware that it was going to be a rough and tumble- she's dealt with Spike before.

In s5 of Buffy, she asks if she can stay with Spike in his crypt to hide from Buffy, and doesn't mind that she has to have sex with him when he wants in order to do so.  "Oh- will I have sex with you?  Well, yea."  She knew for a long time that it wasn't making love with him.

Did he treat her like crap most of the time in s4 when it was an actual relationship (of sorts)?  Absolutely.  But was it as bad as the way Buffy treated Spike?  Not even close.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 07:44 am   #33Maggie2

Almost everything you say here applies to both relationships.  Did Buffy like Spike?  Yes, but it was mostly physical for her, which is way obvious.  Spike is an idiot, however, he was aware that Buffy was using him. He just didn't care.  When she approaches him for sex, he doesn't think she's asking him for a real relationship.  And he often was aware that it was going to be a rough and tumble -- he'd dealt with Buffy before.

It's true that Spike doesn't pound on Harmony, use her for emotional support etc. etc.  So yeah, Buffy is worse.  But on the question of using someone for sex?  Exactly the same.  In fact, I think the writers intentionally wrote the Spike/Harmony thing to be a mirror of the Buffy/Spike thing.

Finally, here's a conversation between Harmony and Spike one episode after their 'innocent' rough and tumble:

Harmony:  "Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly, and it won't matter how horribly you treated her in the past and how you took her for granted, and..."

SPIKE: I never took her for gr (realizes she's talking about herself) Oh.

And then Spike feels the need to be nice -- offering her consolation for some of her other problems.  So even Spike knows, one episode later, that the way he had treated Harmony sucked.

Mar 03 2007 08:04 am   #34Scarlet Ibis

Basic similarities between the two pairings?  Yes.  But Spike actually believed that Buffy really did have feelings for him.  Hell, she even tells him that.  Harmony wanted Spike to have feelings for her, but she knew that he never did.  As you said, "just one look..." and she lost herself.  She chooses to ignore his treatment, so that they kick it or whatever.  Harmony was his rebound chick and F buddy, and Harmony was well aware of that.  Because of the relationship prior to the sex Spike had with Buffy, he believed it to be more than that, and it was, even if Buffy was ashamed of it. Did it hurt Buffy to see Spike with someone else?  Yes.  Would have hurt Spike to see Harm with another guy?  Absolutely not.  There's the difference.

Was his sexual relationship a highlight of Spike moments?  No, but it most certainly wasn't so bad that I thought it out of character, or made me not like him.  I found the way Xander treated Spike more offensive than that. 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 08:33 am   #35GoldenBuffy

good point maggie, but it still comes down to the fact that harm knew spike only wanted her for sex. she knew this when they were sorta together also. he was a master vamp she a lowly sireless vamp. she attached herself to him for statues, as well as the fact that he was hot and good in bed. and again in agnel, she knew spike only wanted sex from her. she said no, but went along with it anyway, again knowing what she was getting into.

where as with buffy and spike, he's loves bitch, he was blindly following buffy hoping not only to help her but to get her to love him back. its a diffrence. and spike didn't realize what he was doing to harm until she pointed it out to him. again, typical male reaction, lol. their slow, alot passes over their heads before they ever catch on, if they ever catch on.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 03 2007 09:48 am   #36Guest

At least it wasn't quite the actors' fault that scene came off so rough, as the writers had originally intended for it to look like a fluffy, light-hearted shag, pre Harmony going crazy with the plague. The director took it in a different direction, though, and they didn't have time to re-shoot afterwards. No one was happy without how it came off when they saw it back, though.

I really didn't see it in character that Spike that's been all "Buffy, Buffy, Buffy" would hop on a chance with Harmony the second he's corporeal again, though. That wasn't *souled Spike* behavior. That was *pre-soul* behavior to use Harmony like that. He even yells at her to shut up during the act, and doesn't even seem like his typical gentleman self that would have made sure the lady got off, too. That moment of him proposing they find an empty office just didn't jive with who he'd come to be up 'til then. Why on earth would he have *suddenly* been reduced to making base urges a priority over anything else just because he'd been a ghost? It made Spike look like a jerk, like any other guy you'd pick up in a bar. Totally OOC.

Mar 03 2007 12:57 pm   #37SpikeHot

Yeah, I also thought that Spike's treatment of Harmony was very awful. I don't even wanna use the excuse of Spike being soulless because if I did, then I can also say that Buffy is justified for treating Spike that way because he's soulless. Whenever Spike comes with Harmony, I get annoyed with him. He wants Buffy to treat him better yet he's a jerk to Harmony. And the sex in season five, wrong, wrong, wrong. Poor Harmony.

I feel a little bad for creating a negative thread, I think I'll create a positive one now.

Mar 03 2007 07:02 pm   #38Guest

Scarlet, you and I *really* see the Harmony thing in a different light.  It seems to me that the running gag was that Harmony always thought Spike had feelings for her, always thought she was in a relationship with her Blondie Bear.  The joke was that she was so incredibly deluded about it.  They carry this joke all the way through to A5.

The thing is, from Buffy's POV, Spike would have looked to her exactly the way Harmony looked to Spike.  Spike thought there was a relationship, some feeling there -- but Buffy totally denied it. 

Now, we can say in retrospect that Spike was closer to being right than was Harmony.  But that doesn't change the facts about what Harmony believed.  And Spike had to know that's what she believed because she never said anything BUT that.  And he never cared.  We hate Buffy for not caring about Spike's feelings.  Well, it has to count as a black mark that Spike didn't care about Harmony's feelings.

But at least Spike came around.  After the conversation where he finally gets how he's been treating her, he stops treating her with such total contempt. 

Mar 03 2007 10:25 pm   #39Scarlet Ibis

Harmony knew that being with Spike was unhealthy- she tells Cordelia exactly that in "Disharmony."  She also knew that in s5 of Buffy, Spike just wanted to have sex with her, and she agreed.  She wasn't a total moron.  It was different circumstances, and the way Spike treated Harmony had nothing to do with his having a soul or not- his treatment of her didn't change when he got one.  He was amicable with her without a soul, but he could also be a bastard.  At least he was honest about being one. And he didn't keep it a secret like *some* people, denying that they were even together.  And he wasn't underhandedly condescending to her (as Xander was with Anya), and I see that as being worse.  Harmony knew his terms, and eagerly consented to them.  Did she hope for more?  Of course.  But did he make her believe it was more than what it was?  Never, which is also another imperative difference.  He was cruel to her, and used her, but he didn't hide that fact, and didn't play head games with her.  She knew it all, and that's why I don't blame him.  Can't blame him because she allowed herself to be his doormat.

And Spike wasn't Buffy's doormat so much as her personal punching bag, stringing him along, so you can't compare the two. Nope.

As for Spike being OOC, I still don't concur.  He loved Buffy in s5, was willing to die for her and be tortured for the sake of her happiness, and still had sex with Harmony (while thinking about Buffy).  And everyone is trying to differentiate Spike soulless and with a soul, when really, not all that much changed- he's basically the same. The way he loved Buffy at the end of s5 was the same as when he had in s6 and s7 (minus the insanity and extreme solemness at first, but hey, he was adjusting).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 03 2007 10:53 pm   #40Maggie2

Spike also knows that Buffy doesn't love him, that she's using him.  He tries in Gone to stand up for more, but otherwise just keeps going along with it.  And if your criteria for the OK-ness of Spike-Harmony is that Harmony knew the deal and acquiesced -- well, Spike went along with Buffy every ugly step of the way, too.  I guess we can't blame Buffy because Spike allowed himself to be her doormat.  I don't see that Buffy was "stringing" Spike along.  She was quite clear about not loving him, about the fact that she never would love him.  And Spike knows this in B5 ("I know you'll never love me.") and in B7 (We both know it isn't love). 

I did say that Buffy's use of Spike as a punching bag makes things worse -- I'm just talking about the pattern of treating someone who cares for you with contempt and using them for sex.  Buffy certainly treats Spike with contempt, and Spike treats Harmony with contempt.  Please don't read me as extending the comparison further than this one narrow issue.

My thing about OOC is not about having sex with someone other than Buffy.  It's about being so cruel to another person.  I would have thought that by the time we got to A5, Spike would have learned something about not treating people with contempt.  And if I recall correctly, after his realization of what he's doing with Harmony in his conversation with her at the end of Harm's Way, Spike *did* stop being so openly contemptuous with her.  So he was capable of learning and that's IN character -- and since people can have learning moments, I won't push the OOC claim too far.  But I stand pat on ugly.  IT's a saving grace for Spike that he can see that it was ugly and stop doing it.

Also, curious what you make of the fact that Spike with his super-tactile nature appears to live as celibate as a monk in the second half of A5.  Am I wrong in recalling that he doesn't even have a double bed in his apartment?  Yeah, he goes to bars to watch the girls -- but do we ever see him with one?

Mar 03 2007 11:15 pm   #41Guest

He didn't have a double bed - you're right on that. At most, it was a twin and a half. And he wasn't shown with any girl in a romantic/sexual capacity the rest of the season. He went back to being just as celibate as he was in BTVS 7. I think he went to the stripper bars just because they leave you alone there, as long as you don't cause a fuss. He could drink in peace without being bothered to dance, either.

CM

Mar 03 2007 11:18 pm   #42Scarlet Ibis

Actually, Spike didn't realize that Buffy was using him until s7 in "Never Leave Me."  He wasn't allowing him to be her doormat so much as thinking that he would do whatever he could to help her cope with her many problems, particularly coming back from the grave.  He refers to her as being his girl, and expects her to not see other people because they were in a (secret) relationship.  In fact, we learn in "Normal Again" and "Seeing Red," that he does believe that Buffy loves him, but is denying herself happiness with her whole martyr syndrom thing.  When Dawn tells him that he succeeded in hurting Buffy, well, you can't hurt someone that doesn't care.  Spike did not know that she was just using him.  Even though she said so, he clearly did not believe that until s7.

And I don't agree with Spike treating Harmony with contempt.  Used her, yes, but he wasn't contemptuous with her all of the time- that's just inaccurate.  Buffy treated Spike with contempt most of the time, the same does not apply to Spike's treatment of Harmony.  Spike was mostly annoyed with Harmony, and treated her as a nuisance, or was indifferent, but Buffy treated Spike with disdain.  There's a huge difference.  Spike did not despise Harmony as Buffy despised Spike.  In fact, he's complimented her, and implored her before ("The Real Me") to steer clear of danger (leave the slaying of slayers to the professionals).  If he felt contempt for her, he wouldn't care either way.

And using someone for a quick round of sex does not equate to contempt- it was what it was, just sex.  He wasn't all "Harmony, you make me sick.  But let's have sex, cause I despise you so much," as Buffy loved to do.  It was more a "hey, now I'm corporeal finally, and Harmony you look good and feel really nice- let's both get a leg over."

As for the second half of Angel s5, we don't have to see Spike with girls- you can have sex in a single bed (Anya and Xander in Spike's little cot in s7), assuming he even bothered to take the girls back to his place and not theirs, or an alley, or the place he picked them up in. You really don't need a bed to have sex, anyway. Just cause he wasn't in a relationship doesn't mean wasn't getting laid.  In s7 of Buffy, he was still going out, talking to women because he couldn't talk to Buffy.  I don't see why he wouldn't have sex, especially when she's on an entire other continent.  My guess is it just didn't happen with the same someone, so there was no point in bringing it up.  We only see Angel have sex cause he was in a relationship.  We never see a character really have a one night stand unless it's with a character who will appear more than once, and in Angel s5, there were way too many other story lines to deal with then to take the time to shoot several seconds of Spike having sex with some random chick.  Spike is very sexual in nature- he's always doing something (strip clubs, wanking off, as he so eloquently puts it, fighting, whatever), and I'm sure that in some cases, a non descript someone.  My guess is, he probably found a string of short blondes to entertain himself with from time to time.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 03 2007 11:47 pm   #43Maggie2

Well, I don't think we are going to come to any kind of agreement on this.  Neither relationship was non-stop contempt.  But both had plenty of contemptuous moments.  You are focusing on the contemptuous side of B/S and the non-contemptuous side of S/H (such as it was), and downplaying the other sides.  All I can say is that I would have *hated* to be in Harmony's situation with Spike, just as I would have hated to be in Spike's situation with Buffy.

As for Spike believing that Buffy loved him.  He certainly hoped it.  But he tried to kick her out in Gone because he saw what the deal is.  And in the alley way he conceded that he was trying to NOT love Buffy cause he could see that it was a raw deal.  In fact, I attribute 99% of the 'negative' Spike stuff in B6 to his frustration/anger with the situation with Buffy... the nasty stuff he said to her was his way of trying to get his own back -- but he never just leaves cause he's love's bitch, etc. etc.  Much like Harmony just couldn't say no to Spike, even though she complained about his treatment of her.

Well, we're just going round and round.  About the celibacy thing -- I suppose we can read in anything we want and say that the writers just didn't show it.  I'd say the fact that we ARE shown scenes of Spike in bars, and when we see them there's never girls in the picture suggests that you are reading in something against the grain of what is suggested by what we did see.  And Spike says he was "just" talking to the girls in B7 -- in a context which would have him assuring Buffy that it was nothing more.  So I tend to think that from Anya on the table top to Harmony in the office, there was a drought for Spike, and I tend to think it continued thereafter.  But no, we don't have a 24/7 Spike-cam to consult on the question. 

Mar 04 2007 12:02 am   #44Scarlet Ibis

Um... Harmony was the rebound girl- Spike didn't hate himself when he was with her as Buffy hated herself for being with Spike (in s6).  We see Spike having sex with Anya or Harmony because we know who they are- they're regulars.

And when I referred to Spike talking to women, I know it was just talking in s7.  I'm saying if he even went through the trouble to talk to them when Buffy was around because he was feeling lonely, then why not take it there or further when she was no where near him?  Spike on Angel s5 was more about being himself, and doing what made him happy because he didn't have anyone to please or look down on him (what with "Angel's Avengers" being accepting of him and who and what he was), so he was free to be himself and do what he liked.  Spike likes sex, so I assume he did that too.  His main thing was proving how much he wasn't like Angel, so sitting around, brooding, and being celibate would definitely be the opposite of that.  But no, we'll never see eye to eye on this, so I'll conclude my thoughts here for the moment, and see if someone else will weigh in

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 04 2007 05:24 am   #45Maggie2

But it was fun to argue about it -- and a great excuse to not keep ploughing through my homework.  Plus it's a first for me -- I'll defend Spike against almost any negative charge.  I mean, I seriously think that the only way to read BtVS/AtS is to understand that it's really (REALLY) All. About. Spike.  Strange to take the other side for once.  Anyway, we agree on stuff like the so-called AR, etc.

Mar 04 2007 06:00 am   #46Scarlet Ibis

Yes, that's true Maggie.  We do agree on the not so AR, and that the both shows were all about Spike.  If it hadn't been for him, I would've stopped watching Buffy, eventually.  The Riley story arc made me sick, and s4, I didn't really watch after less than half way through the show until s5 rolled around, and I watched reruns to find out the things I missed. 

Oh, I remember the first time I saw "School Hard," and I was just drawn in!  Even if he was all "evil," I couldn't stop rooting for him, hoping he'd get more air time.  He just melted my twelve year old heart. Sigh   You know, they should really get a "I <3 Spike" smiley.  I'd probably use it all the time...  And those first few sentences probably prove that Spike could rarely if ever do any wrong in my eyes.  If I had been Harmony, for the most part, I'm not sure how much I'd care...  Although I think she went easy on him when she shot him with that arrow- I so would've kicked his ass, and beat him with something heavy and blunt.  Okay, off topic.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 29 2008 08:38 pm   #47nmcil

Great point - you need that contrast to make his journey meaningful - it is tempting to forget just how bad pre-chip Spike could be, HLOD is another great reminder.  Going from the Spike that so casually will test out a potential gem by staking his current companion to Spike from Intervention is a huge change.

slaymesoftly:
"...he has to talk himself into attacking the woman when he thinks the chip has failed..."  

Another wonderful connection with this scene is his lines about the natural ability, like something learned in childhood that one never forgets - Spike leaving behind his natural vamp behavior.

GoldenBuffy"
"Like others have said, I don't really have a problem with Spike. The whole bit with chaning both Buffy and Dru up, like Patti said, he's a vampire in his mind it made perfect sense."

We should remember that this is the same behavior that Spike applies to his other  Love, Drusilla - tie her up.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 09:09 pm   #48nmcil
Scarlet Ibis:
"That was not his intent, and had it been, he would've tried again, even after she pushed him away." 

The tragic events from this scene and his intent are in his words of "I'll make you feel it again" (sorry for the paraphrase, this is how I remember them-please correct if different) Everything in the bathroom is about their past - No one can excuse his physical attack on her - but normally the physical rape attack is motivated from very different psychological origins.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 09:18 pm   #49nmcil

Maggie2:
About A5:  Was Angel really portrayed as a hero?  He's working for an evil law firm because he made a deal to mind-wipe all of his friends (which Cordy totally calls him on).  He decides to go out with a big bang -- which involves killing a totally innocent person in cold blood (Drogan), risking the lives of his crew and anyone else in downtown LA who runs into the hordes of nasty beasts who come as a result of what he does, and he orders the cold-blooded execution of Lindsey -- and all for what?  To stop the world from going on the way it normally does.  Yes, they always have Angel in the hero-posture, dominating the screen and all of that.  But what they show him doing is all really very morally bankrupt.  Compare that to Spike's selfless and glorious sacrifice in The Chosen.

And the writers did acknowledge Spike's essential superiority to Angel when they realized that there was no way they could justify having Angel beating Spike in the fight over the destiny cup.  Spike won that battle because he's the true hero.  All the rest of the stuff that made Spike look lesser than Angel is just window-dressing.  The big theme of the season was that appearances don't match reality.





Wolfram and Hart is from the mythic world Angel's Belly of the Beast - his war with himself and his inner demons - and it is a war that he lost.  From the perspective of politics in our world, which I firmly believe Joss Whedon also includes in his Buffy and Angel, his "let's get to work" I interpret as our own real life and political struggles are always their for us to fight for.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 09:49 pm   #50Guest
Angel was doing what he did at the end based on Cordy's vision. Drogyn sacrificed himself, he was in on the plan. And he knew Lindsey would betray them because Lindsey WANTS ANGEL'S JOB. He wants the power, and he's only "helping" because he fears the SPs - BUT, if he could get all the other players out of the way, then kill Angel as soon as his back is turned because Angel is trusting him, then Lindsey shows himself to be the ultimate ruthless champion for W&H. He found the clarity Holland Manners wanted him to find and chose sides - himself.

And hey, Angel laid out the plan, and the group could have said NO. Illyria had no allegiance to Angel, so if she thought the plan was stupid, she would have said so. Since they all agreed on it, we can't put all the "blame" on Angel!! Free will, hello!
Jan 29 2008 10:05 pm   #51nmcil
So glad you mentioned this - I always get the impression that SMG had a personal commitment and belief in the Angel-Buffy Romance Cycle and that it is very evident in her love scenes with Spike - as far as conveying feelings of Deep Love, her interpretations of Buffy-Angel were powerful and extremely convincing.  When she plays scenes with Spike, most of the power and effective scenes are with violence as plot motivations.  I am in no way suggesting that SMG had any romantic feelings for DB of any kind, but simply that the place she works from as an actress appears to have a great belief in Spangel.  I think her work in that arc of the series was excellent - Even as far removed in time as IWRY - there is such excellence in her love scenes with Angel.  It would be wonderful to have greater knowledge of her  working process.  

What was her worst scene with respect to lines that felt wrong and false - her scene with Spike during their "you used me" discussion while he is bond on that chair.   
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 10:56 pm   #52nmcil
Drogyn sacrificed himself, he was in on the plan.

I have always wondered about the Drogyn connection - can you give more info on this?  If Drogyn cannot tell anything but the truth, as shown in the previous episode, "Hole in the World" I think is the title - why is he able to lie to the AI team?  And why would Drogyn as Keeper of The Deeper Well involved himself with Angel's plans to infiltrate and then attack the black thorn?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 11:04 pm   #53Scarlet Ibis
Drogyn wasn't in on the plan, but was merely an accidental casualty.  Angel used Drogyn and Fred's death to his advantage to get access to the Black Thorn.  The key players thought that Angel had taken Fred out, and that he had sent someone to attack Drogyn (he says in the ep that he was the one who told the lie that he'd turned evil, but also the one who gave Wesley the clue about the Black Thorn in his book in the second to last ep).  He did not anticipate that Drogyn would be captured, however, and had no choice but to kill him.  Either way, Drogyn was going to be killed (and it was a mercy, considering the torture he went through at the hands of the Black Thorn members).  But if Angel hadn't killed him, they both would've been killed.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 30 2008 12:08 am   #54Eowyn315
Angel picked Drogyn specifically, because Drogyn couldn't lie. He convinced Drogyn he'd gone bad, so that when Drogyn said Angel was evil, that meant as far as anyone knew, Angel was evil.

Drogyn couldn't have been in on the plan - otherwise he would've known that Angel was playing everyone, and he wouldn't have been able to spread the word that Angel was evil, because he would have had to tell the truth.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 30 2008 12:22 am   #55Guest
You can tell, kind of, in his eyes at the end that he's kinda figured it out, though, just before Angel killed him. Probably read what was in Angel's face. And it's easy for the Powers to sacrifice a life for the cause, since they're up there looking at the big picture like a chess game. I love the feeling of those last eps of the series.....

CM
Jan 30 2008 02:31 am   #56nmcil
you do get the impression that Drogyn has reached some conclusion and understanding  just before his death - I have got to  watch these episodes again - Season Six of Angel clearly referenced Fred as the primary reason he decides to change his tactics - Take His Stand - at Wolfram and Hart. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 30 2008 02:40 am   #57Scarlet Ibis
I think Angel was just tired of losing the people he cared about most.  Everytime he thought there was a balance, when things were going good, someone he loves dies, nearly dies, gets kidnapped, or possessed by some kind of demon.  Fred, Cordy, Connor--they were apart of his family, and he didn't want to take it anymore.  It was kinda like a "instead of taking us down one by one, we're going to take you out instead on our time--not yours."  I get that.  It was about wanting to take back control.

I agree--I think Drogyn knew in that last moment.  Angel doesn't look all excited about it, after all.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 30 2008 04:13 am   #58Eowyn315
Yeah, but realizing it in the last moment isn't the same as being in on the plan. Drogyn didn't sacrifice himself - he didn't have a choice. He may have understood why Angel was doing it, but that doesn't mean he wanted to be part of it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 30 2008 04:15 am   #59Scarlet Ibis
I never said he was in on it...I was just agreeing with Caro that he probably realized it in that last instant.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 30 2008 05:41 am   #60Eowyn315
I know you didn't, Scarlet... but others did.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 01:55 am   #61nmcil
I've been thinking on this Drogyn as sacrifice - his only connection was when Angel and Spike went to the Deeper Well and Illyria's appearance - and my question is why would the Black Thorn choose him as the sacrifice?  Was it just totally bad karma coming back on Angel that his attempt to save Fred was the direct link back to Drogyn. One innocent life exchanged for price of entry - but was the price too high and ultimately a tragic error of judgement.  One thing to have the sacrifice to willingly accepted, but something else entirely different when the sacrifice victim was simply trapped within Angel's plans.  Was Drogyn the final and fatal flaw of Angel's attempt to save Connor.  Angel was so caught in his bad choices - his life really did play out like a Greek Tragedy.

This takes me back to the Buffy-Angel-Angelus arc again and the idea of unconditional love; this being consumed by the Love Object, only instead of Buffy, it is now Connor.   It seems that Angel's love is more like a kiss of death or the bite of death - I always think of Anna Karenina as another great character that makes so many choices that only destroy her.  She too gives us one life, her son, in exchange for this idea of Grand Passion and The Great Love, accept that Angel chooses Connor over all his comrades.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 02:09 am   #62Scarlet Ibis
It wasn't Angel's fault per se--Drogyn being captured.  He was safe at Spike's, under Illyria's supervision, until Hamilton stormed in, kick Illyria's ass, then took Drogyn with him to be tortured.  For what, I'm not sure--I'd have to watch it again.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 31 2008 02:57 am   #63pfeifferpack
Dia said: <i>Ok, lets hope I don't hijack the thread with this, but: Says who? Where in the show does it say that vampires expirience love differently than humans? Cos if it was mentioned, I must have missed it. </i>
You are right.  In fact on Angel there is a conversation between a demon and Wes that discusses love while speaking of Jasmine .  It's from the episode Sacrifice (AtS S4) by Ben Edlund
<i>"We loved her first!

WESLEY
And how does your kind define "love"?

DEMON
Same as all bodies. Same as everywheres. Love is sacrifice."</i>
The implication is that love is defined the same among demons as with humans even if the one word definition is simplistic.

As for the actual thread question...The AR in Seeing red bothers me to no end.  There were other things they could have done to make him go get the soul if they felt they had to do so.  I felt he was harsh with Harmony when they were together but at least he WAS honest about his lack of feeling.  Can't really blame him for the zipless fuck (he never unzipped for heavens sake!) on Angel though.  I hated some of the dialogue they gave him on Angel it seemed out of character from the vampire we saw on Buffy.  In particular is the way he refered to the sex with Buffy in a way that made it less lovemaking and more Fu**ing when talking to Angel (I think he would have emphasized the love ESPECIALLY to Angel), his blowing off the comments from FakeRoger about when the Council saw him in action eating kids in an orphanage.  I think souled Spike would have been less casual at that reminder.

That's about it..nothing I can't wank in fic *G*.

Kathleen

Jan 31 2008 03:04 am   #64pfeifferpack
Scarlet, I think Spike meant DRU specifically would show love in this way (tie up and torture, cut off head etc.), not necessarily vampires in general.  Dru was demented and equated pain and torture to love thanks to Angelus.

I remember the vampire couple on Angel named James and Elizabeth (precursorers to Spike and Dru in the fanged four family).  They loved for centuries but weren't mentally ill like Dru.  When Elizabeth was dusted by Angel James had his heart cut out in grief (yes...he didn't dust, something about having a grace period of time before the delayed reaction) and sought out Angel to acenge her death. 

Likely vamps are a bit more rough but aside from Dru nothing indicated torture and pain was a regular sign of love.  I really think it was just HER.

Kathleen
Jan 31 2008 03:18 am   #65Scarlet Ibis
Kathleen, I said that?  Hmm...well, I agree.  Spike's idea of love was skewed because of Drusilla (and Angelus).  Tying her up and torturing her sounded something more along the lines Angelus would've done, and since Spike was the one to help take her "Daddy" away, it'd make sense that he would attempt to fill that void, and prove to her that she only needed Spike, and not Angelus, like it used to be.  And for the record, I think he only tied Buffy up because, well, how else was he gonna get her to listen?  That way, she can't run, or cover her ears

more Fu**ing when talking to Angel (I think he would have emphasized the love ESPECIALLY to Angel)
That was more about pissing Angel off.  Before his "I guess she must've been thinking about you all those times I was putting it to her" line, Angel says something about she could never have loved Spike, because she wasn't Angel.  I think that was Spike semi conceding that that was true, but in his anger, he wanted to hurt Angel back.  I think what he was really saying was that she may have loved Angel, but Angel could never express his love physically like he could (cept that one time, of course).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 31 2008 05:52 am   #66Eowyn315
And for the record, I think he only tied Buffy up because, well, how else was he gonna get her to listen?

You kinda have to wonder, though - if you have to tie a girl up in order to tell her you love her, exactly what kind of a response should you really be expecting? lol Somehow I don't think that's going to suddenly make her revile him any less....
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 05:57 am   #67Scarlet Ibis
Sometimes, you just gotta say what's on your mind--lay it all out on the table   I don't think it's necessarily about winning or losing, but more of a...release for the speaker.  You know how you sometimes see that scene in movies and stuff, and one person is always is like "No--don't say it! I can't deal with this right now" and it's kind of obvious they really mean it, but then the person goes on says it anyway?  (and I just saw this similar scene on "One Tree Hill" last night.  I watch that show for amusement purposes only).  Getting it off your chest and so forth.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 31 2008 06:38 am   #68Quark
And for the record, I think he only tied Buffy up because, well, how else was he gonna get her to listen?

You kinda have to wonder, though - if you have to tie a girl up in order to tell her you love her, exactly what kind of a response should you really be expecting? lol Somehow I don't think that's going to suddenly make her revile him any less....


It was definitely the wrong call but in canon Spike had one relationship, one very long romantic experience to pull from when trying to develop a way to relate to Buffy and that was with Drusilla.  Not only was she mentally unstable, a vampire, soulless (if you choose to consider that) and unquestionably devoted to another man (Angelus) for the duration of his time with her, it was established in "Lover's Walk" that Spike considered finding Drusilla, tying her up, and torturing her until she liked him again was a way to get her attention.  One could possibly make the assumption that he felt not torturing Buffy was human enough, and tying her up was the right route to take.  I've always thought that little bit of action taking was very in character for Spike.

Not surprisingly Buffy didn't react well - understandably so - and I think it was a very good way to highlight just how removed he still was in terms of understanding human interaction.  I might not have liked that he did it, but I certainly saw it as in character and a good way for the writers to bring things to a head for the Buffy/Spike interaction.

And to step away from canon for a moment one could also wonder how vampire senses played into that whole little drama.  Was he forcing the issue because he hear her heart beat faster when he was around? Could smell her attraction?  Something?  Could that have been behind his knowing she felt something for him, even if she didn't want to admit it?  It's just a thought, but not necessarily part of the canon of Buffyverse.  Also, going against the wishes of his maker after more than a century of catering to her could have weighed more than we actually saw on-screen.  Wouldn't it have to?  Despite Drusilla leaving him, despite their issues, it had to have been a very big deal that he didn't just let Drusilla eat Buffy while she was unconscious.

My least favorite Spike moment, aside from the obvious ones from season six, is when he commissioned the Buffy Bot.  If I even try to explain why I'll end up writing a rant, which I don't want to do.  Suffice to say, it was lame.  Way lame.  Very stupid.  Out of character, completely ignores the whole "vampire senses" thing.  Etc, etc.  Right.  Better stop or I'll be writing an essay.

~ Q
~ Q
Jan 31 2008 07:00 am   #69nmcil
It wasn't Angel's fault per se--Drogyn being captured. He was safe at Spike's, under Illyria's supervision, until Hamilton stormed in, kick Illyria's ass, then took Drogyn with him to be tortured. For what, I'm not sure--I'd have to watch it again.

Watched again tonight - such a powerful and heartbreaking episode, seeing the death of Fred and Wesley being with her until her death really makes you think about your own loved ones.  This was a wonderful AI Team episode - all that solidarity and the desperate efforts to save Fred plus all the scenes from The Deeper Well and it all ends with Illyria being resurrected - One of the highlights ( but extremely sad)  of the entire season. 

It ends up that Black Thorn Circle members are the ones responsible for bringing Drogyn as the sacrificial victim - but Angel's mistake that Fred was the victim that was referred to - it was actually Drogyn that Cordelia saw in her vision.  Not sure how Angel had expected this to play out - or who he had expected to be the sacrifice, if Fred dying for the Illyria Shell was not the expected victim -  Drogyn was the warrior and ally that was the referenced target - anyone have a different perspective on this? 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 03:49 pm   #70Scarlet Ibis
It ends up that Black Thorn Circle members are the ones responsible for bringing Drogyn as the sacrificial victim - but Angel's mistake that Fred was the victim that was referred to - it was actually Drogyn that Cordelia saw in her vision. Not sure how Angel had expected this to play out - or who he had expected to be the sacrifice, if Fred dying for the Illyria Shell was not the expected victim - Drogyn was the warrior and ally that was the referenced target - anyone have a different perspective on this?

I'm not sure about all that...however, Angel didn't make his official decision to take down the Black Thorn until Illyria makes this comment in "Timebomb" about being a leader...I can't remember the quote--haven't worked through the s5 DVDs again just yet

And to step away from canon for a moment one could also wonder how vampire senses played into that whole little drama.  Was he forcing the issue because he hear her heart beat faster when he was around? Could smell her attraction?  Something?  Could that have been behind his knowing she felt something for him, even if she didn't want to admit it? 

I would have to say that I concur with that assesment.  Spike was not delusional--he wouldn't just assume she had the hots for him, so to speak, out of nowhere.  At the very least, he knew he made her nervous (insert scene from "Crush" when he's at her house in the kitchen, and he pulls her aside to talk to her.  Her behavior was clearly that of a nervous person, which effects heartbeat and probably scent), and how could a chipped vampire possibly make a Slayer nervous?  I also suspect that in "Out of My Mind" when they were fighting in the college lab or whatever, and he's about to bite her, she doesn't resist--not until he gets a splitting headache. Ooh--or in "Fool for Love," she's all like "You got off (on fighting them)" and he looks at her sardonically and says "Like you don't?" like he knew from personal experience.  Faith also brings this up, but it's like Buffy's too ashamed to admit it (I mean, to Faith before all the badness).  So yeah, in conclusion, I think she got hot while fighting him, and being a vamp, it was easy to tell.  He's fought her enough times and been around her to know it wasn't a fluke.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 31 2008 06:49 pm   #71nmcil
Angel didn't make his official decision to take down the Black Thorn until Illyria makes this comment in "Timebomb" about being a leader...I can't remember the quote--haven't worked through the s5 DVDs again just yet

You are correct - the comic season starts of very early with using Fred's death as a major consideration for his taking on The Black Thorn - I do agree that it was Illyria's lecture that first made him really think about his status in the power pecking order - Fred's "why did we ever go there" (paraphrase) makes it all more difficult and heartbreaking.  But the metaphor is great, the whole world is being corrupted, infected and consumed by the Power Elites.  And my interpretation, right or wrong, is that Angel was also being consumed.  Wesley's lines about watching Angel being destroyed little by little also applied to all the original AI Team.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 07:01 pm   #72nmcil
My least favorite Spike moment, aside from the obvious ones from season six, is when he commissioned the Buffy Bot

The Buffy Bot was a serious bad Spike moment - but it does make a good contrast to the future using of bodies as sex objects only - all that wonderful and fantasy love with the Buffy Bot becomes the real world nightmare of Buffy and Spike in Season Six - plus all the arc of Warren, murder, self-destruction, delusions, and ugly twisted love and passions are introduced with The Buffy Bot symbol.   Do you think Buffy Bot was just a easy plot device from the writers or is it from the established character that you object to?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 01 2008 11:12 am   #73Quark
Do you think Buffy Bot was just a easy plot device from the writers or is it from the established character that you object to?

Not really an easy plot device so much as a hokey one that possibly could have been better.  I think that Spike's actions while obsessed with Buffy rang true through to "Crush," but those actions became a bit outlandish for a couple of episodes centering around the bot.  Smell is depicted time and again (and even made fun of during an episode in s7) as a significantly amped sense for vampires.  Even if we forget completely that vampires in the Buffyverse have any other heightened abilities, senses, its a rather large mistake that Spike is completely clueless about the robot in "I Was Made To Love You" or that he even considers having a bot made to act, essentially, as a highly functioning blow-up doll.  The scent of metal and plastic would have been a neon sign.  Throw in lack of heartbeat, or all the other tiny little things a vampire would pick up on off a real human body and the whole thing falls flat.

I know it's a nitpick, but it's one of those things that turns a good show into a great one when those little snafus are caught and fixed with a line or two.  Getting the audience to suspend disbelief long enough to accept Spike would take his obsession that next step of creating a replacement should have been further supported by a line or two - a question from Spike on how it smelled so real (or sounded or seemed or felt) and Warren replying with "I know someone who does a little magic"  or just something, some line to ground the show firmly in the world that's been created.

The whole bot subplot (or would that be plot?) is just another example of Spike being used as a character to bring in a needed element to the series arc, whatever that might be - humor, angst, drama - which in this case was the using of the bot as a sort of red herring in "The Gift."  Spike was the Swiss Army Character a great deal in s4 &s5.  Which, again, isn't necessarily a bad thing so much as a bit of a let down considering what potential they had bringing the character in from s2. 

~ Q
~ Q
Feb 01 2008 06:28 pm   #74nmcil
Thanks for our answers - and you are right - a few simple lines to suggest that Spike missed all those human things that he loved about Buffy would have dealt with the established facts regarding the characters - He does have that one line where the viewers are brought back to the reality of the Bot Fantasy and the dark and tragic side of Spike's desperate love. 

Your point of the vampire smell and hearing being a huge plot error is right - You have to wonder if the script coordinator was ever an important part of the production staff . So many obvious plot and continuity errors made their way onto the final scripts.  If they wanted a "let's throw Spike through the window" scene it would have been simple to include a quick reference to something was not quite what it seemed and still not give away the girl robot theme.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 01 2008 09:36 pm   #75Guest
One thing this makes me think of is when Spike has stolen buffy's sweater and gets Harmony to wear it. She makes some stupid remark about being the Slayer and he pounces on her, without a shirt. Being with the buffybot didn't involve pain or dominance or anything people might call vampire love or obsession, and he treated the robot as a fantasy of Buffy, which guys do, better than Buffy treated him when she was using him during season sex.
Too, nmcil, which line are you talking about that tells us of the dark and tragic side of Spike's desperate love? There are a few episodes with the bot and I can't pin down which specific line you might mean. The only thing I can think that mentions Spike's love is when real Buffy is pretending to be the bot after he gets tortured by Glory- and that doesn't seem like dark side of Spike's desperate love. Please write the quote?
Feb 01 2008 10:26 pm   #76FetchingMadScientist
I think I know which episode you were pointing out.  There is an exchange in "Intervention" with the Bot. 

At one point, the Bot asks Spike if she should "...start this program over."  Spike tells her, "They're not programs.  Don't use that word.  Just be Buffy."  What makes this a sad exchange is that Spike, it appears, had just finished cuddling with the Bot.  It's clear he wanted the fantasy to go on a little longer, and this exchange reminded him, and the audience, that this, indeed, was *not* Buffy, no matter how perfect she seemed.
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Feb 02 2008 03:08 am   #77Eowyn315
I don't think the Bot was all that out of character for Spike, or a plot error, whichever you consider it. I mean, Harmony didn't have any of those human things (smell, warmth, heartbeat, breathing, etc.) but he still used her to pretend she was Buffy. Sure, she wore the sweater for the roleplay, but she didn't wear it every time they had sex. And at least the Bot looked like Buffy, and would (for the most part) do and say what Spike wanted her to. Harmony actually had a mind of her own, simple as it was, which had the unfortunate side effect of pissing Spike off. If he would use a vampire to fuel his Buffy fantasies, I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he would use a robot.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 02 2008 04:36 am   #78Quark
I don't think it's that much of a stretch that he would use a robot.

Probably not much of a stretch, but kind of an odd one I think.  Maybe not completely out of character, but close. Like I said, I think its a bit hokey and outlandish - the choosing to make the bot, I mean.  And granted, I'm know I'm being a total knob for pointing it out but Harmony had to have had a scent - perhaps not a human one, but something, and she had to have been able to breathe to talk, and while she was most certainly an idiot, he was dealing with a sentient being with thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc.  There's a huge step to go from that to a high functioning doll.  I've always thought that part of Spike's appeal was his sort of twisted love for humanity.  His little speech in the s2 finale about enjoying the world - what humanity had to offer along with being walking happy meals, his quirky attachment to human food, and keeping up with pop culture.  For him to just toss all that out the window and embrace this sort of highly evolved toaster as a self gratification tool seemed kinda weird.  I think the writers did a good job of showing just how hopelessly pathetically in love with Buffy he was with "Crush."  Taking it a step farther with the bot seemed, eh, over the top.  It was a funny episode  ( "Intervention" ) and it was a great plot device for "The Gift" but I can't shake the feeling the whole bot subplot rang a bit out of character and could have benefited from some tweaking.  A line here, a comment there, and it would have been better.  (I think I called the bot subplot lame somewhere else on the boards, or maybe this thread, which is what I tend to think every time I see it.  It's just one of those gut reaction things whenever I watch it.  I have one of those "yeah, right," moments and then it passes.  Of course, this doesn't stop me from laughing each time the Buffy Bot calls Spike the Big Bad.  Heh.)

But, then again, I'm a perfectionist most of the time and highly critical and demanding.  I'd make a horrible beta probably. 

~ Q
~ Q
Feb 02 2008 05:21 am   #79Eowyn315
Probably not much of a stretch, but kind of an odd one I think.

I think it would've been a lot odder if they hadn't done the April robot episode first. It's not like Spike came up with the idea for a robot out of the blue. Warren happened to be convenient - and as a concept, I can see how a robot Buffy might've seemed like a good idea to Spike. After all, he already had the mannequin - at least the robot walked and talked. But I think it would've been somewhat disappointing when he got it. We didn't really get to see that, since he only had it for a few hours, but we do see his impatience with it at times. If the Scoobies hadn't taken it away, I think he probably would've lost interest fairly quickly. He doesn't even seem all that disappointed that it's gone, so maybe the shininess of his new toy had already worn off.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 02 2008 05:40 am   #80Quark
This is probably switching off into fanon territory (or would it be meta? is that the right word? I swear, my brain is soup today) but does anyone think they took any of the old mythologies about vampires having obsessive compulsive issues into account when they were writing the series?  Wasn't it old European legends that suggested tossing seeds or sand or something along the path of a vampire to distract them because they would be too obsessive compulsive to pass up counting or collecting them?  Or am I remembering something that was in fiction?  (Not that it wasn't all fiction anyway.) I mention this because Spike's behavior sort of lends itself to that idea - vampires leaning toward obsessive behaviors.   His obsession with Buffy definitely had that sort of compulsion element - like he just couldn't help himself.  I guess having the bot made sort of ties in with that idea, too.

Wow, I think I just crossed over the line into thinking about this too much.
~ Q
Feb 02 2008 06:57 am   #81Scarlet Ibis
I also didn't find the bot OOC--he was just lonely.  At that point, he didn't have Harmony, Dawn, Joyce...he was alone.  Spike isn't one too fond of being utterly alone.  And yeah, the bot could actually talk back to him.

Also, I didn't find his love and attraction to Buffy as obsessive.  I found it to be, well, a bit juvenile in s5, actually.  Collecting pictures, and articles of clothing (yeah okay, the whole panties thing was totally a guy thing), was something a teenaged or grammar school girl would do with her crush or puppy love.  I'm willing to bet a dime to a dozen that in s1 and some of s2 Willow had pics of Xander, and maybe a shirt or something that smelled like him.  Pictures, articles of clothes, and something three dimensional that resembles Buffy.  Consider something two dimensional like oh say, a cardboard cutout as opposed to a mannequin, and tell me if you still think Spike was obsessed.  I think it was just fascination combined with appreciation, I do. (looks around)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 02 2008 09:44 am   #82nmcil
I like to think that all this goes right back to OMWF - and the metaphor of Buffy Bot again reflects Buffy's lines "this isn't real, but I just want to feel."  The fantasy and start of Buffy's relationship with Spike changes, just like the ending of OMWF, the last scene of "Intervention" changes from Buffy Bot fantasy to real feelings.  Regrettably, for me, was taking this theme of fantasy and love to the extremes of their violent relationship in Season Six.  But even this extreme violence serves a grand purpose when the mythic symbolism of trials of the heroes journey is applied.

From the perspective of mythic formulas of the "heroes journey," primarily of the work of  Joseph Campbell, the phase of the heroes trials and the symbols of underground/inner world confrontations and battles does work.  As a rite of passage and transcendence that brings forth Spike the ultimate hero of Chosen, all the trauma and horrors of his love of Buffy is the proving ground for Spike as the worthy companion and equal of the Goddess.  Spike and Buffy pass through the mythic trials of "the Heroic journey"  and come at last to their symbolic joining and transcendence in Chosen - When Buffy tells Agnel that Spike is in her heart, this is another recognition of the trials they both endured and passed with the leaving behind of their sexual connection. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 02 2008 09:55 pm   #83Eowyn315
Wasn't it old European legends that suggested tossing seeds or sand or something along the path of a vampire to distract them because they would be too obsessive compulsive to pass up counting or collecting them?

OMG, I'd never heard that before, but now I'm completely hysterical picturing Buffy throwing seeds and Spike going, "Oooh!" and getting distracted. LOL! Except, I think in Spike's case, it'd be more of an ADD thing than OCD. Also, I think a shiny thing would work better than seeds.

I'm willing to bet a dime to a dozen that in s1 and some of s2 Willow had pics of Xander, and maybe a shirt or something that smelled like him.

You'd maybe have an argument if it were just the pictures and the clothes. But when you add in the unwanted following her around on patrol, and skulking outside her window all night, spying on her and listening to her have sex with Riley, not to mention the roleplay with Harmony and the bot, it verges into creepy stalker territory. And yeah, that's what I'd call an obsession.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 02 2008 10:54 pm   #84Scarlet Ibis
spying on her and listening to her have sex with Riley

Huh.  I managed to totally erase that from my mind.  That trip down memory lane wasn't so fun...Honestly, I don't even get why the writers made him do that, but whatever. 

Okay, that aside, the whole shadowing her on patrol thing or whatever isn't so bad (in the she has extra help sense).  At any rate, Angel used to do it.  And role playing, well, I kinda rule that one out too.  Mostly cause it's harmless (fun).  I think the only thing that definitely gives him stalker status is the whole standing by the window while she's having sex thing.  Really, who wants to hear (and for vamps, smell I take it) that?  *shudders* Really creepy.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 02 2008 11:03 pm   #85Quark
Yep, gotta agree with Eoywn on that one.  A picture, a keepsake is fine.  Several would be slightly juvenile, but still only bordering or flirting with obsessioin.  Crossing over into what Eowyn listed above definitely becomes obsession territory.  And can I just as a eugh, eww to the listening Riley-Buffy sex.  Totally gross.

OMG, I'd never heard that before, but now I'm completely hysterical picturing Buffy throwing seeds and Spike going, "Oooh!" and getting distracted. LOL! Except, I think in Spike's case, it'd be more of an ADD thing than OCD. Also, I think a shiny thing would work better than seeds.

LOL, that's great.  I keep giggling.  Sequins! Can you imagine part of Buffy's slaying gear as a bag of vampire distraction sequins or buttons.  I can just picture her tossing them around like some kind of demented flower girl, "Just get counting already so I can stake you!"  Gaah! So funny.

Spike does come off as a bit of a magpie, doesn't he?
~ Q
Feb 03 2008 01:40 am   #86Eowyn315
can;t... type... laughing... too hard...
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 03 2008 01:44 am   #87Eowyn315
*deep breaths*

Okay. Better now.

Honestly, I don't even get why the writers made him do that, but whatever.

I can't recall if he did it more than once (that we saw - I'd imagine if he was out there as often as it's implied, he must've eavesdropped on Buffy/Riley sex several times, even if we weren't privy to it), but the one time that I remember, the reason was so that he'd be around to tail Riley to the vamp whores afterwards.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 03 2008 01:51 am   #88Scarlet Ibis
Yeah, but Spike hangs out at night, being a vamp and all, so it's not like they could'nt have had him see Riley around one night, and be curious and follow him...  In fact, in one of the scripts, and I think it was "Into the Woods," they describe Spike as meddling in Buffy and Riley's relationship when he shows her the vamp whore place (I can't remember the exact wording, but it made angry because that wasn't what was going on in the scene.  I don't think it was "Into the Woods," but a previous ep... I'll have to look it up).  I don't think it would've been any different had it been one of her friends (perhaps they would've sat her down first, but she wouldn't have believed them, and thus the whole "have to show" thing comes about again) who found out about Riley.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 03 2008 03:59 am   #89Eowyn315
Yeah, if it had been one of the Scoobies who caught Riley, they would've told Buffy, because they're her friends and they care about her. But I doubt Spike would've said anything to her if he didn't have feelings for her - he probably would've let Riley know he knew, and kept it as something to hold over Riley's head, in case he ever had a use for blackmail. Maybe you can interpret it as Spike feeling Buffy should know the truth, but I find it VERY hard to believe that at least part of him didn't see it as an opportunity to drive a wedge between Buffy and Riley.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 03 2008 04:49 am   #90Caro Mio
It helps that it makes Riley look bad, but he also cared enough to know what it would do to her if Riley was turned and came in the house with Joyce and Dawn. He knew it was important for her to see it for her own safety, as well as the light it put Riley into.
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Feb 03 2008 06:02 am   #91nmcil
Spike showing Buffy the vamp biting whore house was certainly a combination of thinking that she should know and wanting to drive them apart - but it was also Spike not understanding just how much he would hurt her as well - JM plays the exit from the vamp house in his typical great style and understanding - Spike is taken by surprise at how much this hurt Buffy and how he miscalculated just how much it did hurt her emotionally.  Spike Vamp it seems did not factor in the extent that seeing Riley like that, without any preparation would hurt Buffy - That should have been a good lessons to him.

One of the things that I really disliked about the Spike in Love story arc was this obsession spin - even to the point of having Spike breaking into Buffy's home to steal her underwear just before Joyce is scheduled for her operation.  That seems very out of character and a big error of judgement by the writers - Spike loved and admired Joyce, that character would not have done this action.  If the writers wanted to have Spike be on the premises with Buffy and helping her when Riley and the soldiers come to the rescue, they could have done something that did not cheapen the character.  We know that Spike is obsessed with Buffy and that he follows her on patrol and watches from the windows, but I think the stealing of her panties is a bit much, and especially the timing that the writers chose.
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Feb 03 2008 06:33 am   #92Eowyn315
One of the things that I really disliked about the Spike in Love story arc was this obsession spin - even to the point of having Spike breaking into Buffy's home to steal her underwear just before Joyce is scheduled for her operation. That seems very out of character and a big error of judgement by the writers - Spike loved and admired Joyce, that character would not have done this action.

I disagree. I don't have a problem with the obsession spin, and I don't have a problem with the perceived callousness of Spike stealing underwear while Joyce is in the hospital. Do I think it's creepy and inappropriate? Totally. Would it make Spike more appealing as a love interest if he behaved properly? Sure. But it wouldn't be in character.

Spike is a soulless vampire who, as we've already established on this thread, has very skewed notions of the proper behavior in a romantic relationship or in expressing love and affection. If he acted like a perfect gentleman and only ever did what was in Buffy's best interest or was considered the respectful thing to do, I'd say, "Who the hell is this and what have you done with Spike?" Sure, he's capable of some nice gestures, and he can pull through and do the right thing sometimes, but it is a struggle. He often doesn't know the proper thing to do, and it's through how he handles his feelings for Buffy (with stalkery, obsessive actions) that we're reminded he's not human, he's missing some obvious moral guidelines, and he doesn't know any better, since he hasn't exactly had a functional relationship... ever. 
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Feb 03 2008 06:56 am   #93Scarlet Ibis
Well, when he does try the whole "perfect gentleman" thing, he pretty much gets his hand slapped for his efforts.  In "Crush, before the whole Drusilla debacle, he ditches all of the black clothing and fell into the Gap, tries to be amicable with her friends, which he's rebuffed for, keeps Dawn safe, albeit in his crypt, but safe (which he also gets scolded for), has a pleasant visit with Dawn and Joyce, and then, Buffy gets all wigged when he holds open a door.  None of this works. So, later in the same ep, he switches tactics, drastically, to get her attention.  I'm sure if Buffy had said "thanks," and just kept on walking, not putting too much thought behind it, then the whole chained to the wall thing probably wouldn't have happened.
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Feb 03 2008 04:12 pm   #94Diabola
I'm colsing this thread because it is one of the two being spammed. Fell free to continue the discussion in a new thread.
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