BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

A difference...or not

Mar 26 2007 11:06 pm   #1FetchingMadScientist

Another conversation on the forum got me to thinking- Did the soul make all that much of a difference with Spike?  Did it change him at all, or make him any better than he was before?

Did the soul even matter at all-in the scheme of things?  What do you think?

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 26 2007 11:44 pm   #2DreamsofSpike

In my opinion, the reason the soul mattered was simply because it was *not* necessary -- but Spike's going to get it was what finally proved to Buffy once and for all that he didn't really need it.

Yes, Spike made a lot of mistakes in the show, including the infamous A/R that led to his getting his soul -- but *without* a soul he was so affected by what he had done that he knew he had to do *something* to make it right -- hence the soul-getting.

My impression of Buffy's reaction in "Beneath You" in the church scene was that she was finally understanding the depth of love for her that Spike had had all along, without the soul. In "Never Leave Me", she said "You faced the monster inside you, and fought back. You risked everything to be a better man." She was talking about going to get the soul, and *that* was what made her say, "I believe in you, Spike." Not the soul itself, but his willingness to get the soul.

So, irony of ironies, Spike's going to get the soul was important in that it proved that he never needed to go get the soul. :P

Mar 27 2007 12:46 am   #3Scarlet Ibis

I agree with DoS- having the sould didn't make the difference, but the fact that he went to get his soul- not just go to Willow and have her curse him, cause that would've been easy, but he took a long, hard, arduous road to get it, and then had to fight for his life before it was even given to him.  If he had passed the trials, and the demon didn't give it to him, I think it would be irrelevant to the audience for the simple fact that he did what no other has done, and he did it of his own volition.

He left to get his soul, and then came *back.*  I think that was important to mention too- Spike doesn't just run away...

Oh, and I don't think it changed him, but it made others realize what he was capable of, and how... honorable he can be without prompting.  The soul itself only mattered because the people around him couldn't see the good in him without it, which is sad really.  He had to prove who he was and his intentions by getting a soul, cause no one else would've recognized it had he not done it.  Even with knowledge of the soul, at first, the people on the show still viewed him as the same "evil" guy the first couple of months, which was retarded, IMO.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 27 2007 01:03 am   #4FetchingMadScientist

I don't think the soul mattered one wit.  It didn't change who Spike was.  It just made the others around him-Buffy included- look sad and pathetic.  The Scoobies didn't grow at all.  And don't even get me started on Buffy's attitude in "Get It Done."  "I want the Spike that tried to kill me...Weepy and wailed on..."  What?!

I just wanted to slap her!

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 27 2007 01:03 am   #5Guest

It changed him - not making him different, but making him more. He feels certain emotions more strongly, empathy comes more naturally, and the capacity for guilt is now a constant. There is a new weight to his quiet moments that was never there before.

Your correct in that it was necessary for the others to validate him and his acts. He proved something mind shattering to Buffy. And we can go on and on about how it was necessary to Buffy. There are things she never would have admitted about him without the soul. There is compassion she never would have shown without the soul. Hell, she couldn't even allow her own mind to accept certain things without the soul. So, I would say that it was necessary for their relationship to move forward.

Of course, I think with help, Spike could have been kept on the straight and narrow without the soul. But he would have needed that guidance and encouragement, as he couldn't relate to human matters in the same way as a demon.

Caro Mio

Mar 27 2007 01:07 am   #6Guest

FMS - yeah, that speech was about the cruelest thing she could say in public to him at that time. I understand what she was trying to get at, that they needed warriors, but man........ouch! Spike did what she wanted, though.

And oh, yeah, practically everyone paled in comparison.....

CM

Mar 27 2007 01:20 am   #7Eowyn315

I think it changed Spike - not by making him a better person, but by making him *think* he was a better person. Because, just like everyone else, Spike believed that he could never be good without a soul - otherwise he wouldn't have gotten it. Once he got past the guilt and the crazy, he seemed to have more self-respect and more self-awareness - like when he's able to see his s6 relationship with Buffy for what it really was. And that makes it possible for him to say "my eyes are clear" when she goes on her date, and "when I tell you I love you, it's got nothing to do with me." I think souled Spike views Buffy differently, even though he still loves her just as much.

Of course, even with the self-respect, he still kind of lets her walk all over him at times, but that's love's bitch for you.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 27 2007 01:23 am   #8GoldenBuffy

I have nothing to add but I agree with Scarlet and DoS, lol. And Cm pointing out what Buffy said to him was wrong. She cried on and on about how he'd never be good enough as a evil soulless demon, well he went and got the soul but she wanted the old Spike back. Which wasn't a difference. Shows some women can never be happy. lol

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 27 2007 01:43 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

Oh yeah- that comment *so* made me wanna kick Buffy in the face, or wish that Spike had at least punched her for saying it (she did say the "old" Spike, and Spike most definitely would've punched her in the face, or at least, said something disparaging about her for trying to embarrass him like that...).  That's why I didn't feel bad for her when she got kicked out of her own house.  However, that being said, if that had been me, I would've told all those bitches to leave, cause if they didn't like my plan, then fine.  But thye wouldn't dare let them kick me out of my and my *mother's* house- and I would've told Dawn to go to hell.

OT, sorry...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 27 2007 01:45 am   #10Maggie2

I'm basically with Caro Mio on this.  The soul didn't matter the way Buffy thought it did -- it's obvious that Spike didn't need a soul to not be Angelus.  But it did matter.  It took the soul for Spike to understand how messed up Buffy was in season 6, for example.  Without the soul, he had to look to her for guidance (What would Buffy do or think) -- and when she was in a seriously bad place morally and emotionally that means she was providing no good guidance at all.  With the soul, Spike can be his own man making his own judgments.  So while I hate all the "you have no soul" bigotry of the Scoobies, I don't swing all the way over to the "soul makes no difference" camp.

As for Spike growing more than the Scoobies -- big 10/4 on that.  As a demon he had the ability to admit that things were wrong and to try to do something about it.  None of the Scoobies managed that in B6.  But that's more of a sad commentary on them than it is a commendation of Spike.  Cause even if we explain away the demon eggs, and put the bathroom scene into context -- Spike was not an angel in B6.  He encouraged Buffy's estrangement from the others; he let himself be used even though it was horrible for both of them; and he was still committed to thinking of himself as the Big Bad (which would have been very bad for the woman in the alley way if Spike had not had his chip).  I love him like mad -- and I think he did quite well under the circumstances.  But if he had a soul, a moral compass of his own, he could not have done some of those things.  Still that he saw that he needed it, all on his own, --- Wow. 

Oh yeah -- totally hated Buffy in "Get it Done".  But she had other, better moments in B7 so I'm willing to hope in her future progress toward being a decent human being.

Mar 27 2007 04:54 am   #11FetchingMadScientist

The thing is, with or without the soul, Spike was still Spike.  Okay, maybe a little less ready to go with the fists and fangs, and he had the guilt; but he had that *before.*  And no one is a complete angel.  Spike had his moments, sans soul that were good.

The fact that he wanted one, yeah--wow.  I just don't think it changed *him* all that much.  What it did change was how Buffy looked at him- and that's what Spike wanted so- that's good in my book.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 27 2007 05:11 am   #12Maggie2

Oh, I totally agree that Spike doesn't change dramatically.  No Angel/Angelus deal going on (and isn't that kind of a lie anyway?).  But I think he does change.  He understands things better (cf. his conversation with Buffy in B7 about getting her self-hatred now).  As for him not being an angel in B6 -- it's true that nobody is perfect.  Still, Spike is aiming for good, but nonetheless allows his anger at Buffy to create space for him to try to bite alley way woman.  After the soul there is no temptation remotely like that for Spike.  A5 tries to show us many spots where it would be hard for Spike to do the right thing -- but Spike never misses a beat.  The temptations don't even slow him down. 

None of this takes away from the fact that Buffy places way too much weight on the soul.  Spike can obviously love without it.  And at least some change is possible without it.  In my mind, she holds on to the myth of the soul with all her might because without it Angelus could have loved her and tried to be good for love of her.  She's completely wrong about that. 

I just don't think we have to pick between a) Buffy being right about the soul and b) saying the soul doesn't matter at all.  The truth is in between.  One of those delicious complexities that Joss keeps tossing at us.  (Don't forget -- black/white views of ANYTHING is going to get knocked down bigtime in the Jossverse.)

Finally, I know that there's a general opinion that guilt is a wasted emotion.  And I agree that wallowing in it (ala the Brood-Meister) is no good at all.  Still, it's kind of squicky to think of being in love with someone who has killed tens of thousands of people, often for the hell of it (cf School Hard), and who has NO remorse for it.  Even if you want to write it off as being 'natural' for vampires to kill and therefore not something for them to feel guilty for it -- do you really want to be intimately involved with someone who doesn't get (at all) *why* it's bad to kill people?   Psychopaths = not so sexy, not really.   I like the way Spike handles the soul.  He definitely feels remorse.  But he's not wallowing in the guilt.  An improvement, IMHO. 

Mar 27 2007 05:32 am   #13Scarlet Ibis

Maggie- it's true, it's an in inbetween sort of thing, and the soul does help with his moral guidance.  However, my only thing is, with that woman in the alley in s6, the catalyst for that action was Buffy denying who and what he was at that point, and pushed him to do it.  I know- she shouldn't be his moral compass, but I do think had she been better, it wouldn't have gone that way at all. Her actions to him often caused his actions. 

In s7 when the First has him in captivity, a large part of why he doesn't give in is because "She believes in me," and "She will come for me."  Buffy tells him she believes in him (conveniently) right before he's captured.  Had she not said that, I do wonder how he would've reacted to the First's torture tactics...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 27 2007 05:39 am   #14Maggie2

Hey Scarlet -- I totally agree that Buffy played a big role in Spike's behavior in the alley way.  But after the soul, it's clear that he wouldn't kill the woman not just because Buffy believes in him, but also because he wouldn't want to.   That's a real difference.  He could have been better in B6 with Buffy's support -- but that goodness wouldn't be quite 'his' in the same way it is once he gets the soul.  Her encouragement in B7 helps him, but he's also helped by the soul.

Mar 27 2007 01:57 pm   #15Guest

The soul basically made him a grown-up, to sum it up. As a soulless vampire, Spike could basically live as a permanent rebellious teenager - teens strive towards chaos and shallow fulfillment, until respnsibilities start to sink in and settle them. Obviously, he had the wisdom/knowledge of his age, but his lifestyle was basically an adolescent's on a no-rule binge. And just as the show "Angel" was about dealing with growing up and the adult world and what to do in it, we see the fully matured Spike in Season 5.

Caro Mio

Mar 27 2007 04:34 pm   #16lostboy

I gotta go with DoS on this.  I think there's probably an even stronger literary precedent for this, but the whole thing totally reminds me of the final scene in "The Wizard of Oz" where the Wizard grants them all their wishes.  But they turn out to just be symbols of what they already gained on their journey by proving themselves against the Witch of the West. 

So in my mind, Spike's "soul" is a lot like the Lion's "badge" and the Tinman's "watch."  It's just a meaningless trinket, something to remind him of what he already found (or, if you like, what Buffy found in him).

Just my $0.02

Mar 27 2007 08:04 pm   #17GoldenBuffy

for me the woman in the alley way was spike's final attempt at being evil. that was what he knew and feared the change that was taking place. i never thought he'd follow through if the chip didn't work. by then he had already changed for the good.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 28 2007 12:27 am   #18Dead Man Walking

i agree with DoS.

Since everyone else has already stated my thoughts, that's all i need say.

Love the Wizard of Oz reference!

Mar 28 2007 12:38 am   #19pfeifferpack
ITA with everyone so far. I read David Fury say that it was the one non negotiable in ME that no soul meant evil at the core and Spike HAD to have the soul for them to write him as not evil (yeah, idiots who didn't watch their own show IMHO). I think the soul, as they wrote it might have made making "right and moral" decisions easier to make, easier to define, for Spike but that is all. He was already better than most humans on the show. Kathleen
Mar 28 2007 12:54 am   #20pfeifferpack
NOT meant to be preachy so forgive me if anyone is offended. I used the Buffyverse soul issue when teaching Sunday School to illustrate the concept of being "born again" and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Baptist church). I used Spike, soulless to show that you can do good and reject bad without the soul (born again state) but it is harder to make those decisions. With the soul (indwelling), the decisions become easier to see and compulsion to avoid the guilt is stronger. Both states allow free will choice to do good or evi (even souled/indwelt can chose evil) but it is most helpful in the decision making postion of the situation. LOVE the Wizard of Oz analogy, Lostboy...great use of that .02! Also about the alley woman...to me the major importance of that scene was the obvious visual dilema Spike experienced...he didn't WANT to bite her but didn't fully understand why. He was having to try to talk himself into it. His relief ("Nothing wrong with me, something's wrong with her") was amazing under the circumstance. He already saw NOT biting as normal and right for him! Go Spike!!!! Kathleen
Mar 28 2007 12:55 am   #21pfeifferpack
NOT meant to be preachy so forgive me if anyone is offended. I used the Buffyverse soul issue when teaching Sunday School to illustrate the concept of being "born again" and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Baptist church). I used Spike, soulless to show that you can do good and reject bad without the soul (born again state) but it is harder to make those decisions. With the soul (indwelling), the decisions become easier to see and compulsion to avoid the guilt is stronger. Both states allow free will choice to do good or evi (even souled/indwelt can chose evil) but it is most helpful in the decision making postion of the situation. LOVE the Wizard of Oz analogy, Lostboy...great use of that .02! Also about the alley woman...to me the major importance of that scene was the obvious visual dilema Spike experienced...he didn't WANT to bite her but didn't fully understand why. He was having to try to talk himself into it. His relief ("Nothing wrong with me, something's wrong with her") was amazing under the circumstance. He already saw NOT biting as normal and right for him! Go Spike!!!! Kathleen
Mar 28 2007 03:23 am   #22Spikez_tart

I want to agree that Spike was just as good before, but he wasn't.  Post-soul he is much less likely to taunt Buffy with some snarky and hurtful remark, he lets go of his moronic theory that she belongs in the dark with him, he's no longer the trickster, he doesn't give in to his jealous impulses (note his behavior when Buffy goes on a date with Principal Wood - Spike tells Buffy he's okay, when clearly he isn't), he stands up for himself (when Buffy grills him about what he does at night and later when he confronts her for kissing Angel and again when she leaves him sleeping alone while she goes to fetch the axe)*

He can control himself physically around Buffy (he can hold her without having sex.)  He's no longer a doormat.  When he gets angry (at Angel) he punches a punching bag, instead of somebody's face.  He puts up with Andrew.  Finally, he offers to leave if that's what Buffy wants.  Far cry from Stalker Spike.   

*  Buffy leaves Spike a note - who wants a challenge?  What did that note say?

 

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 28 2007 03:52 am   #23Guest

These are all things he was doing *Before* he had the soul. How many times in season 6 could he have hit the Scoobies for what they did to Buffy?  He's already proven he's willing to endure a headache circa season 5.  He slaps Xander upside the head.

There are boatloads of restraint there.

And- this is just a theory- What if Spike's attempts at dragging Buffy into the dark, were seen as attempts to pull *himself * up, and into the light with her?

All proving that Spike did not *need* the soul.

FetchingMadScientist

Mar 28 2007 04:12 am   #24Scarlet Ibis

I don't think snarky remarks are all that important- that, and he did give her some post soul.  He only said she belonged in the dark with him because, well, she was sure as hell acting like it.  In fact, we see Spike during daytime hours more in s5 then in s6, which is when Buffy tries to convince him most that he's an evil thing.

As for self control around Buffy- I think in s7, she was the one to exhibit self control- she started their sexual relationship, and nine times out of ten, was the one to initiate them having sex after the first time.  And I think the jealousy restraint and not punching Angel in the face- I think he was just tired by then; tired of fighting for the woman he loves affections.  The soul didn't change him much, but I think it did make him a bit weary.  We see glimpses of Buffy caring about him, but by the time Angel comes back on the scene, the last thing of significance she says to him is "does it have to mean something?" after leaving him the morning after.  So she left some note- the look on Spike's face did not scream "touched" or "awe" or "wow- she feels that way about me," it was mostly an "mmm, okay" face.

And- Spike hadn't been stalking anyone since s5...

And I agree FetchingMadScientist- when Spike had the Gem of Amara, yea, I know he's way impatient, but instead of enjoying the sunshine or whatever, he seeks out Buffy immediately, and I think that was because he was anxious to see her in her element- in the light...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 28 2007 05:24 am   #25Maggie2

When the Spike-bashing crowd wants to point to examples of "bad Spike" their examples all come from before the soul.  There's all sorts of stuff we have to explain away or downplay from before the soul.  Nothing after.  I agree that it doesn't make a huge difference.  And I agree that Spike was more than capable of doing good before the soul.  And I even agree that he could have done even better if he'd had more encouragement.  But there's still a real difference.  Even without any encouragement (A5), he's good and he doesn't engage in dubious behaviour and he frequently does outright heroic things.  It would help if we could be clearer about the nature of the argument.  It's not an argument that Spike was never good before the soul.  It's that he wasn't *as* good.

And hey, Scarlet, I've finally started reading some of your fic.  All the way is quite good -- but even you have to paint a rosier picture of Spike than the one we actually saw.  Your Spike is more thoughtful, more patient, more capable of self-restraint than was the canon Spike.  Dare I say it?  Your Spike is more soulful.  (Sorry, couldn't resist -- and yeah, your Buffy is less damaged).  Anyway, I'm enjoying your fic! 

Mar 28 2007 05:42 am   #26Scarlet Ibis

LMAO- thanks Maggie.  My Spike is only more "soulful" cause Buffy wasn't a total bitchy basketcase.  See?  Different circumstances (or different/nicer Buffy)= nicer Spike, IMHO.  Oh, and you're a Scorpio, right?  Kudos to us ;D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 28 2007 05:52 am   #27lostboy

I don't know.  I think I tend to think about this thing in simpler terms.  But it seems to me that motives are more important than actions when you're looking at good and evil on this sort of scale.  It seems like there's only two ways you can transform from evil to good:

1) The sudden Darth Vader/Road to Damascus/Constantinian stlye epiphany, where the sinner's heart is suddenly transformed by a higher power or calling and devotes his life to a nobler cause.

2)A slow process where someone's motivations for doing things gradually changes because of influences around them and an innate desire to improve himself.

If you apply this formula to BtVS, Angel is #1 and Spike is #2.  They were both basically walking versions of the 7 deadly Sins.  Their actions were mainly driven by stuff like greed, envy and lust, while the good guys actions were motivated by things like compassion and duty and forgiveness.

I mean, so Angel gets zapped with a bolt out of the blue, and suddenly he's got this "soul" right? Except, instead of getting all the rewarding experiences you get when you do good things, he is being cursed to endure all of the crazy downsides, like shame and regret and alienation.  Its not because he's "nobler" or anything, though.  Its because his insights came too easily.  He didn't earn them.

Meanwhile Spike's transformation is step-by-step, motive-by-motive.  All along the way from season 5 on, he gets to try his hand at things like compassion and selflessness, and he finds that even though its often a pain in the ass to be a white-hat, there are all these strange, small rewards he never expected, like intimacy and trust.  He kind of gets hooked on it, I think.  And even in the rape episode, he is driven away by an inherently good motive that he should be incapable of feeling: "remorse."  Not guilt or fear, which any animal can feel, but the kind of remorse that makes you decide to change course mid-journey.  Many people with so-called "souls" in the series failed that basic test (Warren springs to mind).

So basically, I thought it was pretty funny, that episode where he's fighting flame-fisted monsters and being eaten by beetles.  I mean, he didn't need to do all that!  He already won back his soul, he was just too daft to know it.  What a bloody plonker!

Mar 28 2007 05:59 am   #28Scarlet Ibis

Lostboy- excellent points.  Except... there was *ahem* no rape.  Loved the Wizard of Oz analogy too.

Oh, and someone mentioned that Spike presoul was like a teenager or something.  I agree- I don't see the soul as improvement so much as him just growing up some.  Same Spike, except now he's a man (you know what I mean...)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 28 2007 06:00 am   #29Maggie2

I knew you were going to say that (about your fic)!!!  We'll never know just how good he could have been with better treatment.  But we did see him do well with bad treatment in A5 -- so I stand pat on the "soul helps" position.  The getting of the soul still blows me away -- and I love that he got to save the world with that hard-won soul of his.

Alas, I missed Scorpio by a few minutes... I'm Saggitarius.  (And it's been so long since I did astrology, I can't even remember how to spell it!)

Mar 28 2007 06:11 am   #30Scarlet Ibis

Wait- what bad treatment on Angel s5? (scratches head)...  I thought the Angel gang treated him ten times better...  Please explain?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 28 2007 10:21 am   #31Guest

They were more...mature? about how they treated him, but he definitely wasn't welcomed with open arms. Finding out right away that he had a soul now did get him a free extra pass of marginal trust, but Fred was the only one to really be *nice*, or care. Spike was still very much the odd man out for a long time, because he was the new guy.....and obviously, their first allegiance was to Angel, their friend for years. There's the whole "Can I like Spike even though my friend Angel despises him?" syndrome.

And Spike could have taken the whole Lindsey jerking him around situation a lot worse, but he doesn't lose his temper so easily now.

That was me that mentioned he started out like a teenager.

Caro Mio

Mar 30 2007 05:10 pm   #32spikes_wish

Okay, I actually started a reply to this when it first came up, but it was late and i was sleepy, so it came out all rubbish. But reading what DoS right up the top there I find I don't need to, as that's basically what I was trying to say. So if you want to know my opinion on the soul that's it. Oh, and I think it did change him for the better, but wasn't strictly necesarry.

spikes_wish xxx

Mar 30 2007 05:11 pm   #33spikes_wish

Okay, I actually started a reply to this when it first came up, but it was late and i was sleepy, so it came out all rubbish. But reading what DoS right up the top there I find I don't need to, as that's basically what I was trying to say. So if you want to know my opinion on the soul that's it. Oh, and I think it did change him for the better. But again not necessay.

Apr 04 2007 08:53 am   #34Dead Man Walking

I think it didn't matter.

Spike showed he didn't need a soul, as he was all GUILT over the A/R.

think of Angelus, and how he wouldn't feel guilty if he did that to Buffy.

Apr 05 2007 12:41 am   #35GoldenBuffy

Of course we wouldn't have felt anything but "Told you so," if Angelus did that to Buffy, even if Angel snapped and tried that with her, I wouldn't have been uspet. I don't think I would have been angry either if he tried it. Not sure why, maybe 'cause right now I'm sick and I just feel... sick, lol.

I was pissed that Buffy drove him to do it. (Spike)

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Apr 05 2007 02:40 am   #36Scarlet Ibis

Oh, Angelus would never have attempted to rape Buffy; pshaw... If he felt like it, he would *have* raped her- no attempts, and laughed while doing it.  He was going to rape and kill Faith in Angel season four, but a large, broken window filtering bright sunlight allowed her time to esacpe.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 05 2007 03:09 am   #37hellbound

I'm with Scarlet. Angelous wouldn't have stopped. Which is why the whole soul thing after the bathroom scene never really worked for me; I was much more concerned (as far as Spike's debatable inherent evil-ness goes) about the comment he made way back in Bargaining about the biker demons' mayhem looking like fun. To me, the soul didn't make enough of a difference to justify what he went through to get it (before and in Africa). The catalyst was the would-have-been-rape. But why? A man, soulful or souless stops; a demon doesn't.