BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
PassionMar 02 2008 02:21 pm #1Spikez_tart
Hi all - beginning of the week - time to discuss the important issue of why did Joss do that awful, pompous voiceover and what termitey woodwork did that goof Whislter pop out of?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
my first question about this episode, which is one of my all-time favorites is:
did you like or dislike the voice over - I have read opinions on both - I liked the voice over - maybe when you post your comments and while you watch the episode you can post your views on voice over -
did you like or dislike the voice over - I have read opinions on both - I liked the voice over - maybe when you post your comments and while you watch the episode you can post your views on voice over -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 03 2008 01:49 am #3Spikez_tart
Duh - that was Angel with the voice over and Buffy also at the end. Voice overs suck. Here it was used to beat the viewers over the head with the THEME. Give me a break.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Duh - that was Angel with the voice over and Buffy also at the end. Voice overs suck. Here it was used to beat the viewers over the head with the THEME. Give me a break.
What else did you find especially wrong about the episode? Or especially effective. Some might argue that the "rose, wine & petals" was a romantic cliche, but I found that their use served well for both the "my boy friend's gone to hell" of Angel-Angelus and the destructive path that love can sometimes take -
What else did you find especially wrong about the episode? Or especially effective. Some might argue that the "rose, wine & petals" was a romantic cliche, but I found that their use served well for both the "my boy friend's gone to hell" of Angel-Angelus and the destructive path that love can sometimes take -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 03 2008 04:34 am #5TammyDevil666
Not a favorite episode of mine as I hated seeing Jenny get killed, but I actually liked the voiceover. What I didn't like was the cruel set up when Giles found her body, and it still leaves me confused. How did Angel get in Giles' place to do all of that? He never had an invite until the 3rd season. Did he pay a human to break in and do all of that for him? It never really made any sense to me.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Mar 03 2008 04:36 am #6Guest
Guest
I dunno if all voice-overs suck. At the end of Becoming 1 I think Buffy is running to find Kendra's body in slow-mo and Whistler's voice-over is pretty cool, I think. But in Passion it kinda annoyed me. I think it was supposed to be giving us insight into Angelus and how he thinks and feels about everything, like getting to know the character without the soul instead of just thinking, bad boyfriend jerk-type bad guy, cuz he's way worse. Besides, the words themselves weren't totally creepy or evil or sadistic or delighting in causing pain or anything cool. They just tried to be deep and I guess follow Angelus's delusions of grandeur but fell flat.
Maybe we're supposed to be thinking this is the twisted kind of love Angel without a soul is capable of compared to with it and the voice-over shows how the vampire mindset worked.
Maybe we're supposed to be thinking this is the twisted kind of love Angel without a soul is capable of compared to with it and the voice-over shows how the vampire mindset worked.
How did Angel get in Giles' place to do all of that? He never had an invite until the 3rd season.
If you notice, Giles stops over at Buffy's house to get the spell book from Willow so that he can do the deinvite spell at his own house. So, even though we never saw Angel be invited in, I guess that's their way of telling us that it happened off screen, to allow Angelus to get in and do everything. At least they went to the trouble of explaining it, even if it's a bit of a retcon.
If you notice, Giles stops over at Buffy's house to get the spell book from Willow so that he can do the deinvite spell at his own house. So, even though we never saw Angel be invited in, I guess that's their way of telling us that it happened off screen, to allow Angelus to get in and do everything. At least they went to the trouble of explaining it, even if it's a bit of a retcon.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 03 2008 05:19 am #8TammyDevil666
Ah, I must have forgotten about that. It's been a while since I've seen the episode, I still hate that whole scene. The look on Giles' face when he finds her body is heartbreaking.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Mar 03 2008 07:04 am #9Scarlet Ibis
I personally liked the voice over. And although how Jenny was laid out in Giles' appartment was way bad, I liked the way he killed her, for some strange reason. It was with purpose, but at the same time, just to be rid of her. I suppose I like how he didn't go for the fangs. Then again, I liked how he killed the lady with the ciagrette when he first returned. Alright, so I'm kinda morbid.
Anyway, the thing that bugged me most was Willow almost having a complete breakdown at her death, and remembering that whole "glossing over my best friend Jessie who's just been killed" scene. I know the characters were new at that point, but goodness, why even bother saying they were best friends from childhood. I mean, are childhood best friends who you're still very much in contact with supposed to be something taken lightly?
And the whole point I saw to the "passion" theme was...Passion is also another word for suffering, and Angel's soul caused Angelus a whole ton of suffering. A century's worth, in fact. Jenny wants to give that back to him, so I could see why he'd be particularly pissed. But...he actually kills her quite dispassionately (with lack of passion, and also, she didn't suffer), but instead, gives an elaborate set up for her corpse, which makes Giles suffer all that much more at her demise, which makes his pain, his...passion, all that more extreme. Now the question becomes, why did he hate Giles so much? Buffy, I get. And in a construed sense, how horribly he treated Spike. But Giles seems like one of the least likely candidates for his wrath. Willow too (thinking about the fishes here). Why not Xander? Or um...yeah, that's about it.
Anyway, the thing that bugged me most was Willow almost having a complete breakdown at her death, and remembering that whole "glossing over my best friend Jessie who's just been killed" scene. I know the characters were new at that point, but goodness, why even bother saying they were best friends from childhood. I mean, are childhood best friends who you're still very much in contact with supposed to be something taken lightly?
And the whole point I saw to the "passion" theme was...Passion is also another word for suffering, and Angel's soul caused Angelus a whole ton of suffering. A century's worth, in fact. Jenny wants to give that back to him, so I could see why he'd be particularly pissed. But...he actually kills her quite dispassionately (with lack of passion, and also, she didn't suffer), but instead, gives an elaborate set up for her corpse, which makes Giles suffer all that much more at her demise, which makes his pain, his...passion, all that more extreme. Now the question becomes, why did he hate Giles so much? Buffy, I get. And in a construed sense, how horribly he treated Spike. But Giles seems like one of the least likely candidates for his wrath. Willow too (thinking about the fishes here). Why not Xander? Or um...yeah, that's about it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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Mar 03 2008 07:19 am #10TammyDevil666
I think it was the whole tormenting of her friends thing that he seemed to be so keen on. It wasn't so much about the kill yet, I guess he just had more of a reason to get rid of Jenny because she was the one that was going to give his soul back.
That's a good point, though. I think Willow was the closest to Jenny other than Giles, but I don't believe she would have reacted that badly over her death when she hardly shed any tears for Jesse, unless she did and it just wasn't shown.
That's a good point, though. I think Willow was the closest to Jenny other than Giles, but I don't believe she would have reacted that badly over her death when she hardly shed any tears for Jesse, unless she did and it just wasn't shown.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Mar 03 2008 11:19 am #11Guest
Guest
It's part of the whole "get to Buffy by making her friends suffer" thing. Also, Giles could have alienated Buffy because of this incident, and I think Angelus was hoping for that. It's a further dig at Buffy that she can't keep people safe and she's useless as a Slayer because she hasn't killed him, yet.
I like the voice over, as it's very Angelus, and I always liked this episode for the storytelling POV. It's very good writing, nuanced and chilling and we really see that Angelus is a master at the games he plays. And the emotional hit of the ep. is also huge. I like TV that makes me feel, and this ep was excellent for that.
CM
I like the voice over, as it's very Angelus, and I always liked this episode for the storytelling POV. It's very good writing, nuanced and chilling and we really see that Angelus is a master at the games he plays. And the emotional hit of the ep. is also huge. I like TV that makes me feel, and this ep was excellent for that.
CM
The theme from "Nausea" by Sartre is one of the foundations for Angelus and his set-up in this episode - the character from "Nausea" is an man totally disillusioned with life and it's meaning - he uses Art as a means of finding his way back to finding meaning and purpose to his life. That is one of the reason that Angel is shown reading Sartre. This has always been one of my favorite episodes - for the literature reference and all the inversions of love of the Buffy-Angel-Forever. In one of their scenes, not sure which episode, they actually show Buffy and Angel together in the cemetery with a headstone right next to them that reads "In Loving Memory" least that is what I recall that the headstone showed. Does anyone remember which episode that is in? It is when they first start showing them in heavy kissage -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 03 2008 06:47 pm #13TammyDevil666
Hmm, I'm not sure, but that could be "Bad Eggs." I remember a lot of making out in the cemetery during that episode.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Mar 04 2008 03:52 am #14Spikez_tart
What I didn't like was the cruel set up - I loved the cruel set up - it was so --- cruel. Besides there was opera.
Okay, is any one wondering how Angel managed to schlep Jenny's body down the street without anyone noticing? I'm sure the good folks of Sunnydale don't like to go out at night, but didn't anyone look out the window? Guess not. Maybe Angel used Spike's car. And, how is that the Council doesn't have a de-invite spell laying around handy? Surely that bit of lore would come in handy now and then.
I think Joss once said he had to have Angel snap Jenny's neck because he didn't think he'd be able to get the fans to accept Angel as Buffy's love interest again if they saw him brutally ripyou see the new Jenny's throat out with his teeth.
I also hated the "my people" stuff that Jenny and her uncle were always on about and how "their people" suffered more than anyone else. Excuse me, but Angel and his pals, Darla, Spike and Dru, were known as the Scourge of Europe. Scourging implies a little bit of excess on their part, more than wiping out a single village.
Loved the part where Giles goes Rambo and goes after Angel with a can of gasoline and a flaming torch. Also, the part where Spike won't let Dru help Angel out. Heh heh. That was great. All in all, it was a damn good episode.
Okay, is any one wondering how Angel managed to schlep Jenny's body down the street without anyone noticing? I'm sure the good folks of Sunnydale don't like to go out at night, but didn't anyone look out the window? Guess not. Maybe Angel used Spike's car. And, how is that the Council doesn't have a de-invite spell laying around handy? Surely that bit of lore would come in handy now and then.
I think Joss once said he had to have Angel snap Jenny's neck because he didn't think he'd be able to get the fans to accept Angel as Buffy's love interest again if they saw him brutally ripyou see the new Jenny's throat out with his teeth.
I also hated the "my people" stuff that Jenny and her uncle were always on about and how "their people" suffered more than anyone else. Excuse me, but Angel and his pals, Darla, Spike and Dru, were known as the Scourge of Europe. Scourging implies a little bit of excess on their part, more than wiping out a single village.
Loved the part where Giles goes Rambo and goes after Angel with a can of gasoline and a flaming torch. Also, the part where Spike won't let Dru help Angel out. Heh heh. That was great. All in all, it was a damn good episode.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 04 2008 03:57 am #15Scarlet Ibis
I think Joss once said he had to have Angel snap Jenny's neck because he didn't think he'd be able to get the fans to accept Angel as Buffy's love interest again if they saw him brutally ripyou see the new Jenny's throat out with his teeth.
He said that he couldn't have Angel kill Jenny in his human face, because he didn't think the fans could cope with him kissing Buffy later when he was good again.
Oh yeah, doesn't Spike say something like "Now, now. Wait until he tags you first," or something? Excellent, and I love that Dru actually listened to him, and didn't try to help out her precious Daddy. And wheeling Spike away when Buffy enters was also nice to see. She cared.
He said that he couldn't have Angel kill Jenny in his human face, because he didn't think the fans could cope with him kissing Buffy later when he was good again.
Oh yeah, doesn't Spike say something like "Now, now. Wait until he tags you first," or something? Excellent, and I love that Dru actually listened to him, and didn't try to help out her precious Daddy. And wheeling Spike away when Buffy enters was also nice to see. She cared.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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Okay, is any one wondering how Angel managed to schlep Jenny's body down the street without anyone noticing? I'm sure the good folks of Sunnydale don't like to go out at night, but didn't anyone look out the window? Guess not. Maybe Angel used Spike's car.
Maybe he used his own car? I don't think we ever see it during his time in Sunnydale, but he had a car before he got there (Becoming), and he had a car on his own show, so it stands to reason he might've had one during those three years in Sunnydale. Maybe he and Spike park in the same long-term garage, lol.
Maybe he used his own car? I don't think we ever see it during his time in Sunnydale, but he had a car before he got there (Becoming), and he had a car on his own show, so it stands to reason he might've had one during those three years in Sunnydale. Maybe he and Spike park in the same long-term garage, lol.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
There were a great many viewers that never saw Angel - Angelus as separate beings - and Jenny being killed by Angelus Face or Angel Face add up to the same vamp - This separation of Angel and Angelus, felt very much like the Catholic Confession, tell your sins to God's agent and receive the grace of God's love and your sins are forgiven.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Thanks for the info TammyDevil666 - I will check out "Bad Eggs" - considering that eggs are one of the primary resurrection and life cycle symbols it makes great visual connections with the resurrection of Angelus -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Can anyone direct me to comments from Joss Whedon, outside of the dvd special features, regarding why Angel vs Angelus are envisioned as separate beings? Has he explained why Angel was not to be taken as being part of Angelus? Many of the flashbacks show him as a miserable son and man outside the acceptable forms of his established society - he is the complete opposite of William and concerned with only his immediate pleasures. Even in their newly vamped phase, both return to their family and kill their parent - but Angel/Angelus from sheer vengeance and Spike/William for love and compassion for his mother. Considering such fundamental differences in character actions, why is Angel always presented as not being the same man? If the soul in Angel is responsible for this conversion of Good Man vs Bad Man, how does it work without being directly connected or able to access the essence of Angel/Angelus? Has anyone ever seen any commentary ever from either Joss Whedon or the writers, about how Angel having a soul replaces the man and vamp pre-soul?
From the Quotes Link Buffy-Angel:
SMG:
"I have felt a love as strong as Angel. On Buffy I felt almost everything she's experienced before. If you haven't loved someone like that I don't know how you could portray it."
"Last year, with Angel and the heartbreak, I would go home and cry. My body couldn't work properly. I don?take the demons home with me, but I do take Buffy's pain. The vampires I'm immune to, but not the emotion. When we filmed the episode where Angel breaks up with her, I cried for 25 minutes. I thought I was having a breakdown. They had to shut down the set. When they say rip your heart out, that's really what unfulfilled love does."
"I believe that Angel is her true love, and I believe she will never love anyone the way that she loves Angel. Will she fall in love again? Ya know, in her mind she thought she had fallen in love with Riley, even though it wasn't what it was supposed to be, but nothing will ever be Angel. And um, I'm hoping, at some point, they find their way back to each other. We'll have the Buffy Angel hour, we'll have two-hour episodes every week and I'll never go home at night, we'll go on forever."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
After reading all these quotes I am really wondering if I was watching the same show - reading all these comments from the SMG, while it really helps to understand some of her interpretation of Buffy and the working process, and it explains why she seems to have so much for passion with the Angel-Buffy arc; can this really be how she saw the complexity of the relationship? There was so much destructive psychological force behind all the love and passion, did she just ignore that component of their love story? I find many of her comments, and the comments from some of the writers and JM confusing. Do they believe that their viewers were not interested or able to process all they layers that the series presented and that the Buffy-Angel relationship encompassed.
How are the viewers to interpret the final erotic-sacrifice-bite scene and Buffy ending up almost being killed by Angel in Graduation? How are the viewers to understand "Passion" and all the Angelus arc in light of SMG's comments and those by the writers? Was I dreaming all through the Angelus arc?
I understand the Star Crossed Lovers and the Romeo and Juliet references but these connections are not applicable to Buffy-Angel. Romeo and Juliet are all about hatred and tribal warfare social factors that have tragic consequences in the lives of Romeo and Juliet. Star Crossed lovers does not work for me either, Romona and Alejandro, again lovers that were kept apart by social hatreds - How in the hell does this apply to Buffy and Angel Lovers Arc and their love should be forever. Angel is a false fabrication, his humanity via his en-soulment is presented as a curse and punishment for crimes against humanity - Did I miss the an episode where Angel becomes a Real Boy?
Angel as a man seeking redemption is a great story - Angel as a man/vamp that sees Buffy as a redemptive source and a means to reconnect with his life and his humanity, also a great story. Angel that has a sexual connection and all the layers that are brought into the connection, by the very writers that give us back this Buffy-Angel-True Love-Forever Commentary, just does not make any sense to me. They wrote Angelus and they should acknowledge that creation and the great complexity and psychological implications to the Angel/Angelus character and to how that connects with their Buffy-Angel-Lovers arc. Did they think that the viewers were not going to make any connections between all symbolism. metaphors, and layers of Angel-Angelus and a young woman being totally consumed by her attraction and involvement.
We understand that Buffy is going through a rite of passage and that the Acathla cycle was a trial for Buffy becoming The Slayer but this layer of the Buffy story does not give automatic credence to the Buffy-Angel-True Love. This is not star crossed lovers material, this is Angelus being cursed again; made into the artificial being once again.
I think that the actors and the writers gave way too much importance to the Buffy-Angel-True Love, judging from the comments. Were the viewers really that invested in this relationship? I frankly found myself being bored with Buffy in I Love You So Much mode by the time Angelus makes his appearance. Angelus, Spike and Dru, for me, was the point where the series really becomes extraordinary and compelling story telling.
I just don't understand where all the Buffy and Angel are forever comes from - You can't just disregard Angelus, just like we can't disregard Spike pre-chip; they are connected and that connection has to be considered as part of the entire series. What Buffy-Angel-Forever is asking of me, is that I put Angelus, all the psychology and complexity of his part in the series, all the layers of Buffy and Angel as lovers, all the destructive nature of that the relationship brought to Buffy and her Scoobies. Death, Murder, Mayhem and Broken Young Woman, how does that equate into Buffy-Angel-True Love-Forever. I'm seeing a lot more of Anna Karenina than Romeo and Juliet and shame on the writers for not paying tribute to their entire series - Maybe SMG really believes in that Angel-Buffy-True Love, but I find it very peculiar, knowing that she is a extremely good actress and very intelligent, I can't see how all the wonderful and rich complexities that are vital to that relationship are to be set aside.
Frankly, I am almost sorry that I read all this commentary - I say almost because it's always better to have information, but I find them very confusing. Were these comments of Buffy-Angel True Love made from the perspective of Actors and Writers doing a PR spin - especially the comments made while the works were still be televised?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 04 2008 11:20 pm #20Indigo Stevens
People see things differently, be it art or television shows, etc. When you introduce different emotional elements and variegated plots to tell a story, it makes it kind of ambiguous and leaves the viewer to arrive at his/her own conclusion. Unless it follows a strict line with direct dialogue and simple terminology, you can pretty much rest assured that viewers will see different aspects that others might not see or agree with. Yeah, the whole Buffy/Angel Fairytale Love thing is a well known aspect of the BtVS/AtS universe. True Love forever etc., etc., etc., but that doesn't mean the only love forever. The writers and the actors have the best perspective--after all, they were the ones telling the story. Us, as viewers are motivated by our own wants and desires--you don't find Angel that attractive or think him to be boring, you're not going to get vested into the relationship he has with Buffy or buy into any of the storyline and find it believable.
I know shippers that just *hate* Riley--for reasons that I do not understand. Riley was good for Buffy. He loved her with all of his heart and wanted to give her everything but he eventually realized that Buffy was never going to feel the same way about him that he felt fr her. Hence his turning to the vamp ho's and the eventual giving of the ultimatum. He was an actual good guy and to some that made him boring and white bread and bland.
I, for one, hate Kennedy. I think she is a spoiled, selfish, pushy bitch--at the same time, there are others out there that support the whole Kennedy/Willow thing. I love Willow & Tara, moreover I love Willow and Oz and as much as I believe that Tara was the best thing that ever happened to Willow, I believe that Oz is the one Willow should spend the rest of her life with (my version of true love forever). I also believe that Anya was the best thing that ever happened to Xander and vice versa but that in the end, it should be Anya and Giles as they balance each other.
Ok, so a bit off topic, so back to the ep., Passion. As you can tell by my sig quote, I loved that episode. Passion is, in my humble opinion, one of the best episodes in the whole of the BtVS/AtS series. It did exactly as it was supposed to do--show us the darker side of passion, otherwise known as obsession, which we all know, never ends well. From passion is where love spouts from, just as well as grief, because without love, grief would not exist.
The storyline follows true to the quote that Angelus narrates throughout the episode. He killed Jenny and posed her the way he did, in Giles' apartment, as another mind game. Simply killing her and leaving her where she fell would not have had the same impact. Someone else could have happened upon the body before Giles or Buffy and where would the satisfaction have been in that? He sets the scene--roses, romantic opera, candlelight, to build Giles' up; to increase his security and his happiness because the crash into despair and horror would be that much harder; that much more painful and who demoralize than the one guy trying to keep Buffy on an even keel as well as striking yet another hurtful painful blow at the girl herself. Plus Giles is the one telling Buffy to be level-headed--not to give into her passions but yet he goes after Angel with single-minded determination of making him suffer before killing him in revenge of Jenny.
As for getting Jenny's body down the street without notice--Angel had a car. Plus there was also the sewers and lets not forget that Sunnydale, as a whole, tends to turn a blind eye to the things that go bump in the night.
Some quotes from the episode: Giles: Yes. (to Buffy) Uh, uh, look, it's-it's classic battle strategy to throw one's opponent off his game. He-he-he's just trying to provoke you. Uh, to taunt you, to, to goad you into, uh, some mishap of some sort. Giles: I know how hard this is for you. All right, I don't. But as the Slayer, you don't have the luxury of being a slave to your, your passions. You mustn't let Angel get to you. No matter how provocative his behavior may become.
I know shippers that just *hate* Riley--for reasons that I do not understand. Riley was good for Buffy. He loved her with all of his heart and wanted to give her everything but he eventually realized that Buffy was never going to feel the same way about him that he felt fr her. Hence his turning to the vamp ho's and the eventual giving of the ultimatum. He was an actual good guy and to some that made him boring and white bread and bland.
I, for one, hate Kennedy. I think she is a spoiled, selfish, pushy bitch--at the same time, there are others out there that support the whole Kennedy/Willow thing. I love Willow & Tara, moreover I love Willow and Oz and as much as I believe that Tara was the best thing that ever happened to Willow, I believe that Oz is the one Willow should spend the rest of her life with (my version of true love forever). I also believe that Anya was the best thing that ever happened to Xander and vice versa but that in the end, it should be Anya and Giles as they balance each other.
Ok, so a bit off topic, so back to the ep., Passion. As you can tell by my sig quote, I loved that episode. Passion is, in my humble opinion, one of the best episodes in the whole of the BtVS/AtS series. It did exactly as it was supposed to do--show us the darker side of passion, otherwise known as obsession, which we all know, never ends well. From passion is where love spouts from, just as well as grief, because without love, grief would not exist.
The storyline follows true to the quote that Angelus narrates throughout the episode. He killed Jenny and posed her the way he did, in Giles' apartment, as another mind game. Simply killing her and leaving her where she fell would not have had the same impact. Someone else could have happened upon the body before Giles or Buffy and where would the satisfaction have been in that? He sets the scene--roses, romantic opera, candlelight, to build Giles' up; to increase his security and his happiness because the crash into despair and horror would be that much harder; that much more painful and who demoralize than the one guy trying to keep Buffy on an even keel as well as striking yet another hurtful painful blow at the girl herself. Plus Giles is the one telling Buffy to be level-headed--not to give into her passions but yet he goes after Angel with single-minded determination of making him suffer before killing him in revenge of Jenny.
As for getting Jenny's body down the street without notice--Angel had a car. Plus there was also the sewers and lets not forget that Sunnydale, as a whole, tends to turn a blind eye to the things that go bump in the night.
Some quotes from the episode: Giles: Yes. (to Buffy) Uh, uh, look, it's-it's classic battle strategy to throw one's opponent off his game. He-he-he's just trying to provoke you. Uh, to taunt you, to, to goad you into, uh, some mishap of some sort. Giles: I know how hard this is for you. All right, I don't. But as the Slayer, you don't have the luxury of being a slave to your, your passions. You mustn't let Angel get to you. No matter how provocative his behavior may become.
Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead ~Angelus, BtVS Season 2, Passion episode
Those quotes also come from the woman that has recently stated she thinks Bander is where Joss was planning to go all along, which kind of puts a damper on the whole forever ideal. And the cast and crew change their minds on things all the time. Many times JM said Spike didn't deserve Buffy, but in a Q & A a few months ago his new advice to Spike was to get over Buffy and that he deserved better.
But I also don't get how the cast and crew couldn't see the more disturbing elements of the relationship. Buffy was a very young girl, and Angel was a two hundred year old vampire. Yes, Spike was attracted to her at that age as well, but unlike Angel he didn't do anything about it. Part of it was Drusilla probably, but when Spike and Buffy were together she was at a more mature age. And I don't get how SMG can say at twenty it's just good sex, but at seventeen it's forever love. That makes no sense at all, because at seventeen you are less mature. I don't believe that you can find a forever love when your barely more than a child.
And you can love someone forever, but not be in love with them anymore, and if you look at it on screen, Angel and Buffy were no longer in love. Even if Buffy didn't love Spike, she had already grown and changed and they weren't the same people who fell in love years before.
But I also don't get how the cast and crew couldn't see the more disturbing elements of the relationship. Buffy was a very young girl, and Angel was a two hundred year old vampire. Yes, Spike was attracted to her at that age as well, but unlike Angel he didn't do anything about it. Part of it was Drusilla probably, but when Spike and Buffy were together she was at a more mature age. And I don't get how SMG can say at twenty it's just good sex, but at seventeen it's forever love. That makes no sense at all, because at seventeen you are less mature. I don't believe that you can find a forever love when your barely more than a child.
And you can love someone forever, but not be in love with them anymore, and if you look at it on screen, Angel and Buffy were no longer in love. Even if Buffy didn't love Spike, she had already grown and changed and they weren't the same people who fell in love years before.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
The writers and the actors have the best perspective--after all, they were the ones telling the story. Us, as viewers are motivated by our own wants and desires--you don't find Angel that attractive or think him to be boring, you're not going to get vested into the relationship he has with Buffy or buy into any of the storyline and find it believable.
Excellent Point - I just spent this afternoon watching the Special Features - just to try and get a better perspective and understanding of some of the quotes I read from the linked sites. Particularly the features from Angel Season 5 I found most helpful and interesting - I loved Angel the Series and I think that the primary change of how my personal understanding and acceptance of his character as a hero was his being taken out of the Buffy-Angel-Lover circumstance. He had so much more depth in his own series, at least to me he did. Being removed from the tight boxed in situation of his relationship in Sunnydale helped me to let go of my deep discomfort I always felt with the Buffy-Angel relationship - I got to move on with his move to LA as well.
I think that as an older woman viewer it became difficult to not project my own morals onto that relationship - as a woman that would have been the same age as Joyce, it was extremely difficult to not see that entire story arc thing from the perspective of a mother - a parent whose child could have been involved in a similar situation. The great production and creative work from all the staff and actors made the show so intense and while set in a fantasy world, it was always about real world people. This "'real world people and real world reflection" is what made me love all these character, but also made it impossible for me to accept Buffy-Angel-True Love.
Is the bottom line question of interpretation for Buffy-Angel-True Love that viewers are not to bring in their real world moral questions into that relationship arc? Because if all these people involved in the actual production of this series seem to think that Buffy-Angel-True Love is the right ending position then I am left with all these questions that apparently seem to have no relevance. Apparently it does not matter that Buffy almost killed someone in the name of True Love -
And on that note of confusion, guess I will go spend my next hours seeing how the struggling Democratic presidential nominee candidate is going to survive this nights elections -
Excellent Point - I just spent this afternoon watching the Special Features - just to try and get a better perspective and understanding of some of the quotes I read from the linked sites. Particularly the features from Angel Season 5 I found most helpful and interesting - I loved Angel the Series and I think that the primary change of how my personal understanding and acceptance of his character as a hero was his being taken out of the Buffy-Angel-Lover circumstance. He had so much more depth in his own series, at least to me he did. Being removed from the tight boxed in situation of his relationship in Sunnydale helped me to let go of my deep discomfort I always felt with the Buffy-Angel relationship - I got to move on with his move to LA as well.
I think that as an older woman viewer it became difficult to not project my own morals onto that relationship - as a woman that would have been the same age as Joyce, it was extremely difficult to not see that entire story arc thing from the perspective of a mother - a parent whose child could have been involved in a similar situation. The great production and creative work from all the staff and actors made the show so intense and while set in a fantasy world, it was always about real world people. This "'real world people and real world reflection" is what made me love all these character, but also made it impossible for me to accept Buffy-Angel-True Love.
Is the bottom line question of interpretation for Buffy-Angel-True Love that viewers are not to bring in their real world moral questions into that relationship arc? Because if all these people involved in the actual production of this series seem to think that Buffy-Angel-True Love is the right ending position then I am left with all these questions that apparently seem to have no relevance. Apparently it does not matter that Buffy almost killed someone in the name of True Love -
And on that note of confusion, guess I will go spend my next hours seeing how the struggling Democratic presidential nominee candidate is going to survive this nights elections -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2008 02:29 am #23Indigo Stevens
I loved Angel the Series and I think that the primary change of how my personal understanding and acceptance of his character as a hero was his being taken out of the Buffy-Angel-Lover circumstance. He had so much more depth in his own series, at least to me he did. Being removed from the tight boxed in situation of his relationship in Sunnydale helped me to let go of my deep discomfort I always felt with the Buffy-Angel relationship - I got to move on with his move to LA as well.
I so agree with this--especially the first part about how he had so much more depth in his own series. We got to see sides of him there that we didn't get to see on Buffy because he was confined in this tight little box of a one dimensional, broody, tortured soul and they needed that to do the spin off. Once AtS got established, we got to see more and get a better understanding of who he was and saw that he really was trying his best at doing the right thing all of the time, even when the right thing wasn't always so clear.
And Cil, Obama will survive.
I so agree with this--especially the first part about how he had so much more depth in his own series. We got to see sides of him there that we didn't get to see on Buffy because he was confined in this tight little box of a one dimensional, broody, tortured soul and they needed that to do the spin off. Once AtS got established, we got to see more and get a better understanding of who he was and saw that he really was trying his best at doing the right thing all of the time, even when the right thing wasn't always so clear.
And Cil, Obama will survive.
Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead ~Angelus, BtVS Season 2, Passion episode
Mar 05 2008 02:59 am #24Spikez_tart
Riley was good for Buffy. He loved her with all of his heart - I don't think he did love her with all his heart. He was always holding back - it was always about him - is Buffy stronger, faster, better at killing beasties than me? He loves her, yes, and I don't think it was just an "I've got a Hot Girlfriend" deal, but it's not unconditional. Haven't made up my mind about whether Buffy loves Riley unconditionally. She doesn't ever tell him so and she isn't always running out to save him all the time like she does for Spike and occasionally for Angel. One time she gets geared up to save Riley (while wearing her Yummy Sushi pajamas) he casually strolls in - doesn't need any saving. That scene is played for comic relief - Riley doesn't need her for anything?
Kennedy must DIE!
Spike was attracted to her at that age as well, but unlike Angel he didn't do anything about it. LOL - nope Spike just tries to kill her.
Kennedy must DIE!
Spike was attracted to her at that age as well, but unlike Angel he didn't do anything about it. LOL - nope Spike just tries to kill her.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 05 2008 04:09 am #25Indigo Stevens
Nah, I don't think Riley never held back. Look at what he gave up for her--everything he was taught and what he thought he knew about Demons; the Initiative (granted evil gov corp, but he had no clue there until close to the end)... sure he was insecure--what guy wouldn't be when his girlfriend can kick his ass up and down the block and back again without breaking a sweat? What conditions do you feel that Riley placed on Buffy? As for Buffy loving him unconditionally? Nopers. Xander summed up best in his speech to her towards the end of the Into the Woods ep.,
XANDER: See, what I think, you got burned with Angel, then Riley shows up.
BUFFY: I know the story, Xander.
XANDER: But you miss the point. You shut down, Buffy. And you've been treating Riley like the rebound guy. When he's the one that comes along once in a lifetime. (Buffy looks dismayed) He's never held back with you. He's risked everything. And you're about to let him fly because you don't like ultimatums?
Kennedy must DIE!
Agree WHOOOOOOOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!
Speaking of which, I need to find some fics! recs! where Kennedy gets beat up a lot and/or killed. If anyone wants to point some out to be, it'd be appreciated though not dire at the mo cause I'm busier than a one-legged man at a butt kickin contest until the beginning of next week.
XANDER: See, what I think, you got burned with Angel, then Riley shows up.
BUFFY: I know the story, Xander.
XANDER: But you miss the point. You shut down, Buffy. And you've been treating Riley like the rebound guy. When he's the one that comes along once in a lifetime. (Buffy looks dismayed) He's never held back with you. He's risked everything. And you're about to let him fly because you don't like ultimatums?
Kennedy must DIE!
Agree WHOOOOOOOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!
Speaking of which, I need to find some fics! recs! where Kennedy gets beat up a lot and/or killed. If anyone wants to point some out to be, it'd be appreciated though not dire at the mo cause I'm busier than a one-legged man at a butt kickin contest until the beginning of next week.
Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead ~Angelus, BtVS Season 2, Passion episode
Plus Giles is the one telling Buffy to be level-headed--not to give into her passions but yet he goes after Angel with single-minded determination of making him suffer before killing him in revenge of Jenny.
How grotesque is it that while Buffy and Willow get works on paper, it is Giles and Jenny Calendar that get turned into Living Art. Angel's scene with Joyce was also really creepy, especially how Angel/Angelus treats it as parody of young love or obsessive love. Your point of putting Giles off the position of strength is important - Angelus, is breaking down Buffy but also attacking and trying to eliminate her parental support; much like his killing of his own parents and family.
I think that I will move on from all my Buffy-Angel, Spike-Buffy, Buffy-Riley confusion and just adopt a new ship- Bandru. At least Andrew has only killed one person, he will not introduce great complexity, and he will supply plenty of fantasy flavored romance into Buffy's love life. Andrew and Buffy together, and they can invite Spike to visit occasionally as Andrew likes Spike so very much - Unless Angel finally gets his Shanshu prize, unfortunately he will never be able to receive an invite.
How grotesque is it that while Buffy and Willow get works on paper, it is Giles and Jenny Calendar that get turned into Living Art. Angel's scene with Joyce was also really creepy, especially how Angel/Angelus treats it as parody of young love or obsessive love. Your point of putting Giles off the position of strength is important - Angelus, is breaking down Buffy but also attacking and trying to eliminate her parental support; much like his killing of his own parents and family.
I think that I will move on from all my Buffy-Angel, Spike-Buffy, Buffy-Riley confusion and just adopt a new ship- Bandru. At least Andrew has only killed one person, he will not introduce great complexity, and he will supply plenty of fantasy flavored romance into Buffy's love life. Andrew and Buffy together, and they can invite Spike to visit occasionally as Andrew likes Spike so very much - Unless Angel finally gets his Shanshu prize, unfortunately he will never be able to receive an invite.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Bandru
For a minute there, I thought you were suggesting a threesome of Buffy, Xander, and Dru....
For a minute there, I thought you were suggesting a threesome of Buffy, Xander, and Dru....
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 06 2008 02:49 am #28Spikez_tart
Andrew and Buffy OMG is that disgusting. It's worse than Spawn.
Indigo- If Riley is so Mr. Once In a Lifetime - how is it that he's down at the local whorehouse getting vampsucked? And, he dusted poor little Sandy Vamp, who was just trying to get a meal without killing anybody. He dusts her to keep his nasty little secret. If he loved Buffy so unconditionally, how is it that he traipses off into the jungle and finds a new love of his life and gets married within 6 months? Never offered to slip that ring on Buffy's finger, now did he? Grrr to Riley. You're right - Buffy is not there either. And Xander has his gall giving Buffy that big phony speech.But
Kennedy must die - I have a nice chapter where Willow kills Kennedy with a monster rattle snake, unforturnately the rest of the story ubersucks.
Indigo- If Riley is so Mr. Once In a Lifetime - how is it that he's down at the local whorehouse getting vampsucked? And, he dusted poor little Sandy Vamp, who was just trying to get a meal without killing anybody. He dusts her to keep his nasty little secret. If he loved Buffy so unconditionally, how is it that he traipses off into the jungle and finds a new love of his life and gets married within 6 months? Never offered to slip that ring on Buffy's finger, now did he?
Grrr to Riley. You're right - Buffy is not there either. And Xander has his gall giving Buffy that big phony speech.But Kennedy must die - I have a nice chapter where Willow kills Kennedy with a monster rattle snake, unforturnately the rest of the story ubersucks.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 06 2008 03:18 am #29Indigo Stevens
If Riley is so Mr. Once In a Lifetime - how is it that he's down at the local whorehouse getting vampsucked? And, he dusted poor little Sandy Vamp, who was just trying to get a meal without killing anybody. He dusts her to keep his nasty little secret. If he loved Buffy so unconditionally, how is it that he traipses off into the jungle and finds a new love of his life and gets married within 6 months?
He was getting vampsucked cause he wasn't getting what he needed from Buffy, just as he told her when they had their confrontation. For a normal girl, yes Riley is that Once in a Lifetime kind of guy but we all know Spike summed it up best--Buffy needs a little monster in her man and Riley was too white bread. I don't think Riley dusted Sandy to keep his secret. Its not like she was gonna run out and tell anyone. I think Riley did it because he was more disgusted with himself and out of frustration for feeling he needed to find what was missing with him and Buffy elsewhere.
As for the wedding to Sam (she is another one I don't like by the way. Ionno. Something about her just screams insincerity and backstabyness), supposedly it took Riley a year to get over Buffy but yet he had only been gone for a year, met Sam a month or so later and then find out they had been married for almost 4 months. The writers really knackered things up with that ep because the time line was completely screwed up.
Bandru
Gah! O.o Buffy would kill Andrew within a week. Besides, Andrew is way too swishy to be hetero. Trying to picture Andrew having sex with a girl....
...
...hell just trying to picture Andrew having any kind of sex at all, even with himself, just sends me into a fit of the giggles.
He was getting vampsucked cause he wasn't getting what he needed from Buffy, just as he told her when they had their confrontation. For a normal girl, yes Riley is that Once in a Lifetime kind of guy but we all know Spike summed it up best--Buffy needs a little monster in her man and Riley was too white bread. I don't think Riley dusted Sandy to keep his secret. Its not like she was gonna run out and tell anyone. I think Riley did it because he was more disgusted with himself and out of frustration for feeling he needed to find what was missing with him and Buffy elsewhere.
As for the wedding to Sam (she is another one I don't like by the way. Ionno. Something about her just screams insincerity and backstabyness), supposedly it took Riley a year to get over Buffy but yet he had only been gone for a year, met Sam a month or so later and then find out they had been married for almost 4 months. The writers really knackered things up with that ep because the time line was completely screwed up.
Bandru
Gah! O.o Buffy would kill Andrew within a week. Besides, Andrew is way too swishy to be hetero. Trying to picture Andrew having sex with a girl....
...
...hell just trying to picture Andrew having any kind of sex at all, even with himself, just sends me into a fit of the giggles.
Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead ~Angelus, BtVS Season 2, Passion episode
Mar 06 2008 03:55 am #30Spikez_tart
Sam (she is another one I don't like by the way - She's a totally Smug Bitch. I wanted to smack her. Riley deserves her.
Okay - this scene really is disturbing to me, being Jewish, (and maybe Nmcil will comment since she's up on the Christian motifs in BTVS) Buffy nails a cross on Jewish Willow's wall - ostensibly to keep Angel out, but really something more I think? Buffy spreading the Gospel?
WILLOW: I'm gonna have a hard time explaining this to my dad.
BUFFY: You really think it'll bother him?
WILLOW: Ira Rosenberg's only daughter nailing crucifixes to her bedroom wall?
Okay - this scene really is disturbing to me, being Jewish, (and maybe Nmcil will comment since she's up on the Christian motifs in BTVS) Buffy nails a cross on Jewish Willow's wall - ostensibly to keep Angel out, but really something more I think? Buffy spreading the Gospel?
WILLOW: I'm gonna have a hard time explaining this to my dad.
BUFFY: You really think it'll bother him?
WILLOW: Ira Rosenberg's only daughter nailing crucifixes to her bedroom wall?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
with the scene of Willow and Buffy nailing the cross on the wall - there is not any significance other than guardian object against vampires - however, it does not make much sense since everything that has ever been shown on the series indicates that the cross is used in close contact with the vampire, mostly shown as an immediate barrier - what protection a cross nailed to the wall would be is dubious - Angel is clearly shown in a church confessional so just having a cross in the location would not be particularly effective. You have to wonder of the logic used sometimes.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2008 03:34 am #32Spikez_tart
It isn't logical. I also thought about the fish business - a sort of perverted loaves and fishes thing? After Willow finds the fish and runs over to Buffy's house the two of them sit around with big strings of garlic (Buffy does the same thing when she's trying to avoid Spike after having sex with him.) So, the cross doesn't make sense for keeping vampires out. Spike walks into Robin Wood's garage full of crosses and it doesn't hurt him as long as he doesn't get particularly close. Angel goes into churches on a number of occasions. So, I'm thinking Buffy, frequently a messiah-type and/or Jesus figure, is spreading the gospel (although in Joss Whedon's case maybe the gospel of nihilism or something).
There's the title/theme of the show, Passion. Maybe it's meant to refer to religious passion or Jesus's passion. I'm on slippery Christian ground here, but you could take the voiceover in more than one way, as here:
Angelus: (narrates) Without passion, we'd be truly dead.
I also have a theory about the S7 use of some of the symbols from the Stations of the Cross, but I'll hold back. Reluctantly.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I don't think "Passion" is trying for hidden Judeo/Christian symbolism - if anything I see it more of a play off Adam and Eve and the fall of man through temptation - Angel's fall back into loss of grace through his fall to sexual passions - the ectasy of Love and Sexual Passions and the inversion of purity and innocence. I probably am one of the few people who view this consumation of Love and Sexual desire as a test of Angel, which, imo, he fails. While Angel's curse is the vehicle, from my perspective, Buffy acts both as a test of Angel and Buffy plays both the role of guide and model for his resurrection of humanity, but in a twist, also is the temptress. It's a very interesting and complex relationship and use of metaphor - both characters switch roles as "guides" but they also take on the roles of "object of trials" -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
He was getting vampsucked cause he wasn't getting what he needed from Buffy, just as he told her when they had their confrontation.
My problem with that is that Riley's actions are very passive-aggressive (rather than TELL Buffy what he needs, or ask her what she needs from him, he goes behind her back like this), which is something that he'd do in any relationship. It just might be regular cheating rather than vampires. So, I don't think he's a "once in a lifetime" guy for a normal girl in that sense.
supposedly it took Riley a year to get over Buffy but yet he had only been gone for a year, met Sam a month or so later and then find out they had been married for almost 4 months.
That's not necessarily a screw-up. Just because you marry someone else doesn't mean you're "over" an ex. People get involved in relationships all the time before they're over a previous one.
Buffy spreading the Gospel?
Are you kidding me? No way. The cross is entirely there to set up the joke you quoted. It wouldn't be the first time they've eschewed logic or continuity to make a joke.
My problem with that is that Riley's actions are very passive-aggressive (rather than TELL Buffy what he needs, or ask her what she needs from him, he goes behind her back like this), which is something that he'd do in any relationship. It just might be regular cheating rather than vampires. So, I don't think he's a "once in a lifetime" guy for a normal girl in that sense.
supposedly it took Riley a year to get over Buffy but yet he had only been gone for a year, met Sam a month or so later and then find out they had been married for almost 4 months.
That's not necessarily a screw-up. Just because you marry someone else doesn't mean you're "over" an ex. People get involved in relationships all the time before they're over a previous one.
Buffy spreading the Gospel?
Are you kidding me? No way. The cross is entirely there to set up the joke you quoted. It wouldn't be the first time they've eschewed logic or continuity to make a joke.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I should like to see your theories on Stations of the Cross - while iconic Judeo/Christian symbolism is used throughtout the series, I see it as using symbols that the majority of viewers would relate to - not being used to make statements about religious ideas. Everyone can identify with the metaphor of Spike draping himself on a cross - or his being immersed in a fountain - same with his soul being placed back into him at the body's heart location - not so easily understood by our culture would be the beetles in the cave that are equally important as a symbol of Spike creating his own resurrection - or the golden larva that enters his eye and head as another symbol of resurrection and transformation -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
:-P
:love
:wah:
:(
:drugs:
:um:
:getwriting:
:tsk:
:buhbye:
:coffeelove:
:eatme:
:smooch:
:kiss:
:heartfic:
:shrug:
:sigh:
:drink:
:goodevil:
:what:
:evil:
:hyper:
:lol:
:reading:
:readporn:
:up:
:hand:
:down:
:hurl:
:wave:
:vampire:
:moon:
:D
:boohoo:
:tongue:
:shake:
:lurk:
:happy:
:announce:
:stupid:
:grr:
:)
:wazzup:
:right:
:insane:
:crap:
:poke:
:stalker:
:taped:
:grrarg:
:throughpc:
:fic:
:halo:
:help:
:clap:
:eyebrows:
:bday:
:dance:
:needsmut:
:lash:
:neener:
:bow:
:wall:
:spank:
:butthead:
:hair:
:suck:
:get:
:spuffy:
:soon:
:vamps:
;-)
;)
:-(
:P
:O
:-O
:-D
:blush:
:-)
:cheer:
:sleep:
:pigsfly: