Thinking about another conversation about our most liked and disliked characters on both Buffy and Angel I began to think of the "big" and little bad's.  Just who (or what) do you think were the most evil as you see evil?  Why?

For me there are three answers with the first two in no particular order (interchangeable to me in the evil department).

1.  The Initiative.  It was clearly shown to be just as it appeared....a continuation of the Nazi experimentation that mirrored RL.  The concept of "demonizing" a group of people and treating them as sub-humans was nicely shown with the literal demons that were held, experimented upon and ill treated in the story.  The "wrongness" of lumping individuals in a "worthless" category just rankles.  We saw on the show that many demon species were not hostile in the least but that mattered not.  Even the Council didn't promote the killing of werewolves (for example), yet the Initiative were all gung ho with grabbing Oz (even Riley had the "just another demon" attitude until Oz changed back and he recognized him as one of Buffy's friends!).  The entire attitude they displayed was evil IMHO and the worst that humanity can fall to.

2.  The Council.  This started with tribesmen CHAINING a girl to be invaded by a demon essence so she could fight the big evil monsters for them!  It never really changed much.  The Slayers were disposable at best (they even disposed of a few)...a mere flesh extension of those stakes they wielded in battle.  They withheld information, manipulated, twisted and lied.  They did little to help their Slayers and always at a price.  Meanwhile they were rich and fat and self important in their ivory towers.  

Now for the single most evil in my book.  I chose him because he is the fella down the block, the real danger to us all.  

3. Warren Mears.  This kid had a great mind and loads of potential but he was arrogant and lazy and had no regard for other human beings.  He wasn't even a decent friend to Andrew or Jonathan and let's not forget how "loving" he really was of Katrina!  He wanted power over others and cared not how he got it.  He was willing to destroy ANYTHING and EVERYONE who stood between him and what he wanted.  He felt himself better than others and more worthy of anything he wanted than anyone else.  He had no respect for anyone, not even his mother although he still accepted her shelter and food even though an adult.  He was pretty much every vice we are prone to in spades.  He was the worst of human tendencies who only was "sorry" when caught and only then for the length of time he thought he needed to weasel his way out of reaping his rewards.  His human "soul" did him no good whatever as he was amoral completely.  There was no redeeming  trait shown in this character (save his building the delightful Buffy Bot who I liked a lot).

What do you think?

I think it's interesting that who you chose as your three most evil were all human, where in Buffyverse the slayer would give them all a free pass just because they had a beating heart and the supposed needed 'soul'. But I tend to agree with you, that the most evil in the show was the humans. Warren, is, who I defiantly think is the most evil in the show. When Willow went dark in that season I didn't think she'd gone evil, I think she was doing what most humans would have done. Most people would want, and even would, kill the person who killed their lover, or their children. It's human nature to want revenge. I also consider in ATS, that Know was an evil little worm, but I don't consider Holtz evil for the same reason I don't consider Willow evil, or even Faith.

I also don't consider most demons evil, the way I don't consider a lion evil for eating an antelope. I think the reason the humans in the show got all, 'oh, they're evil, they kill,' is because they realized they weren't on the top of the food chain anymore. Just like when a tiger from the zoo attacked a guest there, everyone was saying the tiger went crazy. In the words of Chris Rock, 'That tiger didn't go crazy, that tiger went tiger.' Vampires and demons are just living on their natural instincts, eating what they need to survive. Most humans don't consider themselves murders when they kill a cow, or a chicken, a pig, of a deer. Even when they squish a bug, most don't feel remorse for it.

VERY thought-provoking thread! I think it's interesting that of your three choices, all are human (or at least human-run organizations), and none were ever featured as a "big bad" of the season. I'll probably have to think about it some more to come up with my choice for most evil, but I did want to comment on the Initiative.

I think you've hit on exactly why I hate season 4. The Initiative did set up the potential for an intense moral conflict for Buffy and the Scoobies - do demons count as people, and as a slayer of demons, is Buffy obligated to prevent humans from doing harm to demons? The answers to those questions seem pretty obvious the way you've framed it, but on the show at that time, the sentiment was very black and white, humans=good and demons=bad. I think putting Buffy in that situation, where she had to make that choice and potentially reevaluate everything the Council's told her, would have made for an outstanding season. It would have had a lasting effect on the tone and themes of the series, and would surely have changed everything that came after it. (Just think how much differently they would have had to treat Spike!)

Instead, they killed off Professor Walsh (who, IMO, had the potential to become one of the more intriguing villains of the series), and gave us Adam, who I detest for a whole host of reasons that I'll save for another discussion. The Initiative was really pushed to the background - Buffy wasn't really concerned with stopping the demon experimentation, she just wanted to stop Adam. She saw Spike's chip as a good thing, and never sought to help other vampires or demons who might have suffered the same experimentation. She never objected to the Initiative's practices unless it hurt one of her friends (Oz or Riley) or threatened human lives (because of Adam).

I think that shift in the season indicates an unwillingness on Joss' part to confront the moral issues you brought up, and a desire to maintain the black and white view of the world. Angel and his shiny soul, even though they got their own show, were still the predominant moral benchmark, and I don't think Joss was ready to move away from that. And that's a shame, because I think season 4 would've been so much better if Buffy had actually been faced with a human "big bad" and Adam had never existed. Also, on a purely thematic level, moving away from the demon big bad would have emphasized the shift from high school to college, the theme of growing up and changing and discovering the real world outside their sheltered high school life - one that contains many more shades of gray.

Exactly! I bet you if they had put a chip in a shark or something, Buffy and the scoobies would have been disgusted. But when they did it to Spike, no, not even a mention about how it was sick and wrong. He couldn't even feed himself. How would they like it if every time they tried to eat a hamburger, they got a shock that fried their brain! Stravation is one of the cruelest forms of torture, because you slowly waste away and the pain you body goes through as it tries to eat itself for nurishment. Spike even said Vampires end up half-living skeltons, how sick is that.

Go, Eowyn!

I think that's why Season 4 suffered ratings-wise after a while and a lot of fans rate it as one of the worse seasons, at least for the Initiative storyline. The other stuff was pretty entertaining.

I would have respected the hell out of Joss and the writers if they'd gone your way, with examining the true morality of the Initiative. AtS didn't suffer nearly so much black/white, so I don't know why they couldn't have done it on BTVS. They were so nearsighted, and really lacked the balls to truly explore all those questions that come with being an adult. When kids enter college, they often find most or all their beliefs at least questioned and tested, if not changed, by lectures that introduce new ideas, and professors that are pros at making an argument. To have showed the characters at least thinking about it, even if they still chose wrongly, would have really helped keep the respect for the Core 4 with fans in later seasons.

As you said, it would have changed everything that came afterwards. Gosh, they even had an AtS episode where Angel was confronted with finding out he killed an innocent demon, and he needed to think outside the box when he faced an opponent. They showed several relatively harmless demons, as well as half-breeds, on the show, and it was much more realistic to what you'd expect if they existed in the world. None of us fit in a box.

Caro Mio

I think you are right.  Season 4 SHOULD have been about that transition.  That learning there is a wide world of "truth" you've never expected.  That all you've been taught thus far is not necessarily so and that the world has many colors and shades.  Joss back pedaled to the position of human/soul = good and demon/no soul = evil or comic relief.  A potentially fabulous season was wasted.  

Maggie Walsh was the evil along with the bigots she had working for her.  Adam was a victim and a paper tiger.  

The episode of Angel called The Ring in S1 did a better job of that gray area as Wes and Cordy helped free not only Angel but all the demons, good and bad, dangerous and not because the humans running the "dog fights using demons" were wrong and evil.  They had the opportunity on Buffy and didn't take it.  

Willow, being raised Jewish, should have seen the parallel at least and been against the Initiative on principle.  She understood the wrongs done to the Chumash Indians with no trouble after all!  I can see Xander signing on as he had the same black/white view of demons and needed to mature (as he started to do in S7) to see how wrong he was and how unfair to Anya with it.  Buffy never was hard hearted on the show until this.  How she could join forces and not see the wrongness eludes me.  It seems out of character at this point in her development.  After all she had already loved Angel and joined forces with (and let leave town unmolested) Spike.  She had hated the idea of Faith killing the demon for the book of Ascension as he had done no harm.  Buffy should have had many questions about the entire set up beyond tactics.

Warren was the worst IMHO because at least the Initiative and Council seemed to have convinced themselves they were acting for the higher good.  Personal evil versus collective.  Rather like deciding between a Ted Bundy or political entity for depth of depravity!  

Glad I'm not the only one to see the humans as the worst evils shown.

Kathleen

Oh, and Warren is definitely one of my top evils from both series. He's so disgusting, that I can't completely separate the actor and the character when I see pictures of Adam Bush. I've heard that he's lovely at cons, but Warren squicks me out sooooo much....I want to beat him with very heavy objects. There was absolutely nothing sympathetic about that character.

Humans were always the scariest, potential-wise, because the characters never expected it. Giles knows all too well the lengths humans can go to, but he still doesn't instruct the children, because it's easier for Buffy to do her job without thinking. Heaven forbid, the Slayer has to think! Willful ignorance disgusts me, you know. If someone is just unlearned, hey, not their fault, but when you *choose* to remain that way even when you have knowledge and tools right at your fingertips........ooooo, that just really pisses me off. 

CM

This is a really hard (but interesting!) topic... and a lot will depend on our prior moral beliefs.

Eowyn, I agree that season 4 would have been a good time to explore these issues, and it was largely missed.  Why is it OK for Buffy to slay vampires, but not for the Initiative to experiment on them?  Even Buffy intuitively felt like there was a problem with the Initiative, one that went beyond the fact that it was unable to distinguish between slayable demons and non-slayable demons. 

Maybe Joss wanted to dodge a very hard problem that comes from using the vampire/vampire slayer metaphors.  We respond to stories about heroes killing bad guys because it gives expression to our desire to combat evil.  But if you take that impulse and apply it to the real world, we know that there's a problem with the metaphor.  We're all too aware of the problem of 'demonizing' our enemies and seeing them as less than human somehow.  Joss certainly pointed to the problem by creating the Initiative.  But to follow through on it would put Buffy in a much more ambiguous light.  (And not just Buffy -- we're supposed to be happy when Spike goes out to help her slay vampires and kill other demons).  So I can see why he backed off.  The only way to save the metaphor and keep Buffy as a hero would be to argue that it's OK for good guys to slay bad guys if the bad guys are a threat to 'innocents'.  But then Buffy would have to be able to slay Warren and other evil humans.  The problem there being that Buffy would have to be the judge, jury and executioners of other human beings, and that's probably not such a good idea.

As for the question of what struck me as most evil -- I'll say that Angel's engineering of the battle with the Black Thorn at the end of A5 bothered me a lot.  I think some of the most terrible evil is done when "good guys" decide to use any means to eradicate all evil.   We don't live in a perfect world.  And once you start being willing to start wars to create 'perfection' bad things result.  Really bad things.  Think Stalin, Pol Pot, or the guys running the guillotine during the French Revolution.   They all thought they were fighting for a better world.  There has to be a considered judgment about what we can really accomplish and the price we are willing to pay to get there.  I don't think Angel showed that kind of judgment at the end of A5.  I'm quite keen to see how the comics pick this up when they start the A6 series. 

I think the Initiative was worse.  Just because you can delude yourself into thinking what you're doing is right doesn't make you better than the asshole who admits to being evil (e.g. Warren, or hell Angelus).  The Nazi like Inititative is definitely at the top. And then we had Walsh who was trying to create the ultimate demon, so that she could take over or whatever.  How many of those demons locked up and experimented upon do you want to guess were non violent?  Maybe some only ate vegetation or kittens.  Or hey, maybe a few of the vamps even had humans *pay* to bite them, and didn't kill anybody?  Who knows?  Then there's werewolves, who are only as such for thirty-six days a year.  Yet Oz deserved to be beaten, experimented upon, humiliated, and thrown in a cell with no clothes.

No wait... if he's one of Buffy's friends, only *then* does it make a difference who the demon is.

However, at least they gave Spike the "hero music" and Indiana Jones slide when he escaped.  Though it still ain't much.

What bothered me most was that Buffy never got to confront Walsh on trying to kill her.  I don't see why they evaded the whole "human= big bad" in season four, since in the previous season, we have Faith, who's supposed to be "inherently good" due to the fact of not only having a soul, which they put so much emphasis on, but was also a Slayer with a sacred duty and so forth, and the Mayor, who started out as human (he sold his soul, right?).  The big bads of that season were human, mostly.  Furthermore, they said it was okay for Buffy to attempt to kill Faith in order to save a vampire.  Gray much?  Why wouldn't it be okay for her then to go after Maggie, who tried to kill her, and could possibly be gunning for all of her friends?

And I don't think Angel's Black Thorn deal was so much evil as it was horrendously misguided.  In addition to that, there were three intelligent men in that room when they all decided to do it (Spike, Gunn and Wes), and none of them told Angel "are you out of your friggin' mind?  That's crazy," so if you want to place blame... you'd have to blame them all.  Oh, Lorne too.  And after all, he did what he set out to do- to take down Wolfram and Hart, even if it was only temporary.

Hmm, while I completely agree with you where the Initiative is concerned (s4 really disgusted me), I seem to have a quite different view on Warren.

Let's start with the Robot episode. It actually annoyed me how strongly the Scoobies reacted to Warren having build himself a robot-girlfriend. So he had sex with her, how is that different from someone owning a blow-up doll, or visiting a whore? While a lot of people might consider that low or disgusting, I've never heard anyone called "evil" for paying for sex. And what if the robot was more than just a sex-toy, what if she acted more like a real girlfriend than a doll? Escort-services, marriages for convinence or money, again, maybe not high thought of, but not uncommon and certainly not "evil". The fact that he couldn't bring himself to just destroy her or switch her off actually made him more symatphic in my eyes, because even though he knew she was just a bit of wires and clever programming, he still couldn't bring himself to "kill" her because she "seemed" human. Droping her like a hot iron the second a real girl showed interest in him? Again, he's not the first or last guy to drop one girl for another (works the same the other way around). Warrens bahvior in that episode might not have made him the most sympathic guy, and it didn't make me want to be his friend, but I don't think he was as horrible and disgusting as the Scoobies made him out to be.

His (or actually the Trio's) constant attemts to challenge/hurt Buffy? I honestly don't think they saw it the way we did. They lived in a world of Comic-books and fantasy, saw themselves as the big "villians" who's only goal it is to destry the "hero" in the most futuristc and complicated way possible. Do you really consider the Joker evil in the same way as some mass-murderer you hear about in the news? It's just a game, isn't it? And I don't think those three understood that what they were doing wasn't a game.

Katarina. Using that orb on her to make her their "sex-slave" is cerstinly something that can be considered evil, but again I don't think they quite realized what they were doing. That became pretty clear when you heard them talking about what they were attempting to do. They called it "getting some girls" and were joking (childishly) and dreaming about it, that not how I think a rapist who knows what he is doing would talk. Besides, Andrew and Jonathan were all game with using the orb, but we don't call THEM evil for it, so that can't be were Warren's evilniss lays either.

Killing Katarina. Let's be fair here, killing her was an accident. And while I agree that Warren's actions after her dead are what truly sets him appart from the other two, I had the impression that part of that was shock and panic. Getting rid of the body? That's exactly what Faith did after she killed her guy (not like those parallels were there by accident), but at that point everyone still agreed that she was panicing and needed help. Warren went a step further than Faith by actively trying to frame Buffy for the murder, or better, make Buffy think she accidentially killed Katarina. Despicable behavior, true, but still in tune with the messed up world-view we know those guys had. For Jonathan Katarinas death was the moment he started realizing that they weren't just playing a game, that their actions had very real effects on very real people, but I don't think Andrew and Warren had that same realization.

The whole bit with the Orbs of whatever was a return to their game of superheros and villians. Robbing a money-transport and escaping via space-pack only to show up at the local club later and impress some girls is not exactly the behavior of "serious" criminals, they were clearly still playing their game (at least in their eyes).

And when Warren went to kill Buffy? Frankly, I think he simply lost it. That wasn't a murder planned by an evil genius, I mean really, shooting her in broad daylight in fron to her friends? Running off to a bar (even a demon one) afterwards to brag about it while his face is plastered all over the news? Those are the actions of someone who has completely lost his grasp on the real world. It almost seemed like he considered himself merely a new player in the Slayer vs. demons game, only that unlike Buffy's friends, he wanted to be part of the demon side. And what he said when Willow caught him? You have to remember that he considered it all a game, and it follows that he thought himself immortal, unbeatable. After all, if you lose a video-game, you don't die, hell, not even your character does if you remembered to save the game regulary. And then suddenly he sees his dead in the eyes of a crazed witch, I don't think he belived what he saw, didn't grasp that the game was really over.

Whoa, rambling again. Anyway, I don't think Warren was evil in the sense of what the BtVS verse considers evil. I think he was a kid who lost his grasp on reality and couldn't differentiate between real life and video-games, between flesh and blood humans and the characters in a comic book. Considering that for the inhabitants of Sunnydale denial of reality is a part of everyday life, I'm actually surprised those three were the only ones to end up like that.

Ok, I guess that was me voicing one of my daft and unpopular opinions. *lol* You may rip it apart now. ;-)

Was Warren pathetic and misguided?  Yes.  But if he were on trial and I was on the jury, I'd still send his ass to prison.  At the end of the day, we all have a choice.  Warren was not mentally incapacitated by any means.  He wanted power over others, and would take it anyway he could get it.

The twinkie defense or, it was the music they listened to or the  video games they played doesn't fly with me.  Panicing and getting rid of a body, is still not okay, but understandable.  Trying to frame someone else, and showing no remorse only drives home the fact that he was in fact "bad."  Faith too, who also tried to set Buffy up, telling Giles that Buffy was the one who killed that guy.  And "I don't care" was her response...Yes, she was bad too.

Oh, I'm not saying her was innocent by any means. (Although I'd tend towards putting him into a mental institute instead of sending him directly to prison.) He definitly needed to be punished and locked away. But I don't consider his kind of evil on a level with the Initiative or the CoW or even the Mayor. All of those fully realized what they were doing, they simply came up with more or less grand reasons to justify their actions. "Yes, I'm performing Nazi-type experiments, but unlike them, I'm only using REAL sub-humans." "Yes, we're using and sometimes killing teenage-girls, but it's all for the good of humanity." "Yes, I'm gona sell my soul to become immortal, but I'm such a great guy, people should be happy I'll stay around." For them to have come up with those justifications, they must at some point have thought about what they were doing, they must have had moments where they wondered whether they were doing the right thing - and to ignore that question and come up with some flimsy excuse so you can continue doing what you're doing, THAT'S what defines real evil in my eyes.

Hi Scarlet,

True, they all went along.  But Angel had already set the whole thing in motion, and gave them only a brief bit of time to decide.  So for them, it was really just a question of trusting Angel.  Bad call, as it turns out.  But not the same as Angel who decided the whole thing.  Even as it was, Lorne decided to bail on Angel after the whole deal was over, and asked him to never try to look him up.  Spike and Wesley both are clearly shocked to learn that Angel killed a totally innocent guy, and are both quite concerned to hear about it.  

We'll find out what happens in a month or two.  I'm guessing that the writers will backpedal or find some way to downplay the consequences of what Angel did.  They routinely did the same for Buffy (try to kill Faith, so what; beat Spike into a pulp, so what).  But as we sit now, Angel killed Droggan and caused the death of Wesley in order to TEMPORARILY shut down Wolfram and Hart.  Meanwhile we've got a gazillion demons raining down on LA.  Looks like a pretty big body count from that.  And if there are, it's on Angel's head.  Is it worth causing thousands of deaths in order to temporarily shut down Angel and Hart?  Millions?  That's what Angel was at least risking.  LA is heavily populated.  But to keep him as a 'hero' I'm guessing we will learn that somehow that parade of demons didn't hurt anyone but the folks in the alley.  And we will not be asked to ask whether it was really heroic to risk the destruction of LA in order to feel good about fighting the good fight, even though you know perfectly well nothing is really going to change for the better as a result. 

And I don't see what counts as 'miscalculation' here.  Angel knew that there would be no real change as a result of his action; he knew that hardly any of the FG would survive; and he knew that the retaliation could have effects on others.  He decided to do it anyway.  He thinks its worth it.  And so would say all the people who cause a lot of deaths in order to 'do good'.

Meanwhile, I just mentioned this cause I don't think anyone else would.  Warren is a pure psychopath and evil.  The Iniative was also scary evil.  I totally agree about that.

This is an really provocative line of discussion.  One on those ones that has me nodding and agreeing as I read through the comments, even when they are arguing different sides. LOL  I don't think there is any question that the Initiative was an evil organization, although we are apparently meant to believe the Maggie Walsh was the evil behind it and once she was gone, only her non-human creation was left to be the villain. So, I'd like to think that Joss (or the writers - I don't know if he was concentrating on the first season of Angel too much then or not) saw the parallels with Nazi Germany (a theme he uses more blatantly in AtS), but I'm not so sure.  I know that a huge number of my season IV fics seem to end up with the Initiative as the baddy - although not in all of them.  So I apparently swallowed the Initiative = not evil line, even if it did make me uncomfortable sometimes.

The CoW can be easily viewed as evil.  There's nothing worse than smug prigs who are sure that the ends justify the means when it comes to fighting "evil".

Warren is a slime ball, and all about the power; but Dia's view is one that actually sort of works for me.  I still would have punished him though - he just wasn't a likable character for me.

Okay, I've contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion except words that take up space. lol Going away now.

Hmm... I still gotta go with Walsh as the ultimate big bad.  At least, more so than Wilkins.  The woman wanted to do an *ethnic cleansing,* and to me, that will always be worse.  A war like Wilkins orchestrated is bad, mmkay, but mass genocide trumps them all in the big bad category IMHO.

And...the Council were a bunch of arrogant wankers, but I wouldn't call them evil.  Awful, sure, what with their ridiculous trials, but not evil.  And, when they first started, in Africa with the First Slayer, well, those were primitive times, people, and they needed a weapon.  At least they acknowledged that a woman would be more capable of getting the job done than a man, and be able to handle or cope with it better, and be less likely to abuse the power (but they probably figured she'd be easier to control as well).  That's progress, in a very skewed and wrong way...

The woman wanted to do an *ethnic cleansing,* and to me, that will always be worse.  A war like Wilkins orchestrated is bad, mmkay, but mass genocide trumps them all in the big bad category IMHO.

Here's an interesting thought, a different take on the question. We've been focusing mostly on motives and intentions and beliefs in determining evil... but what about actions, as that statement suggests? 

I feel like Glory is really too dumb to be considered the evilest villain of them all, but if we're judging based on actions, isn't collapsing all the dimensions into one another kinda worse than anything? I mean, yes, mass genocide is bad... but Glory would've been committing mass genocide in multiple dimensions, potentially turning every existing dimension into an unimaginable hell. And for a purely selfish reason - she wanted to go home, and didn't care who she had to kill to do it.

See, when I first saw this thread, my judgment on evil was, "Who caused or tried to cause the most damage?" but then I got sidetracked by the Initiative thing. I think, in that comparison, Glory comes out on top.

But the dimensions collapsing and whatnot would only occur if the Key still lived.  If the Key was dead, then none of that would happen. And either way, her intent was not to destroy everything or certain people, etc.  Maggie Walsh's intent was genocide, so she's worse in my book.

And, if the monks had made the key a small animal or something (since it had to be living) or maybe a plant, then Glory could've went home without all the ruckus. Bleeding a small animal, like a chicken, wouldn't take too long, and morally, wouldn't be hard to kill.  Turning it into a human just because they didn't have the time to do with the Key's energy as they wished makes what they (the monks) did worse than Glory, technically.  They had the opprotunity to destroy it, but thought it best to weild it from inanimate object to innocent human being, putting even more lives at risk (Buffy, her family and friends), and dumping a boat load of responsibilty onto someone, and they weren't even going to tell her!  If Buffy hadn't come across that monk through happenstance, and he had he not been on the brink of death, I don't think she would've known what the hell was going on, and probably just assumed Dawn to be some evil demon trying to insinuate itself into her life, and trying to kill her mom. 

Glory was a tard, but wasn't so much big with the evil.  Kinda like Harmony, but with more powers, sadled in a mortal body, and desperate to go to Hell.

Um... anyway, the long and short of my point was that the Glory business was all the Monk's fault, and Maggie is still way worse.

Oh, and if we approach it from "who caused the most damage" angle, then we'd have to add Xander in the top ten, for he summoned Sweet, resulting in the deaths of many Sunnydale civilians (which would put him above Warren, cause he knew hours before how the demon came to Sunnydale, and that he was responsible for bringing him there, and that he was burning people to death through song and dance and said *nothing*), and the possiblity of casualties (I'm not sure if anyone actually died or not) in "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered."

lmao, Verity.  Yeah, the many "yawns" through us all through a loop.  But I got to thinking about it... Walsh knew what she was doing- she tried to make Adam indestructible, and actually his plan, was his "mother's" plan- the demon/soldier massacre at the Initiative so that Adam and she could have parts to build with, and have Riley as their right hand.  If you're doing "good," then why would you need behavior modification chips for people who are fighting on your side?  She wanted to control Riley and the rest of the town/world.

And, if the monks had made the key a small animal or something (since it had to be living) or maybe a plant, then Glory could've went home without all the ruckus. 

Well, that would've been fine for Buffy and the gang, since they just wanted to get rid of her... but the whole point was that the monks didn't want her to go home at all. The point wasn't to make it easy for her to leave; they didn't want her to get the Key or use the Key - hence making it human and someone Buffy wouldn't be reluctant to kill. And considering they were trying to keep her out of the dimension where she caused so much damage, and keep her here, where she was at least trapped in a human body and thus limited in her powers, I don't think what they did was all that wrong.

Oh, and if we approach it from "who caused the most damage" angle, then we'd have to add Xander in the top ten, for he summoned Sweet, resulting in the deaths of many Sunnydale civilians

That would put him above Warren, yeah, but I doubt it puts him in the top ten. Haven't we had at least that many apocalypses? 

Oh, and here's something else to chew on - no one's mentioned Wolfram and Hart. Where do they rank on the evil scale?

Oh no, the commandos again. Yawn. I'll go get a diet Coke and come back when I hear Spike's voice again.

ROFLMAO!

I've been thinking about Wolfram and Hart, but I've been too busy today to write something out. Big corporate evil + ultimate demonic power= uh-oh...

CM

Well, considering that the monks obviously didn't have problem putting a human at risk, because even with the Slayer as a protector they must have known there was a high chance the key wouldn't survive, why in the world didn't they just kill off the human host? With magic enough to transform the key, you'd think they would have been able to find Ben and get rid of him - presto, no more Glory. THAT would have been the right thing to do, especially since it wasn't like Glory was all that harmless while sharing her body - she DID suck out all those brains.

And I don't think you can measure someone's evilness by counting how many people they killed. For BtVS, we'd have to ask whether we should count demons (at least the harmless ones) - which might very well put Buffy herself into the running for Big Bad. If Glory had suceeded, she'd have killed a lot of people, but the same goes for Willow. If you go by bodycount, does that mean the Allies were more "evil" during WWII than the Swiss who just sat by and watched the killings? Don't think so.

I guess the First was pretty evil as well, but it was so lame, it's easily overlooked. But from what it said to Buffy in that one episode, it WAS the manifestation of all the evil in all of us.... And Angelus was pretty horrible as well, HE tried to destroy the world for no other reason than that he thought it'd be fun. At least the Master thought he was creating some kind of vampire-heaven, Angelus plan would have destroyed the demons and vampires as well (as Spike pointed out so nicely).

Btw, in my case the not counting of W&H is because I didn't watch AtS.

Oh yes!  W & H (and the senior partners) have to fit in there.  Interesting blend of demon and human evil there.  

I can't believe I'm going to defend Xander *G* but when he summoned Sweet he really was clueless about what he was letting loose. He was too afraid to fess up later.  I think the worst to say of that is it was a real character flaw with him to not assume responsibility for his bad judgement or accidental damage (like the Hyena incident).  He never apologized or seemed to feel remorse at all...and as you've said, didn't clue anyone in early on when people started to die.  Bad, but not actually evil IMHO.

Speaking of not expressing remorse.....there is Anya who as Anyanka had 1100 years of eviserations, deaths, turning men into demons and trolls, inflicting diseases (many deadly)....oh yeah, she doled out misery in spades!

Angelus is a contender for all the reasons stated (and I even side with Angel being an "evil-doer" in NFA as he disregarded so many lives just because he was tired of the fight!  He killed Drogyn and manipulated his only friends into a suicide act to be a roadblock...a speed bump to W&H!)

Great thoughts from everyone.  I shake my head and agree as I read.

Let's not forget Caleb too...he welcomed letting the FE inhabit him because he wanted to do far more damage than he could as a mere evil human.

Willow (not evil, just deranged) could have had the highest death toll when her "mercy" led her to try to destroy the entire world but I really just see that as the anger phase of grief in the hands of a very powerful, temporarily crazed, witch.

Kathleen

1.  The Mayor.  I think the Mayor was definitely up there on being evil.  I mean, he started out human, but deliberately planned and built up something that intended to make him a demon, and kill countless humans in the process.

2.  Maggie Walsh.  Now, I'm probably gonna get shot down on this, but I actually liked the Initiative.  I don't mean I like what they did, but handled differently, I think they could have been better than what they were.  I liked the way it started in the beginning of the season.  (Read:  I hate Adam).  Maggie Walsh seemed to be the brains behind the operation, and despite the fact that there were obviously higher ups that knew about it, she seemed to be in charge.  I think she could have been a great Big Bad, had she not been killed off so soon.  Also, then season four could have been used to explore the issues of "not a black/white demon world"

3.  And finally, Lilah.  I've only seen up to the beginning of Angel season 4, so I may not know something, but Lilah just seems to be pure evil.  (And to me, she seems sort of two-dimensional.)  I mean, "Pure evil law firm planning the end of the world?  Where do I sign up?"  Sure, there's a great 401K, but what motivates her to evil?  She's even said several times that's she's evil.

I disagree with everyone today. 

Eowyn:  gave us Adam, who I detest - Eow, how can you hate a guy who has his own handle?  Think how useful that would be.

Maggie 2: We'll find out what happens in a month or two.   - Am I missing something?  Is Angel coming back?

The Initiative isn't pure evil - they do good things - they put a chip in Spike's head to make him stop killing people.  Buffy could only have staked him.  Presumably they are using behavior modification chips on other beings to make them behave as well.  (What happened to Hostiles 1 through 16?) Also, the soldiers go out and kill demons.  If it's good when Buffy kills demons, it's good when they do it.  The problem comes when a person in charge - Maggie - perverts the organization for her own ends.  She tries to kill Buffy because Buffy annoys her and she's jealous of Riley's attention.  As for Adam and the other demons, Maggie is not setting out to kill them.  If that was her goal, why create Adam?  She's probably working on creating a race of Uber soldiers.  Also, she represents so called 'pure' science that insists on advancing knowledge without regard to the human cost.  They may come up with astonishing discoveries, but the cost is too dear.

The Council is a similar organization - it does good.  It maintains the knowledge and trains the Watchers who support the Slayer.  It fights evil and protects humans.  It also does bad because it is in the hands of a flawed leader, Quentin Travers.  It's main problem is that it's been around so long that it's encrusted with old thinking and clinging to unsuitable ways.  The Cruciamentum springs to mind (although it's hard to imagine what purpose that ever had).

Warren, too, is not pure evil.  He is lonely so he uses his genuis to create April.  He tells Buffy:  I know what you're thinking, but I made her a real girlfriend.  He doesn't just want a sex partner, he wants someone to talk to, to love him, etc.  His creation is flawed and he rejects her for a real woman.  Warren disintegrates after he accidentally kills Katrina.  He is too big a coward to face up to what he's done and starts down an evil path which ends with his death.  As Spike becomes better a little bit at a time, Warren slides into evil one step at a time.  I note that Warren still lives at home, apparently happily, with his mother, until Buffy locates his lair.  He must at least be pretty nice to his mother, since she continues to put up with him (and let nice vampires like Spike into the house.)

Ankaya and Halfrek and D'Hoffryn make a much better case for evil - but even they think that they are helping people by exacting revenge, or justice as they like to put it.  Since their actions go far, far beyond anyone's notice of justice, they are evil.

You could make a good case for Darla.  She's bad to the bone. 

Am I missing something?  Is Angel coming back?

What happened to Hostiles 1 through 16?

Well, we can't be sure, but given the way this kind of research tends to work, I think it's a safe bet that not all of them survived the experimentation. And I would guess that, not being able to defend themselves against humans, any that were still in the Initiative at the end of the season would've been killed in the big battle.

I think for the most part, what people are objecting to is the experimentation, more so than the killing.

:D oi Darlas not bad to the bone at all!! just look at that whole debackle before she vamped again, and even after. Even back in the boxer rebellion she was showing angel mercy wanting him in the fold soul or not.

I see warren as nothing more then a nasty rapist swine with no qualms once his "pride" is stubbed and a deep rooted hate for women. We got with him what most victims never get in real life, a good Hiding! mwahahahah

Great thread.  I think the writers had a lot of fun toying with concepts of good and evil on the show.  I'm not quite sold on the concept of organizational evil (The Initiative, The Watcher's Council), although it seems groups like Hitler's 3rd reich and Al Qaeda are always popping up to prove me wrong.  Besides, I think the organizations in question rise above the various sins attributed to them for the simple reason that they were formed to keep people from getting eaten. :)

As far as individuals go, Warren seemed a very nasty customer indeed.  But Mayor Wilkins ties him, particularly with his seduction and exploitation of Faith - the most damaged and defenseless character on the show IMO.  They're the top of the evil heap, as far as I'm concerned. 

After that, there's a really crowded second rung of evil-osity that includes lots of bit players and monsters (Glory, The Master, Adam, Caleb), and even a few semi-scoobies (Anya, Andrew, Spike, Faith).  The main split for me is the fact that the lesser baddies were in some way corrupted by either their inherent nature or by external forces before they took their little walks on the dark side.  Of course, that's no excuse, but it sets the bar a little lower.

Wow... Okay, putting a chip in anybody or anything's head to alter their behavior is wrong. It wasn't her, or anybody's place.  You start that line of thinking, then where does it end?  Vampires or demons weren't the only threats or things that lurk about killing.  Look at Warren.  Should he get a chip too?  And, as a matter of fact, Maggie did chip humans, or at least one- Riley.  She wanted to control everyone, and only started with demons because she knew she'd receive little or no resistance.  I have no doubt she would've worked her way to everyone, eventually. These people are inferior, or these people could be better, etc.  Either chip them, or take them out was Maggie's way of thinking, and clearly the people who worked in the Initiative had no qualms about it.  She couldn't do all of those tests alone, after all.  And to torture and abuse beings who look so much like humans, that's sick.  I mean, abuse period is bad, but to look at another human being (or seemingly so), and have no problem doing it says alot about one...

 Does Oz get a chip?  Anya?  Tara, I mean, she thought she was a demon, and no one would've known the difference had it not been for Spike.  None of them would fit in Maggie's ideal of a proper being, unless they were hacked for parts, and put back together.

he Mayor didn't exploit/seduce Faith- she came to work for him after killing his assistant.  He didn't go looking for her.  And, he came to see her as the daughter he never had, and probably was the only person who really treated her nicely- like family.  Yeah, Joyce invites her over for Christmas, which is cool, but he doesn't take advantage of her (like she expected him to).  She'd clearly been abused, and thrived for his genuine affection.  Look at his face when he sees her in a coma in the hospital bed.

And Darla's not bad- merely a creature of habit.

I hate to admit it but the Mayor IS evil, gosh darn it!  Proof that even with good solid family values (and a love of Marmaduke cartoons) you can be evil in the end. Actually all kidding aside....there may be parallels there with certain religious zealots....hum..........

Kathleen

LOL, SI - obviously you haven't read my fic!  Not saying that there weren't any evildoers working for the Initiative.  There are bad folks in every profession and corner of life.  But that doesn't necessarily translate to a "bad idea."

IMHO, Oz gets a chip just to make him more interesting.  And Anya gets a chip to stop her from slaughtering frat boys :)

As for Faith, I clearly listed her in the "evil" category.  Not making excuses for her, just pointing out how "super"evil it is when you prey on people's weaknesses to advance your own agenda.  Which is what the Mayor did.  Faith was not a daughter to him.  IMO she was a finely crafted weapon, and the Mayor didn't take kindly to being disarmed.

Warren falls in the same category by corrupting Johnathan and Andrew.  Its the same reason people still demand Osama Bin Laden's head.  He has plenty of monsters in his employ, but his will to exploit and weaponize them is what makes him so incredibly evil.

Ah, yes...but the Mayor did mourn her- unlike Trick or whatever his assistant's name was.  For them, it was more like "what a shame."  But with Faith, it made him really want to kill Buffy for it.  He was scared when he saw her apartment in disaray.  Evil like father, sure, but he was more involved with Faith, and cared about her more than Buffy's father cared for her.  I see the Mayor's relationship with Faith on the opposite end of the spectrum of Buffy and Giles.  Grooming her "evilness" and so forth, but still with the careful grooming ;)

And Andrew was just a soft minded individual, and followed anyone with a hint of power.  Had it not been for the First's interference, he would've followed Jonathan, and did whatever he wanted him to (and ya know, not killed him, lol).

Oh, and I'm still anti chip :P

I was thinking about this last night and talking to the hubby about the responses, etc.  I remember the scene on Ats when Spike had his hands reattached and he and Angel were talking of their lives as vampires.  Angel made the point that it had all been about the evil for him and it had mostly been the fist and fang for Spike (I paraphrase, obviously) and not the evil for evil sake.  Interesting then that Angel was tagged by the SP to head W&H....a place dedicated to evil for evil's sake! 

Yes, I've upgraded W & H to my list along with the Initiative and CoW....possibly in the number one position because they KNOW their objectives are to promote evil and do not delude themselves about a higher purpose like the other two.  It is also an amalgum of demon and human in that pursuit.

The Mayor is looking more and more like a metaphorical Jerry Falwell or extreme political ring leader who extolls "family values" and clean living all the while pursuing power at any cost and with no regard for any general good at all. 

Interesting.

Kathleen

That's one way of looking at Wilkins, Kath.  I rather like the actor's way though, who saw the Mayor as a very capable a-political politician (in an interview, I think he said he played him as "a very conservative democrat or a very liberal republican"").  I think the idea of him was to be all things to all people - until he got what he wanted.  Kinda reminds me of Clinton, actually.  I have my qualms about his presidency, but I still believe that if he had me alone in a room for an hour, I'd come out singing his tune :)

With Faith, I think that translated to a "view to a kill" mentality.  I agree with SI that there was a kind of superficial affection there, but I've never been of the opinion that evil people can't feel emotion.  In fact, I think that's what made Wilkins so compelling!  Still, he's an evil, self-serving Fagan who twisted an abused child for his own ends.  As far as evil goes, he may have them all beat pretty bad, but IMHO I don't think the writers intended any particular political statement with him.

Not to mention the humans who sacrificed girls for infinite riches and success. (reptile boy)

I really didn't get the whole 'soul' thing and why it was so special because those that did have one were more evil than those without one...considering in Buffyverse the 'soul' is meant to have some moral compass. You would think Buffy/Xander members of the soul-having fan club would have realized that the greater evil came from the humans.