BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Did she love Spike and would she choose him?

Jul 02 2007 03:37 am   #1Guest

I got into a debate with an online buddy today about whether or not Buffy loved Spike. We're both Spuffy shippers but I think she loved him and my friend doesn't.

We were also talking about whether or not Buffy would ever really choose Spike over Angel. Now on that point we agree. Neither of us think she would. However my friend thinks that because she believes Buffy doesn't love Spike, While I think that because Buffy seems incapable of moving past that first idealized love, she also isn't a risk taker when it comes to her heart. I believe she would fall back on what is comfortable, the path of least resistance.

I was just wondering what other people thought.

Jul 02 2007 04:55 am   #2Joyce
It's just that whenever Buffy took a risk, she got smacked with bad stuff..Parker, Riley. She's afraid and in stand still status so she pushes Spike because she doesn't really believe that she is loveable.
Jul 02 2007 05:13 am   #3Scarlet Ibis

I think she loved him, but, just like in "Chosen" would only say so at that point if one of them was going to die.  Would she choose him over Angel?  I think so.  Though her overall fear does hold her back, I think she was at a point in her life where she realized that though Angel was her first love, he wasn't her last.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 02 2007 05:19 am   #4Guest

I think that Buffy did love Spike. But, at first, she probably would choose Angel. But what I think would happen is that Buffy, and maybe Angel, would realize that they have both moved on and loved somebody else, even if they don't want to admit it, and that they don't really work out, because they aren't the same people they were when they were together. Angel was in love with Cordelia, and Buffy fell in love with Spike. So, while I think she might start out with Angel, that eventually she would realize that she loved Spike. The only question would be, if Spike would still want her, not if he still loved her, cause he always will. Though I don't think Joss is going to put her with either vampire in the comics, there would be too many angry fans if he put her with Angel, or Spike, from both Spuffy and Bangel shippers.

Jul 02 2007 05:28 am   #5Scarlet Ibis

There are clearly more Spuffy fans than Bangel fans, and more Spuffy fans than any other pairing beyond the Angel and Buffy series.  This is why I don't get why Joss punked out in "Chosen" with that basement scene (hmm... Wonder if the "Sopranos" director saw it).  It was his show, and he put them together, so why not go the whole nine yards?  The comics too- he should just step up and write it how he wants it, and stop worrying about pissing off the few Bangel fans out there that really should've given up around s5.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 02 2007 06:29 am   #6Eowyn315

There was another thread that discussed the first question - whether she loved him - and I'll say again I think she did.

I also think she'd choose him over Angel. I think by the end of the series, she and Angel had drifted apart to the point where, even if they still loved each other, they just weren't a part of each other's lives anymore. Some people take Buffy's "cookie dough" speech to mean that she still holds out hope for a relationship with him... but I think the fact that she sends him away is an indication that they just don't fit like they used to - he has his own life in L.A. and doesn't have a place in her apocalypse. They don't relate to each other like they used to, and Buffy's "Years, if ever" sounds a lot like she's placating him because she doesn't want to send him off rejected.

I think, if Spike weren't in the picture, she might try another go with Angel, just for the comfort and familiarity of it - but if it were a choice, it'd be no contest. She'd choose Spike just as easily as she chose him to wear the amulet.

Also - Scarlet, I don't think Joss really wants Buffy and Spike together. Maybe he did punk out in not having her choose one or the other in Chosen, to avoid angering fans, but if pushed, I don't think Joss would choose Spike. I think if he wrote it (the comics) how he wanted it, Buffy would end up with Xander.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 02 2007 06:38 am   #7Scarlet Ibis

I agree, though I don't get all of this Spike animosity.  Hell, he created him.  I think he might've still have been peeved at the fact that fans loved and reacted to him so much, and were still on his side after "Seeing Red," which was supposed to have been the ep to officially turn us all against him.  He and the writers failed.  And I don't believe he'll rectify the wrongness of that scene in "Chosen" in the comics either.  And for some reason, I feel as if it was Willow who kissed Buffy awake- don't ask me why :D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 03 2007 01:11 am   #8Eowyn315

I think you hit on the reason why, Scarlet... he was supposed to be a temporary character, but the fans loved him so much, Joss couldn't get rid of him, lol. I'm sure he didn't mind having a fantastic actor like James in the cast, and he certainly managed to come up with some intriguing story arcs for Spike, but in a lot of ways Spike was a huge problem for Joss.

Spike was created as a fairly simple, disposable villain. He lasted longer than the ones before him because, as Joss says, "I didn't want to kill off a bad guy every episode." But he was, ultimately, supposed to die... until fan support kept him alive and made him a regular. So, in a sense, Joss is stuck with this character he didn't intend and isn't invested in, the way his is with the core four.

Plus, Spike throws the entire Buffyverse out of whack, because he needs to be good enough that the Scoobies don't kill him - but he can't actually be good, because the show has already established the soul/soulless dichotomy with Angel. The chip was okay for serving that purpose for awhile, but that got old - so they went with the "Spike loves Buffy" angle. And then it got sticky... because supposedly vampires can't love without a soul. And it just got stickier and stickier, as James played Spike more and more soulful, and the writers kept pushing back trying to make him more and more evil, until Spike in season 6 seems like he has multiple personality disorder at times. They couldn't really let Spike be with Buffy, because it went against the morality laid out in the early seasons with Angel, so they tried to make their s6 relationship seem wrong, but the fans loved him so much they sided with him over Buffy.

I think giving Spike a soul was a concession to the fans - sort of a "we'll stop fighting you on this, and just make him good," since we already thought of him as good. But I don't think Joss will ever see Spike as a good partner for Buffy.

Oh - and I was pretty sure it was the other Slayer who kissed Buffy, the one she picked to go through the portal with her... because of the whole cinnamon lip gloss thing. (Buffy woke up and said, "Cinnamon buns," or something.)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 03 2007 02:38 am   #9Guest

I heard that Angel was only suppose to be a one time character to. That he was only suppose to be on the first two episodes and that was it. Also, I heard after they killed him off in season two, they weren't actually going to bring him back in season three.

But in Buffy, it seemed liked fans got more invested in the secondary characters, like Spike and Anya and Tara. Especially in season six. Personally, aside from the whole Buffy got torn out of heaven and Willow's lover died, I think those three got the worse deal that season. I always felt sorry for them, because it was always the scoobies who were making the mistakes, even though the writer's didn't realize that. Like in Entropy, was I suppose to fell sorry for Buffy and Xander in that episode? He had just left Anya at the altar and than expected her to want to get back together with him, and Buffy had told Spike to move on, and than had the audacity to get mad at him because he did. That's just a bit hypocritical. I always noticed how Willow, Buffy, Xander, and often Giles would do hypocritical things.

Jul 03 2007 05:22 am   #10Scarlet Ibis

They shot themselves in the foot with the whole "soul= good, and soulless= bad" when they showed us characters like the Mayor, Faith and Maggie Walsh, and Lilah Morgan and all those lawyers on Angel.  Clearly, they can't follow their own philosophy, so who cares if Spike didn't have a soul?  He clearly didn't need one to be "good," just like you don't need the absence of one to be "bad.

And hmm... I'll have to double check my comics now, E ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 03 2007 05:55 am   #11Eowyn315

I didn't know that about Angel (but I didn't watch the show then, so the only real behind the scenes stuff I know is what's on the DVD commentaries, and the stuff I've been interested in enough to dig deeper - i.e. stuff about Spike/James). I do remember that he wasn't in the original pilot... but I assumed that once they rewrote the pilot, including Angel, he was going to be a semi-regular.

And on the soul thing... it's weird how they don't seem to see any problem with souled people doing bad things, but they have such a problem with unsouled people being good. Although, I do remember Buffy once saying, "Someone with a *soul* did this?" like it was such a shock, but I can't remember in reference to what.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 03 2007 06:23 am   #12Guest

That always annoyed me, that they were shocked when someone with a soul did something bad. Parents abuse there children, spouses and lovers beat each other, people murder each other for pleasure and sport all the time. And they had to know that. Willow was one of the smartest girl's in that school, she had to have heard of mass murderers like Hitler, and Dahmer, and all the other psychotic people out there.

Plus in season three, was it Buffy or Faith that killed that Gwendolyn Post woman? Was it ever established that she was a demon, or was she just a nuts human woman?

Jul 03 2007 06:28 am   #13Scarlet Ibis

Faith distracted Post, while Buffy took a shard of glass, hurled it at her, and cut off the glove thingy, causing a bolt of liking to strike and kill her (disentegrate her?)  Not like she didn't deserve it... And yeah, she was just a regular, nutso murdering human.  Like Walsh when she decided to create Adam and start her own army for world domination.  What a soulful thing to do...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 03 2007 09:38 am   #14Guest

So, that means Buffy has killed an evil human. Shouldn't she have realized after that incident that not all humans are the eptimone of pureness and light? And Walsh, well, she was nuts, kind of like a demon killing Hitler.

Jul 03 2007 11:57 am   #15Guest

And yet, Joss is also the guy that said "Spike is Buffy's true love" after Chosen.

He loves screwing with the fans, gets pleasure out of it, and doesn't have the balls to just stick to one story and make it happen. When you try to please everybody, you end up pleasing no one.

*ahem*

Spike and Angel as vampires? Yeah, she'd choose Spike. Now, if Angel were human...that skews her world order, and it's likely she test drives "normal" with Angel before figuring out that it just won't work.

But at any rate, you have to get Buffy to overcome her emotional stuntedness, and that's the biggest obstacle - can she actually get the right words out.

CM

Jul 04 2007 02:16 am   #16Spikez_tart

 causing a bolt of  lightening to strike and kill her (disentegrate her?) 

I think Mrs. Post just disappears.  There's no body and in Buffyverse we all know that means she can return any time...

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 04 2007 06:02 am   #17Scarlet Ibis

I personally think that Spike would shanshu before Angel, and Angel (technically) signed his shanshu away.

And Ms. Post, well.... if she did come back, she'd be minus an arm ;)  That was left behind in the glove.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 04 2007 07:39 am   #18Eowyn315

Really, CM? I don't remember hearing that Joss said that. I know he told Sarah, "Love him when you say you love him" when filming that scene, but hearing that he called Spike her true love surprises me.

I agree that Spike would probably shanshu instead of Angel... but I don't think signing the prophecy away has anything to do with it. I don't see how you *can* sign a prophecy away - it's not yours to give. You can do things that change or thwart prophecies (Buffy does that plenty) but I don't see how saying, "I refuse this prophecy" would mean anything. I think, rather, that the circumstances of getting the soul is what separates them. Fighting to obtain your soul seems more championy than getting cursed with one. Everyone assumed Angel was the one, because he had his soul first... but maybe it was meant to be Spike all along, and Angel's curse was actually the wild card, not Spike getting his soul.

I think, however, for fanfic purposes, you can get a great story out of either one of them shanshuing, so I'm not really picky on that front. :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 04 2007 08:08 am   #19Scarlet Ibis

Oh, I totally agree E.  I just meant in addition to all that, he kinda signed it away.  And even if it did work, the "signing it away," he signed it on a tiny piece on the corner that could easily be torn off, and he only signed "Angel," which isn't his real name anyway.

And I've heard Joss say that Angel and Spike were each other's true love, or something like that, lol.  I've also heard him say that he knew when he realized that Spike was in love with Buffy... I've never heard the "true love" thing from Joss either.  Though why he'd think Angel was better for her (over Spike, not necessarily in a true love sense) is beyond me.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 04 2007 12:02 pm   #20Guest

It was in an interview after "Chosen" aired. It's been too long to tell you where that was, but I remember it clearly since I was a Spuffy at the time, too.

CM

Jul 04 2007 06:16 pm   #21Eowyn315

I've heard Joss say that Angel and Spike were each other's true love

ROFL, Scarlet, I've heard that, too. And, honestly, it's kinda true. Maybe not so much for Spike (since I think Buffy is his true love) but no one complemented Angel the way Spike did. None of his relationships with women could compare with those two in Angel season 5... lol.

Though why he'd think Angel was better for her (over Spike, not necessarily in a true love sense) is beyond me.

I'm not sure he would... both relationships have an awful lot of baggage. (And I'm trying to be objective, because I so blatantly pick Spike myself, but it's hard... lol.) I can't help thinking, between the two, Spike is better. But I wonder if Joss, given the option, would pick neither of them. I think there will always be a bit of awe and reverence for the "first love" but Buffy's cookie dough speech almost sounds like she hasn't found her true love yet. So, it could be anyone... could be Xander, could be Satsu (is that the Slayer's name?), could be someone we (and she) haven't met yet.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 04 2007 06:21 pm   #22Scarlet Ibis

You know, as far canon goes, I think that Spike and Angel are definitely the most "true love" worthy characters.  S5 of Angel was totally the least amount of angst I've ever seen with those two as far as coupledom, and I ever so enjoyed watching it.  And even though it's been a century plus, they shockingly have *less* baggage then they both had with Buffy.  It's kwazy, I tells ya...

In canon, I don't think Buffy has a true love. And if she did, I'm fairly certain she wouldn't know what to do with it.

And I'm sure Joss said that, though I still think he's awful confused about a whole bunch of stuff.  Do you think he ever saw the many, many Spuffy sites?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 04 2007 07:10 pm   #23JoJoBird

I hear the most likely reason why Joss might never get to put us straight with the love triangle is because dark horse doesnt own the rights to Angel/spike but some other comic company does.(stupid reason )

yea far as i know Joss would troll the many spuffy sites which happend to be the most active buffy ones at the time i believe LOL, and browsed fics and opinions.

I feel like the biggest bitch saying this but if buffy goes Bi or lost in Xander (equally as obsurd and bizarre) i hope sells drop for the needed time, to get joss "back on track" so to speak   :|  Frankly i dont know WHAT he was playing at with the "true love kiss" then, likely as usual he just wanted to get us riled up and keep us comming back for more (I pray) hopefully he is just pulling a "romance with the immortal" on us and nothing more.

Jul 07 2007 08:52 pm   #24Eowyn315

JoJo, the Angel characters belonging to IDW is one of the reasons why he won't use them very much (even though he could, it's not a rights problem, it's just out of respect for what IDW is doing with the characters), but I don't think that's why Joss avoids the love triangle. He was avoiding it on the show, even before the comics came about. I think the real reason why he avoids it is partially to avoid upsetting any fans, but also because he wants Buffy to be an independent woman. It's part of the "girl power" thing - she doesn't need a man to complete her (cookie dough speech). She needs to be herself and grow up before she can find someone to be with. And when she does, if she does in the comics, I doubt it will be Spike or Angel.

I highly doubt that Joss ever browsed fics. It wouldn't surprise me if he checked out message boards for feedback (a lot of TV people are known for reading TWoP), but reading fics would open him up to all kinds of "you stole my idea" lawsuits. I'm not sure that it would make a difference, though. Even though there are a ton of Spuffy fans, Joss is famous for saying he gives viewers what they need, not what they want. Obviously, we all want Spuffy, but that's probably not what Joss thinks we need.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 07 2007 09:32 pm   #25Scarlet Ibis

Not saying you need a guy to complete you or anything, but does anyone else find it weird that Joss cares more about the whole girl power thing and Buffy standing alone than we do?  And honestly, I'm not sure it's about that at all...  As Anya points out, Buffy didn't earn her powers.  Oh sure, most of the time she did "the right thing," but as a female heroine, how empowering was she? Or role model like, for that matter?  The whole "martyr, and I'm always right" thing killed it for me. 

And independence?  Then what was the point of Riley, huh Joss?  If s4 was the season of self discovery and growing up, etc., as I've heard him say (along those lines) before, then did she really *need* a boyfriend?  She couldn't have been alone that season?  Especially after the Parker debacle- she shouldn't had tried for a boyfriend then, it would've made more sense.  Instead, Joss makes her jump head first onto the second meat stick she finds, attaching herself to him just cause it seemed all "normal" and stuff.  It would've made it a helluva lot more enjoyable to watch if she didn't have Riley, that's for damn sure.

Anyway, finding the other side to your coin doesn't demean a woman, or take away from their own self empowerment or what have you (IMHO).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 07 2007 10:54 pm   #26Eowyn315

Good points, Scarlet. I think Joss wanted his message to be about girl power (his whole thing about redeeming the blonde girl who always gets killed in horror movies), and he wanted Buffy to be a role model... but the message definitely gets muddled at times. I thought Buffy had some less than admirable moments throughout, but season 6 was when she really lost her role model status, IMO. 

I think Buffy's having a boyfriend has always been about more than just "finding the other side to your coin." She's a serial monogamist, and has so many issues with herself and with men that it's painful to think about. So, in her case, I think it is important for her to be single, to learn to love herself, before getting involved in a relationship. Especially at that point - when her entire life has changed, she's no longer the only Slayer, and no longer has the same burden she's lived with. She needs the chance to adjust and figure out who she is in this new world where everything's different, before she can figure out where a man fits into her life.

Regardless of how we perceive the character, and the show, Joss is definitely a feminist, though. It may not come through the way he intends it (for which I'm tempted to blame Marti Noxon... but then, I'm tempted to blame Marti Noxon when it rains), but I think his goal was to create a female heroine girls would be inspired by - and although it's weird that he has to give her superpowers to prove his point, I think he's trying to tell us that women are strong and powerful.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 08 2007 01:14 am   #27Scarlet Ibis

You're right- I do place more blame on Marti than him... At any rate, I definitely give him credit for trying, especially since he has male parts.  When Buffy came out, there weren't any shows about a female hero who wasn't all sex kitteny (that is, if there was a show about a female hero.  I don't recall any during the 90s.  And besides "Wonder Woman" was there another show about a female heroine with super powers?).  I had this, and "Alias," though both female characters let me down in some shape or form... I still had my Charly Baltimore though, even if they never made a sequel :D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 08 2007 01:41 am   #28Eowyn315

Another thing that bothers me as much as Buffy-as-role-model (and boy, has this thread gone off-topic, lol) is the idea that, in order to have a strong female lead, all the males have to be emasculated. I'm not sure if that was Joss or Marti or just an unintentional thing that happened, but notice how the women in the show are so much more powerful than the men? Willow and Tara are powerful witches, Anya is/was (depending on the season) a vengeance demon. Xander is mostly a victim, or considered less useful than everyone else (in fact, we needed an entire episode - The Zeppo - to explain to us how little everyone else thinks of him) and Giles, although he's important as knowledge-guy, tends to mostly get knocked unconscious. Any male with superpowers ends up being evil (Angel and Spike) or unable to use their power (Oz can't control his wolf, and Spike gets his power taken away by the chip). 

I'm tempted to say that was Joss' doing, because the only times that men save the world are in seasons 6 (Xander) and 7 (Spike), when Joss had less control. Of course, by seasons 6 and 7, pretty much all of the themes the show set up early on had been thrashed to bits anyway.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 08 2007 06:48 am   #29Guest

It was Joss' decision to sacrifice Spike for the world, though. He had that one planned out, then started figuring out how.

CM

Jul 08 2007 07:11 am   #30Scarlet Ibis

Yes, how is it possible, that Giles, a man trained in combat, manages to get knocked unconscious more than two teenagers with no knowledge of how to properly fight? 

Oh, and I find it funny that once Riley was free and clear of the Initiative juice that gave him extra strength, and he was back to being even more normal than what he already was, he was all of a sudden "useless," and leaves Buffy.

And Robin wasn't emasculated, really (mommy issues aside)... He may have been the only one.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 08 2007 10:16 am   #31Eowyn315

Hmm... what does it say about my priorities that I completely forgot Riley existed when posting my last response? lol

But yeah, Riley fits the emasculation theory, too... he sort of had superpowers, and then they're taken away. He definitely feels emasculated and useless, and Buffy feels like she needs to protect him, and that's why he leaves.

You're right about Robin... though you could sorta call him evil (I mean, he did try to kill Spike).

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 08 2007 11:01 am   #32Scarlet Ibis

Forgetting about Riley?  Well, he ain't so memorable ;)

Yeah, but I get why.  Vengeance for mom and so forth... Giles was more wrong than Robin on that account.  Though how he tried to do it was way unethical- he tricked Spike, and cheated...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel