I just recalled a conversation I had with a friend awhile back about how each new generation of fictional character is really just an amalgam of characters and pop memes and what-not that came before. 

I got to wondrin' how well that hypothesis would stand up to the Buffyverse.  There seemed to be a few characters that fit the bill, Spike in particular.

Anyway, here's a list of a few inspirations for the character from mass culture I came up with: 

Alex (A Clockwork Orange)
Well,  aside from the obvious passion for action and a bit of the ol' "ultraviolence," I think the writers pretty much stole "The Ludovico Technique" wholesale for describing Spike's plight (and subsequent transformation) throught seasons 4 and 5.  Also, there was Alex's and Spike's anachronistic approach towards music and fashion - Alex towards neo-classical largess, Spike towards punk materialism. Sub' blood for milk, and ya almost got twins.

Billy Idol
Well, I don't think it's a stretch to say Spike's look and feel was stolen almost wholesale from Billy.  That whole coiffed, carefully cultivated pop/punk aesthetic that made you think of someone who was rebelling more against themselves more than against any established social order.  I can almost hear the pitch at that first writer's meeting.  "Picture Billy Idol with yellow eyes and a severe case of cystic acne!"

Any others?

I dunno...I see shades of Houer's (Have no clue how to spell his name. lol) character in "Blade Runner."

Well, James always said Spike was more Sid Vicious or Johnny Rotten than Billy Idol....It seems that's how they first talked about it to him.

But yeah, nobody's exactly unique anymore......

Yeah I could totally see that, FMS.  The whole, misguided "search-for-life" thing they both had going (I think the character's name is "Roy").  Good one!

Doesn't every show have a hot Lothario type of character?  Isn't Spike a little bit of him too?

I guess I see what you mean, SI - like some standard sexy bad-boy archetype.  But I dunno - wouldn't they have had to pair him with some unlikely girl in the earlier seasons (i.e. pre-season six)?  Until then, it didn't seem to me like they really "wrote" him to be a lothario/rebel-heartthrob type.... or maybe that's just some kind of straight male blinders I'm wearing. :) 

There was no one else really to fit the bill- there's always the one sexy, bad boy type of guy.  And unlikely girl? As in... Harmony?

I waited to post this one because I thought it was a given.  Obviously, it's not.  Has anyone thought that Spike, and Angel too, might be drawn from, ::Gasp:: Anne Rice's anti-hero "Lestat" and the maudlin and guilt-ridden "Louis?"  That allusion might be the reason that Spike referred to "The Anne Rice routine" in "School Hard."

And, I have to disagree with SI.  I never saw Spike as a lothario, even in later seasons.  I don't know, maybe I'm too stubborn.  I just never saw Spike as a bad guy, no matter how hard the writers tried to make me see him that way.

That may have something to do with the fact that I was older than the target audience when I found "Buffy."  It may also be the reason I never fell for Angel's "tall, dark, and brooding" routine. :)

Oh, I didn't mean bad as in "evil," but that's what the writers want you to think.  The guy that's always portrayed as the bad guy, but is really just kinda anit hero-ish.  Trust that I am one of the *biggest* Spike supporters, and will debate to the end how awesome or not guilty he is in regards to whatever.  But you can pretty much think of any show, see who's type cast as the proverbial bad boy, and if you really pay attention, see how bad he's not.  It's always the "goody goody" who makes them appear that way.

Lex, Pacey, Brian ("Queer as Folk"), Dr. Christian Troy, I dunno, name some other show, I'm sure there's one that sorta fits thats description.

mmm dr christian troy *drool*

um erm.... sorry *red*

 Spike, and Angel too, might be drawn from, ::Gasp:: Anne Rice's anti-hero "Lestat" and the maudlin and guilt-ridden "Louis?" 

Ick Ick Ick - Actually, I think Spike was drawn from a character called Bill Sykes in David Copperfield.  Joss W is a big Dickens fan. 

Bill Sykes is actually from Oliver Twist, unless he used the same name for a character in DC. Having only seen the musical (I was in it, actually, in 6th grade) and not read the book, all I really remember is that Sykes was intimidating and abusive and beat his girlfriend to death with a stick...

lostboy thats a really horrid icon of poor Bigwig in watership down..... It'll give Anya nightmares...

Ayna.s therapist

 Bill Sykes is actually from Oliver Twist,

Right you are, Eow - I was having a brain cramp this morning.  Bill Sykes was no good, but he did love his Nancy.  Naturally, he displayed his love by slapping her around.  There's also a character named Giles in OT. 

Bill Sykes is a good one I guess, although Spike seemed a bit more polished somehow.  Same answer for Sid Vicious.  Spike was a murderous letch, for sure, but IMO he had a bit of pizzaz and joie-de-vivre that these other two seemed to lack.  Still they work, and I think Lestat might work too, if only for the mysterious need he seemed to have to be close to human-like emotions. 

Here's two more that may or may not be controversial:

Han Solo (Star Wars):
Hey - he starts out as a murderous, duplicitous, debt-dodging pirate and winds up saving the galaxy.  Plus he was smarmy as hell and had to put it all on the line before the girl of his dreams admitted she loved him.  I mean, someone please tell me I'm nuts for thinking that Spike's death scene in Chosen wasn't a total re-tread of the freeze pit in "The Empire Strikes Back."

Fonzie (Happy Days):
Okay -- bear with me.  Aside from the leather, the rebel 'tude and the Fonze's general snarkiness with the 'squares,' there was also his whole living arrangement.  Early in the show, the Cunninghams weren't always so thrilled with the prospect of some hoodlum living over their garage.  Also there's the whole character arc thing.  If I remember correctly, Fonzie was a fairly minor character when the show started, but as the years wore on and he became increasingly popular with audiences, they expanded his role almost to the point that he was the main character and even gave him second-billing in the credits. 

Okay, flame away *hides*

Well, Han Solo wasn't laughing as they froze him.

And I was *totally* thinking about the Fonz too- I just didn't wanna be the first shmuck to say it, so thanks :D

 I'm totally with you on the Han Solo thing.  I expected Spike to say, "I know."  I mean, he read her so well, at least the things Buffy wouldn't admit to herself, that it was almost scary.  When he didn't say it, I was like, "WTF..." :)

Yep, good catches, Lostboy. They both fit quite well.

I can definatly see Han Solo, and I can see the Anne Rice, Louis and Lestat, for both Spike and Angel. I always ended up liking Lestat more, Loius just seemed, kinda whiny.

Yeah FMS... but believe it or not, I really *loved* the fact that he didn't say "I know."  What a great twist... the best thing about that show was the way it denied you everything you wanted.  Mutant Enemy = big, brainy tease.

I'd offer one more:

The Tin Woodsman (the Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
I've often had an urge to write a Buffyverse AU based on Oz.   Spike would make a terrific Tin Woodsman.  It's hard to explain if you're only familiar with the movie version, but the Tin Woodsman was an extremely bizarre and ironic character, often expressing a "humanity" that was somehow more genuine than that of his meat-and-bone companions - but without ever really understanding how human he was.  I dunno - has anyone read these and can dig this?

I read all the Oz books about 150 times when I was a kid.  I think it goes like this:

Buffy = Dorothy

Willow  = Strawman (Brain)

Xander = Cowardly Lion (Bravery)

Spike = Tinman (Heart)

Tara = Glinda the Good Witch

Giles = The Wizard (Don't look behind that curtain)

Joss is such a major thief.

Hee! this has been an awesome discussion. Totally can see the Han Solo and the Fonz.  Not as sure about Lestat - but it's a great discussion anyway. :)

Spikez_tart, the Wizard of Oz thing definitely works for the later seasons, but it's hard to say it was deliberate, considering two major players (Spike and Tara) weren't in the show when the other four characters were conceived. 

I think the topic of this thread is sort of proof that there aren't really any new ideas out there. Just about every character or plot is in some way one of the classic archetypes. So, it's not really fair to call Joss a thief, any more than every other writer out there.

Tart, I agree with all of those except for Willow (though I kinda think I know where you're going with it).  I think my scarecrow would be Andrew or maybe Harmony or even Cordelia.  Willow just doesn't seem ditzy enough to me.  Glory would be my Wicked Witch of the West.  Or maybe s6 Willow :)

"Thief" might be a tad strong language, but if the shoe fits... :)

I guess that's kinda what I was wondrin' about.  The series is so chock full of smart homages and winks & nods to all these scenes and characters and pop references, it makes me wonder how much of it was planned and how much was just unconsicously picking up on a meme.

Like, when they did Spike-gets-back-his-soul bit, do you think the writers said "hey, let's do a fun little Wizard of Oz thing here" or did it just work out that way because that story is so etched in the writer's minds? 

Or is it something different?  Are we just seeing what we want to see because these older stories and characters are etched in our own minds, and it has nothing to do with the writers' actual design?

Probably all of the above. LB.  There really are no new stories to be told - every writer takes something he/she consciously or unconsciously admires and tries their own take on it.  Even Shakespeare. lol  So, I think "thief" is too strong a term.  But I also think that much is borrowed or based on other stuff - whether intentionally or not. And then each reader brings his/her own experience/knowledge to the party, so themes or characters that may be purely coincidental seem to be borrowed from somewhere because the reader is familiar with a story or character that the author wasn't.

I think, in terms of the Wizard of Oz thing, it was completely unintentional, since there's really no point when all of the characters are in their "Oz" state at the same time. You know, by the time Tara and Spike come along, Willow has stopped being the "brain" because now she's all about magic, and by the time Spike gets his soul, Tara's already dead. I think that one's just a matter of the viewers imposing their own theme on the characters.

I think the reason we can do that is because ALL the characters (not just Spike, even though this thread was specifically about him) fit certain archetypes - Giles as the father figure, for example. How many books/TV shows/movies have an older father figure in them? Even more specific, I bet a lot of them have a "father figure to the heroine." So, you could pick any one of them, and probably a few other characters would match up... but that doesn't mean Buffy was stolen or copied from the other material.

Hi all - Maybe Willow switched from being the Brain to the Bad Witch?  As you point out Eow - Spike and Tara were later additions, but since Joss was planning these things far ahead (and I think that story about Spike being a one-season villain was a big load of crap) my theory might still be good.

It's not so much that Joss used The Wizard of Oz but that both go back to the standard hero myth form - Hero - Magic Helper - Mentor - Loved One, etc.   There's an article on slayage that compares the characters of Buffy 

with the characters of Harry Potter.  Harry=Buffy, Herminone=Willow, Ron(?)= Xander, or something like that.

As to JW being a "thief" I was taught in art school to steal from the best.  There are no new stories, just old stories told in a charming new way.

I think that story about Spike being a one-season villain was a big load of crap

I disagree. Unless they lied to James for an entire year (which would be dangerous, since telling an actor he doesn't have a job is a good way to lose him to another job). James has said that he signed on for 5 episodes, and he was supposed to die when Buffy dropped the organ on him in What's My Line, leaving Dru and Angelus to be the main villains in the second half of season 2. 

But they liked James/Spike so much that they kept him around for the whole season. You can kind of tell he was an afterthought, since he really doesn't have anything to do during the second half of the season, except get made fun of by Angelus, until the season finale. Then, when he rode off into the sunset (figuratively) with Drusilla, James (again) assumed that was the end of his job.

They called him back for the episode in season 3 as a tryout to be a regular. They deliberately gave him scenes with characters he hadn't previously interacted with, to make sure he worked well with the entire cast. If they always intended for him to be a regular, they probably wouldn't have bothered to do that - or they would've given him those scenes in season 2, rather than bring him back for a single episode in a different season.

Also, regarding the "theft" of ideas... I give you Sam Seaborn: "Good writers borrow from other writers. Great writers steal from them outright."