Ok so lately I've been thinking about the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red" and the more I think about it the less it seems like rape to me.  Reasons being:

1) Buffy did tell him 'no' repeatedly, but when had no ever actually meant no before?  How was Spike supposed to distinguish between that and say the 'rough night' scene in the beginning of "As You Were" when she says no, and Spike keeps pushing until she says yes? 

2) Spike had always expected Buffy to be strong enough to stop him if she didn't want him to do something.  Although Spike notes that she is hurt, it is made very clear in "The Gift" that Buffy is stronger than he is by a comfortable margin (when, after Spike comments that it is too heavy to lift, she lifts Thor's hammer without even wincing).  It seems logical enough that he could have forgotten that in her injured state she would not have been able to fight him off as easily.  The look on Spike's face when she kicks him away makes it abundantly clear that he had no idea that she really meant no this time.  His subsequent quest for his soul reinforces that notion in my book.

3)  The fact that Buffy agrees to let Spike look after Dawn in "Two to Go(?)" says to me that Buffy knew that he was not trying to hurt her.  It just does not fit that the Buffy who was willing to sacrifice the world to save her sister would then leave her in the care of a potential rapist. 

4) Legally rape is classified as a violent crime rather than a sex crime.  This is because while sex crimes are about having sex with the victim, rape is about control over the victim.  Spike never showed any inclination for controlling Buffy, despite having numerous times when he probably could have.  IMHO if he had wanted to control her he would have refused sex with her until she told her friends or something of that nature.  True, in the beginning of "Entropy" we see him threaten to release the second vampire on her unless she tells her friends, but it always struck me as more teasing.  Besides he waits until she has already finished off the other vampire before releasing the second. 

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject.  I'm wondering: am I way off base or does that seem reasonable? 

No, I don't think you're off base.  I thought the scene was very powerful, and undoubtedly hard on the actors because it was a violent attempt to have sex with her.  But (kudos to James for being the fine actor that he is) I never, for one second felt that he was trying to control or hurt her - when he said, "I know you feel it when I'm inside you" (or whatever it was-something like that), the words and the frantic expression on his face broke my heart. And he was probably right - she could deny it all she wanted, but my guess is that when they were intimately connected, she did feel love for him  - and it frightened her. (That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. LOL)

It wasn't until she began to cry and plead for him to stop (by telling him she was hurt, BTW, not necessarily that she didn't want him) and he continued to paw at her while she was trying to crawl away, that it looked like a real rape attempt.  At that point, I think ,for Buffy, it did feel like rape because he wasn't responding to her very serious "no". I don't think it hit Spike until she kicked him off and he realized what his drunken state and frantic need for her to admit she loved him had let him to do her.  I thought her final words to him about never loving or trusting - whatever it was - were really unnecessary.  Their shocked and distraught faces said all there was to say about it.  Although I guess the writers felt that the final dig was necessary to justify his going off to get his soul.  I thought Sara did a good job with it too; she managed to get some devastated feelings into her expression along with the anger and disgust.

And, yes, it is very telling that, in spite of her "how could I ever trust you?" she is perfectly willing to allow him to care for Dawn.  She knows he's not a potential rapist and no danger to Dawn.  What was between them was between them and she knew that.  Too bad she let Xander draw his own conclusions about it.

Yes, that was very contradictory for the writers, wasn't it?  Try and make us not like Spike by having the bathroom scene and then Buffy turns right around and takes Dawn to him for protection.  Just showed us loyal Spuffy fans, that she forgave him for that just as fast as he forgave her for the alley in Dead Things.

Rape is about power not sex.  Spike had a visit from Dawn where she told him he had hurt Buffy by being with Anya (ie: she was jealous).  This fanned his belief that Buffy DID love him or she wouldn't have cared....he knew she had feelings that showed in actions while having sex.  The bathroom was about sex.  It was about Spike wanting her to have sex and admit that she cared.  It was not about power.  She said no all the time and then would initiate the sex herself so the word likely didn't even register with Spike. 

Buffy was stronger than Spike and could have tossed him through a wall if she fought hard enough......HE stopped himself when she threw him off and the "no" finally registered.  He finally heard it and knew she meant it.  AND HE STOPPED...the "soulless evil creature" chose to stop, because it was about having her admit love through sex, not power. He was in horror that he might have misread her feelings that badly.

No IMHO it was not attempted rape it was events spiraling out of control when two people had been dealing with a bag of mixed signals and denials.

I am quite sensitive to rape issues having survived it myself...this was NOT rape or attempted rape.  Had Spike not been drunk it would not have even gone as far as it did.  Had Buffy not already been injured it would have stopped before it did.  As it was it was a terrible, horrific misunderstanding that left both parties shaken to the core.  It made Spike determine to fix things so he would never lose control like that again (at least to his way of thinking....the soul would have prevented nothing actually but he had only Angel as a model and everyone was always going on about how Angel was "good" with that soul and so it seemed the right answer).

Buffy was willing to take Dawn to Spike becasue she KNEW he would never hurt Dawn and that he hadn't wanted to hurt her either.  She was clearly upset to find Spike gone but events were too important with Willow to take time to deal with what had happened.  Afterward, she went back into denial.  If anything she felt stunned that Spike had hurt her but I don't think she saw it as rape herself.

The real answer was given by the writers who explained that they needed to show that soulless Spike was still evil.  I don't think it worked the way they wanted except for people who already thought he was evil to begin with. *G*. 

Kathleen

Kathleen, you absolutely nailed it.  When I first saw this topic I was trying to formulate some thoughts, but luckily I didn't have to try to get them into writing, 'cause you did it for me.   Not that I don't think there couldn't be other interpretations--God knows if we couldn't interpret this stuff a thousand different ways this fandom wouldn't exist--but yours just felt true to me.

not to go off on a tangent or piss anyone off.  Rape IS about power, but I think it's a little silly to say it's ALL about power and nothing to do with sex.  Afterall a rapist has to get things up and running in order to carry out the attack.

Also, sex that isn't rape is often about power.  There may be love and emotions and all sorts of other things going on, but sex is a primal dance and it IMO is about power, and not just when it's kinky.  Whether anyone wants to admit that or not.  I don't believe power and sex are completely separate entities.

Also, one of the most common forms of rape is date rape.  Which happens generally when a guy "wants sex" and the girl doesn't and he has the moral code of a garden slug.  Note the "wants sex" of the equation.  If it's just about power he can punch her in the face, that's a display of power all by itself.

Again, not trying to piss anyone off, or pour salt in anyone's wounds but I think "rape is about power, not sex" is a pat phrase that everyone accepts and no one questions.

You're right, Zoe, in that the power is a turn on, and rapists think of sex in terms of power and no power.

Not picking on the guest - but don't we have a thread that's already hashed this out? I know we've talked about it a lot.....

CM

I agree CM.  Power would clearly be a turn on for a rapist.  There are different types of rape situations and I understand part of the "rape isn't about sex" thing has to do with some women's feelings that if they hadn't been sexually appealing to the other person the rape wouldn't have happened so therefore it's somehow their fault for being sexually appealing.

If it's ONLY about violence/power then maybe it's easier to deal with somehow.  And it IS true that some old ladies get raped.  So obviously it's not always about "sex."

But  it's never the victim's fault.  But we can't just act like some guy couldn't possibly have been turned on by the person he rapes.  Whether it's MORE about power/violence or sex (though I still hate to act like sex and power are somehow different entities) it's still OFTEN at least partly about sex, at least for the rapist.

It's my opinion that a forced violation is violation period and it really shouldn't matter what the rapist's "reasons" for doing it are.  It's still a crime and it's still a violation. 

Well, I think it's safe to say that the bathroom scene was not about Spike seeking power over Buffy, or wanting to have sex.  It was emotional, and let's face it- Spike was emotionally and mentally abused by the woman he was in love with for the majority of season six. 

I don't blame his drinking of alcohol prior to the incident- I blame that, which also means I blame Buffy.  Perhaps that sounds weird, being a woman and all, but knowing everything that lead up to it... That's the only logical conclusion.

And I just want to add that I was incredibly pissed off at whoever wrote in a long letter to the "Going Home Pt 4" or whatever its called s8 comic, repeatedly referring to Spike as a rapist, and stripping Buffy of all of her humanity in s6.  Did this F*&% tard even see season 6?  I think not!

I know James referred to the scene in "seeing red" as a rape scene/blatant attack and its not to be glorifyed in any way and it upsets him that anyone/fans would do that or justify spikes actions.

We do have to take into account his perspective because he had to act it out. I'm pretty sure he never watched the whole episode, as doing the scene really upset him. That was pretty much the last straw for his view of doing Method for TV. He stopped acting that specific way after season 6.

CM

That's a good point, Caro. He's said that he wasn't really acting by the end - the terror on his face is real, his terror at having to go through with it. Makes me wonder if we'd be as sympathetic toward Spike if James had been more in control of himself and given a different performance.

I would have still been sympathetic because no meant yes the entire season. Buffy had spent all of season six playing games she didn't have the emotional maturity to be playing.

Yeah, a lot of my sympathy does stem from James' real reactions (in addition to the facts).  It's nothing wrong with him being brilliant at acting though :D

And amen, Zoe.

No matter how much sympathy we may have for Spike (and I have a good bit), he did try to rape a woman who was injured and pleading with him to stop.  I think the tears and the "please" instead of the usual threats might have been a clue he should/could have picked up on in terms of how serious she was. So, I can also sympathize with James who was playing a man trying in a very rough way to force sex on a woman he claimed to love.  And I agree, the horror on his face probably didn't involve much acting. That's assuming they only did the scene one time, anyway. I thought Sarah did a great job in that scene also.  It wasn't until she tried to crawl away, begging him to stop, that it began to feel like a rape attempt to me.  Then I began to see it from her pov, rather than Spike's, and it became something different from just another 'Spike tries to convince Buffy that she loves him'.  Both actors did a great job with that scene and managed to pack a lot undercurrent of emotion into it.  I think much of Buffy's emotion stemmed from her own disbelief and horror that the man who loved her so much could do this to her  - and Spike's came from much the same place.  I felt that they were both wearing 'how did we get to this point?' expressions on their faces, although Buffy's quickly became verbally combatitive.  The look she was wearing when Xander found her huddled in the corner, though, was more heartbroken than angry, I thought.

 No matter how much sympathy we may have for Spike (and I have a good bit), he did try to rape a woman who was injured and pleading with him to stop. 

Yes - if it wasn't a rape - why does Buffy allow it to be called an attempted rape?  Shouldn't she be the one to intrepet?  Here's how Buffy tells Xander.  Xander finds Spike's coat and goes into the bathroom (doesn't this door have a lock?)

XANDER: What did he do?

Close on Buffy's legs. Her robe hangs loosely and one thigh is exposed, with a big ugly bruise on the inside of the thigh.

XANDER: Did he hurt you?
BUFFY: (sighing, shaking her head) He tried. He didn't... 

(She doesn't call it rape, but it's implied from the way her clothes are open and she has a bruise on her leg.

As to Dawn, Buffy doesn't exactly have to trust Spike.  He's still got a chip in his head and Buffy is the only one he can hurt.

XANDER: (quietly) You're not gonna really leave Dawn with Mr. Attempted Rape.
(Buffy does not correct him re the rape charge.)

BUFFY: (quietly) He won't hurt Dawn. I, he-he physically can't. Besides, he wouldn't.

I think she's more afraid to correct a friend than anything else. If she's corrects Xander, then it leads to other questions she doesn't want to face about the true nature of their relationship and feelings. It's easy to let him go on thinking that.

 That's assuming they only did the scene one time, anyway.

Nah, they would've done it several times - even if it only took one take each time, there were still several camera angles, so they would've had to do it a few times. I would imagine that would be worse, to have to keep acting it out over and over... especially for a method actor who wouldn't really shut it off in between takes. So, he'd get more worked up every time, and that would feed into the scene, which probably freaked Sarah out, too.

I think this WAS an attempted rape. It wasn't Spike's intention going into the bathroom, but he DID try to force her to have sex with him. Nothing anyone says can make that ok in my mind. BUT there are things that also play into it.

1. If they two of them were a human couple, Buffy would be in jail probably. For the entire season, SHE was the abusive one in the relationship, both physically and verbally/emotionally.

2. No had never meant NO before and so to some extent it is understandable that Spike wouldn't pick up on what she actually wanted right away.

3. I know that no woman deserves to be raped, so I don't want anyone to take it like that, but she pushed him to it. She really screwed with his head with her on-again off-again hot/cold behavior.

4. Honestly, Buffy has done a lot worse to Spike but it is never portrayed that way because she's human and he's just some evil monster supposedly.

5. He was so horrified by his brief loss of control/misunderstanding off what she wanted that he runs off to AFRICA to make things right.

All things considered, the relationship in season 6 was just...bad. It was unhealthy for both of them and they both came out of it with a lot of scars. So yeah, he tried to rape her but it wasn't rape like most people think of it IMHO. It was an act of desperation mixed up with misunderstandings and too much booze that lead to badness. Also, I really do think that Buffy could have ended it a lot quicker if she'd been so inclined. I think that some part of her probably DID want him, she always did before, but she was still hurt about the whole Anya thing and it made her resistence seem more hesitant that Spike probably would have expected from a Buffy that really didn't want to be touched. By the end I think Buffy's reaction was a combination of hurt over Anya and the betrayal she felt about that coupled with her shock that Spike would have actually misread her so badly and do what he did.

Finally I think that Xander really put the rape label on it. If he hadn't shown up so quickly after it happened, I don't think she would have been calling it rape. I think, more likely than not, she would have gone and kicked Spike's ass and they'd be still caught in that horrible cycle.

Had Xander not walked in, I'm fairly certain Buffy would've said absolutely nothing about it- she tries to hide it from Willow.  And yes, Buffy's stronger than Spike, but if Spike wanted to overpower her, particularly in that moment, he could have.  In "Out of my Mind," when he jumps on Buffy to bite her, the only thing that stops him is the chip- not Buffy.  She just lays there, waiting for him to sink his fangs in.  After she pushed him off in the bathroom, had he really had malicious intent, he would would've snarled, shifted to game face, and pounced back on her to do what he "intended" to do.

Every other time, when Buffy said stop or no, he'd say make me.  Well, she made him, so he stopped.  It was a first for them.

A good example of her "no" but really "yes" behavior is the Doublemeat Palace ep- first time he shows up, she tells him to piss off.  Second time, she quickly fixes her hair before meeting him out by the dumpsters.  He doesn't even have to *say* anything.  Yeah, that's showing him you don't want any... Go Slayer.

Oh, and rape is easier to define.  However, attempted rape, I think, has to go towards intent.  Like if one were charged with "attempted murder."  The attempted part of the equation implies that they failed at what they initially intended to do.

I feel that there was no intent to rape her.  And come to think of it, his "going to make you feel it" and so forth I think is nothing but an echo of Buffy begging him to make her feel.  We weren't there for every one of their trysts- perhaps something similar occured before, except for her actually meaning the "no" this time.

Exactly, if it was a criminal case, they would be examining Spike's *intent* that night. And there's no way his conscious intent was to *rape* her.

 It was an act of desperation mixed up with misunderstandings and too much booze

I disagree about the too much booze during the bathroom scene.  Spike was tanked up when he had sex with Anya, but by the time he gets to Buffy's house, time has passed. (a day?)  He makes a perfectly sober, rational and heartfelt apology to Buffy for his behavior with Anya.  Buffy is too hurt to accept the apology and things quickly escalate.

Spikez-tart-

When Dawn comes to visit him, its clear he's been drinking a lot more, mixing it with the blood (he's holding a glass).  In fact, he seems a bit wobbly on his feet.  But then Dawn guilt trips him, and that's when he goes to see Buffy...

Hello! scarlett2u coming out of lurkdom here. I've been meaning to reply to this post for days. All the previous posts have made excellent points. To which, I have to add this: a rapist by any other name would smell just as crappy. And that other rapist would be Xander.

A Tale of Two "Rapists"

Season 1. The Pack. Hyena!Xander attacks Buffy at the high school. You want to talk chilling scenes? This is one of the chilliest. Of course, afterwards, Hyena!Xander morphs into Amnesia!Xander and Giles even backs him up--knowing he's lying to his best friends *and* the girls under Giles' charge. Well, isn't that a convenient resolution for everyone?

Flash forward to season 6: People can debate both Buffy and Spike's motives, true feelings, and intent, but the aftermath is inarguable: Spike was deeply shocked by his actions and truly repentant. He never tried to pretend it didn't happen and he never tried to shirk responsibility.

He simply performed a confusing monologue (hello, ambiguous writing!) and set off to make certain that Buffy would be forever safe from him (at least, to his way of thinking).

My point here is not "Xander bad, Spike pretty"; it is rather that while Spike might have lost control, he also gained perspective, a mission, a soul, forgiveness and redemption. For Spike, the incident was a catalyst, not something to be swept under the rug and forgotten. And definitely not something Xander was in any position to judge him for.

scarlett2u

What Hyena Xander did isn't Xander's fault. He didn't ask to be possessed. I think he handled the aftermath like any 16 year old would, he asked his friends what he had done, they told him that he ate a pig and maybe hurt Willow's feelings, seeing how he hugged Willow saying that no one shall hurt his Willow. He looked at Buffy asking her if he had done more, she had a dismissive smile and said, "Nah." I guess Buffy's reaction to what Hyena Xander did helped Xander to lie. He possibly thought that if he pretended he didn't know, there will be no uncomfortable tension between them, especially when Buffy didn't look heartbroken about it.

With Spike, it was Spike who did it, he wasn't possessed or anything. He was the same soulless Spike we knew the whole season. When he realized what he had tried to do, he chose to make it right for Buffy. What soulless Spike did isn't souled Spike's fault. Xander and Dawn shouldn't blame souled Spike but their resentments are human reactions which I don't blame them for, the way Buffy looked in the bathroom, bruised and heartbroken, of course Xander would be upset, if he didn't then he's not her friend, if he wasn't overprotective of her after that he's a jerk with no feelings. I think later in season seven Xander was able to forgive and accept Spike later and Dawn probably did because she said she'd check on Spike in one of the episodes I don't remember its name.

Scarlet - obviously I haven't been obsessing enough about Buffy and will need to re-watch that episode six or seven times.  Still, according to the Girl in Question episode (A5) vampires have a hard time getting or staying ? drunk since Angel and Spike are sucking down all those little bottles of booze on the airplane and complaining.  Not that Spike ever seemed to have a problem getting drunk and staying that way before.

Re Xander:  He didn't choose to be possessed, but he did choose to lie about what he did.  On the other hand, when Amy's love spell went wonky and Buffy was all over him, he turned her down.  Also, he turned her down when she got drunk in Beer Bad.  He gets credit. 

Joss just had to have Spike do something so horrible that he'd have to get a soul.  Since Spike hates Angel so much, it's a wonder he didn't think of it before.

The thing about Xander is - he doesn't lie about what he did, he says he doesn't remember it. He never tries to tell Buffy it never happened - and Buffy's the one who matters, since it's between the two of them. Buffy obviously knows what he did, and doesn't get upset with him or blame him. It's not really any of Giles' or Willow's business unless Buffy wants to make it their business. 

I would guess that Xander was pretty horrified about what he'd done (all of it, not just with Buffy) once he was no longer possessed. But it's not like he can really do anything - the way Spike gets a soul to make himself "better" - Xander's already unpossessed, so he can't get any better. I think pretending he doesn't remember is a pretty normal reaction for someone like Xander. That way he can feel out their reactions without too much shame. And I think if Buffy had said, "Yeah, you attacked me and tried to rape me," he would've been sincerely apologetic (after all, he does have a crush on her), although not really taking the blame for it, since, as Buffy said, "It wasn't really you."

[Xander] he doesn't lie about what he did, he says he doesn't remember it.

Duh - saying you don't remember is a lie. Xander should have apologized and Giles shouldn't have let him slide (since he's the Dad for the Slayerettes). 

I think by that time Giles isn't really a father figure to any of them, he doesn't know them all that well. He's just fatherly with Buffy. I don't think Giles should be blamed for Xander's lie, it's none of his business and he didn't interfere. If Buffy was heartbroken by the attempted rape, he might have said something to Xander, but Buffy and Willow chose to not tell Xander about what happened. Why create an uncomfortable atmosphere when everything that had happened wasn't Xander's fault in the first place?

Spikez_tart, there's a difference between lying about what actually happened and lying about not remembering it.

And I agree with SpikeHot about Giles' relationship with them. This was an early season 1 episode - I would argue that he wasn't even fatherly with Buffy at that point. He knows he's supposed to remain professional - I don't think he really gets "fatherly" until Prophecy Girl, when he's suddenly faced with losing Buffy.

And I also agree that, since Buffy obviously wasn't upset about what happened, why make a big deal out of it? Xander clearly was possessed, it's not his fault, and there's no reason to believe he's going to do it again. Why make an issue out of something that it's obvious BOTH Buffy and Xander are willing to forget?

I think it depends on the amount of alcohol- Spike is drunk in "Lover's Walk," and refers to getting pissed many during s7.  It's possible for vampires to get drunk, but probably depending on what and how much is consumed.

And... I don't see much diff between soulless Spike and Spike with a soul.  Had he been human, the moment of the return of his soul would be the equivalent of an ephiphany, and he learns and grows.  I don't feel that the soul altered his personality, or the choices he'd make.  It gave him a new perspective on things, however, but to me, it wasn't a huge alteration of Spike.  The only thing big and important about it was the fact that he willingly sought out a soul in order to be a better man.  Had he not succeeded in actually obtaining one, he still would have succeeded simply by trying to achieve it.

I think the hyena possession with Xander called up something that was already there and lurking.  I don't think he would have been possessed if that something wasn't there to begin with.  Xander always had the potential to be very very dark, he was just more often than not shown as a bumbling idiot, but he could be a true villain.  If we want to talk intent Xander wins the intent award over Spike any day of the week because Xander has always had the character makeup of an abusive jerk.

I think it depends on how you see a character. To me Xander is a good guy with flaws. I never thought he had it in him to be evil, I mean he ran away when he saw that he would be an abusive jerk toward Anya. A person who is afraid to turn into an abusive jerk like his father is a good guy in my book. As well as a person who got disgusted with the idea of killing Ben to save Dawn. As Tart said earlier Xander had his chance to take advantage of Buffy in Bewhitched, Bothered and Bewhildered as well as Beer Bad but he didn't, because he's a good guy.   

Not agreeing that Giles isn't the father figure - even from season 1 - true, he's still trying to maintain distance, but he's working in a school and all adults at schools get some sort of parental aura whether they like it or not.

Xander is not a psychopath - he is Everyman - he's a regular guy who is sometimes good and sometimes bad.  He can be pushed into doing something really bad (staking Spike because he had sex with Anya) or doing something really good (handling an apocalypse in the basement while Buffy's busy fighting dragons and never even mentioning it.) 

Thanks to everyone who helped me hijack this thread.

most villains aren't psychopaths.  It's their humanity that makes them compelling.

 most villains aren't psychopaths. 

No, they aren't which is why making Xander into one is not really canon.  This must be a fave Joss theme - anyone can go off the deep end if they get pushed hard enough, which I totally don't agree with although it makes for fun fiction.

making xander into a villain or making xander into a psychopath? Cause I can see xander as a villain.  And I DO believe all people have the potential for evil inside them.  I'm sure nature plays some role, but I think nurture plays a pretty strong one as well.  Anyone can be pushed too far.  Sure, not everyone can be pushed so that they are cutting people up and putting them in their freezer, but that's a psycho, not a villain.

With Psychos it's all about the crazy, so there isn't really much rhyme or reason for the behavior.  It's why I think people focus more on "psychos" because it's scarier to think anyone could kill someone.  But I really think anyone could, given the right set of circumstances to happen to them.

You can look at someone who is all sweetness and light and go: "that person could never kill someone." well no, not right now...but with the right set of circumstances you don't know what someone is capable of.  Humans are predatory animals, and sometimes we turn on each other.  It usually isn't rape or murder, but it's little things.

It didn't take much for Buffy attempting to kill Faith- all she had to do was attack her current boyfriend. Forget that she tried to choke Xander to death- pashaw.  And it's Xander, and not Spike (though I'm sure he thought about it, but didn't bring it up cause he assumed the Scoobies wouldn't go along with it) who suggests killing Ben cause he wasn't "Dawn innocent," and Giles who carries it out by smothering him, which seemed a tad bit personal, if you ask me...

And even though those were about murder, it wasn't necessarily about a "villain" or a psychopath.  Just my two cents.

true, not everybody who kills someone is necessarily a villain.  My point was simply that human beings are predatory animals and we often try to pretend that we're not.  Sometimes we even make up imaginary creatures to represent our darker natures...such as vampires. ;)

It does come across an attempted rape to me as much as I am loathe to say it. If I had never watched a single episode of Buffy leading up to that scene I would have stated it unequivocally. However, given their relationship up until that point, it seems to me that Spike intention wasn't so much to force himself on her sexually as to get her to admit that she felt something for him. Also, to me, the scene in Dead Things when Buffy beats Spike mercilessly is more egregious that the bathroom scene in Seeing Red. It infuriates me that Spike reacts by going and getting a soul to be a better man whereas Buffy didn't so much as apologise to Spike for beating him (at least not onscreen).

oh I know, the dead things thing pisses me off too. 

100% agree- the writers tried so hard to make Spike look evil, with the bogus eggs in "As You Were" and then SR, when all they did (IMHO) was make Buffy look like an abusive bitch who neglects her sister for the majority of the season.

Ditto.

That beating in Dead Things makes a really good jumping off point for changing Spike's direction, because Buffy was so horrible. Instead of showing up for her birthday after that like a whipped puppy, he can say "The bitch isn't worth this" and get his rocks back.

I really hate that she never apologized for that on screen, let alone admitted he was RIGHT about not throwing her life away so hastily. Buffy wouldn't even entertain another idea besides that she had killed Katrina, she was so dead set on rotting away in prison. Didn't even care what she'd be leaving Dawn to with that action.

Caro Mio

okay not to completely pimp here, but this is actually appropriate here so...

On my comm sub_slayer, the July fic challenge involves "dead things" and it being a catalyst for Spike handling Buffy a different way.  I'd love submissions to this contest or just readers when we get it.  Here are the rules:

http://community.livejournal.com/sub_slayer/2197.html

Good pimping, Zoe.  You're tempting me to take a walk on the really kinky side.

Scarlet - I hang my head in shame.  I thought I was obsessed with Buffy, but I see now that I am a rank amateur.

Lmao, Spikez_tart.  Perhaps here, that might be considered bad.  But in RL, you'd be considered more... "normal" between the two of us, so kudos to you :D

Oh, and Xander didn't necessarily stop an apocalypse- just a bomb.  However, if the bomb had went off, it would have killed his friends who were trying to actually prevent an apocalypse, causing them to fail, and then the apocalypse actually occuring... So yeah, I guess Xander did help stop not one, but two apocalypses all on his lonesome.  Go Xander, and I am such a BtVS Geek!! (does- well... would do the Snoopy dance if I knew how)

hehe spikez_tart please do!  Also though it's okay not to write overt kink, spike just has to dominate buffy in some way.  It doesn't have to be what one would automatically consider kinky.  She just has to submit and him dominate.  It can often be done very powerfully without whips and chains and such. :)  But if you want to write whips and chains...yay! ;)

Scarlet, Xander demonstrates the snoopy dance in season 5 episode "the replacement" where he is split in two.  Watch it, rewind, watch it, rewind.  Learn it. Live it.  Love it.  Bitcas.

i was thinking long and hard about this the first time i saw the rape/attempted rape scene i was like OH MY GOD!! then however after thinking about it i realised how many times did buffy say stop it? and when spike said make me she just let him carry on doing what her was doing and obviously through out the whole sexual relationship she always said no when she meant yes and i can understand why spike carried on even though she said no in seeing red however when she was crying and trying to get away i think he would have relised but he was obviously caught in the moment and when he was kicked off buffy you saw the reget and how sorry he was in his eyes and his facial expresions (go james marsters) and then he went to get a soul to fix it which i think he partly did because when ever buffy was being a meany she always brought up the fact he couldn't have feelings because he was a vampire like in dead things she said while she was pounding on him

your a disusting evil souless thing you can't feel anything i could never be your girl"

she always brought up the evil souless thing and i don't think xander ever got over obsesion with buffy he hated angel and spike i think he was jelous what does anyone else think?

Just a side note.  This is from an article in the American Journal of Psychiatry.  It is frequently cited in discussions of rape.

<i>Am J Psychiatry 1977; 134:1239-1243
Copyright © 1977 by American Psychiatric Association

Rape: power, anger, and sexuality

AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom

Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important inunderstanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate inevery rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate ineach instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could becategorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) oranger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes inwhich sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service ofother, nonsexual needs.
</i>

So was Spike angry? More like frustrated and desperate.  Was it rape? Really so many more ways to read the circumstances.  I would hesitate to categorize it as such.

Kathleen

Whatever Buffy had said to Spike, it doesn't excuse what he did. He shouldn't have done it. If we could excuse Spike's attempt of rape, then we also should excuse Buffy's ill treatment of him, she was going through a very hard time. But there should be no excuses. Season six was about every character screwing up, except for Tara I guess. Buffy for her treatment of Spike and neglecting Dawn. Dawn for stealing and being whiny. Willow for abusing magic. Xander for walking out on Anya. Anya for choosing to be a demon again. Spike for his attempt of rape. Giles for leaving.

As for Xander's feelings for Buffy. I don't believe he still wanted her the way he used to. I think his reasons for disliking Spike had more to do with Spike being a vampire who had hurt them in the past. Or else he'd also be against Riley, Ben, Wood and so on.

 Riley, Ben, Robin all had no chance with Buffy. They didn't light any passion in her at all and Xander knew it.

How do you know that? She was really into Riley in season four, she ignored her friends to spend time with him. She clearly seemed to enjoy the sex. She probably even loved him. If Xander was still into her, he'd be jealous. In fact, why would he argue Buffy to run after Riley if he still wanted her? Why would he fix Buffy up with his friend from work? If Xander still had feelings for her, they're clearly toned down since season three. I don't think he still wanted her in that sense. Or he'd be as jealous as he used to be in the first two seasons whenever she found someone who's not him attractive.

Spike in season six in my opinion is also to be blamed for the unhealthy relationship he had with Buffy. He also, like her, would ask her to leave him alone when he's pissed at her way of treating him then follow her again. Same with Buffy's way of yelling stay away and then she'd go to him. Both had been awful to the other. I dislike Spike in Dead Things more than in Seeing Red, I hated the way he spoke to her in the balcony. She was already too depressed and he was putting her down even more, followeing his selfish act with sex. I hated him in that scene. As for Seeing Red, he was forcing his love on Buffy, who clearly didn't want it. He may not was able to rape her, but he tried to. I agree that he didn't come to her bathroom (I hate how everyone kept bursting into the bathroom like that, isn't there any privacy in the house?) to rape her, but what happened later was Spike trying to force Buffy to love him verbally and physically.

She was really into WANTING to be into Riley.  Angel left her so she could go normal and he was her shot at it.  Willow pushed Riley and after meeting him so did Xander.  Riley even noted more than once that Buffy wasn't really in love with him.  She wanted to be very badly (just as later she very much DIDN'T want to feel love for Spike).  Riley was also her rebound guy who had very similar traits (physical and personality wise) to Angel.  I never saw her being "into" him at all.

Speaking of rape and "wanting it" or it "turning into sex".......I have brought up that invisible Buffy pushig Spike against the wall and forcing herself on him was not consensual and it led to the consensual but when he told her "No" and meant it she still went down on him....that was rape IMHO..No is no for girls as well as boys.  Whenever I mention that I am told that I am wrong because "Spike wanted sex with Buffy so it wasn't rape"....well... a case can be made that Buffy wanted sex with Spike too most of the time but just as in SR her NO meant no so did his in Gone...only we call what he did attempted rape and her going down on him is "funny" or "he wanted it".  Fair is fair.  Her acts in Gone fit the power aspect better too.

Kathleen

The Gone scene was clearly made for laughs, something I dislike about the show. They treat certain things in a funny way so fans wouldn't consider them "bad", and in return we see other events being treated seriously so fans would take them seriously. Sadly, the Gone scene goes right in the comedy category.

The difference beweetn Gone and Seeing Red was that Buffy's reaction to Spike's attack was different from his reaction to her going down on him. Spike wasn't scared, or yelling, or desprately trying to push her away, or crying, he was as calm as they come. Moreover, Buffy going down on Spike was as he had said "cheating", she's trying to get him interested so they could have sex, she wasn't really forcing him to do so. So, even though her action can be considered as bad, I don't see it as rape. Buffy can rape Spike easily, especially in her situation in the episode, but she didn't.

I don't think you could have done the scene in Gone with the genders reversed and have the invisible slayer character come off as OK.  But I agree that it isn't the same thing as what we were supposed to be watching in the bathroom scene.

My problem with the bathroom scene is that I don't buy for a second that Buffy would ever plead and cry.  I think she'd toss him to the wall -- which is what she, in fact, does.  And I don't see how Spike would have expected anything other than a violent response from her if he had really crossed a line with her.  Heck, she'd punch him in the nose for no good reason at all -- he'd expect to be thrown to the wall if he crossed a real boundary.  So that makes me not able to react to the scene as 'rape' either.  Real rape victims don't have the ability to beat the crap out of their assailants whenever they want to -- and Buffy had that ability.  I know we're supposed to think that Buffy's 'injury' had incapacitated her -- but since she does throw him to the wall that doesn't make any sense.  In any case, I think trying to paint Buffy as a victim was a real disservice to women who are actually victimized.  And it's also an attempt, I fear, to white-wash her behavior up until that point.  Not only could the scene from Gone not be filmed with genders reversed; neither could the alley scene have been filmed with genders reversed -- at least not without having the slayer character become villainized.  All the excuses people make for Buffy (he asked for it, she was in a bad place, she was really beating up herself) would not be allowed if it were a man who had pummeled a woman's face into hamburger.  And the double-standard here is particularly annoying since Buffy is supposed to be a feminist icon.  The lesson we learn is that when men abuse their power they are evil; but when women abuse their power we are supposed to blame the victim or at least not worry about him.

I think the reason Buffy didn't throw him right away was because she was shocked. We all know she had feelings for Spike and also trusted him, even though she keeps telling herself she doesn't, and seeing him act that way startled her. She was confused, as she kept asking him what was he doing, then the "No"s came. Spike didn't stop, Buffy was hurt and shocked, and appearently couldn't think sraight. I guess she never thought Spike would ever attempt to hurt her that way. Once she grasped the situation, she acted.

I've tried to watch the scene that way, and it just doesn't work for me.  Buffy reacts to Spike in anger, whether he deserves it or not.  That's been true all along.  She always shows him her 'tough girl' face.  And they've been in plenty of physical fights before.  True, once we're into the scene, I can see her realizing that she really had trusted him and that trust is now being broken.  I just can't buy that they even got that far.  She'd have reacted angrily, not pleadingly.  And he'd have been punched in the nose long before we get to her begging him to stop.  So for me this scene still sits there as a contrivance on the part of the writers that just doesn't work.  And it's frustrating, because I don't want to just say the incident doesn't matter.  But because I can't believe that things would have transpired that way, I don't know how to give it meaningful weight, either.

Think of it this way.  Buffy really does think Spike is beneath her.  She has total confidence in her physical and moral superiority to him.  How could there possibly be a moment when she reacts to him as if she's his victim?  But that's what she does here.

Buffy would never beg Spike for anything (maybe an orgasm). That's what it comes down to. Completely out of character for her to plead or beg.

CM

You know, the "Gone" scene... You do realize it was cut, right?  It couldn't possibly just go from "hey, that's cheating" and Buffy releases him to find her clothes and leave.  There had to have been some kind of struggle, and then her realizing that yes, he means it, and he doesn't want it right now.  So that entire ep is unfair in a lot of ways.  Or the beginning scene, when he realizes it's Buffy twisting his arm and throwing him into the stone wall, her response is "stop trying to see me," and then she tosses him somewhere else.  We never get to see his inititial response.  Maybe he said no then too, and it was probably ignored by Buffy, cause hey, she's stronger, and is all "woe is me," and damn it, she should get to have her way with whom and when she wants to.

So the one time she actually says no, and the tables are turned, and  even though she's been stronger than him the entire time, whooping his ass for no reason up and down Sunnydale, and taking from him whatever she pleases-- his love, his body, and using it against him to meet her own agenda, why, we must side with her!!  She has a vagina after all, and by default makes her the victim in this scenario.  Um, yeah right.

And I'll admit, yeah, Spike stuck around for the abuse, and it pissed me off, but I can't blame the victim (not fully, anyway, and definitely not more than his victimizer).  She *conditioned* him all those months to be brutalized, and that whenever she inflicted some kind of pain on him was her expression of love or some sort.  She started those games.  She gave him a lot of half hearted, sorry ass "no's" long before SR, and were we really expecting Spike, when he's clearly distraught, emotionally upset and a bit drunk to see the difference?  No.

Users are abusers, and Buffy was clearly both that season.  Her behavior was the catalyst for his--she set all of it in motion.  Had she treated him better, none of that would have happened in the first place.

(steps off of soap box)

Oh, and she didn't love Riley- she admits as much in "Into the Woods," and how he was supposed to be "dependable," and Xander points out that Riley wasn't State Farm.

I've avoided this thread because, quite frankly, I don't want people hunting me down,lol but here goes.  I agree with Scarlet.  Abuse is Never Okay, no matter the gender of the abuser.  There is no excuse- Ever.

This thread asks the question: Was it rape?  The answer is: Yes.

But the victim of that rape wasn't Buffy--the entire sixth season, the victim was Spike.

Oh FMS...:::kisses you:::... nicely put!  YES and yes again.  Maybe that's why I so identify with Spike and his misery  it speaks to my own experience and I relate.   Okay, enough from me before I'm told that my experience isn't being looked at correctly *G*.

Kathleen

FMS, you scared me for half a second there, until I read the very last line of your post, lol .  And I agree with you about actual rape occuring that season.  However, and unfortunately, in the court of law, unless a woman uses an object, it's called "indecent liberties," and not rape.

Or so my law teacher told me.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In season 6 both Buffy and Spike used each other. Both were jerks toward the other. If Spike was a victim in gone, then Buffy was surely a victim in Seeing Red.

I love Spike, but I don't see him as the abused one in the whole season. He was being a jerk to Buffy on many episodes, including Smashed and Dead Things.

buffy always started the cruelness though with in smashed her saying he was conviniont you could tell how much that hurt and in dead things was i thje only one who saw the scene where buffy beat the crap out of spike and left him to die? which he would have he hthe sun came up and he couldn't get up!! buffy brought him being a jerk to her on herself.

okay i have always hated seeing red for several reasons but also hated the way it was handled.  first all it was not only spike's fault it was buffy's.  both are to blame.  but spike knew he was wrong and we out to get forgiven and did buffy once say sorry to spike for what she did.  Did she tell the others that she was partial to blame did she once tell them not to blame spike. NO she let Xander say what he wanted and let Dawn hate spike in return ruining their friendship.  Buffy not once felt sorry for her part in the mess.  But she was quick to forgive Xander and he pretended to not remember what he did and Giles agreed and went along with him pretending.  If you really look at the picture and ask who are the real monsters you will see it is not Spike

in dead things was i thje only one who saw the scene where buffy beat the crap out of spike and left him to die? which he would have he hthe sun came up and he couldn't get up!! buffy brought him being a jerk to her on herself.

Except for the part where Spike was a jerk in that episode *before* she beat him up. The fact is, they were both pretty shitty to each other for the whole season. It was like a spiral - Buffy would be a bitch, Spike would be a jerk, Buffy would beat Spike up, Spike would make Buffy feel ashamed... and on and on it goes. Either one of them could have stopped the cycle, and neither did, and I think they both had selfish reasons for letting it go on.

actully buffy wanted to feel and spike just wanted to help her as he said he's love's bitchhe'd do anything for buffy including being pushed and pushed to the brink i really hated buffy in season 6 yeah she came back from heaven but making yourself feel better by screwing a vampire that loves you it was just plain wrong as in real life to you should never take advantage of someone's love which is exactly what she did. and buffy was always cruel to spike which he put up with because loves's bitch aand she was taking advantage she was the one in the wrong not him yes he said somethings he shouldn't have and he shouldn't have tried to rape her but i can't help but think she brought it on herself a little by pushing him to the edge

Hey Eowyn, 

I basically agree with you about the spiral.  I'm harder on Buffy about it all for three reasons:  (a) She's the one with the soul.  Soulless Spike is supposed to be incapable of being good.  That he does as well as he does is remarkable.  (Though I remain firmly in the camp that says that he did need to go get the soul).  In any case, Buffy doesn't have that excuse.  And depression -- especially when she actively resists doing anything about it -- doesn't cut it for me.  (b) She started the spiral by initiating the sex, knowing perfectly well how he felt about her.  We've been around on this issue before.  I've been on the Buffy side of this before, myself.  And I think I was an awful person for having done so.  (c)  Unlike Spike, Buffy never takes full responsibility for her share of the badness.  And this is probably the critical difference.  We get a few very small gestures in season 7.  But it plays out as though she thinks she's the one who has to forgive Spike, and that she doesn't need some forgiveness herself.  Spike went out and got the soul, came back to Sunnydale to labor in her war without any expectation or hope of ever having his love requited.  Thats some serious repentence.  And since I hold Buffy more accountable in the first place, the fact that their efforts to make amends were unbalanced in the other direction just makes it worse.

In fact, I fear it has fatally put me off the character.  I wish that weren't so.  There is much to admire.  She really was in a bad place in season 6.  She really does grow and get better in season 7.  But without a much clearer recognition that she FELL in season 6, I can't give full credit to the moving on in season 7.

My other problem is the implicit sexism I've talked about before.  Any show that depicted Biff the Vampire Slayer punching Spiketta's face into hamburger would have made Biff walk through valleys of repentence before re-admitting him to the hallowed circle of heroes. Much like the show made Spike work hard for a place after the supposed rape scene.  Not fair to blame Buffy for the twisted sensibilities of the writers.  But emotionally that's how it plays out for me.

QUERY (small point): What did Spike do that was so terrible in DMP (the episode before Dead Things)?

yes she was a bitch to maxium degree and of course take it out on spike is what she does.  but does she take it out on the ones who deserve it no of course not they can do no wrong Giles almost gets her and her mom killed on her 18th b-day she forgives, xander tries to rule her love life by not telling her that willow is doing the soul spell and he tries to rape her.  no problem all forgiven. willow again tries to control her life and takes her out of heaven moves into her mothers room and does she get a job to help pay bills in buffy's house do you see her working at the doublemeat palace to help out.  but no buffy forgives her also but spike she beats and screws him over and over.  shoot even dawn kicks her out of the house and buffy forgives her but not once did any of them say sorry to her or go get a new soul for her.  And Angel oh my he tried to terroize her and tell her what to do and how to live her life and he did not want her to go with her life but it was okay for  him to go crushing on kate cordy and have sex with eve and have relationship with nina.  and of course screw and have a baby with darla but no buffy forgives him and can do no wrong

yes she was a bitch to maxium degree and of course take it out on spike is what she does.  but does she take it out on the ones who deserve it no of course not they can do no wrong Giles almost gets her and her mom killed on her 18th b-day she forgives, xander tries to rule her love life by not telling her that willow is doing the soul spell and he tries to rape her.  no problem all forgiven. willow again tries to control her life and takes her out of heaven moves into her mothers room and does she get a job to help pay bills in buffy's house do you see her working at the doublemeat palace to help out.  but no buffy forgives her also but spike she beats and screws him over and over.  shoot even dawn kicks her out of the house and buffy forgives her but not once did any of them say sorry to her or go get a new soul for her.  And Angel oh my he tried to terroize her and tell her what to do and how to live her life and he did not want her to go with her life but it was okay for  him to go crushing on kate cordy and have sex with eve and have relationship with nina.  and of course screw and have a baby with darla but no buffy forgives him and can do no wrong

Yeah, the main thing I remember from DMP was that Spike said she was too good to be working there. It was primarily a Buffy ep, and a Willow helping Buffy ep.

Maggie2 - I'm pretty much about with you in Buffy, as well. The ultimate blame does sit with the writers, of course, but they made Buffy pretty unlikeable. I could respect the character so much more if she had taken steps toward amends to who she hurt like Spike did.

k.

Maggie, I agree with you that Buffy should get more of the blame, for all the reasons you mentioned. But I don't like it when people portray Spike as a saint in season 6 (or, well, ever), hence my comments about both being at least partially responsible. The fact is that he was a jerk a lot of the time, and he made several very, very wrong decisions. Granted, he didn't start the whole destructive cycle, but he could've ended it, and he didn't, not until he'd done something so heinous he couldn't live with himself. The fact that he sought redemption makes him infinitely more forgivable than Buffy, but it doesn't make what happened any less wrong.

I think, as much as Spike wanted to help Buffy, I think he was at least partially selfishly motivated by the fact that she was willing to have sex with him. I mean, he demonstrates it pretty well in Seeing Red - he thought that the sex would make her love him. So, no, he's not going to tell her to stop, no matter how much she's using him or how much it's destroying her to do it... because he thinks if they have enough sex, she'll admit she loves him. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if part of him thought, "Well, this is as close as you're gonna get... better enjoy it while it lasts." So, again, he's not going to tell her no.

I also wonder how Spike, as perceptive as he is, could have been in this relationship with Buffy and not seen what it was doing to her. I mean, this is the guy who could tell Buffy and Angel would never be friends, who knew Willow was barely hanging on by a thread when Oz left, who figured out exactly which buttons to push to make the Scoobies fight with one another, who understood Slayers so intimately when he talked about a death wish. You're telling me he didn't realize that Buffy was using him? He really thought that letting her use him was helping her with her problems? He couldn't see that the sex was just making the situation that much worse? Soul or no soul, it's a little hard to believe that a guy who is so perceptive of people around him could have so little self-awareness. That's why I have trouble with the "he was only trying to help her" argument. Maybe that was part of it, but there had to be some selfishness clouding his judgment.

QUERY (small point): What did Spike do that was so terrible in DMP (the episode before Dead Things)?

Nothing in DMP. If you're referring to my comment about Spike being a jerk before the DT beating, I was referring mainly to the balcony scene in the Bronze. I think we've discussed that before, and you may have a different interpretation than me, but I saw it as Spike being a jerk.

It's easy for Spike to point out all that stuff to others, though. 1) It hurts them. 2) It's not about him.

How many of us in love let things slide that we would NEVER condone in someone else's relationship? We do it because being alone is more painful than being with that person. I think he trusted Buffy's judgment enough that she really would end it when she said she was if she felt it was truly bad. She kept coming back and coming back, and even having brief moments of niceness with him, so he focused on the hope. And from a vampire's view, there's *always* time. They got caught up in it, stopped talking, and blinders were worn.

Okay- Spike saying a few naughty things (in DT) in no way compares to the abuse he got from Buffy.  Spike's been saying "bad things" to Buffy for years.  I don't see how that's even an issue or why it's even brought up as meaning anything in the grand scheme of things.

Being perceptive in other people's relationships has nothing to do with being perceptive in your own.  An outsider's point of view is the key, and basically, the only person Spike was able to talk to about it was Clem, and I'm thinking he had about zero experience in the relationship department.

Once again, I agree with Maggie- people keep getting sidetracked with the double standard, even if said double standard isn't being said by the people in the "Team Buffy" camp.  And if we're going to be hung on double standards, than yeah, Buffy should be more to blame for the simple reason she has a soul, and should really be better than other humans, being on a mission from the PTBs and all, and therefore makes her worse than Spike several times over.

And as for Spike, allowing the sex and abuse and whatnot, I honestly think that he did believe that it would help Buffy, even if he was wrong.  And if he'd cut her off first, which he probably did several times anyway, it wouldn't have mattered because she controlled their relationship.

And no, I'm not saying Spike's a saint, just that Buffy's way more to blame.

thank you scarlet couldn't have said it bettter myself

Thanks ;)

Just wanted to add quickly that if we're counting the throwing of verbal barbs, let us not forget that the morning after Buffy initiated the sex, she was the one quick to leave, referring to the night they spent together as a "freak show," and treating him like an oversized piece of sh-- Mr. Hanky for no good reason.

Hey Eowyn,

The balcony scene was strange, no doubt.  But I don't see that as remotely setting the stage for the beating that follows.  Imagine a gender reversal.  Woman comes onto a guy in public and says he belongs in the dark with her, blah blah blah.  Then a few scenes later he's pounding her face into hamburger.  Anyone who even suggested that she had it coming would be held to be the worst kind of sexist.

But that's a quibble.  I think we're really on the same page with this.  I understand wanting to emphasize Spike's part in things if you have in mind the St. Spike crowd.  Though to be fair to them, they usually are minimizing Spike's part in the ugliness because they don't think Buffy got held accountable for what she did.

Spike should have walked.  After Gone at the latest.  I do give some credit to the theory that he thought things would be worse if he did.  But I think it was mostly that he really didn't understand what was going on.  He assumed that Buffy wasn't the kind of girl who would sleep with someone she didn't love.  And I don't think it was until after he got the soul that he could get closer to the truth, which was that she was sleeping with him out of desperation and some kind of desire for self-punishment.  Anyway, because he never questioned that she must love him (since she was sleeping with him), he figured it was because she was in denial.  He thought it was cause she wasn't accepting her dark side.  But then he could never distinguish between her 'dark' slayer-based side and genuine evil.  Neither could she.  And so all these issues got set into play, and neither one of them got close to getting a handle on it. 

Also, I think he was rather desperate.  The guy had no place in the world.  No room in the vampire world.  No room in the human world.  Buffy was like a life-line to him.  So he held on.  I guess we could call it 'selfish' -- but desperate people are that way.

Both problems were greatly exacerbated by Spike's own unwillingness to commit on the evil/good question.  He doesn't abandon the label of being 'evil' until after the soul, but then can't understand why that's a barrier between him and the humans whose company he craves.  Getting the soul was the decisive move to break the log-jam.

Scarlet nails the lack of insight.  He was too close to see clearly.  And, again, his assumption that Buffy must love him would have led him to misunderstand what was going on with her, and thus not to see how the relationship was destroying her (by letting her be a monster). 

The balcony scene was strange, no doubt.  But I don't see that as remotely setting the stage for the beating that follows.

I never said it did. The original comment was that Buffy deserved Spike being a jerk to her because she beat the hell out of him. I was simply pointing out that Spike being a jerk came before the beating.

As for the rest of it, we've had this discussion eight or nine times now. I don't think it's going to change any.

 It looked like Buffy forgave Spike quickly in season seven about the attempt of rape, I'm leaning toward the 'he has a soul now' reason. It makes me a little sad that the soul was the sole reason for her to trust Spike. Dawn, on the other hand, didn't forgive Spike, even though he has a soul.

I agree with what is all being said it being both thier faults.  and buffy forgiving him just for his soul so what is her excuse she had a soul the whole time just like xander, willow but do they except what they done they have killed, attempt rape and abuse physically and mentally everyone they think they are better than.  who made them god

As I remember Buffy, Xander and Willow eventually admitted that they have screwed up and felt bad about it. Season six was about everybody screwing up and dealing with consequences. This is one of the reasons I loved the season.