(Yes, I'm back. England was wonderful and expensive and it's back to work on Wednesday.)

Inspired by Dia's posting looking for recs for non-BtVS fics, I thought I'd ask if anyone thinks the fandom is (as is often suggested and then found to be untrue) fading?   I know that I don't spend the hours reading voraciously that I did when I first found fanfic so long ago.  Now, granted, some of that is because I've read most of what was available then and in subsequent years; but some of it is because it is taking more to bring me into a story than simply 'it's Spike and Buffy!'.  Not that I think I'm really tired of reading about my two favorite superheroes, but simply that there isn't much that hasn't been written about them (not much that I actually want to read, anyway, lol) already, so in order to make me want to read a fic there has to be more to it than simply being about Spike and Buffy.

It has to be really well-written, it has to make me feel like I'm reading an episode that never happened but could have. I want that wonderful mix of humor, horror, wit, angst, sex and real characters that I remember from watching the show.  I'm fine with the characters doing things and having experiences that we never saw (because, as we all know, we would be much kinder to the characters than Joss ever was. lol) because that's why I read - but I have to be able to recognize the characters and their different reactions and behaviors have to work for me or I can't be bothered.  

Having said that, it is becoming obvious that there is very little left in the way of original things to do with them that would fit my criteria.  At this point, it's all down to how well written the story is and whether the author can make me care about the characters and/or what happens to them.

Does anyone else feel that interest in the fandom itself, or in Spike/Buffy is fading?  And, if so, is it something we should be fighting vigorously, or is it just the inevitable attrition that should be expected and accepted?

Hmm, I don't think it's really fading in the sense that it will disappear in the near future. It's certainly getting "calmer", compared to when the show was still running or recently finished, but that's only natural. There is no new material for us to play with, and less newcomers to the fandom. At the same time, some of the older "members" who (like us) have spent all their spare time reading fanfic instad of just now and then, get more and more selective and even somewhat bored. Neither of those things will "kill" the fandom, after all, there are several fandoms based on material much older than BtVS, who are very active (LotR), or at least still around (X-Files). And just because some of the people who've been around for years are starting to look for some variation, doesn't mean they will disappear completely and never come back. Then there are the people who have been playing in several fandoms from the beginning, they are much less likely to get bored with the characters, so they'll probably stick around as well. Thanks to DVD box-sets and many a fan's tendancy to try and get their RL friends interested in their hobby, we aren't even running out of newcomers.

So yeah, it's getting calmer around here, but I doubt we'll have to order a coffin anytime soon.

As for fighting it, I can't imagine how. What drew most of us in was the desire to read fics, and like you said, no new material, limit to new possible ideas/scenarios, we can't change that. The only thing we could possibly influence is the community itself, but that's not gonna hold anyone who's getting bored with the fics, nor is it gonna get us new members; because in the end that's just a sideshow to what we're really interested in, namely reading stories about the characters.

I think we should just go on like before, some people are gonna leave, new ones are gonna show up, it's just how it works. Wow, aren't we fatalistic today? Or was that realistic? ;-) :-P

I know what you mean. I remember after watching the 7th season when I first started getting into fanfic there was so many different, intriguing stories available it was like, where do I start!! I wasn't very picky, anything with Spike and Buffy was a winner to me! Now, unless it's by a favourite author of mine who I know whips up fantastic stories every time, it takes a lot to draw me in to a new fic. I find that after going through every fic of several archives, I've realised only certain types of fics catch my eye. I tend to like episode stealers, timetravel, and where they are thrown into different dimensions/situations where they need each other to survive and see each other in a new light etc etc... and I totally agree that the characters have to be spot on as I remember them from the show; if I can't imagine Spike saying that, or Buffy doing this, then I easily become distracted and either the plot or the smut would have to be very well written for me to keep on going.

Anyway, point is, unless you're new to the fandom (which is something we should be fighting vigorously for! Everyone blackmail those friends/family into watching Buffy and becoming addicted! lol) then once you've been around for awhile, it's hard to find not just new ideas and plots, but just new fics (that are of decent quality) at all! 

I haven't really read anything new in quite awhile... just following my favourite authors and their updates/new stories. But until your favourite author updates, I guess the fandom does kind of die down for a bit.... but isn't that life? It'll have it's highs and lows but I don't think it's fading out. There'll always be new people joining the fandom, and new authors that have the talent to keep bringing life to characters that have been off the air for years now... Us Spuffiers(? what's the term for people who like Spuffy...?) will keep going strong for awhile. I can feel it in all of my 206 bones. :D

In my opinion anyway.

Well, being a 'noob' myself, I can't speak to the fandom's past.  I didn't even start reading or writing fanfic until early this year.  However, it seems like there are a lot of new authors out there who are generating excitement (ClawofCat, Alia and Unbridled Brunette spring immediately to mind, though there are many, many others).  Not to mention all of the "older" writers that are experimenting with really fresh and interesting projects (see WeyrAtheneWolfen's "To Ride a Pale Horse").

So I dunno.  I'm excited, and game for more.  Or is this one of those deals where I get to the party after the keg is kicked?

We're calmer, yes. I think we're also in a transition period, where the new blood is having to take over the common posting from the older authors that have moved on to writing other things. I don't think readership has dwindled, though. There are always teens coming up and discovering BTVS and Angel on DVDs or reruns. As they get older, I hope to see those kids putting out some decent fics, too.

I like both Canon and AU fics, so I still find new things to read, though I'm picky about trying out a new author, since the story HAS to have decent grammar and spelling. But, I do miss my favorite authors that have moved on.  A lot of those stories still exist in original fic form, but it's just not the same when the names are no longer Buffy and Spike.

The only limit I have in how much time I spend reading is how often people update. I have a new chapter of *something* practically every day.

I will say that my inspiration for writing Spuffy has diminished a bit, with writing the same characters for over 2 years. I thought I was in a writer's slump, until I started an original story, and it came flowing out. I just needed the break from my regular subject. I'm looking forward to getting back to it with fresh eyes.

Well, Spike still inspires me. I can always come up with *something* for him to do. :D'

Caro Mio

I don't think I could ever get tired of Spuffy. Plus, it does seem like the most popular Buffy ship out there, so I don't think it's going to die for awhile.

I don't really see it as us being tired or the fandom dying at all.  I think that "old timers" be they readers or writers might well leave this fandom (possibly to return in time) but as they go new come to fandom.  Buffy and Angel (like the Star Trek franchise) will go on forever in reruns and on DVDs.  This will expose generations not even born at this time to our beloved characters and into fandom.  That being the case it will never die, not any more than fandom of Trek has died.

No doubt the numbers will be a bit lower than at the peak but never die out totally.  As for all the stories being told?????  Well one could say that after the first spoon was designed that was that.  Go and look at the varieties of spoons!  There will always be new twists, new angles to explore...new insights missed or unexploited.  If you get down to it ALL stories of all kinds must surely have been told by this point in history yet every day new works are published, read and enjoyed.  The readability depends on the storyteller.

I think sites like this one will always be read (even if numbers go down from time to time).  As a reader as well as writer, I hope the resources will always remain to find my favorite couple spotlighted.

As for me...call me a one trick pony but I have no desire to write for any other fandom even if I write gen as well as Spuffy...it's still Jossverse.  no other fandom has captivated my muse even though I am loving such "new" offerings as Dr. Who (current and 9th doctor), House, Lost and such "classics" as Dark Shadows and Robin of Sherwood.  I don't write those and have no desire to do so.  I can see myself doing original fic (have a few irons in that fire already) but as for fanfic....don't see me moving.

Kathleen

old and set in my ways.

I'm relatively new to the fandom, been reading Spufy for abour a year and a half now, almost two. I would write fics for it, if I could ever get Spike to sound right when I try to write him. Anyway, I think even fifty years from now I'll still like Spuffy, even when kids will be asking 'what's Buffy the Vampire Slayer?'. And besides, old fandoms still have fans, like fics for 21 Jump Street, sparse though they may be.

I really hope Spuffy doesn't die for a *very* long time. Truthfully, I think I love fanfiction more than canon. I don't read the comics. I'm in a slump when ever an author takes one of my favorite fics down.

I'm an avid reader, but I'm fairly certain I've only read maybe half of what some of you other guys have read, lol, cause I only discovered fan fic in towards the end of season six... Anyway, no I'm not bored with it, though I must admit other ships, some having nothing to do with Spike or Buffy keep popping into my brain (mostly one shots), but I, unlike some of the more established authors, have no audience really to show them to, like on my own site or something (which, btw, is non existent).

But really, since the show isn't on air anymore, and even its syndication has been reduced dramtically, cons and fan fic is really the only thing that true die hard fans can turn to, and I'm sure, even if there is a decrease in fiction, there's still a lot of fantastic finished ones out there that people wouldn't mind rereading (as I have done many, many times to a few of my "faves.") 

As old authors leave, due to RL or persuing, ahem, real, "I got published, ya'll" writing (and I do hope to achieve that...), there are still a few new ones who will keep us marching on, and the old stories that will live forever on the net, or stored onto some of our hard drives.  But for me personally, when I do get published in RL, I will still write BtVS fan fic, because it is my hobby, after all.  Some people collect and read comics, knit, whatever-- I do fan fic. 

End of story.

:Rolls eyes and shakes head::  Why are we even asking this...again? Yes there is, RL, and some of us "grow up" as it were, but the fandom is not dead.  It will only "die" if we let it.  Yes, sometimes it is tempting to say, "That's over now, let's move on," but for some,  it is still very new and that may help those that are waning recharge; give the authors some new ideas, new "eyes"to see the show with.  Maybe that will help them see what it was about the show that drew them to it in the first place.

I, for one, am far from licked.  :) I still have lots of ideas, and lots of stories to tell.  "Sunnydale" and the people that live there, are still very much "alive" to me.

If Joss won't do it, continue the 'verse he created, and treat the characters we love so well, right, (Did you know that, in a recent interview, Mr. Marsters said that Joss didn't even like "Spike?") then I will!  

I know there are others who will as well.

Anyway, that's my two cents.  ::Climbing off my soap box now. :: :)

Well, that's unsurprising considering how the writer's treated Spike, always constanly trying to make us hate him. But, everything they did just made us love him more. He's probably one of the most, if not the most, popular character from Buffy and Angel.

Hee! It's nice to know that so many people think the fandom is alive and kicking.  And, yes, new people are coming in all the time, so they will keep things going.  I was just curious as to what others felt might be happening.  I guess "calming down" is as good description as any (and much less scary than "fading" or "dying") for the inevitable attrition as the series get farther away from prime time.  I often forget that newbies will still have that "must read everything Spike" vibe going on, and that, all by itself is probably enough to keep things going.  

Not having experience in any other fandoms, I'm not familiar with the usual process, but I would guess that, as seems to be happening with this one, the world of fanfic begins to take the place of the actual show in reader's hearts and minds.  Canon is eventually replaced with fanon.  Maybe?

Nah, canon could never be replaced by fanon.  However, I am sure that some fanon is appreciated tons more than actual canon, cause at times, canon was oh so very cruel to us...

I read in the same interview that FetchingMadScientest mentioned, that James also said he didn't believe Joss really liked Angel either, the character not the show.

On that note, I'd like to add that the "Spuffy" flavor of the fandom is my favorite.  No offense to all the Bangels, Ruffys, Spoyces, and Wanders out there, but in general Spuffy writers seem to be more intelligent, creative and competent than the "competition."

Not sure why that is, but it might have something to do with the fact that it was the only real mature relationship explored on the show.  Also, we seem to be more athletic and have better hair (although I admit that last bit might be a coincedence.)

That said, I find it fun to read stories that explore other characters, even if its within a wider "Spuffy" context.  Spike and Buff were great.  But Xander was also great.  So were Willow and Giles.  Hell, I really liked Adam on the show!  I get the feeling on SR sometimes that the show was all about the Spuffy scenes for a lot of readers and writers.  I thought their relationship was great in the sense that they were these doomed, operatic lovers who sounded like a Valley Girl and a Soccer Hooligan.  But for me, the show was really more about the puns, the snappy dialogue and the clever pacing.  The Spuff-stuff was just the icing on a giant, delicious chocolate cake.  Full of strippers! :)

Being fairly new to the fandom as both a reader and a writer, I certainly haven't run out of fics to read. I haven't even read most of the fics on this archive, let alone in the entire fandom. So, I don't see there being a danger of not finding enough good stories to read. And as a writer, I still have plenty of ideas I'd like to explore, and I don't foresee my interest waning any time soon.

That said, I used to write fanfiction in two other fandoms, both of which lost my interest once the shows were canceled. Of course, there are two major differences - first, the fandoms for those shows seemed to dwindle much more rapidly than the BtVS fandom so there wasn't really an audience for fanfic, and second, I didn't watch Buffy until a year ago, so cancellation doesn't affect me - I'll just have to let my interest run its course. I imagine that, if I ever find a TV show currently airing that inspires fanfic, I might cut back on my BtVS participation. But lately, the only show I've even bothered to read fanfic for is Veronica Mars (which is also now canceled) and I don't have an interest in writing any.

LB is right...it's so much more than Spuffy (yummy icing as it may be).  All the characters have so many layers and "stories" to tell and then it multiplies as you intermingle them.  These were some of the most complex fictional characters I've ever seen, just like real people in that sense.  Millions of stories are housed in each character.  Then consider that all these characters changed, evolved, as the series (s) progressed and you have even more room to explore.  The Spuffy love is a yummy reward but the entire package is timeless and limitless in the right hands.

Kathleen

I'm particularly new  to Spuffy fanfic, I've been reading it for about a year and a half now. I've stopped  reading as much as I used to because alot of fics I see, especially on other websites are repetitive and way too fluffy, like Spike and Buffy are the most perfectest couple ever, when it's their differences that I like the most.

I've only been in the fandom for a few months. I hope it doesn't fade anytime soon. :P

LB - if you're looking on SR for anything other than Spuffy, you're looking in the wrong place. LOL  Any of the archives that are designated Spuffy will not have much else to offer.  Perhaps it might be a good idea to put something in the forum that lists other archives that are open to all pairings and gen fics.  I know they must be out there, because most of the people I met at WCUK (while all admirers of Spike) do not write Spuffy.  They must be publishing somewhere!  Maybe they're all on LJ, but I would bet not.  Does anyone know?

PS, LB - answer your damn e mail!

I'm not getting tired of reading Spuffy.  Although, I much prefer vamp/slayer to all human stories and that limits what I read.  Spuffy is actually the only pairing that has to be together in a fic for me to read it.  You can put the others with anyone else you want, but if Spuffy is together... well.... 

I've been writing and reading in different fandoms for years. Buffy wasn't my first fandom, since when I found fan fic, Buffy wasn't a t.v show yet. :P

Even know, I'm dabbling in different fandoms. Mainly I end up looking for ways to cross them with Buffy. Case in point, my obsession with Supernatural and crossing it over with Buffy. Dean Winchester and Spike are a lot of fun to write. :D

I know I've become picker in reading stories. I've read a lot of fan fic and you do get tired of reading the same thing over and over again. In addition, I get tired of just smut, so I like to look for the longer fics. I want a story I can get lost in for a few hours, (or days if possible.)

I think reading Spuffy and nothing but Spuffy for three years made me want to change pairings. Lately I'm reading much more Spike/Xander and Buffy/Faith than Spuffy. I guess it has more to do with reading every possible way of Spuffy getting together, every possible plot, every possible interaction. It doesn't help that lately the majority of Spuffy writers like to bash characters I like (ex. Xander, Angel and Willow), and that I only read for writers I know and trust.

Spuffy will always be in my thoughts, I guess I need a little break from it for a little while. Try other pairings. It's refreshing to read other pairings, to discover more point of views, to see that Spike and Buffy can work it out with other people.

I read other pairings sometimes, mostly Spike pairings, but I can't read Buffy with anyone but him unless he's already with someone else and not pinning after her. Spuffy is still my favorite and I'll always read it.

Actually I realized I find it harder to read Spike with another woman, I used to read Spike/Faith but I get upset because I want him with Buffy, and there's just too much Buffy bashing for my liking. I like Spike more with men, if not with Buffy, especially men who love Buffy like Xander and Angel. I'd wish to read a good Spike/Giles fiction one day.

If you're looking for some great spike/giles stories try Jenny's stories at

lovethatdares.com.  Her spike/giles stories are excellent, angsty but believeable.

Thank you. I can't believe I'm reading Spike with men who hate him, but then Buffy usually isn't the biggest Spike fan in Spuffy stories. That's probably why I'm interested in these hate/hate pairings.

I saw a Jane Austen fan fic the other day.  I think Spuffy is safe for the time being. 

I have been a spuffy fan for years! I started writing a long time ago, but my boyfriend at the time found out gave me a hard time and made me stop. (How stupid I was) Even after he humiliated me I came back a few years later (Got a better boyfriend who believed in me. And I realized that no one was ever going to tell me what to do again!!!)

I have always been a spuffy fan, and I can see myself being 80 years old and still striving for some new plot twist to add to Spuffy. (Real life allowing) There are so many elements to the relationship and so many different possibilities. All the characters are so rich in personality. (Not to mention Spike is HOT!)

Spuffy is the only real "fandom" I guess is the word I have ever been involved with, but I have looked around for something else to peak my intrest. NOTHING! I have found nothing with as many active fans!

I think it is safe to say it will not die for years!!!! We never got clouser on the show, so this is the next best thing. Besides it is more fun this way!

True Spuffy Fans Never Get Tired! Whooo hooo!

Late to the discussion again - from my "reader Only" perspective - people still visiting and  reading are still loving these characters, and loving them in a very deep level.  after all these years, if we continue to read the works being created, it means that we still love what you writers give us.  Your works allow us to continue are connections with all the buffyverse. 

Spuffy, i think is still so popular and powerful because it is founded on such strong and passionate characters.   all those passions and emotional traumas they experienced, were things that many of the viewers also lived through.   each and every character told something of our own life stories and then on top of all that, we have all the wonderful mythic symbolism and intellectual and political themes.  how can there not be more and more to write about.  if anything, I am hoping for all the serious writers and would like to be serious writers, to take off and start exploring some of the subtext of the series -

There is so much material just waiting for the writers to work with -

one thing, as a reader only again, is that many of the readers might be finding some of the work repetive because many of the stories all seem to have obligatory sex scenes, or they have the same references to hot chocolate, giles and his glasses. etc.  -

when something from the series really works, it comes out great in the story, read a lemonade and buffy reference that was just wonderful the other day - but so many of the times, i feel like i am reading a reference just because writers think they have to put them in, not because they add anything to their work.

sorry for the long rant, just want to say - still reading the ff work, still loving it, still loving spuffy and buffyverse - and mostly, thank you all for bring us all your wonderful tales.

Maybe fandom is tired. There is a poll on Dark Horse forum: Buffy should end up with...     ...and Angel wins with a landslide.

http://www.darkhorse.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=11914&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Then again, is it indicative? As far as I know, Spuffies ignore comics. While Bangels continue their campaigns.

Is the poll closed? 'Cause this is the first I've heard of it.

The jury is still out on the comic.  I don't follow it because, quite simply, I don't trust Joss. I love his work, but I don't trust him not to leave Spuffiphiles hanging. ;) And I'm not alone.   If the comic is being ignored, to me, that doesn't indicate that the Spuffy fandom is tired.  It just means that we've all been burned by Joss before, and we don't want to be burned again.

I don't think the poll results indicate that the Spuffy fandom is dying. I think it illustrates the difference between Spuffy fans and Bangel fans. Spuffy fans don't care what happens in the "canon" comics, because we know we can write all the fanfiction we want, and it'll probably be better than canon anyway. Besides, canon was never really kind to Spuffy to begin with. 

Bangel fans are still determined to make it canon that Angel is Buffy's one forever true love, as though they need Joss to justify their 'ship. For some reason, they don't rely on fanfic nearly as much to indulge in their Bangelness. (Notice how much less Bangel fic there is than Spuffy fic.) They prefer to have polls and campaigns to make it "official" than to take what they were given and be creative with it, as Spuffy fans do.

And that's my broad generalization for today. :)

I see it that way: season 8 brings new ideas for fanfiction. I already met three Spuffy writers who will write stories about Buffy breaking her relationship with Xander when she finds out Spike is alive. Hopefully, they'll be done more tastefully than that. I love the Xandman. It'll be great if the writers took the positive points about season 8 and ignored the negative (like we already do with the earlier seasons) and make one fresh new wonderful story.

Proof Joss so isn't gonna have Spuffy *or* Bangel goodness in sthe s8 comics...

Was watching "A Hole in the World" last night, and some of the commentaries, which really helped for this one shot short I'm gonna do...Anyway, here's Joss's thoughts on "true loves" and the perfect girl in both verses in regards to all three characters.

(in reference to Spike and Angel) "I've never seen a more intense, and beautiful romance...We finally found, you know, the right girl for Angel (Spike).  I'm sorta kidding."

and (in reference to a hand holding scene of the two in the ep)

"The holding hands was kinda deliberate, over the top "look how together they are..."

Kinda agree.  Also agree that Spike can do better than Buffy.  And if that happens to be Angel (I'm speaking canon here, not fan fic per se), then so be it.  If Buffy hooks up with Xander, then I don't care.  Spike and Angel are soul mates.  Long live canon Spangel, and long live Spuffy fan fic :P

I wouldn't mind if Spangel was canon. It's one of my favorite ships.

Spikehot, now I totally want to read one of those fics - but I wouldn't want it to be Xander-bashing, because I like him, too... I'd love to see an angsty decision for Buffy, where she's torn between the two, and realizes she might lose her best friend if she dumps him for Spike. Hmm... *scurries off to challenge list*

And Scarlet - I've no idea where, but Joss has apparently said that Spike is Buffy's true love, so you made me want to read a fic where Buffy realizes Spike's alive and goes to find him, only to discover he's with Angel now. Hee!

I wouldn't mind canon Spangel... if we're never going to get Spuffy, Spangel would be my second choice. And OMG, can you imagine how *crazy* that would make Bangel fans? Hee! They tend to *hate* Spike. I'd almost love it just for that. (I realize there's probably some Spuffy fans who'd hate it, too, because they hate Angel... but I think there are more Spuffies who are also Spangels.)

E, if you find such a fic, please shoot me a link ;)  The only thing that I saw that comes close to that is post NFA, is super long cause of the sequel (and are both super awesome), and Spike's kinda crazy from being tortured by Wolfram & Hart.  Anyway, when Buffy found out that Spike would willingly choose Angel over her, it was a sweet moment!!  Blurred Bloodlines and the sequel Blurred Memories by Kallysten.

I love the new fanficion ideas! I know a lot of Spuffy fans who can enjoy Spangel and Spander. We're just not uptight as the Bangels. I'm pretty much opened for any pairing featuring either Spike or Buffy as the main character.

If I knew how write a story I'd have written a Spangel with Buffy's reaction, or a Spangel where Spike chooses Buffy over Angel, or a Bander where Buffy chooses Spike over Xander, or even a drabble where Xander just smirk at shocked Spike and Angel that Buffy finally chose him over them (the last one would be a treat. I already read a smirking Xander watching Angel sing while Buffy tried to reassure Angel that he sounded okay. Set in season two.)

There are so many ideas for fanfiction, but character bashing always throw me away. I don't mind Spike sniding at Angel, or Xander, or Giles, or the opposite. I just don't like it to go extreme, especially when turning good characters into evil without a good reason and having the others not able to forgive them in the end. It didn't play like that with Willow in the show, so I don't see why it can with Giles or Xander.

I don't believe it is dying, but I know there are alot of authors out there that haven't finished their stories, so any new authors I then to either give them a try or wait til complete, but we seem to see a new auther at least 1 a day on 2 fo the 3 boards I visit.

It's not not really about new authors, it's just I rarely see new plots. I want to read a Spuffy with a new idea. I feel like I've read every twist there is. That is why I started to read more Spander and Fuffy these days. Spuffy will always be my number one pairing, I guess I just need a small break from it.

You know what I think it is, why Spuffies are less uptight than Bangels? I think it's because a lot of Spuffies are really Spike fans... and they just want Spike with Buffy because *Spike* wants to be with Buffy. (I mean, look at this site... we're a Spuffy archive, but whose picture is at the top? Just Spike.) But most of those fans have no problem following Spike in whatever relationship he's in, even if they have a preference for Spuffy.

Bangels, on the other hand, usually aren't in it for one character or the other. They are fans of the relationship, as we saw it on screen, and want it to continue. Hence, less flexibility.

Good point, Eowyn.  Another reason why Bangels have less flexibility is because what they like about their OTP is the idea that Buffy and Angel have this timeless true love soulmate thing going.  Not much room for exploring interesting emotional angles when all you are really going for is this static *thing*.  It's a fantasy, and a rather lifeless one at that.

I think it's because a lot of Spuffies are really Spike fans... and they just want Spike with Buffy because *Spike* wants to be with Buffy.

You know, I never thought of it like that before.  Completely on target as far as I go, though.  I like Buffy and Spike because I like Spike.  If Spike had had a major yen for Willow instead, I would be all over the Spike/Willow.

I like both Spike and Buffy. So I'm okay reading Spike with others and Buffy with others. I just like to read Spike with men, and Buffy with women. I didn't really enjoy Spike/Willow and Spike/Faith, not as much as I enjoyed Spike/Xander and Spike/Angel. The only right relationship for Buffy with a woman, is with Faith.

On the topic of are we getting tired, are sites disappearing?  It seems like half the links I click on (even on sites that are still being upated) are invalid or gone.

That's true of me, too; where Spike goes, so goes my nation. However, at this point in the story -- that is to say, after Spike left his girlfriend of a century for Buffy, after he loved Buffy hopelessly for so many years, after he got his soul back for her, after he told her "she's the one" -- I wouldn't buy him falling in love with another woman (or man, if we're talking Spangel). I'll read other ships in fanfiction, but in canon, it's a no-go.

Technically, Spike didn't leave Dru. Even when she came back, it wasn't for him- it was for him to help her and Darla corrupt Angel.  She didn't come back just for him, and Spike was fully aware of that.  And sorry to say, there was definite canon Spangel going on, and if they end up together in Joss's comic canon, then I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed.

I wasn't talking about "Crush", actually, I was talking about "Fool for Love", where Dru looks at him and "all she sees is the Slayer".

As for Spangel, yes, they have definitely had at least a one-night stand, and their dynamic is interesting, but that doesn't equal love, especially not the epic kind of love Spike had for Buffy. And considering how defensive Joss was about Spike and Angel's sexual history ("I'm just sayin'! I'm just sayin'!"), I don't expect him to take it any further than fanservice. Not unless he ends the series with Spike/Buffy/Angel. :D

He still didn't leave her in FFL- she dumped him, even if the reason was because she could see what he couldn't (being in love with Buffy) :)

And as for Spangel, well, Joss calls Spike the perfect "girl" (match) for him, and I'm inclined to agree.  There's such a lack of drama and angst than either of them being paired with Buffy, and they're more fun to watch.  And I so hope he doesn't go for the threesome rounte.  Not just cause it'll be weird, but also a cop out.  Nah, he's gotta pick one, or the other, or neither IMHO.

He had already left Dru in his heart, though. I was more referring to Spike's emotional state than his actions.

I think the "girl" comment was more of a joke and a nod to David and James's great chemistry than anything to be taken seriously, really.

I have no idea what Joss will do. The only thing I know is that there's no way he'll completely satisfy any of the shipper groups -- even if Buffy ends up with one of them, even if Spike and Angel end up together, even if they get involved as a threesome, there's sure to be a catch. It'll be a happy ending by Joss's standards, but that's not saying much.

 I think it's because a lot of Spuffies are really Spike fans... and they just want Spike with Buffy because *Spike* wants to be with Buffy. 

I think that's the best description of why I enjoy Spuffy,  Spander, Spillow & Spawn; it's not that I actually prefer one pairing over the other, it's just that what I really, really want is for Spike to finally be happy.  He never got that in the show.  I think that's why I read fanfic; to have Spike receive the love we all know he deserves; it doesn't matter who it is, as long as Spike's in love and happy, (and it's well written), I'll read it and enjoy it.  Unless of course it has Angel, in which case hack, spew, gag!  Simply can't stand Captain Forehead anymore!

However, at this point in the story -- that is to say, after Spike left his girlfriend of a century for Buffy, after he loved Buffy hopelessly for so many years, after he got his soul back for her, after he told her "she's the one" -- I wouldn't buy him falling in love with another woman (or man, if we're talking Spangel).

I think he could. Loving Buffy is hard. She makes dating her very hard work. It's been a painful, unrewarding experience for every guy she's ever been with, so it wouldn't surprise me if even Spike, love's bitch, would finally say he's had enough. I think after this, Spike will always love Buffy, the same way Buffy will always love Angel - it was a significant, life-changing relationship that will always have a place in his heart. But it doesn't have to keep him from loving someone else. Especially if it's Angel, since the two of them have more history together than either one has with Buffy.

I think he could. Loving Buffy is hard. She makes dating her very hard work. It's been a painful, unrewarding experience for every guy she's ever been with, so it wouldn't surprise me if even Spike, love's bitch, would finally say he's had enough.

I don't think Spike would ever say that. "[His love for her] has nothing to do with him". And frankly, the reason I love Spuffy so much is because loving Buffy is hard. I want my characters to earn their happiness -- the bumpier the journey, the more rewarding the arrival at their destination will be. Having observed Spike and Buffy so closely and for so long, I'm much more interested in seeing their future than having Spike end up with Angel (whom I've only really seen him with in one season) or an original character of Lynch's/Whedon's.

(And for the record: Buffy's relationship with Spike must have been just as life-changing as her relationship with Angel, since Joss called them "the two most important men in her life".)

If Spike ever does throw in the towel and say to hell with Buffy, then you can have the Scarlett O'Hara turnaround and have her chase him for ten years or so.  It's the problems that make it great.  If Buffy ever gives in, or things went smoothly, who'd care? 

When does Joss say that Spike and Angel are 'the two most important men in her life'?

In an article on Entertainment Weekly:

Joss Whedon: I wanted to make definite statements about both relationships, but I had to do it in the same episode. It was weird. I had to do a lot of structural juggling to figure out how to make emotional sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once. So neither of them can deal with the fact of the other one, and Buffy just tries to get through the goddamn day.