I was at work today and a random thought popped into my mind.  I know that a few people think that Angel is a pedophile for sleeping with Buffy when she was 16 but I got to thinking and realized that in the time period that he grew up in most girls were married and had one or two kids by the time they were 16.  What do you guys think?

~Ghost Writer

I have loved the stars too fondly to ever fear the night- Sarah Williams

I think that's probably a good point. From the pov of our modern times, a guy in his mid-late 20's hitting on a teenager is a bit of a creep - in his day, she wouldn't have been considered a child.  However, fanon, if not canon, has it that Angelus always went after very young girls - I don't know if that's from things said on the show or just a common fan fic idea.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me it was more the flashback where he is drooling over her at 15. And as 16 is the age of consent over here it isn't really an age related thing...it is just that he was so creepy and slimy about it *shudders*

It wasn't so much his age that disgusted me, it was the way he was so stalkerish and creepy about it, particularly in the flashback in Becoming.

I think you're right Ghost.  There's a piece on slayageonline about how in Angel's day, giving her that ring would have been considered getting married, too. 

Also, I might point out that another vampire was drooling over her in the Bronze when she was still sixteen.  Ahem.

Drooling over her is one thing. Peeking in her bedroom window is another. (Yes, I know Spike did this, too; but at least she wasn't a minor when he did it, lol.)

Again, for me at least, it isn't an age thing...it was just that Angel was so creepy and dirty-old-man-ish about it.

Yeah, there was something in his stare ... that was the clincher for me. For some reason, Spike's watching her (in season 5) seemed much less creepy. Maybe it was because he knew her by then and felt genuine affection for her. Angel was just lusting after and spying on a stranger.

In season two Spike was lusting after her, but not at her bedroom window. That, to me, was just nasty.

ETA: And as I said in my first post, the age wasn't a big deal to me. I mentioned it in the last post in defense of Spike. But regardless of age, Spike's interest in her was much less creepy.

Personally, the stalking seen in "Becoming" when she's 15 creeps me out.  Buffy's so innocent at that time.  She's a child who thinks that vampires only exist in movies.  She spends her time talking about boys with her friends.  Buffy's 16 when Angel (and Spike) starts to drool over her, but she's already starting to loose her innocence.  She's become the slayer, she's been kicked out of school, she's been in a mental institution, and her parents have divorced.  She's starting to wizen beyond her 16 years, but she is still young.  

Here's a thought: Maybe it's not Buffy's age that makes Angel creepy, but the way that he sees her.  Angel "falls in love" with 15-year-old Buffy when she's still innocent.  In fact, it's that innocence that draws him to her.  He tells her that she looked fragile, that he wanted to protect her.  Sound familiar?  Angel(us) was obsessed with human Drusilla because of her innocence.  Evil Angel(us) destroys Drusilla's innocence, but Angel tries to preserve Buffy's innocence.  He still sees her as someone to shelter, to protect.  

When Angel takes a bit of Buffy's innocensce by having sex with her, his soul takes a vacation, and Angel(us) proceeds to destroy what's left of Buffy's innocence.  I think that he succeeds, although inadvertently, when Buffy has to kill him.  That's the point at which Buffy looses all of her innocence.  

When he get's his soul back, he keeps trying to protect Buffy's innocence, but it's already gone.  Angel's still doing it by the time he leaves her "for her own good."  What Angel fails to realize is that Buffy's already a full-fledged woman at that point, hardened by slaying, Angle(us), etc.  Her innocence has left the building :-P

What was my original point?  Oh yeah...

It's creepy 'cause Angel SEES Buffy as a child and not as a woman.  THAT'S what makes him a dirty old man :-)

VERY well put, IB. That is exactly how I feel ... although I had no idea until you put it into words. :P

The fact that I dig older guys aside, (ahem) the only reason I didn't view it as totally creepy because I didn't see it as him just "lusting" after her.  I didn't see it as lust at all, actually.  I think he was awed by her, what she was, and knowing the responsibility that was about to be dropped on her.  He wasn't thinking "damn, I gotta hit that," or anything- and I didn't get that from his expression either.  And Spike, before falling in love with her, probably did lust after her- not because she was 16-17, but because she was the Slayer, which was like an automatic woody for him, and because Buffy just intrigued him in general, cause she wasn't "all business" and whatnot.  A lot of people clearly disagree, but that's just how I see it...

i like to give Angel the benifit of the doubt 'cause i still have a minor crush on him (shrug) but he did have his creepy moments.

~Ghost Writer

I have loved the stars too fondly to ever fear the night- Sarah Williams

I didn't think of Angel as creepy in that moment, either, when I watched it. The awe is a good factor to mention, and inspiration...in that she got him to clean up and stop living in alleyways. Annnd - he saw her as "hope". He'd lost it all for himself before Whistler dropped in and showed him Buffy, and suddenly, there was light at the end of the tunnel for him. Angel's a pessimist, but he's also a dreamer.

Caro Mio

Hmm... I didn't really think of Angel as a pedophile until someone else pointed it out, but when I went back and thought about it - it *is* pretty creepy. I think IB hit the nail on the head as to why.

The fact that Angel is attracted to her because of her innocence and purity is what makes it inappropriate, I think. He wants her because she is not much more than a child, and sure enough, their relationship falls apart when she grows up. And I don't buy the "girls married at 15 in Angel's day" - because it's not about age, it's about maturity. Yes, they did marry at 15, but they were prepared for it, it was socially acceptable, and at that point, they'd be considered a woman. Buffy, on the other hand, is nowhere near that level of maturity.

What makes Spike less creepy, even though it's a very similar situation (being attracted to a 16-year-old girl) is that he doesn't want her because of her innocence. He wants her for exactly the opposite - he's attracted to her as a warrior, and though she's young, he sees her as his equal match because she's the Slayer. And by the time he loves her for her goodness, she's a full grown woman, so it's not creepy.

The stalking is creepy for both - but again, I give Spike more leeway. Maybe just because I like him better, but also because there's a difference between stalking a 15-year-old and stalking a 20-year-old. Also, Angel had a soul when he was stalking Buffy, and Spike didn't - and that's supposed to mean something in the Buffyverse. So, really, Angel should've known better. Spike, maybe not so much.

No way Eow - Spike totally has the hots for Buffy right from the get go - the dance scene in the Bronze (background music - you brought me to my knees?) Here kitty kitty?  We don't need weapons?  They make me feel all manly?  Then, there's "Hey, cutie" and he lights up a cigarette.  The film noir fans in the audience know what that cigarette means. 

Interesting thought about Angel's picking away at Buffy's innocence before he sleeps with her. 

Angel peeking in Buffy's bedroom is way creepy.  He flips into vamp face as soon as she lays a hot kiss on him.  That connects with the idea of Angel chipping away at her innocence, too.

I don't think Angel chipped away at her innocence- Angelus did.  Also, Spike was mos def turned on by the teenaged Buffy, but I don't think that if presented with the chance at that point that he would sleep with her- it was more of a predator thing (and not the "sexual" kind of predator either).  

Spikez_tart- what's the cigarette reference?  And even if it relates to sex or something, he only came to her as a last resort.  JW didn't realize Spike had a thing for Buffy until s4, so it was probably an accident (the whole film noir thing).

Spikez_tart - Maybe you misunderstood my "warrior" comment. I definitely think he has the hots for her - but the *reason* he does is because she's the Slayer. If Buffy had been a regular girl, he wouldn't have looked twice. She'd have been food, and nothing more. Spike, as a vampire, never - in flashbacks or on the show - showed any real interest in a human woman. Except maybe Willow, but that was definitely more of an "I'm gonna kill you, but I'll be sexy about it" than actually being attracted to her.

It's because Buffy's a Slayer that there's any attraction there. In Fool For Love, I got the impression that he was a little lusty over Nikki, too. It's not about Buffy's innocence - it's about her strength, and the fighting turns him on - and sure, it helps that she's hot, but being hot wouldn't be enough without the Slayer part.

And I agree with Scarlet about the film noir thing - it was most definitely an accident/coincidence. Spike is a smoker. He lights a cigarette in tons of scenes, and it doesn't have to do with sex. In fact, by the time Buffy and Spike start having sex, he doesn't smoke nearly as much. Besides, it's pretty much established in Joss's world that cigarette = evil. Anyone who smokes is either evil, or about to die. I think that's about all the symbolism they attribute to cigarettes.

Just gotta add my 2 cents...

Angel spent what... 80 years feeling sorry for himself, drinking rats and living in alleyways and sewers...

Then WHAM... he's shown a 15 year old Buffy.... in a mini-skirt and pigtails... sucking on a lollypop... and feels an urge to... what?  Protect her?  Help her?   Sorry, I don't buy that.  He didnt' want to help, until he was shown an underage Buffy, then he's all with the "gotta help Buffy".

And after he's had sex with her, turns into angelus, gets sent to hell, and comes back... he doesnt even want to try and work things out?  doesn't even try and find a way to "anchor" his soul...  *snort*

Yeah he really loved her, so much so that he dumped her in a sewer "for her own good', and buggers off to LA (after calling their relationship a freakshow) where he promptly starts up with that blonde cop...

Sorry peeps, but in my mind, all angel/us was/is... is a pedophile. 

In regards to Angel being a pedophile, the evidence just doesn't add up.  Darla, Dru, the cop lady, Cordelia, Nina... none of them were girls, or looked as such, so I don't agree.  And as for him leaving, he left because Joyce asked him to, and because she *seemingly* had a point (the Mayor touches on it, and Joyce drives it home that Buffy will never have normal relationships with him around, though what they all fail to realize is that as the Slayer, she'd never know what normal was, nor would be whole heartedly accepting of it in the first place), so I get "leaving her for her own good."  Also, it was time for Angel to find his own path, and not just being Buffy's shadow or sidekick.  In fact, it's Buffy in early s3 who says she needs space, she's moved on, yada, yada, yada, and Angel's all "you'll always be my girl," and stuff. 

And what Buffy happened to look like at the time isn't what completely drew him in- he saw how tough it was going to be for her being new to the game and all, then he saw how rough her homelife was, and he was bored with being useless and whatnot, and figured he could do some good.  Being around her, it was only natural for feelings to evolve "in the work place," as Spike points out...

As for Angel's stalking, well, Whistler tells him to watch her, and let him know what he thinks...  Angelus' stalking of Buffy relates to her being the prey (like Spike in the beginning)- know what she's about, where she lives, etc.  Spike even has her recorded on video.  And Spike's later stalking when he realized he had feelings for her was more to wanting know why he felt the way he did, to double check and make sure he actually felt that way, know more about the things she liked...so I didn't see that as so bad.  Hell, even his little Buffy shrine didn't seem that creepy- it only seemed as such cause he actually knew her (let's face it guys- had Spike done that to some chick he had a thing for on tv- pictures of her, a life size object that favors her... I'm willing to bet if there was a Slayer *puppet* he'd have one for the hell of it.  Can we blame him and his infatuation? Nah).  The only thing I found to be creepy about Spike was listening to the Biley sex freak show.  How could he *not* have tossed his cookies during that?  Maybe it was a quickie, so he didn't have time.  That wouldn't surprise me...

He wants her because she is not much more than a child, and sure enough, their relationship falls apart when she grows up.

Right on, sister E!  Angel realizes that Buffy is growing up and will grow old while he will stay as he is--forever.  He doesn't want to deal with watching her age and die, so he leaves: out of sight, out of mind.  He turns tail and runs  away like a coward.  Angel tries to convince himself that he doesn't want to rob her of her youth, of her chance to be "normal."  Joyce tells him that he is.  What Angel and Joyce don't realize is that no person is standing in the way of Buffy living a long, normal life.  Being called as the Slayer has already done that for her.  To paraphrase Anya, the life of the Slayer is short and brutal.  Nothing can change that, not even a vampire boyfriend :-P  The only thing that Angel robs her of is her choice, and she's already had enough of that done for her.  She didn't choose to be the Slayer, and she didn't choose for Angel to leave her.  Buffy's an adult, but everybody goes on treating her like a child.

Buffy's an adult- true.  But she isn't one in s3, s4, or five, or six... it takes her a long while to get there.  The girl had extreme tunnel vision.  Not saying that Angel shouldn't have given her a choice, but she wouldn't have been given room to grow had he still been there.

Nope, Buffy shied from being an adult as much as possible. If it didn't include a choice for Slaying, she avoided it at all costs. Joyce spoiled her by not making sure that Buffy knew how to cook and take care of bills as an adult.

And frankly, break-ups ALWAYS mean that someone's choice is taken away, except in the rare instance that both come to the same conclusion at the EXACT same time. That's life. They didn't have a relationship all of season 3. It was over the moment Angel got sucked into that portal. Buffy had done her mourning and started moving on by the time the Powers dumped Angel back in the mansion. Picking up where they had been prior to losing his soul would have been going backwards. They both knew it, just didn't want to admit it, and that's why it took so long to make a final end of it.

They would have constantly butted heads as Buffy grew up if Angel had stayed. Or - Buffy would have become a meek little mouse and let Angel make all the decisions because she would have been *allowed* growth. And then there would be the tug-of-war between Angel and her friends because the Scoobies wouldn't have welcomed Angel in with open arms, and Buffy would have had to choose.

Looking at their relationship with emotional detachment, Angel made the right call. He needs a woman who isn't afraid to tell him to stop and think, and Buffy wouldn't have done that if he never left. She never would have tried to maintain independence, out of fear of driving him away, if nothing else. Child of divorce, after all.

CM

And yeah, I agree with Scarlet. Looking at all the other women in Angel's life, he doesn't have a pedophile tendency. Just a penchant for blondes.

Scarlett - Spike's Buffy doll and the pictures and then the Bot - Creepy.  I agree that Spike really got off on Buffy the warrior (more than the fact she was still a 16 year old baby) - especially in comparison to Riley who was freaked out by the whole Slayer thing. 

Why I think Angel was a pedophile isn't because he slept with a 16 year old Buffy but his first sighting of her.  He SAID he "saw her with her heart in her hands and wanted to help her"  what we SAW was Angel being shown Buffy at Hemery.  She was in knee socks, dressed VERY young and SUCKING ON A LOLLIPOP!  No heart anywhere in sight...just a very young looking schoolgirl right out of kiddie porn images.  Whistler even comments that "this Slayer must be better looking than the last one" when Angel suddenly gets interested in helping the girl out.  Oh yeah...all that purity and innocence rang his bell (and may be why it was SUCH a moment of perfect happiness....the Slayer was the embodiment of purity and good, wrap that in a not quite legal in many states package and you bet he was happy!  The ultimate defilement of an innocent and one that loved him to boot!).  

I also concede that Buffy has elements of Darla about her, only Darla without the corruption of evil and age.  Perhaps he was drawn to a young, pure version of Darla?  I don't think we'll ever know for certain but he did like young blonde innocent looking girls.

Kathleen

I've gotta agree with the whole pedophile thing.  Angel didn't suddenly wake up one morning wanting to do good; he didn't wake up one morning and want to help the Slayer!  He sat in a beat up car with blacked out windows and stared at a tiny blond girl sucking on a lollypop.  Angel spent years avoiding humans, but he knows enough about society to know that 15 year olds are considered children in this day and age.  And regarding Druscilla & Darla; Druscilla was innocence personified, regardless of the age she was when Angelus turned her.  She wanted to be a nun!  How much more innocent can you get?  And while Darla was a prostitute, the exact opposite of Druscilla, she was an expert at appearing innocent.  Remember her outfit in "Welcome to the Hellmouth"?  I don't think Buffy was Angel's first foray into the corruption of the innocent, whether he meant it that way or not.

Regarding Spike, while I'm definitely biased (and who wouldn't be! GAH!), I don't get the same vibe off Spike's stalker tendencies.  Maybe because Spike is so obviously Love's Bitch, just trying to catch a glimpse of the woman he loves.  I don't feel that Spike was obsessive in the way that Angel was.  Spike wasn't creepy, just lonely.

For me it was definitely the Lolitaesque scene where she was sucking on a lollipop that squicked me out. Add to that the total lack of chemistry and the way they act around eachother or when eachother is mentioned and I can't get behind Bangel at all.

Angel always acted like he was hundreds of years old around Buffy . Plus there's the fact that he was pretty useless when he first showed up. He got better later.

If they hadn't shown the Lolita scene , then the only reason to hate Bangel would be the lack of Chemistry , the way Angel is put up on a pedestal by Buffy , the way they act like thier soulmates but do jack to make a relationship happen, the way they make others miserable because of said relationship, etc.

So, still plenty or reasons. But one thing the Lolita scene does give us is this: If someone starts saying that Spike only helped Buffy to get into her pants we can that seems more like Angel's motive than Spike's.

For example:

Angel decided to help Buffy after seeing her sucking on a lollipop (sexual metaphor) -heightened by the i lost my soul because I banged Buffy

Spike first helped Buffy while still with Dru-Some may argue that it was because of Dru but he had to know Dru would give him hell over going against her Daddy-

When Buffy died , Spike stayed , looked after her siter , the Hellmouth and her friends -not knowing that she would be resurrected (thereby disproving the whole he did it to get in her pants theory)

When Buffy died, Angel went off to a monestary, not only did he not help her friends guarding the local draw for evil (granted there's a chance Willow told him it would be all right when she informed him of Buffy's death) but abandoned his own gig helping the helpless. Add to that , that when Buffy was resurrected , he summoned the recently undeceased , bad at driving Buffy to meet him instead of going to meet him and it counts against him bigtime.

It wouln't have mattered if Buffy was older , they don't fit together at any age.

ladycat713