BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Restless - Spike as Watcher?

Oct 30 2007 02:45 am   #1Spikez_tart

I was watching Restless the other day, which has the very strange Spike scenes. 

Scene 1 from Xander's dream - Spike is swinging back and forth (getting no where?) with Giles, wearing a goofy suit and says that Giles is going to show him how to be a Watcher, that he's got the stuff.  Considering how much Xander dislikes Spike - why does this appear in Xander's Dream and does anyone think that Joss was trying out a role for Spike that he eventually abandoned?  Or something else altogether?

SPIKE: Giles here is gonna teach me to be a Watcher. Says I got the stuff.
GILES: Spike's like a son to me.

Scene 2 from Giles dream - Spike appears as a freak show act and is having his picture taken while he mugs for the cameras.  Is this Giles questioning his life work or something? 

And, Spike doesn't appear in Buffy's dream at all - which considering Season 5 - kind of strange that we're not seeing any foreshadowing of him being a pest at least.

What's everybody think?

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 30 2007 03:49 am   #2Guest

I have no idea why it was included in Xander's dream as opposed to any of the others, but I always thought the swing set scene was meant as a foreshadowing of Tabula Rasa, when Spike dresses in a similar suit and thinks he's Giles' son. 

Maybe it's meant to reveal some of Xander's insecurity? He obviously doesn't have a good relationship with his own father (as evidenced by other scenes in the dream, as well as other episodes), so he kind of sees Giles as a father figure. Hearing Giles say that Spike is like a son to him might be Xander's brain telling him he's not good enough, having him be replaced in Giles' eyes by someone he hates.

Oct 30 2007 03:50 am   #3Guest

Dammit, how'd I get logged out again? That was me up there.

~Eowyn

Oct 30 2007 02:16 pm   #4SpikeHot

  

I agree with Eowyn. Spike's appearance in Xander's dream was all about Xander. It was his dream, anyway. Xander's lack of self-confidence when it comes to acceptance and rejection.

He used to see Giles as a father figure, and since Giles hardly ever paid attention to Xander (he appeared mostly close to Buffy and Willow throughout the show), Xander felt that he was not good enough to have Giles' attention, Xander's insecurity was too extreme that his subconscious had him see Giles see someone he (and Giles) hated more worthy than him.

Spike wearing the suit was also a foreshadowing to Tabula Rasa where he wore a stuffy suit and was thought of as Giles' son.

Oct 30 2007 02:28 pm   #5Scarlet Ibis

It's strange-- he thinks Watcher and Giles mentoring Spike comes to mind, as opposed to oh say...Wesley.  He sees Giles and Spike as having a special bond that he can't be apart of.  Also, his subconscious mind views Buffy as a little sister, playing in a sand box, while Willow and Tara are the two hot lesbians making out in the back of his car (just pointing out that his view of Buffy was in no shape or form sexual, but his other bff, and not his girlfriend, is).

As for Giles, well, Buffy is of course seen as his daughter, he's concerned about the others dirtying his things (his sofa had been recently steamed clean), and Spike, though a spectacle, is viewed as utterly harmless, and just their for show.  Yeah, I think that sums up his thoughts on Spike (which makes LMPTM all that much more strange and out of place).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 31 2007 02:21 am   #6Eowyn315

It's strange-- he thinks Watcher and Giles mentoring Spike comes to mind, as opposed to oh say...Wesley.

I don't think it's that strange that it was Spike instead of Wesley. Wesley might make more sense in terms of Watcher relationships, but dreams aren't always logical like that. I think the association is much more about the people Xander interacts with in his waking life. Wes hasn't been a part of their lives for a year at that point, whereas Spike has been very much around - even to the point of living with Xander.

He sees Giles and Spike as having a special bond that he can't be apart of.

Maybe this is another aspect of Xander feeling useless to the group? That was a pretty big theme for Xander in season 4. He's the "normal" guy, without any powers. Spike, who at least has super strength and can fight demons, is actually more useful to the group (as long as he's helping) than Xander is.

Also, his subconscious mind views Buffy as a little sister, playing in a sand box, while Willow and Tara are the two hot lesbians making out in the back of his car (just pointing out that his view of Buffy was in no shape or form sexual, but his other bff, and not his girlfriend, is).

That IS actually really interesting. I wonder if that's an indication that Xander really doesn't have feelings for Buffy anymore - that he sees her as a sister more than anything else. I think the lesbian thing is a fairly typical teenage guy thing, so I don't put much meaning behind that, although he DID have feelings for Willow not that long ago. 

Spike, though a spectacle, is viewed as utterly harmless, and just their for show.  Yeah, I think that sums up his thoughts on Spike (which makes LMPTM all that much more strange and out of place).

A lot has changed by the time we get to LMPTM, though. Spike's chip has been removed, and he's got a trigger that could make him an unconscious killing machine (and, in fact, already has) - in other words, rendering his soul useless. If he doesn't know he's doing it, he can't feel bad about it or stop himself. So, I don't think Giles views Spike as utterly harmless anymore - hence the attempt to take him out. (FYI, I don't think Giles was right, just saying he's got a different mindset in LMPTM than he did in Restless.)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 31 2007 02:37 am   #7Scarlet Ibis

Well...at least we get to see Xander thinking of Buffy as a sister :D  Not that it'll matter in the long run with the comic, though. 

But back on topic, kinda, is Buffy in the crypt when Giles goes to see Spike in his dream?  If so, how do they interact in Giles' mind?  I don't recall...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 31 2007 02:45 am   #8Eowyn315

I think it's funny that so many people insisted that Xander still had feelings for Buffy, as late as season 6, and that's why he hated Spike so much... but now it's all, "No, he thinks of her as a sister!" so that there's no justification for relationship in the comics. :)

I don't think Buffy was in the crypt... or if she was, she didn't do or say anything in reaction to Spike. Giles does say, "I still think Buffy should have killed you." I will admit, Restless is not my favorite episode, and since it's mostly dreams, it's easy for me to not pay attention to it without missing something important. :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 31 2007 03:05 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

I personally don't think Xander had romantic feelings for her in s6--I think it was more of a "Buffy must live on a pedestal" thing, and yeah, it probably stung because at the end of the day, she'd choose a soulless vampire over (metaphorical) him.  Rejection from those wretched teen years can stick with us for awhile, lol.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 31 2007 03:09 am   #10Spikez_tart

Spike wearing the suit was also a foreshadowing to Tabula Rasa where he wore a stuffy suit and was thought of as Giles' son.

This sort of postpones the question - In Tabula Rasa, everyone is able to identify some major part of their character, even tho they can't remember who they are.  Buffy calls herself Joan, Dawn and Buffy realize they're sisters, Tara and Willow are attracted to each other, Giles and Anya sense (and misinterpret) their partnership, etc. 

Spike decides that Giles is his "father" (reference to Giles once telling him that getting his chip was an opportunity for him to become a good guy?), objects to being named "Randy" and Spike later tells Buffy (who happens to be straddling him)  that he is a tragic figure - a vampire with a soul (and an Angel Investigations commercial). 

Maybe Joss was just cheaping out - he only wanted to show dreams from the core four - but couldn't resist slipping in a little Spike foreshadowing, under the others dreams. 

Scarlet - I generally hate dream stuff, too, possibly because I can never "get it." 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 31 2007 03:21 am   #11Scarlet Ibis

I think that with Tabula Rasa...Spike insinuates himself very intimately into the Scooby gang by default of being Giles' son, and what makes it wonderful is that Giles doesn't really object to it, and worries about him ("Son, come here.").  Buffy too--she has this need to protect Spike.  She doesn't get violent until it looks as if Randy is really about to be hurt.  And Xander has no real connection with anyone, which is very strange...

Oh, and I found "Restless" intriguing because I didn't get it ;) lol

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 31 2007 03:41 am   #12TammyDevil666

These are all very good points, but can anyone explain the cheese man?  That still confuses me to this day.

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Oct 31 2007 03:49 am   #13Unbridled_Brunette

According to Joss, the Cheese Man represents the part of all dreams that makes no sense. So, essentially, he has no meaning. :)

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Oct 31 2007 03:49 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

Oh, he was just random and had no meaning.  I guess the fact that he is in all four of their dreams has to do with the spell?  Though, that still doesn't make much sense...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 31 2007 03:50 am   #15Eowyn315

And Xander has no real connection with anyone, which is very strange...

Xander thought he and Willow were dating at first, although the Willow/Tara thing sort of disproved that idea.

I think there's a distinction, though, between assumptions the characters made based on instinct (Buffy and Dawn being sisters, Buffy naming herself Joan, Spike assuming he's a good vampire, Willow and Tara's connection) and assumptions based on "facts" (Spike assuming his name is Randy because of the name in the suit, Anya and Giles assuming they're married because they own the shop together, Xander and Willow assuming they're dating because she's wearing his jacket). In the first instance, I think it tells us something very deep-seated about the characters. The second really just tells us how bad they are at drawing conclusions, lol.

These are all very good points, but can anyone explain the cheese man?

There is no explanation. According to Joss, all dreams have that one thing in them that makes no sense at all, and that's why he put the cheese man in. Although, if you read fan analyses of the dreams, there have been plenty of interpretations.

Edited: Wow, we all jumped on that cheese man question, didn't we? :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 31 2007 01:47 pm   #16SpikeHot

I don't think it's about Xander seeing Buffy as a sister so much as it's about Xander finally accepting that Buffy sees him as a brother. But I agree that Xander seemed to move on since season four. I thought his hate for Spike was because, well, he's Spike. A guy who tried to kill them over and over. Xander hated him before Spike fell in love with Buffy. I don't think it ever had anything to do with Buffy.

Oct 31 2007 03:09 pm   #17JoJoBird

Oh and on the cheeze man, doesnt buffy LOVE cheeze? or is that another fanon ;D

Anyways ..I wear the Cheeze, It does not wear me! (i still quote this a healthy amount of times a year)

Oct 31 2007 05:14 pm   #18Guest

It was mentioned once that she liked cheese, but I doubt she loved it that much.  I just think everyone else is right and that wasn't supposed to make sense.  I remember Joss saying something like that before.  I guess I was still trying to find some kind of explanation for it.

-Tammy, she who is too lazy to log in.

Oct 31 2007 06:13 pm   #19Guest
Xander didn't hate Spike until he found out he was in love with Buffy. Before that, they were...as amicable as two sarcastic people can be. That, and in "Doomed," Xander saves Spike when he's almost knocked out by a huge piece of rubble. Oh, and when they're running from Glory, Xander...I don't want to say "makes amends" but whatever, he was nice to Spike, helping him light his cigarette. It's only bad between them when it involves Buffy. ~Scarlet
Nov 01 2007 01:30 am   #20Guest

Is it foreshadowing when it's not planned? In one of the commentaries I remember someone saying that they got the idea for putting amnesiac Spike in the tweed suit when they were writing Tabula Rasa because they remembered it showing up in a dream in Restless.

Varin

Nov 01 2007 04:10 am   #21Eowyn315

Is it foreshadowing when it's not planned?

Hmm... probably not, lol. I don't remember that commentary, but I figured if Joss could put hints to Dawn over a year before she showed up and Buffy's death two full years before it happened, I wouldn't put it past him to foreshadow something like this, either. I would guess, then, if it wasn't foreshadowing, that the father/son relationship is meant to show Xander's insecurities and issues with his own father and fatherly relationship with Giles.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 01 2007 09:13 am   #22LadyYashka

 These are all very good points, but can anyone explain the cheese man?

I'm probably over thinking this, but the cheese man reminds me of a children's song. I can't remember the title, or most of the lyrics, but I do remember some of the end. 

I believe it went: "The cheese stands alone, the cheese stands alone, Hi ho...the cheese stands alone."

And since the cheese stands alone, thus the Slayer stands alone. :P

Now if anyone else can remember the rest of this song, and possibly the correct lyrics I'd be thrilled. :)

Edit: Never mind! I found the song. It's The Farmer in The Dell, and I was right. The cheese stands alone. :P

http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/farmer.htm

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Nov 01 2007 03:53 pm   #23SpikeHot

 Xander didn't hate Spike until he found out he was in love with Buffy.

But Xander knew about Spike's crush on Buffy in season five. Some of the examples you have mentioned were after Xander knew about Spike's feelings for Buffy. In fact, in season six episode Normal Again, Xander had told Buffy that feels for Spike because he understands what it feels like to love Buffy and not get her love back.

Xander's dislike of Spike had really nothing to do with Buffy. It's about what Spike had done to them in the past, Jesse issues mixed up with Spike lacking a soul. He may save him and feel bad for him at times, but it's hard for Xander to trust Spike.

Nov 01 2007 06:29 pm   #24Eowyn315

I think Xander and Spike's relationship is far more complex than just "Xander hates Spike" or "it's about Buffy." I think Xander identifies with Spike way more than he wants to, and finds Spike a lot easier to get along with than he'd like to admit. Xander's pretty hard up for male friends - but he has a lot of issues, both with Spike personally and with vampires in general, that get in the way of really being friends with Spike. Some of those issues are legitimate, some are not. 

I actually tried to pin down a time when Xander consistently hated Spike, and I really couldn't do it. It seems like for every time Xander was rude or belligerent toward Spike, there's another time when he was friendly or at least tolerant. I think, most of the time, Xander takes his cues from Buffy - he tolerates him in season 4, considers him to be harmless and sometimes helpful, treats him badly after Crush, but is back to being nice by the end of season 5. And he's pretty accepting of Spike once he has the soul.

The only times I can think of when he doesn't follow Buffy's lead are when Buffy first comes back, and Xander is inexplicably an ass to Spike after working with him all summer, and Xander's reaction to the attempted rape. There may be others, but those two stood out as the most significant.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 02 2007 02:34 am   #25Spikez_tart

The writers must have had different opinions as to whether or not Xander liked Spike or hated him.  Xander did seem to be warming up to Spike after Glory beat the crap out of Spike and Buffy took away his bot.  It was probably the bot deprivation that brought on the sympathy.  He also may have had a secret sexual interest in Spike's hot body.  "Spike is strong & mysterious & sorta compact but well muscled."

Joss Whedon's comments re The cheese man are on the CD - cheese man isn't supposed to mean anything.  It's Willow that first brings up the Buffy likes cheese thing - Willow tells Riley about Buffy's cheese interest so he can have something to talk to her about.  Which goes so very well.  Also, in Fool for Love, Buffy says she wants to have a long expiration date "like a Cheeto."

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 02 2007 05:11 am   #26Eowyn315

Also, in Fool for Love, Buffy says she wants to have a long expiration date "like a Cheeto."

Please, please tell me you don't mean to imply that a Cheeto is like actual cheese... ;)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 02 2007 01:01 pm   #27SpikeHot

I never tried to find an explanation to the cheese man, since Joss himself said, he didn't mean anything.

I think the way to understand the core four better is to watch Restless. All their fears, character traites, strengths are in Restless.

Nov 02 2007 09:37 pm   #28Spikez_tart
Cheeto is like actual cheese...

LOL -- more like toes than cheese - I understand that one cheeto will burn for two straight minutes before all the grease is used up, so is the snack food of choice for spelunkers.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 21 2007 03:21 am   #29LindsayH

Going back to 'Restless,' there is Giles' line, "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!"  Looking at that through the lens of Xander feeling like he's standing still, not moving anywhere, etc.  Xander looks up to Giles and Spike in a lot of ways, on a kind of subconscious level, because they possess a lot of qualities Xander himself would like to have.  Mostly because they can contribute to the good fight in ways Xander simply can't--he doesn't have super strength, he doesn't have an Oxford education, etc. 

Xander also wants to be cool.  As someone said above, those old high school rejections die hard.  And come on, who embodies cool more than Giles and Spike?  (Tweed being a huge exception!)

That being said, I just loved the part of Xander's dream where he tells Buffy that it looks like she's playing in an awfully big sandbox.  I really loved the transition from crush to friend to sister that Buffy went through in Xander's eyes.  Too bad he couldn't have held onto that and lost the hero-worship.

"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Nov 21 2007 01:26 pm   #30SpikeHot

I don't see where Xander was hero-worshipping Buffy? Won't that make him less disagreeing with some of her decisions? Like her relationship with Riley, her way of treating Dawn in Real Me, her relationship with Spike, her plan in Empty Places and so on. If he hero-worshipped her, won't that make him blindly supportive of her? Kind of like Willow was in the high school years.

Nov 21 2007 10:08 pm   #31Eowyn315

Xander didn't hero-worship Buffy in the sense that he was sycophantic toward her, but he did put her in a different category from everyone else, held her to a higher standard because of who she was - which is why he was so critical of her relationships with vampires or whenever she didn't do what he perceived as "the right thing." Basically, he thought she was a superhero, and was continually disappointed when she turned out to be just a girl trying to get by.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 22 2007 12:07 am   #32Spikez_tart

 he was so critical of her relationships with vampires

I think that was more old-fashioned jealousy with a dab of vampires killed my best friend in high school.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 23 2007 01:53 pm   #33SpikeHot

I can see the jealousy with Angel, but with Spike it seemed more about who Spike was. Xander didn't seem to mind him in season seven.

Perhaps Xander lost his hero feelings for Buffy after season six, he was a bit fed up with her playing law in Selfless. But right after that episode, he seemed less critical of her decisions.

Nov 27 2007 08:44 am   #34Guest

IMO, Xander's always kinda been the "wallpaper" for the show and usually (but not always) a flat, one dimensional character, kind of like Cordelia in s1-3 of BtVS, used to complement the round characters (Buffy, Spike, etc.). I guess that just goes with being the everyman, though.

It's possible he grew up in season seven finally. Not carpenter phase growing up but actually growing up. It's amazing how he's one of the core four but he never really gets big events that change him like the other characters. While Buffy goes through several dramatic events (Becoming with Angel, Graduation Day with Angel, Innocence with Angel... see something here?:)), Xander just doesn't get into college, happens to like having sex with Anya, and gets a construction gig. It makes him a real enigma paired with his inconsistent behaviors (especially towards the end) concerning Spuffy. I guess you just can't fit stuff for everyone into a 40 minute show, sans a fun episode or two.

Nov 27 2007 04:51 pm   #35SpikeHot

 

It depends on what you mean by growing up. In the high school seasons, Xander had always thought of himself as less than anybody else. Every time he gets to see his worth, he gets knocked down and goes back to questioning his worth again. As we saw in The Zeppo, season four, The Replacement and Grave. But he still learns something from his experience.

He's insecure about everything, he doesn't think he's worthy of anything/any one, but as the series goes; he gets confident about each insecurity one after one but not all at once.

Having Cordelia fall for him made him realize he could be worthy of hot women's attention. The Zeppo made him more confident about his worth when he's by himself, not needing others to save him, Primeval made him realize he's just as smart as his friends, The Replacement made him realize he can be successful and a grown up in the real world, Hell's Bells made him realize that he can't damage Anya's life until he learns how to be someone better than the males in his family, Entropy made him realize that he can't go on joking about his life and he should face his problems seriously, Selfless made him realize that the world is not as he wants to see, not black and white and more gray, Grave made him realize he doesn't need superpowers to be a hero.

 With each development, you see a change in Xander's character, and that makes just as round as the others, makes him even more relatable than the others considering how human his issues are.

Nov 27 2007 07:12 pm   #36Eowyn315

I think Xander has definitely grown up and changed, but it's not as pronounced as the other characters. Maybe because it was a series of scattered Xander-centric episodes rather than an arc (like Willow's problems with magic or Spike getting a soul), or maybe because he doesn't change as drastically as the others. He never turns evil or develops a superpower. He just grows up with normal experiences - feeling undervalued and useless to his friends, discovering his own worth, assuming the responsibilities of a adult by getting a real job and his own place, and struggling with an adult relationship and the decision to get married. He changes not through torturous trials or a resurrection or a trip to the dark side, but in the ways he reevaluates his life and eventually accepts himself for his strengths and weaknesses. 

Considering that Joss always intended the show to be, at its heart, about real life problems and people we could relate to, rather than the magic and the demons, it makes sense that there's still one "everyman" in the bunch who doesn't need to have his life changed supernaturally in order to grow up, even if it does seem to give him a weaker character arc.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 28 2007 03:35 am   #37Scarlet Ibis

I agree with E--Xander was not just the wallpaper.  His accomplishments only paled in comparison because in comparison, his averageness was amplified by the fact that his friends has super powers.  I think he turned out okay.  He got a steady job and a promotion, insurance, his own place *with* a balcony, a car, and on top of all that, he was willing to be on the front line of an apocalypse several times over without the personal aide of super powers or magic :P

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 28 2007 04:05 am   #38Eowyn315

When you think about it, Xander was actually the most grown-up of them all, by real world standards. He may not have gone to college, but he was the only one to hold down a steady job with a living wage, the only one to live independently (I suppose you could argue that Buffy did that, too, but not very well), and the only one to have a serious enough relationship to even approach the idea of marriage.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2007 03:53 am   #39Spikez_tart

 Perhaps Xander lost his hero feelings for Buffy after season six - it was probably those General Buffy Speeches she was making.  LOL.

I think Xander's character was the one that everyone else was being measured against - he has no real advantages or special powers - he's kind of dork, not good in school or researching demons or computers or witchcraft, frequently fights like a lame girl, has a lousy family, no education, etc. etc. - he makes the best of what he's got and comes out a quiet kind of hero most of the time.  He's brave in his own way, with nothing to rely upon but himself.

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 30 2007 05:07 am   #40Eowyn315

Speaking of speeches... I always loved Xander's from Potential, and I think it not only illustrates the dichotomy we've been talking about, it also shows how much Xander has grown up and turned into a hero in his own right:

"Yeah. They’re special, no doubt. And the amazing thing is, not one of them will ever know. Not even Buffy... How much harder it is for the rest of us... Seven years, Dawn. Working with the Slayer. Seeing my friends get more and more powerful. A witch, a demon. Hell, I could fit Oz in my shaving kit but come a full moon he had a wolfy mojo not to be messed with. Powerful, all of them. And I’m the guy who fixes the windows... They’ll never know how tough it is, Dawnie. To be the one who isn’t chosen, to live so near to the spotlight and never step in it. But I know. I see more than anybody realizes because nobody’s watching me. I saw you last night. I see you working here today. You’re not special. You’re extraordinary."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2007 05:49 am   #41Scarlet Ibis

See, it's *that* speech that lead me to believe that there was a someday for Xander and Dawn...*sigh*  The writing never goes quite the way you want it to.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 30 2007 10:38 am   #42Guest

Yeah, I could see that being the beginning for them, too.......the little seed that will later grow once she's old enough.