BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Out of My Mind Episode Discussion
Buffy doesn't want Riley or Spike patrolling with her. Why? Is she more comfortable doing it alone? Both of them are strong and willing to help, way more than Xander and Willow back in high school, so what's the problem? Her "alone" patrols started from S5, from the season Buffy made an interest in learning more about her slayer essence. I remember someone commenting on why we don't see Xander and Willow patrolling with Buffy like in high school days, maybe it's Buffy who doesn't want them to tag along.
I love Buffy and Willow arguing about lectures. Willow's dream finally came true. Nice to see Buffy work hard, but breaks my heart because I know she won't finish college 
This is one of the very few times where I see Giles impressed with something Xander did. Oh, and nice to see Tara around the Scoobies without Willow's presence, hope it was Willow's talk in Real Me about Tara being part of the Scooby circle.
LOL, what's gotten into Riley? I guess the comment Spike made the earlier night about Buffy not needing Riley and Buffy's less enthusiastic features when she saw him at patrol are what gotten into him.
Sweet Buffy/Giles moment, I hate you, S7! And Xander's enthusiasm about making the dummy is adorable. Buffy is so lucky to have them in her life.
Who says that Buffy doesn't understand geek references?
Spike's biggest flaw, adorable one though, is his obsession with soaps. Doesn't he watch anything else? *hugs him*
Spike and Harmony have the most disturbing relationship ever. And I love it. Reminds me that we're not dealing with humans here, these are vampires, everything about them is disturbing. What's the deal with Harmony coughing when she took a drag?
The Buffy/Riley sex scene… Riley really wants to show her that he could keep up with her.
I really love the scene where Willow lies on Buffy's bed with Dawn sitting on the floor and Buffy pacing around. It makes me think that Willow isn't just Buffy's best friend, she's also like a sister. Some wondered how Buffy, Xander and Willow stuck together all these years when most high school friends fall apart after high school, but they're not just friends, they're family. I love that.
Riley clearly wants to cut all his ties with the government, except still living in his old room, it's sad to see how his friendship with Graham turned out. Well, the Scoobies are a better and more entertaining company.
Aw, Xander trying to tell Buffy how Riley feels about how Buffy feels about Riley, but Buffy doesn't get it. She's too stressed to. And what's even funnier is that Anya mistook it for Xander talking about himself. 
You know, I really feel bad for Spike. From being the top to sinking so low, he really wants some respect for the old times sake, but all the Scoobies –even Willow- lost it now that he can't hurt them in the "I'm gonna snap your necks now" sort of way. I hated that Buffy didn't knock on his door when she came asking for his help and when she tore the money in half. Then again, she is stressed out, and she got no time, she must bring Riley to the doctor ASAP. She's not in the mood for Spike's stalling.
You know, I do think that Graham cares about Riley. 
How many Slash fics I saw with these two, this episode must have started them 
Okay, this episode shows me how naïve the Scoobies are. Spike isn't helpless and he's still evil and they keep him loose without thinking. They're really idiots! Didn't they learn from the Adam episode? And even after he tries to get rid of the chip here, they still let him go. Maybe because he's been helping them –for money of course- that they think they need him for information or muscle. Still, I won't keep him wandering about in Sunnydale like they did, knowing what he's capable of doing.
The Buffy/Riley conversation shows me that he really wants to be strong for her. Not for him. He's doing this to be equal with her because he thinks that's what she wants. And I believe that Buffy really doesn't care about that. Her interests in love and choices in men are not that predictable. I love this conversation. Buffy and Riley opened up to each other and, look, they're still together and they're doing the right thing. Which brings me to the reason of their break up: lack of communication. I can't wait for the next episodes to see how it's gonna go wrong, because now, they're tight again.
I love how Spike thinks, killing the doctor after he pulled out the chip is the smart solution. First, he'll know that the chip stopped working for sure. Second, he'll kill the only person who could put it back.
Stupid Graham putting thoughts in Riley's head. I guess this is where it all starts. Riley is like Anya now. No purpose. Just the lover/partner. Anya will find her thing next episode when Giles hires her and Riley will find his thing later when he rejoins the government. Guess love isn't really enough for everyone.
I think the episode contains lots of hints to Spuffy before the Spike dream. Buffy commenting that she's date Spike if all she cares about were super strength and not the person is one of them. 
Sep 12 2008 06:13 pm #2TammyDevil666
Not much to say about this episode that you didn't already cover. I just wanna say that the part I really love is when Buffy slaps Spike in the face after he taunts her about Riley. She could have just punched him in the nose like she usually does, but she chooses to just slap him, which to me is something a girlfriend would do. Also, I really didn't care much for Spike at this point, so I might have enjoyed that part a little too much.
I didn't start to like him until a little later on in the season, the idea of Spuffy never even appealed to me then. So, I can't say I was very pleased by the dream at the end, just really confused. I think I was relieved that it wasn't real. I actually thought it was at first, but when Buffy started to kiss him back, that's when I knew it couldn't be real.
For some reason, I thought that Spike would kiss her, but I knew she wasn't likely to kiss him back. Especially not after he nearly got Riley killed, and tried to kill her. I do wonder, though. If the chip really was able to get taken out, if he would have really bitten Buffy or not. I doubt he would have killed her, but maybe he would have at least bit her, until she came to her senses and kicked him off, of course.
I didn't start to like him until a little later on in the season, the idea of Spuffy never even appealed to me then. So, I can't say I was very pleased by the dream at the end, just really confused. I think I was relieved that it wasn't real. I actually thought it was at first, but when Buffy started to kiss him back, that's when I knew it couldn't be real.
For some reason, I thought that Spike would kiss her, but I knew she wasn't likely to kiss him back. Especially not after he nearly got Riley killed, and tried to kill her. I do wonder, though. If the chip really was able to get taken out, if he would have really bitten Buffy or not. I doubt he would have killed her, but maybe he would have at least bit her, until she came to her senses and kicked him off, of course.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
I think Spike would have killed Buffy, the dream was what opened his eyes to his real feelings toward her, before that he used to think he was too obsessed with killing her, adding a third slayer to his record.
Buffy slapping Spike like a girlfriend would slap her boyfriend is another hint to the dream in the end I guess
Buffy slapping Spike like a girlfriend would slap her boyfriend is another hint to the dream in the end I guess
Sep 12 2008 11:42 pm #4Spikez_tart
Doesn't he watch anything else? *hugs him* - Spike watches cowboy movies and horror movies as well as Passions. The soaps provide commentary on Spike's life -
(Spike's chained up in Giles bathroom)
SPIKE: (v.o.) "Passions" is on! Timmy's down the bloody well
Spike is hopelessly in love with Buffy - he talks to the TV and says - don't you know she'll never love you? (sorry can't find the quote.)
(Spike's chained up in Giles bathroom)
SPIKE: (v.o.) "Passions" is on! Timmy's down the bloody well
Spike is hopelessly in love with Buffy - he talks to the TV and says - don't you know she'll never love you? (sorry can't find the quote.)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
"Spike is hopelessly in love with Buffy - he talks to the TV and says - don't you know she'll never love you? (sorry can't find the quote."
That's a Dawson's Creek reference, because I think it starts with "Oh, Pacey! You blind idiot. Can't you see she doesn't love you?" I absolutely love that line. Teen soaps are my guilty pleasure, I must admit and I was in the height of my Joshua Jackson lovefest when I first watched this episode.
That's a Dawson's Creek reference, because I think it starts with "Oh, Pacey! You blind idiot. Can't you see she doesn't love you?" I absolutely love that line. Teen soaps are my guilty pleasure, I must admit and I was in the height of my Joshua Jackson lovefest when I first watched this episode.
I remember someone commenting on why we don't see Xander and Willow patrolling with Buffy like in high school days, maybe it's Buffy who doesn't want them to tag along.
That's a good point. I think, although Buffy has always separated herself from the others to some extent ("I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One and her friends." ), she really starts to see herself as alone once she gets in touch with the "slayer essence" thing. It's almost as though, once she abandoned the idea of a "normal life" and started throwing herself into being the best Slayer she could be, she also distanced herself from the normal things in her life - friends, family, boyfriend. She's different, and they'll never understand, so she isolates herself more and more. Plus, the fact that she's continually forced to make the hard choices sets her even farther apart (like she says in "Selfless" ).
What's the deal with Harmony coughing when she took a drag?
I'm pretty sure she's never smoked before, lol. She's just doing it because that's what villains do, and she's a big bad now (didn't you get the memo?).
Guess love isn't really enough for everyone.
Well, I can't really blame them for that. I mean, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover? You have to have an identity for yourself, not just as a support to some other person. And I think in both Buffy's and Xander's cases, they never tried to encourage that in their partners. Buffy, in fact, actually takes away the one thing Riley's good at, by not letting him patrol and take part in the slayage. It seems pretty obvious to me now that he would eventually go back to the military - like Graham says, who wants to be the mission's boyfriend? And Xander doesn't seem to think that Anya might want more out of life than to be his girlfriend - she's already had the one thing she was good at (vengeance) taken away, and he never encourages her to find a new niche for herself as a human.
That's a good point. I think, although Buffy has always separated herself from the others to some extent ("I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One and her friends." ), she really starts to see herself as alone once she gets in touch with the "slayer essence" thing. It's almost as though, once she abandoned the idea of a "normal life" and started throwing herself into being the best Slayer she could be, she also distanced herself from the normal things in her life - friends, family, boyfriend. She's different, and they'll never understand, so she isolates herself more and more. Plus, the fact that she's continually forced to make the hard choices sets her even farther apart (like she says in "Selfless" ).
What's the deal with Harmony coughing when she took a drag?
I'm pretty sure she's never smoked before, lol. She's just doing it because that's what villains do, and she's a big bad now (didn't you get the memo?).
Guess love isn't really enough for everyone.
Well, I can't really blame them for that. I mean, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover? You have to have an identity for yourself, not just as a support to some other person. And I think in both Buffy's and Xander's cases, they never tried to encourage that in their partners. Buffy, in fact, actually takes away the one thing Riley's good at, by not letting him patrol and take part in the slayage. It seems pretty obvious to me now that he would eventually go back to the military - like Graham says, who wants to be the mission's boyfriend? And Xander doesn't seem to think that Anya might want more out of life than to be his girlfriend - she's already had the one thing she was good at (vengeance) taken away, and he never encourages her to find a new niche for herself as a human.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 13 2008 01:22 am #7Guest
Guest
I hated how Spike drew pictures and created a shrine to Buffy, I thought it was creepy and disturbing. I think if Spike had something, anything, to help define him at that point in his life, his feelings for Buffy would have shown themselves in a much healthier way. After all, Spike didn't have friends, a job, a real hobby beyond watching soaps, anything to apply himself to or care about while he sat in the crypt all day and remembering everything he'd ever been or meant was stolen by a chip and Dru dumping him... I think Spike focused way too much on Buffy and trying to be whatever she wanted, without any sense of self or confidence or feeling of worth for himself, which was part of the huge problem of season six. Riley was pretty much cut off from everything he knew and his purpose of being a soldier, and if he had kept somethig apart from Buffy, or a circle of friends outside of hers, I think he wouldn't have tried so desperately to make her his whole focus and then be upset when she didn't reciprocate it and not communicate from insecurity.
Sep 13 2008 01:26 am #8Dee Bradfield
"Spike is hopelessly in love with Buffy - he talks to the TV and says - don't you know she'll never love you? (sorry can't find the quote." That's a Dawson's Creek reference, because I think it starts with "Oh, Pacey! You blind idiot. Can't you see she doesn't love you?" I absolutely love that line. Teen soaps are my guilty pleasure, I must admit and I was in the height of my Joshua Jackson lovefest when I first watched this episode.
I know it's off topic, but the hilarity in this is that the writers were trying to make a correlation between the Dawson/Joey & Angel/Buffy soulmate deal. Which would make Spike Pacey. "She'll never love you." HA! Joey actually chose Pacey in the end, which means that Buffy would actually choose Spike. Ironic, no?
I know it's off topic, but the hilarity in this is that the writers were trying to make a correlation between the Dawson/Joey & Angel/Buffy soulmate deal. Which would make Spike Pacey. "She'll never love you." HA! Joey actually chose Pacey in the end, which means that Buffy would actually choose Spike. Ironic, no?
Sep 13 2008 01:32 am #9Guest
Guest
I liked alot of this episode, but I hated the end of it.
I dunno but you guys, but the freak event of Spike has a dream and suddenly realizes he's hopelessly in love with Buffy seemed way to contrived for me. Like it belonged on one of Spike's precious soaps, I expected more from Joss. I mean was a little effort to make it plausible too much to ask for? Just give us something real (or at least believable). Like instead of Spike nearly ripping Buffy's throat out, Spike mysteriously stopping and then figuring out the reason why he couldn't kill her.
At the time, I had thought Willow had done a spell or something cause I've no doubt that Spike would have killed Buffy had the chip actually been gone and Willow did know how protective and pretty much hopelless Spike was with Dru.
Jane
I dunno but you guys, but the freak event of Spike has a dream and suddenly realizes he's hopelessly in love with Buffy seemed way to contrived for me. Like it belonged on one of Spike's precious soaps, I expected more from Joss. I mean was a little effort to make it plausible too much to ask for? Just give us something real (or at least believable). Like instead of Spike nearly ripping Buffy's throat out, Spike mysteriously stopping and then figuring out the reason why he couldn't kill her.
At the time, I had thought Willow had done a spell or something cause I've no doubt that Spike would have killed Buffy had the chip actually been gone and Willow did know how protective and pretty much hopelless Spike was with Dru.
Jane
I dunno but you guys, but the freak event of Spike has a dream and suddenly realizes he's hopelessly in love with Buffy seemed way to contrived for me.
Hmm... I think maybe the reason it doesn't seem contrived is that it's not exactly coming out of nowhere. Granted, we're mainly Spuffy shippers here, but most people would point to the obvious chemistry between Buffy and Spike since his very first appearance. They've already had a taste of being in love in "Something Blue," and they've both passed up multiple opportunities to kill one another. The attraction is so clearly there - it's just a matter of time before one of them wakes up to it.
Also, I don't think Spike is supposed to be "hopelessly in love with Buffy" right away. He's got the hots for her, and he's having sexy dreams about her, but I think that's about as far as it goes in this episode. It's pure lust, all the way. I don't think he even starts to have fuzzy feelings toward her until at least "Fool For Love," when he sees her vulnerable on the porch, and it's still a rough road from there to "Intervention," when it's made clear that what he feels is really love, and not lust or obsession.
Hmm... I think maybe the reason it doesn't seem contrived is that it's not exactly coming out of nowhere. Granted, we're mainly Spuffy shippers here, but most people would point to the obvious chemistry between Buffy and Spike since his very first appearance. They've already had a taste of being in love in "Something Blue," and they've both passed up multiple opportunities to kill one another. The attraction is so clearly there - it's just a matter of time before one of them wakes up to it.
Also, I don't think Spike is supposed to be "hopelessly in love with Buffy" right away. He's got the hots for her, and he's having sexy dreams about her, but I think that's about as far as it goes in this episode. It's pure lust, all the way. I don't think he even starts to have fuzzy feelings toward her until at least "Fool For Love," when he sees her vulnerable on the porch, and it's still a rough road from there to "Intervention," when it's made clear that what he feels is really love, and not lust or obsession.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I loved the treatment of Spike's dream - especially the desperation that Spike expresses in his dream:
SPIKE: Buffy, I love you. God, I love you so much.
(Cut to Spike sitting up in bed with a gasp, horrified.)
SPIKE: Oh, god, no. Please, no.
James Marsters does a terrific performance with the ending of that Dreamscape scene - Spike understands just how terrible his loving Buffy can become.
Loved the Dawson's Creek line as well -
SPIKE: Buffy, I love you. God, I love you so much.
(Cut to Spike sitting up in bed with a gasp, horrified.)
SPIKE: Oh, god, no. Please, no.
James Marsters does a terrific performance with the ending of that Dreamscape scene - Spike understands just how terrible his loving Buffy can become.
Loved the Dawson's Creek line as well -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm pretty sure she's never smoked before, lol. She's just doing it because that's what villains do, and she's a big bad now (didn't you get the memo?).
This is not the issue. I'm still confused over vampires not being able to breathe or not needing to breathe, I believe in the latter. So why did Harmony cough? She's a vampire, she doesn't need to breathe it.
Sep 13 2008 01:04 pm #13Always_jbj
Moderator
Whether she needs to breathe to survive doesn't matter, she IS breathing--she has to in order to smoke--and the smoke would still tickle her lungs if she's not used to it, hence coughing.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Vampires still breathe reflexively - they wouldn't be able to talk if there wasn't air going in and out. Plus, they need to breathe to smoke, they pant when they're worn out, etc. The lungs must still be working in the sense of being able to draw air into them and then expel it. The only thing they don't do is extract the oxygen from the air and send it into the blood stream, since vampires don't need oxygen.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
The Dreamscape might be an easy out but we all have things that we hide within our dream world - or have things come out like in his dream. The dream device worked for me, not only because it reflects a very human thing but it helped to bring in his past as William - Spike/William, the vampire/man that always came back to living "the sorrow of love" instead of "the joy of love."
Does the idea of taking specific scenes and discussing elements appeal to anyone? Not all the episode discussion has to follow this approach, but it might be a way of bringing more people into the discussions, plus would give us all a better insight into how different members view the series. By this time, most of us have been in many discussions, maybe doing scenes would help give more focus to the threads and help us understand the different perspectives of our members.
Does the idea of taking specific scenes and discussing elements appeal to anyone? Not all the episode discussion has to follow this approach, but it might be a way of bringing more people into the discussions, plus would give us all a better insight into how different members view the series. By this time, most of us have been in many discussions, maybe doing scenes would help give more focus to the threads and help us understand the different perspectives of our members.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Vampires still breathe reflexively - they wouldn't be able to talk if there wasn't air going in and out. Plus, they need to breathe to smoke, they pant when they're worn out, etc. The lungs must still be working in the sense of being able to draw air into them and then expel it. The only thing they don't do is extract the oxygen from the air and send it into the blood stream, since vampires don't need oxygen.
I guess this makes sense. Joss should made a booklet on his vampires for poor obsessed fans and fanfic writers.
nmcil, I don't understand your idea. Do you mean we should discuss each scene in one thread? Like open a thread for Spike's dream scene and another thread to discuss Buffy/Riley in this episode? My way of reviewing episodes is watching them scene after scene with my computer open to write my thoughts, as well as the transcripts at BuffyWorld.com to use when needed. Yes, I'm that obsessed. *blush*
I guess this makes sense. Joss should made a booklet on his vampires for poor obsessed fans and fanfic writers.
nmcil, I don't understand your idea. Do you mean we should discuss each scene in one thread? Like open a thread for Spike's dream scene and another thread to discuss Buffy/Riley in this episode? My way of reviewing episodes is watching them scene after scene with my computer open to write my thoughts, as well as the transcripts at BuffyWorld.com to use when needed. Yes, I'm that obsessed. *blush*
Sep 13 2008 07:34 pm #18Scarlet Ibis
The Bite that didn't happen: I think that Spike would have bitten her (though I don't think he would have killed her--maybe turned on a bit, but then would have been distracted by Harm and Riley), but the bigger question is this: Why was Buffy going to let him do it? She doesn't fight back in the least--she just lies there, waiting for it, mouth agape. The only thing that stopped Spike from sinking his fangs into her was his chip.
Spike being "hopelessly in love": I think the dream just showed that he was...enamored with Buffy. Smitten, and lusting after her. It doesn't evolve into love until, my guess would be "Fool For Love," "Checkpoint" and "Bloodties." Buffy starts to turn to him for more help, trusting him, and he sees her vulnerable and hurting. He doesn't think it's funny--he genuinely wants to help her. That's when the shift changes. Honestly, and this is pure fanwank, but stuff in the ep following FFL (and damn my memory--the ep with the Queller demon), leads me to believe that they bonded that night on her porch steps, talking about Joyce.
I also agree that Spike's "Oh Pacey, can't you see? She'll never love you" was a reference to the emerging Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle. Also, there was no telling at that point which way Joey was going to go...but generally, I do think they were acknowledging the other WB love triangle.
Spike being "hopelessly in love": I think the dream just showed that he was...enamored with Buffy. Smitten, and lusting after her. It doesn't evolve into love until, my guess would be "Fool For Love," "Checkpoint" and "Bloodties." Buffy starts to turn to him for more help, trusting him, and he sees her vulnerable and hurting. He doesn't think it's funny--he genuinely wants to help her. That's when the shift changes. Honestly, and this is pure fanwank, but stuff in the ep following FFL (and damn my memory--the ep with the Queller demon), leads me to believe that they bonded that night on her porch steps, talking about Joyce.
I also agree that Spike's "Oh Pacey, can't you see? She'll never love you" was a reference to the emerging Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle. Also, there was no telling at that point which way Joey was going to go...but generally, I do think they were acknowledging the other WB love triangle.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
nmcil, I don't understand your idea. Do you mean we should discuss each scene in one thread? Like open a thread for Spike's dream scene and another thread to discuss Buffy/Riley in this episode? My way of reviewing episodes is watching them scene after scene with my computer open to write my thoughts, as well as the transcripts at BuffyWorld.com to use when needed. Yes, I'm that obsessed. *blush*
The discussions would still be by episode - but anyone could post a scene that they think is particularly important and we could discuss the scene. Again, I don't mean that the entire discussion has to be done this way - just for the members that want to. Since you already approach the episode with focus on scenes - are there any that you would like to open to discussion? If nothing else, we could at least try out this discussion style and see how it works out.
thanks for your reply -
here is one of the bite images -
The discussions would still be by episode - but anyone could post a scene that they think is particularly important and we could discuss the scene. Again, I don't mean that the entire discussion has to be done this way - just for the members that want to. Since you already approach the episode with focus on scenes - are there any that you would like to open to discussion? If nothing else, we could at least try out this discussion style and see how it works out.
thanks for your reply -
here is one of the bite images -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 14 2008 03:37 pm #20Spikez_tart
SPIKE: (to TV) Oh Pacey, you blind idiot. Can't you see she doesn't love you?
Dee Here's the quote - thanks for id'ing it and the connections to the Dawson Creek stuff. I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible for any one person to get all the JW references in the show. I doubt the actors even got them a lot of the time.
Just lies there - Scarlet - similar to the Halloween episode where Spike is about to bite her - she just lies there and he hesitates. Is that on purpose or just the way the video clips came out? I'm thinking on purpose.
Dream scenes - mostly I hate dream scenes in anything, but they're pretty good in Buffy (when I can figure them out). Does this mean that Spike (and others) have prophetic dreams as well as Buffy? And, why doesn't Buffy have a similar dream about Spike (until the night she beats Spike up over Katrina's death)?
Dee Here's the quote - thanks for id'ing it and the connections to the Dawson Creek stuff. I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible for any one person to get all the JW references in the show. I doubt the actors even got them a lot of the time.
Just lies there - Scarlet - similar to the Halloween episode where Spike is about to bite her - she just lies there and he hesitates. Is that on purpose or just the way the video clips came out? I'm thinking on purpose.
Dream scenes - mostly I hate dream scenes in anything, but they're pretty good in Buffy (when I can figure them out). Does this mean that Spike (and others) have prophetic dreams as well as Buffy? And, why doesn't Buffy have a similar dream about Spike (until the night she beats Spike up over Katrina's death)?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
That's a good idea, nmcil, everybody should discuss scenes they find important and interesting. Actually, I see every scene that has our characters important and I'm starting to discover new things. Like Buffy's alone patrols being Buffy's idea, the Buffy/Riley ship downfall is much clearer now, the Spuffy hints and so on.
Sep 14 2008 07:38 pm #22Scarlet Ibis
Just lies there - Scarlet - similar to the Halloween episode where Spike is about to bite her - she just lies there and he hesitates. Is that on purpose or just the way the video clips came out? I'm thinking on purpose.
In Halloween, Spike goes "down for the kill" (to bite her neck) really slowly. I think there was genuine hesitation on his part only because it really wasn't Buffy/the slayer. The first thing he does is slap her in the face, laughing at her crying. I think he says "I'm going to enjoy this," but he moves so slowly. So he was either savoring the moment, or waiting for a reason not to bite her. Of course, his slow movements is long enough for the spell to be broken, and she's her same ol' self again. In OoMM, he moves quicker,but Buffy doesn't move at all--doesn't try to buck him off, doesn't thrash her head, nothing. But Spike goes for her neck right after he lands on her. Actually, IMHO, when she first enters the room, and hears his chip is out, she looks worried, or at the very least surprised that they'd be fighting (on equal ground). Anyway, if slayers do have a general death wish, I think she displayed it more in this ep than in FFL--I think in that ep it was just sloppy slaying. In OoMM, she was going to let him do it.
Well, that was a helluva ramble.
nmcil--if you want to start such a thread, just go for it
In Halloween, Spike goes "down for the kill" (to bite her neck) really slowly. I think there was genuine hesitation on his part only because it really wasn't Buffy/the slayer. The first thing he does is slap her in the face, laughing at her crying. I think he says "I'm going to enjoy this," but he moves so slowly. So he was either savoring the moment, or waiting for a reason not to bite her. Of course, his slow movements is long enough for the spell to be broken, and she's her same ol' self again. In OoMM, he moves quicker,but Buffy doesn't move at all--doesn't try to buck him off, doesn't thrash her head, nothing. But Spike goes for her neck right after he lands on her. Actually, IMHO, when she first enters the room, and hears his chip is out, she looks worried, or at the very least surprised that they'd be fighting (on equal ground). Anyway, if slayers do have a general death wish, I think she displayed it more in this ep than in FFL--I think in that ep it was just sloppy slaying. In OoMM, she was going to let him do it.
Well, that was a helluva ramble.
nmcil--if you want to start such a thread, just go for it
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
This "Biting" scene is an example of being more focused and bringing in new perspectives. Before it was mentioned here, I had not especially paid attention to her actions, did not realized how Buffy does not forcefully struggle against his bite. Perhaps the idea from the writers and choreography was to emphasis the chip not being taken out and to support the next scene with the doctor and Spike. Why does she not fight harder? Spike certainly meant this as a serious attack, again, was this scene meant to give emphasis his cemetery rage scene? Plan on watching episode again - RL is demanding most of my time right now - trying to get some Obama volunteer work done plus working on some Buffyverse Political Studies and other political graphics works.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I think it's more choreography than anything else. I think what they were going for was a callback to Spike attacking Willow on the bed in "The Initiative," but it's pretty unlikely that Spike could get that close if Buffy was fighting him off, so she just kinda lays there for a second. In any other fight, Buffy probably could have kicked him across the room before he ever got his hands on her - but we need to see the chip go off. It would've made more sense for him to hit her (since he could slip a punch past her more believably than he could get his fangs at her throat), but that wouldn't be as cool of a visual.
As for "Halloween," I think that was Spike savoring the moment, but again, choreography requires that he get close enough to her neck that we think he's going to bite her, but he also has to linger there long enough for the spell to be broken.
if slayers do have a general death wish, I think she displayed it more in this ep than in FFL--I think in that ep it was just sloppy slaying.
Yeah, no disrespect to Spike, because I think he does have a valid point with his death wish speech, but I think Buffy's mistake in "Fool For Love" was more about hubris. She's been through so much, and she's improving so much, that she's starting to think she's invincible - it wasn't that she wanted to die, it was that she'd forgotten she could die. And both points end up coming up again at the end of the season, where she realizes not only that yes, she can die - and she's about to - but that she wants to.
As for "Halloween," I think that was Spike savoring the moment, but again, choreography requires that he get close enough to her neck that we think he's going to bite her, but he also has to linger there long enough for the spell to be broken.
if slayers do have a general death wish, I think she displayed it more in this ep than in FFL--I think in that ep it was just sloppy slaying.
Yeah, no disrespect to Spike, because I think he does have a valid point with his death wish speech, but I think Buffy's mistake in "Fool For Love" was more about hubris. She's been through so much, and she's improving so much, that she's starting to think she's invincible - it wasn't that she wanted to die, it was that she'd forgotten she could die. And both points end up coming up again at the end of the season, where she realizes not only that yes, she can die - and she's about to - but that she wants to.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 14 2008 11:11 pm #25Scarlet Ibis
it's pretty unlikely that Spike could get that close if Buffy was fighting him off, so she just kinda lays there for a second. In any other fight, Buffy probably could have kicked him across the room before he ever got his hands on her - but we need to see the chip go off.
I could buy him jumping her, and in a panic, her not kicking him off. But she still could have jerked her head to the side, uttered a "no" or something, and he could have jerked her head to the side by her hair, and then the chip went off. For her to just lie there was....strange.
As for Spike telling Buffy about death wishes, well, he wasn't there to see what really happened. All he knew was that Buffy got her own stake shoved into her gut (well, not even that much, really, but that she was more than just injured on the job, and she was suddenly scared about kicking the can and how she could possibly screw up). I agree with the hubris--she did already die once, and if you can beat several apocalypses and an actual death...well, I don't blame her for being all "Ha ha--I am invincible Slayer!"
I could buy him jumping her, and in a panic, her not kicking him off. But she still could have jerked her head to the side, uttered a "no" or something, and he could have jerked her head to the side by her hair, and then the chip went off. For her to just lie there was....strange.
As for Spike telling Buffy about death wishes, well, he wasn't there to see what really happened. All he knew was that Buffy got her own stake shoved into her gut (well, not even that much, really, but that she was more than just injured on the job, and she was suddenly scared about kicking the can and how she could possibly screw up). I agree with the hubris--she did already die once, and if you can beat several apocalypses and an actual death...well, I don't blame her for being all "Ha ha--I am invincible Slayer!"
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 15 2008 03:29 am #26goldenusagi
I agree that the almost bite probably happened more because it looked cool, having Spike pounce on her like that. But it's also weird, story-wise, that she didn't struggle or move at all.
As for the dream, the first time I saw it, I thought it was real. I first watched on DVD, and already knew that Spike fell in love with Buffy, so I figured this was the beginning of it. Which it sort of was, but not that way, LOL. Also, did anyone else notice that the shirt he wears in the dream is styled like nothing he's worn before, and is more like some of the clothing he gets in season 6? I'm sure that means nothing, except he had to be able to rip it off quickly in the dream, but it's still interesting.
As for the dream, the first time I saw it, I thought it was real. I first watched on DVD, and already knew that Spike fell in love with Buffy, so I figured this was the beginning of it. Which it sort of was, but not that way, LOL. Also, did anyone else notice that the shirt he wears in the dream is styled like nothing he's worn before, and is more like some of the clothing he gets in season 6? I'm sure that means nothing, except he had to be able to rip it off quickly in the dream, but it's still interesting.
Heh, as the Spuffy relationship progresses, tear-away clothing becomes much more important.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I honestly think that both bite scenes in Halloween and this episode are mostly bad directing. In Halloween, Spike lingers before biting Buffy mostly because the writers want the spell to be lifted so Buffy could kick his ass before he bites her. And here, Buffy doesn't move and just watches as Spike goes for her throat only so he'll be zapped by the chip. In Halloween, the lingering doesn't really say anything about Spike's character and in OOMM Buffy's lying there waiting for the bite doesn't really say anything about Buffy's character. They were just missups.
Sep 15 2008 03:52 pm #29MoscowWatcher
*MAMA 1881*
OOMM aired 17 Oct 2000.
LMPTM aired 25 March 2003
Joss is evil.
Also, did anyone else notice that the shirt he wears in the dream is styled like nothing he's worn before, and is more like some of the clothing he gets in season 6? I'm sure that means nothing, except he had to be able to rip it off quickly in the dream, but it's still interesting.
This is the same style of shirt , if not the same, he wears in "Dead Things" - same open shirt dynamics in the scene at his crypt entrance - think I read somewhere that Joss had planned on the Spike hero sacrifice two years before the finale.
This is the same style of shirt , if not the same, he wears in "Dead Things" - same open shirt dynamics in the scene at his crypt entrance - think I read somewhere that Joss had planned on the Spike hero sacrifice two years before the finale.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The entire final battle scene has Buffy, at least IMO, being primarily concerned with Riley - Spike and Harmony escape because she immediately goes to him when he has his attack. The writers make concerted effort to show how much Buffy cares about Riley in this episode as well as bringing in the tension and stress of Riley being insecure about their relationship.
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
We also have the great foreshadow to Spike's "I'm drowning in you" to Buffy
SPIKE: ...bathe in the slayer's blood. Gonna dive in it. Swim in it. I'm gonna do the bloody backstroke.
I love the title "Out Of My Mind" connects:
Spike trying to get his leash/chip out of his head - later Spike will be know as The Slayer's lapdog and tied to her completely
Riley trying to get all his doubts out of his head
Spike being haunted by The Slayer and trying to get her out of his life - only to be consumed by her and his passion -
Buffy trying to get her past the failed boy friend relationship - her normal man
BUFFY: How's it goin' in there?
RILEY: Good. Back to normal.
(Buffy leans her head against his chest to listen to his heartbeat.)
BUFFY: Yep.
I think that the visual and text from this section have a significant connection to Buffy's need for that "Joe Normal." Obviously her placing head on his heart connects with his heart illness but it also, IMO, connects to the metaphor of heart beat that does not exist in vampires; Not to Angel her great first love and to Spike, her great "self-image" downfall and the man/vampire eventually becomes overwhelmed by his heart/love for her.
Riley loves Buffy very much and Buffy also appears to love him deeply - Spike also will love her beyond all else - apparently love is not enough, nor will it ever be enough, to bring lasting happiness in The Buffyverse.
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
We also have the great foreshadow to Spike's "I'm drowning in you" to Buffy
SPIKE: ...bathe in the slayer's blood. Gonna dive in it. Swim in it. I'm gonna do the bloody backstroke.
I love the title "Out Of My Mind" connects:
Spike trying to get his leash/chip out of his head - later Spike will be know as The Slayer's lapdog and tied to her completely
Riley trying to get all his doubts out of his head
Spike being haunted by The Slayer and trying to get her out of his life - only to be consumed by her and his passion -
Buffy trying to get her past the failed boy friend relationship - her normal man
BUFFY: How's it goin' in there?
RILEY: Good. Back to normal.
(Buffy leans her head against his chest to listen to his heartbeat.)
BUFFY: Yep.
I think that the visual and text from this section have a significant connection to Buffy's need for that "Joe Normal." Obviously her placing head on his heart connects with his heart illness but it also, IMO, connects to the metaphor of heart beat that does not exist in vampires; Not to Angel her great first love and to Spike, her great "self-image" downfall and the man/vampire eventually becomes overwhelmed by his heart/love for her.
Riley loves Buffy very much and Buffy also appears to love him deeply - Spike also will love her beyond all else - apparently love is not enough, nor will it ever be enough, to bring lasting happiness in The Buffyverse.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Anyone want to suggest particular scenes from this episode?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 17 2008 04:23 am #33Spikez_tart
How about the first scene - our Buffy is crouching on top of a crypt looking for kills. She's so enthusiastic, she leaps off the crypt, runs across the cemetery and kills the first vamp before he even gets his head out of the grave. Then, she gets pissed when first Riley, then Spike try to grab away her vampires. No whining about the burden of Slayerness here.
Then, we find out that Buffy didn't know Riley was going to be there, and he didn't know she was there either - nobody's talking to anybody. You'd think that Buffy would want her handy dandy Army boyfriend around to help her out, but no - she doesn't tell him, sneaks off to patrol alone and gets aggravated when he shows up. What's with this attitude? First cracks in the Buffy/Riley foundation?
What is Spike doing out there? He hasn't fallen in love with Buffy, but he's helping her. He could get his spot of violence elsewhere. Sadly, Buffy and Riley make fun of him - he's not worth the trouble of killing - he overhears them and swears vengance, then falls into a grave - foreshadowing falling in love with Buffy and his future real death as well.
Then, we find out that Buffy didn't know Riley was going to be there, and he didn't know she was there either - nobody's talking to anybody. You'd think that Buffy would want her handy dandy Army boyfriend around to help her out, but no - she doesn't tell him, sneaks off to patrol alone and gets aggravated when he shows up. What's with this attitude? First cracks in the Buffy/Riley foundation?
What is Spike doing out there? He hasn't fallen in love with Buffy, but he's helping her. He could get his spot of violence elsewhere. Sadly, Buffy and Riley make fun of him - he's not worth the trouble of killing - he overhears them and swears vengance, then falls into a grave - foreshadowing falling in love with Buffy and his future real death as well.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 17 2008 04:50 am #34Scarlet Ibis
What is Spike doing out there? He hasn't fallen in love with Buffy, but he's helping her.
Wait--we're assuming that Spike was in Buffy's usual haunts. But has it occurred to anyone she's hanging around his crypt and therefore his territory? She does anyway in s6 when she's all "Leave me alone," Spike, but keeps hanging around his crib--crypt. Hanging around there
And whose to say Riley wasn't trailing Buffy? He's got soldier tracking skills after all. Spike shows up, and suddenly, Riley "appears?" Pfft.
Wait--we're assuming that Spike was in Buffy's usual haunts. But has it occurred to anyone she's hanging around his crypt and therefore his territory? She does anyway in s6 when she's all "Leave me alone," Spike, but keeps hanging around his crib--crypt. Hanging around there
And whose to say Riley wasn't trailing Buffy? He's got soldier tracking skills after all. Spike shows up, and suddenly, Riley "appears?" Pfft.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
foreshadowing falling in love with Buffy and his future real death as well.
(he throws a few fake punches at Buffy. She mostly ignores him, walking farther into the room.)
RILEY: What's the matter, afraid of a little competition?
Excellent point and phrase. Buffy is acting more like a predator/hunter that was referred to in Buffy vs. Drac. Your idea with the "falling into the grave" and his impending "fall into Love" and death, his transformation into "an empty shell" makes a wonderful metaphor. Spike "getting his spot of violence" puts them in similar modes. - Buffy is having her spot of violence as well.
Riley being part of "slaying" I think is to support his theme of "trying to keep up with Buffy" and his going from enhanced body back to "normal joe." It's the predator Spike, who sees her desire for being alone. Elements of this scene are used throughout the episode. Buffy leaps and brings down her prey, later Riley will leap and bring down Buffy during the scene of her new training room, Spike will leap off the table and bring down Buffy for his attempted bite. These three characters are all on their way to "self-destruct" - except that for Spike; this is the "coming" of his journey of transformation. Buffy tries so hard to keep her relationship with Riley viable, like this saving of his heart and life, but it will not survive. The graveyard makes a wonderful metaphor for their "comings and goings" as does Spike and the chip removal for his next phase.
I would also like to discuss the "new training room" scene – this, IMO, shows Riley trying to keep up with Buffy. Some viewers may see his "taking the slayer down" as part of his ego problems, others may see it as his trying to connect with Buffy – either way, I think the scene is saying something important about their relationship. Does Riley’s line "afraid of a little competition" suggest problems with ego or his emotional struggle and fear of losing Buffy? I’ve have always seen it as an "ego" problem, but I would like to know what other viewers think.
RILEY: (grinning) So come on, let's test this puppy out. Think you can take me?(he throws a few fake punches at Buffy. She mostly ignores him, walking farther into the room.)
RILEY: What's the matter, afraid of a little competition?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The training room scene. I guess the comment Spike made the earlier night about Buffy not needing Riley and Buffy's less enthusiastic features when she saw him at patrol are what gotten into him. He was fine in the first scene, only wanted to be part of the slaying, I suppose. He wanted to be part of Buffy's patrols because he's good at that. Seeing Buffy not needing him to tag along made him a little insecure. He wanted to be equal with her, which is why he didn't want to lose his superpowers, I guess.
The training room scene. I guess the comment Spike made the earlier night about Buffy not needing Riley and Buffy's less enthusiastic features when she saw him at patrol are what gotten into him. He was fine in the first scene, only wanted to be part of the slaying, I suppose. He wanted to be part of Buffy's patrols because he's good at that. Seeing Buffy not needing him to tag along made him a little insecure. He wanted to be equal with her, which is why he didn't want to lose his superpowers, I guess.
Poor Riley - his mind and body is completely "stressed" even their first Love - bed room scene - brings out his fears and insecurities. It totally sucks to be Riley in this Lover/Joe Normal/Enhanced Body/Boy Friend.
is Graham playing the part of Oracle?
RILEY: There's her.
GRAHAM: Okay, right, there's her. And? You used to have a mission, and now you're what? The mission's boyfriend? Mission's true love?
Poor Riley - his mind and body is completely "stressed" even their first Love - bed room scene - brings out his fears and insecurities. It totally sucks to be Riley in this Lover/Joe Normal/Enhanced Body/Boy Friend.
is Graham playing the part of Oracle?
RILEY: There's her.
GRAHAM: Okay, right, there's her. And? You used to have a mission, and now you're what? The mission's boyfriend? Mission's true love?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yeah, loving Buffy wasn't enough. Riley needed to have an identity of himself, like Eowyn said, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover?
Sep 17 2008 08:08 pm #39Guest
Guest
Physically, Riley vs Buffy is an exaggerated example of what a disabled half of a relationship might feel compared to the healthy half. With any couple, they pretty much have to go at the pace of the weaker or slower half, right? Your partner can show you all the love in the world, but if your relationship has physical limits because of you, you're always feeling guilty for holding the other person back, for limiting their activities if they're going to do them with you. It's just natural to have that insecurity.
Buffy's a bit of a whirlwind in how she lives her life, always on the go, always taking in the changes and new people around her as they come, all full speed ahead (cough*tunnel vision*cough)......and Riley's beginning to see how hard it would be to keep up her with her and keep her interest if he can't maintain that physical and metaphorical pace.
CM
Buffy's a bit of a whirlwind in how she lives her life, always on the go, always taking in the changes and new people around her as they come, all full speed ahead (cough*tunnel vision*cough)......and Riley's beginning to see how hard it would be to keep up her with her and keep her interest if he can't maintain that physical and metaphorical pace.
CM
Your partner can show you all the love in the world, but if your relationship has physical limits because of you, you're always feeling guilty for holding the other person back, for limiting their activities if they're going to do them with you. It's just natural to have that insecurity.
Good Point - and idea of his changing body as metaphor is wonderful - in RL their relationship physical inequality dynamics oftentimes do happen - from Buffy's POV, she worries over his safety and from his, he drives himself to not be left behind. I know that this happens in my relationship - my husband has difficulty walking and we cannot do some of the things we used to - it's a problem for sure.
Good Point - and idea of his changing body as metaphor is wonderful - in RL their relationship physical inequality dynamics oftentimes do happen - from Buffy's POV, she worries over his safety and from his, he drives himself to not be left behind. I know that this happens in my relationship - my husband has difficulty walking and we cannot do some of the things we used to - it's a problem for sure.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 20 2008 01:06 am #41Spikez_tart
NM - yes Buffy worries about him, fusses over him, etc., but she does not tell him she loves him, possibly because she doesn't. We saw how hard she dug her heels in about even admitting to Spike that she liked him - sometimes - so I'm thinking she doesn't love Riley. Cares about him, sure, but that's all.
Also - her fussing over him taking out vampires is silly. In FFL, he takes out the very vampire that gutted her, and grenades all his vampire buddies. He is not a weakling - he's a trained, battle hardened soldier. He knows what he's doing, he's strong and resourceful. Buffy is full of crap. I've never understood why Buffy is supposed to be the only one who takes out vamps. The others are capable, if not as strong. If nothing else they could run vampires down in the daytime and whack off their heads or set fire to them or something. Okay, I went to a gross place.
Also - her fussing over him taking out vampires is silly. In FFL, he takes out the very vampire that gutted her, and grenades all his vampire buddies. He is not a weakling - he's a trained, battle hardened soldier. He knows what he's doing, he's strong and resourceful. Buffy is full of crap. I've never understood why Buffy is supposed to be the only one who takes out vamps. The others are capable, if not as strong. If nothing else they could run vampires down in the daytime and whack off their heads or set fire to them or something. Okay, I went to a gross place.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
You're right. Riley and Wood are the biggest example of mere humans' ability to take vampires and demons. Even Giles and Xander tend to know how to fight (only when writers needed them to) it's a matter of training, that's all. You don't need to be super strong to win, you need to know your enemy and be smart enough. Super strong didn't work with Willow or Glory.
Sep 20 2008 03:45 am #43Scarlet Ibis
Also - her fussing over him taking out vampires is silly.
Yeah, I mean she has several of her average friends fighting in apocalyptic battles, (which are way more dangerous than the average vamp slaying) well, whenever there was an apocalyptic battle. So why does Riley get the short end of the stick?
(also, I still think she didn't love him--he was convenient beef stick guy)
Yeah, I mean she has several of her average friends fighting in apocalyptic battles, (which are way more dangerous than the average vamp slaying) well, whenever there was an apocalyptic battle. So why does Riley get the short end of the stick?
(also, I still think she didn't love him--he was convenient beef stick guy)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Maybe Riley is getting "the short end of the stick" because like Graham asked - is his mission being The Boyfriend? His problem is simply that he does play the role of Boy Friend. Possibly the prime reason for her fussing is not that he can't get it done, but that what she fears once again having her Love/Romantic companion be taken away from her. Not In Anyway suggesting that she does not care for him, she obviously does, or that she is only using him as the "normal Joe" alternative to Angel/Angelus - but I do think that her subconscious fears are a big part of how she treats him.
The reality is that Riley can still be an effective fighter, nothing like his enhanced version, but still very good. The reality is that death can easily come to all of the Scoobies and Riley and Buffy every time they fight. More is a play than the ability to fight vamps - technology would even the field of battle if that were the only issue.
The reality is that Riley can still be an effective fighter, nothing like his enhanced version, but still very good. The reality is that death can easily come to all of the Scoobies and Riley and Buffy every time they fight. More is a play than the ability to fight vamps - technology would even the field of battle if that were the only issue.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 20 2008 07:59 pm #45Scarlet Ibis
The reality is that Riley can still be an effective fighter, nothing like his enhanced version, but still very good. The reality is that death can easily come to all of the Scoobies and Riley and Buffy every time they fight.
Exactly. So why not let him fight? Everyone else gets to. He's younger than Giles, and more skilled than Xander and the others, so why can't he fight a few lousy vamps? What is she protecting him from? He can be the boyfriend and still go on patrol--there's no legitimate reason for the two to be separate. Maybe she just didn't want to spend that much quality time with him.
Exactly. So why not let him fight? Everyone else gets to. He's younger than Giles, and more skilled than Xander and the others, so why can't he fight a few lousy vamps? What is she protecting him from? He can be the boyfriend and still go on patrol--there's no legitimate reason for the two to be separate. Maybe she just didn't want to spend that much quality time with him.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
No, I think it's because Buffy wanted tp patrol alone. Like I said in the beginning. Buffy's alone patrols started in S5, she was pissed to have Riley and Spike interfering. I don't think it's about not spending quality time with him, she spends lots of it outside slaying, anyway.
Sep 20 2008 09:15 pm #47Scarlet Ibis
Okay, that explains her side. But then if they're spending so much time together, then why is he so desperate to have even *more* time with her? Or why is he so hellbent on proving his prowess? Also, I'd like to know which cemetery specifically that was. Because if it was Spike's cemetery (and honestly, I don't know), then she had no business looking all annoyed because that would mean she was in Spike's space, not the other way around. She's known since the year before how excited he was he was able to finally hit something, so seeing him on patrol shouldn't have been that huge of a shock.
Also, does anyone besides me think that if Buffy had given the green light, Riley totally would have staked Spike?
Also, does anyone besides me think that if Buffy had given the green light, Riley totally would have staked Spike?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I don't think Riley's problem is Buffy not spending time with him. His problem is that she treats him like a weakling, depending on Dawn's comments. Like he said, "Instead of taking care of me, why don't we take care of each other?" He wants them to be equal, and since he doesn't believe she loves him, it hurts than she treats him as someone less useful.
Was it Spike's cemetery? I don't remember. I'd think Buffy knows where Spike lives since she goes to him whenever she needed info.
Also, does anyone besides me think that if Buffy had given the green light, Riley totally would have staked Spike?
Well, Riley did say in Buffy vs Dracula that Buffy won't stake Spike because he's helpless, but Riley doesn't have a problem with staking him. I think he's just respecting Buffy's wishes not to stake Spike while he has a chip in his head.
Was it Spike's cemetery? I don't remember. I'd think Buffy knows where Spike lives since she goes to him whenever she needed info.
Also, does anyone besides me think that if Buffy had given the green light, Riley totally would have staked Spike?
Well, Riley did say in Buffy vs Dracula that Buffy won't stake Spike because he's helpless, but Riley doesn't have a problem with staking him. I think he's just respecting Buffy's wishes not to stake Spike while he has a chip in his head.
I think he would have - Was it in Buffy vs Drac that he tells Spike he has no problem whatever with staking him?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yes, he did. He just won't do it, because of Buffy. Once she gives him the "okay", Riley would stake him in a heart beat.
Sep 21 2008 06:20 pm #51TammyDevil666
We forget that Riley did technically stake Spike once. Sure, with a plastic stake, but still. I think he could have easily used a real one, it didn't matter what Buffy said. I think the fact that he used a fake one was even more cruel, but then they're just bonding and drinking afterwards, I always found that scene to be a bit strange.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Why wouldn't Riley stake Spike then? if what Buffy said didn't matter, why wouldn't he do it then?
Sep 21 2008 07:26 pm #53Scarlet Ibis
I do think that what Buffy said mattered, but why kind of sadistic asshole carries around a plastic wood grain stake? When Xander was split in half, he was the only one who seriously wanted to perform tests on them. Keeping in mind that you can take the boy out of the Initiative...merely staking Spike would be too easy. There'd be no real satisfaction in just killing him. He wanted to cause him pain.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 21 2008 07:59 pm #54Spikez_tart
I think the dream just showed that he was...enamored with Buffy. Smitten, and lusting after her. - He is smitten and lusting, but also in love - he says so. Buffy replies that she "wants" him. And that's how S6 plays out, Spike in love, Buffy in lust.
Riley dusting Spike - it's sort of strange that he doesn't in the plastic stake scene. How would Buffy even know? Just bring along that portable dust buster and let Buffy think Spike finally left town. She probably wouldn't even notice for months. I conclude that in spite of Riley's bluster and anger, that he's not so totally around the bend that he would take out Spike who can't fight back. Maybe it's a manly man kinda thang or maybe he wants to leave behind the black/white space he was in when Oz got captured so that Buffy will think he's a good guy. Either way - he had the chance and he didn't.
Riley dusting Spike - it's sort of strange that he doesn't in the plastic stake scene. How would Buffy even know? Just bring along that portable dust buster and let Buffy think Spike finally left town. She probably wouldn't even notice for months. I conclude that in spite of Riley's bluster and anger, that he's not so totally around the bend that he would take out Spike who can't fight back. Maybe it's a manly man kinda thang or maybe he wants to leave behind the black/white space he was in when Oz got captured so that Buffy will think he's a good guy. Either way - he had the chance and he didn't.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
the primarly difference is that at this point Riley does not believe that Spike has actually gotten close to Buffy - in the scene with plastic stake Riley tells him had touched her he would kill him for real next time. The end of that scene is more like misery likes company, both are misirable together.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 22 2008 12:15 pm #56Spikez_tart
Not In Anyway suggesting that she does not care for him, she obviously does,
But "care" for him is all. She runs right to Spike when Riley goes missing (yeah yeah - I know, Spike mighty sniffer, but really she's always finding some reason to run to Spike), she tracks Riley down in the caves and in that blow up she says she "needs" him, never says she loves him (could there have been a more perfect time to make that declaration?), dumps him right after he has surgery and is injured with an arrow, doesn't even make sure he gets home okay, and calls him weak and kittenish in front of her blabbermouth sister. I'm thinking its Riley who is "just convenient."
But "care" for him is all. She runs right to Spike when Riley goes missing (yeah yeah - I know, Spike mighty sniffer, but really she's always finding some reason to run to Spike), she tracks Riley down in the caves and in that blow up she says she "needs" him, never says she loves him (could there have been a more perfect time to make that declaration?), dumps him right after he has surgery and is injured with an arrow, doesn't even make sure he gets home okay, and calls him weak and kittenish in front of her blabbermouth sister. I'm thinking its Riley who is "just convenient."
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Actually, it was Giles' suggestion to ask Spike, because he knows all about the caves of the Initiative. Buffy did as Giles suggested.
I also think this episode contains the worst bit of "business" in the entire run of the show: the hilariously bad "brain surgery" scene. I can never watch this without thinking of the climactic "emergency-brain-surgery-in-a-restaurant" scene from "Soapdish", where they whip out a tea strainer to stand in for the anesthesia mask. Unfortunately, I don't think the badness was intentional here, but maybe I should listen to the commentary one of these days. The OOMM surgery was just stupid, with Spike moving his head around, and the lame-o tape on the back of his head when it's all over. It is to squirm, and not in the Surgery Channel sort of way. Maybe it's just me, but my disbelief is not willing to be suspended at that point. Not like with monsters and magic and witches: oh no. Actually, there was another, better surgery (and funnier), when they dug the tracking device out of Spike's back in Season 4. So, no excuses!
LOL!!! You're right. They do look silly when you really think about them.
I want to know just when the doctor managed to get that penny? does he just happen to have one in his doctor's outfit? It was totally a silly premise - even vamps would need so level of anesthesia - did he get a local? As stated, the Season 4 episode was realistic this one was played for laughs and easier production. They do have Buffy explanation of how Spike would set it up -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 24 2008 01:42 am #61goldenusagi
Yeah, he did. After Spike snipes at Harmony, she says "You're awake?" and the doctor replies that Spike got a local. The penny thing was weird, though. And even with a local, I don't know if Spike could really be bouncing around like that afterward. He just had his brain opened up.
Sep 26 2008 04:12 am #62Spikez_tart
Oh yeah - you can have a local when they're operating on your brain. Not to mention, the doctor tells Spike that the operating room is no good, but he has no problem performing some kind of heart surgery on Riley there.
On the subject of lousy medicine in the Buffyverse - CAT scans (like they gave Joyce) don't require an overnight stay, they take about three minutes. MRI's only take a couple of hours (usually because the computer burps in the middle and they have to start over) and I'm pretty sure they can't "biopsy" your brain. Jeesh - that's why they do MRI's so they don't have to start cutting. Not to mention that HMO's don't pay for you to lie around the hospital for two days waiting for surgery.
Buffy gets a stake in the gut and she hardly bleeds; then she gets shot in the heart and again, hardly bleeds. When she's in the operating room, Xander is standing outside looking thru the glass and watching (as if) and a nurse walks from the hall right into the operating room. Sterilization anyone?
On the subject of lousy medicine in the Buffyverse - CAT scans (like they gave Joyce) don't require an overnight stay, they take about three minutes. MRI's only take a couple of hours (usually because the computer burps in the middle and they have to start over) and I'm pretty sure they can't "biopsy" your brain. Jeesh - that's why they do MRI's so they don't have to start cutting. Not to mention that HMO's don't pay for you to lie around the hospital for two days waiting for surgery.
Buffy gets a stake in the gut and she hardly bleeds; then she gets shot in the heart and again, hardly bleeds. When she's in the operating room, Xander is standing outside looking thru the glass and watching (as if) and a nurse walks from the hall right into the operating room. Sterilization anyone?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 26 2008 05:13 am #63goldenusagi
Eh, the lack of blood thing is probably due to appropriate content for ratings.
Some brain surgery actually requires you to be awake so they can check your responses, so they do use a local. As for the Joyce thing, I wondered if she really needed to stay overnight for something like that... Someday I'm going to write a season 5 fic, but I want to research medical stuff, so I don't just end up with a vague "Joyce is sick, it's in her brain" subplot floating around.
Some brain surgery actually requires you to be awake so they can check your responses, so they do use a local. As for the Joyce thing, I wondered if she really needed to stay overnight for something like that... Someday I'm going to write a season 5 fic, but I want to research medical stuff, so I don't just end up with a vague "Joyce is sick, it's in her brain" subplot floating around.
Sep 26 2008 05:22 am #64Guest
Guest
Yeah, there's a massive amount of bad medicine in the show. You forgot the finale when Buffy got her stomach impaled by the ubervamp. She should have been rapidly bleeding out, yet she gets up and starts fighting and running and jumping like nothing ever happened.
And let's don't forget that the entire premise of Spike's chip was complete and utter cr@p.
The brain has no pain receptors, an electric shock like the chip was supposed to deliver would disrupt brain function, perhaps cause some seizures, but the whole "shock collar" thing? No, the brain itself can't feel pain, it merely interpret pains signals that are delivered to it via the nervious system.
Don't even get me started on the bad technology presented to explain the chip itself...
And let's don't forget that the entire premise of Spike's chip was complete and utter cr@p.
The brain has no pain receptors, an electric shock like the chip was supposed to deliver would disrupt brain function, perhaps cause some seizures, but the whole "shock collar" thing? No, the brain itself can't feel pain, it merely interpret pains signals that are delivered to it via the nervious system.
Don't even get me started on the bad technology presented to explain the chip itself...
Sep 27 2008 02:08 am #65Guest
Guest
Well, they could have wired the chip outward enough for the pain, for the feel of headaches and migraines. Considering the bionic stuff they're coming up with now, something functioning like the chip isn't too far off. Obviously, the show can't take the time to adequately explain it, but that's why we call is sci-fi. But there's already been a guy with a chip in his head as part of a study. And we're only 2 years away from a bionic eye lens.
They can take a tiny bit of brain tissue from certain areas for biopsy, to look for certain things under the microscope. But they can take the sample with a needle to get the cells. Just need to cut a small whole in the skull so the needle can go in. If they find a lump, depending on the size, they'll take a sample of it to test if it's cancer or benign, before going full out to remove it. If they can remove it.
CM
They can take a tiny bit of brain tissue from certain areas for biopsy, to look for certain things under the microscope. But they can take the sample with a needle to get the cells. Just need to cut a small whole in the skull so the needle can go in. If they find a lump, depending on the size, they'll take a sample of it to test if it's cancer or benign, before going full out to remove it. If they can remove it.
CM
Sep 28 2008 02:58 am #66Spikez_tart
She should have been rapidly bleeding out, yet she gets up and starts fighting - no kidding. You've got about 15 minutes to live after an injury like that, maybe less if your heart is pumping like crazy like say after you've been in a big fight.
Guest - if your brain can't feel pain, what about headaches. I guess sinus headaches are just the sinus passages, but what about a migraine or a cluster headache?
Guest - if your brain can't feel pain, what about headaches. I guess sinus headaches are just the sinus passages, but what about a migraine or a cluster headache?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 28 2008 03:25 am #67Guest
Guest
Sry, I forgot to sign my last post.
OK Bio Facts about pain for the lay person:
Internal organs and such don't have pain receptors, but if their tissues are distressed, they will release "stuff" into the bloodstream, this "stuff" will travel in the blood until they finally reach an area with pain receptors. Hence why someone having a heart attack grabs their shoulder area when their heart is actually near the center of their chest - it's where they are actually feeling the pain.
Headaches are much more complicated because "headache" symptoms are caused by a variety of different things. But the pain you feel is not actually being "felt" by the brain itself. With a sinus headache, you feel it in your sinus area, not the olfactory part of your brain. You actually feel headache on the periphery of your head, not in the center.
With the chip, my main nitpick is that was triggered not simply by aggression, but it was geared soley against harming human beings. That sort of understanding of the human brain is still far beyond us. Then there's the matter of power that such a device would have to deliver in order to cause the amount of pain is supposedly caused Spike. It takes quite a bit of voltage to cause that level of blinding/disabling pain. The gentlest of tasers deliver tens of thousands of volts and some people can still overcome it. Any sort of battery on such a small device couldn't constantly be delivering such a huge charge consistently over the years Spike had it.
Dina
OK Bio Facts about pain for the lay person:
Internal organs and such don't have pain receptors, but if their tissues are distressed, they will release "stuff" into the bloodstream, this "stuff" will travel in the blood until they finally reach an area with pain receptors. Hence why someone having a heart attack grabs their shoulder area when their heart is actually near the center of their chest - it's where they are actually feeling the pain.
Headaches are much more complicated because "headache" symptoms are caused by a variety of different things. But the pain you feel is not actually being "felt" by the brain itself. With a sinus headache, you feel it in your sinus area, not the olfactory part of your brain. You actually feel headache on the periphery of your head, not in the center.
With the chip, my main nitpick is that was triggered not simply by aggression, but it was geared soley against harming human beings. That sort of understanding of the human brain is still far beyond us. Then there's the matter of power that such a device would have to deliver in order to cause the amount of pain is supposedly caused Spike. It takes quite a bit of voltage to cause that level of blinding/disabling pain. The gentlest of tasers deliver tens of thousands of volts and some people can still overcome it. Any sort of battery on such a small device couldn't constantly be delivering such a huge charge consistently over the years Spike had it.
Dina
:-P
:love
:wah:
:(
:drugs:
:um:
:getwriting:
:tsk:
:buhbye:
:coffeelove:
:eatme:
:smooch:
:kiss:
:heartfic:
:shrug:
:sigh:
:drink:
:goodevil:
:what:
:evil:
:hyper:
:lol:
:reading:
:readporn:
:up:
:hand:
:down:
:hurl:
:wave:
:vampire:
:moon:
:D
:boohoo:
:tongue:
:shake:
:lurk:
:happy:
:announce:
:stupid:
:grr:
:)
:wazzup:
:right:
:insane:
:crap:
:poke:
:stalker:
:taped:
:grrarg:
:throughpc:
:fic:
:halo:
:help:
:clap:
:eyebrows:
:bday:
:dance:
:needsmut:
:lash:
:neener:
:bow:
:wall:
:spank:
:butthead:
:hair:
:suck:
:get:
:spuffy:
:soon:
:vamps:
;-)
;)
:-(
:P
:O
:-O
:-D
:blush:
:-)
:cheer:
:sleep:
:pigsfly: