BSV Forum - General - Off-Topic
The Big Bad Twilight Revealed?Dec 22 2009 11:05 pm #1BandS
Guest
Ok, I really don't read the comics, but with that in mind, I'd like to hear some opinions or hopes...
I do get an email when I had been getting the comics. Well, as you can tell, I stopped reading them. After the 4th comic, that is...lol. I find them ok, but sometimes incredibly hard to follow.
Anyway, I read the pre-order issue coming up March 03, 2010...and literally was wondering who from Buffy's past is the character new Big Bad Twilight???? Could it be someone she knew before Sunnydale...Could it be Angel (Yuck to that one...seriously not a big Angel fan), maybe Spike???? (though I kinda doubt it...although judging from the drawing it could be...). I have gone through all I could remember of the series, but the one thing that stands in my mind is....
What about Pike??????? Could it be? But then why are Willow and Xander shocked at the reveal? That's why I leaned more towards the possibility of maybe Spike or even (groans loudly lol) Angel...but then I thought even maybe Riley...but I could have sworn he was in the comics early on? Am I mistaken? Then I knocked all three of those ideas and stuck with Pike...but what had me so confused was the shocked expressions...which kept me on the hope of it being Spike....I haven't read much of Angel Comics either, but from what I see, those comics are fewer than the Buffy series...So I'm grasping here thinking maybe...But it's probably not...
I don't read them at all...I'm just wildly curious who Twilight could be....Any ideas? Could we go down a list of who could shock them all when WHO IS TWILIGHT is revealed? To wait....and I don't even read them lol...probably someone so incredibly obvious too....
I do get an email when I had been getting the comics. Well, as you can tell, I stopped reading them. After the 4th comic, that is...lol. I find them ok, but sometimes incredibly hard to follow.
Anyway, I read the pre-order issue coming up March 03, 2010...and literally was wondering who from Buffy's past is the character new Big Bad Twilight???? Could it be someone she knew before Sunnydale...Could it be Angel (Yuck to that one...seriously not a big Angel fan), maybe Spike???? (though I kinda doubt it...although judging from the drawing it could be...). I have gone through all I could remember of the series, but the one thing that stands in my mind is....
What about Pike??????? Could it be? But then why are Willow and Xander shocked at the reveal? That's why I leaned more towards the possibility of maybe Spike or even (groans loudly lol) Angel...but then I thought even maybe Riley...but I could have sworn he was in the comics early on? Am I mistaken? Then I knocked all three of those ideas and stuck with Pike...but what had me so confused was the shocked expressions...which kept me on the hope of it being Spike....I haven't read much of Angel Comics either, but from what I see, those comics are fewer than the Buffy series...So I'm grasping here thinking maybe...But it's probably not...
I don't read them at all...I'm just wildly curious who Twilight could be....Any ideas? Could we go down a list of who could shock them all when WHO IS TWILIGHT is revealed? To wait....and I don't even read them lol...probably someone so incredibly obvious too....
Dec 23 2009 03:59 am #2Scarlet Ibis
I've heard rumor it's Future!Xander.
Or Clem.
Or Clem.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 23 2009 04:24 am #3Spikez_tart
Yeah, it's probably Clem. He's a big international weapons dealer after all. He may even have a cell phone. It could be Parker or maybe Ford.
Do you sometimes have to read the comics about three times to figure out what the hell they're talking about? And, did the Goddesses make Buffy into a giantess because I think that will make me heave.
Do you sometimes have to read the comics about three times to figure out what the hell they're talking about? And, did the Goddesses make Buffy into a giantess because I think that will make me heave.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
most of the speculation on another board I visit is on Fray's brother Harth or Icarus, I could even be a future Buffy clone that is the top power player with Twilight as her general. With the Slayer line split into Fray and Harth, male & female counterparts and the Slayer memory connection is now with the male line, plus their is now a human sister that is part of the family. Twighlight could also be a time travel Watcher. There is speculation that it could be Future Xander since they have established the Xander-Dawn relationship, but with the history of The Buffy/Willow Slayer transformation and the Fray time line, I don't see how Xander would be such a formidable power player, thus far there is nothing to support his being involved in the future time line Buffy's travel to the Fray time line has effected changes - I just started reading the Fray book today - glad that I will be able to catch up on that part of the story - When Buffy goes through the portal, it looks like the scythes were unraveling.
Who are the players that have always been important in the Slayerverse - it was the Council of Watchers, and super powerful demon forces and the Slayer - I think that the same dynamics will be at work now - Fray and Buffy changed the power structure in their individual time lines.
Who are the players that have always been important in the Slayerverse - it was the Council of Watchers, and super powerful demon forces and the Slayer - I think that the same dynamics will be at work now - Fray and Buffy changed the power structure in their individual time lines.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 23 2009 07:11 am #5BandS
Guest
I really didn't want to do this, but I did anyway. When I first started reading them, I literally was lost...
Spikez_tart I can completely agree with you on that. I have to go back and re-read them because the format is so different from and actual detailed book. I'd actually rather this as a book than a comic.
Very few know me, but I'm pretty open. This is sort of off topic...lol I recently found more family through Ancestry.com. I was adopted and taken from a bad situation back then. Thing was, I was lied to my whole life...about my fathers side (who was killed when I was 3). I was told he didn't have family.
Long story short...I found them. Extremely happy now...Lots of questions still trying to be answered, but now it can be learned together over time...The weird part, but amazing part...is the brother I found....We are so alike, it's scary! LOL. Funny part? We laughed so long when we found out our secret obsession! Spuffy!!!!!
So, he too speaks fluently in computer speak/ internet speak. We discovered that we share very similar views on Spuffy and all of the characters. Weird and pretty great at the same time.
It would have been great if at the time we were both reading for Spuffy in 2006 we crossed paths, but my path was miserable to say the least...That would have been a great Spuffy meet-up story...but finding out we have this in common, is enough for both of us. It's rare we find others closer to us or near us that read Spuffy fan fiction.
Back to my point lol...I love tangents, lol. He basically sent me a program to use so I could read all the comics...So I have been reading them. I think I understand the Satsu thing much better...and found it remarkably very very funny too. Karma Buffy...look into it lol.
I don't know about all that have made the suggestions...but when I look at the covers...To me I think otherwise. Buffy literally looks like she is about to collapse from shock and her eyes look so sad and devastated when the reveal happens on one of the covers...but we don't know yet. The second one made me question everything too...All three are in the background. The three? Buffy, Willow, and Xander are behind Twilight in shock...
I'm going with they know this 'being'. My brother and I felt it might very well be Riley...but the thing is the demons along side soldiers is what threw me. It's also said that Twilight knows Buffy. He was in her past. When I heard that I started thinking...no way...Pike maybe? But then, that didn't make sense.
Future Xander could make some sense...but this character...Uh, wouldn't it go against what Twilight is looking to achieve? I mean coming back takes a lot of magic...This character is fighting against that, and trying to close the Hellmouths....That's kinda why I thought Riley.
I have heard of Fray but then it falls back on the use of magic and something I caught onto rather quickly...was Twilight wanted to rid the world of Hellmouths and magic...basically striving for what Buffy wanted all along.
Sounds like something Riley would do...try and be the bigger man...(ya not a loving Riley fan either lol)
I saw Initiative and red flags were lighting up like a Christmas tree! Like what if Riley obtained the abilities along with his army training while starting up another Initiative (pumping himself of more steroid type drugs and demon abilities)...I mean once Initiative...and yes I do believe you can change...but what if?????
Parker is I don't know an idiot who wouldn't know the first thing except how to use a girl, maybe? LOL. Wasn't Ford dusted...but then again nothing seems to stay dead in this universe.
Clem though, is a shock???? Really? Does he turn human? Because the pic of Twilight certainly looks human. And, in one of the comics # 11 he shows off a bit of chin again...March is too far off...
As much as comics are different and in no way like fan fiction...they aren't too bad...but still harder to understand...I have noticed mistakes with words and it jumps quite a bit yet I manage to get the gist of it...So now, I don't feel so bad about my own writing...lmao....
Love all of your answers...something for my brain to ponder over other than my job taking over my life right now...lol Darn busy holidays...
Spikez_tart I can completely agree with you on that. I have to go back and re-read them because the format is so different from and actual detailed book. I'd actually rather this as a book than a comic.
Very few know me, but I'm pretty open. This is sort of off topic...lol I recently found more family through Ancestry.com. I was adopted and taken from a bad situation back then. Thing was, I was lied to my whole life...about my fathers side (who was killed when I was 3). I was told he didn't have family.
Long story short...I found them. Extremely happy now...Lots of questions still trying to be answered, but now it can be learned together over time...The weird part, but amazing part...is the brother I found....We are so alike, it's scary! LOL. Funny part? We laughed so long when we found out our secret obsession! Spuffy!!!!!
So, he too speaks fluently in computer speak/ internet speak. We discovered that we share very similar views on Spuffy and all of the characters. Weird and pretty great at the same time.
It would have been great if at the time we were both reading for Spuffy in 2006 we crossed paths, but my path was miserable to say the least...That would have been a great Spuffy meet-up story...but finding out we have this in common, is enough for both of us. It's rare we find others closer to us or near us that read Spuffy fan fiction.
Back to my point lol...I love tangents, lol. He basically sent me a program to use so I could read all the comics...So I have been reading them. I think I understand the Satsu thing much better...and found it remarkably very very funny too. Karma Buffy...look into it lol.
I don't know about all that have made the suggestions...but when I look at the covers...To me I think otherwise. Buffy literally looks like she is about to collapse from shock and her eyes look so sad and devastated when the reveal happens on one of the covers...but we don't know yet. The second one made me question everything too...All three are in the background. The three? Buffy, Willow, and Xander are behind Twilight in shock...
I'm going with they know this 'being'. My brother and I felt it might very well be Riley...but the thing is the demons along side soldiers is what threw me. It's also said that Twilight knows Buffy. He was in her past. When I heard that I started thinking...no way...Pike maybe? But then, that didn't make sense.
Future Xander could make some sense...but this character...Uh, wouldn't it go against what Twilight is looking to achieve? I mean coming back takes a lot of magic...This character is fighting against that, and trying to close the Hellmouths....That's kinda why I thought Riley.
I have heard of Fray but then it falls back on the use of magic and something I caught onto rather quickly...was Twilight wanted to rid the world of Hellmouths and magic...basically striving for what Buffy wanted all along.
Sounds like something Riley would do...try and be the bigger man...(ya not a loving Riley fan either lol)
I saw Initiative and red flags were lighting up like a Christmas tree! Like what if Riley obtained the abilities along with his army training while starting up another Initiative (pumping himself of more steroid type drugs and demon abilities)...I mean once Initiative...and yes I do believe you can change...but what if?????
Parker is I don't know an idiot who wouldn't know the first thing except how to use a girl, maybe? LOL. Wasn't Ford dusted...but then again nothing seems to stay dead in this universe.
Clem though, is a shock???? Really? Does he turn human? Because the pic of Twilight certainly looks human. And, in one of the comics # 11 he shows off a bit of chin again...March is too far off...
As much as comics are different and in no way like fan fiction...they aren't too bad...but still harder to understand...I have noticed mistakes with words and it jumps quite a bit yet I manage to get the gist of it...So now, I don't feel so bad about my own writing...lmao....
Love all of your answers...something for my brain to ponder over other than my job taking over my life right now...lol Darn busy holidays...
On the speculation of Twiglight, Slayer time lines, future and past - the one thing that I took note of from the very first issue was the reference to the Queen Elizabeth look-a-like. This theme of royalty, history, power struggles, and divergence of bloodlines keeps coming up in the comic series. Even some of the clothing that is worn reference court and the potential connection to Elizabethan period, another time that princesses and coauthors fought over who would control. Giles also wears a t-shirt that referenced rebellion over power structure. Now unless all these visuals are put there just to confuse the readers and to keep the story arc a well kept secret, I have to think that ultimately we will see that the struggle is between the power players from the Fray time line and the Buffy/Willow Magic Transformation.
The figure shown in Issue 28 looks very much like Icarus, but that in itself does not particularly mean it is - that figure is again wearing clothing that suggests historical clothing of around the Elizabethan period.
Karma Buffy - yes indeed lol.
The figure shown in Issue 28 looks very much like Icarus, but that in itself does not particularly mean it is - that figure is again wearing clothing that suggests historical clothing of around the Elizabethan period.
Karma Buffy - yes indeed lol.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Anyone have comments about Harth and this love that he feels for the Slayers in his memories? It sounds like Harth dreams of The First Slayer or the spirit force that she was created from.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 24 2009 01:21 am #8BandS
Guest
SHHHH.....LOL I'm up to 23, but now that I have seen more clues...Nope it isn't Riley.
I'd actually believe that it could be a future Xander. He would come back and fight against the closing of the Hellmouths and magic...to sacrifice himself in the end...
However, now reading the issue involving Fray...I'm not so sure...I have had some puzzling moments while reading these...maybe it's the comic format...because sometimes? They make no sense whatsoever! I'm not incredibly book smart, but I'd like to think I do use my brain...I'm not stupid...but some things they write are seriously having me pull a Buffy!
The part with Dracula too...first it's shown the accent 'speech'. Except then all of a sudden he speaks normal? He still has some control over Xander...yet towards the end Xander stands up to him? I get they are friends which is really cool that they are...Xander certainly came a long way from his demon hating days then....
I am seeing more of Twilight now...This guy is tall so I'm still trying to figure out who...Sighs...Guess we'll see in March lol...
Noticed: Lots of Scooby time, especially with Willow and Buffy facing past issues...Geez Joss really doesn't look for happy endings at all...I read one of the Q&A's...Scott Allie pretty much confirms it. Even with friendships too he looks at having friction and conflicts with...dang just inevitable death...
Wouldn't one want to live out realistically, yeah, but with a sense of some fulfillment? I just get that feeling of doom and gloom with this arc...that it's all about struggle, power, and ultimate death....Am I wrong...Not saying it's a bad thing because it happens eventually...I'm thinking too much lol...
I'd actually believe that it could be a future Xander. He would come back and fight against the closing of the Hellmouths and magic...to sacrifice himself in the end...
However, now reading the issue involving Fray...I'm not so sure...I have had some puzzling moments while reading these...maybe it's the comic format...because sometimes? They make no sense whatsoever! I'm not incredibly book smart, but I'd like to think I do use my brain...I'm not stupid...but some things they write are seriously having me pull a Buffy!
The part with Dracula too...first it's shown the accent 'speech'. Except then all of a sudden he speaks normal? He still has some control over Xander...yet towards the end Xander stands up to him? I get they are friends which is really cool that they are...Xander certainly came a long way from his demon hating days then....
I am seeing more of Twilight now...This guy is tall so I'm still trying to figure out who...Sighs...Guess we'll see in March lol...
Noticed: Lots of Scooby time, especially with Willow and Buffy facing past issues...Geez Joss really doesn't look for happy endings at all...I read one of the Q&A's...Scott Allie pretty much confirms it. Even with friendships too he looks at having friction and conflicts with...dang just inevitable death...
Wouldn't one want to live out realistically, yeah, but with a sense of some fulfillment? I just get that feeling of doom and gloom with this arc...that it's all about struggle, power, and ultimate death....Am I wrong...Not saying it's a bad thing because it happens eventually...I'm thinking too much lol...
Dec 24 2009 03:38 am #9Spikez_tart
BandS - That's a wonderful story about you finding your brother. I can only imagine how exciting that must have been. There's certainly something in the DNA that makes family members minds run in certain directions. I know my brother and I are very similar in the way we think.
Twilight is definitely not Riley and I was kidding about Clem. I didn't know it was supposed to be someone from Buffy's past. Merely being dusted as a vampire would never stop Joss; Darla was dusted and she came prancing back as a human. Maybe it's Harth. Future Xander - ugh no anything but that. Maybe it's Robin Wood? We haven't seen him around. Now I'll have to think about it. I don't have all the comics so I missed the early info re Twilight.
Twilight is definitely not Riley and I was kidding about Clem. I didn't know it was supposed to be someone from Buffy's past. Merely being dusted as a vampire would never stop Joss; Darla was dusted and she came prancing back as a human. Maybe it's Harth. Future Xander - ugh no anything but that. Maybe it's Robin Wood? We haven't seen him around. Now I'll have to think about it. I don't have all the comics so I missed the early info re Twilight.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Just wanted to also say how great it is that you found your brother and are now connected with your first family - and finding a Spuffy and Joss Friend at the same time, just makes things better.
I am very happy for you -
I am very happy for you -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 24 2009 09:24 pm #11ladycat713
Guest
Maybe it's future Satsu and she's bulked up a bit with steroids (if the shape appears mannish) out to destroy Buffy because Buffy so callously used her and led her on. Which would mean Buffy deserved to have it bite her in the butt and maybe would learn not to use people. Though I seriously doubt it especially the learning part .
Dec 25 2009 02:00 am #12~ Ami
Guest
LMAO Ladycat... It seems Buffy will always be a user. Don't know when Joss will finally let her mature and stop using people.
One of the many reasons I stopped reading the comics, cause it seems S7 never happened.
Oh well...
One of the many reasons I stopped reading the comics, cause it seems S7 never happened. Oh well...Very Interesting discussion on Willow and Buffy in Season 8 - excellent read
http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=buffyseason8&thread=9962&page=1
Good Interview with Georges Jeanty and info on Twiglight
http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=47666
http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=buffyseason8&thread=9962&page=1
Good Interview with Georges Jeanty and info on Twiglight
http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=47666
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 28 2009 08:12 pm #14BandS
Guest
Thanks for the comments! It is a great feeling when you set your mind to something very important -- and get it done.
Nmcil thanks for the reads! Interesting how SlayAlive spoke on how the romance in Season 8 was dead -- then to how Willow and Buffy were mother and father to the Slayers they essentially gave 'birth' to. Although, as I have read all the comics up-to-date...I disagree with that in depth analized concept.
There is so much 'romance' but tension that can be felt in the series so far...Actually I could sense it with Buffy and this 'Big Bad' too. Not the I want to end you tension...but a familiarity? Does that make sense? There are so many ways romance can be interpreted, but judging by what has concluded so far...There is quite amount of jealousy, realizations, bonding, confliction, hurt, and still a great deal of growing in each of them.
Then I read Ask Georges Jeanty's Q&A and comments. I'm surprised that no one even suspects Spike...And not just because I'm a fan of Spike...but judging timeline's and the fact he isn't going to be in the end of the Angel series...one would think, hmmm? I'm not a big fan of the Angel comics at all...my brother read them though. He told me Spike isn't in them much, if at all. It has a new name too...Aftermath...It's like Spike is around then he goes off on his own while Angel has this whole new team...
Now it's said that Twilight is at least 6' well that could be misleading or Georges was commenting on the description as a whole...But that still brings me to Pike. I'm still confused by the shocked and emotional expressions on Buffy and the Scoobies faces...Why do I think it's quite possibly Pike...
I looked into Origins comic book and Pike is in it...And Buffy never says what happened to him...just that it was another story to tell...Makes me wonder why the hanging comments of missing characters? Was it because he was a part of the movie and in fact not important for future persual?
The reason I don't think it's a future Xander or Giles or quite possibly Harth...simple fact is as much hurt as they could do or change events...I don't see it happening so they could change future events. Maybe Xander...Giles no. He knows the consequences for doing that. And some of the things Twilight does is a bit odd for someone who has or is supposed to have future knowledge...I seriously think it's someone who has a big yen against magic and evil...although the way he goes about it is under the pretenses that he seems evil...when all he seems to be trying to do is to rid the world of magic and hellmouths...hmmm
Which is why I thought of Spike...but also lean towards quite possibly Pike.
When I saw Dawn...I was like what??? LOL. I really don't think it's Angel at all. Why? He kicked off with a new team and he seems a million light years from Buffy in his own comic series...Yet Illyria isn't around (not telling), and Spike has ventured off on his own. There is also a mention that more and more will come back to Buffy...So I guess we just wait and see?
I would really love to know when the hanging sentences or open ended topics will ever get answered...I read the Origins series comic and was like, "THAT'S IT????!!!!!" I really wanted to know what happened to Pike.
Then there was a Reunion comic between Angel and Buffy that was all completely talk...and the topic was evaded -- never answered. Why name the issue Reunion when it was all made up stories about the reunion...why not give the fans a straight forward answer? Or will it be one of those that when the time comes and they finally move on...never gets answered, but we fan fictionize it?
Guess we have to keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting...LOL.
Nmcil thanks for the reads! Interesting how SlayAlive spoke on how the romance in Season 8 was dead -- then to how Willow and Buffy were mother and father to the Slayers they essentially gave 'birth' to. Although, as I have read all the comics up-to-date...I disagree with that in depth analized concept.
There is so much 'romance' but tension that can be felt in the series so far...Actually I could sense it with Buffy and this 'Big Bad' too. Not the I want to end you tension...but a familiarity? Does that make sense? There are so many ways romance can be interpreted, but judging by what has concluded so far...There is quite amount of jealousy, realizations, bonding, confliction, hurt, and still a great deal of growing in each of them.
Then I read Ask Georges Jeanty's Q&A and comments. I'm surprised that no one even suspects Spike...And not just because I'm a fan of Spike...but judging timeline's and the fact he isn't going to be in the end of the Angel series...one would think, hmmm? I'm not a big fan of the Angel comics at all...my brother read them though. He told me Spike isn't in them much, if at all. It has a new name too...Aftermath...It's like Spike is around then he goes off on his own while Angel has this whole new team...
Now it's said that Twilight is at least 6' well that could be misleading or Georges was commenting on the description as a whole...But that still brings me to Pike. I'm still confused by the shocked and emotional expressions on Buffy and the Scoobies faces...Why do I think it's quite possibly Pike...
I looked into Origins comic book and Pike is in it...And Buffy never says what happened to him...just that it was another story to tell...Makes me wonder why the hanging comments of missing characters? Was it because he was a part of the movie and in fact not important for future persual?
The reason I don't think it's a future Xander or Giles or quite possibly Harth...simple fact is as much hurt as they could do or change events...I don't see it happening so they could change future events. Maybe Xander...Giles no. He knows the consequences for doing that. And some of the things Twilight does is a bit odd for someone who has or is supposed to have future knowledge...I seriously think it's someone who has a big yen against magic and evil...although the way he goes about it is under the pretenses that he seems evil...when all he seems to be trying to do is to rid the world of magic and hellmouths...hmmm
Which is why I thought of Spike...but also lean towards quite possibly Pike.
When I saw Dawn...I was like what??? LOL. I really don't think it's Angel at all. Why? He kicked off with a new team and he seems a million light years from Buffy in his own comic series...Yet Illyria isn't around (not telling), and Spike has ventured off on his own. There is also a mention that more and more will come back to Buffy...So I guess we just wait and see?
I would really love to know when the hanging sentences or open ended topics will ever get answered...I read the Origins series comic and was like, "THAT'S IT????!!!!!" I really wanted to know what happened to Pike.
Then there was a Reunion comic between Angel and Buffy that was all completely talk...and the topic was evaded -- never answered. Why name the issue Reunion when it was all made up stories about the reunion...why not give the fans a straight forward answer? Or will it be one of those that when the time comes and they finally move on...never gets answered, but we fan fictionize it?
Guess we have to keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting...LOL.
Dec 28 2009 10:24 pm #15Spikez_tart
I'm surprised that no one even suspects Spike - I don't think it can be Spike (or Angel either) because of copyright issues which is why no crossovers as well. I'm doubting Pike as well - Buffy might be surprised, but the rest of the Scoobies wouldn't because they never met Pike. I'm sure it will be irksome when we find out.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I cannot remember which interview that states Twilight is white, male - but we know that the writers have inserted what they call "red herrings" - The primary reason that I went with the Queen Elizabeth connection is that the Fray Time line, like the Elizabeth - Mary power play, has a clear splitting of The Slayers into two separate components and the split is one of "the now physical reality" of strength in Fray and the time-linear mental reality of Slayer Memory in Harth. Plus, we know that Joss Whedon is very interested in the psyche and inner dreamscape of his character. Ethan Rayne in the very early part of the series brings in the idea of mental and self-imposed realities - OZ and the entire Tibetan arc is about the shaping of our realities - the choices that Buffy, Willow, Faith, Giles, all of the prime characters from Sunnydale make. Xander and Dawn, from the Sunnydale originals are they only two that have reached out have seemed to find themselves and love - Buffy is still lost and lounging for this mystical reality she seems to want and need and Willow seemed to be following along with the "we can have a life" as if they did not already have a life. They are all in the realm of Eastern Religious and Philosophical system that has as a fundamental element of the World Perspective "all life is sorrowful" - Buffy's entire existence, IMVHO, has been so much connected to her strong need and desire to not have the sorrows that come with her Slayer Life - her Slayer Life is her reality.
Spike and Buffy in the context of Twilight (the coming of the night and dark and no sun - the shadow to her light, but also where both sun and dark combine to make twilight) that has a very good and plausible theme and connection to the series.
Riley was Buffy's Slayer Dream about making the sun go down and then Buffy goes right into the fire of Buffy-Riley Love - Spike however was always Riley's counterpart/Parallel and ultimately the Buffy-Spike relationship above all others and contrary to any random likes and wants regarding Buffy's Love Partner, is the one character who has ever reached and transformed into the Sun Symbolism. Buffy and Spike are the only two that have combined the moonlight and sunlight, both the vital elements of life and the cycle of the universal life force in our world;s reality.
RILEY: Don't worry. If I kiss you it'll make the sun go down.
(They kiss and the class watches. The classroom is empty when the camera zooms out from them.)
Spike being the potential Uber Crossover element as metaphor and connection would be very interesting - and Spike actually uses the very similar scythe to the one that Fray and Buffy use - that could be one of those "red herrings" that is mentioned, but I think it should be related if the writers put it in the comic series. If not, I would be disappointed that the writers would throw it in just as an element for obfuscation.
I still think that Twiglight should be a Major Power Player, a reflection of the dynamics of humanity that we saw with the CofW, The Slayers, Uber Demon Powers, and the normal humans Power Elites.
Excerpt from the Georges Jeanty Interview (see above link) - that he was sent only the 6 and 7 seasons would also help connect the theme of World Domination and Power Struggles - plus it also reflects the struggle of the inner demon/dreamscape theme that was the emphasis of Buffy-Spike, light/shadow metaphor theme of those seasons.
Bluebird: What is your favorite character to draw?
This question really has a lot of levels to it, but the short answer is Buffy. She was the first person I had to draw when I got the gig, and will probably be the last in this series. I will add that all of the men have been easier to draw than the women except for maybe Andrew, and all the Women have had different levels of difficulty. Dawn being the hardest.
Willow-Tree: Did you watch the show when it aired? Where you a fan?
That's the thing! I never caught an episode of Buffy before!
That's not true. I did watch some of the episode with Jon Ritter in it, but that was only because I was a Jon Ritter fan. So I missed the whole Buffy saga as it was airing in prime time. When I got the job Dark Horse was nice enough to send me seasons 6 and 7 on DVD and I caught up rather quickly. From there I became such a fan that I went out and got Seasons 1 through 5 on my own and breezed right through them!
charmingslayer: Can you give us any small tidbits on what's to come?
I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you guys! Just know that this ride is not over yet, and if you've been enjoying it this far you're gonna either love or hate how it all ends. I can tell you to check out Dark Horse on line and see advance previews of the issues when you need a quick fix.
One thing that I have learned from reading these comics seasons is HOW MUCH I love being able to access film and digital vs print - the world of reading is really changing. Having that long time wait period and not being able to easily access the original source material like we can with the dvd episodes makes such a huge difference.
Has anyone been over to the site that is suppose to have the entire comics online for reading? think it is a Russian fan that runs it -
Spike and Buffy in the context of Twilight (the coming of the night and dark and no sun - the shadow to her light, but also where both sun and dark combine to make twilight) that has a very good and plausible theme and connection to the series.
Riley was Buffy's Slayer Dream about making the sun go down and then Buffy goes right into the fire of Buffy-Riley Love - Spike however was always Riley's counterpart/Parallel and ultimately the Buffy-Spike relationship above all others and contrary to any random likes and wants regarding Buffy's Love Partner, is the one character who has ever reached and transformed into the Sun Symbolism. Buffy and Spike are the only two that have combined the moonlight and sunlight, both the vital elements of life and the cycle of the universal life force in our world;s reality.
RILEY: Don't worry. If I kiss you it'll make the sun go down.
(They kiss and the class watches. The classroom is empty when the camera zooms out from them.)
Spike being the potential Uber Crossover element as metaphor and connection would be very interesting - and Spike actually uses the very similar scythe to the one that Fray and Buffy use - that could be one of those "red herrings" that is mentioned, but I think it should be related if the writers put it in the comic series. If not, I would be disappointed that the writers would throw it in just as an element for obfuscation.
I still think that Twiglight should be a Major Power Player, a reflection of the dynamics of humanity that we saw with the CofW, The Slayers, Uber Demon Powers, and the normal humans Power Elites.
Excerpt from the Georges Jeanty Interview (see above link) - that he was sent only the 6 and 7 seasons would also help connect the theme of World Domination and Power Struggles - plus it also reflects the struggle of the inner demon/dreamscape theme that was the emphasis of Buffy-Spike, light/shadow metaphor theme of those seasons.
Bluebird: What is your favorite character to draw?
This question really has a lot of levels to it, but the short answer is Buffy. She was the first person I had to draw when I got the gig, and will probably be the last in this series. I will add that all of the men have been easier to draw than the women except for maybe Andrew, and all the Women have had different levels of difficulty. Dawn being the hardest.
Willow-Tree: Did you watch the show when it aired? Where you a fan?
That's the thing! I never caught an episode of Buffy before!
That's not true. I did watch some of the episode with Jon Ritter in it, but that was only because I was a Jon Ritter fan. So I missed the whole Buffy saga as it was airing in prime time. When I got the job Dark Horse was nice enough to send me seasons 6 and 7 on DVD and I caught up rather quickly. From there I became such a fan that I went out and got Seasons 1 through 5 on my own and breezed right through them!
charmingslayer: Can you give us any small tidbits on what's to come?
I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you guys! Just know that this ride is not over yet, and if you've been enjoying it this far you're gonna either love or hate how it all ends. I can tell you to check out Dark Horse on line and see advance previews of the issues when you need a quick fix.
One thing that I have learned from reading these comics seasons is HOW MUCH I love being able to access film and digital vs print - the world of reading is really changing. Having that long time wait period and not being able to easily access the original source material like we can with the dvd episodes makes such a huge difference.
Has anyone been over to the site that is suppose to have the entire comics online for reading? think it is a Russian fan that runs it -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 30 2009 06:35 pm #17BandS
Guest
Nmcil - I have (as well as my brother) almost all issues digital wise (scanned).
I get what you are saying about the symbolism...interesting view point there.
I'm sorry if I spoiled anyone, but as it stands Spikez_tart, Spike is out in the Angel series...
As far as copyrite or ownership...I believe I read from Scott Allie in Buffy Season 8 (in the Q&A's) that they are bringing the others back...but slowly.
Which, come to think of it, makes sort of sense? Full Circle almost? They all started on Buffy, one would think they would quite possibly end on Buffy. Seriously take a look...at Aftermath...Spike is on his way out...Maybe they will pick up his own comics or could he be...Twilight? It would definitely answer why the shocked and surprised looks from Buffy and the Scoobs...but then it could be someone else...I'm not sure about the future thing...but then again in some of the books (and comics) they use this very thing...so anything is possible...I just don't see how that would work when Twilight is after no magic and closing the Hellmouths...How the heck would Twilight get back...would he just fade? So many questions...
I get what you are saying about the symbolism...interesting view point there.
I'm sorry if I spoiled anyone, but as it stands Spikez_tart, Spike is out in the Angel series...
As far as copyrite or ownership...I believe I read from Scott Allie in Buffy Season 8 (in the Q&A's) that they are bringing the others back...but slowly.
Which, come to think of it, makes sort of sense? Full Circle almost? They all started on Buffy, one would think they would quite possibly end on Buffy. Seriously take a look...at Aftermath...Spike is on his way out...Maybe they will pick up his own comics or could he be...Twilight? It would definitely answer why the shocked and surprised looks from Buffy and the Scoobs...but then it could be someone else...I'm not sure about the future thing...but then again in some of the books (and comics) they use this very thing...so anything is possible...I just don't see how that would work when Twilight is after no magic and closing the Hellmouths...How the heck would Twilight get back...would he just fade? So many questions...
I wish that I had been a heck of a lot more clever when I started reading the comic book season - of course I should have scanned my issues as they came out - stupid, stupid, me for not having done so.
Anyway that you could share your files? Or maybe pick some of the pivotal issues as you see them?
As far as Spike being out of the current Angel series, the latest issues all have him still connecting with Angel and as part of AI Team -
But I actually am getting more and more interested to see if Joss Whedon would bring Spike back as Twiglight - it would make a very poignant re-connect after the way the character ended in "Chosen" - and the metaphor of the newly risen and self-created man. But if the latest Scot Allie interview, which I just took a very quick look at and will get back to later, The Slayer mythos and its expansion from the series is something that will be part of the series. If by chance Spike is brought in as this Twiglight character I think it would be only if he would fit into the history of the Slayer and Slayer Line
Anyway that you could share your files? Or maybe pick some of the pivotal issues as you see them?
As far as Spike being out of the current Angel series, the latest issues all have him still connecting with Angel and as part of AI Team -
But I actually am getting more and more interested to see if Joss Whedon would bring Spike back as Twiglight - it would make a very poignant re-connect after the way the character ended in "Chosen" - and the metaphor of the newly risen and self-created man. But if the latest Scot Allie interview, which I just took a very quick look at and will get back to later, The Slayer mythos and its expansion from the series is something that will be part of the series. If by chance Spike is brought in as this Twiglight character I think it would be only if he would fit into the history of the Slayer and Slayer Line
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 31 2009 01:24 am #19coalitiongirl
If anyone's looking for the comics, I've been able to find almost all of them downloadable for free on 4shared.com. Hope that helps.
 Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
 |
| I have no idea if Twilight is Spike but I truly doubt it. SPIKE is coming, just making sure I have a big head start on scripts, so there's no lag. My day job currently consists of writing two screenplays for Universal, so it's hard to find time to get it all in. But don't worry, it's coming. And as long as I have stories to tell, and IDW is happy with the sales numbers and quality of the book, we will go beyond 10 issues. _________________ |
|
this is a post at IDW forums from Brian Lynch
also from same forum:
A scoop from Brian Lynch about the Spike monthly.
http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=angelseason6&action=display&thread=9959&page=15
| Quote: |
| Scoop! SPIKE's first story will be entitled "Alone". 2 issues, possibly 3. SPIKE'S second story will be entitled "Together Now". 3 issues, possibly 4. Put them together and they will form arc # 1 of Spike's tale: "Alone Together Now". Spike Comic has made the Best Seller NYT list - they would be foolish to lose the devoted Spike Fans - we just keep shelling out our money for our favorite vamp. My speculation about Spike possibly brought in as a crossover as Twiglight is really more wishful thinking ala Fan Fiction - These two companies I am sure want to protect their money and fan base. What advantage would there be for IDW to give over the Big Profits that would go with Spike as Twiglight to DARK HORSE? Even a Spike from a different dimension is still going to create business problems for IDM. Spike is going to have his own new story from Brian Lynch that will come out soon - |
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 31 2009 12:01 pm #21Old fan.
Guest
Sorry but if you've been keeping up with the IDW comics then you would notice that Spike is still being treated as second fiddle.
Awesome he's finally getting his own series, except it will mostly take place in LA or Vegas, to keep him close enough to Angel ofcourse. This is exactly what i feared would happen when Spike went over to Angel season5, they got stuck at the hip, on the show it was ok. Spike's devil may care attitude was intact and he helped when he wanted to.
I remember Spike saying somewhere on the show that he hated LA, can't quite remember where tough.
And what's even more funny is that he's now even playing second fiddle to Angel's brat. Wow tallk about low self-esteem, not even Faith the bad slayer stooped that low.
I really do hope that Twilight turns out to be Spike and it could be future Spike if you've been keeping up with the story. Do i think darkhorse can do better then idw, perhaps not looking at their track recond of Spike, but they do have Joss Whedon. And Joss can use whatever character he wants, this includes Spike or Angel.
Most people don't think Twilight is Spike because they think he's too stupid,impulsive,weak to pull it off.
Just forget about Spike's whole journey so far and the evolution he's been shown to go trough.
Another thing about idw, they recently had interviews with the amazingly biased Buffyfest(the link was on whedonesque), which made me fear for Spike's future. One male(the person currently writing the main-angel series) was a totally bangel fanboy and agreed with the interviewer that there was no way Spuffy could ever happen again after the seeing-red incident and he was also totally open for his dreamproject of a buffy/angel crossover, not in small part because of his love for the pairing.
The second female(i believe is the editor) totally loves Spike, as long as he's not with Buffy.
So yeah, screw that. I have zero intrest in future Spike usage in idw comics.
I doubt Lynch will do any better, he stated his true opinion a long time ago, pretty simelear to the editor's opinion.
And i doubt we'll get anythin new in his upcoming Spike series. He pretty much writes Spike as a one trick pony. Spike as pansy-ass/inlove with Illyria(?what?),hero-worship of Angel, zero ambition.
Thanks but no thanks.
I used think there were huge differences between the Twilight saga and Buffy or Angel.
Now, not so much anymore.
Idw has done an amazing job of making Angel into a messiah figure that can do no wrong,is pretty much undefeatable and when this asshole makes huge mistakes, they still find a way turn it around to make him look good.
Thanks idw, thanks for destroying the Spike character.
Awesome he's finally getting his own series, except it will mostly take place in LA or Vegas, to keep him close enough to Angel ofcourse. This is exactly what i feared would happen when Spike went over to Angel season5, they got stuck at the hip, on the show it was ok. Spike's devil may care attitude was intact and he helped when he wanted to.
I remember Spike saying somewhere on the show that he hated LA, can't quite remember where tough.
And what's even more funny is that he's now even playing second fiddle to Angel's brat. Wow tallk about low self-esteem, not even Faith the bad slayer stooped that low.
I really do hope that Twilight turns out to be Spike and it could be future Spike if you've been keeping up with the story. Do i think darkhorse can do better then idw, perhaps not looking at their track recond of Spike, but they do have Joss Whedon. And Joss can use whatever character he wants, this includes Spike or Angel.
Most people don't think Twilight is Spike because they think he's too stupid,impulsive,weak to pull it off.
Just forget about Spike's whole journey so far and the evolution he's been shown to go trough.
Another thing about idw, they recently had interviews with the amazingly biased Buffyfest(the link was on whedonesque), which made me fear for Spike's future. One male(the person currently writing the main-angel series) was a totally bangel fanboy and agreed with the interviewer that there was no way Spuffy could ever happen again after the seeing-red incident and he was also totally open for his dreamproject of a buffy/angel crossover, not in small part because of his love for the pairing.
The second female(i believe is the editor) totally loves Spike, as long as he's not with Buffy.
So yeah, screw that. I have zero intrest in future Spike usage in idw comics.
I doubt Lynch will do any better, he stated his true opinion a long time ago, pretty simelear to the editor's opinion.
And i doubt we'll get anythin new in his upcoming Spike series. He pretty much writes Spike as a one trick pony. Spike as pansy-ass/inlove with Illyria(?what?),hero-worship of Angel, zero ambition.
Thanks but no thanks.
I used think there were huge differences between the Twilight saga and Buffy or Angel.
Now, not so much anymore.
Idw has done an amazing job of making Angel into a messiah figure that can do no wrong,is pretty much undefeatable and when this asshole makes huge mistakes, they still find a way turn it around to make him look good.
Thanks idw, thanks for destroying the Spike character.
Dec 31 2009 07:01 pm #22BandS
Guest
~ Old Fan ---
I totally sympathize with your viewpoint...and yes, I'm completely beyond and forever will always be a Spike lover. I agree with your point about them using Spike as gee another lap dog to Angel and company...
I could never get, and will never understand, why the big praise with Angel? He has a CURSE! How does that make him special? And first off, that soul of his as a human? What good was it? Sure as a human he made with the evil of drinking and god knows what else...(yes I think drinking is evil...it is to me lol)...I'm actually assuming he was worse judging what they showed us, and what he became.
I still have a hard time with this soul business...Because damn even with souls there are humans who have done just as worse...
Getting off topic...anywhoo...
I think it would make a great Full Circle if Twilight is Spike...but knowing both companies and Joss...it won't be. This is why I love fan fiction...and not so much the writers who started the show...Yes they gave us something to always remember...but they also paved the way for the fans to broaden their imaginations...
I have this feeling that its going to be someone so far fetched, and that is why they are all so shocked. If it's future Xander--then better him than Angel....Sorry, so not an Angel fan. Especially after (and I'm wishing I was at my home computer) reading Enigmaticblue's essay on the comparison between Spike and Angel, who is cooler...or something like that, lol. I found it on Buffytube.
I do completely agree with you...though in some ways I also got the sense that Spike was still much an outsider in the Aftermath...I still don't think whatever they do will be enough for Spike fans...and sorry I am NOT in no way shape or form, a Spangel fan. EVEN as friendship...I thought it was taking away from everything that was started...to them working together??? It was odd...especially knowing how much Spike and Angel hate each other...and many will say hey that's not how it went down...
But look at the facts...look at their histories...look at all those plot holes...and guess what? It will always to Bangel fans, at least, be said that some viewpoints are incorrect...It sucks, but then this world would be a rather dull place if we all agreed...LOL.
I totally sympathize with your viewpoint...and yes, I'm completely beyond and forever will always be a Spike lover. I agree with your point about them using Spike as gee another lap dog to Angel and company...
I could never get, and will never understand, why the big praise with Angel? He has a CURSE! How does that make him special? And first off, that soul of his as a human? What good was it? Sure as a human he made with the evil of drinking and god knows what else...(yes I think drinking is evil...it is to me lol)...I'm actually assuming he was worse judging what they showed us, and what he became.
I still have a hard time with this soul business...Because damn even with souls there are humans who have done just as worse...
Getting off topic...anywhoo...
I think it would make a great Full Circle if Twilight is Spike...but knowing both companies and Joss...it won't be. This is why I love fan fiction...and not so much the writers who started the show...Yes they gave us something to always remember...but they also paved the way for the fans to broaden their imaginations...
I have this feeling that its going to be someone so far fetched, and that is why they are all so shocked. If it's future Xander--then better him than Angel....Sorry, so not an Angel fan. Especially after (and I'm wishing I was at my home computer) reading Enigmaticblue's essay on the comparison between Spike and Angel, who is cooler...or something like that, lol. I found it on Buffytube.
I do completely agree with you...though in some ways I also got the sense that Spike was still much an outsider in the Aftermath...I still don't think whatever they do will be enough for Spike fans...and sorry I am NOT in no way shape or form, a Spangel fan. EVEN as friendship...I thought it was taking away from everything that was started...to them working together??? It was odd...especially knowing how much Spike and Angel hate each other...and many will say hey that's not how it went down...
But look at the facts...look at their histories...look at all those plot holes...and guess what? It will always to Bangel fans, at least, be said that some viewpoints are incorrect...It sucks, but then this world would be a rather dull place if we all agreed...LOL.
Dec 31 2009 09:46 pm #23~ Ami
Guest
I think bringing Spike to Angel was a mistake too, Old Fan. They didn't know what to do with him, and just made him Angel's second banana. It's like...hey look Angel is the big hero and here's Spike just following in his footsteps and never measuring up. I am not an Angel fan, and the writers of that show totally ignored Spike's history and journey, cause Angel had to be the HERO! It pissed me off, but we did get to see James for one more year so at least there was that. I never thought I'd say this but sometimes I wish Spike had stayed dead in the crater, maybe then he could have been resurrected in another way and he could have continued his journey in the Buffyverse not the Angelverse, cause I really don't like the things I hear regarding his story. I'd rather he stayed Buffy's sidekick than Angel's.
I stopped reading both comics after a couple of issues...didn't like them and hated that they were so OOC IMO. And now what? Spike's in love with Illyria and hero worshipping Angel? WTF? If that's the case I'm glad I stopped reading. I agree, from what I've seen in interviews the writers are either big Bangel fanboy wussies or don't think Spike and Buffy belong together, but somehow Angel is perfectly OK ,after years of rape and murder as Angelus just cause for 8 or so years he did good. They totally disregard that Spike FOUGHT for his soul cause he knew what he did to Buffy was wrong. What's so great about a cursed soul that a band of gypsies thrust on you cause you murdered and raped one of their daughters? It really makes me crazy mad. 
Joss should have hired more neutral writers, not all these Angel worshipping fanboy gits that think he's GOD and can do NO WRONG!! And feel Spike is some stupid jerk with no brains or purpose, except to make their golden boy look so much better by comparison.UGH!
Loved the comparison to the Twilight saga Old Fan...yup Angel is now like Edward. PERFECT IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE AND WE MUST ALL WORSHIP AT HIS FEET, CAUSE HE'S ANGEL AND CAN DO NO WRONG! HE'S OUR MESSIAH AND WE ARE ALL STUPID IF WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT AND PREFER SPIKE. Well, screw that! I'll never think that and will not spend one cent on any of their stupid, biased comic books. Sorry I know alot of people like them. this is my rant. I agree...IDW has destroyed Spike from what I've heard.
And a big WORD! to you Bands! ITA with all you said, i don't even like Spangel friendship. And Bangels all think that their viewpoint is the only correct one. Bangels are all pretty much Fascists, Theirs is the only correct way. So yeah I know I ranted . I'm not too fond of Joss' decisions regarding Spike. It seems we Spike fans always get the fuzzy end of the lollipop.
Which totally sucks.
Damn couldn't Joss have found at least ONE Spuffy lover when he was hiring writers? God forbid...the world would probably end if that were to happen.
lol
Happy 2010 all!!!
Jan 01 2010 11:46 am #24BandS
Guest
Happy, very happy, New Year to all!!!!!
Ditto Ami! I absolutely loved your rant, as well as, Old Fans rant. AND...not because we agree...because of the valid points that are coming from what our eyeballs saw in living color -- whether it was dvds or back then -- of the entire series!
I have run across even Spuffy fans who love all the characters and even ship for other pairings...And quite honestly I would ship for two other girls with Spike other than Buffy...GASP...I know the horror, right???? Actually, no. I have, and will say, had they went more in depth with either Anya or even Tara...I would have shipped for them...and that's whether they were friends or more...It doesn't matter which.
With that said...I am more of a Spuffy fan though. I can deal with these ships: Spanya, or Spara, God...even Spawn...any other--I'm not for it at all. I ran across a story, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, it's rather early I should say, lol -- Bitchee I believe...I will look that up - wrote a story (unfinished I believe on Elysian Fields) that had a bit of Spaith in it...I seriously wigged...I don't know...and no it's not perfect either...but I have this amazing ability to play match maker (in my head or with actual people) and I always figure out in movies who gets the ending credits of happiness together...And yes some are so obvious, but some aren't. However, the only time I did play match maker in reality ended up very happily married with kids later in life...Soooo off the point...lol
I knew right from the start, even with Spike so darn evil, what an amazing match Spuffy would make. Sure I wanted it, and if it didn't happen--I could always dream right? Then the writers destroyed my own fantasy...they twisted the fantasy I built for Spuffy. This is also why I am anti-Buffy as a role model. She isn't. I know, I know, she isn't perfect. Except, I see a role model quite differently than say the person next to me does. It's also why I am so dead set against 'Seeing Red' as attempted or even intent to Rape. I actually agree with a poster on Imdb. If he wanted to hurt her...he's a VAMPIRE! Bite her then! Have her submit...He didn't do that...So went off topic...I so need to stay away from that topic (Good thing my brother and I agree on this)...
I love how you both look at Twilight and do a comparison with Buffy. It's funny vampires have been around forever, am I right is saying this? And now, it seems they are so much more than they were say 30 or so years ago...
I must have been cleaning my bathroom...and I get these ideas in my head that I just can't believe how far we have come...I think I was also thinking of a movie too featuring Kathy Bates...We have really moved up in the world with plumbing and electricity...god even vehicles. We are getting more 'aware' of how we do these face lifts to older ways (which, in away, were probably better for the world if you think about it) and constantly trying to improve them. I mean look at cars...(yes I know tangent...getting to point LOL...I love to babble)
Then I looked at the book that was sitting on my table nearly half read (by LJ Smith Supernatural book), thinking how far we came when these books were first out. LJ Smith wrote The Vampire Diaries which airs on TV. I am not a big fan of it, but I watch it. The acting is lame. It's getting marginally better, but not enough for me, that is.
She wrote these books in the late 80's into the 90's....What I'm reading are re-prints. I loved her series Night World....Sort of wishing those were a series instead, but anyway...
It's weird how writers then of the supernatural sense, weren't as recognized as say a sparkly vampire or wizard is. I guess in some off dimension it's different. There are some things I wish that didn't or did happen too.
So I come to your comment Ami...I loved that Spike (JM) was still on tv even though it was on Angel. I didn't agree with that. What they should have done...and would have opened a major door for JM to be on his own show then...They should have gone right into doing a Spike movie...or even his own show...Like instead of that crazy idea of him ghosting about....Why not life after burning...
There are so many ways they could have gone with Spike...and ok it may or may not have been Spuffy...but it would be Spike!
I read everything on IDW as NMCL pointed out. I'm not impressed actually. I read that they are ending with Bangel...I don't get it.
I understand first loves...redeeming yourself...and well anything that applies to this topic...I never understood Bangel. I was sickened by it. I get Spike's past. He never hid from it. Angel does. And what's more you still get that feel in the comics that he blames Angelus and not himself as a whole...This is why I don't understand soul versus no soul. Rip apart our souls I am going with a guess...we are feral, harsh, almost cave-like beings? Something to that effect...lol. Ok I can't think now lol...
When I read what Mr Lynch had to say...I was a bit surprised actually. And, if you think about it, the Spike comics have been put off, and put off, because of this guys schedule. So it appears Spike belongs to IDW but Lynch writes it? Anyway...they say by February...we shall see because from what I read they were suppose to be here last year...and if you go back further...even then too.
The comics to me are so hard to read and understand. I just read the one shot Willow comic and had to go back to the Season 8 comic and tried to understand it...I don't want to spoil anyone but damn it comics are hard to analyze to death...they just seem to be missing important parts that need to be said. And it feels like a soap opera? Does anyone else feel that way...I feel like the same thing happened with very few things occurring except just a tad differently...
Which makes me think Nmcil might be correct in her assumption of it being Harth? I don't read Fray...and it looks like they stopped for a bit...but what if something happened to cause the death to Fray and Harth actually resents it...He comes back...and tries to close all potential problems from happening...thus destroying his future...
Anyone have comments about Harth and this love that he feels for the Slayers in his memories? It sounds like Harth dreams of The First Slayer or the spirit force that she was created from.
Might be something to think about.......Dreams of Slayers and his love for them? I'm intrigued by this question actually....If they do that...and as long as Spike's comics move in a direction worth reading...then I will buy that...Very interesting question NMCIL...Sorry I overlooked that...I wonder what the dynamics were for that and how he kept them when he was changed...I need to read Fray a tad bit closer. I know Fray got the Slayer strength and he got the prophetic dreams and memories of past Slayers...I would have loved if television went more into depth on Slayers rather than focused on always fighting and impending doom...History of them would have been good...rather than ok this is the history that's it...you're a Slayer go kill....
Me thinks Nmcil has me convinced!!!!!! LOL...It actually makes the most sense.
Again...Happy 2010 to all!!!!!
Ditto Ami! I absolutely loved your rant, as well as, Old Fans rant. AND...not because we agree...because of the valid points that are coming from what our eyeballs saw in living color -- whether it was dvds or back then -- of the entire series!
I have run across even Spuffy fans who love all the characters and even ship for other pairings...And quite honestly I would ship for two other girls with Spike other than Buffy...GASP...I know the horror, right???? Actually, no. I have, and will say, had they went more in depth with either Anya or even Tara...I would have shipped for them...and that's whether they were friends or more...It doesn't matter which.
With that said...I am more of a Spuffy fan though. I can deal with these ships: Spanya, or Spara, God...even Spawn...any other--I'm not for it at all. I ran across a story, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, it's rather early I should say, lol -- Bitchee I believe...I will look that up - wrote a story (unfinished I believe on Elysian Fields) that had a bit of Spaith in it...I seriously wigged...I don't know...and no it's not perfect either...but I have this amazing ability to play match maker (in my head or with actual people) and I always figure out in movies who gets the ending credits of happiness together...And yes some are so obvious, but some aren't. However, the only time I did play match maker in reality ended up very happily married with kids later in life...Soooo off the point...lol
I knew right from the start, even with Spike so darn evil, what an amazing match Spuffy would make. Sure I wanted it, and if it didn't happen--I could always dream right? Then the writers destroyed my own fantasy...they twisted the fantasy I built for Spuffy. This is also why I am anti-Buffy as a role model. She isn't. I know, I know, she isn't perfect. Except, I see a role model quite differently than say the person next to me does. It's also why I am so dead set against 'Seeing Red' as attempted or even intent to Rape. I actually agree with a poster on Imdb. If he wanted to hurt her...he's a VAMPIRE! Bite her then! Have her submit...He didn't do that...So went off topic...I so need to stay away from that topic (Good thing my brother and I agree on this)...
I love how you both look at Twilight and do a comparison with Buffy. It's funny vampires have been around forever, am I right is saying this? And now, it seems they are so much more than they were say 30 or so years ago...
I must have been cleaning my bathroom...and I get these ideas in my head that I just can't believe how far we have come...I think I was also thinking of a movie too featuring Kathy Bates...We have really moved up in the world with plumbing and electricity...god even vehicles. We are getting more 'aware' of how we do these face lifts to older ways (which, in away, were probably better for the world if you think about it) and constantly trying to improve them. I mean look at cars...(yes I know tangent...getting to point LOL...I love to babble)
Then I looked at the book that was sitting on my table nearly half read (by LJ Smith Supernatural book), thinking how far we came when these books were first out. LJ Smith wrote The Vampire Diaries which airs on TV. I am not a big fan of it, but I watch it. The acting is lame. It's getting marginally better, but not enough for me, that is.
She wrote these books in the late 80's into the 90's....What I'm reading are re-prints. I loved her series Night World....Sort of wishing those were a series instead, but anyway...
It's weird how writers then of the supernatural sense, weren't as recognized as say a sparkly vampire or wizard is. I guess in some off dimension it's different. There are some things I wish that didn't or did happen too.
So I come to your comment Ami...I loved that Spike (JM) was still on tv even though it was on Angel. I didn't agree with that. What they should have done...and would have opened a major door for JM to be on his own show then...They should have gone right into doing a Spike movie...or even his own show...Like instead of that crazy idea of him ghosting about....Why not life after burning...
There are so many ways they could have gone with Spike...and ok it may or may not have been Spuffy...but it would be Spike!
I read everything on IDW as NMCL pointed out. I'm not impressed actually. I read that they are ending with Bangel...I don't get it.
I understand first loves...redeeming yourself...and well anything that applies to this topic...I never understood Bangel. I was sickened by it. I get Spike's past. He never hid from it. Angel does. And what's more you still get that feel in the comics that he blames Angelus and not himself as a whole...This is why I don't understand soul versus no soul. Rip apart our souls I am going with a guess...we are feral, harsh, almost cave-like beings? Something to that effect...lol. Ok I can't think now lol...
When I read what Mr Lynch had to say...I was a bit surprised actually. And, if you think about it, the Spike comics have been put off, and put off, because of this guys schedule. So it appears Spike belongs to IDW but Lynch writes it? Anyway...they say by February...we shall see because from what I read they were suppose to be here last year...and if you go back further...even then too.
The comics to me are so hard to read and understand. I just read the one shot Willow comic and had to go back to the Season 8 comic and tried to understand it...I don't want to spoil anyone but damn it comics are hard to analyze to death...they just seem to be missing important parts that need to be said. And it feels like a soap opera? Does anyone else feel that way...I feel like the same thing happened with very few things occurring except just a tad differently...
Which makes me think Nmcil might be correct in her assumption of it being Harth? I don't read Fray...and it looks like they stopped for a bit...but what if something happened to cause the death to Fray and Harth actually resents it...He comes back...and tries to close all potential problems from happening...thus destroying his future...
Anyone have comments about Harth and this love that he feels for the Slayers in his memories? It sounds like Harth dreams of The First Slayer or the spirit force that she was created from.
Might be something to think about.......Dreams of Slayers and his love for them? I'm intrigued by this question actually....If they do that...and as long as Spike's comics move in a direction worth reading...then I will buy that...Very interesting question NMCIL...Sorry I overlooked that...I wonder what the dynamics were for that and how he kept them when he was changed...I need to read Fray a tad bit closer. I know Fray got the Slayer strength and he got the prophetic dreams and memories of past Slayers...I would have loved if television went more into depth on Slayers rather than focused on always fighting and impending doom...History of them would have been good...rather than ok this is the history that's it...you're a Slayer go kill....
Me thinks Nmcil has me convinced!!!!!! LOL...It actually makes the most sense.
Again...Happy 2010 to all!!!!!
Jan 01 2010 12:00 pm #25BandS
Guest
Errr I really should find my password lol...I can't edit darn it! What I meant to say in the 5th paragraph up at the end...Thus destroying what could have been his future...
Now I feel better lol...happy New years I'm finally off to bed...guess this is what I get for falling asleep at 7 and waking up at 11:30 at night...LOL
Now I feel better lol...happy New years I'm finally off to bed...guess this is what I get for falling asleep at 7 and waking up at 11:30 at night...LOL
Jan 01 2010 05:19 pm #26coalitiongirl
What they should have done...and would have opened a major door for JM to be on his own show then...They should have gone right into doing a Spike movie...or even his own show...
What's so great about Spike, why they could keep him going on and on all the way through the end of Angel, is that he's such an incredible supporting character. Like the Guest who wrote that said, it's easy to see him with any of the characters, because he has this awesome chemistry with everyone. (I actually realized a few days ago that even his name works with that- Spuffy and Spaith and Spanya sound a lot better than [Ruffy?] or [Fangel?] or [Xanya?]) But on his own show? Personally, I lump him and Anya together in that sense, because they're both excellent foils, but on their own, they wouldn't be as effective. For example, Spike's slavish devotion to anyone he loves would make him a weak lead.
So that's why it annoys me so much that they've shoved him into his own little series where he really CAN'T be the amazing character he's been. His beauty is in how he reflects off the main character, whether it's Buffy or Angel. The whole Season 8 makes me sick to my stomach- how did Buffy go from spending a year basically shutting herself off from everyone but the vampire in the basement to basically forgetting he existed? The only shots we've seen of Buffy and Spike together in comic form also include Angel. I'm a Spangel fan, but I can't stomach it if Buffy's also around and NOT with Spike. Oh, and that scene that almost had XANDER and Buffy together? I was physically ill at that.
I don't know why the writers favor the pedophile vampire who saw a girl sucking a lollipop at fifteen and decided he was in love to the man who gave up everything he was to be the one for her. I don't know why they can get over Angelus but not what DIDN'T happen in Seeing Red. I don't know why they can't just stop milking us Spuffy fans for more by delaying the Spuffy reunion and then [probably] making sure that the two of them never get together. But I've quit. (Well, I quit after Satsu- what, they couldn't destroy the "sacred Bangel relationship" by giving her a new man, so they switch genders and have her do the using thing again?) I read the summaries to keep updated, but I refuse to buy another comic that doesn't feature Spike. I'll probably be waiting a long, long time...
</rant
>
What's so great about Spike, why they could keep him going on and on all the way through the end of Angel, is that he's such an incredible supporting character. Like the Guest who wrote that said, it's easy to see him with any of the characters, because he has this awesome chemistry with everyone. (I actually realized a few days ago that even his name works with that- Spuffy and Spaith and Spanya sound a lot better than [Ruffy?] or [Fangel?] or [Xanya?]) But on his own show? Personally, I lump him and Anya together in that sense, because they're both excellent foils, but on their own, they wouldn't be as effective. For example, Spike's slavish devotion to anyone he loves would make him a weak lead.
So that's why it annoys me so much that they've shoved him into his own little series where he really CAN'T be the amazing character he's been. His beauty is in how he reflects off the main character, whether it's Buffy or Angel. The whole Season 8 makes me sick to my stomach- how did Buffy go from spending a year basically shutting herself off from everyone but the vampire in the basement to basically forgetting he existed? The only shots we've seen of Buffy and Spike together in comic form also include Angel. I'm a Spangel fan, but I can't stomach it if Buffy's also around and NOT with Spike. Oh, and that scene that almost had XANDER and Buffy together? I was physically ill at that.
I don't know why the writers favor the pedophile vampire who saw a girl sucking a lollipop at fifteen and decided he was in love to the man who gave up everything he was to be the one for her. I don't know why they can get over Angelus but not what DIDN'T happen in Seeing Red. I don't know why they can't just stop milking us Spuffy fans for more by delaying the Spuffy reunion and then [probably] making sure that the two of them never get together. But I've quit. (Well, I quit after Satsu- what, they couldn't destroy the "sacred Bangel relationship" by giving her a new man, so they switch genders and have her do the using thing again?) I read the summaries to keep updated, but I refuse to buy another comic that doesn't feature Spike. I'll probably be waiting a long, long time...
</rant
>Jan 01 2010 06:30 pm #27slaymesoftly
Moderator
I don't know why the writers favor the pedophile vampire who saw a girl sucking a lollipop at fifteen and decided he was in love to the man who gave up everything he was to be the one for her. I don't know why they can get over Angelus but not what DIDN'T happen in Seeing Red.
Excellent points coalitiongirl! I don't know when I've seen the differences put so succinctly and so well. You've summed it right up.
Excellent points coalitiongirl! I don't know when I've seen the differences put so succinctly and so well. You've summed it right up.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jan 01 2010 10:21 pm #28~ Ami
Guest
Totally agree with your rant coalitiongirl. I quit way before the Satsu story, I just couldn't stand it any more.And I also will not spend another dime on comics that not only don't feature Spike, but act like he doesn't exist and his sacrifice meant nothing to Buffy or anyone else. Batsu was bad enough but Bander is even worse. YUCK! LOL at "sacred Bangel relationship".
And the whole Bangel/Angel thing all the writers seem to love just annoy me no end. Let's see...Angelus was a horrible, vicious vamp for more than 100 yrs,got cursed with a soul around 1899 cause of something disgusting and horrible, then spends about 2 more yrs. hanging with the Fang Four til Darla throws his ass out for having a soul, then does nothing good til WW2 in the sub, then is found by Whistler in NY hanging in the sewers eating rats,about 1997 or so(still doing absolutely nothing from what they showed us) then goes to LA with Whistler and is shown 15 yr old Buffy suckin on the lolly (gee, symbolism much) and is so smitten that he decides to help Buffy (still don't know why he thinks she's his reward, but I digress...) and we all know what happens next , including turning back to Angelus.. Spike is a vicious vamp also for about 120 yrs,( but never as bad as Angelus so we're told) comes to SunnyD and gets his ass kicked by Buffy but helps her anyway to defeat Angelus. then returns and gets chipped (coulda still done lots of evil BTW) and then falls for Buffy and helps with her sis and tries to help B after she came back...then "Seeing Red" occurs and he goes to get his soul( all this in 3 yrs) comes back insane and dies at the Hellmouth, sacraficing himself for Buffy and the world, but he somehow he is NEVER good enough for Buffy, is always LESS than Angel.WHY??? I've never understood that. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to that. Spike's transformation took him about 4 yrs. Angel's took about 90 or so if we go by the timeline they showed us. But yet Angel is forgiven all and is still the only one that can get the Shanshu, if what I've read about the Angel comics is true.(which he signed away btw)And he thinks that once he's human he'll get Buffy no matter what. And never mind the fight with the Senior Partners, that he started, and sending LA to Hell. ( or is that forgotten too? I'm not sure..) So I ask again why is he the deserving one while Spike is the red haired step-child? *rant over, feel better now*
So yeah, stopped reading all the comics.I hate the way Spike is treated so they won't get any more money from me. My way of protesting I guess.
Jan 01 2010 11:10 pm #29BandS
Guest
Coalitiongirl...I must be way tired...Cuz at first I thought you disagreed...or did you...Darn I need more sleep lol...
I understand your theory of Spike as the supporting character and that he (possibly) wouldn't work as the lead...Actually I, uh, disagree with that. I did read the Spike After the Fall comics...I loved his lead role where he was the main focus...The Illyria thing wigged me out a bit...but to understand it...I think it was more of a Fred thing than an Illyria thing. That's what I understood...except it was more of a 'caring for you' than an 'I want you' kiss...
Stop me if I keep spoiling...It's just I downloaded them all and read them...after my brother corrupted me with this new program I can use to read them...and here I thought I knew at least the basics of the internet and what I needed, lol.
I actually thought in Season 5 Angel that it was Spike who brought more viewers in....at least that's why I watched...I watched earlier ones because of Charisma...She's another that was overlooked...at least that's how I saw it.
And wow lovely rant Ami! 'Bout summed it up!
Does anyone, who does read them, get that feeling they don't give you enough in a comic...that it's missing quite a lot? Sometimes I sit reading these puzzled, and finding myself re-reading them and using my imagination to fill in the blanks...And the mistakes...Am I the only one to catch them? Or is that in my head lol...
Back to daughter time...Hope everyone is enjoying the first day to the New Year!
I understand your theory of Spike as the supporting character and that he (possibly) wouldn't work as the lead...Actually I, uh, disagree with that. I did read the Spike After the Fall comics...I loved his lead role where he was the main focus...The Illyria thing wigged me out a bit...but to understand it...I think it was more of a Fred thing than an Illyria thing. That's what I understood...except it was more of a 'caring for you' than an 'I want you' kiss...
Stop me if I keep spoiling...It's just I downloaded them all and read them...after my brother corrupted me with this new program I can use to read them...and here I thought I knew at least the basics of the internet and what I needed, lol.
I actually thought in Season 5 Angel that it was Spike who brought more viewers in....at least that's why I watched...I watched earlier ones because of Charisma...She's another that was overlooked...at least that's how I saw it.
And wow lovely rant Ami! 'Bout summed it up!
Does anyone, who does read them, get that feeling they don't give you enough in a comic...that it's missing quite a lot? Sometimes I sit reading these puzzled, and finding myself re-reading them and using my imagination to fill in the blanks...And the mistakes...Am I the only one to catch them? Or is that in my head lol...
Back to daughter time...Hope everyone is enjoying the first day to the New Year!
Jan 01 2010 11:28 pm #30~ Ami
Guest
Only reason I watched S5 of Angel was cause of Spike. I loved Charisma too, when I started watching Angel in reruns. Of course she was ruined with that Connor storyline 
Angel and Cordy made sense, so of course she had to be killed off. Can't have Angel want anyone but Buffy, can we now?
Yeah, BandS when I read the comics ( I don't anymore) I felt like they were missing something and I'd read them a couple of times too. Guess I'm not a comic geek, I don't know. I DID NOT enjoy them. Maybe that's just my issues.
I loved Charisma too, when I started watching Angel in reruns. Of course she was ruined with that Connor storyline Angel and Cordy made sense, so of course she had to be killed off. Can't have Angel want anyone but Buffy, can we now?Yeah, BandS when I read the comics ( I don't anymore) I felt like they were missing something and I'd read them a couple of times too. Guess I'm not a comic geek, I don't know. I DID NOT enjoy them. Maybe that's just my issues.
Jan 01 2010 11:41 pm #31Ed
Guest
Hi everyone
First of all let me state for the record that I do not read either the Buffy or Angel (or Frey!) comics and so I do not really understand all the ins and outs of this discussion. I do however pick up and briefly look through issues of the comics every so often in my local comic store, and so I have a vague familiarity with what is going on in the comic; that said, I emphasise that my knowledge is vague so please forgive any inaccuracies.
I have been following the discussion and find a lot of the points made to be quite interesting, that being said I remain to be convinced by any of the candidates mooted so far. It seems to me that a lot of the potential candidates can be eliminated by the simple expedient of realising that Twilight must be someone well known to the core BtVS group, otherwise why the shock! This eliminates past life based characters such as Pike (unknown to Willow/Xander) and future based characters like Harth (again unknown to current-Willow/Xander).
Once these are eliminated, this leaves characters from the core canon who are familiar to everyone. And what's more, the potential Twilight needs to be a supposed friend/ally of the group, otherwise, why the shock?
I know people have suggested Riley, Angel, Spike, Clem and future versions of one of the characters i.e. Xander (although Satsu and Giles were also mentioned); there was even a mention of a future Buffy clone (nmcil post #4) as the real background force behind Twilight!
Most of the speculation however centres on Twilight being a male and from what little I have seen the character in the comic books certainly appears to be male. However, if I'm remembering right, Twilight always wears some form of golden breastplate as part of its costume, and so as far as I can see, the character could (potentially) be female!
With that in mind I'd like to propose Buffy as being Twilight! Once you accept the fact that Twilight could be female, then Buffy being Twilight begins to fit the known facts:
a) She's already strong (and likely to get stronger under some theories of Slayer strength)
b) She would know original-Buffy's combat moves and so could easily beat original-Buffy in a fight (as has been shown in the comics)
c) She would have the drive, ambition and resources to do what Twilight is doing (assuming she saw the need to do so)
Alright, she cannot fly, but isn't Buffy flying in the preview of the latest comic (issue 31) and isn't she boasting that she 'feels stronger'?!? She even asks 'Why does it feel so natural....'
As I said, Twilight being Buffy does make a degree of sense and would certainly account for the shock that the other core characters feel (mentioned at the start of this thread).
Of course if a future or alternate Buffy really is Twilight then the discussion needs to move on to WHY is that Buffy doing as she is doing?
What do people think!
PS) In the initial thread post 'BandS' mentions 'Willow and Xander shocked' at the revelation of Twilight's identity, can someone give me any more information about this. Is there an image of Xander and Willow (and others?) gasping in surprise as Twilight unmasks?
Jan 02 2010 12:54 am #32BandS
Guest
OOOOO jumping in...I get TFAW updates...BUFFY will learn to fly...I.E. new power!!!!!
Interesting theory!
The reason I also leaned towards Harth, being that it was 'said' Twilight is male, was also due to the fact that Harth is from the future...Hence his sister is a Slayer.
But, now reading your view...Ed, you do have a point...
And, since the show, with the Buffy-bot...one would think the writers wouldn't take this route...I'm thinking this is something Buffy would strive for...But considering we have seen what looks to be 'almost manly' type chin...It could be considered not so at a closer look...The problem I have...is the height. Twilight is taller...or does it appear to seem that way...
This is what i was referring to... www.tfaw.com/Profile/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer%3A-Season-Eight-33-%28Variant-Cover-Edition%29___357865 Of the scoobs and the blotched out version of Twilight...
This is the First print version www.tfaw.com/Profile/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer%3A-Season-Eight-33___357866 Twilight and Buffy with the big reveal...
I'm actually starting to believe that might be true...A future Buffy. Because the revealing has them almost head to head...A woman can wear padding to look masculine. The fact Twilight can fly...and now Buffy can? You can't disregard the fact that the writers also played on the 'many' Buffy theme early on...What with Buffy not really in Italy at all...So I'm with Ed on this or quite possibly NCML...Both can work, as both have the ability to fly...but so does Willow (I'm thinking a Willow wouldn't come back to end all magic though).
Sooooo...drum roll please....
I nominate future Buffy!!!!!!!!!! Good call Ed!
Interesting theory!
The reason I also leaned towards Harth, being that it was 'said' Twilight is male, was also due to the fact that Harth is from the future...Hence his sister is a Slayer.
But, now reading your view...Ed, you do have a point...
And, since the show, with the Buffy-bot...one would think the writers wouldn't take this route...I'm thinking this is something Buffy would strive for...But considering we have seen what looks to be 'almost manly' type chin...It could be considered not so at a closer look...The problem I have...is the height. Twilight is taller...or does it appear to seem that way...
This is what i was referring to... www.tfaw.com/Profile/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer%3A-Season-Eight-33-%28Variant-Cover-Edition%29___357865 Of the scoobs and the blotched out version of Twilight...
This is the First print version www.tfaw.com/Profile/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer%3A-Season-Eight-33___357866 Twilight and Buffy with the big reveal...
I'm actually starting to believe that might be true...A future Buffy. Because the revealing has them almost head to head...A woman can wear padding to look masculine. The fact Twilight can fly...and now Buffy can? You can't disregard the fact that the writers also played on the 'many' Buffy theme early on...What with Buffy not really in Italy at all...So I'm with Ed on this or quite possibly NCML...Both can work, as both have the ability to fly...but so does Willow (I'm thinking a Willow wouldn't come back to end all magic though).
Sooooo...drum roll please....
I nominate future Buffy!!!!!!!!!! Good call Ed!
Jan 02 2010 12:58 am #33BandS
Guest
Sorry bout the typos! It's nmcil I am referring to...Maybe I should pay attention to what I'm typing instead..or pay attention to the movie I'm watching with my daughter LOL...Or better yet...get my password on my computer for this site...LOL...
Jan 02 2010 01:48 am #34BandS
Guest
LMFAO at this one...But did anyone even think to consider it might be Andrew????? I read on the Q&A's that the pencils and ink going into drawing Andrew were tough...I don't know why that just dawned on me...That could rectify the completely shocked and unbelievable expressions from the Scoobs...considering...well, Andrews entire background....
Ok is March here yet???? LOL
Ok is March here yet???? LOL
Future Buffy has always been way high on my Potential Twilight - I have to check but I am fairly certain that Fray is shown with the same tattoo that Buffy has, and is shown in "Lessons" - plus Buffy makes that remark about a possible future that is so incredible that she can't even contemplate its possibility - thus I go with a future Buffy or cloned Buffy. There is also the possible "other dimensions" plot that could come out - Willow has gone to other realms and Buffy has gone to other time lines.
I really can't see Joss Whedon shitting on all the Spike Transformation Journey that he created by bringing in a Evil Spike from the Sunnydale Era - Maybe I am just totally naive, but I think that Joss Whedon does have an admiration and respect for the Spike Transformation arc. I know for a fact, based on the Write Interview that he described Spike as being the more evolved of the two vampire characters of Angel/Angelus and Spike.
Have to say though, that I don't have much confidence in what is happening to the Spike character - The writers just don't seem to get the awesome power of his journey and the power of the character. And what a huge difference between Spike and Angel/Angelus ( not that I dislike Angel/Angelus, cause I don't). Where Angel/Angelus is always with the "I didn't have my soul" excuse, Spike accepts responsibility full out, no excuses - This episode was, for me, one of the pivotal episode of his transformation arc and the big moment of change for how Buffy and Spike are joined from this point on. I really have to wonder at this making Spike always coming out second to Angel/Angelus or making his character pay the price of the fantasy of Buffy-Angel Star Crossed Lovers Forever. It is sheer nonsense in - and I dare anyone to defend this relationship other than as an abstraction for contemplation of "unconditional love" - The reality of that relationship is that Buffy became an attempted murderess - and hello, with the Romeo & Juliet connection. Romeo and Juliet were closer in age, closer in cultural and social experiences, closer in romantic experience - Angel/Angelus is in no way close to the experience level of the young high school girl that was depicted in their arc. I dare anyone of the writers that publicly have given support to Buffy and Angel, as shown in the series to actually say that if their daughter or son was turned into an attempted murderer, to say that this was a good relationship and one that they would support.
Excerpt from "Never Leave Me"
BUFFY: We think we do. Something's playing you. Some ghost or demon has figured out how to control you. Got the gang researching it right now. Xander has this theory that you're being triggered.
SPIKE: Kill me.
BUFFY: What?
SPIKE: Buffy, you have to kill me.
BUFFY: You don't understand. When I left the room earlier, I heard you talking to someone?
SPIKE: Do you have any idea what I'm capable of?
BUFFY: I was in the cellar with you. I saw what you did.
SPIKE: I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.
BUFFY: Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of.
SPIKE: No, you got off easy too. Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you? (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.
BUFFY: It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.
SPIKE: I already did it. It's already done. (challenging) You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.
I have been watching Season Seven NLM and Sleeper - I started watching them again because I was looking for particular images. Once again, I understood why I love this character so much, and the differences that are significant for me in the characters. More than anything, the scene above stands out as why I respect and admire Spike more than Angel/Angelus.
Be sure to check out my Flickr site little bit later or tomorrow - I will be posting some images test images that I did on Spike and Twilight. I notice the strong resemblance between the Twiglight Reveal Preview Image and the images of Spike with that girl he picks up in "Sleeper" - Who knows, Spike, or some Spike Form, might end up being Twiglight via some big plot twist.
I will check on that Buffy tattoo as well - Another thing that happens is that Buffy Breaks Fray's scythe in their last encounter, she breaks Fray's scythe and she kills Willow, who is dressed in suggestions once again of Elizabethan dress - another historical story filled with splitting bloodlines, betrayals and power struggles.
I absolutely hate the idea of Spike ending up as a throw-away character and having his awesome story ended up in the "ignore" mode. And that remark by, I think is was Scott Allie, about Buffy and Xander ending up in Happy Ever After Land - somewhere in small town America - what a bunch of crap. After everything that Buffy has lived through, ending up in small town America being a happy couple with Xander - what a waste.
On a side note - My Spike group over at BuffyTube was deleted by some over zealous Bangel fan - after I did all my work setting up my group and getting members - got love the fans.
I really can't see Joss Whedon shitting on all the Spike Transformation Journey that he created by bringing in a Evil Spike from the Sunnydale Era - Maybe I am just totally naive, but I think that Joss Whedon does have an admiration and respect for the Spike Transformation arc. I know for a fact, based on the Write Interview that he described Spike as being the more evolved of the two vampire characters of Angel/Angelus and Spike.
Have to say though, that I don't have much confidence in what is happening to the Spike character - The writers just don't seem to get the awesome power of his journey and the power of the character. And what a huge difference between Spike and Angel/Angelus ( not that I dislike Angel/Angelus, cause I don't). Where Angel/Angelus is always with the "I didn't have my soul" excuse, Spike accepts responsibility full out, no excuses - This episode was, for me, one of the pivotal episode of his transformation arc and the big moment of change for how Buffy and Spike are joined from this point on. I really have to wonder at this making Spike always coming out second to Angel/Angelus or making his character pay the price of the fantasy of Buffy-Angel Star Crossed Lovers Forever. It is sheer nonsense in - and I dare anyone to defend this relationship other than as an abstraction for contemplation of "unconditional love" - The reality of that relationship is that Buffy became an attempted murderess - and hello, with the Romeo & Juliet connection. Romeo and Juliet were closer in age, closer in cultural and social experiences, closer in romantic experience - Angel/Angelus is in no way close to the experience level of the young high school girl that was depicted in their arc. I dare anyone of the writers that publicly have given support to Buffy and Angel, as shown in the series to actually say that if their daughter or son was turned into an attempted murderer, to say that this was a good relationship and one that they would support.
Excerpt from "Never Leave Me"
BUFFY: We think we do. Something's playing you. Some ghost or demon has figured out how to control you. Got the gang researching it right now. Xander has this theory that you're being triggered.
SPIKE: Kill me.
BUFFY: What?
SPIKE: Buffy, you have to kill me.
BUFFY: You don't understand. When I left the room earlier, I heard you talking to someone?
SPIKE: Do you have any idea what I'm capable of?
BUFFY: I was in the cellar with you. I saw what you did.
SPIKE: I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.
BUFFY: Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of.
SPIKE: No, you got off easy too. Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you? (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.
BUFFY: It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.
SPIKE: I already did it. It's already done. (challenging) You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.
I have been watching Season Seven NLM and Sleeper - I started watching them again because I was looking for particular images. Once again, I understood why I love this character so much, and the differences that are significant for me in the characters. More than anything, the scene above stands out as why I respect and admire Spike more than Angel/Angelus.
Be sure to check out my Flickr site little bit later or tomorrow - I will be posting some images test images that I did on Spike and Twilight. I notice the strong resemblance between the Twiglight Reveal Preview Image and the images of Spike with that girl he picks up in "Sleeper" - Who knows, Spike, or some Spike Form, might end up being Twiglight via some big plot twist.
I will check on that Buffy tattoo as well - Another thing that happens is that Buffy Breaks Fray's scythe in their last encounter, she breaks Fray's scythe and she kills Willow, who is dressed in suggestions once again of Elizabethan dress - another historical story filled with splitting bloodlines, betrayals and power struggles.
I absolutely hate the idea of Spike ending up as a throw-away character and having his awesome story ended up in the "ignore" mode. And that remark by, I think is was Scott Allie, about Buffy and Xander ending up in Happy Ever After Land - somewhere in small town America - what a bunch of crap. After everything that Buffy has lived through, ending up in small town America being a happy couple with Xander - what a waste.
On a side note - My Spike group over at BuffyTube was deleted by some over zealous Bangel fan - after I did all my work setting up my group and getting members - got love the fans.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is the link to my flickr site with the test I did for potential Spike as Twiglight - It is a really good match - the original image is Spike from "Sleeper"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
Feel free to use and give out link to anyone else you think might be interested and who is keeping up with the comics and all the speculation -
BTW - that actress doing the scene with JM was excellent - those images are really beautiful, pity that Buffy and Spike were never given this same kind of treatment - she and JM were really sexy in this scene - if you look at good screencaps, you get the full effect of how sexy and beautiful the scene plays.
But ONE BIG THING - the speculation about this image depicting Twilight may simply be wrong - the last few issues does not show Twiglight wearing this color of coat - it more resembles what Ethan Rayne wears in the early issues - it also is similar to the coat that Fray's sister, Erin wears.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 02 2010 03:59 am #37bandS
Guest
Simply stunned nmcil! I'm going to check out your flickr....But I love how you dig deeper into this...I had forgotten Buffy broke the Scythe then kills Willow. Hmmm....Going to check it out...
But before I got...did you use the pose shot of the second cover (with the Scoobs in the background) for that upcoming comic in March?
Duh I'm checking lol...brb...
But before I got...did you use the pose shot of the second cover (with the Scoobs in the background) for that upcoming comic in March?
Duh I'm checking lol...brb...
Jan 02 2010 04:18 am #38BandS
Guest
Nmcil do you have CDisplay because I downloaded other issues...and I want to send you the actual drawing of Spike. I have the scans for this (from a download I did)...Actually I could give you the whole Spike one's that I have...you seem to have a better eye at this than I do...But judging by their physiques and shape...Twilight does look like Spike in shape and form...
And honestly...he knew Buffy the best...in an evil capacity and with soul...
One thing I loved about Spike---it wasn't about martyrdom or getting some ultimate reward...it was about doing what was right. He was still brash, sexy, and did I mention sex on legs---but he never pretended to be something he wasn't. He didn't atone for what he did...what he did was the past, and all he could do from then on was move forward. I think at best he does consider himself a warrior, but that's it. This is why I saw him as the most humble of all of them if you think about it...Geez even Cordelia does this too.
I am going to have to find some way to send these large files to you nmcil...maybe with your artist I you could see why I was so set on it being Spike at first...I still think there is something we are missing though...
Let me know if you would like the Spike Comics if you don't already have them...Again, these aren't the one's that are supposedly coming...these are After the Fall...I'm actually not impressed how they write Spike at all.
And honestly...he knew Buffy the best...in an evil capacity and with soul...
One thing I loved about Spike---it wasn't about martyrdom or getting some ultimate reward...it was about doing what was right. He was still brash, sexy, and did I mention sex on legs---but he never pretended to be something he wasn't. He didn't atone for what he did...what he did was the past, and all he could do from then on was move forward. I think at best he does consider himself a warrior, but that's it. This is why I saw him as the most humble of all of them if you think about it...Geez even Cordelia does this too.
I am going to have to find some way to send these large files to you nmcil...maybe with your artist I you could see why I was so set on it being Spike at first...I still think there is something we are missing though...
Let me know if you would like the Spike Comics if you don't already have them...Again, these aren't the one's that are supposedly coming...these are After the Fall...I'm actually not impressed how they write Spike at all.
Make a pdf large file and just post the link, I can do a save to target - I really appreciate anything you can send out - even if you get a temporary flickr site - you can post very large images there - and your viewers can do a download of original files - that is what I like so much about flickr - the capacity to show very large images if you want to.
If you can, mail me a cd and I will send back a check for postage -
If you can, mail me a cd and I will send back a check for postage -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Buffy picks up flying skills after she gets zapped by one of the Goddesses - If you look at the image of Buffy as she hits the snow covered ground she is represented in black, like the figures in the comic that have been hit by explosives - perhaps at this point the time lines with Fray Future become intermingled? Plus Buffy has that line about still wanting to hide something -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 02 2010 05:18 am #41BandS
Guest
http://download.cnet.com/CDisplay-Image-Display/3000-18488_4-10162238.html?tag=mncol
That's to view them...I uh downloaded these scanned files...they have an extension called cdr or better yet a rar file. Ok I probably got them from a site...I blame my brother lol...
I did compress all the Spike comics into a zip...now I'm wondering how to send them to see if it worked...Maybe do a test run...BUT first download that program...it's completely safe. The other thing...I am not sure how you could get the image into a file you can manip...I'm not that good at this computer stuff...I just know how to work around it...taking short cuts...and Photo Shop I'm not good at where you take a picture and do it yourself...I wish I did.
I have all of Season 8 as cdr's also. Would you want that, and as well as everything else I have...It might take some work. I'm hoping by compressing them into zips that it works...I know there is a better way...but I'm hoping this will save us time, and postage lol? Let me get your email to see if it works...I will email you after I find my darn password lol...
That's to view them...I uh downloaded these scanned files...they have an extension called cdr or better yet a rar file. Ok I probably got them from a site...I blame my brother lol...
I did compress all the Spike comics into a zip...now I'm wondering how to send them to see if it worked...Maybe do a test run...BUT first download that program...it's completely safe. The other thing...I am not sure how you could get the image into a file you can manip...I'm not that good at this computer stuff...I just know how to work around it...taking short cuts...and Photo Shop I'm not good at where you take a picture and do it yourself...I wish I did.
I have all of Season 8 as cdr's also. Would you want that, and as well as everything else I have...It might take some work. I'm hoping by compressing them into zips that it works...I know there is a better way...but I'm hoping this will save us time, and postage lol? Let me get your email to see if it works...I will email you after I find my darn password lol...
I found this site in my search for large files...I'm currently trying to see if Megaupload works better so I can do both folders I have as one shot each--without going by 200 mb a piece...
However while that is currently uploading...I do have a zip ready for those who are interested...
But the thing is to view these you need the download I suggested above called CDisplay.
www.ShareCow.com/Download.aspx
I have all the comics of After the Fall (Spike) and Asylum (Spike) up...I'm trying to see how Megaupload is in the meantime...So far I think I like ShareCow so far...Though I haven't tried to download them...Would someone be willing to try?
Blame my brother...LOL...Any problems contact me?
However while that is currently uploading...I do have a zip ready for those who are interested...
But the thing is to view these you need the download I suggested above called CDisplay.
www.ShareCow.com/Download.aspx
I have all the comics of After the Fall (Spike) and Asylum (Spike) up...I'm trying to see how Megaupload is in the meantime...So far I think I like ShareCow so far...Though I haven't tried to download them...Would someone be willing to try?
Blame my brother...LOL...Any problems contact me?
Someone has posted a link to read the books online - we should probably check that out first - For me, I have all the books, I just have to organize them so that I can check the source info and makes my notes. I have started getting my books inorder yesterday -
Plus doing a re-read of the Buffy-Fray Arc - TONS of info in that group - One thing that I did not pay much attention to first read was the fact that Xander actually gets shot with an arrow during the Time Shift/Portal Event. Willow also gives out all that info about a Super Power at play - there has not been much talk about those Entities, Red Demon and his companion. The Watchers are still functioning in some degree and plan to start the Slayer Cycle again.
Could it be that the reference to "Slayer of Slayers" could be a reference to Buffy and some action that she takes like giving up the power of the Slayers in Tibet? Spike is associated with "the slayer of slayers" in the series, or is that fan fiction wank. What a big surprise change it would be if Twilight ends up being a combination of Spike and Harth - Spike's face in my image test fits that preview image really well.
You know Twilight is the time just after sunset, but it is also the time just before dawn and the new day - it also is the period of decline and the final period. Joss uses he titles and names with great care -
Plus doing a re-read of the Buffy-Fray Arc - TONS of info in that group - One thing that I did not pay much attention to first read was the fact that Xander actually gets shot with an arrow during the Time Shift/Portal Event. Willow also gives out all that info about a Super Power at play - there has not been much talk about those Entities, Red Demon and his companion. The Watchers are still functioning in some degree and plan to start the Slayer Cycle again.
Could it be that the reference to "Slayer of Slayers" could be a reference to Buffy and some action that she takes like giving up the power of the Slayers in Tibet? Spike is associated with "the slayer of slayers" in the series, or is that fan fiction wank. What a big surprise change it would be if Twilight ends up being a combination of Spike and Harth - Spike's face in my image test fits that preview image really well.
You know Twilight is the time just after sunset, but it is also the time just before dawn and the new day - it also is the period of decline and the final period. Joss uses he titles and names with great care -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Check out Comic # 11...I could be over analyzing...but in the comics Twilight appears taller than Riley...Riley is actually taller than Spike AND surprisingly taller than Angel...and this is according to what Georges and the forums state about Twilight being about 6 feet tall. And I can clearly seen as drawn Twilight is taller than Riley. Or is it to appear this way as well as Twilight being a man...
And well I was looking at the shape of the head...I haven't looked back at Fray yet...But I looked at all possible mail suspects and the very closest is Spike...
When I have a chance I'm going to go back and re-read some of these...But as far as guessing goes...I'm thinking either...a future buffed out Buffy, Spike, or Harth....
I am doubting that they are nearly 6' like Georges states...because looking at the drawings there is no way when up against Buffy....I'm still thinking they are keeping everyone guessing...lol
I'm curious what everyone thinks of the next comic coming out about Buffy...and I don't want to spoil anyone but it is already partially spoiled on TFAW or Dark Horse lol...I'm thinking Buffy will be milking this power she now has...
And well I was looking at the shape of the head...I haven't looked back at Fray yet...But I looked at all possible mail suspects and the very closest is Spike...
When I have a chance I'm going to go back and re-read some of these...But as far as guessing goes...I'm thinking either...a future buffed out Buffy, Spike, or Harth....
I am doubting that they are nearly 6' like Georges states...because looking at the drawings there is no way when up against Buffy....I'm still thinking they are keeping everyone guessing...lol
I'm curious what everyone thinks of the next comic coming out about Buffy...and I don't want to spoil anyone but it is already partially spoiled on TFAW or Dark Horse lol...I'm thinking Buffy will be milking this power she now has...
Has anyone read Spike Old Wounds? There is something very VERY interesting there...that looks too much like a blurred image of what Twilight would look like...
I checked out the Buffy-Fray arc and Fray is shown with a tattoo in the same general location that Buffy has in "Lessons" - plus I wish that I could remember where I saw in the series a symbol on one of the men characters, (at least I remember it as a male character) that looks very much like the Twilight symbol. An interesting point from the Fray timeline is that The Watchers are still on the scene in some capacity - the demons actually have the last word and panels in the Fray book - just before Fray has her ending Challenge -
The preliminary sketches of Icarus resemble Spike's facial features - The body from Issue 29 cover of Twilight in Tibet looks like a very powerful male -
"And well I was looking at the shape of the head...I haven't looked back at Fray yet...But I looked at all possible mail suspects and the very closest is Spike.."
Spike fits really well in that composite test image I did - I did one with the face from his alley scene with that girl he picks up in "Sleeper" with full visibility and then I did it with opacity change and that face looks very much the same as one in the preview image. Here is my flickr link for the test images - be sure to look at both.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
Harth is a very interesting and strange character - with his connections to all the Slayer history and memories, he ends up with some very disturbing ideas and emotional connections to his sister Fray - he even gives her great big kiss just before he leaves her in their last scene, he both loves and hates Fray. I could not help but think of both Angel/Angelus and Spike when Harth talks about Fray. With his Slayer memories, it would be easy for him to channel the emotions from the relationships of any of the former Slayers.
As much as all the speculation about Twilight, I do think that ultimately what has to happen is that the timelines from Current Slayers , Buffy and Willow have to find resolution with Future Fray timeline - Not that many issues left and all these individual character storylines like Xander and Dawn romance, the Riley story, Faith and all Slayers that lost their powers, etc. have to be addressed. Bringing in a great big plot change and introduction of a new arc, if it does turn out that Spike or a combined Spike/Harth, seems like it might be too much for the amount of issues left.
The preliminary sketches of Icarus resemble Spike's facial features - The body from Issue 29 cover of Twilight in Tibet looks like a very powerful male -
"And well I was looking at the shape of the head...I haven't looked back at Fray yet...But I looked at all possible mail suspects and the very closest is Spike.."
Spike fits really well in that composite test image I did - I did one with the face from his alley scene with that girl he picks up in "Sleeper" with full visibility and then I did it with opacity change and that face looks very much the same as one in the preview image. Here is my flickr link for the test images - be sure to look at both.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
Harth is a very interesting and strange character - with his connections to all the Slayer history and memories, he ends up with some very disturbing ideas and emotional connections to his sister Fray - he even gives her great big kiss just before he leaves her in their last scene, he both loves and hates Fray. I could not help but think of both Angel/Angelus and Spike when Harth talks about Fray. With his Slayer memories, it would be easy for him to channel the emotions from the relationships of any of the former Slayers.
As much as all the speculation about Twilight, I do think that ultimately what has to happen is that the timelines from Current Slayers , Buffy and Willow have to find resolution with Future Fray timeline - Not that many issues left and all these individual character storylines like Xander and Dawn romance, the Riley story, Faith and all Slayers that lost their powers, etc. have to be addressed. Bringing in a great big plot change and introduction of a new arc, if it does turn out that Spike or a combined Spike/Harth, seems like it might be too much for the amount of issues left.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If anyone's looking for the comics, I've been able to find almost all of them downloadable for free on 4shared.com. Hope that helps.
Can you please give the link or name of person posting them? I searched "buffy comic season eight" but did not get any results -
Can you please give the link or name of person posting them? I searched "buffy comic season eight" but did not get any results -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 02 2010 11:07 pm #48Ed
Guest
First of all thanks for the feedback BandS and the links to the pics. I found them to be very interesting ... it's particularly nice to actually be able to see what I've been discussing 
Next, I can only say that you've all certainly gone into a great deal more depth in your analysis than I have. I merely put a couple of general bits of information together and made a guess based on that information. In reality, it was more of a suggestion then a real guess; I honestly don't know who Twilight is, but Twilight being Buffy had some logic to it. I'm only glad the suggestion was well received; hell, I'm glad that my suggestion wasn't dismissed out of hand 
Moving on however, I've noted that that a lot of the discussion in the thread has centred on an analysis of the image itself, and that certainly makes sense; after all, it's all we really have to work with. That being said, I'd like to sound a note of caution here, it seems to me that one of the innate problems with comics is that the identity of a person being drawn is essentially tied to how capable, or interested the artist is in giving a realistic depiction of the character. For example, from my quick glances at the comics I wasn't even aware that Riley had appeared in the comic series until I picked up on the fact from general online conversations ... I didn't recognise him!
[NB: Please don't take my above comment as an attempt to rubbish this discussion; your analysis of Twilight’s identity are all uniformly excellent and extremely relevant; not to mention in far greater depth than my guess! The above comment was merely to point out that I've seem some abysmal comic artwork in my time ... but that shouldn't dampen intelligent speculation such as this!]
By the way, excellent composite pictures nmcil; based on those images alone I've just about been convinced that Spike is Twilight. Now if only we could trust the comic book artists. 
That being said, the covers are usually done by very competent artists!
To continue on the subject of nmcil's artwork I can only say that the general face line looks spot on for Spike. On the other hand the ear doesn't seem to be quite as good a match. There again, isn't the ear supposed to be one of those things that are notoriously difficult to draw? But overall, it is an excellent match and an excellent spot!
To me however, one of the most telling points is that Twilight appears to be drawn as taller than Riley ... and Riley is certainly taller than Buffy! Therefore, always assuming that this isn't merely an attempt at deception or poor/inconsistent artwork, puts paid to my idea of Buffy being Twilight ... rats!!! And that's even leaving aside the fact that Twilight seems to be drawn with a generally male appearance! Ah well, Buffy as Twilight was a nice idea while it lasted! 
Now I'm confused ... I don't know who Twilight is. There have been lots of excellent points made and many interesting theories discussed in this thread, but I still remain to be convinced. I still like the Buffy is Twilight theory but, regrettably, as I said, it seems as if there are too many inconsistencies for the idea to be true.
The only thing that I now know for sure is that the core characters are shocked by Twilight’s identity and to me that means: 1) Twilight is someone the core characters know reasonably well and 2) is someone they probably trust – otherwise their reaction would more be one of understanding i.e. ‘Oh, it’s the cyborg, Adam!’ It also seems that Twilight is likely to be male, taller than Riley/Angel/Spike and possessing ‘superpowers’ i.e. strength and flight. As I said, I’m confused!
I'll comment again as and when I believe I may be able to add to the discussion (work permitting anyway). In the meantime I'd like to close with a couple of fairly generalised comments:
1) I agree wholeheartedly with nmcil, and many others, that Spike seems to be utterly wasted in the Angel comics. He does indeed make an excellent sidekick, but there doesn’t seem to be any development of his character. I agree that he deserves more; he can carry, I believe, a comic, or indeed a series on his own.
2) I cannot remember who first said it (in this thread anyway), but I also agree that one of the main differences between Spike and Angel/Angelus is that Spike accepts responsibility for his actions whereas Angel merely says 'That was Angelus. He doesn't have a soul; he's the evil one not me'. Spike's attitude is by far the more responsible of the two and makes for a far more interesting character.
PS: Hmmm! I know that he’s been mentioned, but how tall is Giles? Of course it would have to be some form of alternative or future Giles, but that’s possible. I seem to remember that someone said that they didn’t think that it was future Giles as he would know better than to try and effect the timeline, but Giles can be extremely ruthless when he wants to be, and if he considered the need great enough.…
Jan 02 2010 11:26 pm #49BandS
Guest
Interesting I checked 4share.com too and it's not there. I'm uploading Spike After the Fall there... Giles is 6'1...The problem with the height though...is the comics at times make Twilight very similar in height to Buffy at times...but in others taller than Riley...but on the show Riley is well, in real life, 6'2.
That is according to IMDB...
That is according to IMDB...
This is where I really and truly hate being wrong...because I do not like Angel....That said...
I read the pivotal comic that talks about the Prophecy and destiny...This is with Angel and Spike...Then I read Aftermath...
Let me tell you...I can't stand the fact they go back and forth with Angel...first he denies...then he acts...well, like Spike--where he accepts his past and his destiny that may place him on the wrong side...
All of a sudden I got this crazy theory...What if Twilight is Angel/us...either or...What if his role has been played in his verse bringing him to this moment...That his time to choose sides makes it seem like the right one...when in fact it is the wrong one...but appearing right?
Because Angel does talk about his destiny being unclear in the history books...but Spike isn't in them and no one will see him coming...
So now I'm a bit confused too. In the comics it seems to stress how Angel and Spike came to some 'brother' understanding...They still banter...but it came to a close...yet they part ways...
I know with the way the comics go that it can't be Angel...but future wise? Why not? But then I don't think it is because they are talking about a Season 9...God I'm confused...and reading these comics is like reading a very bad fic put together...Great artistry...but....
I read the pivotal comic that talks about the Prophecy and destiny...This is with Angel and Spike...Then I read Aftermath...
Let me tell you...I can't stand the fact they go back and forth with Angel...first he denies...then he acts...well, like Spike--where he accepts his past and his destiny that may place him on the wrong side...
All of a sudden I got this crazy theory...What if Twilight is Angel/us...either or...What if his role has been played in his verse bringing him to this moment...That his time to choose sides makes it seem like the right one...when in fact it is the wrong one...but appearing right?
Because Angel does talk about his destiny being unclear in the history books...but Spike isn't in them and no one will see him coming...
So now I'm a bit confused too. In the comics it seems to stress how Angel and Spike came to some 'brother' understanding...They still banter...but it came to a close...yet they part ways...
I know with the way the comics go that it can't be Angel...but future wise? Why not? But then I don't think it is because they are talking about a Season 9...God I'm confused...and reading these comics is like reading a very bad fic put together...Great artistry...but....
Jan 03 2010 12:27 am #51coalitiongirl
Search for "Buffy season" on 4shared- they're a bit disorganized (many different uploaders, etc), but they're all still there. Here's the link-
Season Eight
Season Eight
I uploaded Spike After the Fall...
Let me know if this worked!
www.4shared.com/u/pkkrkkkt/fa702b85/BandS.html
Let me know if this worked!
www.4shared.com/u/pkkrkkkt/fa702b85/BandS.html
Jan 03 2010 01:28 am #53Ed
Guest
I begin to suspect that being confused is the object of the exercise 
The fact that you mention that the comics seem to vary Twilight's height just goes to prove my point concerning comic artists and making decisions based on comic book artwork. They're probably not even trying to mislead us; it's more likely that they just cannot be bothered to keep their characters stable. It seems to me that artists would be likely to draw what works dramatically and getting exact heights right would be a secondary consideration. Hell, they may not even know what Twilight's height is supposed to be! Issues like this are essentially why I tried to emphasise the logic underlying who Twilight is rather than the artwork.
I suspect that we're doomed to wait until the comic comes out or until someone with inside knowledge leaks the information. There are just far too many possibilities and too few facts to make informed choices on. This doesn’t mean that speculation is pointless, it just means that that’s exactly what it is, conjecture or guesswork and that can be fascinating; pretty much as this discussion has been.
Based on the variable height issue I think that I’m going back to my original idea of Buffy as Twilight! You have to make a choice somewhere and going with my original idea is as good as any!
PS: Thanks for the clarification on the height issue BandS
Twilight connected to Riley - in the series the three prime references that I would connect are:
1. Buffy's Slayer dream from "Hush" and the Riley reference to the sun
2. Buffy is referenced, if I remember correctly as "the princess" when she screams
3. Riley and Sam going off to Nepal which is in the same general location as Tibet
A future Riley being controlled by the Uber Power Players is plausible as he fits the general physical requirements and has some connections from the series -
Giles was always a good candidate as well - he can be ruthless and has all the leadership experience and intellect to be Twilight plus he has been connected with the Watchers - and in Fray, the comic book, the Watchers are still in existence and are said to want to bring back the cycle of Slayers.
The sketches in the Fray comic book of Icarus very much fit the physical description and he actually has the same type of facial features that Spike has - plus he wears the same type of clothing that Spike would wear in his evil vamp period.
I checked on the tattoo and Buffy and Fray definitely has a tattoo in the same area as shown in "Lessons" and when Fray is in what would appear to be the Watchers Library
While Spike showing up in some form as Twilight, it would be interesting and stir up all the fan base - it would seem to me that Twilight would need to be a very powerful character but a character that is directly connected to the entire story that has been unfolding and the prime characters that have been effecting the power structures are Buffy, Willow, time travelers, and the demons from Fray timelines, Buffy, Willow and Fray, all taking direct actions that totally changed the power structure, Willow's serpent Goddess, who could be aligned with Gunther, and the human military.
The only way that I can see Spike showing up would be as another dimensional Spike, as future Spike from Sunnydale that is under the control and influence of third party. Twilight being more a general is how I have always seen him, that there are forces for whom he serves. We do have that scythe that Spike uses which looks similar to Buffy and Fray's scythe. What would be my scenario from a Spuffy Heart - Spike, not showing up as Twilight, but as a helper working with Buffy. If you go with the clothing Twilight has been shown wearing, it is not that brown coat. Future Giles wanting to restore a particular timeline, also works. And we have to consider that Xander, during the missile attack has been pierced by a mystical arrow.
I am still seeing this comic season as a Huge Power Struggle that has to bring in and have some, but not necessarily all, resolution to the Fray timelines -
My personal fantasy is for Satsu to end up being totally connected with the forces that are working against Buffy - I know, just how catty and petty can I get. As Fray might say, "you're lower than a Lurk."
On another note -
NEW VAMPIRE - DEMONS series begins tonight on BBC America - if you get Comcast you can watch it on the BBC channel.
1. Buffy's Slayer dream from "Hush" and the Riley reference to the sun
2. Buffy is referenced, if I remember correctly as "the princess" when she screams
3. Riley and Sam going off to Nepal which is in the same general location as Tibet
A future Riley being controlled by the Uber Power Players is plausible as he fits the general physical requirements and has some connections from the series -
Giles was always a good candidate as well - he can be ruthless and has all the leadership experience and intellect to be Twilight plus he has been connected with the Watchers - and in Fray, the comic book, the Watchers are still in existence and are said to want to bring back the cycle of Slayers.
The sketches in the Fray comic book of Icarus very much fit the physical description and he actually has the same type of facial features that Spike has - plus he wears the same type of clothing that Spike would wear in his evil vamp period.
I checked on the tattoo and Buffy and Fray definitely has a tattoo in the same area as shown in "Lessons" and when Fray is in what would appear to be the Watchers Library
While Spike showing up in some form as Twilight, it would be interesting and stir up all the fan base - it would seem to me that Twilight would need to be a very powerful character but a character that is directly connected to the entire story that has been unfolding and the prime characters that have been effecting the power structures are Buffy, Willow, time travelers, and the demons from Fray timelines, Buffy, Willow and Fray, all taking direct actions that totally changed the power structure, Willow's serpent Goddess, who could be aligned with Gunther, and the human military.
The only way that I can see Spike showing up would be as another dimensional Spike, as future Spike from Sunnydale that is under the control and influence of third party. Twilight being more a general is how I have always seen him, that there are forces for whom he serves. We do have that scythe that Spike uses which looks similar to Buffy and Fray's scythe. What would be my scenario from a Spuffy Heart - Spike, not showing up as Twilight, but as a helper working with Buffy. If you go with the clothing Twilight has been shown wearing, it is not that brown coat. Future Giles wanting to restore a particular timeline, also works. And we have to consider that Xander, during the missile attack has been pierced by a mystical arrow.
I am still seeing this comic season as a Huge Power Struggle that has to bring in and have some, but not necessarily all, resolution to the Fray timelines -
My personal fantasy is for Satsu to end up being totally connected with the forces that are working against Buffy - I know, just how catty and petty can I get. As Fray might say, "you're lower than a Lurk."
On another note -
NEW VAMPIRE - DEMONS series begins tonight on BBC America - if you get Comcast you can watch it on the BBC channel.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 03 2010 03:28 am #55Spikez_tart
Giles is around too much. Robin is supposed to be in Cleveland (what happened to the big Faith/Robin love affair?) I don't like the Future Xander-Giles-Riley idea much, but I guess it could happen. Twilight connected to Riley - Nope. Spoiler Follows.
In the last comic I have, Riley gets hurt, Buffy saves him from being squished by a Big Goddess Foot and drags him bag to Oz's house where she reveals that Riley was a spy on the inside of Twilight's ring and was working with Buffy all along. To which I say, if you were a spy why didn't you give Buffy any actual information? Jeez this guy is as stupid as Angel. He was looking pretty mashed, so it's possible he'll die. Which gives me a happy.
In the last comic I have, Riley gets hurt, Buffy saves him from being squished by a Big Goddess Foot and drags him bag to Oz's house where she reveals that Riley was a spy on the inside of Twilight's ring and was working with Buffy all along. To which I say, if you were a spy why didn't you give Buffy any actual information? Jeez this guy is as stupid as Angel. He was looking pretty mashed, so it's possible he'll die. Which gives me a happy.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 03 2010 04:15 am #56~ Ami
Guest
..it's possible he'll die. Which gives me a happy. 
It gives me a BIG happy! 
Oh, we can dream. 
It gives me a BIG happy! Oh, we can dream. according to Twilight, he has been feeding Riley information and knew he was working for Buffy.
Been think about that mask that Twilight wears and what it might suggest about the man behind the mask - Warren calls Twilight "Copperhead" could it be a possible reference to snakes in their much maligned symbol of "betrayer or the "a snake in the grass" sneak? Of course the other symbol of snakes is "transformation" and resurrection - life cycle of change and rejuvenation.
Who could you see as intimate friend or lover and supporter that would betray Buffy, either for personal agenda or from an individual perspective of doing what was needed or right?
Been think about that mask that Twilight wears and what it might suggest about the man behind the mask - Warren calls Twilight "Copperhead" could it be a possible reference to snakes in their much maligned symbol of "betrayer or the "a snake in the grass" sneak? Of course the other symbol of snakes is "transformation" and resurrection - life cycle of change and rejuvenation.
Who could you see as intimate friend or lover and supporter that would betray Buffy, either for personal agenda or from an individual perspective of doing what was needed or right?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 03 2010 06:18 am #58BandS
Guest
Something to think about nmcil...
Did anyone else notice that during the Retreat comics (29) they brought up the word Spike a lot...probably to make us wonder or deter us...I am also hearing we (the audience won't know until comic 34 who Twilight is...he unveils but we find out in 34....how rude....lol...tell us 33 but it'd really in April we find out....
Did anyone else notice that during the Retreat comics (29) they brought up the word Spike a lot...probably to make us wonder or deter us...I am also hearing we (the audience won't know until comic 34 who Twilight is...he unveils but we find out in 34....how rude....lol...tell us 33 but it'd really in April we find out....
Was reading over at Buffyfest and came across her speculation on Buffy - Since it connects to my speculation on Twilight and Betrayal thought you might like to read it. I am not suggesting that Twilight is Angel/Angelus but I do go along with the idea that Twilight could be a very intimate and trusted companion.
this is the link that shows images: http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/08/ive-still-got-theoryon-twilight-and.html
Again from the "Buffyfest" site:
Buffy's Bun in the Oven
Crazy as it might sound, I'm starting to think Buffy might be pregos by the end of this comic, if not arc. There's a pretty infamous panel in Issue # 10, "Anywhere but Here" with the vision of Buffy on the floor, beaten and crying. There's a red egg above, cracked and empty. Then comes the line, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." I gotta say that a future version of Buffy's child coming back to settle some score is a bit (a lot) soap opera-ish to me, so I hope the child isn't Twilight. An egg does symbolize fertility and birth, and the red egg specifically in Chinese culture is given at the birth of a child. We also have the use of the word "Queen" in reference to Buffy and "Saving the Prince", as well.
It's probably a silly theory that proves me all sorts of wrong, but I'm okay with that because I don't much like the idea anyway.
nmcil
On that repeated use of spike - it more makes me think of the ripples and huge time shift or magic event that Willow keeps talking about - all those ripples
this is the link that shows images: http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/08/ive-still-got-theoryon-twilight-and.html
Again from the "Buffyfest" site:
Buffy's Bun in the Oven
Crazy as it might sound, I'm starting to think Buffy might be pregos by the end of this comic, if not arc. There's a pretty infamous panel in Issue # 10, "Anywhere but Here" with the vision of Buffy on the floor, beaten and crying. There's a red egg above, cracked and empty. Then comes the line, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." I gotta say that a future version of Buffy's child coming back to settle some score is a bit (a lot) soap opera-ish to me, so I hope the child isn't Twilight. An egg does symbolize fertility and birth, and the red egg specifically in Chinese culture is given at the birth of a child. We also have the use of the word "Queen" in reference to Buffy and "Saving the Prince", as well.
It's probably a silly theory that proves me all sorts of wrong, but I'm okay with that because I don't much like the idea anyway.
nmcil
On that repeated use of spike - it more makes me think of the ripples and huge time shift or magic event that Willow keeps talking about - all those ripples
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 03 2010 09:55 pm #60coalitiongirl
I haven't seen the cover mentioned above, but the idea of a cracked red egg seems to me to symbolize a phoenix reborn, so I'd assume that it refers to someone who's been dead and now is no longer. Which is most of the characters in the Buffyverse.
Although it also looks like it could just be a cracked symbol of something else entirely. It seems a little too random to actually mean anything.
I agree that Buffy's child coming to the past as Twilight does sound like a soap opera plot, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to do it anyway. Though it still wouldn't account for the looks of shock on their faces when Twilight's unmasked, because how would they know the child already?
Although it also looks like it could just be a cracked symbol of something else entirely. It seems a little too random to actually mean anything.
I agree that Buffy's child coming to the past as Twilight does sound like a soap opera plot, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to do it anyway. Though it still wouldn't account for the looks of shock on their faces when Twilight's unmasked, because how would they know the child already?
Jan 04 2010 01:17 am #61Ed
Guest
nmcil makes an interesting point when mentioning that Warren calls Twilight "Copperhead"; I hadn't noticed that fact! This strongly suggests that Warren knows Twilight's identity. I had been working on the assumption that not even his followers knew who Twilight was.
Unfortunately, this makes little difference to us as we attempt to work out Twilight's identity. Although it does have some interesting implications i.e. he trusts at least some of his followers or that his security isn't quite as good as he thinks it is ... a potential weakness?
Another thing I hadn't noticed (thanks for the info BandS – I must start reading the comics at some point) is that there was a lot of mention of Spike in issue #29. Hmmm ... thinks.... goes to douse brain as it overheats.
The idea that Buffy is pregnant (or is about to become so) is an extremely interesting idea and seems to have some validity based on the symbolism mentioned. On the other hand I'm not sure that the child coming back makes sense in relation to the comic covers; we're back to the fact that the core characters would not be able to recognise who it was and so would have no reason to react with shock; at least not until Twilight says 'Behold, I am the child of Buffy and xxx'.
Which raises another interesting question: who would the father be? I know that the Georges Jeanty alternate cover of issue 31 shows Buffy(?) with a tear in her eye as she watches Dawn and Xander kiss but...
And here's another thought isn't Buffy the only one to have seen Dawn and Xander kiss? Could this possibly be an illusion designed to distract her from what is going on? In other words, could the romance between Dawn and Xander be an illusion ... please, please make it an illusion!
There are a lot of things that readers miss with the visual - One obvious BIGGIE about Riley is that he no longer has that large scar the runs across his face from the series - unless he had plastic surgery, this is not the same Riley - Same with the scythes that were the main power source for the Slayer transformation magic - they are not the same scythes that Buffy used in the TV Sunnydale timeline -
The way Twilight and The General speak about the military men dying - Twilight has gone beyond a connection with humans dying - he has gone to a place of abstraction about men and warriors dying -
I still have that "gut feeling" that Twilight is not the prime Power Player in this, but that he serves another higher being or purpose - much like The Watchers Council who say their Slayers as pawns to move around and use for their higher purpose - Same as Walsh and her Associates saw their soldiers and hostiles to use as they wanted and needed for their own agendas - Same as Angel/Angelus took on the Black Thorn and sent all of LA into a hell dimension, again for his own agenda, same as Knox used and killed Fred for his own purpose of bringing back Illyria.
What is the main theme aside from all the speculation about Twilight - Who Has The Power and How Do They Use It.
And if we take in the symbol of the Red Egg and The Phoenix, it frankly looks to me like Buffy may have died and resurrected after her encounter with the Blue Goddess, the symbol of eyes being covered at death, as Buffy's eyes are covered after her fall always suggested the coins or magic talisman for the journey of passage after death. Buffy is shown as a skeleton when she hits the ground and when she awakes the ground is snow covered -
And on who saw Xander and Dawn kissing - Buffy and Andrew
The way Twilight and The General speak about the military men dying - Twilight has gone beyond a connection with humans dying - he has gone to a place of abstraction about men and warriors dying -
I still have that "gut feeling" that Twilight is not the prime Power Player in this, but that he serves another higher being or purpose - much like The Watchers Council who say their Slayers as pawns to move around and use for their higher purpose - Same as Walsh and her Associates saw their soldiers and hostiles to use as they wanted and needed for their own agendas - Same as Angel/Angelus took on the Black Thorn and sent all of LA into a hell dimension, again for his own agenda, same as Knox used and killed Fred for his own purpose of bringing back Illyria.
What is the main theme aside from all the speculation about Twilight - Who Has The Power and How Do They Use It.
And if we take in the symbol of the Red Egg and The Phoenix, it frankly looks to me like Buffy may have died and resurrected after her encounter with the Blue Goddess, the symbol of eyes being covered at death, as Buffy's eyes are covered after her fall always suggested the coins or magic talisman for the journey of passage after death. Buffy is shown as a skeleton when she hits the ground and when she awakes the ground is snow covered -
And on who saw Xander and Dawn kissing - Buffy and Andrew
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Buffy shown as skeleton? There were others around her 'blackened' out not skeletal...the only thing I saw was the snow over her eyes...I don't think there is anything representing here as that the "power" was reborn in her but much more?
I do agree with there is more to this than Twilight. Seems to me they are ultimately striving for it to 'rebirth' the Slayer line. To make it once what it was? I truly believe that's what Twilight wants too because it could be causing an imbalance? Thus bringing us to a future with Fray....that could be changed or different from what we have seen...anything is possible and all speculation.
I think art plays an important part to paint the scene...but as far as giving clues--not so much. I think the Red Egg you speak of symbolizes Buffy and the fact she is The Phoenix risen from death by her (maker?) Willow...I think it was important to Buffy and Willow and THAT scene...not for what is to come. I find it believable that Buffy was stressing about the fact she killed a future Willow and then we see this scene....Betrayal of the worst kind...by a close friend or family member....
The child theory...seems like a plot right out of Passions...lol. I mean if they do it...choose wisely how they go about it...otherwise their will be very happy fans or a riot from not so very happy fans. What is said during that point with Scoobs in the background after the big reveal of who is Twilight can explain why the shocked faces...but it doesn't explain the heart wrenching devastated look on Buffy's face when Twilight is revealed. I'm starting to believe the expressions done are done at different points in the comic. I believe the first is what could be seen at the very end of the comic followed by some words exchanged then the shocked gasps from the Scoobs...But we shall see!
I just feel that reading too much into symbolism for a comic is a bit over the top...lol...
We the audience can analyze them to death lol...but ultimately I don't think its much but the scenery...Artists will say differently because everything means something in their work...But after reading and seeing quite a bit of some posts on Buffyfest...I'm thinking otherwise...From what I get the writers and artists focus a lot on the characters and setting the scene...that's it...It's the words that need to paid attention to....what little of it there is lol...
But just my opinion...especially listening to what Georges Jeanty and then what Brian Lynch had to say is some video posts...So I'm thinking we are all over thinking things? LOL...Gotta love reading too much into things lol...
Curious does anyone consider this canon? I find it odd from one of the video blogs that Buffy has been around longer than the series...does this include the movie...because that's how I interpreted it...If it's that then the series the show we saw...is actually non canon then...See confusing lol...
I do agree with there is more to this than Twilight. Seems to me they are ultimately striving for it to 'rebirth' the Slayer line. To make it once what it was? I truly believe that's what Twilight wants too because it could be causing an imbalance? Thus bringing us to a future with Fray....that could be changed or different from what we have seen...anything is possible and all speculation.
I think art plays an important part to paint the scene...but as far as giving clues--not so much. I think the Red Egg you speak of symbolizes Buffy and the fact she is The Phoenix risen from death by her (maker?) Willow...I think it was important to Buffy and Willow and THAT scene...not for what is to come. I find it believable that Buffy was stressing about the fact she killed a future Willow and then we see this scene....Betrayal of the worst kind...by a close friend or family member....
The child theory...seems like a plot right out of Passions...lol. I mean if they do it...choose wisely how they go about it...otherwise their will be very happy fans or a riot from not so very happy fans. What is said during that point with Scoobs in the background after the big reveal of who is Twilight can explain why the shocked faces...but it doesn't explain the heart wrenching devastated look on Buffy's face when Twilight is revealed. I'm starting to believe the expressions done are done at different points in the comic. I believe the first is what could be seen at the very end of the comic followed by some words exchanged then the shocked gasps from the Scoobs...But we shall see!
I just feel that reading too much into symbolism for a comic is a bit over the top...lol...
We the audience can analyze them to death lol...but ultimately I don't think its much but the scenery...Artists will say differently because everything means something in their work...But after reading and seeing quite a bit of some posts on Buffyfest...I'm thinking otherwise...From what I get the writers and artists focus a lot on the characters and setting the scene...that's it...It's the words that need to paid attention to....what little of it there is lol...
But just my opinion...especially listening to what Georges Jeanty and then what Brian Lynch had to say is some video posts...So I'm thinking we are all over thinking things? LOL...Gotta love reading too much into things lol...
Curious does anyone consider this canon? I find it odd from one of the video blogs that Buffy has been around longer than the series...does this include the movie...because that's how I interpreted it...If it's that then the series the show we saw...is actually non canon then...See confusing lol...
My main thoughts about Twilight and any of the other futures timelines - any of the themes that have been presented - is that it all has to be based on the story that has already been presented and the resolution of the material presented.
Joss Whedon was awesome in the series with the great big and important plot changes handled with The Big Surprise - but I don't see that happening with something like Buffy having a child that comes back as Twilight. I can imagine that Twilight would have something to do with the Fray timeline and the use of magics since that was very much a part of the Fray comic book.
Visuals taken out of context primarily work with who is viewing them - those preview images don't really tell you what is happening in the context of the story.
The only things that I am sure of that connect with the series and the characters is that Riley, unless he has had a great comestic surgery or is under some kind of glamour, is not the same Riley - he does not have the same face that Riley ends up with in the series - NO SCAR. The other thing that I find interesting is that Buffy and Fray both have a tattoo in just about the same place just above the buttocks - except that it looks like they are reversed.
when Buffy drops down to the ground she is shown in black line and something drastic happened to her if she has been out of the battle and unconscious for 5 hours. I am sure that you are right about the artists primarily working to set the scene - if we go with this premise, does it mean that the only reason Buffy is depicted submerged in snow, with the very iconic "eyes covered death passage symbol" is so that when her eyes open we have the action of snow falling from her eyes? Who knows what the artist intends, but being a visual artist myself, I think the artist does have a specific idea behind the artwork.
I'm just going crazy waiting for the next issues -
Off to watch Cranford now -
Joss Whedon was awesome in the series with the great big and important plot changes handled with The Big Surprise - but I don't see that happening with something like Buffy having a child that comes back as Twilight. I can imagine that Twilight would have something to do with the Fray timeline and the use of magics since that was very much a part of the Fray comic book.
Visuals taken out of context primarily work with who is viewing them - those preview images don't really tell you what is happening in the context of the story.
The only things that I am sure of that connect with the series and the characters is that Riley, unless he has had a great comestic surgery or is under some kind of glamour, is not the same Riley - he does not have the same face that Riley ends up with in the series - NO SCAR. The other thing that I find interesting is that Buffy and Fray both have a tattoo in just about the same place just above the buttocks - except that it looks like they are reversed.
when Buffy drops down to the ground she is shown in black line and something drastic happened to her if she has been out of the battle and unconscious for 5 hours. I am sure that you are right about the artists primarily working to set the scene - if we go with this premise, does it mean that the only reason Buffy is depicted submerged in snow, with the very iconic "eyes covered death passage symbol" is so that when her eyes open we have the action of snow falling from her eyes? Who knows what the artist intends, but being a visual artist myself, I think the artist does have a specific idea behind the artwork.
I'm just going crazy waiting for the next issues -
Off to watch Cranford now -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Uh when does Riley attain a scar? Canon wise he didn't have one from what I saw, that is. During the comics he doesn't have one. If you can help me with this...that would be great! Picture wise?
Thanks!
Thanks!
That's my point - the Riley from the comic season does not have a huge scar across his face like he does when we see him in AYW - Unless asked specifically to draw the character without the scar from the series, the artist would have drawn Riley as the last time he was seen on the series. Doesn't it matter that a man they saw in Sunnydale had a scar down his face? They have Buffy shedding tears and holding his hand and desperately asking him for an answer to help salvage their losing battle with Twilight and The Goddesses -
Maybe in the comic book genre, changes like this don't matter - but I can't imagine that this detail does not come into the story at some point. Was the lack of his scar ever addressed in the comics and I simply forgot about it?
Maybe in the comic book genre, changes like this don't matter - but I can't imagine that this detail does not come into the story at some point. Was the lack of his scar ever addressed in the comics and I simply forgot about it?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nmcil I think in comics it's different than what we see on the series because let's face it, those details get noticed more. I think this was an oversight really, just a human error.
I get what you mean by remembering them as last seen, but any number of things could have happened...I just think they didn't realize or realized to late not putting that detail...now had they done that to Xander...I'd be worried.
I get what you mean by remembering them as last seen, but any number of things could have happened...I just think they didn't realize or realized to late not putting that detail...now had they done that to Xander...I'd be worried.
like you icon BandS - just wanted to tell you
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 05 2010 03:24 am #69Spikez_tart
BandS - This is from As You Were when Riley comes to find Buffy. He has a big old scar on his forehead.
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/vidcaps/115/asyouwere033.shtml
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/vidcaps/115/asyouwere033.shtml
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Thanks Nmcil! Spikez-tart thanks for that, I did find it on Screencaps too...I didn't remember the scar...I just thought that could have been one of those details they could have forgotten or could be one of those...ah glad to know you are paying attention type of details...But that wouldn't explain why one Riley is shorter than the other...or who knows ya know...
I'm sorry if it's Riley I'm so going to quit reading these...I can stomach it if it's Angel...Xander...even Giles...but Riley???? No...sorry didn't like him at all. Just my personal opinion.
I'm sorry if it's Riley I'm so going to quit reading these...I can stomach it if it's Angel...Xander...even Giles...but Riley???? No...sorry didn't like him at all. Just my personal opinion.
My apologies to all Riley fans, but for me he was such a weak and uninteresting character - probably really the most human reflections of real life in the series of her love interest, but still - not a character that I particularly cared for. But Buffy believe she loved him - and obviously continues to care about him in the comic season. I can't see Riley as Twilight based on what we know of him in the series. If he is, he finally gets his big desire to be Buffy's power equal.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 06 2010 03:25 am #72Spikez_tart
AS Xander said - he's okay in an oafish kind of way. He is better in scenes with other men.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
The only character that I can see as Twilight from the TV series is Giles - he is, as far as I can see, the one character that would be that knowledgeable and connected to the Sunnydale Slayer conversion and connected to the power players. The main theme that I can see in the comic season is the idea of Epic Power Struggles and Twilight as been a warrior in power struggles and wars. Giles or some last great Watcher that is trying to resolved the timeline changes or dimensional changes between demon worlds and human worlds.
Other than Angel/Angelus being firmly established with another company and in his own comic series, this might have been a great way to finally answer the question of Angel/Angelus and his role with the schemes of The Senior Partners or those Powers.
Other than Angel/Angelus being firmly established with another company and in his own comic series, this might have been a great way to finally answer the question of Angel/Angelus and his role with the schemes of The Senior Partners or those Powers.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Question about Giles--We know from the series he was once into Magic? Why did it seem that we saw very few times him using magic? I think the most he did use it was during his magic fight with Evil Willow.
I can see this as truth of Giles being Twilight, but isn't he old...lol...Not to offend him or anyone else lol...He kicks Buffy and Satsu's butts at one point...And I recall Giles feeling aged? Am I wrong...
Unless he has some powerful mojo himself...I still find it hard to think it's Giles because how does that factor into Twilight wanting the Hellmouths closed and to rid the world of magic? The only one's I see wanting this would either be Riley or even Buffy...and actually Xander.
Night I am now talking nonsense I think...lol...
Sorry if that didn't make a lick of sense...
I can see this as truth of Giles being Twilight, but isn't he old...lol...Not to offend him or anyone else lol...He kicks Buffy and Satsu's butts at one point...And I recall Giles feeling aged? Am I wrong...
Unless he has some powerful mojo himself...I still find it hard to think it's Giles because how does that factor into Twilight wanting the Hellmouths closed and to rid the world of magic? The only one's I see wanting this would either be Riley or even Buffy...and actually Xander.
Night I am now talking nonsense I think...lol...
Sorry if that didn't make a lick of sense...
No - not nonsense, Giles in this timeline is much older and too old to fit the powerful male that we see as Twilight, but with magic anything is possible. I just can't see that Twilight is not related to the Fray timeline - in Fray the world has already lost the use and knowledge of Magic - Giles, even Xander (with that itchy neck line) could end up being a transitional character - one that has been touched and transformed by the ripples from the Fray future. Twilight is very clever and an experienced warrior and leader - unfortunately for any fans that might want a Spike as Twilight , that chin when the mask is partially lifted in no way at all resembles Spike's chin.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 06 2010 08:23 pm #76coalitiongirl
If we're thinking about Giles as potentially Twilight, how about Ethan Rayne? It wouldn't be the first time the Joss has resurrected a character we thought dead. And it would have been a believable strategic move to help Buffy, and then fake his own death. I'm not sure about his build, but judging from this picture, it might be plausible even without some magic, or even if he's just done some body-building.
Oh, and it's also possible that the "ridding the world of magic, etc" is some scheme of his. Just a theory!
Far as I can tell that chin goes with Giles, Icarus, - Ethan is shown with, what is it called, a cleft? that separation of the chin. But I don't think the artwork is any kind of reliable source - the characters are drawn so differently from one issue to the next. Angel/Angelus is the only other character that gets the strong straight chin treatment - but that. And Xander has that line about Scottish link which could be connected to Twilight and his "itchy neck" comment when he lifts his mask.
When the devil is the next issue coming out?
When the devil is the next issue coming out?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2010 12:15 am #78lovesbitch91
I'm... speechless. And disgusted. And I have no more words than that. Check out the upcoming Buffy S8 covers. http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1001/07/darkhorseapril.htm
Yup..just saw them a little while ago. Like I said Spuffy and Spike always get the fuzzy end of the lollipop. We really shouldn't be surprised tho.That's why I don't give them any of my money, quit reading a loooong time ago. That being said I don't know if it should be taken at face value, cause really why would you reveal something that's your biggest plot of the season in this way? Seems really stupid, but then again , this is S8 so stupid and absured just come to mind. :nod:
Jan 08 2010 01:39 am #80coalitiongirl
Oh, come ON!
There's still this unquenchable little spark of hope in me that points out that the writers have always pushed off the Spike/Buffy because people are dying for them to get together. I mean, how many of us started the comics in the hopes of a reunion? So maybe it WILL happen, but only at the end.
And, the other perk- looks like the Angel characters are finally coming over to Buffy! Which means, unequivocally, that we will see Spike (Oh, who am I kidding?). Okay, probably. And just like Ami said, if they're spoiling it now, then maybe it's just a red herring? I'm pretty sure that they made a big deal about the Bangel scene in "End of Days/Chosen," and those were two of the Spuffiest episodes out there. And if they wanted a huge surprise, it would probably Spike (especially if we're crossing over now).
So these are my optimistic thoughts. I have to go scour my eyeballs at that cover now.
There's still this unquenchable little spark of hope in me that points out that the writers have always pushed off the Spike/Buffy because people are dying for them to get together. I mean, how many of us started the comics in the hopes of a reunion? So maybe it WILL happen, but only at the end.
And, the other perk- looks like the Angel characters are finally coming over to Buffy! Which means, unequivocally, that we will see Spike (Oh, who am I kidding?
). Okay, probably. And just like Ami said, if they're spoiling it now, then maybe it's just a red herring? I'm pretty sure that they made a big deal about the Bangel scene in "End of Days/Chosen," and those were two of the Spuffiest episodes out there. And if they wanted a huge surprise, it would probably Spike (especially if we're crossing over now).So these are my optimistic thoughts. I have to go scour my eyeballs at that cover now.
Jan 08 2010 01:58 am #81slaymesoftly
Moderator
The newest Buffy was to come into my store yesterday. I'll probably pick it up tomorrow evening.
There's a lot of discussion going on in LJ right now about those covers. Make a note that they are for the April issue and may well be an April Fools joke. Or a dream sequence. Or, Joss has just lost his mind - along with losing all the Spuffy shippers who may have been following the comics. lol
There's a lot of discussion going on in LJ right now about those covers. Make a note that they are for the April issue and may well be an April Fools joke. Or a dream sequence. Or, Joss has just lost his mind - along with losing all the Spuffy shippers who may have been following the comics. lol
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
<quote> I have to go scour my eyeballs at that cover now. <quote> LOL coalitiongirl, know what you mean. EWW
Anywho...I think it's Joss making the shippers go crazy. Or not. Who knows,who cares? We're always being driven down this road. It's getting annoying already.
Yeah, if and I'm stressing if there's a Spuffy reunion it won't be til the end. And I think they're doing S9, not sure. Love your optimistic thoughts, I kinda gave up already...
Anywho...I think it's Joss making the shippers go crazy. Or not. Who knows,who cares? We're always being driven down this road. It's getting annoying already.Yeah, if and I'm stressing if there's a Spuffy reunion it won't be til the end. And I think they're doing S9, not sure. Love your optimistic thoughts, I kinda gave up already...
Can I just gag now! I have a stomach virus...this is making me want to get sick again!!!!
Please explain to me, how can they still ship for this couple when they parted ways? It's been YEARS!!!!!! They don't automatically say "OH, I still know you, you're still the same" And wham you are attached at the lips and groin??????? I get you know who they were back then, but when you are apart people change or possibly remain the same but there has to be some growth?
This is so unrealistic...Sure Spuffy fans hope for a reunion because we at least got something, even though it wasn't enough. And of course Spuffy fans are going to think Spike is better, but in the end who knows where they are going to go. They gave something real shown with Spuffy, yet torrential, but not fanciful at all. Yet, they still push for this Bangel couple, and why? Well, my guess is: they are playing up the soul mate crap.
They really need to look at the soul mate concept then...but then again...had Buffy not been corrupted by Angel/us then who knows...
Oh god I'm sick from that cover, how can they be so hypocritical about who is right for her or not? At this point I'm thinking Willow is more her match than any of them...Please explain that to me how they can pair these two together when distance & being together is not there...So very unrealistic.
Scours eyeballs with the rest of you...UGH!
Please explain to me, how can they still ship for this couple when they parted ways? It's been YEARS!!!!!! They don't automatically say "OH, I still know you, you're still the same" And wham you are attached at the lips and groin??????? I get you know who they were back then, but when you are apart people change or possibly remain the same but there has to be some growth?
This is so unrealistic...Sure Spuffy fans hope for a reunion because we at least got something, even though it wasn't enough. And of course Spuffy fans are going to think Spike is better, but in the end who knows where they are going to go. They gave something real shown with Spuffy, yet torrential, but not fanciful at all. Yet, they still push for this Bangel couple, and why? Well, my guess is: they are playing up the soul mate crap.
They really need to look at the soul mate concept then...but then again...had Buffy not been corrupted by Angel/us then who knows...
Oh god I'm sick from that cover, how can they be so hypocritical about who is right for her or not? At this point I'm thinking Willow is more her match than any of them...Please explain that to me how they can pair these two together when distance & being together is not there...So very unrealistic.
Scours eyeballs with the rest of you...UGH!
Jan 08 2010 03:25 am #84another guest
Guest
I was thinking twilight was caleb-mainly because of his misogynist speech.Just now,though-thinking -very tall-knows the slayer-anti magic so very "logical" -all the military stuff+ riley--what about Adam?
I am not surprised at all, ever since that remark from the interview that some fans would love what happens and some would hate it - That Angel/Angelus would be brought in, either as a major character in the arc or as a dreamspace sequence.
I just hope that I don't end up losing my respect for Joss Whedon - I believed him when he said that the franchises were going to be kept apart and that the business arrangements would not allow for crossovers. Of course, I think it was Scott Allie that said this was going to be one of the biggest crossovers ever.
From a business point of view - if they do go with another heavy Buffy-Angel arc - this customer will probably try to find some way of reading online - cause really, I am not event remotely interested in another go of Buffy-Angel/Angelus.
I still don't see any logical reason that Angel/Angelus would fit into the story that is being told - The only possible connection for Angel/Angelus to be a part of the Buffy comic season is as a transformation for Buffy to finally accept or understand that as the head general and leader of the Slayers, she cannot have a relationship with someone she loves, as the Virgin Queen does. This is something that Willow has already spoken about. We know the other Elizabeth that is called "MaAm" - Queen Elizabeth.
I know one thing for sure, that my interest in The Buffyverse if Angel/Angelus is reunited with Buffy will take a huge turn downward. - The Powerful story that Joss Whedon presented with the Buffy-Spike arc and the Spike transformation Journey was much to important and meaningful to me to have that replaced with Buffy-Angel/Angelus.
It's Joss Whedon's story to tell and I am very interested to see where he takes the Buffyverse - but frankly, what kept be so completely involved with the series was the emotional connection - not feeling so connected right now.
I just hope that I don't end up losing my respect for Joss Whedon - I believed him when he said that the franchises were going to be kept apart and that the business arrangements would not allow for crossovers. Of course, I think it was Scott Allie that said this was going to be one of the biggest crossovers ever.
From a business point of view - if they do go with another heavy Buffy-Angel arc - this customer will probably try to find some way of reading online - cause really, I am not event remotely interested in another go of Buffy-Angel/Angelus.
I still don't see any logical reason that Angel/Angelus would fit into the story that is being told - The only possible connection for Angel/Angelus to be a part of the Buffy comic season is as a transformation for Buffy to finally accept or understand that as the head general and leader of the Slayers, she cannot have a relationship with someone she loves, as the Virgin Queen does. This is something that Willow has already spoken about. We know the other Elizabeth that is called "MaAm" - Queen Elizabeth.
I know one thing for sure, that my interest in The Buffyverse if Angel/Angelus is reunited with Buffy will take a huge turn downward. - The Powerful story that Joss Whedon presented with the Buffy-Spike arc and the Spike transformation Journey was much to important and meaningful to me to have that replaced with Buffy-Angel/Angelus.
It's Joss Whedon's story to tell and I am very interested to see where he takes the Buffyverse - but frankly, what kept be so completely involved with the series was the emotional connection - not feeling so connected right now.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Would you please post the LJ link where the mentioned discussion is going on -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2010 03:43 am #87slaymesoftly
Moderator
http://penny-lane-42.livejournal.com/111033.html
and
http://dorians-kitten.livejournal.com/31671.html
and
http://dorians-kitten.livejournal.com/31671.html
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jan 08 2010 10:54 am #88Old fan
Guest
Well i can only see the good in this.
If Twlight is Angel then you can be certain that Spike will show up close to the final and fight side by side with Buffy to take him down.
If Twilight is Angel then there is no way in hell Buffy would be kissing him and being lovey dovey, Twilight still killed legions of her charges,young girls. Buffy would have to be one of the most disgusting humanbeings to simply forget about that and start making out with him.
Even so i doubt this is real, one it being the april issue, two i still think it will be future Spike that's what a lot of people were guessing from the secret identity cover. A very convenient way to confuse the audience. It being Angel however does suggest a old flame and since it won't be Angel it has to be Spike.
It also again shows that Joss can use whoever he wants, he already stated many times before he only wants to use Spike or Angel in the buffy comics, none of the other Angel cast member because they would make little to no sense.
Well guys here's a link that confirms Angel is Twilight...I suppose, who knows?
buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/01/confirmed-angel-is-twilight.html
and the interview
www.comicbookresources.com/
We'll see...but if it's true why is Buffy making out with a murderer who has killed some of her Slayers and has been making her life hell?
buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/01/confirmed-angel-is-twilight.html
and the interview
www.comicbookresources.com/
We'll see...but if it's true why is Buffy making out with a murderer who has killed some of her Slayers and has been making her life hell?
I have had my first visit to a Bangel site - not a large one, I wonder if I was actually watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Thanks ever for the LJ links - will check them out later tonight.
Thanks ever for the LJ links - will check them out later tonight.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2010 03:47 am #91slaymesoftly
Moderator
ROFL, nmcil
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
You're welcome nmcil. and LMAO about your Bangel site visit. They live in their own world don't they?
and LMAO about your Bangel site visit. They live in their own world don't they?Maybe we will finally get back to the major over all arc for Angel/Angelus and his connections with W&H and The Senior Partners and The Powers That Be - the big mystery of Angel/Angelus and his part in, which side he would fight in that Apocalypse.
While Angel/Angelus did fit the physical descriptions, since Joss Whedon and the publisher kept going on about how there would not be crossovers or that the business arrangements did not allow for chracters from the IDW franchise to be used by DarkHorse, I simply believed what they said.
Actually, it would be great if Joss got back to that theme - plus it will be very interesting to see what he finally comes up with in his next phase for the Buffyverse saga. The new writer Brad Meltzer talked about "the meat in the sandwich" whatever the hell that means - I don't even want to think about that erotic dream with Buffy sandwiched between Angel and Spike.
While Angel/Angelus did fit the physical descriptions, since Joss Whedon and the publisher kept going on about how there would not be crossovers or that the business arrangements did not allow for chracters from the IDW franchise to be used by DarkHorse, I simply believed what they said.
Actually, it would be great if Joss got back to that theme - plus it will be very interesting to see what he finally comes up with in his next phase for the Buffyverse saga. The new writer Brad Meltzer talked about "the meat in the sandwich" whatever the hell that means - I don't even want to think about that erotic dream with Buffy sandwiched between Angel and Spike.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Ok, I'm about done with this comic stuff lol...
Having said that--brings me to this...
The comics are making more sense now...especially with the timeline, the continuity of each of their arcs. What I'm understanding is Spike will have 3 more, but not sure of anymore done after those.
Angel states that Spike isn't in the history books like he is. Then he goes on to say they won't see him (Spike) coming. Judging by this Angel being Twilight, it makes sense. But, the question is: Which side is he really on?
Which brings us back to what Angel says. He's not sure what side he will be on. Uh, wouldn't you do your damnedest to make sure you are on the right side, rather than brood and pout which side you are on?
Again, this is why I love fan fiction, and why Spike's logic is better to me, that is. Gee Xander's logic makes more sense...
I'm going to be sick if they play on Buffy fantasizing over Angel while he clearly is fighting against her army. The reasons behind it...I'm still confused about: Twilight wanting the Hellmouths closed and no more magic...yet he's killing to get it...Is he looking for a JUST human world then? If that's it, then I see no famous let me gag Bangel reunion. Because isn't Buffy magically brought back from the dead? Wouldn't getting rid of magic then declare her as dead?
Having said that--brings me to this...
The comics are making more sense now...especially with the timeline, the continuity of each of their arcs. What I'm understanding is Spike will have 3 more, but not sure of anymore done after those.
Angel states that Spike isn't in the history books like he is. Then he goes on to say they won't see him (Spike) coming. Judging by this Angel being Twilight, it makes sense. But, the question is: Which side is he really on?
Which brings us back to what Angel says. He's not sure what side he will be on. Uh, wouldn't you do your damnedest to make sure you are on the right side, rather than brood and pout which side you are on?
Again, this is why I love fan fiction, and why Spike's logic is better to me, that is. Gee Xander's logic makes more sense...
I'm going to be sick if they play on Buffy fantasizing over Angel while he clearly is fighting against her army. The reasons behind it...I'm still confused about: Twilight wanting the Hellmouths closed and no more magic...yet he's killing to get it...Is he looking for a JUST human world then? If that's it, then I see no famous let me gag Bangel reunion. Because isn't Buffy magically brought back from the dead? Wouldn't getting rid of magic then declare her as dead?
Let's face it, Angel being Twilight will be wanked by Joss and the writers to make it like it wasn't so bad and Angel is still a hero and a champion. No way are they gonna have Angel's halo pemanantly tainted, and I doubt Spike will even be mentioned ever again. Since you're reading the comix BandS, does Buffy know if Spike is alive? I don't remember if anybody has ever mentioned that. I can't believe that Joss is still on that B/A ship of Buffy and Angel 4EVA!!! ERRGH! And that kiss cover and the lovey dovey one actually made my stomach hurt, I swear.
I can just see it now....
BUFFY: Oh Angel, my love I know you've been stalking around and terrorizing me for a year and trying to kill me, and you had our castle blown up and some of my Slayers have died, but I know you had a good reason, my love, cause you're Angel and you know what's best for me and our love is FOREVA! And I was so wrong about everything and I've really screwed up so I need you to put me on the right path. It doesn't matter that you're a mass murderer, I think that's so HOT! And can I has some smoochies nao plz?
ANGEL: Oh Buffy, I forgive you for doubting me, cause you know I do all these things for you cause I know what's best for you.You know I'm always right when it comes to your life.And I really didn't mean to be a mass murdering psycopath, but it was the only way. sweetie. Yes I can give you the smoochies nao. 
Forgive the sarcasm and cynicism, but right now that's really how I think they'll play it. Spike will be forgotten and never shall his name be spoken.
Here's a link for the Spike comic...who knows if it's a real cover,but it's SPIKE and he's cool and he's setting what looks like Twilight's mask on fire. LOL *iz happy*
ryalltime.blogspot.com/2010/01/canon-fire.html
Jan 10 2010 04:31 am #96coalitiongirl
Ami- ROFL at your "script"... I knew there was a reason they call him TWILIGHT! *pulls on her "and then Buffy staked Edward" t-shirt*.
Are we positive that this whole thing isn't an April Fool's scam?
And I'm almost positive that Buffy doesn't know about Spike.
It's funny- if this were a fanfic, I'd really enjoy it. Because I'd trust the writer to put Spike in there in an perfect, apropos way, and help Buffy- or even Angel!- in a believable manner. And Buffy would react properly to Angel being Twilight. It's sad how I don't trust Joss that much with his own characters.
(Another idea- But maybe Angel's right. Maybe Twilight's not the bad guy, and Buffy and her team is way off base (to borrow some of the concepts from the other current BSV comics thread).
Either way, I don't think they can cross over with Angel and NOT connect Spike to it. I'm still hoping that these covers are there only to make the ultimate surprise of the spuffy reunion even more unexpected. The cover Ami's posted seems to indicate that Spike's going to play a role. And they wouldn't be that insensitive to the spuffy fans, right? I mean, we're, like, half the fanbase! *keeps dreaming*
Are we positive that this whole thing isn't an April Fool's scam?
And I'm almost positive that Buffy doesn't know about Spike.
It's funny- if this were a fanfic, I'd really enjoy it. Because I'd trust the writer to put Spike in there in an perfect, apropos way, and help Buffy- or even Angel!- in a believable manner. And Buffy would react properly to Angel being Twilight. It's sad how I don't trust Joss that much with his own characters.
(Another idea- But maybe Angel's right. Maybe Twilight's not the bad guy, and Buffy and her team is way off base (to borrow some of the concepts from the other current BSV comics thread).
Either way, I don't think they can cross over with Angel and NOT connect Spike to it. I'm still hoping that these covers are there only to make the ultimate surprise of the spuffy reunion even more unexpected. The cover Ami's posted seems to indicate that Spike's going to play a role. And they wouldn't be that insensitive to the spuffy fans, right? I mean, we're, like, half the fanbase! *keeps dreaming*
Jan 10 2010 04:32 am #97coalitiongirl
Oh, right, and does anyone read the Angel comics? How do they tie into the whole Angel-being-Twilight thing?
Twilight/Angel/Angelus has to be presented or "wanked" as you state so that he is still a viable character for the other company - The last we see of Angel/Angelus in his own comic series is being wrapped up like a mummy with tubes attached to his body - If you read the Fray graphic novel you will know that in that future a virus or s drug of some type is being used to infect the population - This could very well be the vampire blood that is used in that Fray future.
Have to say that as a Spike fan, just the very little that I have seen of his treatment with this new writer, don't think that Spike is going to get much respect. I really really hope that I am wrong - but he is given the comic side kick treatment again. I will scan and post the panels for you to see.
Brian Lynch however has always done a very good treatment of the Spike character - He genuinely likes and respects the character and his role in both Buffy and AtS.
Have to say that as a Spike fan, just the very little that I have seen of his treatment with this new writer, don't think that Spike is going to get much respect. I really really hope that I am wrong - but he is given the comic side kick treatment again. I will scan and post the panels for you to see.
Brian Lynch however has always done a very good treatment of the Spike character - He genuinely likes and respects the character and his role in both Buffy and AtS.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
coalitiongirl--If I'm not mistaken, but I'd have to check with my brother (he knows more)--The timelines are different. I believe Buffy happens a year or so after Season 5? So taking that into account and then the fact the timeline for the After The Fall the time there is a matter of weeks, not a lot of time has passed? It's from my understanding of skimming what I have. I have to sit down and read them...even tho I don't want to! I could skim.
Hmm nmcil saw that one where Angel is tubed...this could lead to him possibly becoming a vampire who could fly? It would give leeway to what is going on.
I just think they are pulling everything they have seen, heard, or wish to happen---then putting it to paper. The comics have taken a turn like you say. I see what you were saying.
So my guess is that the comics are becoming some fan wanked series...which is sad. That's why they have fan fiction for, lol. Or should the new comics be called Fanon Aftermath? Because, I'm not entirely sure if Joss has say on the newer editions? What it sounds like is the arcs are being written and then we start to see Angel and Spike back on Buffy...This is what I understood from some of the Q&A's and then listening to Brian Lynch. He does want a Spike series...which is in the works...He doesn't say anything against the fact of Spike crossing over to Buffy at all.
And no there is no mention except her 'dirty' mind sandwiching herself between Angel and Spike.
I do have to admit that after reading Asylum...I do ship Spike with another girl...and from what I understand Brian Lynch hopes to uses her in the Spike series...as a possible love interest. Her name is Beck, she is a firestarter? Best way to describe her. I know insane she could dust him...but I wonder about that...They seemed to have some amazing connection just as he did with Fred/Illyria.
I know gasp shock...the horror...someone other than Buffy. If this is truly canon then...yes him with this chick Beck. Definitely. IF not...still Buffy in our world...that is.
Hmm nmcil saw that one where Angel is tubed...this could lead to him possibly becoming a vampire who could fly? It would give leeway to what is going on.
I just think they are pulling everything they have seen, heard, or wish to happen---then putting it to paper. The comics have taken a turn like you say. I see what you were saying.
So my guess is that the comics are becoming some fan wanked series...which is sad. That's why they have fan fiction for, lol. Or should the new comics be called Fanon Aftermath? Because, I'm not entirely sure if Joss has say on the newer editions? What it sounds like is the arcs are being written and then we start to see Angel and Spike back on Buffy...This is what I understood from some of the Q&A's and then listening to Brian Lynch. He does want a Spike series...which is in the works...He doesn't say anything against the fact of Spike crossing over to Buffy at all.
And no there is no mention except her 'dirty' mind sandwiching herself between Angel and Spike.
I do have to admit that after reading Asylum...I do ship Spike with another girl...and from what I understand Brian Lynch hopes to uses her in the Spike series...as a possible love interest. Her name is Beck, she is a firestarter? Best way to describe her. I know insane she could dust him...but I wonder about that...They seemed to have some amazing connection just as he did with Fred/Illyria.
I know gasp shock...the horror...someone other than Buffy. If this is truly canon then...yes him with this chick Beck. Definitely. IF not...still Buffy in our world...that is.
The creators and Joss Whedon have the stories and over all saga of The Buffyverse and Angelverse that they want to create, but from the fandom, they must know that the majority of the fandom loves both Buffy and Spike - they are the characters, IMO, that have become the iconic characters of the series. The only, as far as I know, comic that has made the Best Seller listing of the NYT is a Spike comic. I suppose that there are others by now, with the big Buffy-Satsu issue and maybe the first issue of AtF - but that Spike made that list should tell them something.
My personal opinion is that it is still too early for the big "move on from Buffy" transition for Spike - what do the rest of you think? Is it too early for Spike to become involved romantically with another female character or love interest? Was the Spike-Illyria/Fred the testing ground for this potential "move on" Spike phase?
Tragically we lost Andy Hallett and Lorne plus Wesley - they would have been perfect partners and way to break off Spike from his immediate ties to Angel/Angelus and his continuing story.
"Hmm nmcil saw that one where Angel is tubed...this could lead to him possibly becoming a vampire who could fly? It would give leeway to what is going on."
It not so much that Angel/Angelus from his timeline that will ultimately become Twilight, but that his blood will be the means to create the infection that is at play in the Fray timeline.
My personal opinion is that it is still too early for the big "move on from Buffy" transition for Spike - what do the rest of you think? Is it too early for Spike to become involved romantically with another female character or love interest? Was the Spike-Illyria/Fred the testing ground for this potential "move on" Spike phase?
Tragically we lost Andy Hallett and Lorne plus Wesley - they would have been perfect partners and way to break off Spike from his immediate ties to Angel/Angelus and his continuing story.
"Hmm nmcil saw that one where Angel is tubed...this could lead to him possibly becoming a vampire who could fly? It would give leeway to what is going on."
It not so much that Angel/Angelus from his timeline that will ultimately become Twilight, but that his blood will be the means to create the infection that is at play in the Fray timeline.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 10 2010 06:41 pm #101coalitiongirl
My personal opinion is that it is still too early for the big "move on from Buffy" transition for Spike - what do the rest of you think? Is it too early for Spike to become involved romantically with another female character or love interest? Was the Spike-Illyria/Fred the testing ground for this potential "move on" Spike phase?
The Spuffy fan in me wants to say no, but I honestly think that after he spent a year making a conscious decision NOT to see Buffy, he was able to develop into his own man. Before, he was just good-guy-because-of-Buffy, but after AtS S5, he became just good-guy-no-matter-what. So I do think that he's capable of being with someone else now...but all bets are off if he sees Buffy again.
The Spuffy fan in me wants to say no, but I honestly think that after he spent a year making a conscious decision NOT to see Buffy, he was able to develop into his own man. Before, he was just good-guy-because-of-Buffy, but after AtS S5, he became just good-guy-no-matter-what. So I do think that he's capable of being with someone else now...but all bets are off if he sees Buffy again.
Jan 10 2010 07:32 pm #102slaymesoftly
Moderator
Spike loves women, and he doesn't enjoy being alone. I can easily see him moving on in the sense of becoming involved with another woman. Particularly because, in canon, he has chosen not to go to Buffy. Doesn't mean I think he would have moved on emotionally, or that Buffy couldn't talk him out of it; but I don't seem him being alone if there were a woman he liked enough. I don't see souled Spike using Harmony as he did in season IV and V, though. But, Fred/Illyria - yes, I can see that. He is an affectionate and sensual creature and I can definitely see him becoming involved with someone else.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jan 10 2010 09:19 pm #103SpaceLord
Guest
I just wanna rant about people flying and new suprepowers, I mean this is exactly why I tend to think comics and soaps are written by the same writers cause it's so far out there it just becomes a joke in the end.
My sleeping patterns are all wonky! LOL...
I agree slaymesoftly...he does love women...and sex, but his heart? I think that is one thing he is entirely too protective of. He gave his heart to three women--Cecily, Dru, and then Buffy. That is romantically speaking terms. Fred I think was on a different level...so the kiss we see with him and Illyria--I believe that it was just a kiss. Fred is gone. Yes her 'humanity' still lingers within Illyria, but from what I gathered between Spike and Illyria--it was that problem. He cares for Fred in a completely different level, but Illyria makes him feel something else because of her strength. Well, that's what I am assuming. He does like his women with some sort of strength-whether it's inner or outer--but that doesn't mean he will let his heart go so easily.
I have to say after reading the hilarious comic #26--where Spike is Angel, and Angel is Angel--I have a very bad feeling Spike has moved on.
Not to spoil anyone but during it he states:
Spike as Angel: I find the source, I cut it off at the knees, I sulk away into the shadows, I sit alone in a dark room, I think about Buffy, I sleep, I do the whole thing again tomorrow.
But, I haven't read once--in either Angel, Spike, or Buffyverses--Spike thinking of Buffy. Angel has said they moved on from fighting over the same girl...and I think we know who. But that Spike voicing as Angel now realizes Angel thinks about Buffy more than he lets on...this is writers setting up the stage (well, I think so) for Bangel reunion. As far as a Spuffy reunion...I have this horrible feeling that everything we saw on the series was nothing to Buffy and still more to Spike...yet that's definitely not what my eyes saw...I saw the depth of emotion they went through at the end for it to matter.
Bet they make the Spike and Buffy reunion awkward at best and nothing like with Angel because in the end it's always going to be Bangel to those writers...which I still have tons of problems with. Angel was worse than Spike...Angel was cursed...Spike chose his soul...should I go on?
But if we are talking canon and not wishing...then I choose Spike with someone who wants and needs him in an equal sense...Buffy can watch in horror as she watches the best thing she could have had walk away...and she settles down with Mr. Broodypire....oh wait does he get the Shanshu? Me thinks no, he signed that away or was that a falsity?
I also think they specifically wrote Spike that way--he doesn't enjoy being alone. They made him the epitome of 'loves bitch', but gave him the better journey (I'd say). I really don't like how they portray this curse as the better of the two, and that Angel/us wanted this...I'm thinking a big fat no he didn't! I know no one is perfect and ladidada...and all that, but how can they assume souled Angel was so perfectly good and righteous? Why because now that I have seen how Spike has been Angel...we can attest to it now because the writers say so? I don't buy it, but oh well...
I agree the comics are a fun read some of the time...but considering it canon? Nah...it's too over the top. I mean Jane even said she wanted to go the route of Superman and all these powers...
I see a blah reunion for Spike and Buffy, but I wouldn't put it past Buffy and her 'jealous' self to get bitter when she sees he has moved on after she has been angry he didn't tell her he was back from dust. Because THAT isn't mentioned except in one sentence that Buffy tells Satsu then starts to cry...I'm wondering who it was she cried over or was it the generality of the comment that people she loves leaves her or she is like a pariah to relationships...And with that I will happily stick to our world of Spuffiness!
Sorry for babbling
I agree slaymesoftly...he does love women...and sex, but his heart? I think that is one thing he is entirely too protective of. He gave his heart to three women--Cecily, Dru, and then Buffy. That is romantically speaking terms. Fred I think was on a different level...so the kiss we see with him and Illyria--I believe that it was just a kiss. Fred is gone. Yes her 'humanity' still lingers within Illyria, but from what I gathered between Spike and Illyria--it was that problem. He cares for Fred in a completely different level, but Illyria makes him feel something else because of her strength. Well, that's what I am assuming. He does like his women with some sort of strength-whether it's inner or outer--but that doesn't mean he will let his heart go so easily.
I have to say after reading the hilarious comic #26--where Spike is Angel, and Angel is Angel--I have a very bad feeling Spike has moved on.
Not to spoil anyone but during it he states:
Spike as Angel: I find the source, I cut it off at the knees, I sulk away into the shadows, I sit alone in a dark room, I think about Buffy, I sleep, I do the whole thing again tomorrow.
But, I haven't read once--in either Angel, Spike, or Buffyverses--Spike thinking of Buffy. Angel has said they moved on from fighting over the same girl...and I think we know who. But that Spike voicing as Angel now realizes Angel thinks about Buffy more than he lets on...this is writers setting up the stage (well, I think so) for Bangel reunion. As far as a Spuffy reunion...I have this horrible feeling that everything we saw on the series was nothing to Buffy and still more to Spike...yet that's definitely not what my eyes saw...I saw the depth of emotion they went through at the end for it to matter.
Bet they make the Spike and Buffy reunion awkward at best and nothing like with Angel because in the end it's always going to be Bangel to those writers...which I still have tons of problems with. Angel was worse than Spike...Angel was cursed...Spike chose his soul...should I go on?
But if we are talking canon and not wishing...then I choose Spike with someone who wants and needs him in an equal sense...Buffy can watch in horror as she watches the best thing she could have had walk away...and she settles down with Mr. Broodypire....oh wait does he get the Shanshu? Me thinks no, he signed that away or was that a falsity?
I also think they specifically wrote Spike that way--he doesn't enjoy being alone. They made him the epitome of 'loves bitch', but gave him the better journey (I'd say). I really don't like how they portray this curse as the better of the two, and that Angel/us wanted this...I'm thinking a big fat no he didn't! I know no one is perfect and ladidada...and all that, but how can they assume souled Angel was so perfectly good and righteous? Why because now that I have seen how Spike has been Angel...we can attest to it now because the writers say so? I don't buy it, but oh well...
I agree the comics are a fun read some of the time...but considering it canon? Nah...it's too over the top. I mean Jane even said she wanted to go the route of Superman and all these powers...
I see a blah reunion for Spike and Buffy, but I wouldn't put it past Buffy and her 'jealous' self to get bitter when she sees he has moved on after she has been angry he didn't tell her he was back from dust. Because THAT isn't mentioned except in one sentence that Buffy tells Satsu then starts to cry...I'm wondering who it was she cried over or was it the generality of the comment that people she loves leaves her or she is like a pariah to relationships...And with that I will happily stick to our world of Spuffiness!
Sorry for babbling
"Sorry for babbling "
It's a good babble - excellent points.
With Issue 26, I was very disappointed that they put Spike in the little brother role, looking up to Big Brother Angel/Angelus and they continue with the treatment of Spike being the lesser of the two. I still don't get why Angel/Angelus is the BIG HERO of The Return - WAS Angel/Angelus fighting that last battle by himself, Wesley is the character that gave him the plan on how to get back - is he a hero because by some miracle his gigantic plan to take out the The Circle of Black Thorn was set right. How is he the Top Dog of Heroland when his acquisition of that soul was not even something that he sought out - Angel is the most extreme case of fortune and serendipity, plain old Good Luck.
And you know what - if all this ends up with Buffy still being in love with him and still clinging to that love they shared, Buffy will end up, In My Eyes, as one of the saddest cases of women in film, and now with the comics, we can add books as well. For Joss Whedon and all the writers to leave her there will have done women a great injustice. Does the character and the creators of Buffy ever look in a mirror and ask what kind of a person could with premeditation and clear conscience plan and accept as right and justifiable the killing of another human being, to sacrifice one life to save the life of your lover.
I am a heck of a lot more interested in seeing just what story Joss Whedon is going to tell, what statement he is making about his characters and world view, than I am about the work itself. What is being done thus far with the Spike character, IMVHO, is dishonest. I expect that I will be proven totally wrong because, frankly I want to believe in him and the work he was doing with the TV series. There is a reason that I liked Andrew so much, I want to believe and I want to trust that he respects the work and powerful story that was created in the Spike Journey - it is total nonsense to have used those ending series visuals and all that symbolism and then toss the character over to play comic relief or to ignore, what is in my opinion, the best, more dramatic and powerful story of the series.
"It's a good babble - excellent points.
With Issue 26, I was very disappointed that they put Spike in the little brother role, looking up to Big Brother Angel/Angelus and they continue with the treatment of Spike being the lesser of the two. I still don't get why Angel/Angelus is the BIG HERO of The Return - WAS Angel/Angelus fighting that last battle by himself, Wesley is the character that gave him the plan on how to get back - is he a hero because by some miracle his gigantic plan to take out the The Circle of Black Thorn was set right. How is he the Top Dog of Heroland when his acquisition of that soul was not even something that he sought out - Angel is the most extreme case of fortune and serendipity, plain old Good Luck.
And you know what - if all this ends up with Buffy still being in love with him and still clinging to that love they shared, Buffy will end up, In My Eyes, as one of the saddest cases of women in film, and now with the comics, we can add books as well. For Joss Whedon and all the writers to leave her there will have done women a great injustice. Does the character and the creators of Buffy ever look in a mirror and ask what kind of a person could with premeditation and clear conscience plan and accept as right and justifiable the killing of another human being, to sacrifice one life to save the life of your lover.
I am a heck of a lot more interested in seeing just what story Joss Whedon is going to tell, what statement he is making about his characters and world view, than I am about the work itself. What is being done thus far with the Spike character, IMVHO, is dishonest. I expect that I will be proven totally wrong because, frankly I want to believe in him and the work he was doing with the TV series. There is a reason that I liked Andrew so much, I want to believe and I want to trust that he respects the work and powerful story that was created in the Spike Journey - it is total nonsense to have used those ending series visuals and all that symbolism and then toss the character over to play comic relief or to ignore, what is in my opinion, the best, more dramatic and powerful story of the series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
nmcil, you've just said everything I feel in such a passionate, well thought out matter. I just want Buffy and the Scoobies, but especially Buffy ,to acknowledge that what Spike did at the Hellmouth MATTERED. That his sacrifice was important and that he Matters and if it wasn't for him they'd probably all be dead. If like you said that's how Buffy ends, she will be the most pathetic female character EVER. And please stop making Angel into The Big Hero all the time and Spike the goofy younger brother who worships him. That's not Spike. Please Joss can we at least get that? This is not S4 Spike...the wacky next door neighbor, for pete's sake. He's a Hero who sacrificed himself for the world, in case you forgot. When exactly did Angel do that?
Spike's journey was one of the best stories I've ever seen told on a TV series and Spike is one of the best characters to ever appear on TV and to throw that away for comic relief is totally sad. IMO. Let's hope the new Spike comic changes that. I'll keep holding out hope, tho every new development makes it fade a little more.
Spike's journey was one of the best stories I've ever seen told on a TV series and Spike is one of the best characters to ever appear on TV and to throw that away for comic relief is totally sad. IMO. Let's hope the new Spike comic changes that. I'll keep holding out hope, tho every new development makes it fade a little more.
I so should be in bed!!! LOL...
Just out of curiosity, and in no way says ill of David (whom I'm not a big fan of), when was the last time he showed up to a Con, or an event for that matter? Does he even care for this fandom or is it all about Bones now?
Please don't take that the wrong way...it's just I noticed that the major stars are rarely there...heck Sarah was barely at many panels...
It's amazing how both Nicholas and James (among some others) try their hardest to attend these to please their fan base...Is this a 'I'm too good for those events' types and they just show up for other type of events that are more 'star' related.
I just think that it, and please I'm not star wanking, it shows and is quite telling to the fan base.
Nmcil and Ami I completely agree...The majority are Bangel writers--so they are going to pretty much piss off a lot of the fan base...Because Spuffy sites seem to take up a good majority of the fan base, am I right? I have seen very few Bangel sites...thinks at one time I came across more Biley sites than Bangel sites...but that was a few years back.
Having Spike as the secondary character I found lame...until I read all the Spike centered comics...I was in heaven...then I hear about Spike's own series coming up, but featuring Angel in them as a secondary re-occurring character...I was definitely shaking my gourd, lol! When I read and I do believe heard on an interview with Brian Lynch that he plans to bring back Beck...I was, at first, uh-oh, that could be bad for Buffy...because the chemistry between these two was undeniable...forget Spidey chick...she just lusted after him...Spike was genuinely intrigued by little miss firestarter...So if Joss disregards everything Spike did at the end with Buffy...then I will be pleading with Brian to please make our Vamp happy...and I can definitely see it with Beck and Spike...So would that ship be Bike or Speck...hmmm lol. I just wish and hope Spike gets his due credit or ffs stop making him play second fiddle!
Just out of curiosity, and in no way says ill of David (whom I'm not a big fan of), when was the last time he showed up to a Con, or an event for that matter? Does he even care for this fandom or is it all about Bones now?
Please don't take that the wrong way...it's just I noticed that the major stars are rarely there...heck Sarah was barely at many panels...
It's amazing how both Nicholas and James (among some others) try their hardest to attend these to please their fan base...Is this a 'I'm too good for those events' types and they just show up for other type of events that are more 'star' related.
I just think that it, and please I'm not star wanking, it shows and is quite telling to the fan base.
Nmcil and Ami I completely agree...The majority are Bangel writers--so they are going to pretty much piss off a lot of the fan base...Because Spuffy sites seem to take up a good majority of the fan base, am I right? I have seen very few Bangel sites...thinks at one time I came across more Biley sites than Bangel sites...but that was a few years back.
Having Spike as the secondary character I found lame...until I read all the Spike centered comics...I was in heaven...then I hear about Spike's own series coming up, but featuring Angel in them as a secondary re-occurring character...I was definitely shaking my gourd, lol! When I read and I do believe heard on an interview with Brian Lynch that he plans to bring back Beck...I was, at first, uh-oh, that could be bad for Buffy...because the chemistry between these two was undeniable...forget Spidey chick...she just lusted after him...Spike was genuinely intrigued by little miss firestarter...So if Joss disregards everything Spike did at the end with Buffy...then I will be pleading with Brian to please make our Vamp happy...and I can definitely see it with Beck and Spike...So would that ship be Bike or Speck...hmmm lol. I just wish and hope Spike gets his due credit or ffs stop making him play second fiddle!
Jan 11 2010 10:02 am #108Niori
Guest
Wow- if Angel really is Twilight and that kissing him thing is the real deal, then Buffy just became the most deranged woman in fiction imo. Really, I agree BVuffy's love for Angel can survive a lot (not that that's necessarily a good thing, but that's another subject altogether), but the mass murder of her Slayers? If that;s the case, then not only is Buffy completely messed up, so are the writers- that's taking Bangel way to far.
Oh, and there's no way Buffy could be considered a good guy if that happens- there's no way her Slayer army would trust a leader who forgave the man who engeniered the slaughter of a large chunck of their fellow Slayers. They'd label her the enemy so fast, and I can't see the Scoobies sticking with her in that either.
As for Spike moving on, as much as I'd love a Spuffy reunion, I'd much rather have Spike move on and be happy than Spike still being hurt by Buffy's unrequited love/idoicy. I love Spuffy, but I love Spike more. And though I haven't read the comics as more than a passing glance whenever I'm inChapters and I don't really know this Beck girl, all the forums seem to think sheand Spike have a lot of chem, so I'd be more than willing to give that paira chance if I can't get my happy Spuffy.
Oh, and there's no way Buffy could be considered a good guy if that happens- there's no way her Slayer army would trust a leader who forgave the man who engeniered the slaughter of a large chunck of their fellow Slayers. They'd label her the enemy so fast, and I can't see the Scoobies sticking with her in that either.
As for Spike moving on, as much as I'd love a Spuffy reunion, I'd much rather have Spike move on and be happy than Spike still being hurt by Buffy's unrequited love/idoicy. I love Spuffy, but I love Spike more. And though I haven't read the comics as more than a passing glance whenever I'm inChapters and I don't really know this Beck girl, all the forums seem to think sheand Spike have a lot of chem, so I'd be more than willing to give that paira chance if I can't get my happy Spuffy.
Jan 11 2010 01:43 pm #109slaymesoftly
Moderator
Bands - the cons are about several things, none of which David particularly needs. He did very few cons even back when he was on Buffy. He has his own very successful series now where he is playing a totally new character. As a working actor, it's not in his best interest to spend time dwelling on one that he hasn't played in many years. He also probably doesn't need the money. Nor does Sarah, nor does Allyson. Nick struggles to get work. It's in his best interest to get his name and face out there as much as possible; and to get the paycheck. James is very good about doing these things - but he does a lot of them on his own, and he does a lot of them for other shows - movies he's done or other TV things like Torchwood and Smallville. He is good about giving back to the fans, but he's also picking up a nice paycheck every time he does one.
Angel is the star of the comics because they are Angel comics. Just as AtS was Angel's show. That's why Spike is playing second banana. You don't bring in another character and allow him to overshadow your "star" whether it's a TV show or a comic book. Spike will get to be the star in his own comics.
Personally, I think Joss is too smart to piss off all the Spuffy lovers by putting Buffy back with Angel on any sort of permanent basis - but we'll see. That doesn't mean I think he's going to give her Spike, either, though. He doesn't believe in happy romantic endings - in case you haven't noticed. *g*
Angel is the star of the comics because they are Angel comics. Just as AtS was Angel's show. That's why Spike is playing second banana. You don't bring in another character and allow him to overshadow your "star" whether it's a TV show or a comic book. Spike will get to be the star in his own comics.
Personally, I think Joss is too smart to piss off all the Spuffy lovers by putting Buffy back with Angel on any sort of permanent basis - but we'll see. That doesn't mean I think he's going to give her Spike, either, though. He doesn't believe in happy romantic endings - in case you haven't noticed. *g*
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Images out of context don't really mean anything outside of what the viewer brings in - That, and kudos again to Jo Chen for a stunning image, cover image of Buffy and Angel/Angelus could mean so many things - it could very easily be Angel/Angelus remembering his time with her, it could be Buffy regretting things that have past in her life, all the "everyone leave me thing" - it could be Angel/Angelus mind being searched while he is on that stretcher and having his blood drawn.
While it sounds totally overboard for the Spuffy fans to abandon Joss Whedon's comic business if he does go the Bangel Route - I think that he would lose a lot of the paying customers. I am so totally against this relationship that I would be one of those that would no longer spend any money on The Buffyverse comics.
Ditto, slaymesoftly, on your comments regarding Cons - Bones fans and Angel fan are not necessarily the same - I saw one episode of Bones and never bothered with another while I love watching Castle. I think I have seen one, maybe two, episode of HIMYM. I understand how the actors that are getting regular work with very large and popular projects would not want to keep their association with a past performance, and especially not a "genre" show always in the public. Particularly in today's entertainment business where so much has become performers being cast in the same type of roles again and again. Especially if you are still young and have many years ahead for your career. I am sure that James Marsters would not have done "High Plains Invaders" if he was being offered better parts - and with "Dragonball" being such a disappointment at the box office and with many of the Dragonball Fandom, his opportunities in dramatic and outstanding films just get harder to come by. That is why I so fervently hope that his time with the new Battlestar Galactica Caprica series is successful. HOPE that some of your watched the BSG film on SyFy last night.
I just wish that Spike was not jerked around playing "comic relief" - I don't particularly care for the "looking up the Big Brother" treatment but it's the "dumbing down" that I really object to. And the first issue with Bill Willingham is, IMO, an example of how this "comic relief" detracts so much from his character - he is made to look like a total simpleton in this first issue - it can't even be called funny in my opinion. I will post the panels right after I finish here -
While it sounds totally overboard for the Spuffy fans to abandon Joss Whedon's comic business if he does go the Bangel Route - I think that he would lose a lot of the paying customers. I am so totally against this relationship that I would be one of those that would no longer spend any money on The Buffyverse comics.
Ditto, slaymesoftly, on your comments regarding Cons - Bones fans and Angel fan are not necessarily the same - I saw one episode of Bones and never bothered with another while I love watching Castle. I think I have seen one, maybe two, episode of HIMYM. I understand how the actors that are getting regular work with very large and popular projects would not want to keep their association with a past performance, and especially not a "genre" show always in the public. Particularly in today's entertainment business where so much has become performers being cast in the same type of roles again and again. Especially if you are still young and have many years ahead for your career. I am sure that James Marsters would not have done "High Plains Invaders" if he was being offered better parts - and with "Dragonball" being such a disappointment at the box office and with many of the Dragonball Fandom, his opportunities in dramatic and outstanding films just get harder to come by. That is why I so fervently hope that his time with the new Battlestar Galactica Caprica series is successful. HOPE that some of your watched the BSG film on SyFy last night.
I just wish that Spike was not jerked around playing "comic relief" - I don't particularly care for the "looking up the Big Brother" treatment but it's the "dumbing down" that I really object to. And the first issue with Bill Willingham is, IMO, an example of how this "comic relief" detracts so much from his character - he is made to look like a total simpleton in this first issue - it can't even be called funny in my opinion. I will post the panels right after I finish here -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Of course Angel is the hero of his comics and his show, but I agree with nmcil...Spike doesn't have to be made the comic relief, Angel loving little brother,dumb jerk. That's not Spike. Yeah, he's snarky and that's fine , but he's much more than that. And making Spike out to be an idiot just to make the Hero Angel look better is crappy writing and doesn't say much about the Hero either.
Can't wait to see the panels nmcil...even tho I'll probably just get p***** off!
Can't wait to see the panels nmcil...even tho I'll probably just get p***** off!
Link for large image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4267324013/sizes/o/” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
link for large image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4267318617/sizes/o/
This is the one that I find particularly annoying - when was Spike ever like this in the series? This seems just totally OOC from the character of the series - Maybe this is the first start of the "let's move Spike on to another woman" move. This is totally asinine treatment for the character.
these people character are the new AI team - George (telepathic fish) you probably all know, black haired women is a werepanther, the Blondie haired handsome next to her is an Angel, and the Blondie next to Spike is Kate from the series.
This is the one that I find particularly annoying - when was Spike ever like this in the series? This seems just totally OOC from the character of the series - Maybe this is the first start of the "let's move Spike on to another woman" move. This is totally asinine treatment for the character.
these people character are the new AI team - George (telepathic fish) you probably all know, black haired women is a werepanther, the Blondie haired handsome next to her is an Angel, and the Blondie next to Spike is Kate from the series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Of course, not all of the series has this treatment - especially AfF - Spike is given much more of a hero/champion role, but there is a lot more of this in the later next phase of the series. I don't find this funny, what do you think?
Link to larger image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4267318749/sizes/o/
Link to larger image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4267318749/sizes/o/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yeah I agree , it's not funny. Spike comes off like a sexist a**hole or something and totally obnoxious. I mean come on " How hot is the client? And does she need immediate comforting?" Totally cringe worthy. And now he has to be third banana to Connor too? Bad enough that he's Angel's sidekick. BLAH!!
I stopped reading the Angel comics too, so I don't really know what's going on and this just annoys me. But it's good to see what you mean nmcil, about the treatment of Spike.
btw...can you post a link for the larger image for the last one...it's too small to read.
I stopped reading the Angel comics too, so I don't really know what's going on and this just annoys me. But it's good to see what you mean nmcil, about the treatment of Spike.
btw...can you post a link for the larger image for the last one...it's too small to read.
Jan 12 2010 12:27 pm #117ladycat713
Guest
I think it's official. The comic writers have gone completely off thier collective noodles.
After all the grief Spike was given for killing 2 Slayers(who he killed in fair hand to hand combat) Buffy's gonna be smacking lips with one who has killed many more and not in a fair fight.I've heard this season 8 described as the corruption of Buffy and Willow and this certainly is a way of adding more to that fire. Especially if you believe that Buffy knew the amulet would kill Spike (since we haven't had any evidence to the contrary unfortunately) and sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place. I'd rather have the explanation for that be that Buffy didn't want Angel interfering and causing trouble especially so soon after she was ousted from her own house.
A season of a series being about the corruption of the titular hero and her best friend is just sick and wrong.Season 6 was bad enough in that respect and they've taken that and gotten so much worse.
And I've always hated them acting like Spike was an also ran to Angel. Spike is definitely not stupid. Spending 100 years taking care of a psychic crazy person who cannot be helped by medication requires one to be on thier toes 24/7.He kept her from trying something completely stupid until he ended up in a wheelchair and the judge was assembled (and it's highly unlikely that he thought it would be a success) . Not to mention that the radically crazy acts like letting the Judge loose and Acathla didn't happen until Angel lost his soul. Spike probably could've talked her out of letting the Judge loose without Angel around encouraging her madness.
Angel runs off, Spike stays and fights. After loving Buffy, Spike did good without a soul even when Buffy was dead, Angel tormented her and tried to suck the world into hell.When Buffy was dead , Spike stayed and helped her friends and sister, Angel ran off to a monestary and abandoned his friends to fight without him. Once Spike decided to get a soul he went and got it, Angel's done nothing to anchor his soul.Angel said Dru was the worst thing he ever did but he doesn't do anything to help her or stop her , while Spike takes care of her for a century even though she's supposed to be his sire and take care of him.
I think that spent all time defining Angel/Angelus as the be all end all of good and evil that even after they've created characters that far surpassed him they can't bear to see thier golden boy be shown up so they try to tear down the superior characters.
We need to storm the comics offices for both the Buffy and Angel series with a mass of great fanfic writers and rewrite the comics where they went completely off base and force all the writers to have drug and psychiatric testing done.
After all the grief Spike was given for killing 2 Slayers(who he killed in fair hand to hand combat) Buffy's gonna be smacking lips with one who has killed many more and not in a fair fight.I've heard this season 8 described as the corruption of Buffy and Willow and this certainly is a way of adding more to that fire. Especially if you believe that Buffy knew the amulet would kill Spike (since we haven't had any evidence to the contrary unfortunately) and sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place. I'd rather have the explanation for that be that Buffy didn't want Angel interfering and causing trouble especially so soon after she was ousted from her own house.
A season of a series being about the corruption of the titular hero and her best friend is just sick and wrong.Season 6 was bad enough in that respect and they've taken that and gotten so much worse.
And I've always hated them acting like Spike was an also ran to Angel. Spike is definitely not stupid. Spending 100 years taking care of a psychic crazy person who cannot be helped by medication requires one to be on thier toes 24/7.He kept her from trying something completely stupid until he ended up in a wheelchair and the judge was assembled (and it's highly unlikely that he thought it would be a success) . Not to mention that the radically crazy acts like letting the Judge loose and Acathla didn't happen until Angel lost his soul. Spike probably could've talked her out of letting the Judge loose without Angel around encouraging her madness.
Angel runs off, Spike stays and fights. After loving Buffy, Spike did good without a soul even when Buffy was dead, Angel tormented her and tried to suck the world into hell.When Buffy was dead , Spike stayed and helped her friends and sister, Angel ran off to a monestary and abandoned his friends to fight without him. Once Spike decided to get a soul he went and got it, Angel's done nothing to anchor his soul.Angel said Dru was the worst thing he ever did but he doesn't do anything to help her or stop her , while Spike takes care of her for a century even though she's supposed to be his sire and take care of him.
I think that spent all time defining Angel/Angelus as the be all end all of good and evil that even after they've created characters that far surpassed him they can't bear to see thier golden boy be shown up so they try to tear down the superior characters.
We need to storm the comics offices for both the Buffy and Angel series with a mass of great fanfic writers and rewrite the comics where they went completely off base and force all the writers to have drug and psychiatric testing done.
Excerpt from Brad Meltzer MTV december interview:
MTV: While I'm sure Buffy is going to figure prominently in the arc, what other characters will be a big part of your run?
MELTZER: This is a real Buffy/Twilight story, and that’s what it’s all going to be about
Link for the January 11 Joss Whedon Interview with new Buffy images:
http://splashpage.mtv.com/2010/01/11/exclusive-joss-whedon-on-buffy-season-eight-twilight-reveal-first-look-at-issue-35/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 12 2010 05:13 pm #119Mia
Guest
Gotta say, really loving this so far. Angel being Twilight totally raises the chances of Spike being the hero in the final arc. That's how they are always used, since Buffy's series final. Spike and Angel, Angel and Spike.
Unless he's dead...again, i fully expect Spike to fight alongside Buffy.
I really hope idw loses their Angel license this year and DH gets it again.
Yes, Darkhorse has made terrible Spike comics in the past, but to be fair, they have Joss now to set them on the right path. And they have had several huge writers writing Buffy, who wouldn't love a Spike arc that's written by Jane Espenson!
Sorry not a fan of idw or Brian, i especially dislike how easily he dropped Spike in favor of Angel when he got the chance to write canon Angel series. Even tough Spike was the first character in the Buffyverse that he worked on and he only got the Angel-gig because Joss was impressed with Spike Asylum. Spike's role in after the fall was disgusting, if you're not going to use a beloved character well. Then don't use him/her at all!!
Unless he's dead...again, i fully expect Spike to fight alongside Buffy.
I really hope idw loses their Angel license this year and DH gets it again.
Yes, Darkhorse has made terrible Spike comics in the past, but to be fair, they have Joss now to set them on the right path. And they have had several huge writers writing Buffy, who wouldn't love a Spike arc that's written by Jane Espenson!
Sorry not a fan of idw or Brian, i especially dislike how easily he dropped Spike in favor of Angel when he got the chance to write canon Angel series. Even tough Spike was the first character in the Buffyverse that he worked on and he only got the Angel-gig because Joss was impressed with Spike Asylum. Spike's role in after the fall was disgusting, if you're not going to use a beloved character well. Then don't use him/her at all!!
All I know, that for me, if the latest Issue is an indication of what the Spike treatment is going to be, I wish they would not use him at all - I REALLY HATE the dumbing down of Spike and the use of the character for comic relief.
AtS would not have been renewed without Spike being brought over from Buffy - period, and that is right out of Joss Whedon's mouth.
I sure wish that some of the FF writers had taken up my offer to try and create Spuffy comics - It would have been great to have some FF Spuffy or Spike comic format out before all this Twilight came out -
AtS would not have been renewed without Spike being brought over from Buffy - period, and that is right out of Joss Whedon's mouth.
I sure wish that some of the FF writers had taken up my offer to try and create Spuffy comics - It would have been great to have some FF Spuffy or Spike comic format out before all this Twilight came out -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Well, gotta say after reading that, and then, seeing everyone's comments...I want to burn all the comics?
Harsh? Oh definitely! I think I am understanding what they are doing now...Let's see if I have this correct:
Angel starts off stepping out of the darkened shadows, and a perky blonde stares at him while he throws her a cross in a box...they do the dance of 'oooh mysterious and tall dark handsome stranger to a young teen in denial to finally falling', but let's not stop there...
He beds (and yes it takes two to tango, but I still think he should have known better) her--at just 17! He then goes evil screwing with her mind...Yet the writers never seemed to think...this soul was his curse...I'm thinking that isn't a good thing...I also have a problem with it being a curse and it being 'apparently his human soul'. Why? Well, looking at it from a logical view...From what I understand Liam wasn't a good guy.
There are a lot of descriptions out there about his former human self...the one that makes sense to me is the fact he threw away all his fathers pin money on alcohol, and women...I have heard he impregnanted a girl (he raped) and he had a sister. Judging by all of these little tidbits of info that could be embellishing or could be dead on because when he became a vampire these characteristics came out in full force killing his entire village. Just what he did to Drusilla was telling enough what he's capable of. BUT...that's vampire him. Place a curse on him giving him his soul, his human soul, would be like basically curbing him marginally. He would sense it's wrong, but Liam didn't care, from what I understood. So his soul is what I question.
He decides to finally do good after what 20 plus years in sewers...because let's face it, he was still with them during the Boxer Rebellion until finally Darla was fed up with him. This is what I don't get!!!! Darla knows of the cursed soul, yet Dru and Spike don't??????? So they both feel abandoned when Angelus leaves because of what Darla wanted...AND he did kill even if it was scum...how does that make it right to give him this great big HALO over his head????????? He was also apparently in Los Angeles at one point too...so no he wasn't off in the sewers for 100 years...SO EH try again....Which was rectified in Angel, but never corrected with Buffy. Plot hole!!!!!
I understand trying to change and better yourself because everyone does this daily...it's evolving. Ok so I give him some credit for changing from what he used to be as a human...OWN UP TO THEM THEN!!!!!! Admit it! Yet he LIES to Buffy and this is the great love of his unlife???? First off he should never had been with a teenager to begin with. That's just the wrong impression it gives to viewers...I understand mentality and such...but I don't know...it squeeks me out.
This is my problem with Angel/us in the series and the comics. The very fact they place this huge Halo over his head that he could do no wrong. That he is the messiah to all vamps because he was cursed with a soul. And the soul was another thing that I couldn't ever agree with either...So that brings me to the interview nmcil was so kind enough to post...
Angel and Buffy meet...they can't admit anything...they finally date...they sleep together...he goes evil...kills Ms. Calendar...gets sent to Hell with Cursed Soul...Buffy mourns...Angel comes back through portal...then Faith shooting Angel with the Arrow and Buffy getting bitten nearly drained...Angel and Buffy dancing around being together and to just being friends...Spike telling them how it is...Then Angel going off into the smoky sunset...so to speak.
He has his own life in LA...but they still pine away for each other, but still have other relationships. WTF????
So my theory...they have had this planned all along...They wanted it to come full circle and bring Buffy and Angel back together...
And so I, along with many others, will have sick stomachs because of it...
So Angel being Twilight, will have drama about what he has done...but Buffy won't see it because those rose glasses will come back on. Then Spike comes in...and she will be back to basically considering him second rate once again...
So I'm a tad bit pissed it's Angel...because he may have done all this horrible crap AND killed Slayers...Buffy will forgive him anything...And that's what's pathetic...Because the writers want this couple, this is why they will be given golden wings, halo's and angels playing harps in the back ground...
I'm happy with fan fiction...And Bless every Spuffy writer out there!!!!!!!
Harsh? Oh definitely! I think I am understanding what they are doing now...Let's see if I have this correct:
Angel starts off stepping out of the darkened shadows, and a perky blonde stares at him while he throws her a cross in a box...they do the dance of 'oooh mysterious and tall dark handsome stranger to a young teen in denial to finally falling', but let's not stop there...
He beds (and yes it takes two to tango, but I still think he should have known better) her--at just 17! He then goes evil screwing with her mind...Yet the writers never seemed to think...this soul was his curse...I'm thinking that isn't a good thing...I also have a problem with it being a curse and it being 'apparently his human soul'. Why? Well, looking at it from a logical view...From what I understand Liam wasn't a good guy.
There are a lot of descriptions out there about his former human self...the one that makes sense to me is the fact he threw away all his fathers pin money on alcohol, and women...I have heard he impregnanted a girl (he raped) and he had a sister. Judging by all of these little tidbits of info that could be embellishing or could be dead on because when he became a vampire these characteristics came out in full force killing his entire village. Just what he did to Drusilla was telling enough what he's capable of. BUT...that's vampire him. Place a curse on him giving him his soul, his human soul, would be like basically curbing him marginally. He would sense it's wrong, but Liam didn't care, from what I understood. So his soul is what I question.
He decides to finally do good after what 20 plus years in sewers...because let's face it, he was still with them during the Boxer Rebellion until finally Darla was fed up with him. This is what I don't get!!!! Darla knows of the cursed soul, yet Dru and Spike don't??????? So they both feel abandoned when Angelus leaves because of what Darla wanted...AND he did kill even if it was scum...how does that make it right to give him this great big HALO over his head????????? He was also apparently in Los Angeles at one point too...so no he wasn't off in the sewers for 100 years...SO EH try again....Which was rectified in Angel, but never corrected with Buffy. Plot hole!!!!!
I understand trying to change and better yourself because everyone does this daily...it's evolving. Ok so I give him some credit for changing from what he used to be as a human...OWN UP TO THEM THEN!!!!!! Admit it! Yet he LIES to Buffy and this is the great love of his unlife???? First off he should never had been with a teenager to begin with. That's just the wrong impression it gives to viewers...I understand mentality and such...but I don't know...it squeeks me out.
This is my problem with Angel/us in the series and the comics. The very fact they place this huge Halo over his head that he could do no wrong. That he is the messiah to all vamps because he was cursed with a soul. And the soul was another thing that I couldn't ever agree with either...So that brings me to the interview nmcil was so kind enough to post...
Angel and Buffy meet...they can't admit anything...they finally date...they sleep together...he goes evil...kills Ms. Calendar...gets sent to Hell with Cursed Soul...Buffy mourns...Angel comes back through portal...then Faith shooting Angel with the Arrow and Buffy getting bitten nearly drained...Angel and Buffy dancing around being together and to just being friends...Spike telling them how it is...Then Angel going off into the smoky sunset...so to speak.
He has his own life in LA...but they still pine away for each other, but still have other relationships. WTF????
So my theory...they have had this planned all along...They wanted it to come full circle and bring Buffy and Angel back together...
And so I, along with many others, will have sick stomachs because of it...
So Angel being Twilight, will have drama about what he has done...but Buffy won't see it because those rose glasses will come back on. Then Spike comes in...and she will be back to basically considering him second rate once again...
So I'm a tad bit pissed it's Angel...because he may have done all this horrible crap AND killed Slayers...Buffy will forgive him anything...And that's what's pathetic...Because the writers want this couple, this is why they will be given golden wings, halo's and angels playing harps in the back ground...
I'm happy with fan fiction...And Bless every Spuffy writer out there!!!!!!!
AMEN BandS! Just how many women, after going thru all the stuff that Buffy went thru still sit around pining for the boyfriend they had in HS when they were 16 yrs old? GMAB. It's totally ridiculous and makes Buffyone of the most PATHETIC WOMEN ever witten in fiction. I thought Joss had more respect for his character than that.And he calls himself a feminist? HAH!! The writers are a bunch of Bangels who pander to all the Bangel shippers. And don't get me started on Scott Allie,he's obnoxious, rude and HATES the character of Spike...that's why I don't want him anywhere near Spike. Brian Lynch may not be perfect, but at least he likes Spike, which is more than I can say about Allie. And reading that MTV interview makes me sick. I don't like the Twilight books, but I'm pretty sure they came out before Allie's S8 comics.
Check out this quote..."The irony that you see in the villian being name Twilight is only made stronger when you realize that Twilight's identity is Edward...I mean, Angel" he laughed. What an absolute moron! God, keep this twit away from Spike!
The dumbing down of Spike is the reason I don't read the Angel comics anymore either. Maybe his solo series will be better. *Icrosses fingers* All these people have really ruined the continuation of BtVS And AtS for me.
Check out this quote..."The irony that you see in the villian being name Twilight is only made stronger when you realize that Twilight's identity is Edward...I mean, Angel" he laughed. What an absolute moron! God, keep this twit away from Spike!
The dumbing down of Spike is the reason I don't read the Angel comics anymore either. Maybe his solo series will be better. *Icrosses fingers* All these people have really ruined the continuation of BtVS And AtS for me.
Ditto!Except...if they don't do justice to Spuffy (which we all know they won't especially considering how the comics are going) then there is the supposed Spike series that is coming up. Brian Lynch has said he is working on it among other projects. He does voice he loves the character Spike...and bringing in some past characters into Spike's issues. Like for instance Beck...Yup I'm ok with that! Just as long as our vamp is happy and being his self...not some imposter!
He is the one that did the Asylum series of comics...and they were awesome! I know some have mentioned Angel: After the Fall comics are good. They are if they are centered around Angel, which they are. Some like him, and some just can't stand him. I'm in that camp. I have to skim to get an idea about his part during After the Fall. And this brother thing? Is weird. They still treat Spike as second rate garbage.
Nmcil thanks for posting those scans...I was peeved by the fact they are making Spike out like this...Was it just me or did he tone down a bit, but was still snark and still a bit cocky but not as much? I didn't see him smoking. Drinking..yes. I didn't see the black nail polish either. Yet the comics play this up.
Basically all that hard work and with his fought for soul...he is back at square one. He is considered the brash, crude, sinister, and well pig.
Asylum he wasn't ANY OF THESE THINGS!!!!! This was him, but yet, here and there they still manage to throw in "What would the great an almighty Angel do?" UGHHHHHHH WTF????????
So yes...keep writing Spuffy or Spike centered stories please! Because, honestly, they don't do him justice at all. Brian tries but it still seems like everything Spike became was just a big fat Nothing in the series'.
I seriously laughed at that quote because the dumb a** tried to do a funny only to make himself look like an idiot! Betcha he's the one going around spilling all the damn secrets...And you're completely right...I went back to check out his comments and he's just the biggest A-hole!
Blissfully reading Spuffy now...Currently reading Tasha's Not Beneath Me. Good fic!
Also long before Sparkley vampires and Buffyverse came along...there was LJ Smith...Great writer actually. I'm on the side of eh with The Vampire Diaries televised series...but it has picked up a bit better now. Still think they should kill off Elena...Such a bad actress...she can't even cry right. No emotion at all. Everyone else...hmm they can stay. Her? Please leave lol.
But aside from reading Spuffy I am reading LJ Smith's compiled books on (and I probably should have started from the first book lol) about the Night World. Awesome series. Wish they made that into a series...One I'm reading now is called Huntress--a Vampire/human (though she didn't know she was part human until certain things happened). Can't give all the details out!
Gotta love the supernatural reading though!
Wonders if we can band together to get some sort of petition going...That if we can't get a Spike movie--maybe they can make his character better from here on in the comics?
Jan 12 2010 11:30 pm #124ladycat713
Guest
I agree her still pining for him is ridiculous. The whole thing between them is incredibly creeepy from day one. He suddenly decided to be a hero after Whistler showed her at 15 SUCKING ON A LOLLIPOP! and we all know where men's minds go with an image like that.
Angel really screwed Buffy up permanantly. You would've thought that the fact that he was willing to let her die at the hands of the Master would've killed the romance but obviously she never had any sense whatsoever. He didn't even try to revive her. He copped out by saying that vampires have no breath. Thery don't need to breathe, they have breath or they couldn't talk. In fact a vampire would probably be great at cpr since they wouldn't convert oxygent to carbon dioxide .
Buffy is not a feminist icon. She's just very strong and a good fighter. Would I want her on my side in a fight , sure. But I wouldn't want her hanging around afterwards.
Angel really screwed Buffy up permanantly. You would've thought that the fact that he was willing to let her die at the hands of the Master would've killed the romance but obviously she never had any sense whatsoever. He didn't even try to revive her. He copped out by saying that vampires have no breath. Thery don't need to breathe, they have breath or they couldn't talk. In fact a vampire would probably be great at cpr since they wouldn't convert oxygent to carbon dioxide .
Buffy is not a feminist icon. She's just very strong and a good fighter. Would I want her on my side in a fight , sure. But I wouldn't want her hanging around afterwards.
Jan 13 2010 12:18 am #125coalitiongirl
You would've thought that the fact that he was willing to let her die at the hands of the Master would've killed the romance but obviously she never had any sense whatsoever. He didn't even try to revive her. He copped out by saying that vampires have no breath. Thery don't need to breathe, they have breath or they couldn't talk. In fact a vampire would probably be great at cpr since they wouldn't convert oxygent to carbon dioxide .
In Angel's defense, I think that was an error made by the writers. They talk, and Spike smokes, so we know that they have breath, but I don't think that that occurred to Joss and co. then. They were just looking for an excuse to set the stage for the Buffy/Xander that never was, thankfully, but seemed to be planned in Season One.
In Angel's defense, I think that was an error made by the writers. They talk, and Spike smokes, so we know that they have breath, but I don't think that that occurred to Joss and co. then. They were just looking for an excuse to set the stage for the Buffy/Xander that never was, thankfully, but seemed to be planned in Season One.
Jan 13 2010 12:26 am #126Nicole
Guest
It's been said in various ways above (and better than I ever could), but when you come down to it- Angel as Twilight should be the definte end of Bangel. Forever.
I don't mind early Bangel, I really don't (though, they made it really creepy when they did the sucking on a lollipop flashback- before then it didn't screm pedophlie to me), but give it a rest already! Yes they loved each other and had the whole Romeo and Juliet thing going on, but it's over. It was over a long time ago, when Angel left. It's one of those you always remember your first love, but you move on. Or atleast, you do if you're not emotionally forzen as your 16 year old self *cough*Buffy*cough*.
And I say this not only as a Spuffy fan. but just a person in general, Buffy locking lips with somone who is responsible for the death of how many of her Slayers (in one of the little tag lines for one of the comics they say something like heavy losses to the Slayer army) is wrong on so many levels. I can't even see Bangel fans seeing the sense in that (one of my friends loves Bangel, and when I told her that Angel was Twilight she was upset because, in her words, 'damnit! Bufy can never be with Angel now, not after all Twilight's done!').
So I'm all for the storming of the writers and taking over. Coup d'etat sounds like a plan. Though, say wahst you will about the characterization of SPike in the Angel comics (I agree thon't treat him great, dumb him down and all that), but at least the whole storyline is a lot better (and more believeable) than the Buffy comics.
I don't mind early Bangel, I really don't (though, they made it really creepy when they did the sucking on a lollipop flashback- before then it didn't screm pedophlie to me), but give it a rest already! Yes they loved each other and had the whole Romeo and Juliet thing going on, but it's over. It was over a long time ago, when Angel left. It's one of those you always remember your first love, but you move on. Or atleast, you do if you're not emotionally forzen as your 16 year old self *cough*Buffy*cough*.
And I say this not only as a Spuffy fan. but just a person in general, Buffy locking lips with somone who is responsible for the death of how many of her Slayers (in one of the little tag lines for one of the comics they say something like heavy losses to the Slayer army) is wrong on so many levels. I can't even see Bangel fans seeing the sense in that (one of my friends loves Bangel, and when I told her that Angel was Twilight she was upset because, in her words, 'damnit! Bufy can never be with Angel now, not after all Twilight's done!').
So I'm all for the storming of the writers and taking over. Coup d'etat sounds like a plan. Though, say wahst you will about the characterization of SPike in the Angel comics (I agree thon't treat him great, dumb him down and all that), but at least the whole storyline is a lot better (and more believeable) than the Buffy comics.
There was something very strange from the start with the treatment of this relationship - forget all the thing about not being able to breathe and not being able to give CPR - The really important thing in the "Prophecy" Master-Buffy encounter with regards to Angel/Angelus is that he is shown reading a book, knowing full well about the prophecy and that Giles will be trying to save her, at least do something - but there is Angel/Angelus calmly reading, if I remember correctly either Sartre or some intellectual philosophy book. It was Xander who went on the "Buffy will not be alone in this" rescue plan, Angel was there only because of Xander. I don't know what the purpose for writing the arc and scene this way - If Angel/Angelus is suppose to be the Big Love of her life. Perhaps the point was that Angel was going to move on or that Xander's role was to be the Big Hero, which he was. Maybe the getting together of Xander and Buffy as the romantic couple was still being considered.
I don't really think that Joss Whedon is going to go return to that era or phase for Buffy - if it happens, I think it will be to develop Buffy and the mythology of The Slayer history and this transformation that has happened with The Slayer Army. Comic Season Eight can't be allowed to derail the business interest of IDW - somehow this all has to allow both Dark Horse and IDW to continue - unless The Buffyverse over at Dark Horse changes drastically and Buffy is killed off or she turns over the leadership to another character.
I still sort of lean toward the idea that Angel/Angelus is being used to create the means for that Fray Timeline Infection and that this next phase of the comic season will be concerned with the mind - the emotional and phychological study of the prime characters and their personal relationships.
I don't really think that Joss Whedon is going to go return to that era or phase for Buffy - if it happens, I think it will be to develop Buffy and the mythology of The Slayer history and this transformation that has happened with The Slayer Army. Comic Season Eight can't be allowed to derail the business interest of IDW - somehow this all has to allow both Dark Horse and IDW to continue - unless The Buffyverse over at Dark Horse changes drastically and Buffy is killed off or she turns over the leadership to another character.
I still sort of lean toward the idea that Angel/Angelus is being used to create the means for that Fray Timeline Infection and that this next phase of the comic season will be concerned with the mind - the emotional and phychological study of the prime characters and their personal relationships.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 13 2010 11:32 am #128ladycat713
Guest
Angel is definitely remarkably easy to talk into leaving Buffy to die without fighting to save her. He didnt try to save her then and he was easily talked into leaving in Chosen.It seems to me that it would've made sense for him to tell Buffy that he could have a lot more fighters here within hours because if they failed to stop it in Sunnydale then there would be no way to stop it from spreading.
Maybe it's that part of his character that made Spike ask if Angel never wanted to be in a fight he didn't know if he could win. Angel wants a stacked deck in a fight, The NFA fight actually may be because Angel was suicidal not because he was willing to risk his life.
The reference to 16 year old Buffy made me think of the story by coalitiongirl. It had Bangel (she gets a clue towards the end) and in it Dawn refers to Buffy as acting like a 16 year old and Buffy takes it as a compliment!
Also the mention of Sartre makes me think of another story where Spike rags on Angel for carrying around a book for decades solely as a way of saying look at me I'm deep. Angel;s response is that Spike had read it too.Spike's reaponse to that was But I understood it the first time. To me that fit's in with thier character especially if you add in Spike's books and him being caught reading them (in AYW for instance) plus Angel taking Buffy to an arthouse movie when a comedy would've been a better idea .
Spike's educated but tries to appear more streetwise and Angel tries to appear educated but his intelligence seems to be aimed towards screwing with people's heads and causing pain.
Maybe it's that part of his character that made Spike ask if Angel never wanted to be in a fight he didn't know if he could win. Angel wants a stacked deck in a fight, The NFA fight actually may be because Angel was suicidal not because he was willing to risk his life.
The reference to 16 year old Buffy made me think of the story by coalitiongirl. It had Bangel (she gets a clue towards the end) and in it Dawn refers to Buffy as acting like a 16 year old and Buffy takes it as a compliment!
Also the mention of Sartre makes me think of another story where Spike rags on Angel for carrying around a book for decades solely as a way of saying look at me I'm deep. Angel;s response is that Spike had read it too.Spike's reaponse to that was But I understood it the first time. To me that fit's in with thier character especially if you add in Spike's books and him being caught reading them (in AYW for instance) plus Angel taking Buffy to an arthouse movie when a comedy would've been a better idea .
Spike's educated but tries to appear more streetwise and Angel tries to appear educated but his intelligence seems to be aimed towards screwing with people's heads and causing pain.
Jan 13 2010 01:06 pm #129slaymesoftly
Moderator
Some good observations there, ladycat.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Curious...
Has any of the writers expressed their reasons to back why they love particular characters? I have heard some say that the writers and especially Scott Allie dislike Spike...but I have never seen a reason why when his arc was an incredible, yet painful at times, journey. I have gone back in the comics, and maybe I am missing them, but I see Scott gloss over everything and never really answer some questions. He evades a lot. You do get a vibe that he's a bit arrogant, but I am scratching my head wondering what the heck it up with the favoritism????
I mean I get it as a viewer, that I dislike certain characters...but some wrote for the show and some for the comics or both. You'd think they would have grown to love all the characters? They are all flawed from what we have seen and read. I know this is very stubborn of me, but I can't find it in me to like Angel or even Riley. And no not because of Buffy either...I just didn't like them. Xander has his issues and mistakes, but I actually grew to like him. He's not perfect and I get that. He pissed me off at times, but gotta say, him and Dawn--not a bad idea. Actually, we saw glimpses of it in Season 7 which seemed to progress from there. That's what I call a gradual relationship and I bet it is the most promising one! Well, lets hope the writers don't just say 'HEY they deserve to all be alone' or killed off...
OOh good question:
Why does anyone watch a series or read a book or a comic?
I can answer for me, lol...Because I want to run with the imagination, live inside that world. It's nice to have a place to escape from all the hardness and drama that Real Life creates. And, when I do, I want that happy ending or some closure to it. I don't know if anyone watched Dawson's Creek like I did, lol...But I have to say I always shipped Joey and Pacey. So let me tell you I was happily surprised that they were together in the end. The writers worded it at one point to sound like Joey was going to choose Dawson...except she didn't. And the way they did it was amazingly heartfelt too. One Tree Hill is very similar. Gee I think even Roswell ended on a decent note...Only one I wanted to see more of was Dark Angel...arghhh.
So wondering how it is for everyone else? What do you think goes behind the reasoning for what they do on the comics? They said they have planned Twilight long before even Stephanie Meyers books came out...Did that mean they planned it back in 2003 then? I know her books were in the works in June of 2003 and finally published on shelves by 2005. Yet, I laugh, because so many have used the word Twilight for other books too...So...I'm thinking originality is the way it's presented, I guess? I have a favorite book that also dealt with Twilight too...By Maggie Shayne...and I know there are a ton more out there...
I agree ladycat - good observations! Except in the show they treated their characters better than they do on paper, it seems. OR is that just their beloved favorite couple they treat well?
Has any of the writers expressed their reasons to back why they love particular characters? I have heard some say that the writers and especially Scott Allie dislike Spike...but I have never seen a reason why when his arc was an incredible, yet painful at times, journey. I have gone back in the comics, and maybe I am missing them, but I see Scott gloss over everything and never really answer some questions. He evades a lot. You do get a vibe that he's a bit arrogant, but I am scratching my head wondering what the heck it up with the favoritism????
I mean I get it as a viewer, that I dislike certain characters...but some wrote for the show and some for the comics or both. You'd think they would have grown to love all the characters? They are all flawed from what we have seen and read. I know this is very stubborn of me, but I can't find it in me to like Angel or even Riley. And no not because of Buffy either...I just didn't like them. Xander has his issues and mistakes, but I actually grew to like him. He's not perfect and I get that. He pissed me off at times, but gotta say, him and Dawn--not a bad idea. Actually, we saw glimpses of it in Season 7 which seemed to progress from there. That's what I call a gradual relationship and I bet it is the most promising one! Well, lets hope the writers don't just say 'HEY they deserve to all be alone' or killed off...
OOh good question:
Why does anyone watch a series or read a book or a comic?
I can answer for me, lol...Because I want to run with the imagination, live inside that world. It's nice to have a place to escape from all the hardness and drama that Real Life creates. And, when I do, I want that happy ending or some closure to it. I don't know if anyone watched Dawson's Creek like I did, lol...But I have to say I always shipped Joey and Pacey. So let me tell you I was happily surprised that they were together in the end. The writers worded it at one point to sound like Joey was going to choose Dawson...except she didn't. And the way they did it was amazingly heartfelt too. One Tree Hill is very similar. Gee I think even Roswell ended on a decent note...Only one I wanted to see more of was Dark Angel...arghhh.
So wondering how it is for everyone else? What do you think goes behind the reasoning for what they do on the comics? They said they have planned Twilight long before even Stephanie Meyers books came out...Did that mean they planned it back in 2003 then? I know her books were in the works in June of 2003 and finally published on shelves by 2005. Yet, I laugh, because so many have used the word Twilight for other books too...So...I'm thinking originality is the way it's presented, I guess? I have a favorite book that also dealt with Twilight too...By Maggie Shayne...and I know there are a ton more out there...
I agree ladycat - good observations! Except in the show they treated their characters better than they do on paper, it seems. OR is that just their beloved favorite couple they treat well?
I think that there are categories for TV viewing -
1. we just like the story and the characters - like Castle and Star Trek, BSG and Supernatural, MAD MEN
2. we LOVE a particular character - like Spock
3. obviously, some for information - news and political talk shows - which has become my prime TV viewing now.
4. educational value and entertainment - Masterpiece Theater for instance and History, National Geographic
5. programs that truly connect everything on a weekly basis - your intellect and your emotions - for me that was only Buffy and Angel
"Live inside that world" - wonderful phrase - because that is what The Whedonverse has accomplished, it made us live in that world - we did not just go every week to see the story but we went for all the questions that it made us ask about ourselves and our real world. There have been great TV shows, great dramas and great theater - but those were only for one time or a short few weeks - and so they fade from that powerful and immediate and also long lasting connection with the viewers. The only other thing that effects me the way that the Buffvyerse did is found with books, great literature and great threat re.
I'm hanging in there with Joss Whedon to see what his final statement is going to be - some for Angel - but with so many writers and Joss Whedon not able to be personally effect what happens except on a very limited way - the franchise has lost much. And with IDW, after reading the MTV Splash interview yesterday, have yet to read the one for today, - things really seem to have gotten out of control.
All those interviews with Scott Allie and his implications that the two series would eventually be reconciled and all things would come together - it gave me the impression that IDW would be working and had input for how both would be connected. After reading that "response letter" from Bill Willingham from IDW - I am now totally confused.
For readers of the comics, the idea that both publishers would eventually have their products come together into one cohesive saga made a big difference on how we started looking at Buffy on Dark Horse and Angel with IDW. Some with all that spin about No Crossovers and Business separation arrangements. It would have made a great big difference about how the readers interpreted the Twilight character and arc if those comments had not been put out into the public by the publishers and Joss Whedon. We will see what Joss intended with the Buffy-Twilight arc and how he changes his Buffyverse mythos. But I think they are mistaken if they think that it does not effect the IDW works - until all this Buffy-Twilight thing completes, the readers, like myself who came to comics just for these two stories, are left feeling little confidence for what is being published with IDW - how is this going to effect what we have read in all the Angel AfterThe Fall and the continuing story?
Here is a link to CBR site and the Joss Whedon interview - scroll down for other relevant selections.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/
1. we just like the story and the characters - like Castle and Star Trek, BSG and Supernatural, MAD MEN
2. we LOVE a particular character - like Spock
3. obviously, some for information - news and political talk shows - which has become my prime TV viewing now.
4. educational value and entertainment - Masterpiece Theater for instance and History, National Geographic
5. programs that truly connect everything on a weekly basis - your intellect and your emotions - for me that was only Buffy and Angel
"Live inside that world" - wonderful phrase - because that is what The Whedonverse has accomplished, it made us live in that world - we did not just go every week to see the story but we went for all the questions that it made us ask about ourselves and our real world. There have been great TV shows, great dramas and great theater - but those were only for one time or a short few weeks - and so they fade from that powerful and immediate and also long lasting connection with the viewers. The only other thing that effects me the way that the Buffvyerse did is found with books, great literature and great threat re.
I'm hanging in there with Joss Whedon to see what his final statement is going to be - some for Angel - but with so many writers and Joss Whedon not able to be personally effect what happens except on a very limited way - the franchise has lost much. And with IDW, after reading the MTV Splash interview yesterday, have yet to read the one for today, - things really seem to have gotten out of control.
All those interviews with Scott Allie and his implications that the two series would eventually be reconciled and all things would come together - it gave me the impression that IDW would be working and had input for how both would be connected. After reading that "response letter" from Bill Willingham from IDW - I am now totally confused.
For readers of the comics, the idea that both publishers would eventually have their products come together into one cohesive saga made a big difference on how we started looking at Buffy on Dark Horse and Angel with IDW. Some with all that spin about No Crossovers and Business separation arrangements. It would have made a great big difference about how the readers interpreted the Twilight character and arc if those comments had not been put out into the public by the publishers and Joss Whedon. We will see what Joss intended with the Buffy-Twilight arc and how he changes his Buffyverse mythos. But I think they are mistaken if they think that it does not effect the IDW works - until all this Buffy-Twilight thing completes, the readers, like myself who came to comics just for these two stories, are left feeling little confidence for what is being published with IDW - how is this going to effect what we have read in all the Angel AfterThe Fall and the continuing story?
Here is a link to CBR site and the Joss Whedon interview - scroll down for other relevant selections.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Well, after reading that I guess it's a waiting game? I noticed in italics there is more...but now the fate of Spike to be determined? Happily goes back to reading fan fiction!!!! And, what was with the pompous attitude Bill Willingham had? And Joss was really complimenting Scott Allie...ruh roh...see if he trusts this guys marbles, then to me, that screams bad news for Spike having a decent (or one we wish to happen) with Buffy. And no I'm not talking "Oh Buffy...Oh Spike"
Nmcil--I'm with you on the confusion: that guy confused me completely.
Nmcil--I'm with you on the confusion: that guy confused me completely.
Here's the second part of Joss' interview in CBR.. this is Joss talking about Spike...[quote] "You know like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I dont' think anybody's going to be gasping in horror when I say "Yes." What are they? I don't think anybody's going to be gasping in horror when I say " I'm not going to tell you." [Laugh] I guess this sounds promising? Depends what the plans are . I guess. 
At least he admits Spike is incredibly important to Buffy, that's something I suppose.
link...www.comicbookresources.com/
At least he admits Spike is incredibly important to Buffy, that's something I suppose. link...www.comicbookresources.com/
Brian Lynch post over at IDW forums regarding Spike -
What was that?
I'm worried sick, he twilight the angel now what is he going to do with Spike? What fate? Spike's overall fate?
Mr Lynch, heeeeeelp!
Oh don't be scared. Be the opposite of that, actually.
_________________
Another post at IDW forums:
Submitted by Rich Johnston
on January 11, 2010
In the recent Dark Horse Dispatch sent to retailers, Buffy The Vampire Slayer editor Scott Allie wrote;
Word got out that Twilight, our major villain from Season 8, is in fact Angel, the love of Buffy’s life. This is causing major buzz on the Internet. I was on CBR today, and on Monday Joss will be on MTV’s Splash Page to comment on this-we want to get behind this and use it to drive sales as we enter the climactic arcs.
Is it me, or did word get out… because Scott Allie did the CBR interview? But yes, it looks as if sales were the driver for this particular reveal. Scott added;
I told Brad Meltzer I was writing to you guys, and he wanted to thank you for giving him his success in comics, and to make sure you understand that what he’s doing in his four issues could bring sales back to where they were when the series started.
Buffy has always been good at getting non-comics readers into your stores-I know some of them have stopped coming in, but this arc, and the buzz that’s already started on the Internet, will get them back.
The buzz that you started Scott! But there’s more in foot for that particular issue. Buffy is going Mature Readers!
When you see Diamond Previews for Buffy #34, there’ll be a mature-themes notice. That doesn’t mean the book won’t be safe to sell younger readers-no more nudity than that great Faith cover from Buffy #9 or the Willow one-shot cover, no blood beyond what you’re used to in the book-but the story gets so intense Brad told me we had to warn people.
I’m warned! Are you warned? What about you? And you? Consider us warned, Scott, consider us warned!
Thanks for all the support you’ve given this book, and all the support you’ve given Dark Horse through the recent economic hard times. This next run of Buffy should help us all.
You know what, if only Obama would really get on board promoting Buffy #34, we would solve the economic problems of the world like that!
| Quote: |
| Check back with CBR over the next two days with even more from Joss Whedon on the impact of the Twilight reveal, the future of "Buffy" through Season 9, the fate of Spike and the finale of "Dollhouse." |
What was that?
I'm worried sick, he twilight the angel now what is he going to do with Spike? What fate? Spike's overall fate?
Mr Lynch, heeeeeelp!
Oh don't be scared. Be the opposite of that, actually.
_________________
Another post at IDW forums:
Submitted by Rich Johnston
on January 11, 2010
In the recent Dark Horse Dispatch sent to retailers, Buffy The Vampire Slayer editor Scott Allie wrote;
Word got out that Twilight, our major villain from Season 8, is in fact Angel, the love of Buffy’s life. This is causing major buzz on the Internet. I was on CBR today, and on Monday Joss will be on MTV’s Splash Page to comment on this-we want to get behind this and use it to drive sales as we enter the climactic arcs.
Is it me, or did word get out… because Scott Allie did the CBR interview? But yes, it looks as if sales were the driver for this particular reveal. Scott added;
I told Brad Meltzer I was writing to you guys, and he wanted to thank you for giving him his success in comics, and to make sure you understand that what he’s doing in his four issues could bring sales back to where they were when the series started.
Buffy has always been good at getting non-comics readers into your stores-I know some of them have stopped coming in, but this arc, and the buzz that’s already started on the Internet, will get them back.
The buzz that you started Scott! But there’s more in foot for that particular issue. Buffy is going Mature Readers!
When you see Diamond Previews for Buffy #34, there’ll be a mature-themes notice. That doesn’t mean the book won’t be safe to sell younger readers-no more nudity than that great Faith cover from Buffy #9 or the Willow one-shot cover, no blood beyond what you’re used to in the book-but the story gets so intense Brad told me we had to warn people.
I’m warned! Are you warned? What about you? And you? Consider us warned, Scott, consider us warned!
Thanks for all the support you’ve given this book, and all the support you’ve given Dark Horse through the recent economic hard times. This next run of Buffy should help us all.
You know what, if only Obama would really get on board promoting Buffy #34, we would solve the economic problems of the world like that!
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
This whole thing is getting really silly now -
Here's is what I want - IF JOSS WHEDON is eventually going to do the BUFFY-ANGEL LOVE OF MY LIFE - COME CLEAN AND DO IT AND BE DONE WITH THE DAMN THING. Has anyone actually read any where that Joss Whedon has called Angel/Angelus Buffy's True Love and the Love Of Her Life?
The only thing that I want is to see is that Huge Knife sticking in Faith's gut as a background with the hearts and flowers and kisses -
Here's is what I want - IF JOSS WHEDON is eventually going to do the BUFFY-ANGEL LOVE OF MY LIFE - COME CLEAN AND DO IT AND BE DONE WITH THE DAMN THING. Has anyone actually read any where that Joss Whedon has called Angel/Angelus Buffy's True Love and the Love Of Her Life?
The only thing that I want is to see is that Huge Knife sticking in Faith's gut as a background with the hearts and flowers and kisses -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 14 2010 04:16 am #136coalitiongirl
Nmcil, would it be totally ridiculous if I asked you to delete the Buffy/Angel image from two posts ahead? It just keeps making me angry, lol.
Hasn't Joss said that Spike was [one of] his favorite character[s]? That's why I don't understand why he'd pick Angel over him, even for the idealized Bangel relationship. Also, during the show, one of the writers (the infamous Marti Noxon, maybe?) was once quoted saying that the Bangel relationship is pretty much over. I can't imagine them picking it up now as any more than a deep connection between the two, and certainly not as a relationship. It wold be too much, even for these writers.
It just keeps making me angry, lol. Hasn't Joss said that Spike was [one of] his favorite character[s]? That's why I don't understand why he'd pick Angel over him, even for the idealized Bangel relationship. Also, during the show, one of the writers (the infamous Marti Noxon, maybe?) was once quoted saying that the Bangel relationship is pretty much over. I can't imagine them picking it up now as any more than a deep connection between the two, and certainly not as a relationship. It wold be too much, even for these writers.
Whenever Scott Allie opens his mouth, I feel like gagging. What an A hole. And he's so Bangel it's ridiculous. And I don't think Joss will ever come clean and be done with it. He loves to torment us Spuffy shippers.IMO Just look at the B/A kiss in Chosen. And this passed silly 4 exits back, now it's plain ridiculous.
<quote> The only thing that I want to see is that Huge Knife sticking in Faith's gut as a background with the hearts and flowers and kisses. <quote>
Oh that would be lovely wouldn't it?
coalitiongirl...I don't think anything is too much for these writers, unfortunately.
<quote> The only thing that I want to see is that Huge Knife sticking in Faith's gut as a background with the hearts and flowers and kisses. <quote>
Oh that would be lovely wouldn't it?
coalitiongirl...I don't think anything is too much for these writers, unfortunately.
Jan 14 2010 11:38 am #138Old fan
Guest
Cmon, we heard it straight out of Joss's mouth. Spike matters a bunches to Buffy. Disregard all those fanatical bangel shippers that try so hard to make you believe Spike is of no importance. Disregard all the crappy idw angel comics that reduce the Spike character to nothing. All of that doesn't matter, those people are just fans like us, but they have their own agenda,ideas. The only opinion that matters of Spike is Joss's. I'm going to continue reading Buffy, i hope Twlight being Angel means the character will get what he deserves, a painfull death.
There is no coming back from doing such horrible,disgusting actions with his soul intact. I predict this might be the end for bangel, Buffy will finally,hopefully lose her rose-tinted goggles.
There is no coming back from doing such horrible,disgusting actions with his soul intact. I predict this might be the end for bangel, Buffy will finally,hopefully lose her rose-tinted goggles.
Would anyone like me to post the latest images, and great conversation between Xander and Buffy? I Loved Xander's talk with Buffy - and I Really Like Xander and Dawn together - Hope that their Season Eight romance will bring out some wonderful stories for them - Of all the characters and potential couples, Xander and Dawn make sense to me. Both human, both share each other's world and work, and they are equals, unlike Riley and Buffy and their ensuing problems from differences.
I will also post the next Willingham Spike image - an extremely effective, IMO, contrast to his "dumbing down" Spike from last issue. I very much liked this second issue of his phase of the writing. I have always loved the covers for his "Fables" series - what I really like about the art in "Fables" is that it does not decline in quality beyond the Beautiful covers - the style and quality is consistent throughout the issue.
Willingham has gotten a lot of very back feedback and flak over his "response comments" to Scott Allie - he did come across as somewhat pompous - but I do agree that for some readers, the implications that both series would eventually come together into cohesive saga did make a difference on how I started reading and thinking about Angel over at IDW. I wish that Scott Allie had been a lot more careful with the information in his interviews.
I will also post the next Willingham Spike image - an extremely effective, IMO, contrast to his "dumbing down" Spike from last issue. I very much liked this second issue of his phase of the writing. I have always loved the covers for his "Fables" series - what I really like about the art in "Fables" is that it does not decline in quality beyond the Beautiful covers - the style and quality is consistent throughout the issue.
Willingham has gotten a lot of very back feedback and flak over his "response comments" to Scott Allie - he did come across as somewhat pompous - but I do agree that for some readers, the implications that both series would eventually come together into cohesive saga did make a difference on how I started reading and thinking about Angel over at IDW. I wish that Scott Allie had been a lot more careful with the information in his interviews.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 14 2010 06:15 pm #140ladycat713
Guest
It says they are hoping to get the sales back to where they were when the series started. I have a great explanation for thje sales drop- when it first started people still had hope! Now people know that this is nothing but a train wreck. I don't think they could fix this even if tehy decided that Buffy was possessed by the first evil and the Slayer army fit it's grand plan.
And I could see Xander/Dawn as a good relationship that they had grown into if it weren't for a few things. His near obsession with dictating Buffy's life and relationships (and Dawn being Buffy's sister makes that creepy enough , her supposedly being made from Buffy makes it worse) and Dawn's self sabotage of her first serious relationhip by cheating especially considering that she had to have known that her father cheated on her mother and the pain it caused. Neither are good factors to carry into a relationship.
But considering the crappiness of Season 8 a Xander/Dawn romance can't possibly make things worse. Knock on wood.
Having said that Xander will now cheat on Dawn with Buffy and Angel in a threesome or try to organize a threesome with Buffy and Dawn.
And I could see Xander/Dawn as a good relationship that they had grown into if it weren't for a few things. His near obsession with dictating Buffy's life and relationships (and Dawn being Buffy's sister makes that creepy enough , her supposedly being made from Buffy makes it worse) and Dawn's self sabotage of her first serious relationhip by cheating especially considering that she had to have known that her father cheated on her mother and the pain it caused. Neither are good factors to carry into a relationship.
But considering the crappiness of Season 8 a Xander/Dawn romance can't possibly make things worse. Knock on wood.
Having said that Xander will now cheat on Dawn with Buffy and Angel in a threesome or try to organize a threesome with Buffy and Dawn.
The entire season has been very heavy on Buffy's emotional state - so I suspect that the closing of this season will continue with lessons for Buffy about growth - understanding for herself what drives her life emotionally - running along side the Twilight arc.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 14 2010 08:54 pm #142Mia
Guest
"I will also post the next Willingham Spike image - an extremely effective, IMO, contrast to his "dumbing down" Spike from last issue. I very much liked this second issue of his phase of the writing."
Hey Nmcil, how is Spike's writing any better in the second issue?
Look forward to the pic.
Hey Nmcil, how is Spike's writing any better in the second issue?
Look forward to the pic.
Here is a good contrast to what I call the "dumbing down" of Spike - Unfortunately, and as I don't really come from a comic reading background, it appears that the needed conflict and contrast needed for the characters is done with much more simplicity and bold visuals. In the first issue Spike is depicted like a total blockhead, but this very next issue has the "contrast" with this much more sophisticated level of Spike.
He really does not have much of a part in this issue, none of the characters predominate - Angel/Angelus is the primary character and Eddie. This phase of the comics is running Parallel stories that will eventually combine - so none of the AI team is used more than any other.
All the new Buffy and Angel images can be accessed at my home page - just click on any image and it will take you to the individual images and the "all sizes" icon. It is harder to try and read them at the small size - http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
The images of Angel/Angelus and Connor's death are from the After the Fall cycle - not the current Angel story with Bill Willingham
He really does not have much of a part in this issue, none of the characters predominate - Angel/Angelus is the primary character and Eddie. This phase of the comics is running Parallel stories that will eventually combine - so none of the AI team is used more than any other.
All the new Buffy and Angel images can be accessed at my home page - just click on any image and it will take you to the individual images and the "all sizes" icon. It is harder to try and read them at the small size - http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
The images of Angel/Angelus and Connor's death are from the After the Fall cycle - not the current Angel story with Bill Willingham
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Thanks for the post nmcil...I liked the Spike/Connor, yay for a Spike I recognize. And Xander comes off as really maturing, that's nice to see. Buffy? meh. And the "Angel" comics are really well drawn , while "Buffy" is pretty bad IMO. They look like they're 12...especially Buffy. They should definitely get a new artist. IMVHO.
And Xander comes off as really maturing, that's nice to see. Buffy? meh. And the "Angel" comics are really well drawn , while "Buffy" is pretty bad IMO. They look like they're 12...especially Buffy. They should definitely get a new artist. IMVHO.Jan 15 2010 07:38 am #146BandS
Guest
Uh I don't get it...I sign in at home...it logs me out...go into work...I'm signed in...Shakes head...LOL
Can someone explain to me the language Spike speaks every now and then, in the comics that is, but compared to the series' (both actually). Because...what nmcil posted sounds like something Spike would say. Other times--I swear I am scratching my head going 'huh?'
Asylum depicted Spike so well...sometimes it went off, but overall, it was good. Then I read Spike After the Fall...and was, well...appalled? THEN I read even more comics featuring Spike...and was STILL basking in the joys of re-runs and fan fiction.
My question is, and correct me if I'm wrong--but, did Spike call Connor: boy? In the series. I don't remember that. Actually, I think I need a looksee of Angel Season 5 again because I don't remember Spike meeting Connor...I remember he finds out about Connor...meeting him? I hate to say I am losing my memory of Season 5 Angel lol...Too tired to check...
Did quickly check this one site...and he usually adds something in front--like droopy boy or Charlie boy...I don't remember him calling Connor boy? It's late lol...I totally spaced on the rest of what I was going to say...Night!
Can someone explain to me the language Spike speaks every now and then, in the comics that is, but compared to the series' (both actually). Because...what nmcil posted sounds like something Spike would say. Other times--I swear I am scratching my head going 'huh?'
Asylum depicted Spike so well...sometimes it went off, but overall, it was good. Then I read Spike After the Fall...and was, well...appalled? THEN I read even more comics featuring Spike...and was STILL basking in the joys of re-runs and fan fiction.
My question is, and correct me if I'm wrong--but, did Spike call Connor: boy? In the series. I don't remember that. Actually, I think I need a looksee of Angel Season 5 again because I don't remember Spike meeting Connor...I remember he finds out about Connor...meeting him? I hate to say I am losing my memory of Season 5 Angel lol...Too tired to check...
Did quickly check this one site...and he usually adds something in front--like droopy boy or Charlie boy...I don't remember him calling Connor boy? It's late lol...I totally spaced on the rest of what I was going to say...Night!
Jan 15 2010 02:55 pm #147coalitiongirl
And Xander comes off as really maturing, that's nice to see. Buffy? meh. And the "Angel" comics are really well drawn , while "Buffy" is pretty bad IMO. They look like they're 12...especially Buffy. They should definitely get a new artist. IMVHO.
Ditto, Ami. Although with Buffy looking like that, I'm not surprised that she's pretty much acting like a twelve-year-old. ;D And what's with seven seasons of Buffy kinda maturing reverting her back into this, and seven seasons of Xander's immaturity (okay, he kind of grew up in S7) suddenly becoming the wise, all-knowing one? As much as I like this Xander, I can't help but wonder if he's totally out of character in the comics... (He wouldn't be the first one. )
Oh, and on the Angel comics:
SPOILER
Did Connor actually die? Is this the beginning of the course of events that leads to Angel becoming Twilight? I'm a little confused about context...If it was in After the Fall, doesn't the current comic come after that?
/SPOILER
/SPOILER
Ditto, Ami.
Although with Buffy looking like that, I'm not surprised that she's pretty much acting like a twelve-year-old. ;D And what's with seven seasons of Buffy kinda maturing reverting her back into this, and seven seasons of Xander's immaturity (okay, he kind of grew up in S7) suddenly becoming the wise, all-knowing one? As much as I like this Xander, I can't help but wonder if he's totally out of character in the comics... (He wouldn't be the first one. )Oh, and on the Angel comics:
SPOILER
Did Connor actually die? Is this the beginning of the course of events that leads to Angel becoming Twilight? I'm a little confused about context...If it was in After the Fall, doesn't the current comic come after that?
/SPOILER
/SPOILER
Jan 15 2010 04:47 pm #148Old fan
Guest
Coalitiongirl;
SPOILERS!!!!
The pulled a cheap reset after that scene. That was the key all along. Angel willingly lets himself be struck down and that breakes the spell, everything reverts back to pre-hell. The only difference is that everybody that was caught in hell, remembers it.
So yeah, one of the first issues, Illyria tells this to Spike, that if he kills Angel they would all be free. And typical as Brian writes Spike, he doesn't do jackshit. Brian's Spike is always a frikken coward, weak underling.
SPOILERS!!!!
The pulled a cheap reset after that scene. That was the key all along. Angel willingly lets himself be struck down and that breakes the spell, everything reverts back to pre-hell. The only difference is that everybody that was caught in hell, remembers it.
So yeah, one of the first issues, Illyria tells this to Spike, that if he kills Angel they would all be free. And typical as Brian writes Spike, he doesn't do jackshit. Brian's Spike is always a frikken coward, weak underling.
Not that I am in anyway even remotely knowledgeable about Brian Lynch and his works - but in defense of Spike not being the one to take up the "kill Angel and set things right," - you have to consider that Wesley is very much the prime connection to Angel/Angelus and W&H and The Senior Partners. Wesley's arc had to be resolved and his character had to be the prime plot charcter - so it could not have been Sjpike as the "save the day" character.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I don't know about this "Wesley is very much the prime connection to Angel/Angelus and W&H and The Senior Partners" I really didn't get much into that arc at all...
So having said that, Brian Lynch does Spike more justice when he is on his own, and yet, he still has Spike saying what would Angel do...This is what primarily pisses people off, right? The very fact they keep having Spike not making his own decisions even with his soul. He always has someone else...like Buffy or Angel...his voice.
In Asylum and definitely in After the Fall Spike it was awesome until--What would Angel do...He'd fight...He wouldn't run. Spike runs, but in defense to that he is wounded...But then they have these ANNOYING bits that have Spike say Angel would do differently. It is very annoying.
In the series he had a good part...yes he still had this 'second fiddle' vibe to it, but he was still right up there. They have changed Spike. Period. In all fairness...the only characters I see growth are: Dawn, Xander, Andrew, and Gunn.
Question: I can't find where they wrote about this particular red head Slayer...I am curious about her...she's the only one besides Satsu I see drawn amazingly well too. What the heck is her name? I know lazy about going back and reading them lol. Someone, and I don't remember who, said they were pushing to put her more in the front too.
So having said that, Brian Lynch does Spike more justice when he is on his own, and yet, he still has Spike saying what would Angel do...This is what primarily pisses people off, right? The very fact they keep having Spike not making his own decisions even with his soul. He always has someone else...like Buffy or Angel...his voice.
In Asylum and definitely in After the Fall Spike it was awesome until--What would Angel do...He'd fight...He wouldn't run. Spike runs, but in defense to that he is wounded...But then they have these ANNOYING bits that have Spike say Angel would do differently. It is very annoying.
In the series he had a good part...yes he still had this 'second fiddle' vibe to it, but he was still right up there. They have changed Spike. Period. In all fairness...the only characters I see growth are: Dawn, Xander, Andrew, and Gunn.
Question: I can't find where they wrote about this particular red head Slayer...I am curious about her...she's the only one besides Satsu I see drawn amazingly well too. What the heck is her name? I know lazy about going back and reading them lol. Someone, and I don't remember who, said they were pushing to put her more in the front too.
whatever is going to happen to Angel/Angelus in his Twilight persona, it is very interesting that he knows who Andrew is - he can't remember
the three featured new Slayers are named Satsu, Rowena (red hair) and Leah (caps) Apparently Joss Whedon had plans for these three from the start - we know now of Satsu's romantic role, Rowena and Leah. frankly can't remember if they played an especial important part thus far.
the three featured new Slayers are named Satsu, Rowena (red hair) and Leah (caps) Apparently Joss Whedon had plans for these three from the start - we know now of Satsu's romantic role, Rowena and Leah. frankly can't remember if they played an especial important part thus far.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 17 2010 12:47 am #152SpaceLord
Guest
After reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that the comics sucks, I've read it but not really cared what happens it's just ok another issue done but not really caring that I have to wait a whole month for the next one. As for twilight I haven't even cared enough about the bad guy to care who he really is.
When I think about that I come to the conclusion that the comics sucks because I frankly don't give a shit what happens.
I must agree with the people who wrote about the drawing of the characters being strange, not bad but strange, in that I can't really tell them apart. Is that Dawn or Faith or some other girl?
When I think about that I come to the conclusion that the comics sucks because I frankly don't give a shit what happens.
I must agree with the people who wrote about the drawing of the characters being strange, not bad but strange, in that I can't really tell them apart. Is that Dawn or Faith or some other girl?
Jan 20 2010 01:10 am #153BandS
Guest
Does anyone have the image of Faith with the knife in her gut? I just noticed that...
Jan 20 2010 10:34 pm #154coalitiongirl
New Q&A with Scott Allie: Here
Oe question that was posed to him was about the accidentally released Bufyf/Angel cover:
15. collex: The cover for Issue 34, apart from the appearance of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, seems.... wrong somehow. (Spoiler just in case)
Spoiler:
Scott Allie: Beautiful covers, and great fan service! If we hadn't #$&%ed that @#%$ up!
-------
So it looks like the covers are just fanservice, not necessarily an indicator of Bangel to come. I'm a little relieved.
Nothing else too pleasant in the Q&A, though, and some things that made me want to knock some sense into Allie.
Oe question that was posed to him was about the accidentally released Bufyf/Angel cover:
15. collex: The cover for Issue 34, apart from the appearance of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, seems.... wrong somehow. (Spoiler just in case)
Spoiler:
| What I mean is, they are both very romantic and sweet, but I couldn't think of a less romantic situation than what's going on right now. So, does the style and feel of the covers have anything to do with the content inside? Maybe in a darkly ironic way? Or are they just beautiful covers? |
Scott Allie: Beautiful covers, and great fan service! If we hadn't #$&%ed that @#%$ up!
-------
So it looks like the covers are just fanservice, not necessarily an indicator of Bangel to come. I'm a little relieved.
Nothing else too pleasant in the Q&A, though, and some things that made me want to knock some sense into Allie.
Well, just read #31 and I'm not pleased...If Buffy tries with the Xander loveage...then the Twilight/Angel loveage train...I will just say, "Hey Joss and company why don't you just throw in a sister incest loving, and call it a day!"
Seems like to me Xander was on the money...in fact, if I were him, I'd be insulted.
If that spoils anyone...oopsie!
I am so loving the Dander tho I like it as Xawn better lol...
Another spoilage alert: Don't read if you don't want to know!
Twilight can do magic but yet he is fighting against it? He specifically says he placed a spell so no one would know who he took...
Coalitiongirl...I so did not like the Q/A with Allie-ass...
Still got a sense that they would somehow find a way to keep that damn Halo on Angel's head...
Seems like to me Xander was on the money...in fact, if I were him, I'd be insulted.
If that spoils anyone...oopsie!
I am so loving the Dander tho I like it as Xawn better lol...
Another spoilage alert: Don't read if you don't want to know!
Twilight can do magic but yet he is fighting against it? He specifically says he placed a spell so no one would know who he took...
Coalitiongirl...I so did not like the Q/A with Allie-ass...
Still got a sense that they would somehow find a way to keep that damn Halo on Angel's head...
BandS...try this for the Buffy stabbing Faith in the gut, it's not great but you can see it OK.
http://www.ehiztari.com/yolanda/Buffy_Screencaps/3x21Graduation_day_part_I/3x21Graduation_Day_part_I_1092_1.jpg
And Scott Allie annoys the crap outta me. I mean c'mon, he says the he ultimately wishes Buffy and Xander to be together, but that Buffy probably will never deserve it or some ridiculous thing like that. The man does NOT GET Buffy AT ALL! I wish he'd just stay quiet, and stop being such an obvious shipper...of any ship but Spuffy of course, that he'll never ship. Oh you know Angel will keep his halo, no doubt.
http://www.ehiztari.com/yolanda/Buffy_Screencaps/3x21Graduation_day_part_I/3x21Graduation_Day_part_I_1092_1.jpg
And Scott Allie annoys the crap outta me. I mean c'mon, he says the he ultimately wishes Buffy and Xander to be together, but that Buffy probably will never deserve it or some ridiculous thing like that. The man does NOT GET Buffy AT ALL!
I wish he'd just stay quiet, and stop being such an obvious shipper...of any ship but Spuffy of course, that he'll never ship. Oh you know Angel will keep his halo, no doubt. I have really good caps of the Faith-Buffy stabbing - if you give me some time, I will post something later tonight -
I like Xawn much better than Dander also - judging from a Joss Whedon interview, this Xander was an discussion he wanted between them - and Xander tells Buffy what many readers and online comments have stated - even if it were true about her feelings, that is something that she should have kept to herself.
It is very interesting in the image where Twangel is holding the stake pointed toward Buffy - the treatment for her hands is not one of trying to struggle against and assailant and her eyes have a very, at least for me, drugged appearance.
I like Xawn much better than Dander also - judging from a Joss Whedon interview, this Xander was an discussion he wanted between them - and Xander tells Buffy what many readers and online comments have stated - even if it were true about her feelings, that is something that she should have kept to herself.
It is very interesting in the image where Twangel is holding the stake pointed toward Buffy - the treatment for her hands is not one of trying to struggle against and assailant and her eyes have a very, at least for me, drugged appearance.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
what the heck is fan service?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
nmcil, according to urban dictionary "fan service" is < scenes designed to excite or titillate the viewer, basically if it has little plot-redeeming value but makes the viewer sit up and take notice it is fan service in one form or another.>
I wonder if Spuffy will get "fan service" Probably not.
I wonder if Spuffy will get "fan service" Probably not.
That sounds like what the season 6 trailers were. Fan Service. If you remember them (I've seen them on you-tube), they had different characters doing a little blurb about Buffy.
You mean like getting me to pay $15.00 plus shipping for my Spike-Angel variant cover - thanks for the info -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 21 2010 04:19 am #162BandS
Guest
Isn't that a better way of stating it's publicity...or marketing...OR even better waving a red flag saying, "OOH buy me, watch me, take me," Or a coming attraction, or trailer...
Well, that's what I understood lol...Personally they are throwing everything into those comics...I just pray they are good to Xawn...
I bet some of those writers are reading fan fiction....lmao...
Well, that's what I understood lol...Personally they are throwing everything into those comics...I just pray they are good to Xawn...
I bet some of those writers are reading fan fiction....lmao...
Jan 23 2010 12:34 am #163SpaceLord
Guest
"I bet some of those writers are reading fan fiction....lmao..."
I bet some of those writers can't read or write with the shite they are putting out there
I bet some of those writers can't read or write with the shite they are putting out there
Jan 23 2010 10:00 pm #164ladycat713
Guest
If they are they're reading crack fic and taking it seriously.
Jan 24 2010 12:05 am #165bluebird2073318
Guest
As a spuffy fan myself, i can't imagine why they would ever put Buffy and Angel together...
But maby this link may help:
http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?s=afd2164e62d67ed40ca2f268904e4496&t=46732
They talk about whats so special about bangel. I totally LOLed at some of their posts!
But maby this link may help:
http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?s=afd2164e62d67ed40ca2f268904e4496&t=46732
They talk about whats so special about bangel. I totally LOLed at some of their posts!
I respect the merit of Bangel, and even like it in season 1-3. I do believe it was real and deep, but I also believe that it's over, they moved on and became different. If Joss & Co go the way of getting them back together, it won't be the same as it was in the early season- Buffy and Angel are two different people now (Coalition Girl wrote an awesome one shot pardoy of this that pretty much sums it all out). Not to mention, compared to Biley, Bangel is a plesant alternative. lol
That said, some of the arguments on that forum were really well said...but there's always going to be the 'OMG Buffy/Angel 4eva!' crowd that are just annoying with their arguments and unwilling to even listen to counter arguments. I mean really, an argument of 'they love each other so much and that means they should be together' isn't very sound. lol.
All that said: Go Spuffy Go!
That said, some of the arguments on that forum were really well said...but there's always going to be the 'OMG Buffy/Angel 4eva!' crowd that are just annoying with their arguments and unwilling to even listen to counter arguments. I mean really, an argument of 'they love each other so much and that means they should be together' isn't very sound. lol.
All that said: Go Spuffy Go!
~ Niori ~
Yeah I can respect the Bangel myself...I don't like it tho cause I thought from the very beginning she was WAY too young and immature and he had all the power in that ship.I mean he was like 11 yrs older than her in human yrs. and a 200 yr old vamp to boot. And S3 was just one long angst fest, I was practically slitting my wrists by the end of it. Just wanted it to be over already. And that Bangel crowd with their Buffy and Angel 4EVA OMG!!! is annoying and so illogical it makes my head spin. They have BOTH moved on IMO, and to go back to that is ridiculous. But then anything is preferable to Biley or Bander. 
When I was 16/17 I LOVED my bf with a passion, and thought we'd be 2gether 4EVA too. But guess what? We grew up, grew apart and moved ON..like most people (I know some people are still with their HS bf/gf but not many) And when I think of being with him now instead of with my current bf I literally shudder at the thought.
I've been reading the posts on LJ about Spike coming into S8 and some think he won't make it out alive, so I'm worried about Spike now, cause ya never know with Joss. I hope that he has a better story planned than that, cause to kill off Spike to make way for Bangel or Bander would really SUCK.
Ditto..
And that Bangel crowd with their Buffy and Angel 4EVA OMG!!! is annoying and so illogical it makes my head spin. They have BOTH moved on IMO, and to go back to that is ridiculous. But then anything is preferable to Biley or Bander. When I was 16/17 I LOVED my bf with a passion, and thought we'd be 2gether 4EVA too. But guess what? We grew up, grew apart and moved ON..like most people (I know some people are still with their HS bf/gf but not many) And when I think of being with him now instead of with my current bf I literally shudder at the thought. I've been reading the posts on LJ about Spike coming into S8 and some think he won't make it out alive, so I'm worried about Spike now, cause ya never know with Joss.
I hope that he has a better story planned than that, cause to kill off Spike to make way for Bangel or Bander would really SUCK.Ditto..
I think we should be safe from Bander, since Xander shot Buffy (said something about if she really meant it too I believe) down and said he's in love/happy with Dawn (which is squicky in my opinion, but as long as it's not Bander, I don't care).
Man, they already killed Spike off once- I think there'd be a rapid mob descending on Darkhorse if they kill him off in season 8. People freaked when he died the first time even though everyone knew he was going to Angel, let alone if they kill him for good. Joss and Co would be in fear for their lives. lol
Man, they already killed Spike off once- I think there'd be a rapid mob descending on Darkhorse if they kill him off in season 8. People freaked when he died the first time even though everyone knew he was going to Angel, let alone if they kill him for good. Joss and Co would be in fear for their lives. lol
~ Niori ~
Uh...I uh...not starting a bicker session...but I gagged the minute Bangel was together...Never liked them. Reading their reasons has me thinking about what most see as the basis of True Love. Because every single time I saw them together there faces were serious or ugly looking...And Sarah is gorgeous...I am not starting anything, but I'm not a big David fan. Just not my type.
I respect others opinions...but reading that could never sway my opinion. I know all about finding your first love and staying with him...whether it's in high school or not. I actually back in high school set up a couple who is very much still together except their age difference is reasonable--3 years. I dated someone in his 20's while I was 16 going on 17, but considering a lot of factors in my life it was a tad different than what we saw on Buffy. AND he was only 4 years older. The age difference bothered me a lot. If what they saw was deep because of the angst and seeing like it was powerful...then I fear what people really see as powerful.
I just saw Leap Year. Great movie and amazing scenery of Ireland. Love that country btw...so wish to go back again!
They were very similar to Spuffy except without the 'darkness' of supernatural. It was denial, snark, attitude, powerful, deep, and just about what I would want to see in a relationship. They didn't know each other for long, and yet, they fell hard for each other. Strange how I saw her current beau very similar to Angel--all business and stick up the ass big time doc who made decisions based on his career and for them. Anna reminded me very much of Buffy all business who started to lighten up in the presence of another who gradually changed her view in what she saw what was real and true rather than what was controlled and planned.
Declan (and let me drool and swoon for a moment...damn loved the accents on foreign men!) was all snark, and straight to the point, yet, very closed up when it came to his past...until he let someone (Anna) in.
And before I go and give away an amazing movie that I'm so gonna own...go see it. The parallels are very close even without the supernatural. Another movie I find myself also comparing it to Definitely, Maybe. Though not to the same degree as Leap Year but also very similar. I get what they say about Bangel I do, but I couldn't see it. I was literally sick that even then I was like Xander is so much better...then Spike came along and I was like no...omigod....there is a couple I would like to see...NO I wasn't big on Spike and Dru either. Alone they were awesome actors...together I just didn't get it. When Angelus and Dru were together I saw that. Just because I ship Spuffy it doesn't mean I didn't see other potential or others that were together. I actually didn't like Wara all the time. I liked them for some time, but felt that Willow was better with Xander. I would have really liked to see Tanya actually....That would have been interesting.
But enough of that...I LMAO at some of the things said...and grumbled at some of the others because I can't see it. No I'm not blinded by blinders or rose colored glasses. I was literally sick from Bangel when they were...then before Chosen happened I was thanking my lucky stars I still had a tube tv...cuz I threw my sneaker at the tv. I was disgusted. I had to stay my hand when I upgraded my tv while watching the dvds...thank god for fast forward and skip buttons.
Ok hearing they might kill off Spike...could very well be a rumor? Nervously hopes!!!! I don't think David Lynch would let that happen. Even though he hasn't done good by him at times either...he has a better respect for the character than most do. I don't think Joss who does like Spike will do anything to kill him off.
What keeps coming back to me and it's constantly said in the Angel comics is the fact they don't know which side Angel plays on...I am thinking all these factors of angels and the Powers playing with Angel are trying to sway him to making the right choice...but we shall see. I really think he's caused too much destruction to be called 'good'. Even Buffy now doesn't have that title. The only one I saw as the epitome of good was and is Oz.
I am blissfully happy in Spuffy fan fic...but should anyone write a Speck (Spike and Beck from the Asylum comics) fan fic involving Buffy...ooo I would read that. Not in the threesome variety...but I found someone to love me for me and not what I did or what I am kinda thing...Yes I love those fics that really put Buffy in her place and her hypocrisy...
Hope I didn't bring on a hiss hiss fight, lol...I am NOT an Angel fan...In some fics I can stomach him a bit as Angelus, but as Angel-ass...no. So Bangel was definitely something I could never, and will never understand.
Is it bad that I cheered when he died??? I'm so bad, lol...I actually stopped watching Buffy when he returned. I wasn't an avid fan then...I lost all respect for the show. So when I watched it on reruns at one point...I wasn't surprised by what they did...and was actually bored with Season 3. I loved it when Spike was around though.
Sorry...just my opinions! Amazing that some of you can...Wish I could but I just couldn't...ugh....shudders.
And the Bander thing...I was nervous Xander would hurt Dawn and walk off into the sunset with Buffy...shudders at the though...I actually can see Xawn. They showed a bit of it in Season 7...so I think it was on the verge of happening sooner than later. And for Xander to say that to Buffy...I gained so much more respect for him.
Wonders about the future arc coming up and what it will mean...but if this whole Angel thing somehow springs up Bangel again...then no thank you...I will take off once again.
I read another forum there about which couple would you have liked to have seen that you didn't...Actually...one wasn't mentioned or maybe I overlooked it...but I always wondered...what about BOz? They have such an incredible chemistry off screen...wonders about on screen...would have been interesting...I think lol
I respect others opinions...but reading that could never sway my opinion. I know all about finding your first love and staying with him...whether it's in high school or not. I actually back in high school set up a couple who is very much still together except their age difference is reasonable--3 years. I dated someone in his 20's while I was 16 going on 17, but considering a lot of factors in my life it was a tad different than what we saw on Buffy. AND he was only 4 years older. The age difference bothered me a lot. If what they saw was deep because of the angst and seeing like it was powerful...then I fear what people really see as powerful.
I just saw Leap Year. Great movie and amazing scenery of Ireland. Love that country btw...so wish to go back again!
They were very similar to Spuffy except without the 'darkness' of supernatural. It was denial, snark, attitude, powerful, deep, and just about what I would want to see in a relationship. They didn't know each other for long, and yet, they fell hard for each other. Strange how I saw her current beau very similar to Angel--all business and stick up the ass big time doc who made decisions based on his career and for them. Anna reminded me very much of Buffy all business who started to lighten up in the presence of another who gradually changed her view in what she saw what was real and true rather than what was controlled and planned.
Declan (and let me drool and swoon for a moment...damn loved the accents on foreign men!) was all snark, and straight to the point, yet, very closed up when it came to his past...until he let someone (Anna) in.
And before I go and give away an amazing movie that I'm so gonna own...go see it. The parallels are very close even without the supernatural. Another movie I find myself also comparing it to Definitely, Maybe. Though not to the same degree as Leap Year but also very similar. I get what they say about Bangel I do, but I couldn't see it. I was literally sick that even then I was like Xander is so much better...then Spike came along and I was like no...omigod....there is a couple I would like to see...NO I wasn't big on Spike and Dru either. Alone they were awesome actors...together I just didn't get it. When Angelus and Dru were together I saw that. Just because I ship Spuffy it doesn't mean I didn't see other potential or others that were together. I actually didn't like Wara all the time. I liked them for some time, but felt that Willow was better with Xander. I would have really liked to see Tanya actually....That would have been interesting.
But enough of that...I LMAO at some of the things said...and grumbled at some of the others because I can't see it. No I'm not blinded by blinders or rose colored glasses. I was literally sick from Bangel when they were...then before Chosen happened I was thanking my lucky stars I still had a tube tv...cuz I threw my sneaker at the tv. I was disgusted. I had to stay my hand when I upgraded my tv while watching the dvds...thank god for fast forward and skip buttons.
Ok hearing they might kill off Spike...could very well be a rumor? Nervously hopes!!!! I don't think David Lynch would let that happen. Even though he hasn't done good by him at times either...he has a better respect for the character than most do. I don't think Joss who does like Spike will do anything to kill him off.
What keeps coming back to me and it's constantly said in the Angel comics is the fact they don't know which side Angel plays on...I am thinking all these factors of angels and the Powers playing with Angel are trying to sway him to making the right choice...but we shall see. I really think he's caused too much destruction to be called 'good'. Even Buffy now doesn't have that title. The only one I saw as the epitome of good was and is Oz.
I am blissfully happy in Spuffy fan fic...but should anyone write a Speck (Spike and Beck from the Asylum comics) fan fic involving Buffy...ooo I would read that. Not in the threesome variety...but I found someone to love me for me and not what I did or what I am kinda thing...Yes I love those fics that really put Buffy in her place and her hypocrisy...
Hope I didn't bring on a hiss hiss fight, lol...I am NOT an Angel fan...In some fics I can stomach him a bit as Angelus, but as Angel-ass...no. So Bangel was definitely something I could never, and will never understand.
Is it bad that I cheered when he died??? I'm so bad, lol...I actually stopped watching Buffy when he returned. I wasn't an avid fan then...I lost all respect for the show. So when I watched it on reruns at one point...I wasn't surprised by what they did...and was actually bored with Season 3. I loved it when Spike was around though.
Sorry...just my opinions! Amazing that some of you can...Wish I could but I just couldn't...ugh....shudders.
And the Bander thing...I was nervous Xander would hurt Dawn and walk off into the sunset with Buffy...shudders at the though...I actually can see Xawn. They showed a bit of it in Season 7...so I think it was on the verge of happening sooner than later. And for Xander to say that to Buffy...I gained so much more respect for him.
Wonders about the future arc coming up and what it will mean...but if this whole Angel thing somehow springs up Bangel again...then no thank you...I will take off once again.
I read another forum there about which couple would you have liked to have seen that you didn't...Actually...one wasn't mentioned or maybe I overlooked it...but I always wondered...what about BOz? They have such an incredible chemistry off screen...wonders about on screen...would have been interesting...I think lol
Jan 24 2010 09:23 am #170ladycat713
Guest
Am I reading this right? Buffy threw herself at Xander after knowing about him and Dawn? As squick worthy as I find Xawn(because of his long obsession with Buffy) (and Bander for that matter) Buffy throwing herself at her sister's boyfriend is squickier then both of them put together . What are they doing , going down a checklist of things Buffy could do wrong to prove she's turned into a complete scumbag? Next thing you know she'll put some kind of lust drug in Dawn's drink and sleep with her!
Yep- after she saw Xander and Dawn kissing and knows they're (happily) together, Buffy went and told Xander that she had feelings for him. And I agree- for me, that was one of Buffy's biggest low points in the comics. She's trying to steal her little sister's boyfriend. After that convo, one of the other girls actually makes some sort of comment to Dawn about her being worried because Buffy and Xander are off together testing out her new powers. How wrong is that, that you have to worry about your sister and your boyfriend being alone together (especially since they've been best friends for years)?
I do like Xawn SO much better than Bander. And yes, the Xawn was started in season seven, and it is something that has progressed at a believeable pace, but it's still weird to me- I can't imagine getting together with any of my little sister's guy friends (there's the same age difference between us as Buffy/Dawn), not when I've known them since they were little and watching them grow up.
~ Niori ~
Maybe I'm strange lol...but isn't it different with Guys than Girls with sibling friends? My sister and I are 4 years apart and she's friends with guys I was friends with or even dated...I'd be squicked if she was with my ex's cuz uh eww?
Xawn is strange a bit even because both had others (Renee--I think that's right--and Kenny for Dawn) and Buffy was pushing for him with the other Slayer...now all of a sudden Xander and Dawn get really close and she wants him...
I agree ladycat: next thing there will be heavy drinking and we see sisters kissing...yech!!!!! Shudders at the thought! Scrubs brain out from image...
Sometimes, even things not in your control, and no matter how much the make you shudder, they happen. I think this is what happened with Dawn and Xander. I think with Dawn knowing Buffy as well as she does--she has every right to be concerned. She is going to worry because she knows of the torch Xander carried for Buffy...and now that Buffy might have feelings it's going to piss her off...and this is going to cause a major strain in the relationship. If you think about it...It's like Dawn going after Spike or Angel...I see what you mean Niori but some things are just almost impossible to stop when feelings happen. Lol...well I think so...One of my sisters boyfriends I was like dang...hello...and she screws it up. But I wouldn't go after him either...so Ya I see your point but in some cases it does happen... Giggles...
Xawn is strange a bit even because both had others (Renee--I think that's right--and Kenny for Dawn) and Buffy was pushing for him with the other Slayer...now all of a sudden Xander and Dawn get really close and she wants him...
I agree ladycat: next thing there will be heavy drinking and we see sisters kissing...yech!!!!! Shudders at the thought! Scrubs brain out from image...
Sometimes, even things not in your control, and no matter how much the make you shudder, they happen. I think this is what happened with Dawn and Xander. I think with Dawn knowing Buffy as well as she does--she has every right to be concerned. She is going to worry because she knows of the torch Xander carried for Buffy...and now that Buffy might have feelings it's going to piss her off...and this is going to cause a major strain in the relationship. If you think about it...It's like Dawn going after Spike or Angel...I see what you mean Niori but some things are just almost impossible to stop when feelings happen. Lol...well I think so...One of my sisters boyfriends I was like dang...hello...and she screws it up. But I wouldn't go after him either...so Ya I see your point but in some cases it does happen... Giggles...
Actually, Buffy had feelings for Xander before she saw him kissing Dawn. It was something building up so slowly, and we've seen her dreaming about having sex with Xander in #2. She was just too afraid of confessing those feelings because she has the idea that she's a curse to the men she gets involved with. Remember her rant to Satsu about her boyfriends and how they end up dead, leaving or burnt up? She didn't want this to happen to Xander. When Buffy lost her powers, she admitted that she's able to feel more, she thought that now as a normal woman she could have a relationship with Xander, she had a romantic moment with him before deciding to talk to Willow first. Willow's "Xander is a good man" comment which was obviously about Xander/Dawn was misunderstood by Buffy who thought that Willow was giving her her blessing.
Buffy was going to tell Xander about how she felt. And then she saw Xander/Dawn. Also, Buffy didn't want to tell Xander that she loved him after she saw the kiss, it was the dying soldier's words that made her decide it was better to let it out and not regretting never telling Xander.
With Buffy's "Xander Sex Dream" you have to, IMO, consider how the theme of powerful physical difference was alluded to and the very use of a phrase that clearly is associated with another lover, Spike - with whom physical difference was of no importance. This theme of the physical strength in sexual acts between Slayer Buffy and Riley has been brought up before. Buffy very much liked the powerful sexual encounters she had with Spike -
You can see the images for the Buffy-Xander talk at my flickr page - check Buffy 31 images - check the "all sizes" to see large original images for best Reading.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil
I am one of the readers that like Xawn - their relationship was developed slowly throughout the season and while the age difference and "little sister" might be discomforting for some, considering their shared history and that Dawn is a grown up young lady now added to a more mature Xander and how really well they work together, I find that I very much like them as a romantic couple.
I'm am hoping that Joss Whedon will finally move Buffy into a real step into emotional healing and maturity - the one theme that consistently comes up in Season Eight, is her need to connect and find comfort with another person. I loved his talk with Buffy, IMO, is was right on the mark.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 24 2010 06:54 pm #175coalitiongirl
And Nmcil's excerpts finally made me curious enough to download the whole chapter: here and there's a lot more to the conversation which makes me totally disgusted with Buffy. Yeah, they added in that soldier scene to try to excuse Buffy's actions, but Xander himself calls her on it- pointing out that regardless of her feelings for him, she had no right to bring them up after Xawn began. In fact, Xander pretty much says everything we've been saying. I think that the whole concept of Bander is so unrealistic, though, and not true to the show at all. We spend seven seasons (or okay, just the beginning of season five) establishing that slayers and humans are just not compatible, and that Buffy doesn't have feelings for Xander, and now, suddenly she does? Like Xander says in the comics, he's her last resort, AFTER going gay. I think that the only reason that Buffy even considered being with Xander was because there's actually no one else available, and as a girl, I know how these offhand thoughts about a guy can rupture into a full-fledged crush just because .
From a behind-the-scenes perspective, I'm pretty sure that the comic editors (probably even JW) are all very pro-Xander, and my theory is that they kind of wanted him to get back some of his own here. He spent years and years crushing on Buffy, and now they wanted him to reject her. Maybe it was more personal than plotworthy for them? Not to attack the writers or anything... (okay, a little)
Oh, and btw Niori- thanks for the plug! lol.
. From a behind-the-scenes perspective, I'm pretty sure that the comic editors (probably even JW) are all very pro-Xander, and my theory is that they kind of wanted him to get back some of his own here. He spent years and years crushing on Buffy, and now they wanted him to reject her. Maybe it was more personal than plotworthy for them? Not to attack the writers or anything... (okay, a little
)Oh, and btw Niori- thanks for the plug! lol.
We spend seven seasons (or okay, just the beginning of season five) establishing that slayers and humans are just not compatible
I disagree with this. I think most of the fans seem to focus more on Buffy's demon side and forget completely about her human side. If we're talking technical here, Buffy can't make it work with humans and vampires. The perfect match for Buffy would be Satsu, a slayer like her, who's as strong and still can grow old with Buffy, do humans activities with her. But I don't care about technical, and who's best for Buffy, I care about Buffy herself, who she loves, what she wants. Buffy can make it work with a human or a vampire or a slayer if she really loves them and they love her back.
Buffy's relationship with Riley shouldn't be the example of all human/slayer relationships. Their relationship didn't work because of them as persons, not because Riley was a human. Riley couldn't take the fact that he's a follower, someone's second in command, he's an alpha like Buffy. Xander, on the other hand, isn't. And he doesn't care if Buffy is stronger than him, doesn't care about following her, so it could work. The problem is Xander isn't in love with her anymore, he's over her, so we'll never know how it'd go.
and that Buffy doesn't have feelings for Xander, and now, suddenly she does?
Buffy also didn't love Spike for years. And then she did by S7. I think the reason why Buffy loved Xander is exactly the same as why she loved Spike. They changed. She didn't love the insecure, foolish boy Xander used to be, she'd always been attracted to older, mature men. Now, that Xander had grew up and matured a lot, him being the only one of her close friends by her side, it made her see him in a new light. Sadly, she was so scared to open up to him, and tried her best to push him away; telling him to date Renee for example. When she finally found the courage to tell him, she was too late.
(For the record, I'm a Spuffy fan who prefers Xander and Buffy as friends and nothing more. But, I completely disagree with the notion that Buffy can only have a relationship with a vampire.)
Jan 24 2010 09:57 pm #177ladycat713
Guest
Good point about Xander being her last resort since any Slayers would turn her down flat after Satsu.
Either because they saw the way she treated Satsu the time she saw her after she was done having sex with her *ignored her completely) and don't want to be used like that.
And any Slayer who wants to be promoited wouldn't want it to appear that they earned thier promotion through sexual favors the way it appears that Satsu did (which doesn't mean she set out to get promoted through sex but it can mean that the promotion was Buffy's way of getting rid of an awkward situation and Satsu didn't earn it) .
Plus it could be that Buffy was warned off approaching any Slayers for sex because it appears that Satsu was promoted through sex and that any Slayers she approached might think that Buffy might make them have sex with her or be demoted IE sexual harrassment (which this Buffy seems perfectly capable of ).
Buffy/Riley didn't work because of who they were not what they were. Riley couldn't deal with dating a woman more powerful over him. That's why i suspect (but know if it was ever stated) that Riley's wife was of a lower rank than him.
She should've kept her feelings to herself about Xander. She knew he was with her sister and injecting herself into that was just selfish,. Now anytime Xander's near Buffy (especially if Dawn knows about Buffy's declaration) Dawn might think that he will cheat on her (since those who've cheated often think that others are cheating on them ) . And that could screw up the relationship.
The Buffy arc seems to be turning her from hero to below zero in character.
Buffy's turned into a train wreck. You want to look away but you just can't , it's just so horrible. Sooner or later though the horror fades the disgust settles and you go home to find something that will settle your stomach.
IOW, while all this bad behavior may initally boost sales, it won't last and by the time they're done, they will have completely destroyed thier titular hero.
Either because they saw the way she treated Satsu the time she saw her after she was done having sex with her *ignored her completely) and don't want to be used like that.
And any Slayer who wants to be promoited wouldn't want it to appear that they earned thier promotion through sexual favors the way it appears that Satsu did (which doesn't mean she set out to get promoted through sex but it can mean that the promotion was Buffy's way of getting rid of an awkward situation and Satsu didn't earn it) .
Plus it could be that Buffy was warned off approaching any Slayers for sex because it appears that Satsu was promoted through sex and that any Slayers she approached might think that Buffy might make them have sex with her or be demoted IE sexual harrassment (which this Buffy seems perfectly capable of ).
Buffy/Riley didn't work because of who they were not what they were. Riley couldn't deal with dating a woman more powerful over him. That's why i suspect (but know if it was ever stated) that Riley's wife was of a lower rank than him.
She should've kept her feelings to herself about Xander. She knew he was with her sister and injecting herself into that was just selfish,. Now anytime Xander's near Buffy (especially if Dawn knows about Buffy's declaration) Dawn might think that he will cheat on her (since those who've cheated often think that others are cheating on them ) . And that could screw up the relationship.
The Buffy arc seems to be turning her from hero to below zero in character.
Buffy's turned into a train wreck. You want to look away but you just can't , it's just so horrible. Sooner or later though the horror fades the disgust settles and you go home to find something that will settle your stomach.
IOW, while all this bad behavior may initally boost sales, it won't last and by the time they're done, they will have completely destroyed thier titular hero.
Jan 24 2010 10:11 pm #178SpaceLord
Guest
I've recently got season 1 on DVD and been watching it and I must say that DB's acting is really awful. Whenever he shows up he just don't seem to be able to look like a 250 year old vampire haunted with all that he has done. I mean we get Angels backstory told to us in like episode 6-7 where he tells about the soul and all that so he must have known it before he had any scenes at all on the show and still I just can't believe how much he comes off as a lame teenager.
On a side note I was over at the Buffy-boards and checked out the thread about couples that should have been and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that think Spike and Faith would have made an interesting couple (don't hate me I know this is a spuffy site) but some of my favorite fanfic is spaith so I know it can be done very well. The best being Ransomed, Healed, Restored, Forgiven by Anaross, I find all her stories to be great because she can write pretty much any of the characters well and not butcher them.
On a side note I was over at the Buffy-boards and checked out the thread about couples that should have been and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that think Spike and Faith would have made an interesting couple (don't hate me I know this is a spuffy site
) but some of my favorite fanfic is spaith so I know it can be done very well. The best being Ransomed, Healed, Restored, Forgiven by Anaross, I find all her stories to be great because she can write pretty much any of the characters well and not butcher them. Jan 24 2010 10:19 pm #179BandS
Guest
I think what it comes down to, and correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the writers have stated they enjoy writing very flawed characters.
I get flawed character, I really do, but to take Buffy in this direction...is just sad. Actually, let me back that up, I lost a lot of star eyed love for Buffy long before. She has had moments that I loved her...like Season 7--I really really enjoyed her. It was like a whole different side to Buffy, but then she goes and does stupid things like kissing Angel then sleeping with Spike to giving other girls power that she for years complained about. Now they lose their power for what seemed like a minute (ya I read those comics way too fast lol) and then she is super powered up...and not the others? Ya ok...I have issues with the plot ( I know lol)--especially when they brought in Fray. Seeing that I really do fear what they have planned for Spike later in the comics...
They are seriously taking this 'flawed' character to some extremes. I don't know I can take in fantasy world of movies, tv, and books the flaws etc...but with some semblance of a good ending. This is fantasy world...when our real life is harsh, bitter, good, bad, hard, and true. Just my opinion...I like to escape to these stories, but to damage characters to an ultimate flaw? I back away...Take a look at what they did in One Tree Hill (if any watches). They took Dan to an extreme and now look at where he is...He excepted his mistake, but not after he went publicity-wise until it took to see what he was doing. He was letting a young woman (his wife) control much of what he did on camera...With his evil vindictive ways he put his wife in her place leaving her with absolutely nothing. Smart. I wonder what they will continue to do with him while he redeems himself...but in that world what he did will never have his boys forgive him...they could accept him or tolerate him, but forgive--no. They are taking a young innocent girl and warping her from day one by adding every kind of flaw and now as a young woman she is just as bad as Dan on One Tree Hill was...wonders if they will send Buffy down a redemption path?
I get flawed character, I really do, but to take Buffy in this direction...is just sad. Actually, let me back that up, I lost a lot of star eyed love for Buffy long before. She has had moments that I loved her...like Season 7--I really really enjoyed her. It was like a whole different side to Buffy, but then she goes and does stupid things like kissing Angel then sleeping with Spike to giving other girls power that she for years complained about. Now they lose their power for what seemed like a minute (ya I read those comics way too fast lol) and then she is super powered up...and not the others? Ya ok...I have issues with the plot ( I know lol)--especially when they brought in Fray. Seeing that I really do fear what they have planned for Spike later in the comics...
They are seriously taking this 'flawed' character to some extremes. I don't know I can take in fantasy world of movies, tv, and books the flaws etc...but with some semblance of a good ending. This is fantasy world...when our real life is harsh, bitter, good, bad, hard, and true. Just my opinion...I like to escape to these stories, but to damage characters to an ultimate flaw? I back away...Take a look at what they did in One Tree Hill (if any watches). They took Dan to an extreme and now look at where he is...He excepted his mistake, but not after he went publicity-wise until it took to see what he was doing. He was letting a young woman (his wife) control much of what he did on camera...With his evil vindictive ways he put his wife in her place leaving her with absolutely nothing. Smart. I wonder what they will continue to do with him while he redeems himself...but in that world what he did will never have his boys forgive him...they could accept him or tolerate him, but forgive--no. They are taking a young innocent girl and warping her from day one by adding every kind of flaw and now as a young woman she is just as bad as Dan on One Tree Hill was...wonders if they will send Buffy down a redemption path?
Jan 25 2010 02:09 am #180ladycat713
Guest
Flawed I can accept . After all, I like the Punisher, the Creeper and Rorschach (haven't seen the movie version yet but he's got serious issues with women because of his abusive mother yet he doesn't take them out on women) and they're deeply damaged people but at least they don't go around leading others to a path of corruption , using someone who loves them etc. Buffy isn't flawed any more, she's FUBAR.
I have to agree with the comments that Buffy telling Xander she had feelings for him when she KNEW he was with her sister was an awful thing to do, and made Buffy look selfish and really skanky IMO. It's like the writers are just sitting around thinking..."hmm, let's see what we can do to make Buffy a horrible person this week/month." It's like Buffy herself said to Xander during that convo about being the most horrible person in the universe. Yup, that's about right. And she was thinking of Xander in that way cause there's nothing else for her (except girls and we all know how that worked out). And that's what happens when 500 girls are in an isolated castle with no guys around. Who the hell are they supposed to sleep with and have a relationship with? They only have each other. All the Slayers should be running far, far away from Buffy...she just comes off as a big user. And to me Buffy is like a general sleeping with an underling in the Army...that's wrong. She also promoted Satsu after that to have her away from her. Also wrong. Let's see how they manage to undo the harm that's been done to her character, cause ladycat you're right. The titular hero is acting like anything but.
I agree , the writers and Joss are big Xander fans. Joss says that he is Xander so it seems that Xander is getting his own back here.
I agree , the writers and Joss are big Xander fans. Joss says that he is Xander so it seems that Xander is getting his own back here.
Does anyone think that Buffy Season Eight will ultimately end up being trial to develop her character toward a stronger emotional foundation? Satsu was Buffy reaching out to find comfort and connection - was she right to do so with Satsu? that has to be one of those "individual perspective & opinion" conclusion. I personally don't think that it was the right choice or a good choice because of the role she plays in the leadership and generalship of all the young Slayers. Satsu allow herself to become involved sexually with Buffy and she knew the circumstances. Was it right for Buffy to reach out and use the other young girl for temporary comfort? It was not in my personal perspective, for other readers, it was really no big deal.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Reaching out for temporary comfort is one thing (think Anya & Spike in Entrophy), but it's another thing entirely when the person you're reaching out to is in love with you. Then, after the comfort is over, you ingore them, send them away and then send someone else to go make sure that they understand there's going to be nothing else between you. Yeah, Satsu knew the circumstances, but Buffy was downright cold at times when it was over. It wasn't so much the sleeping with Satsu, but the way she treated her afterwards.
Don't even get me started on the position of power issues- Buffy is a general in the 'army'- generals don't sleep with their little privates. It's unethical, especially when Satsu got a permotion out of it (yeah she was a good Slayer, but Buffy gave her the squad leader in Japan as part of her 'opps, sorry I slept with you and gave you the impression that we could have a thing' thing). From a military perspective, that's just wrong.
Don't even get me started on the position of power issues- Buffy is a general in the 'army'- generals don't sleep with their little privates. It's unethical, especially when Satsu got a permotion out of it (yeah she was a good Slayer, but Buffy gave her the squad leader in Japan as part of her 'opps, sorry I slept with you and gave you the impression that we could have a thing' thing). From a military perspective, that's just wrong.
~ Niori ~
Nmcil I'd have to say that Buffy is going backwards rather than forward. I don't think she is striving toward a stronger emotional foundation at all. In fact I think coalitiongirl says it best in her new one-shot...
Spike, quite rightly, says Buffy is out of character. I truly believe she is. During Season 7 Buffy had no feelings but love of a friendship with Xander...yet all of a sudden she does. I really think she is grasping because she's trying desperately (and going about it in the wrong way) to find a connection when she isn't looking to what she does have. She DOES have connection, but she just wants to whine about the fact she isn't romantically involved, and that is her downfall. She still consistently pushes that out of her life because SHE does that. What does one do when they see that a relationship fall apart...we do our best to move on...sometimes it happens, sometimes wonderful and great things happen, and sometimes you just whine and mope at what you lost because you only set this one person as what you wanted--never mind anyone else out there who could be the sun, the moon, the stars, everything all wrapped up in one.
I for one would have been questioning the why's of that first relationship and look to changing what I ultimately set myself up as 'my ideal guy'. Which in this case Buffy does. This is why I have argued relentlessly that I believe Buffy ultimately chose her father or Angel in this case. She wants a man to walk away from her. She is actually doing it subconsciously...if that makes sense. She doomed herself from the get go because she blames herself for her parents downfall. Its actually typical, but then statistically you would see a heck of lot more messed up relationships then, wouldn't we...NO because some are smart. They don't blame themselves when clearly Buffy does. She takes this Slayer business to a whole other level than other Slayers have. Is it a good thing? To an extent making her a different type of Slayer that uses her heart more than her head, but it's also her downfall too.
Darn lost my train of thought...errr...sorry. Anyway...Regardless she takes the burden and the world on her shoulders a tad bit too far. Now that there are more Slayers she seems to keep them close and guarded. I think I'm starting to realize this relationship between Buffy (father type role) and Willow (mother type role) a bit more. She not only does the distance thing, but huge heart, with everyone she comes into contact. She did that. I read back, and not only Willow says that about her...I believe Andrew says something to a lesser degree and so does Xander.
I do think this season is about the Scoobies and their relationships, but those "Powers that Be writer" (giggles madly at Coalitiongirl's oneshot...ROFLMAO still!!!!!) are really stepping in the deep end...I will be absolutely disgusted if they have Dawn walk in on Bander...I will be very disgusted...might even protest that. Because that's the last straw for me...I'd rather at this point Satsu comes back and Buffy and her work through a relationship and help 'heal' her feelings towards romantic relationships...because Buffy is one screwed up chica...
I sincerely doubt Spike will be the one to help Buffy...this is why I am hoping it will be Satsu rather than anyone else...because anyone else...ugh...
As far as general to Slayer...the fact they set it up this way making Buffy more or less 'father' in this scenario to the birth of Slayers...hmmm that's a hard call...is it right or wrong because in this world it does happen. It may be frowned upon but generally it happens. Someone of a higher rank with someone who is a soldier with a lesser rank--I believe it can happen. Well, from what I see in movies, and have heard from others in the actual army...So I'd have to say I don't think they were stepping over the lines...I just think Buffy took it to far because she didn't feel the same...and that is still using--whether she thought it was fantastic or not. It was still wrong, and she is still the same ole Buffy...doing what Buffy damn well pleases...Sorry if you are a fanatically crazy Buffy lover...I love Spuffy, but our Buffy...not what she has become.
Spike, quite rightly, says Buffy is out of character. I truly believe she is. During Season 7 Buffy had no feelings but love of a friendship with Xander...yet all of a sudden she does. I really think she is grasping because she's trying desperately (and going about it in the wrong way) to find a connection when she isn't looking to what she does have. She DOES have connection, but she just wants to whine about the fact she isn't romantically involved, and that is her downfall. She still consistently pushes that out of her life because SHE does that. What does one do when they see that a relationship fall apart...we do our best to move on...sometimes it happens, sometimes wonderful and great things happen, and sometimes you just whine and mope at what you lost because you only set this one person as what you wanted--never mind anyone else out there who could be the sun, the moon, the stars, everything all wrapped up in one.
I for one would have been questioning the why's of that first relationship and look to changing what I ultimately set myself up as 'my ideal guy'. Which in this case Buffy does. This is why I have argued relentlessly that I believe Buffy ultimately chose her father or Angel in this case. She wants a man to walk away from her. She is actually doing it subconsciously...if that makes sense. She doomed herself from the get go because she blames herself for her parents downfall. Its actually typical, but then statistically you would see a heck of lot more messed up relationships then, wouldn't we...NO because some are smart. They don't blame themselves when clearly Buffy does. She takes this Slayer business to a whole other level than other Slayers have. Is it a good thing? To an extent making her a different type of Slayer that uses her heart more than her head, but it's also her downfall too.
Darn lost my train of thought...errr...sorry. Anyway...Regardless she takes the burden and the world on her shoulders a tad bit too far. Now that there are more Slayers she seems to keep them close and guarded. I think I'm starting to realize this relationship between Buffy (father type role) and Willow (mother type role) a bit more. She not only does the distance thing, but huge heart, with everyone she comes into contact. She did that. I read back, and not only Willow says that about her...I believe Andrew says something to a lesser degree and so does Xander.
I do think this season is about the Scoobies and their relationships, but those "Powers that Be writer" (giggles madly at Coalitiongirl's oneshot...ROFLMAO still!!!!!) are really stepping in the deep end...I will be absolutely disgusted if they have Dawn walk in on Bander...I will be very disgusted...might even protest that. Because that's the last straw for me...I'd rather at this point Satsu comes back and Buffy and her work through a relationship and help 'heal' her feelings towards romantic relationships...because Buffy is one screwed up chica...
I sincerely doubt Spike will be the one to help Buffy...this is why I am hoping it will be Satsu rather than anyone else...because anyone else...ugh...
As far as general to Slayer...the fact they set it up this way making Buffy more or less 'father' in this scenario to the birth of Slayers...hmmm that's a hard call...is it right or wrong because in this world it does happen. It may be frowned upon but generally it happens. Someone of a higher rank with someone who is a soldier with a lesser rank--I believe it can happen. Well, from what I see in movies, and have heard from others in the actual army...So I'd have to say I don't think they were stepping over the lines...I just think Buffy took it to far because she didn't feel the same...and that is still using--whether she thought it was fantastic or not. It was still wrong, and she is still the same ole Buffy...doing what Buffy damn well pleases...Sorry if you are a fanatically crazy Buffy lover...I love Spuffy, but our Buffy...not what she has become.
Jan 25 2010 06:39 am #185ladycat713
Guest
Satsu allow herself to become involved sexually with Buffy and she knew the circumstances.
You might be able to say that but remember Satsu's in love with Buffy and like Spike said Love isn't brains, it's blood screaming to work it's will. Not to mention I seriously doubt she ever pictured the Slayer held up as an example would treat her so shabbily after she was done with her. The burden of responsible behavior was on Buffy not Satsu. Buffy wasn't in love, she's the leader and held up as a role model to these girls. A job at which she's failing miserably at.
And isolating all those Slayers from the rest of humanity seems like a massively bad idea. It might make some of them more prone to see themselves as apart from humans and foster a might makes right policy (especially given things like bank robbery as part of the curriculam, Thery've got a magically boosted hacker on thier hands they can track down all the council funds.
You might be able to say that but remember Satsu's in love with Buffy and like Spike said Love isn't brains, it's blood screaming to work it's will. Not to mention I seriously doubt she ever pictured the Slayer held up as an example would treat her so shabbily after she was done with her. The burden of responsible behavior was on Buffy not Satsu. Buffy wasn't in love, she's the leader and held up as a role model to these girls. A job at which she's failing miserably at.
And isolating all those Slayers from the rest of humanity seems like a massively bad idea. It might make some of them more prone to see themselves as apart from humans and foster a might makes right policy (especially given things like bank robbery as part of the curriculam, Thery've got a magically boosted hacker on thier hands they can track down all the council funds.
Wasn`t it said repeatedly on the show that one of the things that made Buffy an amazing Slayer was having friends and family outside of slaying. They`re kind of taking that away from all these new girls. Sure they have the others Slayers, but no one on the outside world.
So yeah, isolating all the Slayers in remote Scotland never seemed like a good idea. How many of those girls had to leave family and all that behind, and we all know how Buffy would have reacted if they had tried to do that to her, so I don`t get how she`s so easily accepting of all the stuff that`s going on.
So yeah, isolating all the Slayers in remote Scotland never seemed like a good idea. How many of those girls had to leave family and all that behind, and we all know how Buffy would have reacted if they had tried to do that to her, so I don`t get how she`s so easily accepting of all the stuff that`s going on.
~ Niori ~
Exactly, Buffy is their leader and she is the one responsible for these girls. Can you imagine if she'd done this in S7 with Vi or Rona or Amanda? I know it's different cause they're not gay (or I guess they're not) and Satsu is , but still they were her little privates and she was the General as Giles said. Does anyone know how old Satsu is? I hope she's at least 18. I still say it's wrong to use someone under your command for sex.
Jan 25 2010 07:34 am #188BandS
Guest
Niori didn't Spike say that about Buffy or is that fandom? I remember him vividly saying it in the series though about her...too busy now to check...damn puter problems...
No idea how spam got on my computer when I have a good blocker...amazes me that nothing is completely protected.
OOOH and did Giles say something to that effect too? We could go all the way back to even Merrick and he would say it to a similar degree that Buffy did everything wrong...but I have issues with how she did things...so I will be shutting up now...lol...
I so need a new computer....and how can I pass this one on to my daughter...same stupid damn spammer popped up from last time but I caught it...stupid spammers...
When you all put it that way with leader versus army...Wouldn't this actually be very much similar to TA to student? Joss really likes to straddle those lines...
No idea how spam got on my computer when I have a good blocker...amazes me that nothing is completely protected.
OOOH and did Giles say something to that effect too? We could go all the way back to even Merrick and he would say it to a similar degree that Buffy did everything wrong...but I have issues with how she did things...so I will be shutting up now...lol...
I so need a new computer....and how can I pass this one on to my daughter...same stupid damn spammer popped up from last time but I caught it...stupid spammers...
When you all put it that way with leader versus army...Wouldn't this actually be very much similar to TA to student? Joss really likes to straddle those lines...
Spike does say something along the lines of family/friends being the only thing that's kept off Buffy's death wish in FFL.
Yeah, that's one of the (many) reasons I dislike Biley. At my university, if a TA is caught with a student in their class (and thus they're grading their work) there's serious trouble.
And it sucks about your computer- hopefully you get it all sorted out!
Yeah, that's one of the (many) reasons I dislike Biley. At my university, if a TA is caught with a student in their class (and thus they're grading their work) there's serious trouble.
And it sucks about your computer- hopefully you get it all sorted out!
~ Niori ~
Jan 25 2010 07:58 am #190BandS
Guest
Thanks Niori...swear I do a search for a new computer it becomes all great again...Getting two new ones a better version for my daughter and myself...just praying I don't break the bank with them...lol
See now I can see what you all are comparing to. The only reason I was questioning it so much was due to a heck of a lot of Lifetime movies that are based on real life people that have had some relationship with their superior. Yes I know it's frowned upon, and so isn't right, but I hate to be neutral but it happens. But going back to the Satsu promotion thing...THAT was wrong. Sleeps with her not once, but twice then basically gives her a pat on the back, "I know you are in love with me...but I don't feel the same. How about I kiss your boo boo better and offer you a promotion?"
Now that is f-ed up! Now going back and re-reading it...I retract what I've said...If it was returned affections then I would have understood the relationship...but it wasn't and to 'make up' for it she offers a promotion. That is wrong on so many levels! So no I don't think there is ANYONE who could change Buffy and her feelings because quite simply it's going to take a miracle for her to change this very thing about her. She does it to everyone she is with.
I won't be surprised one bit, if Angel turns out to be just like the rest in the long run. But even those writers will write it the way they want...so I have no doubt that they will place these two so high up.
Like I said flawed characters with Major Halo's around their heads...they can do no wrong...yet we see with our own eyeballs just how wrong they can be...And no I don't believe anyone is perfect and can't make mistakes...but their mistakes are whoppers.
See now I can see what you all are comparing to. The only reason I was questioning it so much was due to a heck of a lot of Lifetime movies that are based on real life people that have had some relationship with their superior. Yes I know it's frowned upon, and so isn't right, but I hate to be neutral but it happens. But going back to the Satsu promotion thing...THAT was wrong. Sleeps with her not once, but twice then basically gives her a pat on the back, "I know you are in love with me...but I don't feel the same. How about I kiss your boo boo better and offer you a promotion?"
Now that is f-ed up! Now going back and re-reading it...I retract what I've said...If it was returned affections then I would have understood the relationship...but it wasn't and to 'make up' for it she offers a promotion. That is wrong on so many levels! So no I don't think there is ANYONE who could change Buffy and her feelings because quite simply it's going to take a miracle for her to change this very thing about her. She does it to everyone she is with.
I won't be surprised one bit, if Angel turns out to be just like the rest in the long run. But even those writers will write it the way they want...so I have no doubt that they will place these two so high up.
Like I said flawed characters with Major Halo's around their heads...they can do no wrong...yet we see with our own eyeballs just how wrong they can be...And no I don't believe anyone is perfect and can't make mistakes...but their mistakes are whoppers.
I love the idea of Satsu being the one stepping up and helping Buffy connect. Satsu is a great character and Scott said that Joss has a lot of ideas for her.
I agree , the writers and Joss are big Xander fans. Joss says that he is Xander so it seems that Xander is getting his own back here.
If this was true, then why doesn't Xander get more storylines? Why is he mostly in the background? Why is he always in the supporting role? I think the writers love Buffy and Willow the most -as well as Spike when he was still in the story. Those characters are the ones that get the most/best storylines.
During Season 7 Buffy had no feelings but love of a friendship with Xander...yet all of a sudden she does.
All of a sudden? It's been there since the beginning, Buffy had a sexual dream about Xander, and like you said, he was the only one by her side at the moment, the only one she talks to and train with. That ought to make her see him in a new and different light. We've seen so many scenes between Buffy and Xander in S8, working together, talking together, being there for each other, connecting. When she lost her powers, she thought it was time to tell Xander about her feelings, but she was too late, Xander already chose Dawn.
I believe Buffy has grown up a lot this season, yet with all the pressure she makes mistakes, trying so hard to keep it all together. I've listed the points where Buffy had grown up in:
In Touched Buffy tells Spike that "being the slayer always made her different, but it's her fault she stays that way." She stated that "people always tried to connect with her but she just pushed them away." Buffy has clearly taken this on board and has tried to change her behaviour;
- When she feels disconnected in A Beautiful Sunset she actually TELLS somebody! This is kinda huge for Buffy. Rather than stew in her own misery she talks to Xander about it and opens up.
- Satsu tries to connect with her and Buffy wants it. Yes the Buffy/Satsu relationship can be problematic and there was some "two way advantaging going on" but Buffy wanted to find a connection. She did not push Satsu away.
Other things include;
- Delegating her leadership with her friends. In S7 Buffy took it upon herself to be the sole leader of the potentials but here she trusts others to work with her.
- Developing a solid rapport with her slayers. In S7 Buffy shut herself off and appeared unlikeable to the Potential Slayers. In S8 she’s struck the right balance between being friendly with them whilst still earning their respect.
- Rather than hide behind an ice queen persona (like she did in Get It Done) Buffy shows her feelings over Aiko's death and lets Willow comfort her.
I agree , the writers and Joss are big Xander fans. Joss says that he is Xander so it seems that Xander is getting his own back here.
If this was true, then why doesn't Xander get more storylines? Why is he mostly in the background? Why is he always in the supporting role? I think the writers love Buffy and Willow the most -as well as Spike when he was still in the story. Those characters are the ones that get the most/best storylines.
During Season 7 Buffy had no feelings but love of a friendship with Xander...yet all of a sudden she does.
All of a sudden? It's been there since the beginning, Buffy had a sexual dream about Xander, and like you said, he was the only one by her side at the moment, the only one she talks to and train with. That ought to make her see him in a new and different light. We've seen so many scenes between Buffy and Xander in S8, working together, talking together, being there for each other, connecting. When she lost her powers, she thought it was time to tell Xander about her feelings, but she was too late, Xander already chose Dawn.
I believe Buffy has grown up a lot this season, yet with all the pressure she makes mistakes, trying so hard to keep it all together. I've listed the points where Buffy had grown up in:
In Touched Buffy tells Spike that "being the slayer always made her different, but it's her fault she stays that way." She stated that "people always tried to connect with her but she just pushed them away." Buffy has clearly taken this on board and has tried to change her behaviour;
- When she feels disconnected in A Beautiful Sunset she actually TELLS somebody! This is kinda huge for Buffy. Rather than stew in her own misery she talks to Xander about it and opens up.
- Satsu tries to connect with her and Buffy wants it. Yes the Buffy/Satsu relationship can be problematic and there was some "two way advantaging going on" but Buffy wanted to find a connection. She did not push Satsu away.
Other things include;
- Delegating her leadership with her friends. In S7 Buffy took it upon herself to be the sole leader of the potentials but here she trusts others to work with her.
- Developing a solid rapport with her slayers. In S7 Buffy shut herself off and appeared unlikeable to the Potential Slayers. In S8 she’s struck the right balance between being friendly with them whilst still earning their respect.
- Rather than hide behind an ice queen persona (like she did in Get It Done) Buffy shows her feelings over Aiko's death and lets Willow comfort her.
Jan 25 2010 07:41 pm #192ladycat713
Guest
The thing is she should have pushed Satsu away. There was no advantage on Satsu's part. Sure she got to sleep with the woman she loved but after she was done with her she was give a promotion that will always look suspicious and have people questioning how she earned it for the rest of her days. She'll have to work one heck of a lot harder than any other Slayer to earn any promotions not given by Buffy. That taint will always be there and color any relationships she has in the future especially if they're with another Slayer.
Plus Buffy ignored Satsu's existence the next time she saw her after the promotion and Kennedy was sent to make sure that Satsu knew nothing further would happen with Buffy which is frankly insulting to Satsu that she is now just a problem to be handled by a third party. This behavior will also color her future relationships with other women. She'll be less likely to trust in the first place and more likely to not give a second chance for small infractions. Satsu gave Buffy her heart in her hands and gave her hope and Buffy crushed that hope. Even Kennedy admuitted to Satsu that Buffy led her on. That right there clearly states that all the advantage was Buffy's.Like Dawn's betrayal of Kenny , this will have long lasting effects. Unfortunately Satsu doesn't have the same option that Kenny had to do something to make Buffy think.
The delegation was necessary, There's a lot more girls now and they're all Slayers not Potentials.
The rapport developing can be considered self defense not to mention cultivating Slayers to be on her side affords her some protection (after all look what happened in EP when she didn't develop a rapport).
She showed her feelings to Willow. It would've shown a lot more openess if it had been a random Slayer.
I applaud your optimistic outlook and I wish I could see it the same but there's too much evidence to the contrary.
And yes Biley was wrong, even without the whole neo Nazi Initative (and it's ironic that Buffy's Jewish friend practically shoved her into bed with a Nazi). thing.In one of TalesofSpike's stories "Unfinished Business " there's this convo between Spike and Nina
"You tell me?" Spike suggested, drawing deep on his cigarette. "How'd you feel if for years the guy you loved only ever seemed interested when there was no one else interested in him? Evil doctors, unfaithful ex-boyfriend soldiers - an' you're the student here, but correct me if I'm wrong... a TA as screws his students, so far outta line that even she should have realised the corn-fed Iowa goodness was just a front -..."
Spike paused and raised an eyebrow, gratified when Nina's face screwed up into an involuntary grimace.
"Her TA?" she asked, as if hoping Spike might at least confirm that Buffy hadn't been in any of Riley's classes.
It says it all about the wrongness. And didn't her friends try to set Buffy up with Riley in season 8 knowing about his suck jobs and his turning tail and running when she needed him the most?
The way season 8 is going it seems like the writers actually hate thier own characters. Maybe they've come to resent them.
Xander seems to be doing the best of the characters.
Plus Buffy ignored Satsu's existence the next time she saw her after the promotion and Kennedy was sent to make sure that Satsu knew nothing further would happen with Buffy which is frankly insulting to Satsu that she is now just a problem to be handled by a third party. This behavior will also color her future relationships with other women. She'll be less likely to trust in the first place and more likely to not give a second chance for small infractions. Satsu gave Buffy her heart in her hands and gave her hope and Buffy crushed that hope. Even Kennedy admuitted to Satsu that Buffy led her on. That right there clearly states that all the advantage was Buffy's.Like Dawn's betrayal of Kenny , this will have long lasting effects. Unfortunately Satsu doesn't have the same option that Kenny had to do something to make Buffy think.
The delegation was necessary, There's a lot more girls now and they're all Slayers not Potentials.
The rapport developing can be considered self defense not to mention cultivating Slayers to be on her side affords her some protection (after all look what happened in EP when she didn't develop a rapport).
She showed her feelings to Willow. It would've shown a lot more openess if it had been a random Slayer.
I applaud your optimistic outlook and I wish I could see it the same but there's too much evidence to the contrary.
And yes Biley was wrong, even without the whole neo Nazi Initative (and it's ironic that Buffy's Jewish friend practically shoved her into bed with a Nazi). thing.In one of TalesofSpike's stories "Unfinished Business " there's this convo between Spike and Nina
"You tell me?" Spike suggested, drawing deep on his cigarette. "How'd you feel if for years the guy you loved only ever seemed interested when there was no one else interested in him? Evil doctors, unfaithful ex-boyfriend soldiers - an' you're the student here, but correct me if I'm wrong... a TA as screws his students, so far outta line that even she should have realised the corn-fed Iowa goodness was just a front -..."
Spike paused and raised an eyebrow, gratified when Nina's face screwed up into an involuntary grimace.
"Her TA?" she asked, as if hoping Spike might at least confirm that Buffy hadn't been in any of Riley's classes.
It says it all about the wrongness. And didn't her friends try to set Buffy up with Riley in season 8 knowing about his suck jobs and his turning tail and running when she needed him the most?
The way season 8 is going it seems like the writers actually hate thier own characters. Maybe they've come to resent them.
Xander seems to be doing the best of the characters.
There was no advantage on Satsu's part.
She knew that Buffy wasn't gay. That there would be no future. Buffy only wanted to feel connected and loved. Satsu knew all of that and yet she slept with her in hopes that Buffy would change her mind. That was selfish. She used Buffy's disconnection and thirst for love, hoping that having sex with her would turn her gay somehow. Both girls used each other for selfish reasons, Buffy glossed over the fact that Satsu is in love with her, and Satsu glossed over the fact that Buffy doesn't swing that way.
Plus Buffy ignored Satsu's existence the next time she saw her after the promotion and Kennedy was sent to make sure that Satsu knew nothing further would happen with Buffy which is frankly insulting to Satsu that she is now just a problem to be handled by a third party.
I'll have to reread this issue again. I don't really remember it as I've only read it once.
She showed her feelings to Willow. It would've shown a lot more openess if it had been a random Slayer.
That's a huge step. Even if it's Willow. In S7, she never showed her feelings to anyone but Spike. She cut herself off from her friends. It's a progress that now she can open up to Xander (I don't think she opens up to Willow, she's still got issues with her). Also, the whole act of sadness over Akio's death is a progress, too. Remember what Buffy said about the dead girl in Get It Done?
And didn't her friends try to set Buffy up with Riley in season 8 knowing about his suck jobs and his turning tail and running when she needed him the most?
When was that?
Xander seems to be doing the best of the characters.
I rather Xander has a huge, complicated arc like Buffy and Willow instead of being just the supportive, nice guy.
I applaud your optimistic outlook and I wish I could see it the same but there's too much evidence to the contrary.
You know, S7 is my least favorite. I hated it so much I wanted to strangle myself, even written hateful reviews about it. But then, I decided to read reviews by fans who loved and enjoyed it. It helped. And I'm much happier for it. I suggest you read reviews written by either Stomwreath or Emmie, they're always filled with depth and great analysis. Stop reading for readers who dislike S8. It might help if you read more positive reviews.
She knew that Buffy wasn't gay. That there would be no future. Buffy only wanted to feel connected and loved. Satsu knew all of that and yet she slept with her in hopes that Buffy would change her mind. That was selfish. She used Buffy's disconnection and thirst for love, hoping that having sex with her would turn her gay somehow. Both girls used each other for selfish reasons, Buffy glossed over the fact that Satsu is in love with her, and Satsu glossed over the fact that Buffy doesn't swing that way.
Plus Buffy ignored Satsu's existence the next time she saw her after the promotion and Kennedy was sent to make sure that Satsu knew nothing further would happen with Buffy which is frankly insulting to Satsu that she is now just a problem to be handled by a third party.
I'll have to reread this issue again. I don't really remember it as I've only read it once.
She showed her feelings to Willow. It would've shown a lot more openess if it had been a random Slayer.
That's a huge step. Even if it's Willow. In S7, she never showed her feelings to anyone but Spike. She cut herself off from her friends. It's a progress that now she can open up to Xander (I don't think she opens up to Willow, she's still got issues with her). Also, the whole act of sadness over Akio's death is a progress, too. Remember what Buffy said about the dead girl in Get It Done?
And didn't her friends try to set Buffy up with Riley in season 8 knowing about his suck jobs and his turning tail and running when she needed him the most?
When was that?
Xander seems to be doing the best of the characters.
I rather Xander has a huge, complicated arc like Buffy and Willow instead of being just the supportive, nice guy.
I applaud your optimistic outlook and I wish I could see it the same but there's too much evidence to the contrary.
You know, S7 is my least favorite. I hated it so much I wanted to strangle myself, even written hateful reviews about it. But then, I decided to read reviews by fans who loved and enjoyed it. It helped. And I'm much happier for it. I suggest you read reviews written by either Stomwreath or Emmie, they're always filled with depth and great analysis. Stop reading for readers who dislike S8. It might help if you read more positive reviews.
Good Thought Sosa Lola - getting that other perspective is really good for bringing objectivity and making you really think about your own pov.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 26 2010 01:56 am #195ladycat713
Guest
Buffy slept with Satsu twice. She obviously does swing that way. You can really run around saying you're straight if you've slept with someone of the same sex and enjoyed it. You can say you're bi with a really strong preference for the opposite sex but you can't say you are astraight. It's in the definitions.
I also consider Willow to be bi but just a massive control freak who has to define herself as gay or straight. Either that or the writers are fanboys who have serious issues with making anyone bisexual outright and just want to show as much girl on girl as possible.
And when you're in love you put yourself forward even if you think you'll be shot down. Not to mention that Buffy invited Satsu to see her later , maybe Buffy made the first move knowing she wouldn't be turned down.
I also consider Willow to be bi but just a massive control freak who has to define herself as gay or straight. Either that or the writers are fanboys who have serious issues with making anyone bisexual outright and just want to show as much girl on girl as possible.
And when you're in love you put yourself forward even if you think you'll be shot down. Not to mention that Buffy invited Satsu to see her later , maybe Buffy made the first move knowing she wouldn't be turned down.
I think that technically they have made Buffy Bi - can't call yourself "straight" if you have been with a member of the same sex twice - I also think of Willow more as bi-sexual than a strict lesbian. Think her character would be with either sex if she felt love for a person.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 26 2010 06:09 am #197ladycat713
Guest
I meant to say CAN'T really run around saying you're straight not can. I wish you could edit your posting before someone else posts after you.
And even if Buffy didn't initiate sex asking Satsu to see her later alone like that was encouraging her.
And even if Buffy didn't initiate sex asking Satsu to see her later alone like that was encouraging her.
Guys for positive S8 reviews, check these livejournals:
Stormwreath (I've pressed the S8 tag)
Angearia (I've also pressed the S8 tag)
Stormwreath (I've pressed the S8 tag)
Angearia (I've also pressed the S8 tag)
I haven't seen the comics but have read this thread with interest. It seems there are so many contradictions, has everyone had personality transplants? Buffy robbing banks and fancying Xander, that's real mature... or perhaps I've got the wrong impression. I never thought I'd say it but I'm glad this wasn't on TV, it'd be even more upsetting than S7.
Jan 26 2010 03:04 pm #200BloodyHell
Guest
"I never thought I'd say it but I'm glad this wasn't on TV, it'd be even more upsetting than S7."
That's exactly what I was thinking...
That's exactly what I was thinking...
Jan 26 2010 11:22 pm #201ladycat713
Guest
It just hit me that a character drawn like a 12 year old has a sex life *shudder*.
Here is the link to all the reviews and discussions and other excellent info on the comic seasons -
http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/47241.html
http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/47241.html
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sosa Losa, I went and took your advice and read some of teh positive reviews on the season (I don't have time to look over it all), and I gotta say- still think they're horrible.
Though, I do like Xander in the comics, and he was always the character I hated the most in the show (or at least he's tied with Riley), so I guess they're doing at least something right in them. Not much, but it's something.
Though, I do like Xander in the comics, and he was always the character I hated the most in the show (or at least he's tied with Riley), so I guess they're doing at least something right in them. Not much, but it's something.
~ Niori ~
Here is the link to latest interviews for Buffy Comic Season -
Scott Allie Interview: http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10216
Jeanty Interview: http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10218&page=1
Scott Allie Interview: http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10216
Jeanty Interview: http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10218&page=1
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here's a link to the preview page for Angel #30. At least this guy Brian Denham draws a really gorgeous Spike. God knows what he'll look like when that Jeanty guy draws him, probably 13. And WTF is that limbs turning to dust stuff? Poor Spike. What does he mean by preferring when his limbs didn't dust and could be sewn back on? Sorry ...not following AtF. I just like to look at the reviews and preview pages.
link...www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1002/16/idwfirsts.htm
Enjoy...
And WTF is that limbs turning to dust stuff? Poor Spike. What does he mean by preferring when his limbs didn't dust and could be sewn back on? Sorry ...not following AtF. I just like to look at the reviews and preview pages.link...www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1002/16/idwfirsts.htm
Enjoy...
Umm...since when did vampire's limbs grow back? I think I missed that memo. lol
I think what he's talking about when he says his limbs could be sown back on, was when Dana cut off his hands (which, begs the question, why didn't they dust?).
I think what he's talking about when he says his limbs could be sown back on, was when Dana cut off his hands (which, begs the question, why didn't they dust?).
~ Niori ~
Feb 17 2010 08:12 am #207ladycat713
Guest
Well there was that vampire James who had surgery that removed his heart and both him and it didn't dust for a while. It could be that as long as the head isn't cut off or the heart pierced than a vampire's limbs can't dust.
In james' situation though the surgery was special because in ordinary circumstances if you removed the heart the vampire and his heart would dust immediately.
In james' situation though the surgery was special because in ordinary circumstances if you removed the heart the vampire and his heart would dust immediately.
Can someone please post the episode title for the James story - I would love to watch that one again, but it has been a while since I watched Angel.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Thanks for the "Heartthrob" info -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 24 2010 02:42 am #211coalitiongirl
Here's something I've been thinking about lately- if there had been no Spike (heaven forfend! ), don't you think that this new twist with Twilight being Angel would make a fascinating love story? For the first time since the end of S2, I'm actually thinking that Bangel would be interesting... and I know that I love Spuffy far too much to ever stomach Bangel, and I would be furious if it actually happened, but wouldn't it be quite a story for Buffy and Twilight to get together? :ducks from glares:
), don't you think that this new twist with Twilight being Angel would make a fascinating love story? For the first time since the end of S2, I'm actually thinking that Bangel would be interesting... and I know that I love Spuffy far too much to ever stomach Bangel, and I would be furious if it actually happened, but wouldn't it be quite a story for Buffy and Twilight to get together? :ducks from glares:I have a feeling that Twilight is finally going to be used as a terrible character development for Buffy - how could the character of Angel/Angelus be salvaged and useful to the IDW company if Twilight/Angel/Angelus is not put back into a viable Champion/Hero status.
I just watched a new dvd interview "The Master at Play" and while the interview is from 2005 it is all about Joss Whedon and how his process and his fundamental concept of writing. With his commitment to the emotional connections between writer and audience and the attempt to bring honest treatment of how humans function - I keep thinking that he will use a very strong emotional treatment for his resolution of this season.
The arcs have been going more and more into strong emotions for Buffy and the future "love" covers, for me suggest a struggle for mind and emotional trauma - while they show Buffy and Angel/Angelus as lovers, they don't show joyful reunion - they don't to me. His heroine, IMO, is in need of some big time character and emotional development -
Joss Whedon and Darkhorse owe the other company consideration and respect for their business future - so the IDW franchise has to be left with a clear and viable Angelverse when Buffy Season Eight is finished.
What do you mean by having Buffy and Angel meet up again? In a relationship, lover or friendship, or as a study of the characters as they are a now?
I just watched a new dvd interview "The Master at Play" and while the interview is from 2005 it is all about Joss Whedon and how his process and his fundamental concept of writing. With his commitment to the emotional connections between writer and audience and the attempt to bring honest treatment of how humans function - I keep thinking that he will use a very strong emotional treatment for his resolution of this season.
The arcs have been going more and more into strong emotions for Buffy and the future "love" covers, for me suggest a struggle for mind and emotional trauma - while they show Buffy and Angel/Angelus as lovers, they don't show joyful reunion - they don't to me. His heroine, IMO, is in need of some big time character and emotional development -
Joss Whedon and Darkhorse owe the other company consideration and respect for their business future - so the IDW franchise has to be left with a clear and viable Angelverse when Buffy Season Eight is finished.
What do you mean by having Buffy and Angel meet up again? In a relationship, lover or friendship, or as a study of the characters as they are a now?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm giving you the hairy eyeball coalitiongirl...giggles. And then what the heck is that stare that dude does in the movie The New Guy...argh I forget but let me tell you that is what I am picturing in my head oggling your comment about Bangel lmao...If there was *Shudders at the thought!!!* no Spike then maybe if Angel/Twilight had a different background. That is HUMAN background. Because essentially that is the idea I got with how they used this 'SOUL' business. I just never cared for Liam or Angelus. The Master had more appeal to me and he was Mr Kool Aid mouth.
BUT...and this is a big but, I do agree with you. They are really glorifying Twilight and Buffy. They are similar. Of course so is Willow and Buffy except Willow doesn't have the strength...although, she could if you take into the fact she could empower herself...I am really beginning to think they are ultimately going to push in that direction...Willow and Buffy, not Buffy and Twilight/Angel.
This Angel/Twilight is a bit beyond different than he was on the show...so yes I can see where you are going with this...But I still shudder at the thought and bask in Spuffy land. LOL.
However, canon wise? Buffy doesn't belong with ANYONE. Sorry just don't see it. Yes I have serious Buffy issues.
BUT...and this is a big but, I do agree with you. They are really glorifying Twilight and Buffy. They are similar. Of course so is Willow and Buffy except Willow doesn't have the strength...although, she could if you take into the fact she could empower herself...I am really beginning to think they are ultimately going to push in that direction...Willow and Buffy, not Buffy and Twilight/Angel.
This Angel/Twilight is a bit beyond different than he was on the show...so yes I can see where you are going with this...But I still shudder at the thought and bask in Spuffy land. LOL.
However, canon wise? Buffy doesn't belong with ANYONE. Sorry just don't see it. Yes I have serious Buffy issues.
Under what circumstances would Buffy and Twilight get together? After all that Twilight has done Buffy would have to go into total emotional and character meltdown or she would have to become the antithesis of all her character - she would have to become Dark Buffy or Crazy Buffy to totally pathetic Buffy to hook up with Twilight -
Joss Whedon would really have to come up with a great plot and Slayer change to make Buffy-Twilight come out of this with their past relationship as lovers and friends still a good thing.
Joss Whedon would really have to come up with a great plot and Slayer change to make Buffy-Twilight come out of this with their past relationship as lovers and friends still a good thing.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 25 2010 03:54 am #215coalitiongirl
Oh, I don't think that they'd get together. But I do think it's interesting, and not unbelievable, considering that Buffy's past beaus weren't exactly paragons of goodness. If she could forgive Angelus and Spike, or even just carry on a sexual relationship with Spike, why not with Twilight? (I'm coming off as really pro-Bangel. For the record, I'm not. It makes me physically ill to watch. I despise it. I'm just intrigued by this development, and the fanfiction that could ensue from the Bangels, if they'd only remove the halo )
)I with you, totally interested in seeing where Joss Whedon is going to take his series - After all - he is the excutive producer if I have it right - I just can't see Buffy and Twilight being united in a positive relationlship - One of the worst nightmares of Buffy in the series is her fear of being turned - and that is exactly what is shown is happening in her mind in those preview panels. Course, the writers have been playing the "clues game" throughout the comic book season -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 25 2010 03:24 pm #217ladycat713
Guest
What would be really neat is if Twilight !Angel turned Buffy and she became Good!Vamped!Buffy instead of Bad!Slayer!Buffy like she has been and realized how badly she screwed up. The Scoobies probably wouldn't believe her good intentions and her remorse over her bad behavior. Then have her go on the run and run into Spike, who eventually believes her change of heart.
This would be a way to thumb thier nose at all the believers that the vamped person is a completely different person than the one they were when human like the Bangels seem to believe (even though we know Angel was a jerk at best when human and it's makes more sense that part of the curse made him feel guilty and he was overcoming the guilt part partially through the delusion that he was a different person. ) .
Maybe have it be discovered that a a completely unknown rider to the original curse (not the redos by Willow) attached something to the person who broke the spell (thinking that the person who broke it might know better than to hang around a cursed vampire) that would eventually turn them into a dark individual (and partially start to influence those around them) . It started to work on Buffy and first showed the obvious signs when she knowingly joined the Initative (a Nazi like organization) and sleeping with one of them , Buffy then died in a state of grace , sacrificing herself for Dawn an d the Buffy Cuse was put on hold and didn't keep her out of Heaven. Bringing her back with magic however then and her experiencing the same thing which broke Angel's curse (except with Spike) kicked it into overdrive. It flared badly for a while and then subsided after Buffy was shot and Willow used magic to heal her (a positive spell unlike most of Willow's by then) . Using the Scythe to create all those baby Slayers let loose the curse in full force, the dark effects now had much more material to work with and corruption to spread.
Oops, I think I plotbunnied again, anybody want to take it up?
This would be a way to thumb thier nose at all the believers that the vamped person is a completely different person than the one they were when human like the Bangels seem to believe (even though we know Angel was a jerk at best when human and it's makes more sense that part of the curse made him feel guilty and he was overcoming the guilt part partially through the delusion that he was a different person. ) .
Maybe have it be discovered that a a completely unknown rider to the original curse (not the redos by Willow) attached something to the person who broke the spell (thinking that the person who broke it might know better than to hang around a cursed vampire) that would eventually turn them into a dark individual (and partially start to influence those around them) . It started to work on Buffy and first showed the obvious signs when she knowingly joined the Initative (a Nazi like organization) and sleeping with one of them , Buffy then died in a state of grace , sacrificing herself for Dawn an d the Buffy Cuse was put on hold and didn't keep her out of Heaven. Bringing her back with magic however then and her experiencing the same thing which broke Angel's curse (except with Spike) kicked it into overdrive. It flared badly for a while and then subsided after Buffy was shot and Willow used magic to heal her (a positive spell unlike most of Willow's by then) . Using the Scythe to create all those baby Slayers let loose the curse in full force, the dark effects now had much more material to work with and corruption to spread.
Oops, I think I plotbunnied again, anybody want to take it up?
Feb 25 2010 07:15 pm #218pfeifferpack
Just to add a touch of lightness... I'd adore Josh if it were Edward and company from the Twilight books but that's just me. I had some of the comics but have been turned off by the Buffy ones (loved the After the Fall Angel verse comics though). Don't know how I'll feel about the great reveal since it almost feels like a different world altogether to me.
Kathleen
Kathleen
Guest -
But you are going on the assumption that the writers are putting forth a "bad slayer Buffy" model - which I don't think they are, that is I don't believe they see her as being a bad slayer model.
I'm with you Kathleen - I really enjoyed the After the Fall series - and the additional character issues that were done for some of the other character - think those were called First Night or something like that.
When Angel/Angelus and all are brought out of the LA Hell dimension - was there an indication that this reality is being seen different - there is a panel that shows Angel/Angelus being admired and given credit for saving a bunch of people - but there is a suggestion that it was something that Spike actually does and not Angel/Angelus. Did you read this issue?
But you are going on the assumption that the writers are putting forth a "bad slayer Buffy" model - which I don't think they are, that is I don't believe they see her as being a bad slayer model.
I'm with you Kathleen - I really enjoyed the After the Fall series - and the additional character issues that were done for some of the other character - think those were called First Night or something like that.
When Angel/Angelus and all are brought out of the LA Hell dimension - was there an indication that this reality is being seen different - there is a panel that shows Angel/Angelus being admired and given credit for saving a bunch of people - but there is a suggestion that it was something that Spike actually does and not Angel/Angelus. Did you read this issue?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 25 2010 08:09 pm #220coalitiongirl
...Although it's not completely impossible that they'll totally alter the mythos of the comics and deduce that Buffy's way off track. I remember about twelve years ago in the Star Wars Expanded Universe a book came out that completely retconned the ten years of canon beforehand by claiming that everything that one of the main characters did was under an evil influence without realizing it. I wouldn't put it past Joss to do the same, especially since certain aspects of Buffy's recent actions are questionable at best.
Don't know about anyone else, but using the "under the evil influence" would be the such a weak plot line - totally lame, just as weak as the resolution to the Tibetan goddesses being sent back into the ground without any strong exploration of how they were able to be defeated - it was like they were there causing destruction and then Buffy and Willow get all this power, open up a huge hole and they get thrown back into their underground realm.
I understand that the comic book format and genre have to work on a simplified story telling but I still think that the story demands a certain level of focus and connections. Since many of the season eight readers, like myself, are new to this genre - we are having a difficult time adjusting to this style of writing -
I understand that the comic book format and genre have to work on a simplified story telling but I still think that the story demands a certain level of focus and connections. Since many of the season eight readers, like myself, are new to this genre - we are having a difficult time adjusting to this style of writing -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 25 2010 10:59 pm #222ladycat713
Guest
Given how bad the storylines have gotten some kind of retcon may be thier only option, even if they only retcon Buffy's behavior it would still leave the others bad behavior to be considered. And a Buffy no longer under some bad influence could look back at her actions and be horrified and remorseful .
And I've been reading comic books for years and it's not the format that' the problem.
I think that they came up with the mass Slayer activation thinking it would be a great idea and hadn't worked it out in practice nor had they looked at how hypocritical Buffy was being in calling for thier activation and that whole time to choose speech when they really didn't have a choice and the girls who weren't there certainly weren't given a vote was just wrong.
If they had thought it out they would've had Buffy tell them that activating them gives them a fighting chance and had them activated before they got on the bus instead of waiting until they're under attack. That way there wouldn't be an army to deal with and you could have a cohesive central location with maybe 2 or 3 girls stationed at any active Hellmouth who could call for help if they needed it . There wouldn't have been so many superflous Slayers running around. It could have shown them learning how to deal with powers and everyday life instead of having them shut off from humanity where they might forget what they're fighting for.
With fewer Slayers you could really bring yourself to care about them instead of them being a pretty much faceless horde. And that way Buffy wouldn't really be the leader of a Slayer army, she's cut out for fighting not leading on any long term basis.
And I've been reading comic books for years and it's not the format that' the problem.
I think that they came up with the mass Slayer activation thinking it would be a great idea and hadn't worked it out in practice nor had they looked at how hypocritical Buffy was being in calling for thier activation and that whole time to choose speech when they really didn't have a choice and the girls who weren't there certainly weren't given a vote was just wrong.
If they had thought it out they would've had Buffy tell them that activating them gives them a fighting chance and had them activated before they got on the bus instead of waiting until they're under attack. That way there wouldn't be an army to deal with and you could have a cohesive central location with maybe 2 or 3 girls stationed at any active Hellmouth who could call for help if they needed it . There wouldn't have been so many superflous Slayers running around. It could have shown them learning how to deal with powers and everyday life instead of having them shut off from humanity where they might forget what they're fighting for.
With fewer Slayers you could really bring yourself to care about them instead of them being a pretty much faceless horde. And that way Buffy wouldn't really be the leader of a Slayer army, she's cut out for fighting not leading on any long term basis.
I agree with all that. They didn't think out the consequences of the Slayer spell and now they have all these thousands of nameless girls that really nobody cares about.Let's face it... people care about Buffy, the Scoobies, Giles etc. So they don't know what to do with all of them. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I didn't care about the Potentials all that much in S7. They got on my nerves, so I could care less about thousands of girls I've never seen b4. I guess that's why I stopped reading, it really held no interest for me. And Buffy was a hypocrite to activate all those girls w/o any of their permission. Cause really they ALL helped SO much with closing the Hellmouth.
It should have been the SD Potentials only and they should have done it b4 they got into the school. God, that was so stupid. And no matter what the Ubervamps were gonna kick their ass, cause they were totally outnumbered .If it wasn't for Spike and his amulet, they would have been overrun and killed. So basically it was a stupid plan no matter what.What you said ladycat makes sense. It would have been 3- 4 girls stationed where the evil was and not all these hundreds in a remote Scottish castle ,shut off from everything. That's why I keep saying it's a fanboy fantasy. Hundreds of girls stuck 2gether, gee what are they gonna do? :eyeroll: And hell yeah Buffy is definitely a fighter and not a leader of a huge Army.
here's the Georges Jeanty Q&A ...www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php
scroll down to #4 bamph...who obviously needs Buffy to love Angel 4eva but Jeanty's answer is really weird. Basically he's saying Buffy loves Angel but is gonna go to Spike to get her freak on or something like that? Makes Buffy sound pretty skanky and a user to boot. At least that's how I see that reply. He's saying Angel is home and Spike is a cabin in the woods? WTF? How long has it been since Angel is so not home. Do these people even know their characters? Have they ever watched the show after S3? Seriously I think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves. GAH!
It should have been the SD Potentials only and they should have done it b4 they got into the school. God, that was so stupid. And no matter what the Ubervamps were gonna kick their ass, cause they were totally outnumbered .If it wasn't for Spike and his amulet, they would have been overrun and killed. So basically it was a stupid plan no matter what.What you said ladycat makes sense. It would have been 3- 4 girls stationed where the evil was and not all these hundreds in a remote Scottish castle ,shut off from everything. That's why I keep saying it's a fanboy fantasy. Hundreds of girls stuck 2gether, gee what are they gonna do? :eyeroll: And hell yeah Buffy is definitely a fighter and not a leader of a huge Army.here's the Georges Jeanty Q&A ...www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php
scroll down to #4 bamph...who obviously needs Buffy to love Angel 4eva
but Jeanty's answer is really weird. Basically he's saying Buffy loves Angel but is gonna go to Spike to get her freak on or something like that? Makes Buffy sound pretty skanky and a user to boot. At least that's how I see that reply. He's saying Angel is home and Spike is a cabin in the woods? WTF? How long has it been since Angel is so not home. Do these people even know their characters? Have they ever watched the show after S3? Seriously I think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves. GAH!Feb 26 2010 06:06 am #224ladycat713
Guest
And part of that fanboy fantasy is that when any gay woman shows interest in a straight woman she instantly becomes bisexual. And with that one instance shown then the fanboys can extrapolate that happening on a larger scale with all these girls. Maybe think of them having pillow fights in shorty pajamas (wasn't that a brief fantasy Xander had in season 7?).
Also I believe that they showed some scen with girls playing strip poker with Andrew, didn't they?
If all you're interewted in showing is fanboy fantasies , make some new characters and a new book for it and call it fanboy fantasy , don't turn good characters into the paper equivalent of a jiggle movie.
I wonder if Jeanty realizes that he just vilified the character of Buffy. It reminds of this Buffy writer on ff.net called Queen Boadecia (?) who hated Spike so much that she turned the characters she liked into monsters to hurt him. Spike actually came off as the best character even though she outright stated she hated him.
Angel, the guy who left and who only showed up just to get her attention and leave (even after promising Buffy he'd stay as long as she needed him after Joyce's death) is home and Spike the guy who stood by her through thick and thin even when she was dead and only left for a short period after a devastating act to make an act of contrition is the vacation home???? Sounds bass- ackwards to me.
Also I believe that they showed some scen with girls playing strip poker with Andrew, didn't they?
If all you're interewted in showing is fanboy fantasies , make some new characters and a new book for it and call it fanboy fantasy , don't turn good characters into the paper equivalent of a jiggle movie.
I wonder if Jeanty realizes that he just vilified the character of Buffy. It reminds of this Buffy writer on ff.net called Queen Boadecia (?) who hated Spike so much that she turned the characters she liked into monsters to hurt him. Spike actually came off as the best character even though she outright stated she hated him.
Angel, the guy who left and who only showed up just to get her attention and leave (even after promising Buffy he'd stay as long as she needed him after Joyce's death) is home and Spike the guy who stood by her through thick and thin even when she was dead and only left for a short period after a devastating act to make an act of contrition is the vacation home???? Sounds bass- ackwards to me.
Thanks much for posting the Jeanty link - you have to consider that this artist if very much in the Buffy-Angel/Angelus camp - Angel/Angelus is her true love.
In fact in the Angel After the Fall cycle, the issue of Angel's true love has already been addressed - Angel/Angelus speak to the issue and states that he thought he knew what true love was in his life - but that he was wrong, that he now understands true love in a much different level - it is not his love of Buffy, but his love of Connor that he avows as the true love of his life -
In fact in the Angel After the Fall cycle, the issue of Angel's true love has already been addressed - Angel/Angelus speak to the issue and states that he thought he knew what true love was in his life - but that he was wrong, that he now understands true love in a much different level - it is not his love of Buffy, but his love of Connor that he avows as the true love of his life -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sometimes I don't know why I read these things. They just get me annoyed and bad moody, Seriously... they should be locked in a room and forced to watch BtVS straight thru. ALL OF IT! That way maybe they could understand the characters they write about and draw.Cause after all it was Angel who helped out the summer Buffy was dead and watched Dawn and put up with Buffy's issues in S6 and went and got his soul for her and died to save the frikkin world. Ooops my bad..that was Spike. I thought Allie was an idiot, this guy Jeanty is not only a crappy artist but he's a moron too.
Yeah ,all women turn bi when a gay woman shows interest in them .Please. Can you imagine the uproar if they said that all gay women would turn straight if some hot guy paid attention to them ? They'd be raked over the coals, and with good reason but it's perfetly acceptable to say that about straight women.Yeah, that was one of the scenes they showed. Andrew and the girls playing strip poker. All the typical male fatasies.LOL..at "paper equivalent of a jiggle movie." These people have practically ruined Buffy for me. And i've lost alot of respect for Joss, too.
Yeah ,all women turn bi when a gay woman shows interest in them .Please. Can you imagine the uproar if they said that all gay women would turn straight if some hot guy paid attention to them ? They'd be raked over the coals, and with good reason but it's perfetly acceptable to say that about straight women.Yeah, that was one of the scenes they showed. Andrew and the girls playing strip poker. All the typical male fatasies.LOL..at "paper equivalent of a jiggle movie." These people have practically ruined Buffy for me.
And i've lost alot of respect for Joss, too.Jeanty really needs to understand that a personal perspective and opinion is not the truth of the series - and unless his description of the relationships between Buffy and Angel/Angelus and Spike are directly referenced to statements he is getting from Joss Whedon - the personal opinion should be kept strictly to a personal conversation - NOT put out as public statement about the characters.
We all are familiar with the saying "home is where the heart is" - Are we to understand that Buffy's heart is with Angel/Angelus? And what is Spike - is he still her vacation go to for relief from her real life? This personal description is so degrading, both for Spike and for Buffy - considering their sexual history in the series this smacks of Spike boy-toy escape and at worst putting Buffy back into the cold hearted cruel user of Spike as nothing more than a living sex toy.
How totally unprofessional - they only way that this kind of comment should ever be put out there by any of the creative people or DarkHorse representatives is to be clearly and categorically stated as "In my opinion..." Jeanty is seen as directly associated with the conceptual theme and truths to be applied to the Comic Book Season Eight - this is all put out here as new canon for the series. This statement from Jeanty makes it seems that Bangel is now the official and superior relationship - that Spike and Buffy, the most powerful and compelling of any of the arc from the entire series is little more than playtime and escapism for the prime heroic character - Buffy.
Maybe we should be calling their heroic mode "Buffy the skank."
Joss Whedon, unless he is giving this as his concept and description of what the relationships are between the vital characters in his Buffyverse and Angelverse - He should put a stop to all these statement being made by Scott Allie and Jeanty. Unless Joss Whedon is in agreement and now is making Buffy - Angel as the true lovers of his series - he should advise all of the creative staff to not ever put out their personal opinions about these relationships out into the public. Either he should stop this public statment from being made or he should grow a pair and make a statement that Buffy and Angel are the "true love" in his Buffyverse.
We all are familiar with the saying "home is where the heart is" - Are we to understand that Buffy's heart is with Angel/Angelus? And what is Spike - is he still her vacation go to for relief from her real life? This personal description is so degrading, both for Spike and for Buffy - considering their sexual history in the series this smacks of Spike boy-toy escape and at worst putting Buffy back into the cold hearted cruel user of Spike as nothing more than a living sex toy.
How totally unprofessional - they only way that this kind of comment should ever be put out there by any of the creative people or DarkHorse representatives is to be clearly and categorically stated as "In my opinion..." Jeanty is seen as directly associated with the conceptual theme and truths to be applied to the Comic Book Season Eight - this is all put out here as new canon for the series. This statement from Jeanty makes it seems that Bangel is now the official and superior relationship - that Spike and Buffy, the most powerful and compelling of any of the arc from the entire series is little more than playtime and escapism for the prime heroic character - Buffy.
Maybe we should be calling their heroic mode "Buffy the skank."
Joss Whedon, unless he is giving this as his concept and description of what the relationships are between the vital characters in his Buffyverse and Angelverse - He should put a stop to all these statement being made by Scott Allie and Jeanty. Unless Joss Whedon is in agreement and now is making Buffy - Angel as the true lovers of his series - he should advise all of the creative staff to not ever put out their personal opinions about these relationships out into the public. Either he should stop this public statment from being made or he should grow a pair and make a statement that Buffy and Angel are the "true love" in his Buffyverse.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Q&A with Georges Jeanty Session 9 *COMPLETE*
« Thread Started on Jan 13, 2010, 2:35pm »
Georges: Well, worried seems a little heavy handed. There is a reason that Twilight is who he is and because of that it will affect the ending of Season 8. I think after all this is said and done, the question of who Twilight is isn't as important as what that means for the future of vampires and Slayers. This is cataclysmic stuff we're talking about here. Like I've said, you're really going to want a Season 9 after Season 8 is over. This is going to take the Scoobies in a whole new direction, I promise you.
Georges: Nope, I'll be done with 34 by the end of next week. Wouldn't you like to come by the studio right about now..? I should be starting #35 soon after. So you can see when I tell you Twilight's reveal was really just the tip of this Buffyverse iceberg! Prepare yourselves, people this ride is gonna get intense!
Be interesting to see where Joss Whedon is going to take his Buffyverse - What happens in the Fray timeline has made a huge change with the separation of Slayer attributes between Fray and her twin -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
nmcil: Don't know about anyone else, but using the "under the evil influence" would be the such a weak plot line - totally lame, just as weak as the resolution to the Tibetan goddesses being sent back into the ground without any strong exploration of how they were able to be defeated - it was like they were there causing destruction and then Buffy and Willow get all this power, open up a huge hole and they get thrown back into their underground realm.
from the Scott Allie Q&A:
5. Maggie: The reveal on where Buffy's new power comes from is tremendous -- especially the way it contrasts with the geek fest Buffy and Xander were enjoying. My question is about how that power source relates to Retreat. We've had a few dead slayers before the big battle (and world-wide slaughter). Has Buffy been getting incremental gains -- with the big power explosion because of the sheer number of dead slayers? Or did something else set it off, like whole exercise of the slayers with Buffy giving up their power to the goddesses? Basically: has this been going on all along (just not noticeably), or was there a particular trigger mechanism that suddenly allowed Buffy to be powered by a giant dead slayer battery?
Scott Allie: More will be revealed about this over the next few issues
9. Vergil: Which cover from 36 to 40 do you think fans will talk about the most or will get the most attention?
Scott Allie: It's actually hard to say. The one I think I can single out is #40—that that's the cover that will cause the least stir. There are definitely things about #36-#39 that're gonna get you guys talking. There are gonna be people angry over Jo's cover for #36 who'll blame me, but Joss told us exactly what #36 should be, described it pretty specifically. Georges's cover for #36 is fun, probably get reposted a lot, but not stir much controversy. Some people will be excited and mystified by one of the covers for #37—speculation will run rampant. People are gonna get real worked up about #38, and #39 will get people amped up, I think. Those are my predictions.
Scott Allie: The point of bringing Spike in now will be more clear to you sometime after we bring him in. You guys can't expected to get it yet, because you don't know anything about the story. But Spike occupies a significant place in Buffy's life, and the lives of these other characters. He also occupies a significant place in IDW's publishing line. So not bringing him in from the get go worked for us, but bringing him in eventually was somewhat inevitable. And I hope that down the road a bit you'll agree that bringing him in proves to be meaningful. The landscape for these characters is gonna look different after Season 8, and we're addressing a changing world.
It sounds like things are going to be really different and break away from the series after this season ends - Wonder if this is going to be the place where Spike is taken away from his history with Buffy as an important connection and put on his own path -
from the Scott Allie Q&A:
5. Maggie: The reveal on where Buffy's new power comes from is tremendous -- especially the way it contrasts with the geek fest Buffy and Xander were enjoying. My question is about how that power source relates to Retreat. We've had a few dead slayers before the big battle (and world-wide slaughter). Has Buffy been getting incremental gains -- with the big power explosion because of the sheer number of dead slayers? Or did something else set it off, like whole exercise of the slayers with Buffy giving up their power to the goddesses? Basically: has this been going on all along (just not noticeably), or was there a particular trigger mechanism that suddenly allowed Buffy to be powered by a giant dead slayer battery?
Scott Allie: More will be revealed about this over the next few issues
9. Vergil: Which cover from 36 to 40 do you think fans will talk about the most or will get the most attention?
Scott Allie: It's actually hard to say. The one I think I can single out is #40—that that's the cover that will cause the least stir. There are definitely things about #36-#39 that're gonna get you guys talking. There are gonna be people angry over Jo's cover for #36 who'll blame me, but Joss told us exactly what #36 should be, described it pretty specifically. Georges's cover for #36 is fun, probably get reposted a lot, but not stir much controversy. Some people will be excited and mystified by one of the covers for #37—speculation will run rampant. People are gonna get real worked up about #38, and #39 will get people amped up, I think. Those are my predictions.
Scott Allie: The point of bringing Spike in now will be more clear to you sometime after we bring him in. You guys can't expected to get it yet, because you don't know anything about the story. But Spike occupies a significant place in Buffy's life, and the lives of these other characters. He also occupies a significant place in IDW's publishing line. So not bringing him in from the get go worked for us, but bringing him in eventually was somewhat inevitable. And I hope that down the road a bit you'll agree that bringing him in proves to be meaningful. The landscape for these characters is gonna look different after Season 8, and we're addressing a changing world.
It sounds like things are going to be really different and break away from the series after this season ends - Wonder if this is going to be the place where Spike is taken away from his history with Buffy as an important connection and put on his own path -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 26 2010 04:27 pm #230ladycat713
Guest
When Season 8 started I wanted Spike to show up and for there to be some kind of reunion or closure , maybe a few explanations from both of them but now I don't want Spike even on the same continent as Buffy unless he's going to call her out on her behavior and b****-slap her into next year. Maybe find out about Dawn's cheating and tell her how disappointed he is and her and explain to her the pain the cheated on person feels and how he and Joyce would commisserate over that very thing.
I've been thinking about Spike giving Buffy the wake up call, perhaps he's going to be the prince Buffy has to rescue. I just hope he's not one of Angel's lackies.
Maybe find out about Dawn's cheating and tell her how disappointed he is and her and explain to her the pain the cheated on person feels and how he and Joyce would commisserate over that very thing.
I'm not sure Spike would feel any sympathy towards Kenny once he knows what he did to Dawn. Cheating on the guy doesn't excuse the awful things he did. He surely falls under the abusive boyfriend category.
Maybe find out about Dawn's cheating and tell her how disappointed he is and her and explain to her the pain the cheated on person feels and how he and Joyce would commisserate over that very thing.
I'm not sure Spike would feel any sympathy towards Kenny once he knows what he did to Dawn. Cheating on the guy doesn't excuse the awful things he did. He surely falls under the abusive boyfriend category.
"I'm not sure Spike would feel any sympathy towards Kenny once he knows what he did to Dawn. Cheating on the guy doesn't excuse the awful things he did. He surely falls under the abusive boyfriend category."
Agree - what that boyfriend did to Dawn, and maybe this theme of revenge will tie into why Twangel is created and at play in this season. That particular arc was never particularly given much of a foundation - not the personal experience and lesson for Dawn, but all the surrounding moral issues about Kenny's actions. The series, however never dealt with the moral choices and consequences from their prime character, and perhaps this will also be the MO for the comic book seasons.
Boy to I hate having all this time delay between issues - and they really should have made this a much smaller scale season - It has gone on just way too long - most of the time you can't remember what happened in the earlier season and vital elements are lost to the readers simply due to the long time delays -
Agree - what that boyfriend did to Dawn, and maybe this theme of revenge will tie into why Twangel is created and at play in this season. That particular arc was never particularly given much of a foundation - not the personal experience and lesson for Dawn, but all the surrounding moral issues about Kenny's actions. The series, however never dealt with the moral choices and consequences from their prime character, and perhaps this will also be the MO for the comic book seasons.
Boy to I hate having all this time delay between issues - and they really should have made this a much smaller scale season - It has gone on just way too long - most of the time you can't remember what happened in the earlier season and vital elements are lost to the readers simply due to the long time delays -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 26 2010 09:23 pm #233ladycat713
Guest
I don't consider what Kenny did abusive. After all he knew she'd be under the protection of a bunch of Slayers and at least one powerful witch. Plus wasn't it removed once she admitted and apologized.? He probably didn't realize that Scoobies don't admit guilt or apologize. The fact that she had to go though that many changes before she did admit and apologize says something horrific about the lessons she's learned from the Scoobies. I think being cursed was actually a good thing for Dawn as she got to learn that there's consequences for her actions and breaking someones heart should come with a lot of them.
And while Spike might get mad at Kenny because he'd go into protecto vamp mode I still think he'd be disappointed that Dawn took after Hank rather than Joyce in that respect.
In fact the Scoobies could have done with some awkward non lethal curse when they screwed up. LIke maybe having Willow feel exactly what Tara felt when she realized Willow was messing with her mind and have Willow know the pain she caused.
And while Spike might get mad at Kenny because he'd go into protecto vamp mode I still think he'd be disappointed that Dawn took after Hank rather than Joyce in that respect.
In fact the Scoobies could have done with some awkward non lethal curse when they screwed up. LIke maybe having Willow feel exactly what Tara felt when she realized Willow was messing with her mind and have Willow know the pain she caused.
I agree with you on Spike being disappointed with the choices she made - but I also think that he would feel sympathy for her and understand the emotional motivation that was at play with her - not making excuses for her, just saying that at this age young people make so many mistakes.
Not sure that I go along with your call on Kenny - but we all have our own perspectives - While it turned out as good life lessons for Dawn, it could just as equally been handled with an honest talk and expression of his feelings and the pain she caused. Of course, we would not have been treated to all those sexy images of Centaurite Dawn or those lovely images of Dawn the Living Doll - btw, again Dawn having her life imposed on by a male -
Not sure that I go along with your call on Kenny - but we all have our own perspectives - While it turned out as good life lessons for Dawn, it could just as equally been handled with an honest talk and expression of his feelings and the pain she caused. Of course, we would not have been treated to all those sexy images of Centaurite Dawn or those lovely images of Dawn the Living Doll - btw, again Dawn having her life imposed on by a male -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 27 2010 02:38 am #235ladycat713
Guest
The spin of betrayal doesn't exactly make a person want to sit down for an honest talk and the fact that Dawn cheated with his roommate made things much worse. I'd have liked to have found out fi Kenney had to leave college to escape the humiliation. Obviously going back to his room with the man his girlfriend betrayed him for would have been extremely difficult and it could have been impossible for him to get another room depending on whether any were available. And if you consider the curses Anya tried to cast on Xander after he left her at the altar (but it turns out she couldn't cast her own curses) then Dawn got off incredibly light. Love can make you crazy, heartbreak even worse. Plus I maintain that Kenny's behavior at least had long term positive effects on Dawn (maybe she'll break the Scooby mold) but the effects Dawn had on Kenny will be negative. The next time he falls in love he'll be a little less trusting. That person will have to work a lot harder to gain his trust and may never get it if he sees anything that makes him think that she may betray him.
And Buffy and Willow certainly imposed thier will on all those Slayers without thier permission .
And Buffy and Willow certainly imposed thier will on all those Slayers without thier permission .
I don't consider what Kenny did abusive.
He turned her into a freak -three freaks for months. She had to leave university, it completely disrupted her life. What Dawn deserved was Kenny breaking up with her and maybe the spreading the story of her being a cheater. I think Cordelia and Oz handled Xander and Willow's cheating much better than Kenny did. Oz decided to forgive Willow, which shows how much he loves her as well as being a forgiving character, which is wonderful. Cordelia spilled all Xander's secret about his family, which is a much suitable punishment than what Kenny had done.
Xander does descrive Kenny as "a nice guy who snapped" but that doesn't really descrive Kenny. That describes Anya, who stopped Spike from wishing Xander any harm after he got hurt by watching her sleep with Spike. She was wise enough to realize it was punishment enough.
Dawn sinned. She did Kenny wrong. Kenny then turned around and abused Dawn.Dawn owning up to cheating on her boyfriend was a lesson in honesty and responsibility. But that doesn't justify Kenny's punishment of her. When someone cheats on you, you break up with them. You don't hex them.
He turned her into a freak -three freaks for months. She had to leave university, it completely disrupted her life. What Dawn deserved was Kenny breaking up with her and maybe the spreading the story of her being a cheater. I think Cordelia and Oz handled Xander and Willow's cheating much better than Kenny did. Oz decided to forgive Willow, which shows how much he loves her as well as being a forgiving character, which is wonderful. Cordelia spilled all Xander's secret about his family, which is a much suitable punishment than what Kenny had done.
Xander does descrive Kenny as "a nice guy who snapped" but that doesn't really descrive Kenny. That describes Anya, who stopped Spike from wishing Xander any harm after he got hurt by watching her sleep with Spike. She was wise enough to realize it was punishment enough.
Dawn sinned. She did Kenny wrong. Kenny then turned around and abused Dawn.Dawn owning up to cheating on her boyfriend was a lesson in honesty and responsibility. But that doesn't justify Kenny's punishment of her. When someone cheats on you, you break up with them. You don't hex them.
Feb 27 2010 06:21 pm #237ladycat713
Guest
But look what it took to get her to own up.That seemed to be the point of the spell, it just didn't take into account the Scooby denial factor and the habit of not apologizing. A non Scooby would have aplologizing before there was a chance to get hexed. Unfortunately Dawn learned that behavior from them. With a Scooby you need to apply the equivalent of a 2 by 4 to the head. For instance in the begining of season 7 Willow was still blaming the magic, when Giles came up and said you know it wasn't the magic, I went Yay and hoped it would expounded on.It wasn't.
At least Willow and Xander didn't have sex. Cordelia made a wish (unknowingly but still) that changed the world plus you can say that Oz got back at Willow later with Veruca (unwillingly) after which she then started and stopped a spell and when he left did the my will be done spell .
And I would have preferred that the effects of her betrayal been shown at college, maybe having where the only guys willing to go out with her just wanting sex , no decent guys wanting to be near her because they think she'd cheat. Unfortunately the writers went with this and further isolated yet another character from humanity in the castle and the only way for Dawn to get any consequences to her actions was through a curse. They could've had all the bad consequences happen to Dawn at college, guys only wanting her for sex, being snubbed, her rep being completely ruined and shown all this real world reactions and only have Dawn show up at the castle weary and contrite and tell her sister what happened and when Buffy starts to build up a head of steam thikning that someone was spreading lies , Dawn tell her they weren't lies she cheated on her boyfriend with his roommate and if she could take it back she would.
Think of magic like a gun , if you've got it you are more likely to use it, Willow being a prime example. Not to mention there's culture , in Kenny's culture this is probably the acceptable response to betrayal, heck it could even be a lesser version of the required response to betrayal for all we know the standard reponse to infidelity is to make a person as anatomically correct as Barbie and Ken.
The writers did everything they could to isolate the Scoobies, Slayers and everyone involved from humanity , Dawn's punishment was just another of doing that and quite frankly I think the story would've played better if they'd had her punishment be real world but they wanted to turn her into a giant for what seemed to a Godzilla gag and then went from there.
At least Willow and Xander didn't have sex. Cordelia made a wish (unknowingly but still) that changed the world plus you can say that Oz got back at Willow later with Veruca (unwillingly) after which she then started and stopped a spell and when he left did the my will be done spell .
And I would have preferred that the effects of her betrayal been shown at college, maybe having where the only guys willing to go out with her just wanting sex , no decent guys wanting to be near her because they think she'd cheat. Unfortunately the writers went with this and further isolated yet another character from humanity in the castle and the only way for Dawn to get any consequences to her actions was through a curse. They could've had all the bad consequences happen to Dawn at college, guys only wanting her for sex, being snubbed, her rep being completely ruined and shown all this real world reactions and only have Dawn show up at the castle weary and contrite and tell her sister what happened and when Buffy starts to build up a head of steam thikning that someone was spreading lies , Dawn tell her they weren't lies she cheated on her boyfriend with his roommate and if she could take it back she would.
Think of magic like a gun , if you've got it you are more likely to use it, Willow being a prime example. Not to mention there's culture , in Kenny's culture this is probably the acceptable response to betrayal, heck it could even be a lesser version of the required response to betrayal for all we know the standard reponse to infidelity is to make a person as anatomically correct as Barbie and Ken.
The writers did everything they could to isolate the Scoobies, Slayers and everyone involved from humanity , Dawn's punishment was just another of doing that and quite frankly I think the story would've played better if they'd had her punishment be real world but they wanted to turn her into a giant for what seemed to a Godzilla gag and then went from there.
Feb 27 2010 06:25 pm #238ladycat713
Guest
And the Ken and Barbie thing I meant permanantly not temporarily.
Small description of Centaurs - other descriptions on sites depict them as very aggressive and lustful and not well liked - Bulfinch's Mythology is an established reference source - Interesting that the other creature that Dawn in transformed into was a giant form, another hybrid. There are some very interesting attributes to her transformation form that might show up in the closing phase of Season Eight. While one of the results of turning Dawn made for great fantasy comic book style art, the association of sex, wars, teacher, sacrifice (Chiron agrees to exchange his immortal life for Prometheus, one of the creators of man) and the hero, Heracles kills the eagle that continuously feeds off Prometheus.
Would not these Dawn transformation and their mythic connection with the War of the Titans, Centaurs, teachers, life lessons, sexual lust, love, love of humanity, power, prophecy, honor, revenge, sacrifice, and heroes all make a great metaphor and application to Twangel and Buffy Season Eight -
Centaurs in Greek Mythology
"These monsters were represented as men from the head to the loins, while the rest of the body was that of a horse. The ancients were too fond of a horse to consider the union of his nature with man's as forming a very degraded compound, and accordingly the Centaur is the only one of the fancied monsters of antiquity to which any good traits are assigned. The Centaurs were admitted to the companionship of man, and at the marriage of Pirithous with Hippodamia they were among the guests. At the feast of Eurytion, one of the Centaurs, becoming intoxicated with the wine, attempted to offer violence to the bride; the other Centaurs followed his example, and a dreadful conflict arose in which several of them were slain. This is the celebrated battle of the Lapiths and the Centaurs, a favorite subject with the sculptors and poets of antiquity.
But not all the Centaurs were like the rude guests of Pirithous. Chiron was instructed by Apollo and Artemis, and was renowned for his skill in hunting, medicine, music, and the art of prophecy. The most distinguished heroes of Greek history were his pupils. Among the rest the infant Asklepios was intrusted to his charge by Apollo, his father. When the sage returned to his home bearing the infant, his daughter Ocyroe came forth to meet him, and at sight of the child burst forth into a prophetic strain (for she was a prophetess), foretelling the glory that he was to achieve. Asklepios when grown up became a renowned physician, and even in one instance succeeded in restoring the dead to life. Hades resented this, and Zeus, at his request, struck the bold physician with lightening, and killed him, but after his death received him into the number of the gods. Chiron was the wisest and most just of all the Centaurs, and at his death Zeus placed him among the stars as the constellation Sagittarius."
- from Bulfinch's Mythology
Would not these Dawn transformation and their mythic connection with the War of the Titans, Centaurs, teachers, life lessons, sexual lust, love, love of humanity, power, prophecy, honor, revenge, sacrifice, and heroes all make a great metaphor and application to Twangel and Buffy Season Eight -
Centaurs in Greek Mythology
"These monsters were represented as men from the head to the loins, while the rest of the body was that of a horse. The ancients were too fond of a horse to consider the union of his nature with man's as forming a very degraded compound, and accordingly the Centaur is the only one of the fancied monsters of antiquity to which any good traits are assigned. The Centaurs were admitted to the companionship of man, and at the marriage of Pirithous with Hippodamia they were among the guests. At the feast of Eurytion, one of the Centaurs, becoming intoxicated with the wine, attempted to offer violence to the bride; the other Centaurs followed his example, and a dreadful conflict arose in which several of them were slain. This is the celebrated battle of the Lapiths and the Centaurs, a favorite subject with the sculptors and poets of antiquity.
But not all the Centaurs were like the rude guests of Pirithous. Chiron was instructed by Apollo and Artemis, and was renowned for his skill in hunting, medicine, music, and the art of prophecy. The most distinguished heroes of Greek history were his pupils. Among the rest the infant Asklepios was intrusted to his charge by Apollo, his father. When the sage returned to his home bearing the infant, his daughter Ocyroe came forth to meet him, and at sight of the child burst forth into a prophetic strain (for she was a prophetess), foretelling the glory that he was to achieve. Asklepios when grown up became a renowned physician, and even in one instance succeeded in restoring the dead to life. Hades resented this, and Zeus, at his request, struck the bold physician with lightening, and killed him, but after his death received him into the number of the gods. Chiron was the wisest and most just of all the Centaurs, and at his death Zeus placed him among the stars as the constellation Sagittarius."
- from Bulfinch's Mythology
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 28 2010 06:12 pm #240ladycat713
Guest
Did Dawn turn into 4 things or 3 ,I can't remember, I'm operating on very little sleep because my cat is in heat. If I remember rightly it was Giant )in her own words a big giant ho, a centaur - which attracted a horse that only saw her as a sex object, a fairy, wilthout much sustance- lighter than air and a doll, all surface nothing on the inside. Maybe all the transformations were meant to show what Dawn now appeared to be . But most likely they didn't put that much thought into it other than the Buffyverse sex is bad, let's see how we can make it worse. Plus they probably made her transformation suit whatever story they had like the Godzilla gag.
I still think it would have been a much better idea for Dawn to suffer real world consequences at college instead of supernatural ones.
They've done everything they could this season to isolate the characters from the outside world . Now instead of being the protectors of humanity they're an overpowered army with no clear loyalties, iffy ethics and incredibly dangerous to humanity.
I still think it would have been a much better idea for Dawn to suffer real world consequences at college instead of supernatural ones.
They've done everything they could this season to isolate the characters from the outside world . Now instead of being the protectors of humanity they're an overpowered army with no clear loyalties, iffy ethics and incredibly dangerous to humanity.
Feb 28 2010 07:08 pm #241Spikez_tart
Hmmm - more Greek mythology.
Okay is anyone here really really sick of Dawn - raise your hands if you think she should be turned into a vampire and Xander should cut her head off with the Slayer Scythe.
Okay is anyone here really really sick of Dawn - raise your hands if you think she should be turned into a vampire and Xander should cut her head off with the Slayer Scythe.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Joss has expressed his having wanted to do more with the Dawn character - and maybe she is being put to that use now or she will be in the next season. Her transformation do connect with the season Twilight arc and Buffy, as metaphor and suggestions for has taken place. From Buffy's lust after sex remarks very early in the season and the triad sexual dream, the war between super powers as the wars between the Titians and the change in power structures of the Slayer Army vs humans and Twilight, the Centaur symbolism as both sexual life and desires and teacher, plus there is also the important connection to death and powers from the latest issues.
Who knows how Joss Whedon is going to change his Buffyverse realm, but the Dawn transformation do, IMO, make a connection with what has taken place in this season. I am going by and placing a lot of faith in the things he has stated in his interviews about his fundamental concepts about writing.
Who knows how Joss Whedon is going to change his Buffyverse realm, but the Dawn transformation do, IMO, make a connection with what has taken place in this season. I am going by and placing a lot of faith in the things he has stated in his interviews about his fundamental concepts about writing.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Link for the new Meltzer interview
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/buffy-twilight-brad-meltzer-100301.html
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/buffy-twilight-brad-meltzer-100301.html
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here's another interview by Mr. Brain Trust Scott Allie....just as annoying as always. Check out the last question about what's most important to Angel. According to Allie it's...wait for it. BUFFY! So I guess AtS never happened, cause I don't think Buffy was the most important thing to him for all those yrs. And never mind CONNOR!! His son, the reason he made the deal with WR&H. OMG hasn't this man seen BtVS beyond S3 and AtS in S4 and S5? And look what he says about Buffy.."she has a stong moral compass, that's only undermined by her selfishness" WTF??? And Jeanty says that Angel is 'home' but Spike is "the cabin in the woods" that she has to go to sometimes to feel better and clear her head and get an ego boost. Boy, these two really make Buffy sound awful don't they? And Angel doesn't sound too great either. Cause like nmcil said Angel considers his true love to be his son CONNOR! But according to Allie it's all about Buffy. Lord, Joss really should tell Allie to think before he speaks cause he comes off as an idiot in most interviews and someone who doesn't know either BtVS or AtS.
Here's the link..buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/03/scott-allie-talks-about-man-under.html
Here's the link..buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/03/scott-allie-talks-about-man-under.html
Deep breath Ami, deep breath.
And personally, I think Buffy has never been the most important thing for Angel. Yeah, she's up there, but to me it was always his making amends/being the Power's champion that was most inportant. And if she was, she ceased to be the most important when Darla came around and got pregnant, if not before. Then Connor became the most important thing- Just look at Angel's face when he holds Connor for the first time.
And that home vs cabin arguement...that sounds like the argument that many cheating spouces use; the I-always-come-home-to-you excuse. So, basically he makes Buffy sound like not only the biggest using tramp in the world, but an unfaithful at that. But then again, with the way they've been treating Buffy in the comics, it works. Since her moral compass seems to be broken and all that.
And personally, I think Buffy has never been the most important thing for Angel. Yeah, she's up there, but to me it was always his making amends/being the Power's champion that was most inportant. And if she was, she ceased to be the most important when Darla came around and got pregnant, if not before. Then Connor became the most important thing- Just look at Angel's face when he holds Connor for the first time.
And that home vs cabin arguement...that sounds like the argument that many cheating spouces use; the I-always-come-home-to-you excuse. So, basically he makes Buffy sound like not only the biggest using tramp in the world, but an unfaithful at that. But then again, with the way they've been treating Buffy in the comics, it works. Since her moral compass seems to be broken and all that.
~ Niori ~
Mar 04 2010 02:21 am #246coalitiongirl
Who wants to swear off the comics altogether?
Here's a scene-by-scene description of #33-
HERE
I'm hoping that it's a Cordy/Connor type thing, but I'm DONE. Unless Spike comes back. And he's himself.
Here's a scene-by-scene description of #33-
HERE
I'm hoping that it's a Cordy/Connor type thing, but I'm DONE. Unless Spike comes back. And he's himself.
I read it, and all I can say *gag*
And even though I never really read the comics, I'm offically swearing them off too.
And even though I never really read the comics, I'm offically swearing them off too.
~ Niori ~
Mar 04 2010 03:53 am #248Ami
Guest
I read it earlier and it made me sick. The only thing that makes it better is that Joss is not a happy couples kinda guy and I doubt that this is all there is to it. But still...UGH! And lots of people are speculating that it's gonna be a Buffy pregnancy thing. So Buffy and Spike are DESTINY and they have a glow. Kinda like the "Twilight" sparklypires? OMG! They don't sparkle, they glow! LMAO!
Hope this link works, it's the conversation between Buffy and Angel after she tree-stakes him.
Link..www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php
And the next issue #34 is gonna be called "Them F#$%ing plus the true history of the Universe" Oh lord. And may I ask where does poor Spike fit in? Run Spike Run! far, far away from this mess. Find a nice woman who will love you and only you.
Mar 04 2010 04:22 am #249coalitiongirl
Well, we'll all riled up right now- even the BANGELS are disgusted. This isn't the end, and it was far too cheesy to be taken as anything natural.
I still wouldn't go near the next issue with a ten-foot pole, though.
And because I think we all need to see this again right now...
I still wouldn't go near the next issue with a ten-foot pole, though.
And because I think we all need to see this again right now...
That was me above. I meant Buffy/Angel is Destiny not Buffy/Spike. Sorry.
Go here for the convo between B/A after the tree stakeage. http://www.buffyforums.net/showthread.php?p=448498
go to page 2 post# 28
Go here for the convo between B/A after the tree stakeage. http://www.buffyforums.net/showthread.php?p=448498
go to page 2 post# 28
Well ,Coalitiongirl we needed that. LOL And that is an awesome cover. Too bad it's not a real cover though. Oh man I can't imagine what the next issue is gonna be like. *shudders* ACK just the title makes me sick.
I just got my copy took a quick read - All I can say thus far is that there is going to have to be some serious historical restructuring of the television series to accommodate this change of events as being presented by Twilight. What would this do for the entire history and storyline of the Gypsy curse and the entire premise of Angel created as punishment for Angelus? Angel/Angelus now being rewarded for all the crimes of his past, the thousands of innocent people who have died because of his past life - and this has to be a logical connection, no magical separation of Soul vs No Soul can ever be brought out again. Twilight/Angel/Angelus has clearly brought in Lollipop Sucking Buffy into a direct link with Angel/Angelus as the same entity. The problem being that for Buffy there can no longer be any of her insistence on Soul Angel not being the evil, thing, utterly evil and dark force. Buffy in this issue is now making the choice to believe all the swill that Twilight is pouring. To give us this Buffy, this continuing model of a Lost Little Girl/Lost Young Woman
falling into the arms of her past love - I JUST DON"T GET IT.
The previous issue set up this "We Are Changing" and Twilight encounter well with the Xander pep talk and the theory that Buffy's new powers were coming from the dead slayers - at this point I don't believe Twilight and his info. Satsu makes that remark about sonic boom which makes me think of all the "ripples" that are associated with the Fray time-line and other comments that Willow has made in the series. And why does Buffy make that association of Twilight and her past relationship with a vampire? Was that just a writing trick to setup "the big reveal?"
Buffy really had feelings for Xander right?
"The only thing that makes it better is that Joss is not a happy couples kinda guy and I doubt that this is all there is to it. But still...UGH! And lots of people are speculating that it's gonna be a Buffy pregnancy thing. So Buffy and Spike are DESTINY and they have a glow. Kinda like the "Twilight" sparklypires? OMG! They don't sparkle, they glow! LMAO!"
This is all just too easy and falling to easy into the Twilight plan - and the lines from Twilight "you fundamentally shifted the balance of power in this world Buffy, people die when that happens. Every time. It could never be as simple as you hoped. Not on this plane. But is was a pure act, and it meant you were ready." This is making Twilight into a figure that is working for higher or being manipulated by other powers. And this is totally screwing big-time with the stories being put out by IDW. Twangel is now going to have to be dealt with by that company and their writers. Willingham must be totally pissed right about now.
I am so tired of the whole Buffy-Angel/Angelus love story - if they continue with this, Joss Whedon will have to take back his line about throwing out all his first attempts with Season Eight and that feeling like a soap opera - I believe that is how he described it and going instead for An Epic story. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
As Andrew would say "newsflash" - Buffy-Angel Love Story - soap opera!
Here is something that I have been thinking on lately. And I think this should probably be another thread, but it is connected.
How does all this new Twilight and Buffy-Angel/Angelus effect the Spuffy Hearts and Fans? Of course we don't know what is really going to come out from all this but even if what we end up with is Buffy broken hearted and seriously impaired from her reunion - that she is still so very much in love with Angel/Angelus; it has impact on the Spuffy relationship.
Would this start the beginning of a big fall off from the Spuffy FF fandom? Buffy once again, and as canon still wanting Angel/Angelus - is this like a stake to the heart of Spuffy? How would this effect the writers? If, and I know that nothing too much can be taken from just this one issue, Buffy is still so desperately in love with Angel/Angelus, will the Spuffy writers still have the heart and love to keep going with the theme that Spike is her real partner and equal in love and life?
Spuffy is the way my heart and emotions and intellect want to resolve the powerful story that was presented on television - this "Spuffy" perspective is how my personal history, cultural background and mythic studies lead me. If Joss Whedon finally makes a statement of Buffy and Angel/Angelus as the True Love in his Buffyverse - will this signal a different path for the FF writers and the Spuffy fandom?
I am so completely against the Bangel depicted as a good relationship, that the very serious problems associated with Bangel don't exist or can simply be swept under the rug - that I would have to turn away from The Buffyverse fan base. Canon Bangel post Chosen and AtS would be where I could not follow.
I will start a new thread for this - Please, I hope that we can get a good discussion on this subject -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
ITA with all this nmcil. That's why I think there has to be something more to it .Angel/Buffy is a SOAP OPERA Joss. I hope he gets that. But who knows? And if I was the guy from IDW I'd be pissed beyond the telling of it as our dear Buffy would say. Man. do I miss the show.*is sad*
"And why does Buffy make that association of Twilight and her past relationship with a vampire? Was that just a writing trick to setup "the big reveal?"
Silly me - reading on the other site that is is just a reference to the Twilight novels -
Silly me - reading on the other site that is is just a reference to the Twilight novels -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 04 2010 08:54 pm #255SpaceLord
Guest
I almost laughed my ass off reading 33.....I mean really it's too stupid to take seriously really. Where the fuck do they get these idiot writers and is Joss actually behind this?
I wish that the new Spike comic could be written by Garth Ennis and J. Michael Strazynski (sp?), I would truly love to see that.
I wish that the new Spike comic could be written by Garth Ennis and J. Michael Strazynski (sp?), I would truly love to see that.
How could all this be made to fit and still leave IDW with their hero/champion in good working order? Some ideas that have occurred to me:
Either Angel/Angelus gets some "clean up" treatment,
The Buffyverse TV history is heavily restructured to take Buffy and her surviving army and family into a totally new direction based on the origins of the Slayer. Unless the preview cover, #35 I think, is a fake red herring, it clearly shows a reference to origins on the corner.
This Buffy time-line is being worked on by The Power Player of the Fray time-line and all these events end up being the separation point from the original Slayer creation.
Hate having to wait for the real answers until the next two issues and then through all the JW phase to the concluding issue.
Either Angel/Angelus gets some "clean up" treatment,
The Buffyverse TV history is heavily restructured to take Buffy and her surviving army and family into a totally new direction based on the origins of the Slayer. Unless the preview cover, #35 I think, is a fake red herring, it clearly shows a reference to origins on the corner.
This Buffy time-line is being worked on by The Power Player of the Fray time-line and all these events end up being the separation point from the original Slayer creation.
Hate having to wait for the real answers until the next two issues and then through all the JW phase to the concluding issue.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here's a link for the Buffy/Angel big ol' fight.
scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1667134.html
The art is pretty bad IMO. Buffy looks ugly. Angel looks weird, kinda demony and doesn't really look like him. All I can say is Buffy,push him off the cliff! lol
Andrew cracked me the hell up.
scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1667134.html
The art is pretty bad IMO. Buffy looks ugly. Angel looks weird, kinda demony and doesn't really look like him. All I can say is Buffy,push him off the cliff! lol
Andrew cracked me the hell up.
Mar 05 2010 06:00 am #258coalitiongirl
New thought- Nmcil's post on the "Waning" thread has me wondering if it means there's hope for us. The writers lead us to believe certain things, whether it's the IDW/Dark Horse conflict to throw us off the scent, or it's Scott Allie's abrupt shift from Bander to Bangel. In a way, they're the ones who are leading us off base, and they do it a lot. Maybe they're just dangling the Spike-hate in front of us to throw us off the scent, and Spike's going to be the hero of the story!
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
13. moscowwatcher: In Dark Horse Dispatch sent to retailers immediately post-Twilightgate you wrote that "mature content" in issue #34 doesn't mean nudidy or blood - yet the issue is so intense that Meltzer asked you to put a mature-themes notice. One of your replies in current session implies that Buffy isn't acting on her free will - you say that she is "affected". So, the question: does the "mature content" imply mind-rape or physical rape?
Scott Allie: No spoilers. C'mon, you knew I was gonna cop out on that one, right? There'll be a lot of opportunity to get into this next month.
14. collex: Next Issue is called Them F@#%ing. Do we have to take this literally? Because there this curse and all that... And if yes, what do you have to say to those who think that kissing and doing the deed with Angel after all he has done is turning Buffy into an hideous and irredeemable monster that doesn't care for all those killed?
Scott Allie: Not answering the first question, but as for the second question, Buffy's attitude toward him after he reveals himself—Joss and Brad and I have spent a lot of time talking about this, trying to get this right. We know it's gonna raise questions. I think this arc more than any other would've benefited from being scheduled weekly like a TV show. Sorry, it's a cheap answer, but you gotta wait and see a bit here.
Scott Allie: No spoilers. C'mon, you knew I was gonna cop out on that one, right? There'll be a lot of opportunity to get into this next month.
14. collex: Next Issue is called Them F@#%ing. Do we have to take this literally? Because there this curse and all that... And if yes, what do you have to say to those who think that kissing and doing the deed with Angel after all he has done is turning Buffy into an hideous and irredeemable monster that doesn't care for all those killed?
Scott Allie: Not answering the first question, but as for the second question, Buffy's attitude toward him after he reveals himself—Joss and Brad and I have spent a lot of time talking about this, trying to get this right. We know it's gonna raise questions. I think this arc more than any other would've benefited from being scheduled weekly like a TV show. Sorry, it's a cheap answer, but you gotta wait and see a bit here.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
That goes with his all of a sudden take on Buffy
5. Emmie: Would it be right to say Buffy isn't in her right mind at the end of this issue? Perhaps because of an unnatural glow?
Scott Allie: She's definitely affected by what's happening. That girl ain't never been right, but this Twilight business is certainly complex. More next issue.
WTF does this mean, - is this some kind of answer to all that self-hatred and destructive behavior from her season 6?
I'm glad to see his comments about the long discussions about the coming issues - so it looks like Buffy is actually going to get sexually reunited with Angel/Angelus - and I am wondering if the Faith attack and his "ballsy all in tack and working order" is going to come into play -
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't have this turn into a preggers super child story? Anyway, how the hell would the preggers potential story allow for any re-insertion back into the IDW Angelverse? After Connor, how would Angel/Angelus ever give up his child?
I can't wait to see how this is all going to be twisted and pulled to salvage Twangel with all those deaths and killings he is connected with now - Joss Whedon is totally going to have to do some creative magic hocus-pocus to get me to believe and accept Angel/Angelus back in the role of soul brooding redemption hero model. I hate all the long delays between issues.
5. Emmie: Would it be right to say Buffy isn't in her right mind at the end of this issue? Perhaps because of an unnatural glow?
Scott Allie: She's definitely affected by what's happening. That girl ain't never been right, but this Twilight business is certainly complex. More next issue.
WTF does this mean, - is this some kind of answer to all that self-hatred and destructive behavior from her season 6?
I'm glad to see his comments about the long discussions about the coming issues - so it looks like Buffy is actually going to get sexually reunited with Angel/Angelus - and I am wondering if the Faith attack and his "ballsy all in tack and working order" is going to come into play -
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't have this turn into a preggers super child story? Anyway, how the hell would the preggers potential story allow for any re-insertion back into the IDW Angelverse? After Connor, how would Angel/Angelus ever give up his child?
I can't wait to see how this is all going to be twisted and pulled to salvage Twangel with all those deaths and killings he is connected with now - Joss Whedon is totally going to have to do some creative magic hocus-pocus to get me to believe and accept Angel/Angelus back in the role of soul brooding redemption hero model. I hate all the long delays between issues.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2010 06:24 am #261coalitiongirl
Seeing as they've basically said that the next issue will be rewriting the mythology of the show, I'd say that it's some sort of mystical vampires-and-slayers connection that we'll probably touch on, but will be explained in full next issue.
8. willow333: I have a question regarding Angel and him being Twilight. What about the war he started with Buffy's slayer army in Tibet and him asking Giles, Faith and Andrew who should die first. Are we suppose to assume this was him trying to keep the kill count down? It just seems a bit off to me.
Scott Allie: It does seem off, I know it's a lot to swallow. I hope you feel it all makes sense as they talk through some of it in the next two issues, #35 in particular.
The more I read about all this, the more I just end up frustrated and shaking my head - Maybe I care too much about these character being allowed to do all these horrible things and not have to suffer any consequences - Are any of the moral and ethical questions going to be explored and answered or are we going to end up with another go ahead and stab some one and sacrifice them to save your boyfriend just 'cause you are so in love. Or are we going to have another case of showing people being burned alive from an magical call to a demon to insure that your marriage all works out to happy time instead of actually having the courage and honesty to face your bride to be and say "hey, I can't do this." Guess if Angel/Angelus can be absolved of sending an entire city into a Hell Dimension and then all is set right and he is now the celebrated Hero of the entire city anything can indeed happen.
This had better turn out as one of the bestest cautionary tales ever told - boy how I wish that Joss Whedon had made the decision to turn Twilight into a real total honest BAD ASS villain - the true balance counterpart to Buffy and all this new powers.
Scott Allie: It does seem off, I know it's a lot to swallow. I hope you feel it all makes sense as they talk through some of it in the next two issues, #35 in particular.
The more I read about all this, the more I just end up frustrated and shaking my head - Maybe I care too much about these character being allowed to do all these horrible things and not have to suffer any consequences - Are any of the moral and ethical questions going to be explored and answered or are we going to end up with another go ahead and stab some one and sacrifice them to save your boyfriend just 'cause you are so in love. Or are we going to have another case of showing people being burned alive from an magical call to a demon to insure that your marriage all works out to happy time instead of actually having the courage and honesty to face your bride to be and say "hey, I can't do this." Guess if Angel/Angelus can be absolved of sending an entire city into a Hell Dimension and then all is set right and he is now the celebrated Hero of the entire city anything can indeed happen.
This had better turn out as one of the bestest cautionary tales ever told - boy how I wish that Joss Whedon had made the decision to turn Twilight into a real total honest BAD ASS villain - the true balance counterpart to Buffy and all this new powers.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm sorry but I really think Angel will come out of this with his Halo firmly in place and untarnished. I mean look what happened in his own comics. He sent LA to Hell and he's the BIG HERO once again, and if I'm not mistaken the only one who has a chance at the Shanshu even tho he signed it away. (Not that I want Spike to have the Shanshu, cause I like me my vamp , but still...)This is gonna end up the same exact way, all will be excused, all will be right. And Joss doesn't have the stones to ever make Angel an honest to goodness BAD GUY. Never.
And lord plz, no mystical Twuffy Baby!
And lord plz, no mystical Twuffy Baby!
Mar 05 2010 04:42 pm #264coalitiongirl
21. Kratos: Given that either Buffy is in control and decides to make out with a mass-murdering psychophath possibly followed by f"#&ing (although I do believe it can be "them fighting" him. Or the other option being that Buffy is under some sort of control. Neither outcome being any good, one has her on the same level of a genocidal maniac and the other has a female icon being raped. You have in the past given small pieces of hope for Angel fans(telling them to see it through). Is there any hope for Spike,Buffy,Spuffy fans at the end of the tunnel? Or should we just brace ourselves for a twisted bangel lovefest.
Scott Allie: I can't fully answer that without spoiling, but first I'd have to know what hope means to you. If your hope is that Joss comes out and says that Buffy and Spike are the key relationship, that Spike is more important to Buffy than Angel, then probably you'll be disappointed, because I don't think Joss writes in those terms. If on the other hand all you want is that the relationship between Buffy and Spike gets treated with respect, then yes, there is hope.
*gives up*
him. Or the other option being that Buffy is under some sort of control. Neither outcome being any good, one has her on the same level of a genocidal maniac and the other has a female icon being raped. You have in the past given small pieces of hope for Angel fans(telling them to see it through). Is there any hope for Spike,Buffy,Spuffy fans at the end of the tunnel? Or should we just brace ourselves for a twisted bangel lovefest.Scott Allie: I can't fully answer that without spoiling, but first I'd have to know what hope means to you. If your hope is that Joss comes out and says that Buffy and Spike are the key relationship, that Spike is more important to Buffy than Angel, then probably you'll be disappointed, because I don't think Joss writes in those terms. If on the other hand all you want is that the relationship between Buffy and Spike gets treated with respect, then yes, there is hope.
*gives up*
Mar 05 2010 04:55 pm #265coalitiongirl
32. Sue: Have you and Meltzer watched all of AtS? Watched it all the way through? Will any of the character development for both Spike and Angel that went on in there be reflected in Season 8?
Scott Allie: I'm pretty sure Brad watched all of the Angel series, but I'm not positive. I know he and Joss talked through the story quite a bit, and that the main story beats in here comes from Joss. But I'm pretty sure readers will continue to debate whether or not Joss and his writers are doing right by these characters—which is to say that yes, I think we'll deal with the characters' development, but that readers won't all agree.
'
Someone's avoiding mentioning if he's seen it...
11. striped_lily: Will there be a Spike/Buffy cover in the future? Any details you can share about that?
Scott Allie: We haven't decided on the last few covers, but so far we don't exactly have a Spike/Buffy cover. I swear to the Powers that Be, that is not my fault—Joss is spec'ing all the covers for his arc.
What does that "exactly" mean? That there will be a Spike/Buffy cover, it just won't be them in a romantic pose? Or is Scott Allie just (as always) messing with us? I'm not primarily a comics reader, but in a way, I'm disappointed. Why would they shift focus to all of Buffy's past loves and bringing all of them back in a series that's really had other focuses? There've been complaints in the past that Spuffy kind of took over s7 and left the other Scoobies in the dust, and now it seems like Twuffy and Spike might just do the same to the comics, which had really been doing so well before now. (Not that I'm complaining about Spike )
Scott Allie: I'm pretty sure Brad watched all of the Angel series, but I'm not positive. I know he and Joss talked through the story quite a bit, and that the main story beats in here comes from Joss. But I'm pretty sure readers will continue to debate whether or not Joss and his writers are doing right by these characters—which is to say that yes, I think we'll deal with the characters' development, but that readers won't all agree.
'
Someone's avoiding mentioning if he's seen it...
11. striped_lily: Will there be a Spike/Buffy cover in the future? Any details you can share about that?
Scott Allie: We haven't decided on the last few covers, but so far we don't exactly have a Spike/Buffy cover. I swear to the Powers that Be, that is not my fault—Joss is spec'ing all the covers for his arc.
What does that "exactly" mean? That there will be a Spike/Buffy cover, it just won't be them in a romantic pose? Or is Scott Allie just (as always) messing with us? I'm not primarily a comics reader, but in a way, I'm disappointed. Why would they shift focus to all of Buffy's past loves and bringing all of them back in a series that's really had other focuses? There've been complaints in the past that Spuffy kind of took over s7 and left the other Scoobies in the dust, and now it seems like Twuffy and Spike might just do the same to the comics, which had really been doing so well before now. (Not that I'm complaining about Spike
)That whole stomach feeling thing, while connecting back to the early TV series, to me it seems so like the touch of a magical birth -
Is Joss Whedon really going to take this into something like "The Guardian Royal Couple" and establish a new bloodline for Slayer essence - or with this be the start of the separation of Slayers that leads to the Fray Timeline.
In the panel where Faith attacks Twangel, after looking at it again from a post at another site, it seems that Twangel is like two entities - one confused about Faith and one that is playing out the Twilight persona. Even if Scott Allie and this issue say that Angel is not separated from Angelus, going from SA other comments - it does not necessarily mean that another entity is not also present. Someone of something from the future Fray time-line or another dimension could have invaded Angel/Angelus.
I don't want to make rash and early judgments about this Twilight arc, but I really dislike the potential treatment that Twilight is Angel/Angelus being control or manipulated by other powerful outside forces. I guess that why the TV series had so much more power and appeal to me, they could have really dedicated a long arc focused on these new powers and changes but also given a great historical background for them. With the comic format, it will all have to be squeezed into a few issues.
All these interviews are nothing but teasers and entrapments for the readers - there is so little real or useful information for the public resulting from them.
I need to go do something useful like start a new painting -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
LOL maryperk.
Anyways here's the latest Scott Allie Q&A. . Go to post #2 to question #15 by Imblack21 , who apparently has to be reassured constantly about the specialness of the Bangel twu luv. Allie's answer says it all. Joss is not mocking or subverting Bangel in any way. I guess that's all we need to know IMO.
And also this..the answer to question #21 by Kratos...
Scott Allie: "If your hope is that Joss comes out and says that Buffy and Spike are the key relationship, that Spike is more important to Buffy than Angel, then probably you'll be disappointed, because I don't think Joss writes in those terms. If on the other hand all you want is that the relationship between Buffy and Spike gets treated with respect, then yes, there is hope." Well guys I think that what we're gonna get is "they have a wonderful friendship but that's all it was" Obviously ,at least to me, the end is Bangel 4eva! That's what it looks like is gonna happen,for now. There's still 7 more issues to go.
And man, are there alot of Bangels on that forum. It seems the Bangels get reassurance about their ship all the time. And there's always more than one person asking about Bangel and their true love being validated, and really not many Spuffy questions from what I've see. And we sure as hell don't get any reassurance about our ship.Oh well.
LINKY...www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php
Anyways here's the latest Scott Allie Q&A. . Go to post #2 to question #15 by Imblack21 , who apparently has to be reassured constantly about the specialness of the Bangel twu luv. Allie's answer says it all. Joss is not mocking or subverting Bangel in any way. I guess that's all we need to know IMO.
And also this..the answer to question #21 by Kratos...
Scott Allie: "If your hope is that Joss comes out and says that Buffy and Spike are the key relationship, that Spike is more important to Buffy than Angel, then probably you'll be disappointed, because I don't think Joss writes in those terms. If on the other hand all you want is that the relationship between Buffy and Spike gets treated with respect, then yes, there is hope." Well guys I think that what we're gonna get is "they have a wonderful friendship but that's all it was" Obviously ,at least to me, the end is Bangel 4eva! That's what it looks like is gonna happen,for now. There's still 7 more issues to go.
And man, are there alot of Bangels on that forum. It seems the Bangels get reassurance about their ship all the time. And there's always more than one person asking about Bangel and their true love being validated, and really not many Spuffy questions from what I've see. And we sure as hell don't get any reassurance about our ship.Oh well.
LINKY...www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php
Yeah, but on every Q&A, you always see at least one person (usually more) ask something along the lines of where the hell is Spike. lol. Now that should be a very large clue to the writers about what the fans want from the comics. I wonder if it irritates the ones who are so pro Bangel when people constantly ask about Spike. I also would love to know how they feel when the questions are worded like
'Given that either Buffy is in control and decides to make out with a mass-murdering psychophath possibly followed by f"#&ing (although I do believe it can be "them fighting" him. Or the other option being that Buffy is under some sort of control. Neither outcome being any good, one has her on the same level of a genocidal maniac and the other has a female icon being raped.', (which to me is a way of saying your comic is terrible on so many levels). I mean, how many people out there are acutually really enjoying the comics and thinking they're doing such a great job with it? I have yet to meet one.
'Given that either Buffy is in control and decides to make out with a mass-murdering psychophath possibly followed by f"#&ing (although I do believe it can be "them fighting"
him. Or the other option being that Buffy is under some sort of control. Neither outcome being any good, one has her on the same level of a genocidal maniac and the other has a female icon being raped.', (which to me is a way of saying your comic is terrible on so many levels). I mean, how many people out there are acutually really enjoying the comics and thinking they're doing such a great job with it? I have yet to meet one. ~ Niori ~
Mar 05 2010 10:56 pm #270coalitiongirl
Just because the Bangel relationship isn't being subverted, it doesn't mean that they're still in their right minds, right?
Oh ITA Coalitiongirl. That question was awesome Niori and to me it is someone saying the comics are terrible, but his answer is what got me annoyed. But then, again he always says stuff like that. Nothing new there.
25. bamph: Have Buffy's and Angel's feelings for each other all been manipulation going back to the start of the show?That's the impression be given to some I've talked to after reading the issue. That this issue is hinting that the Buffy/Angel romance isn't really real and never has been. That they were manipulated into falling in love all those years ago by some unknown force when Angel first saw her in the Becoming flashback and when finally meeting in season 1 and what is happening now with this secret history between slayers and vampires and the unholy power the two have gotten is the end game to all this manipulation. Is that the view we're supposed to come away with after the new issue or is that the wrong thinking about the Buffy/Angel romance?
Scott Allie: I think this sort of thing is personal for the reader. What do you believe about love, about fate, about destiny? You will never get a scene where one of the characters says to the other, I guess we never really had feelings for each other, it was all just some unholy power. In my opinion, there can be fate, and you can be chosen, and still have to earn it. But ultimately my answer to your question is no, no one is telling you that. That is not the impression you're meant to walk away with.
Boy that first sentence of his makes me scared about what might be coming down with this whole thing - Was I totally missing and totally wrong about what was being shown on the TV screen? I sort of thought one of the big themes was the individual characters making their own choices - Fuck Destiny, people have control over their own lives - either to totally screw it up or try to do the best they can - to try to crawl out of whatever hell hole some of us get born into or life wants to jam down our throats. You want to know when your life get totally down and fucked over? When some Power That Be or Ass thinks they have the right or duty to impose their will on you. What a crock this guy is giving out - this has to be all tied into the justification of bringing Buffy and Angel/Angelus back together and then being able to return Angel/Angelus to IDW still in nice clean hero order.
Scott Allie: I think this sort of thing is personal for the reader. What do you believe about love, about fate, about destiny? You will never get a scene where one of the characters says to the other, I guess we never really had feelings for each other, it was all just some unholy power. In my opinion, there can be fate, and you can be chosen, and still have to earn it. But ultimately my answer to your question is no, no one is telling you that. That is not the impression you're meant to walk away with.
Boy that first sentence of his makes me scared about what might be coming down with this whole thing - Was I totally missing and totally wrong about what was being shown on the TV screen? I sort of thought one of the big themes was the individual characters making their own choices - Fuck Destiny, people have control over their own lives - either to totally screw it up or try to do the best they can - to try to crawl out of whatever hell hole some of us get born into or life wants to jam down our throats. You want to know when your life get totally down and fucked over? When some Power That Be or Ass thinks they have the right or duty to impose their will on you. What a crock this guy is giving out - this has to be all tied into the justification of bringing Buffy and Angel/Angelus back together and then being able to return Angel/Angelus to IDW still in nice clean hero order.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Scott Allie's answers really annoy me. Always. And he is spouting total BS. Only the die hard Bangels are buying that crap.Destiny, what crap.Own you life,own your mistakes, own your love. Don't give me this DESTINY Bullshit. Of course Angel will walk out the hero,did you ever doubt it? I can just imagine if Spike were Twilight...everyone would be screaming.. "We told you he's nothing but evil!!" And the glow juice or whatever the hell it is would be Spike raping Buffy. UGH! Hypocrites.
Mar 07 2010 03:07 am #274Spikez_tart
how many people out there are acutually really enjoying the comics and thinking they're doing such a great job with it? - no, no one enjoys it but it's like a nasty car accident - you just have to look. Some of the early comics were a lot of fun - like Viva Las Buffy.
Destiny/ Have Buffy and Angel's feelings been manipulation - it isn't the first time Joss has pulled this stunt. He runs the show for six seasons then whoops we find out in Normal Again that the last six years have been Buffy's hallucinations. What a rip. As for people in the Bverse running their own lives - not so much. They're constantly having their brains wiped or falling into the power of some evil being or other. When Spike goes to the demon cave to get his soul, he looks at a bunch of cave drawings. Those drawings are a history (or prediction) of everything that's happening in Sunnydale. There's a picture of Warren shooting Buffy and another of Warren with his mouth sewed shut (which hasn't happened yet.) So is the demon running things? It looks that way.
Some of the early comics were a lot of fun - like Viva Las Buffy. Destiny/ Have Buffy and Angel's feelings been manipulation - it isn't the first time Joss has pulled this stunt. He runs the show for six seasons then whoops we find out in Normal Again that the last six years have been Buffy's hallucinations. What a rip. As for people in the Bverse running their own lives - not so much. They're constantly having their brains wiped or falling into the power of some evil being or other. When Spike goes to the demon cave to get his soul, he looks at a bunch of cave drawings. Those drawings are a history (or prediction) of everything that's happening in Sunnydale. There's a picture of Warren shooting Buffy and another of Warren with his mouth sewed shut (which hasn't happened yet.) So is the demon running things? It looks that way.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 07 2010 03:42 am #275coalitiongirl
Some more of the Scott Allie crap Q&A:
43. Nixennacht: You said, you didn't quite understand where the idea that this new magically assisted form of B/A is subversive comes from. More than one thing in that scene points at Twilight (the vampire soap), the star crossed 'destined connection' for one thing and also the dominating patronizing lover, who explains the world to his girl, admittedly manipulated her into this position and, if his previous lines and the cover of the collected vollume are anything to go by, wants to drive her into suicide. And also like in Twilight, the heroine takes this and falls into her lovers arms.
Now it's no secret that Twilight is a romance that is seen as a sad regression into long overcome genderstereotypes by many. Practically the Anti-Buffy in terms of feminsm. So it would seem weird to many that Joss would suddenly put his heroine in such a subdued position without something up his sleeve.
So my question would be, is this zombiefyed state Buffy seems to be in really to be seen as something positive, or rather as something extremely dangerous that she'll have to overcome to prevail?
Scott Allie: I totally see how this is subversive, I just disagreed with the idea of "mocking," I think. There's nothing mocking in the way Joss is portraying this. But subversive, sure. We're subverting certain accepted truths, and we're changing certain things about their relationship. And I don't think Buffy has become Bella. Again, let's see where it goes in a couple issue. Next issue is not gonna please you, though, Nixennacht.
45. Kratos: Following up on my previous question and your answer, I agree, I also don't believe that Joss writes in those terms. And I also see treating the spuffy relationship with respect as hope. I guess my question is, can we expect the opposite? That we'll have it spelled out that Bangel >>>>>>> Spuffy, Bander,etc. The end result being that Bangel is seen as the key relationship and that Angel is more important to Buffy then Spike or Xander. If that is the endgame then yeah I can live without the comics, to me the outcome is just as important as the journey.
PS:Like Maggie said, we really do appreciate you doing these Q&A's.
Thanks.
Scott Allie: Thanks for asking it like that, that hadn't occurred to me—No, I don't think you'll see either relationship spelled out as the one. To the B/S fans out there, who might be feeling invalidated by what's going on between Buffy and Angel right now, note that the B/A fans feel like they're being mocked. So while the B/S fans aren't getting to see B/S talking about destiny and all that, it ain't all roses or the B/A fans. And while I'm at it, because I think Kratos is the guy I pissed off last time—I'm sorry that I don't fully understand certain parts of fandom, and least of all the shippers and all that. Last month I think I equated shipping and fanfic. I wasn't trying to make fun—my only exposure to shippers is on message boards, I don't know that much about what this is. So when you said that you "shipped" Spike Fray, yeah, my Spray comment was flip, but I assumed that if you "ship" a relationship that doesn't actually exist in the canonical stories, then the only thing you could do was write fanfic about it. I get now that I was wrong about that—but I'm an outsider. I don't know shipping, or fanfic, or any of it, aside from what I'm exposed to on these Q&As. So I apologize.
51. vampmaster: Faith was meant to be "the" traditional slayer of this generation as the line passed on to her through Kendra who was activated after Buffy's death in Prophecy Girl. Am I correct in assuming Buffy was made the slayer of this generation again by the resurrection spell in "Bargaining" which specially states "Here lies the warrior of the people" implying they are rising the slayer and not just Buffy. Or is Faith still the technical slayer ignoring the chosen spell and Buffy was chosen to have all the new nifty powers for a different reason?
Basically what I am asking: Was Buffy chosen to be the one to receive the new nifty powers due to her current position in the Slayer line, or due to one of her own personal actions?
Scott Allie: Lot of stuff in there—but you know by now, I think, that Joss doesn't approach this in quite these terms, right? Who is "technically" the Slayer? Things have gone a little weird in Buffy's time, compared to all previous Slayers. The ways in which things have evolved has made Buffy unique. What she's done, what's been done to her, who she is—all of these things make her a unique Slayer, uniquely significant.
54. lostsoul: Some fans around the internet are thinking that Buffy may get pregnant. Can you please put my worries to rest that she will not?
Scott Allie: What, you mean ever?
61. maje77: I’m a little confused with some of your answers to a few questions regarding Joss subverting Buffy and Angel’s relationship. In the beginning of the Q&A you stated it’s not the intention of the story to mock and subvert the Buffy/Angel relationship, yet in your response to Nixennacht, you state there is an intention to be subversive. So the Buffy and Angel relationship, aspects of their shared story, is intended to be undermined?
Scott Allie: The relationship is evolving, as relationships tend to. Mock is certainly not an accurate description of what's going on. Subvert isn't exactly right either, but it didn't seem as wrong as mock. But you're right,subversion is not really what I see Joss doing to the relationship. Evolve. I think I can stick by that. But we're carrying on a discussion of the comic so far beyond the book itself, analyzing words used in a message-board Q&A, that I think it stands to ruin the story. The book should tell you everything you need to know about the characters and their relationships. I've really enjoyed doing the Q&A's, but based on how many times I've been asked the same question this time, about the Buffy/Angel relationship, or what it says about the Spike/Buffy relationship—and knowing what happens in the forthcoming issues—I'd like to end the Q&A's now. I want to thank you guys for your passion for this material, your commitment to the characters, and your insight. Thanks to Emmie for running the Q&A's, and giving me the chance to address you all directly. I hope you like what happens over the next seven issues. Please keep writing in to the lettercol, and anything we can't run before #40 will hopefully find its way into Season 9. I realize we're wayyyyy behind on the letters now, and we're talking about how to accelerate it without denying people a chance to have their say. But ultimately the message boards is the place for you to have your say, and it's a kind of an invasion for someone like me to linger here. Thanks again, and enjoy the big climax.
43. Nixennacht: You said, you didn't quite understand where the idea that this new magically assisted form of B/A is subversive comes from. More than one thing in that scene points at Twilight (the vampire soap), the star crossed 'destined connection' for one thing and also the dominating patronizing lover, who explains the world to his girl, admittedly manipulated her into this position and, if his previous lines and the cover of the collected vollume are anything to go by, wants to drive her into suicide. And also like in Twilight, the heroine takes this and falls into her lovers arms.
Now it's no secret that Twilight is a romance that is seen as a sad regression into long overcome genderstereotypes by many. Practically the Anti-Buffy in terms of feminsm. So it would seem weird to many that Joss would suddenly put his heroine in such a subdued position without something up his sleeve.
So my question would be, is this zombiefyed state Buffy seems to be in really to be seen as something positive, or rather as something extremely dangerous that she'll have to overcome to prevail?
Scott Allie: I totally see how this is subversive, I just disagreed with the idea of "mocking," I think. There's nothing mocking in the way Joss is portraying this. But subversive, sure. We're subverting certain accepted truths, and we're changing certain things about their relationship. And I don't think Buffy has become Bella. Again, let's see where it goes in a couple issue. Next issue is not gonna please you, though, Nixennacht.
45. Kratos: Following up on my previous question and your answer, I agree, I also don't believe that Joss writes in those terms. And I also see treating the spuffy relationship with respect as hope. I guess my question is, can we expect the opposite? That we'll have it spelled out that Bangel >>>>>>> Spuffy, Bander,etc. The end result being that Bangel is seen as the key relationship and that Angel is more important to Buffy then Spike or Xander. If that is the endgame then yeah I can live without the comics, to me the outcome is just as important as the journey.
PS:Like Maggie said, we really do appreciate you doing these Q&A's.
Thanks.
Scott Allie: Thanks for asking it like that, that hadn't occurred to me—No, I don't think you'll see either relationship spelled out as the one. To the B/S fans out there, who might be feeling invalidated by what's going on between Buffy and Angel right now, note that the B/A fans feel like they're being mocked. So while the B/S fans aren't getting to see B/S talking about destiny and all that, it ain't all roses or the B/A fans. And while I'm at it, because I think Kratos is the guy I pissed off last time—I'm sorry that I don't fully understand certain parts of fandom, and least of all the shippers and all that. Last month I think I equated shipping and fanfic. I wasn't trying to make fun—my only exposure to shippers is on message boards, I don't know that much about what this is. So when you said that you "shipped" Spike Fray, yeah, my Spray comment was flip, but I assumed that if you "ship" a relationship that doesn't actually exist in the canonical stories, then the only thing you could do was write fanfic about it. I get now that I was wrong about that—but I'm an outsider. I don't know shipping, or fanfic, or any of it, aside from what I'm exposed to on these Q&As. So I apologize.
51. vampmaster: Faith was meant to be "the" traditional slayer of this generation as the line passed on to her through Kendra who was activated after Buffy's death in Prophecy Girl. Am I correct in assuming Buffy was made the slayer of this generation again by the resurrection spell in "Bargaining" which specially states "Here lies the warrior of the people" implying they are rising the slayer and not just Buffy. Or is Faith still the technical slayer ignoring the chosen spell and Buffy was chosen to have all the new nifty powers for a different reason?
Basically what I am asking: Was Buffy chosen to be the one to receive the new nifty powers due to her current position in the Slayer line, or due to one of her own personal actions?
Scott Allie: Lot of stuff in there—but you know by now, I think, that Joss doesn't approach this in quite these terms, right? Who is "technically" the Slayer? Things have gone a little weird in Buffy's time, compared to all previous Slayers. The ways in which things have evolved has made Buffy unique. What she's done, what's been done to her, who she is—all of these things make her a unique Slayer, uniquely significant.
54. lostsoul: Some fans around the internet are thinking that Buffy may get pregnant. Can you please put my worries to rest that she will not?
Scott Allie: What, you mean ever?
61. maje77: I’m a little confused with some of your answers to a few questions regarding Joss subverting Buffy and Angel’s relationship. In the beginning of the Q&A you stated it’s not the intention of the story to mock and subvert the Buffy/Angel relationship, yet in your response to Nixennacht, you state there is an intention to be subversive. So the Buffy and Angel relationship, aspects of their shared story, is intended to be undermined?
Scott Allie: The relationship is evolving, as relationships tend to. Mock is certainly not an accurate description of what's going on. Subvert isn't exactly right either, but it didn't seem as wrong as mock. But you're right,subversion is not really what I see Joss doing to the relationship. Evolve. I think I can stick by that. But we're carrying on a discussion of the comic so far beyond the book itself, analyzing words used in a message-board Q&A, that I think it stands to ruin the story. The book should tell you everything you need to know about the characters and their relationships. I've really enjoyed doing the Q&A's, but based on how many times I've been asked the same question this time, about the Buffy/Angel relationship, or what it says about the Spike/Buffy relationship—and knowing what happens in the forthcoming issues—I'd like to end the Q&A's now. I want to thank you guys for your passion for this material, your commitment to the characters, and your insight. Thanks to Emmie for running the Q&A's, and giving me the chance to address you all directly. I hope you like what happens over the next seven issues. Please keep writing in to the lettercol, and anything we can't run before #40 will hopefully find its way into Season 9. I realize we're wayyyyy behind on the letters now, and we're talking about how to accelerate it without denying people a chance to have their say. But ultimately the message boards is the place for you to have your say, and it's a kind of an invasion for someone like me to linger here. Thanks again, and enjoy the big climax.
Mar 07 2010 04:39 am #276ladycat713
Guest
This guys answers make me think he's going into politics, there's a lot of words but they make no sense.
I actually suggested Buffy having some kind of side effect from Angel's curse as a way of exonerating her because quite frankly she's too far gone for anything that makes sense to work to redeem thier titular character and it looks like they've come up with something even more out there than my suggestion. And I thought I was pushing it with that.
But I guess I shouldn't be surprised , when Dawn turned in a centaur I made a sarcastic remark about her going into heat and giving birth to a glowing green foal. Someone responded by asking if I'd seen the latest and then informed me that reports had it where a horse got interested in Dawn and Willow and Xander had to do some cock blocking.
And the big climax mentioned above is one I don't think I want to be a part of, I'd feel dirty afterwards and I would not enjoy myself
I actually suggested Buffy having some kind of side effect from Angel's curse as a way of exonerating her because quite frankly she's too far gone for anything that makes sense to work to redeem thier titular character and it looks like they've come up with something even more out there than my suggestion. And I thought I was pushing it with that.
But I guess I shouldn't be surprised , when Dawn turned in a centaur I made a sarcastic remark about her going into heat and giving birth to a glowing green foal. Someone responded by asking if I'd seen the latest and then informed me that reports had it where a horse got interested in Dawn and Willow and Xander had to do some cock blocking.
And the big climax mentioned above is one I don't think I want to be a part of, I'd feel dirty afterwards and I would not enjoy myself
"The book should tell you everything you need to know about the characters and their relationships. I've really enjoyed doing the Q&A's, but based on how many times I've been asked the same question this time, about the Buffy/Angel relationship, or what it says about the Spike/Buffy relationship—and knowing what happens in the forthcoming issues—I'd like to end the Q&A's now. I want to thank you guys for your passion for this material, your commitment to the characters, and your insight"
Sounds like Scott Allie doing the big skedaddle - the next issue must be a real dozy.
Is it possible that the heads of DarkHorse and the writers don't get that people would be angry with this War scenario and their hero model that has been engaged in the killing all this time against the slayers and other people. Don't they get that this country is in two wars right now and has been for several years now - that people are dying every single day. We just had one of the young men in our city came home in a coffin last couple of weeks and thousands of people have died from the Middle East wars because the Power Elites and all the suffering and passions are driving people to kill each other because the all have their Personal Truths and Agendas. Off course a great many of the readers are upset that Buffy and Twangel are going are seemingly going to have their Big Happy Love Dance while all those slayers and other people have been killed -
The Buffyverse has always reflected the real world, that is what made it so compelling and why the viewers were so devoted, and still are devoted to the series. If they come up with some lame ass justification resolution treatment - they are going to lose a lot of readers.
Sounds like Scott Allie doing the big skedaddle - the next issue must be a real dozy.
Is it possible that the heads of DarkHorse and the writers don't get that people would be angry with this War scenario and their hero model that has been engaged in the killing all this time against the slayers and other people. Don't they get that this country is in two wars right now and has been for several years now - that people are dying every single day. We just had one of the young men in our city came home in a coffin last couple of weeks and thousands of people have died from the Middle East wars because the Power Elites and all the suffering and passions are driving people to kill each other because the all have their Personal Truths and Agendas. Off course a great many of the readers are upset that Buffy and Twangel are going are seemingly going to have their Big Happy Love Dance while all those slayers and other people have been killed -
The Buffyverse has always reflected the real world, that is what made it so compelling and why the viewers were so devoted, and still are devoted to the series. If they come up with some lame ass justification resolution treatment - they are going to lose a lot of readers.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2010 01:38 pm #278CM
Guest
"I wish that the new Spike comic could be written by Garth Ennis and J. Michael Strazynski (sp?), I would truly love to see that."
I'd wish for SOOO many things to be written by J.M. Straczynski!! That guy rocks my socks with his prose. The way he puts things in the B5 DVD segments is just awesome. John and Delenn were an amazing TV couple, and the interplay between Londo and G'Kar was just brilliant. One of my dreams is to attend one of his writing seminars at Comic Con.
The comic format provides so little answers at a time that I've really been waiting for the whole thing to wrap up before drawing conclusions. You can't really figure out anything until there's a whole arc to look back on. Honestly, Joss has never been brave enough to pick one pairing and one pairing only and I don't expect that to change. Unless he comes out and says "so-and-so are now together forever, the end", I'm not going to take anything as definite. Angel and Spike should stay far away from the season 8 'verse..............it's already a disaster of crack!fic proportions.
I'd wish for SOOO many things to be written by J.M. Straczynski!! That guy rocks my socks with his prose. The way he puts things in the B5 DVD segments is just awesome. John and Delenn were an amazing TV couple, and the interplay between Londo and G'Kar was just brilliant. One of my dreams is to attend one of his writing seminars at Comic Con.
The comic format provides so little answers at a time that I've really been waiting for the whole thing to wrap up before drawing conclusions. You can't really figure out anything until there's a whole arc to look back on. Honestly, Joss has never been brave enough to pick one pairing and one pairing only and I don't expect that to change. Unless he comes out and says "so-and-so are now together forever, the end", I'm not going to take anything as definite. Angel and Spike should stay far away from the season 8 'verse..............it's already a disaster of crack!fic proportions.
Mar 07 2010 06:09 pm #279coalitiongirl
Finally read the rest of the comic...
1. Am I the only one who thinks "Them F#$%ing plus the true history of the Universe" is both crass and crude and has no business being the TITLE of a comic? Now I'm hoping that it means it ironically, because why else would they pick a title like that?
2. Liked that Buffy said "you don't know me like you used to." It gave me hope, at least, and acknowledged something that the writers haven't until now.
3. The actual Twilight reveal was pretty impressive. If I hadn't known beforehand, I would have been stunned.
4. Faith's run at Angel and the kicking-him-in-the-nuts...so he's invulnerable there? What exactly does that mean? How can that get in the way of the Bangel?
5. Willow's expression at the end=perfect. And is mine. And all of ours.
6. And the Twilight dig would have been nice if Buffy wasn't becoming Bella about now.
1. Am I the only one who thinks "Them F#$%ing plus the true history of the Universe" is both crass and crude and has no business being the TITLE of a comic? Now I'm hoping that it means it ironically, because why else would they pick a title like that?
2. Liked that Buffy said "you don't know me like you used to." It gave me hope, at least, and acknowledged something that the writers haven't until now.
3. The actual Twilight reveal was pretty impressive. If I hadn't known beforehand, I would have been stunned.
4. Faith's run at Angel and the kicking-him-in-the-nuts...so he's invulnerable there? What exactly does that mean?
How can that get in the way of the Bangel? 5. Willow's expression at the end=perfect. And is mine. And all of ours.
6. And the Twilight dig would have been nice if Buffy wasn't becoming Bella about now.
Mar 07 2010 07:28 pm #280Ami
Guest
That title is totally tacky and crude. Wonder who thought it up and if they thought it was cute? Angel has a God! penis now so he can F$%# Buffy for 3 straight issues. Remember when Joss said that it would be PRon for 3 issues straight and that Spike would come in for 2 of them? Everyone thought it was a joke, but I guess it was true.
Agree on all your points. And who would have thunk that Buffy would turn into Bella? The biggest piece of crap book I've ever read. ( I admit it, my goddaughter convinced me to read the first one.:shudder: Couldn't get thru the second one tho. lol) I just hope that Spike isn't glowing when he comes in. Please God, anything but that, and no mystical, crappy pre destined evil baby that will change the world either. Now I'm really afraid. ;p
Agree on all your points. And who would have thunk that Buffy would turn into Bella? The biggest piece of crap book I've ever read. ( I admit it, my goddaughter convinced me to read the first one.:shudder: Couldn't get thru the second one tho. lol) I just hope that Spike isn't glowing when he comes in. Please God, anything but that, and no mystical, crappy pre destined evil baby that will change the world either. Now I'm really afraid. ;p
Been thinking about how this is going to be turned away from all the speculation that Scott Allie and Jeanty share a large responsibility for with their Q&A answers and their interviews. Going back to the latest issue that Joss Whedon actually wrote:
Xander: It does because even if you felt something before, once you saw us together you should know the decent thing to do would be to keep it to yourself.
Buffy: That is the most---Oh. Yeah. (bows her head in shame)
The theme of Buffy needs emotional healing and character development toward a stronger and more mature woman is what always I come back to in the comics book season. Apparently Joss Whedon stated that this is a conversation that he has wanted to do for a long time - I still am holding out hope that this will eventually become a learning lesson for Buffy. You can't always have everything you want in life - that is just simply how it is.
Buffy's first encounter with any green energy is when she is picked up and then cast away by what looks like Black Kali of the goddess (the destroyer to resurrect a new life and changed life form in the most crude breakdown of this symbol). Buffy is clearly shown in the black zapped form that shows the death of slayers and characters. The ancient Bon myths and faith has a strong tradition of magical healing powers through their shamanic healers and symbols. These goddess are earth driven - and I am wondering is if Buffy's powers are more connected to her encounter with the goddess than is being hinted at thus far.
Xander: It does because even if you felt something before, once you saw us together you should know the decent thing to do would be to keep it to yourself.
Buffy: That is the most---Oh. Yeah. (bows her head in shame)
The theme of Buffy needs emotional healing and character development toward a stronger and more mature woman is what always I come back to in the comics book season. Apparently Joss Whedon stated that this is a conversation that he has wanted to do for a long time - I still am holding out hope that this will eventually become a learning lesson for Buffy. You can't always have everything you want in life - that is just simply how it is.
Buffy's first encounter with any green energy is when she is picked up and then cast away by what looks like Black Kali of the goddess (the destroyer to resurrect a new life and changed life form in the most crude breakdown of this symbol). Buffy is clearly shown in the black zapped form that shows the death of slayers and characters. The ancient Bon myths and faith has a strong tradition of magical healing powers through their shamanic healers and symbols. These goddess are earth driven - and I am wondering is if Buffy's powers are more connected to her encounter with the goddess than is being hinted at thus far.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
2. Liked that Buffy said "you don't know me like you used to." It gave me hope, at least, and acknowledged something that the writers haven't until now.
I liked it, too. Actually, the whole issue was wonderful. I loved the Buffy/Angel scene until the whole glowing part. But before, when Buffy was too shocked and hurt, acting before asking questions, trying to kill Angel. Punching him over and over. Poor girl, I really felt her pain.
Other things I loved in the issue, the Buffy/Xander scene, always enjoy these two together, and the fact that Xander is right again, telling Buffy that her power came from somewhere else and not as Willow said. I also love the Willow/Amy namecalling, hee. Dawn suspecting that the general and Warren aren't on their side, and Xander listening to her concerns this time. Faith attacking Angel, Giles' realization that it's Angel.
I really can't wait to see the whole gang's reaction when they know that Twilight is Angel. Willow's angry frown when she said that Buffy must be F-ing Twilight will get deeper and angrier once she knows that Twilight is Angel.
I liked it, too. Actually, the whole issue was wonderful. I loved the Buffy/Angel scene until the whole glowing part. But before, when Buffy was too shocked and hurt, acting before asking questions, trying to kill Angel. Punching him over and over. Poor girl, I really felt her pain.
Other things I loved in the issue, the Buffy/Xander scene, always enjoy these two together, and the fact that Xander is right again, telling Buffy that her power came from somewhere else and not as Willow said. I also love the Willow/Amy namecalling, hee. Dawn suspecting that the general and Warren aren't on their side, and Xander listening to her concerns this time. Faith attacking Angel, Giles' realization that it's Angel.
I really can't wait to see the whole gang's reaction when they know that Twilight is Angel. Willow's angry frown when she said that Buffy must be F-ing Twilight will get deeper and angrier once she knows that Twilight is Angel.
Mar 08 2010 05:50 pm #283coalitiongirl
I liked it, too. Actually, the whole issue was wonderful. I loved the Buffy/Angel scene until the whole glowing part. But before, when Buffy was too shocked and hurt, acting before asking questions, trying to kill Angel. Punching him over and over. Poor girl, I really felt her pain.
Count on Sosa Lola to back the comics! Lol, we all kind of forgot about the rest of the comic what with the last few pages...but yeah, the first half really was a lot of fun. I just wish it had gone differently after that... Oh, and something else I forgot- Angel's expression when he reveals himself was beautifully done, right down to that sneer. Toeing the line of Angelus, but not crossing it... 
Count on Sosa Lola to back the comics!
Lol, we all kind of forgot about the rest of the comic what with the last few pages...but yeah, the first half really was a lot of fun. I just wish it had gone differently after that... Oh, and something else I forgot- Angel's expression when he reveals himself was beautifully done, right down to that sneer. Toeing the line of Angelus, but not crossing it... 
I'm probably the only pro-S8 fan here, ain't I unique? But, hey, just because I love this season as a whole, it doesn't mean I like everything about it. That glowing Bangel bit was so cheasy.
But, hey, just because I love this season as a whole, it doesn't mean I like everything about it. That glowing Bangel bit was so cheasy.What does anyone think about the premise that Twangel has to be from the future? Working from the assumption that Twangel will end up not being the bad guy once again, the reason that he claims that he could only try to "lower the body count" is that as a time traveler, this history has already happened and cannot be changed. This Twangel scenario would give some rationale to his justification "Big Picture" perspective. I personally hate the future Angel/Angelus or Shanshued Angel/Angelus but it would help to start and connect this time-line and the scythe spell with the Fray time-line and that future world.
I have for a while that Buffy and Fray are connected - that the uber power players of that future at very much at play - If the theme is balance, Twilights equal and counter balance is now Buffy with a potential change element in Willow. Xander's speech ends with his "Pinky and the Big Bad" line and leads directly to Faith's attack and the revelation that it is no longer a fair fight between a slayer and Twangel. Buffy is the only force equal to Twangel - will Joss Whedon use her as the counter-balance or do some mystical combination - we just have all those long months to wait for the conclusion.
One thing for sure is that twilight cannot exist with daylight moving toward nighttime - twilight is transitory, it is both ending and beginning.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here the rest at this great Pinky and the Brain site: http://duryea.org/pinky/Pinky.html
I have shown that the Brain NEEDS a sidekick. But who?
First, the name. While the name Brain has certain definite connotations. the name Pinky has a few possible meanings. When mice are born, they do not have any fur yet and their skin is a pink (rosa) color. In English, we add a "y" ("ito" in Spanish) to the end of a name to denote affection. This gives us names such as Jimmy, Tommy, Janey. Thus, the name Pink with a "y" would give us Pinky (Rosito). An affectionate name of a child. Also, we call the our smallest, most insignificant finger the pinky finger (dedito). I do not think that this is a coincidence with Pinky's name. The Brain is mighty! Pinky is, well, a Pinky!
What kind of sidekick? In the examples that I have listed, the protagonist and his sidekick have been opposites. The Wellian Brain is highly intelligent, domineering, short tempered, very focused, selfish, intolerant, and cares about no one but himself and his quest to
dominate everyone and everything. Pinky is very much the opposite in almost everything. He is patient, kind, not jealous or boastful, not arrogant or rude, does not insist on his own way, is not resentful or irritable, does not rejoice at wrong, but rather at right, he bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things and endures all things. Pinky has love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (This sounds like something the Apostle Paul would write!)
Or maybe Pinky is: Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2010 05:42 am #287coalitiongirl
Here's something random- in honor of Buffy's thirteen, Scott Allie posted a link to a picture of his desk on twitter. I'm not sure when those comics are from (probably a while ago, but I still haven't read all of the comics), but the picture is from today, so they might be spoilers? Anyone?
http://twitpic.com/17uhhh
It kind of looks like Dawn's exploding in one of them, but that might be from the Kenny arc.
http://twitpic.com/17uhhh
It kind of looks like Dawn's exploding in one of them, but that might be from the Kenny arc.
Mar 11 2010 05:44 am #288coalitiongirl
And holy crap, is that Spike in the middle panel?
(On second view, it looks more feminine, just with Spike's outfit. And if I squint, I think I see the words Buffy #34 in the corner)
EDIT: It must've been #34, because the tweet and picture have been taken down. Luckily, I saved it beforehand, so it's right here.
(On second view, it looks more feminine, just with Spike's outfit. And if I squint, I think I see the words Buffy #34 in the corner)
EDIT: It must've been #34, because the tweet and picture have been taken down. Luckily, I saved it beforehand, so it's right here.
Thanks for being clever enough to snag it - That very much looks like Spike - but all the hints have been that he would not be part of the story until pretty much the last phase, maybe even only in the Joss Whedon concluding issues - the girl being pushed by the explosion or force looks like Dawn or Willow, however Willow is in the next panel with Xander. Since the color is purposely shifted to high red hues it is hard to tell by what Dawn wears - she and Faith both look to be wearing lavender shades.
Thanks again for posting the image - have to wonder about what kinds of games are being played by the DarkHorse execs - Scott Allie must have known that people would be able to see the images on his desk.
Thanks again for posting the image - have to wonder about what kinds of games are being played by the DarkHorse execs - Scott Allie must have known that people would be able to see the images on his desk.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2010 07:46 am #290coalitiongirl
People on livejournal are speculating that it's a flashback, which makes more sense, but still saddens me.
I'm sure that it was done on purpose- they must've wanted to pique interest by leaking a picture of Spike, only to crush our hopes when we buy it and discover that it's a flashback...
I'm sure that it was done on purpose- they must've wanted to pique interest by leaking a picture of Spike, only to crush our hopes when we buy it and discover that it's a flashback...
Guess they must have figured the Spuffy fanswho were actually reading the comics jumped ship after the last comic (what with the cheesiest Bangel peice ever, can they really be that suprised?), and have figured the way to make them come back is tease us with the possibility of Spike. Really, it's a good marketing plan...gotta give them that (if it's the case of course).
~ Niori ~
I think that the next issues will have a lot of flashback thinking going on by Buffy - I am still holding on to my speculations on Buffy coming into some much needed hard thinking about her life and much needed character development of the "move on to better things" kind. Of course it was done to keep all the discussions going and increase to even more interest from the readers and fans.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2010 05:03 pm #293coalitiongirl
Scott Allie emailed me this morning, asking me to take down the photo. (Maybe because of the spoilers, maybe because they want it to seem even more like an accident, maybe because of the Serenity comic or something else entirely). Anyway, it's still here at Angearia's journal: http://angearia.livejournal.com/124005.html#cutid1
I wonder how they found it. There's no way Scott Allie or his people are monitoring the BSV or the tagbox at Elysian Fields... probably through the S8 community on livejournal....
Here's the text of the email, for those of you who are curious:
Hey, could I get you to take that image down? My PR department felt that it conflicted with some stuff they're doing, and asked me to take it down, but of course it's fuckin' hard to do once it's out there. Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could help me out. Thanks in advance!
Scott
I wonder how they found it. There's no way Scott Allie or his people are monitoring the BSV or the tagbox at Elysian Fields... probably through the S8 community on livejournal....
Here's the text of the email, for those of you who are curious:
Hey, could I get you to take that image down? My PR department felt that it conflicted with some stuff they're doing, and asked me to take it down, but of course it's fuckin' hard to do once it's out there. Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could help me out. Thanks in advance!
Scott
Mar 11 2010 05:31 pm #294BandS
Guest
Wow, I get sidetracked and the comments over the GAG 33 and on comics that are coming up...blows up! LOL. After my monstrosity of a migraine to feeling sick to my stomach...well, I gotta say I ended up finally downloading both #30 of Angel and #33 of Buffy to feeling sick again! Literally!
Can I say I love the Spuffy Community! Love the fan fiction! Now I will blissfully drown in Spuffy fan fiction. I jumped ship from actually purchasing them back in comic # 4 LMAO...I snag then do absolutely nothing with them. Seriously why waste my time and energy. I'd rather try finishing up writing fan fiction than waste it on the comics.
I have to admit I am happy Joss gave us amazing characters, but as far as story...I am not a fan of his. I LOVED Spike's arc, not how it was achieved because he basically placed that Halo that he keeps on Angel's head onto Buffy's head in Season 6 and makes Spike's journey seemed less than it was. I'm always going to feel cheated in Joss's world because when it comes down to it we want a sense of peace or hope at the end of it all...yet when I read what he approves of and writes himself I am anything but at peace.
When Buffy landed on her feet at the end of Season 7 then looked down that road and smiles...I didn't get hope. I actually wanted to claw her eyes out because I don't find her unique. I find her whiny (btw love her in fan fiction 100 times better), way too bitchy, and too hung up on past relationships. Did I mention I couldn't stand her selfishness either? Oh, ya it was all Buffy this and Buffy that. Don't mind me I'm aggravated because it's not even allergy season yet my sinuses are acting up and I'm getting migraine after migraine...not fun.
I won't sound like a broken record but I can't stand Angel. I actually hate how they are portraying Spike in the comics. Only comic I enjoyed with him in it was Asylum. I'm tired of them taking Angel too far with this 'Angel' metaphor when he was even worse than Spike was. He is no Angel. I know Angel's are fallen demons to an extent, but the way it's being written it's like he is in fact measurable to God. Read Angel # 30 and you will understand what I mean when Illyria is talking with him. She wants to use him as a moral compass. I was simply mortified! I know people can change and make amends and all that...but and maybe this is my own issues seeping in---I have a serious problem with that.
A man brutally rapes kids after kids then gets cursed (let's just say) to do right then takes a kid under his wing....falls in love with said kid....then walks the evil side...then gets a halo placed upon his head because his curse is intact to keep him from being evil because he chooses to help the helpless....No FRIGGIN WAY! Yet morally forgetting the underlying message. That curse was thrust upon him. He didn't decide, "Hey I want to redeem myself and help kids" No he didn't it was decided for him just because.
So as you can see I don't buy into this crap. I believe that your imagination takes you places that you cant, won't, or will never go to. I love Joss's premise and the idea of all the characters and some of the things the tv show did, but overall nope I'm not a fan of his. He can soak up the misery for all I care. Because at the end of the day I still believe in happiness and hope. What I read just now made me even more ill than I am.
I wasn't happy about the Bander thing, but now she's all up in 'OH, destiny Angel' LAME and GAG me a River...(Yeah I got Justin's song in my darn head lol)Yeah, it seems like it could be mocking Bangel, but actually after reading everything Allie Ass had to say...I fear what will be done with Spike and Buffy.
Like I said blissfully living in Spuffy fan fiction...so on that note back to reading. My brain is mush lmao.
And wow is that weird...how in the world do they know it's up on your livejournal? I swear this guy is an Ass coalitiongirl. He says he doesn't know what goes on the internet or fan fiction yet clearly he does. Shakes head and stamps his forehead with a big fat Liar on it.
Mar 11 2010 06:54 pm #295coalitiongirl
Here's my new view of what's going on:
Willow: Check it out! Spike and Buffy have been reunited!...Then who's with Angel?
Buffy and Spike: Look! It's Angel and a Buffy decoy! And they're f***ing!
(Buffy decoy glows and glows and glows...and finally explodes.)
(If Riley got Faith-as-Buffy and Spike got robot-as-Buffy, who says Angel has to get the real deal?)
Willow: Check it out! Spike and Buffy have been reunited!...Then who's with Angel?
Buffy and Spike: Look! It's Angel and a Buffy decoy! And they're f***ing!
(Buffy decoy glows and glows and glows...and finally explodes.)
(If Riley got Faith-as-Buffy and Spike got robot-as-Buffy, who says Angel has to get the real deal?)
Mar 11 2010 07:30 pm #296BandS
Guest
Coalitiongirl if my head wasn't in so much pain I'd allow myself to laugh more...That was funny. The chances of that happening though...doubtful...can I wish right along with you though?
We can dream...and write...and cleanse our minds of the utter filth that we've seen and quite possibly will see more of.
And this thing Spike coming in during or after gross sexathon????? Geez why don't they call up those big wigs who do actual porn and live out their dirty disgusting minds...Sorry grumpy now lol...but thanks for the smile for that moment while I'm miserable from stupid headaches...it's not even Allergy season yet!
My thing is this what if nobody got Buffy and Buffy is actually dead from the war...Yes I'm taking what Joss and other rumors have speculated about the possiblity of really killing off Buffy...I'm STILL wondering what they would call the comic then. Would it be called Slayers then? LOL
We can dream...and write...and cleanse our minds of the utter filth that we've seen and quite possibly will see more of.
And this thing Spike coming in during or after gross sexathon????? Geez why don't they call up those big wigs who do actual porn and live out their dirty disgusting minds...Sorry grumpy now lol...but thanks for the smile for that moment while I'm miserable from stupid headaches...it's not even Allergy season yet!
My thing is this what if nobody got Buffy and Buffy is actually dead from the war...Yes I'm taking what Joss and other rumors have speculated about the possiblity of really killing off Buffy...I'm STILL wondering what they would call the comic then. Would it be called Slayers then? LOL
No Chance of killing off Buffy - but it is a very interesting New Action figure for Buffy - they have her sitting on a throne that is totally of the evil throne vibes - Why would they put out that kind of action figure? Maybe they are going for Buffy Heroine conquers the evil empire or who knows, maybe Dark Buffy really is coming our way. As for killing off Buffy - NO WAY, the business folk know where the money is coming from - fans, IMO, would not support a non-Buffy comic book series. Frankly, I don't think many readers care much for what happens to the Slayer army without the Buffy connection - even a transfer over to Bangel would cut off a lot of the readership.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2010 09:38 pm #298coalitiongirl
2maggie2 has pointed out that the exploding girl is an image of Willow from #31, when she's zapped with energy from an event in the future. Flake_sake speculates that Spike's wearing the amulet in the image, and that the two things are related. And BandS, I maintain that no real f***ing will go on...because they're trying WAY too hard to persuade us that it's happening, and how tasteless would it be for the issue called "Them F***ing" would actually BE them f***ing?
I'm not opposed to Buffy becoming a vampire. Just saying.
(And Scott Allie is thinking, hey! Let's take this Twilight (the series, not the Big Bad) comparison even further! On with the vamp!Buffy and baby Renesme! )Yeah, it does seem that they're making a big deal about the f*****, who knows? I wouldn't be surprised either way. And I agree that Allie probably leaked the pic on purpose. The few Spuffy fans that
are still reading are getting more and more annoyed, and he has to dangle Spike in front of our faces I suppose. i still don't understand why they want to piss off such a large section of the fandom.
There are lots of Spike fans, but many gave up on the comics a long time ago. i just started reading again after a long time, only cause my friend gets them. i'm not spending my money on them
any more.
Twuffy sounds too cute and too much like Spuffy so from now on I'm gonna call them BLIGHT. Buffy+Twilight= Blight
Definition of blight..1. Something that frustrates plans or hopes.
2. Something that impairs or destroys. Sounds about right to me. lol
are still reading are getting more and more annoyed, and he has to dangle Spike in front of our faces I suppose. i still don't understand why they want to piss off such a large section of the fandom.
There are lots of Spike fans, but many gave up on the comics a long time ago. i just started reading again after a long time, only cause my friend gets them. i'm not spending my money on them
any more.
Twuffy sounds too cute and too much like Spuffy so from now on I'm gonna call them BLIGHT. Buffy+Twilight= Blight
Definition of blight..1. Something that frustrates plans or hopes.
2. Something that impairs or destroys. Sounds about right to me. lol
Mar 11 2010 11:22 pm #300BandS
Guest
Oh Ami that was pure genius!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!
And what's with him still having a damn job...oh right they want leeks so it gets more viewers...Sorry I'd rather uh uh ya know grab it from the net lmao...ain't getting a damn pretty penny from me!
And what's with him still having a damn job...oh right they want leeks so it gets more viewers...Sorry I'd rather uh uh ya know grab it from the net lmao...ain't getting a damn pretty penny from me!
Nmcil-
I totally saw that action figure (though I can't for the life of me remember where)! It has evil-master bow down to me vibes to the max! If that's not dark Buffy, I don't know what is.
I totally saw that action figure (though I can't for the life of me remember where)! It has evil-master bow down to me vibes to the max! If that's not dark Buffy, I don't know what is.
~ Niori ~
Mar 12 2010 12:18 am #302ladycat713
Guest
try here
http://www.darkfigures.com/throne-of-the-slayer-maquette.html
and definitely evil. All they need is a dead body at her feet.
http://www.darkfigures.com/throne-of-the-slayer-maquette.html
and definitely evil. All they need is a dead body at her feet.
Here is the description of what this new figure is suppose to depict - is this red dress used in one of the "Tooned Buffy" figures?
- Celebrating Joss Whedon's long-running television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the Throne of the Slayer - Buffy Summers Maquette
- This detailed sculpture presents an elaborately seated chosen one, awaiting her next battle with the weight of her duty as the Slayer heavy on her shoulders
- Each piece is individually painted and finished to exacting standards
- Each with its own unique quality and detail that is the trademark of a handcrafted Sideshow Collectibles product
- The Throne of the Slayer - Buffy Summers Maquette is an outstanding addition to any collection, a must-have for all Whedon fans!
- Product Size: 17.5" H (444.5mm) x 11.5" W (292.1mm) x 10.5" D (266.7mm)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yeah...I might be able to see the whole awaiting the battle weight of the duty thing if the throne didn't have SKULLS on it! lol. Skulls are never good. And she does have the dominatrix thing going on...
Which, I go back to, she totally looks evil.
Which, I go back to, she totally looks evil.
~ Niori ~
Think this is going to be a tie in with the ending of the season eight? how else does this make any kind of sense. When is Buffy in the series A Queen? or Dark? What it does do in my imagination is bring us right back to the first page of Season Eight when Buffy refers to the title which the new slayers call her "MA'AM" which is one of the names used for Queen Elizabeth - another Elizabeth, and as pfeifferpack informed me, Buffy is a form of Elizabeth, that had a war and all the duties of her office and power struggles at full play in her life - not to mention all the troubles she had with the men in her life.
This is due to be release in August - almost at the conclusion of the comic book season.
I don't remember Buffy being a Dark Slayer - has she been?
This is due to be release in August - almost at the conclusion of the comic book season.
I don't remember Buffy being a Dark Slayer - has she been?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
She wasn't exactly at her best in season six either (yeah, she had her whole post-heaven depression as a *cough* excuse *cough*, but if that wasn't treading on the darkside (not the sex with Spike, but the hate, rage, disgust and how it made her act), I don't know what was.
And season eight Buffy as morally defunct kinda goes without saying (or, as we've said many times in this dicussion lol).
And season eight Buffy as morally defunct kinda goes without saying (or, as we've said many times in this dicussion lol).
~ Niori ~
So this meeting, if I am getting this right, could also be a dream?
Only reason I ask, is I remember back in the earlier Q's & A's when Twilight identity had leaked Scott Allie and even Joss said what we see in these covers isn't exactly what is happening or even a part of the book itself...
I'd like to argue that point. That kiss was at the end...I seriously think they gave us the details but were desperately trying to cover it up so they could still get sales.
Exactly the point of why they won't see a penny from me. And it's not because of Bangel. I have known plenty of people who have gone back to dating an ex some time or other in their lives, but like Nmcil's Waning thread and the comments made are quite logical. I have seen plenty of times that Angel and Buffy dated for years and had this great love, but going back to it I'm seriously wondering what is others meaning of love and relationship. Because I didn't see that. So when I read what was happening at the end of that book...I almost gave Buffy a big FINALLY when she tells Angel he doesn't know her anymore that basically they are different people...until she friggin caves and kisses him.
It's this that pissed me off and now I finally realized what most were saying...this could possibly be a dream. Which Joss and company def knows how to pull.
So what's the verdict? Dream or Reality?
Only reason I ask, is I remember back in the earlier Q's & A's when Twilight identity had leaked Scott Allie and even Joss said what we see in these covers isn't exactly what is happening or even a part of the book itself...
I'd like to argue that point. That kiss was at the end...I seriously think they gave us the details but were desperately trying to cover it up so they could still get sales.
Exactly the point of why they won't see a penny from me. And it's not because of Bangel. I have known plenty of people who have gone back to dating an ex some time or other in their lives, but like Nmcil's Waning thread and the comments made are quite logical. I have seen plenty of times that Angel and Buffy dated for years and had this great love, but going back to it I'm seriously wondering what is others meaning of love and relationship. Because I didn't see that. So when I read what was happening at the end of that book...I almost gave Buffy a big FINALLY when she tells Angel he doesn't know her anymore that basically they are different people...until she friggin caves and kisses him.
It's this that pissed me off and now I finally realized what most were saying...this could possibly be a dream. Which Joss and company def knows how to pull.
So what's the verdict? Dream or Reality?
Mar 12 2010 06:34 pm #312coalitiongirl
I think reality, unless if she's also dreaming her friends' reactions.
Don't you think that there has been too much of a build up for this to be a dreamscape sequence? I do think that eventually we will get some kind of mind/memory travel for Buffy. There have been too many hints at sexual encounters from the start and a dream sequence would not be a strong resolution. I can see some kind of mind probe or, best from what I would like for the character a flashback and contemplation on what her love relationships have been.
I just thought about another wild speculation about the new figure - Buffy in the persona of The Red Queen of Hearts.
I just thought about another wild speculation about the new figure - Buffy in the persona of The Red Queen of Hearts.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2010 08:58 pm #314coalitiongirl
Moscow_Watcher sent Scott Allie an email explaining our displeasure at what's been going on and with a link to her review on #33. Here's his response, if you're interested.Here
Mar 12 2010 09:24 pm #315pfeifferpack
Thanks for the link Coalitiongirl (and yay Elena for taking him on in the first place). The more Allie "opens his mouth" the less respect I have for him. He is like a twelve year old boy in his dealings with criticism. I was more angered reading the letters section of the comics and his spoutings online about complaints than with the comic story itself and that says a lot!
As for Joss being some sort of sacred cow....there are no words! This is the guy who whines about his precious creative output being ruined by others (and the words he uses for them, especially Donald Southerland, is not even remotely polite!). Joss Whedon didn't even have a hand in it all. Not only was it a collaboration including all his writing staff and the performers who made the words what they became based on how they delivered them (including the body language and facial expressions) but he turned Buffy over to Marti Noxon when he moved on to Firefly and barely paid attention to those last few seasons, at least the details. He gave birth to the characters and basic premise but he was NOT the guiding light of each character growth! I have to stop the rant now.....
Kathleen
As for Joss being some sort of sacred cow....there are no words! This is the guy who whines about his precious creative output being ruined by others (and the words he uses for them, especially Donald Southerland, is not even remotely polite!). Joss Whedon didn't even have a hand in it all. Not only was it a collaboration including all his writing staff and the performers who made the words what they became based on how they delivered them (including the body language and facial expressions) but he turned Buffy over to Marti Noxon when he moved on to Firefly and barely paid attention to those last few seasons, at least the details. He gave birth to the characters and basic premise but he was NOT the guiding light of each character growth! I have to stop the rant now.....
Kathleen
Mar 12 2010 09:26 pm #316ladycat713
Guest
And she didn't apologize at all for her actions in season six when it was brought up in season 7, her response to Spike was you're just now getting that!
And it's not Buffy's dream or reality, it's our nightmare.
And it's not Buffy's dream or reality, it's our nightmare.
Mar 12 2010 09:28 pm #317coalitiongirl
Hee, I'm posting my rant on that letter here, too.
See, this is why we don't like him.
But seriously, if he's a public figure and he can't stop adding his personal feelings to posts to us, how can he expect the same of us? He attacks characters, we attack his presentation of characters. Even fanfic writers get positive and negative feedback, and they're not even fighting with the canon of the show. Allie has no right to complain about criticism from fans- does a president whine that people are posting negative things about him on a blog?
But my puzzlement is this—some of his dedicated readers and fans assume the worst about Joss, and about all of us working with him. But have you ever considered that Joss treats Angel and Spike the way he does because he thinks it's truthful? That Angel and Buffy have a certain kind of relationship, and that Spike and Buffy have another kind, two different relationships that evolve over time, but come from some basis in human experience.
Perhaps, but Joss was working with a different crew then, who grasped the characters far better. There was a thread at the BSV discussing this for a while -so many of us see Joss as a god. But he's not. He's flawed and opinionated, and the people who were there to make sure that it wasn't all one man's vision are gone now (including the actors, who were probably far more in tune with their characters than the writers) and replaced with people who haven't even seen all of BtVS and AtS, and began working with certain expectations. If you're told at the start of the comics that Twilight is actually Buffy's old lover at the start, and Spike is not a factor, you're going to be looking forward to writing that from the start. You're not going to care about Spike at all. Just for example.
See, this is why we don't like him.
But seriously, if he's a public figure and he can't stop adding his personal feelings to posts to us, how can he expect the same of us? He attacks characters, we attack his presentation of characters. Even fanfic writers get positive and negative feedback, and they're not even fighting with the canon of the show. Allie has no right to complain about criticism from fans- does a president whine that people are posting negative things about him on a blog?
But my puzzlement is this—some of his dedicated readers and fans assume the worst about Joss, and about all of us working with him. But have you ever considered that Joss treats Angel and Spike the way he does because he thinks it's truthful? That Angel and Buffy have a certain kind of relationship, and that Spike and Buffy have another kind, two different relationships that evolve over time, but come from some basis in human experience.
Perhaps, but Joss was working with a different crew then, who grasped the characters far better. There was a thread at the BSV discussing this for a while -so many of us see Joss as a god. But he's not. He's flawed and opinionated, and the people who were there to make sure that it wasn't all one man's vision are gone now (including the actors, who were probably far more in tune with their characters than the writers) and replaced with people who haven't even seen all of BtVS and AtS, and began working with certain expectations. If you're told at the start of the comics that Twilight is actually Buffy's old lover at the start, and Spike is not a factor, you're going to be looking forward to writing that from the start. You're not going to care about Spike at all. Just for example.
First of all good for moscow! Just read Scott's email to her, and sorry doesn't impress me.The more he speaks, the less respect I have for him. He comes across as a whiny 12 yr old. He can dish it out, but he can't take it . Basically he called Spike a rapist and Spike lovers are some kind of deviants cause we like Spike. And no one is supposed to criticize the comics, cause Joss is Joss? OK ...NO! It's like you said CG...the show was more than Joss. it was the actors and other writers who know these characters. It seems to me that the comics writers are all pro Bangel, who see that as the only relationship that mattered to Buffy. So they're gonna write that. And Spike fans have the right to voice their opinions. Buffy and Angel have a relationship that evolved over time? When? When he left her and basically wasn't in her life for 4 yrs.? B/A is stuck in a HS first love trope,and last I looked that doesn't sound too evolved. Oh well what do I know? I'm just a deluded Spike fan.
Mar 14 2010 07:47 pm #319SpaceLord
Guest
A couple of thoughts here, if it's a dream sequence then it's up there right along with Dallas and Bobby Ewing .
I came up with a way to save this POS comic when I was watching som Monthy Python a while back, all you need is the army officer to come in and say that this is silly and now for something completely different.
. I came up with a way to save this POS comic when I was watching som Monthy Python a while back, all you need is the army officer to come in and say that this is silly and now for something completely different.
Another Scott Allie intervew,this one about the Spike picture that he Twittered and then asked to be removed. Apparently it is a Buffy/Spike flashback, but he calls it a "kinda flashback"...whatever the heck that means.
Link....buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/03/scott-allie-on-spike-and-tweet-heard.html
Link....buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/03/scott-allie-on-spike-and-tweet-heard.html
Mar 15 2010 02:45 am #321coalitiongirl
I'm thinking that means that Willow, Xander and Dawn are talking about it happening, but that image is all the flashback we see. Makes sense, based on the spoiled page...
Here is an interesting interview from Buffyfest with Scott Allie - and his perceptions on the characters -
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_S8NvEtc8_m8/S4r2NwXB3HI/AAAAAAAADSc/XiI06FL3O88/s1600-h/Super+Scott+Allie+Blackground.jpg
Tomorrow's release of Buffy Issue #33 means a lot to fans of Season 8 because Buffy will finally get to see the face under the Twilight mask. Not only that, but 99.9% of us will be free to talk openly about Twilight's true identity as Angel. Even though we've known for a while now, it doesn't mean we're not chomping at the bit to find out the why of it all.
With all the praise, publicity and backlash going on in the fandom these past few months, we figured it was time to ask Dark Horse Editor Super Scott Allie (pictured left) a few questions about Angel and his opinion on what drives the character, the importance of the shanshu, his favorite season and a bit more. If you squint hard enough, there's definitely some (very) subtle hints at what's to come in here. Plus, check out the piece of new preview art at the bottom of the page!
Buffyfest: Let's start with the basics. What do you like most about the character of Angel and what do you dislike most?
Scott Allie: My favorite novel is Frankenstein. To me, Frankenstein is the epitome of the Byronic hero, wonderful but flawed, poetic but monstrous. I'm a big fan of the Dexter TV show, and there's a similar thing going on there. It's this that I love in Angel, same as Spike. All of these guys are monsters and heroes, romantic figures with terrible downsides. These are all poignant figures, genuinely tragic. With Angel, he's got so much to atone for, and even as he strives to make up for it, he's heading toward something worse. It's amazing.
Buffyfest: Not only are you an editor at Dark Horse, but you've also done quite a lot of writing, such as your work on Solomon Kane and Exurbia. If you could write one episode of Angel on TV which Season would it be in and why?
Scott Allie: Final season, because I think it has the most interesting mix of characters.
Buffyfest: It's fascinating that some fans love every season except 5 and others think it's the strongest season. What specifically do you think makes the season 5 group of characters more interesting than the earlier seasons?
Scott Allie: The characters had really become themselves, they'd settled into their personalities and in some cases powers. Some of the character dynamics, the relationships, were in really good shape. The whole thing with Fred, with Spike and Angel. I don't remember how much Connor was in it. Was he in it much? I think it's a little like the Rolling Stones. They did their best stuff, they stood on their own the best, after the Beatles were gone. Between the Buttons compared well to some Beatles records, but with Sticky Fingers the Stones were entirely, perfectly their own band, and only then were they the Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Band in the World. What were we talking about?
Buffyfest: Ha! Great metaphor. Next up, if you could write a scene between Angel and either Buffy, Giles or Faith who would you choose and why? What would happen in that scene?
Scott Allie: If it was a choice between those, it'd be Giles. It'd be fun to write a scene with Buffy, because I love writing real love scenes, characters that genuinely have that level of connection. But the thing I'd like to deal with in a scene with Giles is Angel's much greater age and experience. Given my personal interests, my background, I'd love to write a scene between these two amazing occult detectives.
Buffyfest: Angel is a very controversial figure for many reasons, but one being his decision to take over Wolfram & Hart. Do you feel that decision makes him less of a hero or was he backed in a corner and trying to do the best he could with his choices?
Scott Allie: I dunno. That wasn't my favorite development. Doesn't make him less of a hero, but it does play into the flawed thing I was talking about before. And it did make me a little less interested in him.
Buffyfest: Buffy and Angel are about to be thrown into each others paths in Season 8 with the revelation of Twilight. What do you think Whedon finds so fascinating about their relationship that he keeps coming back to it?
Scott Allie: These characters spawned a whole genre, this paranormal romance thing, with that other Twilight. It's a big deal. He created something epic, iconic, archetypal with this relationship. That was something I put a lot of thought into with Conan, the few ideas that come along once in a while and really speak to us in a huge, permanent way, spawning unlimited imitations.
Buffyfest: Staying on the topic of these two characters, what do you think makes Buffy and Angel similar as heroes and what makes them different?
Scott Allie: They're similarly moral, heroic, flawed, arrogant. Part demon, with a sharp wit, mad ninja skills. But they're real different, in interesting ways, more personal ways. She's defined by her friends, he connects in limited ways with just about anyone but her. She's got a strong moral compass, that's only undermined by her selfishness. Well, it's not as simple as that, but that is an aspect of her. His morality is more self-serving, but not selfishly so.
Buffyfest: What are your feelings about the shanshu? Do you think Angel will be rewarded at the end of his story? Do you think he should be?
Scott Allie: I'm conflicted on this. I would love to see the shanshu through, but I don't know if Angel really needs to be defined by it. I personally think that at the end of the day, that prophecy is not the most important thing for Joss when it comes to Angel.
Buffyfest: So then, what do you think is the most important thing for Joss when it comes to Angel and following up on that, in the most general sense, what matters most to the character of Angel?
Scott Allie: One word to answer both questions, and this is not gonna be popular with some fans, but you can see it coming ... Buffy.
Thanks to Scott for a really interesting interview. If you haven't seen the preview for Issue #33, check it out
See below for an extra preview page where, to quote Scott, "Giles explains the secret history of vampires and slayers." What? What secret history? Oh man,
Season 8 is about to get really interesting.
This is the link for the large image:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QmNAd4TNh5U/S4y0C3-wxkI/AAAAAAAAAd8/k02g5ui8s3E/s1600-h/BUFFYpreviewgiles.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QmNAd4TNh5U/S4y0C3-wxkI/AAAAAAAAAd8/k02g5ui8s3E/s1600-h/BUFFYpreviewgiles.jpg” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Another good link for Questions about the Twilight Arc and Fray timeline -
http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/02/buffy-s8-twilight-arc-let-shit-storm.html
http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/02/buffy-s8-twilight-arc-let-shit-storm.html
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 15 2010 05:48 am #324CM
Guest
Well, Joss didn't completely abandon BTVS for the other work. He still gave script approval over every single ep, etc, he just wasn't on set every single day anymore. But he supported where the story went, everyone's corroborated that, from actors to writers to himself. He was on set for the filming of the balcony scene, for instance, where SMG told him she didn't think Buffy would be going down this road, and he didn't care that she disagreed about the character. It was going where it was going and that was that. So really, bag on the guy for having a very skewed view of what's good for his characters rather than being an absentee creator. He backed Marti a 100%.
Okay, did Joss ever take the actor's advice? Because all the time you hear one of the actors saying (or said, since it's past tense) that they wanted to do something different, take another direction, etc...and all the time they get ingored. Like seriously, how many things did SMG suggest that got totally ingored (the best of being season 4 Spuffy lol)? 'Cuz I know I've read interviews where various actors were saying they didn't like the way season six went.
~ Niori ~
Mar 15 2010 06:05 am #326coalitiongirl
If there's one thing we can say about Joss, it's that he supports his crew. I think that most of what went wrong in S6 was Noxon's fault, even if it was Joss's big picture, and his acceptance of the blame in her place was more about defending her than actually being at fault. And I know that he also sat down with SMG and talked out the whole S6 situation with her when she had trouble with it, and I've heard about her doing the same for JM at one point, too. And I can't fault him for not taking the actors' requests over his own vision, especially after he turned down SMG and NB's proposal for S7 Bander... I'm not happy with his decisions, but I do appreciate the way he did respect his crew. S8 might have tanked, but I think that criticizing him for these things is unfair...
I have to agree coalitiongirl - Joss Whedon did know where the story-lines and arc for the series were going, he intended them to go there by his approval. And while there are many aspects of Season Six that I completely disagree with, primarily the entire lack of consequences for the actions taken by the characters, outside of Spike, I think that we all can agree that Joss Whedon and his writing staff gave us the most emotionally powerful season, IMO, of the entire series. Irrespective of any individual interpretation and perspectives, the Buffy-Spike relationship treatment touched our hearts and connected with us to the highest degree. There was nothing during Season Six and this relationship that did not demand serious introspection and call on the viewers to question all the moral and ethical themes of this arc. Nothing else, again in my opinion, in the entire series demanded more of the viewers -
While many people point to Buffy's sending Angel/Angelus back into the portal as one of the emotional high points of the series - did that really have more of the emotional impact that the brutal attack and their struggle in the alley scene? The first was a heart breaking, yet simple statement - the Slayer's rite of passage into her full acceptance of her duty. With the alley scene all is ripped away, only the brutality and powerful emotions and trauma that people can, and do sink to, is presented. Each and every viewer was completely engage and had to reach their own conclusion of the stark exploration of Buffy's character as well as Spike's. And the same demands are made in "Seeing Red"
Season Six brought to each prime character their darkness and the depth to which they would all lower themselves to - either from arrogance, personal agendas, fear, weakness of character - it was all there, all those ugly things that they wanted to hide from or deny. And ultimately, this season gave James Marsters one of his greatest scenes ever, his confessional and transition into the Jesus figure, man's fall from his grace, and the redemption path.
I will never be sorry that Season Six came to the Buffyverse - and as far as the actors and their recommends and concerns, I think that in their hearts and at the end of everything, James Marsters and Sarah Michelle Gellar both know that they were given the opportunity to extend their skills to the utmost and that Season Six gave them superb acting roles - roles that all serious actors would have loved to play and will always be grateful that they have those parts as part of their actor's portfolio.
All of these actors, which I think were outstanding, have nothing to complain about and everything to be grateful for - Buffy the Vampire Slayer and AtS were a great collaboration between all the creative people involved. Were there many things that I continue to have problems with in the resolution to many of the arc and themes and character's actions, certainly, but then this is why the series was so important to all of us. What other TV series has touched our lives with this depth and intensity? For myself, I don't think there has been any other dramatic series that has done so. There have been individual dramas or fine art presentations that have connected with me on the same level, but for a weekly series, for all those years - nothing else has come close.
While many people point to Buffy's sending Angel/Angelus back into the portal as one of the emotional high points of the series - did that really have more of the emotional impact that the brutal attack and their struggle in the alley scene? The first was a heart breaking, yet simple statement - the Slayer's rite of passage into her full acceptance of her duty. With the alley scene all is ripped away, only the brutality and powerful emotions and trauma that people can, and do sink to, is presented. Each and every viewer was completely engage and had to reach their own conclusion of the stark exploration of Buffy's character as well as Spike's. And the same demands are made in "Seeing Red"
Season Six brought to each prime character their darkness and the depth to which they would all lower themselves to - either from arrogance, personal agendas, fear, weakness of character - it was all there, all those ugly things that they wanted to hide from or deny. And ultimately, this season gave James Marsters one of his greatest scenes ever, his confessional and transition into the Jesus figure, man's fall from his grace, and the redemption path.
I will never be sorry that Season Six came to the Buffyverse - and as far as the actors and their recommends and concerns, I think that in their hearts and at the end of everything, James Marsters and Sarah Michelle Gellar both know that they were given the opportunity to extend their skills to the utmost and that Season Six gave them superb acting roles - roles that all serious actors would have loved to play and will always be grateful that they have those parts as part of their actor's portfolio.
All of these actors, which I think were outstanding, have nothing to complain about and everything to be grateful for - Buffy the Vampire Slayer and AtS were a great collaboration between all the creative people involved. Were there many things that I continue to have problems with in the resolution to many of the arc and themes and character's actions, certainly, but then this is why the series was so important to all of us. What other TV series has touched our lives with this depth and intensity? For myself, I don't think there has been any other dramatic series that has done so. There have been individual dramas or fine art presentations that have connected with me on the same level, but for a weekly series, for all those years - nothing else has come close.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
'Buffy' Artist Georges Jeanty Talks Twilight, Exclusive Art [SPOILERS]
Fans of the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" comic woke up to shocking news several weeks ago when the secret identity of Twilight, the villain of Season 8, was revealed by leaked solicits much sooner than either the fans or creators had anticipated.
(And if you have somehow managed to avoid the news until now, be warned that the following contains SPOILERS.)
Dark Horse Comics and Buffy creator Joss Whedon
CA:
When did you first learn the news that Twilight's identity had been leaked? What was your reaction?
GJ: Like everyone. It was on
Whedonesque. I thought something had changed and we were just going ahead and showing the covers for solicitations. It was surprising and unfortunate.
CA: Obviously, everyone knows now that Angel is Twilight, although we have seen Angel as a villain before in the Buffy universe. What makes this different?
GJ: Well that's the thing that actually might play in our favor. Die-hard Season 8 readers will notice some inconsistencies if Angel is indeed Twilight, not the least of which is he can fly. And he seemed stronger than Buffy for a while there. The reveal of his identity aside, that's only half the story. There is so much more that needs to be explained about Twilight because it is Angel.
CA: Some fans have responded very strongly to the news, particularly because it came in advance. How much do you think this reveal will alter the impact of the Twilight storyline, and Season 8 as a whole?
GJ: I don't think it will affect the flow of the story. Those who don't know wont get that sudden Joss [sic] of breath when they turn the page and see that it's Angel, true, but the events leading up to that will have sparked so many other questions that revealing Angel will look like just the beginning of what is sure to become an engaging and fascinating final act to Season 8. I feel bad for the writer, Brad Meltzer. He had a great little rabbit in a hat and it came out prematurely through no fault of his own. Long-time readers will not stop reading after Angel is revealed; there's still too much left to tie up.
CA: Some fans have also responded very strongly to the news simply because a beloved character has been turned into a villain. When the full story comes out, do you think that some of those concerns will be assuaged?
GJ: That's not a yes or no question. Buffy fans had to deal with Angelus, twice, so the fact that Angel is perceived as the bad guy in Season 8 wont come as a shock. Season 8, just like all the past seasons, continues to have these characters grow and evolve. If Season 8 had just done generic stories I think the some of the fans would have jumped ship a while ago. I think this season especially is one of growth far beyond what we've seen before. These characters are now represented as adults in extraordinary circumstances. By the end of Season 8 I think people are going to be demanding Season 9 because of where Season 8 is going to leave the Scoobys.
CA: Buffy is obviously a franchise that has a devoted fan base completely independent of the comic book medium. Has the experience of working with Joss, or interacting with the fans of the title been significantly different from your experiences on other books?
GJ: A resounding YES! I was totally unprepared for the Buffy fan base. Like I said, I was never into the series when it aired, so all those milestones like Buffy falling for Angel, or Joyce dying, or the musical episode, or Tara dying, or Buffy dying, or Buffy dying again, was all lost on me. I remember being at Dragon*Con one year and I was walking around and I saw this line waiting to get into the big hall that they have for the major events. I asked some of the people who were standing in line what were they waiting to see, they said James Marsters was performing with his band. And I thought, oh, a singer. Was he popular? Because I had never heard of him. I was told that he was the one who plays Spike on Buffy, but I was still drawing a blank. "The guy with blond hair." A faint recollection came over me. I walked away saying to my friend, boy, some of these fanboys will stand in line for anything. Little did I know that years later I would curse having missed that performance!
So, yeah, I don't think I've ever come across fans like Buffy fans, and I've had the great pleasure of meeting fans in several countries and they are all amazing! And they love to party. Go figure!
CA: In your work, do you ever use photo reference or look back at the show for inspiration, or do you envision the comics characters independently of that?
GJ: All the time! I have tons of pictures of all the characters and I'm practicing all the time. I try my hardest to get the faces right without having them look like they are taken directly from a photograph. I like to think I have stylized the characters to the point where they don't look photo real, but they have the flavor of the character they're supposed to resemble. I get a lot of criticism on this and everyone has an opinion on it. I am constantly drawing the character's heads. It takes me 30% more time to do a Buffy page than, say, a Gambit page, because of the likenesses. But how hard is my job when I get to sit around all day and draw Sarah Michelle Gellar, Alyson Hannigan or Michelle Trachtenberg?
CA: Joss recently revealed that there he has some plans in the works for Spike, as well. Is that something you're going to be involved with?
GJ: I would love to draw Spike! He was one of the great characters of the series and I'd love to get my hands on him!
CA: Any teases you can give us about exciting stuff that hasn't been "spoiled" in Season 8?
GJ: Now that we are coming to the final act it would be a shame to reveal anything because all of the events that have been moving Season 8 forward are going to come to a deffinate head. All I can say is keep reading. This ride isn't over yet and you wont believe how it ends!
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 19 2010 03:25 am #329ladycat713
Guest
I just hope they don't draw Spike looking like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.
| Curiouswolf wrote: |
| Is it just me or is Joss in his own little world where he thinks there is a big pent-up demand for Bangel done season 6 Spuffy style and everyone is waiting with more bated breath for Riley? |
Who gives a Flying F about Riley - and what a crock for all the readers - SA specifically stated that Riley was a minor character and would not be given a large part of the page space in the rest of the series - Now he is having a One-Shot. As a reader and fan, I am really disgusted with all these attempts to manipulate the readers and fan base. We don't deserve it - we have supported the Buffyverse, Angelverse, Firefly, Dollhouse and all the other Whedonverse projects - we have supported the actors, hell I have spent my hard earned money on all the comic books, non-fiction analysis - I even went as far as buying the music cd's by James Marsters that remain unopened-opened to this day since I am not a big fan of James the singer. I did all of this out of love, respect and devotion to The Buffyverse and frankly I am pissed off with all this BS that has been going on. With all the BS about how the business arrangements with IDW mitigated against use of their franchise agreements and all along Twangel was going to become the pivotal character in the Season Eight - that sucks, it it sucks even more because I believed Joss Whedon. If I were the creative staff and executives at IDW I would be royally angry with how things have come down from DarkHorse.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 21 2010 08:27 pm #331coalitiongirl
I don't know, I'm not opposed to a Riley oneshot. I think that oneshots like that exist to give minor characters more depth, and frankly, I didn't see much of any depth to Riley in the whole show- so I think it'll be interesting to give him a showcase. I'm not happy about a lot of the comics, just like you, Nmcil (exactly what you said, in fact. ), but this is not one of my complaints about Joss.
I will, of course, be reserving judgment on the Bangel until that's more developed and explained. #35 is a make-it-or-break-it deal for me, right now, because I have little hope for 34.
), but this is not one of my complaints about Joss.I will, of course, be reserving judgment on the Bangel until that's more developed and explained. #35 is a make-it-or-break-it deal for me, right now, because I have little hope for 34.
Mar 21 2010 11:07 pm #332CM
Guest
You've (We) gotta remember that comics aren't done for the show fanbase. They're done for *comic* fans. Who by a vast majority buys comics? Young males. With that in mind, a Riley one-shot makes total marketing sense. It's a story boys would buy.
(James' CDs unopened? That makes me sad. Though he's better live than what the producers did to his songs on the albums.)
(James' CDs unopened? That makes me sad. Though he's better live than what the producers did to his songs on the albums.)
Mar 21 2010 11:24 pm #333coalitiongirl
Ironically, his song "Angel" most reminds me of the Spuffy relationship and is probably my favorite of anything he's done outside of OMWF.
Mar 21 2010 11:54 pm #334slaymesoftly
Moderator
The James CDs I have don't get opened or played. I don't buy them unless they come as part of a package at a James-centric event.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
It's not really the Riley One Shot that I mind, it's the saying one thing and doing another that I object to - SA specifically stated that he was not going to have a lot of increase or more page space - this is like all the stated policy about cross-overs and business arrangements - when all along, for years, Twilight was going to be Angel/Whatever.
Now over at IDW - Willingham is turning Spike into a womanizer - his latest issue has Spike using another woman/vamp, calls her just an hour of distraction
Spike: a lot of women assume all sports of things about me. But you were just an hour's distraction - a chance to nail a celebrity. Northing More. Unless you want to try something even more adventurous, like adding a third party into the mix?
Then it goes on to some more muck about bringing in another actress in for this potential triad - and of course the artist has depicted Spike all sexy and I guess it was meant as a joke, wearing heart designed Hearts short styled briefs. Unless the "commando" wearing of no underwear is nothing but FF wank, Spike does not wear any under wear.
I was prepared to give Mr. Willingham a good amount of time to develop his story and his character's voice - but I don't see much of anything good being done thus far with Spike or the AI team - or Connor. Hell the have Spike going to bed with the actress turned vamp after seeing her in a blood drenched bed after just killing and feeding from some poor victim, what the heck does this writer have in his head about these characters. The ending page shows Angel/Angelus after finally being rescued and allow to go free by Illyria sitting with his legs all opened - maybe I'm just a dirty old lady now - the only thing missing from that image is for his dick to be hanging out for all to see - maybe some to get a big happy over.
As far as doing comics for "comic book readers" vs "the fanbase." who do they think is buying these books - if it were only their normal market, they would not be able to publish them - I suspect that a big portion of the revenue being generated from these comics is coming from the TV fanbase.
I will try to scan the Spike VampSex panels later and post them tomorrow. For the rest of the night I plan to do something sensible like watching the final show down and count down with the Health Care Bill debate and passage by The House of Representatives. Spike and the panels will just have to wait.
Now over at IDW - Willingham is turning Spike into a womanizer - his latest issue has Spike using another woman/vamp, calls her just an hour of distraction
Spike: a lot of women assume all sports of things about me. But you were just an hour's distraction - a chance to nail a celebrity. Northing More. Unless you want to try something even more adventurous, like adding a third party into the mix?
Then it goes on to some more muck about bringing in another actress in for this potential triad - and of course the artist has depicted Spike all sexy and I guess it was meant as a joke, wearing heart designed Hearts short styled briefs. Unless the "commando" wearing of no underwear is nothing but FF wank, Spike does not wear any under wear.
I was prepared to give Mr. Willingham a good amount of time to develop his story and his character's voice - but I don't see much of anything good being done thus far with Spike or the AI team - or Connor. Hell the have Spike going to bed with the actress turned vamp after seeing her in a blood drenched bed after just killing and feeding from some poor victim, what the heck does this writer have in his head about these characters. The ending page shows Angel/Angelus after finally being rescued and allow to go free by Illyria sitting with his legs all opened - maybe I'm just a dirty old lady now - the only thing missing from that image is for his dick to be hanging out for all to see - maybe some to get a big happy over.
As far as doing comics for "comic book readers" vs "the fanbase." who do they think is buying these books - if it were only their normal market, they would not be able to publish them - I suspect that a big portion of the revenue being generated from these comics is coming from the TV fanbase.
I will try to scan the Spike VampSex panels later and post them tomorrow. For the rest of the night I plan to do something sensible like watching the final show down and count down with the Health Care Bill debate and passage by The House of Representatives. Spike and the panels will just have to wait.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 22 2010 12:51 pm #336slaymesoftly
Moderator
Unless the "commando" wearing of no underwear is nothing but FF wank, Spike does not wear any under wear. James says he doesn't wear underwear, and I think fans have seized on that. However, as often as we see a supposedly naked Spike putting on his pants, there is never any underwear visible, so I think we can assume it's canon also. I don't recall whether he mentions it anywhere in canon, but someone will know I'm sure. *g*
I don't have a problem with Spike banging a lot of women. He's never been portrayed as not being quite fond of women or sex. His heart is another matter - as long as he doesn't fall immediately in love with someone else, I'm okay with whatever else he does.
I think the problem with the comics isn't so much appealing to the wrong fanbase - although that is an issue, for sure - but that the comics are being drawn and written by people who have the comic-book mindset and don't think about the buyers who have come there from somewhere else. They're doing what has always worked for them and are surprised to find that they have new readers who are very invested in the characters and very picky about what happens to them and how they are portrayed.
I don't have a problem with Spike banging a lot of women. He's never been portrayed as not being quite fond of women or sex. His heart is another matter - as long as he doesn't fall immediately in love with someone else, I'm okay with whatever else he does.
I think the problem with the comics isn't so much appealing to the wrong fanbase - although that is an issue, for sure - but that the comics are being drawn and written by people who have the comic-book mindset and don't think about the buyers who have come there from somewhere else. They're doing what has always worked for them and are surprised to find that they have new readers who are very invested in the characters and very picky about what happens to them and how they are portrayed.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
If there is continuity that can be applied to the images, which the artist Brian Denham is doing fine work on, the use of Hearts-Blood-Vamp-Wrapped is tied into how these elements reflect back on how Angel/Angelus is being used. His heart and blood is being used to create these vamps. Spike is rendered much better on the other panels I posted. I posted this one here as it pertains more to the topic.
click on "all sizes" to select the size you want to look at as these are large files
link to Large original size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4455033180/sizes/o/
click on "all sizes" to select the size you want to look at as these are large files
link to Large original size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4455033180/sizes/o/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I don't really mind Spike sleeping with other women either, as long as he doesn't fall in love. You're right slaymesoftly, Spike is a very sexual creature. I just don't want him portrayed as a sleazy womanizer all the time. There's more to Spike than that. But comic book readers don't want to see soulful, loving Spike I guess. They want this Spike, the sexy, love em and leave em type. The writers are used to writing their comics this way, and I don't think they get that there are fans of the show who don't see their characters this way. I think that's one of the problems of the comics. Alot of the fans are watchers of the shows, not just your typical young, male comic reading crowd. And we who are fans of the show and not young males, get annoyed at the way these characters are portrayed. That's why IMO I don't think BtVS or AtS really work in comic book form and why Joss shouldn't have made this official canon, it's too different. I think the majority of the readers of AtF and Bufy s8 are watchers of the show and not the typical comics crowd and maybe that's why sales keep dropping and people are disastiffied.. It's not the story they want ,and it's not written to thier satisfaction. At least that's the way it is for me. I stopped reading for a long time and just started reading again. I seriously doubt I'll read S9. It looks like thy're gonna take it someplace i'm not interested in. I agree with nmcil, Joss has not been very honest IMO. And since he's not telling a story that I really like or am interested in I am not wasting money on it. Sorry, that's how I feel about it. I'm reading again cause they are loaned to me.
Thank you for the link, nmcil. And no matter what can be said about the Angel comics, Brian Denham draws an awesome ,gorgeous Spike, He looks like Spike, like JM.I mean, look at those abs.Mercy! I shudder at the thought of Georges Jeanty drawing him. Oh man, he'll either look like an adolescent or he'll look like Angel did in #33...older and middle aged or kinda creepy and weird.
Brian Denham is drawing a wonderful Spike - the Red large panel is really well done - I just hope that some of our readers will take the time to check out my flickr page with all the additional images -
For me, what the writer is doing with his Spike, and I only speak to his cycle thus far, is placing Spike back in the early seasons, it's like all his "transformation journey" has been disregarded. And if IDW has made the decision to free Spike from his Buffy Love cycle - fine, that is their prerogative - but this Spike is totally sleazy to me - going off for a shag session with that just killed victim right there in the panel and that blood drenched bed. It's one thing to have the sex scene, but to have their hero model carry on in this way, that just does not make any sense to me. Perhaps Bill Willingham, like DarkHorse and Joss Whedon, has made the choice to move these characters in a totally different direction and we are going to have a new persona of Spike - Spike womanizer, cold hearted, pragmatist, get the job done - Spike at the nadir of the character, the completely evil and cruel vampire that stakes Harmony with little more regard than he would kill a bug.
I have no idea where this writer plans to do with his Angelverse - but I suspect that if he continues with his current perspective on the character - IDW will start losing a lot of the Spike and Buffy fan base - lot of the Spike lovers will simply stop buying until Brian Lynch starts his Spike series. The readers are not stupid and we get all the visual connections between this scene and the Angel/Angelus Heart and Blood Mummy arc - I was even very excited about the potential of using Illyria as a voice for the exploration of the cultural and moral realities of human society, but this really a huge disappointment thus far.
link to Large original size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4455033180/sizes/o/
For me, what the writer is doing with his Spike, and I only speak to his cycle thus far, is placing Spike back in the early seasons, it's like all his "transformation journey" has been disregarded. And if IDW has made the decision to free Spike from his Buffy Love cycle - fine, that is their prerogative - but this Spike is totally sleazy to me - going off for a shag session with that just killed victim right there in the panel and that blood drenched bed. It's one thing to have the sex scene, but to have their hero model carry on in this way, that just does not make any sense to me. Perhaps Bill Willingham, like DarkHorse and Joss Whedon, has made the choice to move these characters in a totally different direction and we are going to have a new persona of Spike - Spike womanizer, cold hearted, pragmatist, get the job done - Spike at the nadir of the character, the completely evil and cruel vampire that stakes Harmony with little more regard than he would kill a bug.
I have no idea where this writer plans to do with his Angelverse - but I suspect that if he continues with his current perspective on the character - IDW will start losing a lot of the Spike and Buffy fan base - lot of the Spike lovers will simply stop buying until Brian Lynch starts his Spike series. The readers are not stupid and we get all the visual connections between this scene and the Angel/Angelus Heart and Blood Mummy arc - I was even very excited about the potential of using Illyria as a voice for the exploration of the cultural and moral realities of human society, but this really a huge disappointment thus far.
link to Large original size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4455033180/sizes/o/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Wow....that is one hot drawing....
Ahm. Anyway.
Um, anyone else have a problem with the whole she just killed someone and Spike shurgged it off and slept with her thing, since he still has his soul. I mean, he might not have the whole must save all the innocents thing going on as Angel does, but he does the whole saving people thing. I don`t think all the carnage and that would turn him on as much as it did in his pre-soul days, but that`s just my opinion (that I garnered from when he went insane from guilt). And walking away to just let her kill more people- yeah, not seeing that as much either.
And hey, if Spike wants to have sex, he should have it. Lots of sex...and they should get this guy to draw it all (lol). But don`t turn him into a jackass about it- christ, he spent how long being told he was just convient and a distraction, and now they have him saying it back to someone else. In the panel posted he was totally pulling a Angelus & Buffy morning after. Hell, even with Harmony, he treated her terribly, but at least he had some sort of kinda `relationship`thing with her.
Argh....what is with all those stupid offical people that are so determined to turn my favourite character into a complete and total jerk that I should hate. They did it at the end of season six, and they`re doing it here now...*sigh*
Okay, rant over. Now back to my history paper.
Ahm. Anyway.
Um, anyone else have a problem with the whole she just killed someone and Spike shurgged it off and slept with her thing, since he still has his soul. I mean, he might not have the whole must save all the innocents thing going on as Angel does, but he does the whole saving people thing. I don`t think all the carnage and that would turn him on as much as it did in his pre-soul days, but that`s just my opinion (that I garnered from when he went insane from guilt). And walking away to just let her kill more people- yeah, not seeing that as much either.
And hey, if Spike wants to have sex, he should have it. Lots of sex...and they should get this guy to draw it all (lol). But don`t turn him into a jackass about it- christ, he spent how long being told he was just convient and a distraction, and now they have him saying it back to someone else. In the panel posted he was totally pulling a Angelus & Buffy morning after. Hell, even with Harmony, he treated her terribly, but at least he had some sort of kinda `relationship`thing with her.
Argh....what is with all those stupid offical people that are so determined to turn my favourite character into a complete and total jerk that I should hate. They did it at the end of season six, and they`re doing it here now...*sigh*
Okay, rant over. Now back to my history paper.
~ Niori ~
Mar 23 2010 02:06 am #341slaymesoftly
Moderator
That is a seriously hot Spike. Worth buying the comic just to drool over the pictures. lol But I agree with Niori, I really don't see Spike being comfortable with a vamp that had just killed someone and who was going to continue to kill. I think he'd have been more likely to stake than to "stake" her. *G*
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
"That is a seriously hot Spike. Worth buying the comic just to drool over the pictures. lol But I agree with Niori, I really don't see Spike being comfortable with a vamp that had just killed someone and who was going to continue to kill. I think he'd have been more likely to stake than to "stake" her. *G* "
The Spike I remember from the series, in this time-line would have taken her to that other room, punched her out cold, trussed her up and taken her to the "get info location" - I HATE THIS SPIKE persona. And I equally HATE the last panel with Illyria and Angel/Angelus - what is this?
link to large image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4456364612/sizes/o/
The Spike I remember from the series, in this time-line would have taken her to that other room, punched her out cold, trussed her up and taken her to the "get info location" - I HATE THIS SPIKE persona. And I equally HATE the last panel with Illyria and Angel/Angelus - what is this?
link to large image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4456364612/sizes/o/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I just took a look at your flikr page and yeah, totally disturbing. Spike would not do that. They're making him as bad as S2 Spike. Our Spike would not act this way. he'd stake the skeeve ,not screw her after she killed someone. I don't think any of these writers EVER saw BtVS or AtS 5. Both comics are seriously getting close to ruining our fave characters. *ugh*
The scene with Spike in underwear with hearts was funny tho. But Spike would'nt wear that, I guess it's meant to be cutesy, funny. Now imagine that with panel with commando Spike,LOL. Angel and Spike both got close up crotch drawings. I keep thinking that these comics are doing this version of Spike to make Angel look so much better, the hero. And Spike is just the snarky, sleazy sidekick who could never be as good as Angel. Who knows? I just get that feeling. I can't wait for Spike to get his own series, maybe then he'll be like the Spike we remember from the show.At least Brian Lynch really seems to like Spike, even tho I don't think we're ever gonna get the old Spike back. And I think both comics are just gonna lose more and more of the fans of the show.
The only thing that I take enormous pleasure in is that Buffy #34 with the glowy! Blight Sex will not be as pretty as Denham's Spike. LOL Cause yeah, this Spike is HOT, and Jeanty's drawings don't hold a candle to this, Uh Uh. We can all laugh at the ugly Blight sex, *iz feeling evil and petty* 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Okay, I just went to that poll and saw the answer from IDW (or whoever) that she got back, and 'a jerk who ocassionally does good thing' thing? Did these people not SEE Season 7 and Angel Season 5??? Seriously?
Argh...I feel like ranting again. Good thing I have to go to class.
Argh...I feel like ranting again. Good thing I have to go to class.
~ Niori ~
Mar 23 2010 09:42 pm #347coalitiongirl
Okay, finally, I think I understand why the IDW people are such idiots about Spike.
Okay, so imagine they've only seen AtS. Which is probable, since few of their characters have a role (if any) on BtVS. So they just read a summary of BtVS or whatever. If even that.
So what do they know of Spike? They know that as soon as he became solid, he grabbed Harmony to go have sex with her. They've seen AtS S1, in which Spike is calling Buffy "Slutty the Vampire Layer", and AtS S5, in which Spike says things like "I'm sure she was thinking of you all those times I was sticking it to her." (We understand this as Spike's insecurities about Bangel acting up. They haven't seen the loving Spike that we have.) So they conclude that Spike is a womanizer.
They're wrong, of course, uninformed, and missed out on the whole Spike story. And I'm disgusted with the whole thing.
Guess this is another reason why you can't change genres and call it canon. Not that most people consider the AtS comics canon. And since Spike was the only reason that the show even made it to the fifth seasons, I'm sure that they'll lose more and more readers who realize that Spike is gone and has been replaced by someone new wearing his (admittedly lovely) face.
Okay, so imagine they've only seen AtS. Which is probable, since few of their characters have a role (if any) on BtVS. So they just read a summary of BtVS or whatever. If even that.
So what do they know of Spike? They know that as soon as he became solid, he grabbed Harmony to go have sex with her. They've seen AtS S1, in which Spike is calling Buffy "Slutty the Vampire Layer", and AtS S5, in which Spike says things like "I'm sure she was thinking of you all those times I was sticking it to her." (We understand this as Spike's insecurities about Bangel acting up. They haven't seen the loving Spike that we have.) So they conclude that Spike is a womanizer.
They're wrong, of course, uninformed, and missed out on the whole Spike story. And I'm disgusted with the whole thing.
Guess this is another reason why you can't change genres and call it canon. Not that most people consider the AtS comics canon. And since Spike was the only reason that the show even made it to the fifth seasons, I'm sure that they'll lose more and more readers who realize that Spike is gone and has been replaced by someone new wearing his (admittedly lovely) face.
Mar 23 2010 11:07 pm #348slaymesoftly
Moderator
Good assessment, coalitiongirl. I hadn't thought about that, but of course they've only bothered to watch Angel and are judging Spike on what they saw there. Angel's show appealed to males much more than Buffy did, so even if they were fans of the TV shows, chances are they only watched Angel, not BtVS. I think there's an excellent argument to be made for not call the Angel comics canon. Much more so than Season Eight Buffy. In this case, Joss isn't providing any guidance that I know of, so they're pretty much on their own in terms of character development and story lines.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Word to all you said coalitiongirl. Even less reason to consider the Angel comics canon. Not that the Buffy ones are any better, but at least Joss is there for what it's worth. Thank god I'm not reading them. All I see is when nmcil posts links to the panels, and it's pretty bad IMO. These comics should never have been the continuation of the shows, like you say the change of genre is too different. It makes me sad that "our" Spike is gone, probably never to return. The ONLY thing that's good about 'em is the way that Spike is drawn, He looks amazing and gorgeous. Yeah, lots of people forget that AtS got a fifth season cause of Spike. Too bad IDW doesn't know what an amazing character Spike became and IS. He's not this man whore they're portraying.It pisses me off. The more I see of both comics, the madder I get at Joss for letting this be the new versions of our loved BtVS and AtS characters. He's practically ruined the verse for me. And that makes me sad and pissed. I really think for me fanfiction is the way to go. But for some reason I keep going back to all this comics stuff. Hopefully it won't leave us too disappointed. But I think we will be.
Even less reason to consider the Angel comics canon. Not that the Buffy ones are any better, but at least Joss is there for what it's worth. Thank god I'm not reading them. All I see is when nmcil posts links to the panels, and it's pretty bad IMO. These comics should never have been the continuation of the shows, like you say the change of genre is too different. It makes me sad that "our" Spike is gone, probably never to return. The ONLY thing that's good about 'em is the way that Spike is drawn, He looks amazing and gorgeous. Yeah, lots of people forget that AtS got a fifth season cause of Spike. Too bad IDW doesn't know what an amazing character Spike became and IS. He's not this man whore they're portraying.It pisses me off. The more I see of both comics, the madder I get at Joss for letting this be the new versions of our loved BtVS and AtS characters. He's practically ruined the verse for me. And that makes me sad and pissed. I really think for me fanfiction is the way to go. But for some reason I keep going back to all this comics stuff. Hopefully it won't leave us too disappointed. But I think we will be. Ami - I am very reluctantly starting to get the same feeling - that these comic books are ruining the Buffyverse and Angelverse for me - they don't seem to connect with what was compelling to me in the TV series. Granted change is good and must happen and I wanted so much to have this new writer, which was suppose to be very good, to give new life and create a wonderful new phase for the Angelverse and for Spike - what I have read thus far, I am terribly disappointed with. If what Chris Ryall's statement about Spike is how this character is perceived than it is nothing but bad news for the character.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 24 2010 12:35 pm #351CM
Guest
Eh, from the time I first heard story hints, I knew all the comic stuff wouldn't continue the series storylines in a serious way. They're a lark, crack!fic (BTVS ones more so), and a way to cash in. Guys, honestly, the only reason to get upset is whether people that read the comics before seeing the shows think this is what the shows were. But even then, they'd still be pretty dumb not to check out the shows if they LIKE these comics, anyway.
Fanfic writers have always cared more about continuity than Joss and co. It's just how it is and always will be.
Now take the artwork you like and put a GOOD story with it, like all the other wonderful banners we've had created.
Fanfic writers have always cared more about continuity than Joss and co. It's just how it is and always will be.
Now take the artwork you like and put a GOOD story with it, like all the other wonderful banners we've had created.
"Ironically, his song "Angel" most reminds me of the Spuffy relationship and is probably my favorite of anything he's done outside of OMWF. "
have a link where I can hear it? I am sorry to say that I have not listened to the cd's - have listened to a few items on youtube but that is all - I will, if I can find again the link for the concert plus Shakespeare reading, buy this one as well. I love his "Importance Of Being Earnest."
I wish that he would do a Reading From Favorite Plays cd - think he would have a big seller with readings - Don't know how the public domain would apply - but with all the nonsensical Monsters Parodies that are being created after all the success with the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, I suspect that he use many classics. I tried reading that P&P and Zombies but could not get beyond a few pages - last time I went to Amazon there was a list of around 8 similar books now. Some ambitious FF writer that likes to do comedy should do Sense and Sensibility with Spike and Buffy with Willoughby as some kind of demon. Scenes at Bath would be wonderful with demon highbrows -
"have a link where I can hear it? I am sorry to say that I have not listened to the cd's - have listened to a few items on youtube but that is all - I will, if I can find again the link for the concert plus Shakespeare reading, buy this one as well. I love his "Importance Of Being Earnest."
I wish that he would do a Reading From Favorite Plays cd - think he would have a big seller with readings - Don't know how the public domain would apply - but with all the nonsensical Monsters Parodies that are being created after all the success with the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, I suspect that he use many classics. I tried reading that P&P and Zombies but could not get beyond a few pages - last time I went to Amazon there was a list of around 8 similar books now. Some ambitious FF writer that likes to do comedy should do Sense and Sensibility with Spike and Buffy with Willoughby as some kind of demon. Scenes at Bath would be wonderful with demon highbrows -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 24 2010 09:18 pm #353CM
Guest
Here are the lyrics for "Angel":
She comes home to me after a hard night's work
Falls in my arms and sleeps like a bird
Startled, wakes up, like she don't know me
Cocks back her fist like she's going to slug me
Like, who are you anyway
And what are you doing to me?
She's an angel
But she can't see it
She's got wings,
But she can't feel 'em
She's an angel
But she can't see it
But she's flying above me every day
Every day of my life
Bright diamond eyes with daggers beneath them
She carries the chains of a million decisions
That weren't even hers to begin with anyway
But she carries them all
All the people around her
Never even notice that she's very, very tired
She's an angel
But she can't see it
She's got wings
But she can't feel 'em
She's an angel
But she can't see it
But she's rising above me every day
Every day of my life
He wrote it for an ex.
She comes home to me after a hard night's work
Falls in my arms and sleeps like a bird
Startled, wakes up, like she don't know me
Cocks back her fist like she's going to slug me
Like, who are you anyway
And what are you doing to me?
She's an angel
But she can't see it
She's got wings,
But she can't feel 'em
She's an angel
But she can't see it
But she's flying above me every day
Every day of my life
Bright diamond eyes with daggers beneath them
She carries the chains of a million decisions
That weren't even hers to begin with anyway
But she carries them all
All the people around her
Never even notice that she's very, very tired
She's an angel
But she can't see it
She's got wings
But she can't feel 'em
She's an angel
But she can't see it
But she's rising above me every day
Every day of my life
He wrote it for an ex.
Thanks for posting the lyrics - it does fit Buffy and Spike - guess this will now be on my next Spuffy vid project - looks like I will have to open up his cd.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 26 2010 09:35 am #355CM
Guest
The best versions of "Angel" are from concerts. Do a search on YouTube. The original recording of "Angel" for GOTR is on the "Mad Brilliant" CD and has more of a rock sound.
Thanks for the youtube tip -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
things just keep getting worse - but at least the next issue is finally coming out and we can all see just where this is all headed.
One thing that I was thinking about the other day was now that Buffy is an adult and has all this experience of life and death and war, guess the old arguments about any life experience and age differences is now mute.
Since Joss Whedon never accepted that this age and life experiences between Buffy and Angel/Angelus were never important or wrong in their relationship - I am extremely interested in seeing how he plans to resolve all this.
With all the Captain America references from these last issues, I am hating, but all starting to give a little more thought to the speculation that Angel will impregnate or that Buffy will some how end up carrying a child or a future incarnation of a Power Player. Perhaps Buffy will be the start of a new blood line for the future. At least we will finally get to the history that Giles has been withholding.
I am still holding out for a great big Life Lesson for Buffy, but that is only because that is what I would want for the character. I wish Joss Whedon has the balls to turn Twang el into a real Umber Villain - but that is never going to happen. Maybe this is going to be the great big "foil the plots for control" of Angel/Angelus in this Apocalypse that the Senior Partners and other Super Powers have been working toward.
One thing that I was thinking about the other day was now that Buffy is an adult and has all this experience of life and death and war, guess the old arguments about any life experience and age differences is now mute.
Since Joss Whedon never accepted that this age and life experiences between Buffy and Angel/Angelus were never important or wrong in their relationship - I am extremely interested in seeing how he plans to resolve all this.
With all the Captain America references from these last issues, I am hating, but all starting to give a little more thought to the speculation that Angel will impregnate or that Buffy will some how end up carrying a child or a future incarnation of a Power Player. Perhaps Buffy will be the start of a new blood line for the future. At least we will finally get to the history that Giles has been withholding.
I am still holding out for a great big Life Lesson for Buffy, but that is only because that is what I would want for the character. I wish Joss Whedon has the balls to turn Twang el into a real Umber Villain - but that is never going to happen. Maybe this is going to be the great big "foil the plots for control" of Angel/Angelus in this Apocalypse that the Senior Partners and other Super Powers have been working toward.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Some pretty funny comments behind the preview link.
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Apr 02 2010 03:41 am #360coalitiongirl
Georges Jeanty Q&A, and the rage is back again...
http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10609&page=1
5. lmblack21: Re: the new Scott Allie interview mentioned above, regarding what is most important to Angel - Buffy - I have to say as a Buffy/Angel pairing lover, I was very happy to see it. But I can't help but wonder about Connor and Angel's ongoing story arc of redemption. Can you talk about whether or not those factors will be raised?
Georges: The main story is the whole Twilight issue. I don't know what Joss has planned for any fall out stuff, but maybe that's what Season 9 will cover...
10. Billie Erin: Who would you blame Twilight's actions on? Angel, Buffy or a third party?
Georges: How about this for an answer: an older party?
12. cheryl: Is it safe to assume that just maybe Joss might allow them to finally be together? For real?
Georges: Sure that can happen, but as you well know, with Joss, every monumental occasion has consequences....
14. bamph: Based off the ending of today's issue, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how hot will things get between Buffy/Angel in upcoming issues?
Georges: 10.
15. moscowwatcher: Angel says he helps Buffy to avoid bigger body count. But in earlier issues every panel featuring Twilight and his accomplices clearly depicts him as the leader and the head of anti-slayer conspiracy. Did you draw those earlier panels that way because you didn't have enough information about Twilight, or your depiction is correct and in issue 33 Angel is lying to Buffy?
Georges: I think Angel says this more as in the bigger picture. People have died getting to where they are, but in the bigger picture it's not as many as could have if he hadn't stepped in. The Slayer line is very much at the forefront of all of this drama. There is a lot to be said at the end of this season.
Would it be safe to assume that Angel IS Buffy's romantic interest of season 8?
Georges: Hasn't he always? I mean in the history of great loves there has been Adam and Eve, Romeo and Juliet, Dylan and Donna, and Buffy and Angel.
It's also been stated by Scott A that the curse is not an issue at the moment, can you give us any hints as to why?
Georges: I could but where would the fun be in that?
32. bamph: Can you give any artistic teases for either next issue or the issue after? Anything you're really proud of in your work coming up that you would like to share with us?
Georges: I'm really proud of certain body parts that I had to draw in the next issue....
http://forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=10609&page=1
5. lmblack21: Re: the new Scott Allie interview mentioned above, regarding what is most important to Angel - Buffy - I have to say as a Buffy/Angel pairing lover, I was very happy to see it. But I can't help but wonder about Connor and Angel's ongoing story arc of redemption. Can you talk about whether or not those factors will be raised?
Georges: The main story is the whole Twilight issue. I don't know what Joss has planned for any fall out stuff, but maybe that's what Season 9 will cover...
10. Billie Erin: Who would you blame Twilight's actions on? Angel, Buffy or a third party?
Georges: How about this for an answer: an older party?
12. cheryl: Is it safe to assume that just maybe Joss might allow them to finally be together? For real?
Georges: Sure that can happen, but as you well know, with Joss, every monumental occasion has consequences....
14. bamph: Based off the ending of today's issue, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how hot will things get between Buffy/Angel in upcoming issues?
Georges: 10.
15. moscowwatcher: Angel says he helps Buffy to avoid bigger body count. But in earlier issues every panel featuring Twilight and his accomplices clearly depicts him as the leader and the head of anti-slayer conspiracy. Did you draw those earlier panels that way because you didn't have enough information about Twilight, or your depiction is correct and in issue 33 Angel is lying to Buffy?
Georges: I think Angel says this more as in the bigger picture. People have died getting to where they are, but in the bigger picture it's not as many as could have if he hadn't stepped in. The Slayer line is very much at the forefront of all of this drama. There is a lot to be said at the end of this season.
Would it be safe to assume that Angel IS Buffy's romantic interest of season 8?
Georges: Hasn't he always? I mean in the history of great loves there has been Adam and Eve, Romeo and Juliet, Dylan and Donna, and Buffy and Angel.
It's also been stated by Scott A that the curse is not an issue at the moment, can you give us any hints as to why?
Georges: I could but where would the fun be in that?
32. bamph: Can you give any artistic teases for either next issue or the issue after? Anything you're really proud of in your work coming up that you would like to share with us?
Georges: I'm really proud of certain body parts that I had to draw in the next issue....
Apr 02 2010 03:47 am #361slaymesoftly
Moderator
I think I just threw up in my mouth....
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Oh man, it just gets worse and worse doesn't it? Everything I read by the Dark Horse people just make me sick.
This...Georges: I'm really proud of certain body parts that I had to draw in the next issue...What kind of sleazy answer is that? What are we gonna get, a glowy! Twangel pe****?/sarcasm I mean come on...have some class plz.
Check out his answer to the question about romantic interest. He says that in the history of great loves there has been Adam& Eve, Romeo & Juliet, Dylan & Donna and Buffy & Angel. WTF?? Since when are Dylan & Donna a couple? What a moron. lol And really, Buffy & Angel are now one of history's great loves? OK Georges. He probably thinks Bella/Edward are one of historys truly epic couples too.
i think i'll just read the reviews, cause seriously i don't think I can stomach the Blight sex..:shudders:
This...Georges: I'm really proud of certain body parts that I had to draw in the next issue...What kind of sleazy answer is that? What are we gonna get, a glowy! Twangel pe****?/sarcasm I mean come on...have some class plz.
Check out his answer to the question about romantic interest. He says that in the history of great loves there has been Adam& Eve, Romeo & Juliet, Dylan & Donna and Buffy & Angel. WTF?? Since when are Dylan & Donna a couple? What a moron. lol And really, Buffy & Angel are now one of history's great loves? OK Georges. He probably thinks Bella/Edward are one of historys truly epic couples too.
i think i'll just read the reviews, cause seriously i don't think I can stomach the Blight sex..:shudders:
Apr 02 2010 02:40 pm #364ladycat713
Guest
Blight is a good name for it. As in a Blight upon our eyes!
Apr 02 2010 03:40 pm #366slaymesoftly
Moderator
Blight is an excellent name! And should be used in any and all communications wit DH comics.
In other, Patti-is-out-of-it, subjects - who are Dylan and Donna?
In other, Patti-is-out-of-it, subjects - who are Dylan and Donna?
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
I think that they may be from the original 90210, but I'm not completely sure.
...which kinda proves that they're NOT one of the epic historical romances. lol. As a History major, I can think of many, many other (better) great loves in history.
...which kinda proves that they're NOT one of the epic historical romances. lol. As a History major, I can think of many, many other (better) great loves in history.
~ Niori ~
I'm going to hope that what is important in this nonsensical list is Adam and Eve as creators symbols and hopefully "The Expulsion" mythic significance.
Man needs to seriously get with the program about the audience for the origianl TV era and the new readers that came to comic books due to Season Eight -
Try Aberlard and Heloise, Tristan and Isolde, Ramona and Alejandro, Lancelot and Geneviere, and these are just some that come to mind immediately.
And reality check on the whole star-crossed lovers of Romeo and Juliet, that couple never killed anyone for their own agenda.
Man needs to seriously get with the program about the audience for the origianl TV era and the new readers that came to comic books due to Season Eight -
Try Aberlard and Heloise, Tristan and Isolde, Ramona and Alejandro, Lancelot and Geneviere, and these are just some that come to mind immediately.
And reality check on the whole star-crossed lovers of Romeo and Juliet, that couple never killed anyone for their own agenda.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
slaymesoftly...Dylan and Donna were on the original 90210 in the 90's, but they were NEVER a couple. Dylan was with Brenda and Kelly. So, the man doesn't even know his couples, much less historic couples.*snerk* And what's so great about Romeo/Juliet? They killed themselves for pete's sake.
BLIGHT is all I'll ever call them..have from the beginning. A blight on the world!
Apr 02 2010 10:46 pm #370slaymesoftly
Moderator
Thanks, all. Never watched that show so the names meant nothing to me. Apparently for good reason? LOL
And, yeah, Romeo and Juliet - a couple of hormonal, overly emotional teenagers who killed themselves. Not what we want for our Buffy! (Kisses that make her want to die notwithstanding...)
And, yeah, Romeo and Juliet - a couple of hormonal, overly emotional teenagers who killed themselves. Not what we want for our Buffy! (Kisses that make her want to die notwithstanding...)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Joss Whedon has every right to do whatever the fuck he wants with his Buffyverse, but right now I feel like that early train wreck is just about to run me and vast number of his devoted fans under that train. Maybe if JW had never said that Buffy loved Spike, and he did not give us all those visual symbol that clearly depicted that these two people were joined both in spirit and in love. Maybe if Spike, as his self-created hero along with his symbolic guide, had not taken one of the most powerful and splendid trans-formative stories ever created for television, and even in literature, it would not matter, but they did, and he was ultimately responsible for what his writers did with the character - now it's like none of that ever happened or it has absolutely no significance at all.
I tell you, that if he has Buffy going back on the I Love Angel track, and I don't care what her motivation is, he will have created one of the most pathetic models for women and women in love of all time - Buffy can join the other most pathetic lover that I know of, Anna Karenina who also threw herself under a train out of her love and emotional weakness.
Please feel free to share this images if you want - I can see that Angel/Angels/Twilight is going to get the biggest bullshit white wash once again. Apparently killing hundreds of people is of little importance if you can justify it with your "personal agenda or perspective on truths" And you know what, maybe if thousands or real people had not been killed in our wars in the Middle East caused by all those Super Power Player Elites, on both sides. I guess deep down in my little Joss Whedon Love Heart, I was really expecting something with a lot more heart and soul and heroic expression for taking responsibility for your actions.
link to large image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4484630413/sizes/o/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
From this Georges Jeanty interview - I think we can have our Spuffy laugh just now but it looks like things are going to get very Bangel, with a big change in the why of it all - I don't hold much hope at all with any Spike connection as a significant love interest in the future. I always thought that the scene with Buffy basking in the light of Angel Love and all the cookie dough and a tribute to the history of the show, guess I was totally wrong.
I know one thing, I will not be paying any of my hard earned cash to follow Buffy loves Angel, but we can't be together - I don't care how much I loved the TV series.
14. bamph: Based off the ending of today's issue, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how hot will things get between Buffy/Angel in upcoming issues?
Georges: 10.
15. moscowwatcher: Angel says he helps Buffy to avoid bigger body count. But in earlier issues every panel featuring Twilight and his accomplices clearly depicts him as the leader and the head of anti-slayer conspiracy. Did you draw those earlier panels that way because you didn't have enough information about Twilight, or your depiction is correct and in issue 33 Angel is lying to Buffy?
Georges: I think Angel says this more as in the bigger picture. People have died getting to where they are, but in the bigger picture it's not as many as could have if he hadn't stepped in. The Slayer line is very much at the forefront of all of this drama. There is a lot to be said at the end of this season.
I know one thing, I will not be paying any of my hard earned cash to follow Buffy loves Angel, but we can't be together - I don't care how much I loved the TV series.
14. bamph: Based off the ending of today's issue, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how hot will things get between Buffy/Angel in upcoming issues?
Georges: 10.
15. moscowwatcher: Angel says he helps Buffy to avoid bigger body count. But in earlier issues every panel featuring Twilight and his accomplices clearly depicts him as the leader and the head of anti-slayer conspiracy. Did you draw those earlier panels that way because you didn't have enough information about Twilight, or your depiction is correct and in issue 33 Angel is lying to Buffy?
Georges: I think Angel says this more as in the bigger picture. People have died getting to where they are, but in the bigger picture it's not as many as could have if he hadn't stepped in. The Slayer line is very much at the forefront of all of this drama. There is a lot to be said at the end of this season.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sorry for posting any more badness but here is an MTV interview with Brad Meltzer and a preview page...it's kinda cringe worthy, but then again we were expecting all the Blight sexins'. *iz feeling sick*
link..splashpage.mtv.com/2010/04/05/brad-meltzer-joss-whedon-buffy-the-vampire-slayer/
Check out Buffy with the little Miss Innocent act [at least it seems that way to me. ] Like she hasn't done everything under the sun with Spike.
This really annoyed me too.. "No matter how mad or upset certain people are that Angel was the "bad guy" here, I'm just blown away by how much the first reaction tends to be, "Oh my god we're going to get Buffy and Angel back together." I think that speaks to what Joss and his writers built over all these seasons."
WTF,has he been living under a rock? Hasn't he seen all the pissed off fans and the mockery and that half the fandom is totally upset and giving up on these comics? :shakes head: And according to him it doesn't matter that Twilight has done all this evil stuff, it's all "OMG Bangel is back together." These writers sound like 14 yr old Twilight (the horrid books) fangirls. And I for one don't think this speaks to what Joss has built over these seasons, it speaks that Buffy is still an immature 15 yr old. And if that's what Joss has been building to, then he really is a hack.
And all I can think about is poor Spike being dragged into the middle of this fuckery. I'm not sure I'll read, I think maybe I'll just read the reviews, cause I really don't need Blight loving images in my stressed out brain.
Apr 06 2010 01:20 am #374DreamScape99
I was on Whedonesque, saw that interview, read that interview, and now I'm trying to repress the urge to vomit. I haven't really kept up with the discussion on here, but after reading that I had to see what people with actual sense thought about it so naturally I came here.
Ugh....I am just so disappointed and disturbed....I just don't know what to do anymore
Ugh....I am just so disappointed and disturbed....I just don't know what to do anymore
How can they say that it's breaking the last taboo with the sex? Man, season 6 was a total sexathon.
And why did I look? Why do I always look? lol. With the way the characters were drawn, it was kinda like I was looking at child porn. It was not good. *shudder*. Excuse me while I go watch Spike-centric episodes to make myself feel better...
And why did I look? Why do I always look? lol. With the way the characters were drawn, it was kinda like I was looking at child porn. It was not good. *shudder*. Excuse me while I go watch Spike-centric episodes to make myself feel better...
~ Niori ~
With something like this, when you're dealing with their love and these characters reuniting, this is the final taboo that's left. I'm just amazed by how sensitive he was to how readers are going to see it and react.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These people are such so full of Bull Shit: "Well, we're always going to be sensitive to these characters and their relationship"
This is why they titled this coming issue with such regard to the "sensitivity" to the characters and the theme being presented. I don't about anyone else here, but I never think of "making love" with the person you love as "fucking" - In all my years of being with my first husband or my present husband have I ever described or thought of our sexual intercourse in such language. The term is course and vulgar in my world view of what it means to show your love and emotional connection with another person. If what you are doing is nothing more than getting gratification for your sexual urges, than yes "fucking" is all that it is. I guess their heroine model ends up being nothing more than a sexual slut and physical abuser after all -
What A Great Laugh on all the viewers who actually thought that Joss Whedon and his writers were actually trying to say something about this young girl heroine model and the powerful transformation story that they presented with Buffy and Spike in their relationship. What does this writer think Buffy was doing all through Season Six - after they decided to turn her into a abuser and emotionally broken character? Buffy had sex with Spike over and over, and she kicked his ass and gutted him emotionally over and over and over. Now because she is with Angel, guess Angelus is gone bye-bye now, she is turned into a sensitive young woman so in love that nothing matters.
I am really really really interested to see just where Joss Whedon is finally going to take Buffy and all the themes from her story as a woman and a woman in love. Considering that I have never read anything that has some serious discussion from him about the Buffy attempted killing of Faith - how he ends this is going to finally decide if I stay a Whedon fan or not. This is very serious stuff to me - this idea that Angel and Buffy, when she was that very young and totally inexperienced, was something should be accepted as "A good relationship" is something that I can never agree with. If Joss Whedon continues to think so, that's his business and completely his right - but as a woman and speaking for all the mothers that I know, it totally sucks - I know that not one of the mothers or fathers that I know would ever see their young teenage daughter going with a mature male of vast worldly experience as something good or something that they would accept.
." He's very hands-on with this stuff — and he should be.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 06 2010 05:29 am #377Scarlet Ibis
It simply boils down to this: It's not our show.
That's all I have to say about that.
I can't speak about Buffy and what she would or wouldn't do. Honestly, I don't get her character half the time. But Angel? I can't see him regressing that much ever
outside of being possessed/brain wiped/something stupid like that. He hadn't loved Buffy for a long time, and he lost his belief in prophecies and all that jazz in s5.
This is rubbish, pure and simple. It's not even worth mentioning at this point.
I think Joss knew he was losing the audience, and decided to lay out WTFery times a hundred to boost sales again.
After all, how many are going, "Oh, this makes me sick! It's garbage!" but are starting to buy the comics again? Not me, but still.
That's all I have to say about that.
I can't speak about Buffy and what she would or wouldn't do. Honestly, I don't get her character half the time. But Angel? I can't see him regressing that much ever
outside of being possessed/brain wiped/something stupid like that. He hadn't loved Buffy for a long time, and he lost his belief in prophecies and all that jazz in s5.
This is rubbish, pure and simple. It's not even worth mentioning at this point.
I think Joss knew he was losing the audience, and decided to lay out WTFery times a hundred to boost sales again.
After all, how many are going, "Oh, this makes me sick! It's garbage!" but are starting to buy the comics again? Not me, but still.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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WORD! to all of that scarlet. It's not our show. And the sooner we realize it, the better off we'll be I think. Buffy ended in S7, this is something totally different.
You're right sales are down , and they needed something to get people buying and commenting and getting worked up over. And what better than the old shipping wars? Bangel vs Spuffy Round 1000. same old ,same old.
Lots of people hate the comics,but are still buying.I stopped buying and reading them for a long time. Now I'm reading again cause a friend lends them to me, and I regret doing that. I shouldn't have started up again. My bad. It only makes me grumpy and unhappy. The only consolation I have is that Dark Horse is not getting any more of my hard earned money.
You're right sales are down , and they needed something to get people buying and commenting and getting worked up over. And what better than the old shipping wars? Bangel vs Spuffy Round 1000. same old ,same old.
Lots of people hate the comics,but are still buying.I stopped buying and reading them for a long time. Now I'm reading again cause a friend lends them to me, and I regret doing that. I shouldn't have started up again. My bad. It only makes me grumpy and unhappy.
The only consolation I have is that Dark Horse is not getting any more of my hard earned money. Well I am really disappointed and will probably be one of the readers that they will lose - I have no interest at all in a story based on Buffy-Angel Love - I'm actually thinking that this might turn out a very good thing for me in the long run - get me away from all the time and energy I spend on my Buffyverse and Angelverse fan time.
I just had my question about Buffy trying to sacrifice Faith as an exchange for Angel's life and got told It was one of the silliest things posted in the entire discussion - also told I was an example of the fandom getting crazy and scary again. Apparently the moral and ethical questions are of no importance - Faith deserved it and she got her just rewards for her evil ways. Wonder what Angel/Angelus deserved for killing Jenny Calendar?
I just had my question about Buffy trying to sacrifice Faith as an exchange for Angel's life and got told It was one of the silliest things posted in the entire discussion - also told I was an example of the fandom getting crazy and scary again. Apparently the moral and ethical questions are of no importance - Faith deserved it and she got her just rewards for her evil ways. Wonder what Angel/Angelus deserved for killing Jenny Calendar?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 06 2010 05:43 pm #380Scarlet Ibis
Ami, I too stopped buying and reading ages ago. The last one I read was only because it was penned by Jane Espenson--the Harmony comic--and I was not
disappointed.
<-<3's Jane.
Nmcil, that is terrible. Your question is borderline crazy, huh? Well, considering the commenters probably think where the story is headed is fantastic, well, do
you really trust their judgment? I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you.
It's funny because, even Angel, the wronged party in that situation, didn't get up in arms over Faith trying to kill him. In fact, he ends up helping and sheltering her
not only after that, but after she attacked his friends/family, and tortured one of them. To have the hero go out for vengeance because of an S.O. does not look good.
But alas...perception, blah blah blah.
disappointed.
<-<3's Jane.
Nmcil, that is terrible. Your question is borderline crazy, huh? Well, considering the commenters probably think where the story is headed is fantastic, well, do
you really trust their judgment? I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you.
It's funny because, even Angel, the wronged party in that situation, didn't get up in arms over Faith trying to kill him. In fact, he ends up helping and sheltering her
not only after that, but after she attacked his friends/family, and tortured one of them. To have the hero go out for vengeance because of an S.O. does not look good.
But alas...perception, blah blah blah.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Haven't you guys heard? Buffy can do no wrong. She can even murder someone (the only reason that she didn't finish Faith off was because Faith fell out of that window, thus she is still a murderer) and it's perfectly justified, because she's Buffy. Again, because she's Buffy, and thus it is unthinkable to question her morals (despite the fact they suck beyond all measure). Clearly questioning that universal truth is a terrible thing, so shame on you Nmcil- clearly you're insane.
Don't mind me...I'm in a very sarcastic mood. Thinking about the comics tends to do this to me.
Don't mind me...I'm in a very sarcastic mood. Thinking about the comics tends to do this to me.
~ Niori ~
Apr 06 2010 06:50 pm #382Guest
Guest
@nmcil - did someone make that crazy reply to your point about killing Faith at the Whedonesque board? Because if so, wow, and oh, no! I always hope for more rationality there. There are a couple of Bangel crazies but there's usually more nuanced discussion.
Apr 06 2010 06:53 pm #383annajane
Guest
Whoops, that was me, just above (not a writer, but a frequently delighted reader here).
Think I was doing some reading over at the Buffy Forum - I had really not wanted to get into the Shipper discussion - but I kept reading and getting more confused and then piss off with all the "selective points" offered as evidence without connecting to the entirety of the series and arcs. I was being very polite and presented my question regarding the moral and ethical questions as serious points for discussing, not at all in the POV of taking sides for either relationship.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
excerpt from some of the Issue #34 Preview Read from Buffyfest: Can't even begin to think about what this all means - I can only speak for myself - but I am really feeling broken hearted right now for the Spuffy relationship - and I feel like a great big fool of a viewer for having put any faith in what was presented in the Buffy-Spike relationship. The DarkHorse PR people certainly know their business with all stirring up of the fan base -
Bitsy's take:
What to say, really, without giving it away? I don't even think the issue can be fully processed on a single read. What's interesting is that a lot of things get explained but I still don't have a clue what's going on or why. There are so many layers to this story and the scope is so big that, the more you know, the more you don't. I feel like Brad's arc is saying "Hey, everybody? You're totally screwed. I've got to go but, here, I'll let Joss explain to you just exactly how screwed you really are." Oh, and one other thing: Buffy? I guess she's done baking because her and Angel are making cookies like there's no tomorrow. By the way: it's possible that there actually is no tomorrow.
Bitsy's take:
What to say, really, without giving it away? I don't even think the issue can be fully processed on a single read. What's interesting is that a lot of things get explained but I still don't have a clue what's going on or why. There are so many layers to this story and the scope is so big that, the more you know, the more you don't. I feel like Brad's arc is saying "Hey, everybody? You're totally screwed. I've got to go but, here, I'll let Joss explain to you just exactly how screwed you really are." Oh, and one other thing: Buffy? I guess she's done baking because her and Angel are making cookies like there's no tomorrow. By the way: it's possible that there actually is no tomorrow.
Tara's take:
Michelle's birthday has become all of our birthday because I read it too and whoa-oah! This issue is Cra-a-azy! To quote Ryan "JOSS!" ::with fists in the air:: What can I say without SAYING it? Well, issue #34 definitely over the top in a way that only a comic could be (or I guess a blockbuster movie with a huge effects/costume/actor budget.) My mouth was open the entire time. It's totally and completely shocking, in more ways than one.
I'm not going to even pretend to gauge fan reaction to this one. Nope, not me! I can't even deal. I'll be over here assuming crash position...with popcorn, of course
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
Michelle's take:
Scott Allie just gave me the bestest birthday present ever - Buffy Issue #34, two days early. That's right people, I've read it and wow, I'm just...wow. I've read some speculation on fan sites today and all I keep screaming in my head is, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA!" I'm not going to spoil anything, but suffice it to say that this issue is filled with lots and lots of information and lots and lots of...well, everything! If you're looking for Buffy and Buffy to move in a different direction then I'd say this issue is for you. If you're an extreme shipper on any side of the fence, I'd say, hold onto your hats for this one. The art is fantastic and the issue is choc full of lore. Every issue since #32 has had me jonesing for the next and this one's no exception. If I had money in internet stock right now, I'd sell because I'm pretty sure the internets might explode tomorrow.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 07 2010 06:30 pm #386coalitiongirl
Hm...no synopsis yet, but I've been haunting Whedonesque and spotted this comment. It doesn't make everything better, but at least Spike's finally been acknowledged (and I'm not sure if I'm annoyed or amused that they've decided to use Andrew as the Spuffy fans' avatar in the comics).
The readers have a sneak peak into the future. It's one little box of an over head camera shot of Buffy and Spike, in fighting stance, waiting to pummel... a shadow of something big with horns, with a voice over "SOON."
He also makes another appearance, next to Angel with the caption of "Think of Buffy's truest loves."
And for the shippers who might be a little upset, Andrew (captain of Team Spike), catching a glimpse of them, says a line in a way I would have loved to hear Tom Lenk say it: "Was that them? (Please don't tell me that was them.) It's ruining everything for me."
But I'll leave the rest of the story to be analysed by the pros, as I usually count on them to make sense of everything.
The readers have a sneak peak into the future. It's one little box of an over head camera shot of Buffy and Spike, in fighting stance, waiting to pummel... a shadow of something big with horns, with a voice over "SOON."
He also makes another appearance, next to Angel with the caption of "Think of Buffy's truest loves."
And for the shippers who might be a little upset, Andrew (captain of Team Spike), catching a glimpse of them, says a line in a way I would have loved to hear Tom Lenk say it: "Was that them? (Please don't tell me that was them.) It's ruining everything for me."
But I'll leave the rest of the story to be analysed by the pros, as I usually count on them to make sense of everything.
I am off to get my copy from the lovely people at my comic book store - One very nice thing that I got from all this, is meeting these nice guys and one girl - they do special orders and pull copies for me for every issue. I am going to hate not having that nice connection if I give up on the Buffyverse and Angelverse comics. I will probably keep looking and buying comics solely based on the artwork - which is how I first became interested in this genre. There was a comic book store across the street from where I had my art gallery and I went into the shop and was blown away by the artwork.
I will post some good scans later tonight -
I will post some good scans later tonight -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 08 2010 12:32 am #388Sam
Guest
Thanks Nmcil, looking foward to it. The 2 Spike pictures are what interest me the most. I'm wondering now how explicit are the sexscenes, i doubt they will show any genitalia.
I was reading maggie's review over on lj earlier and she said it was pretty hard core. Page after page of Blight sex..in all positions. *blegh* The body part was Buffy's breasts, and a close up that could be a close up on the cunnilingus but hard to tell. No Twangel penis (thank the lord) but no doubt as to where the penis is. The good thing is Willow mentioning Spike as one of Buffy's true loves and that the Spike scene is sometime in the future fighting side by side. I love me some Spuffy fighting together. Buffy also never tells Twangel she missed him or says I love you. It's all with the lusty sex talk. so that's good I guess. And the Blight sex is making for all kinds of badness...dimensions opening up, hurricanes, weather changes, demons pouring in..you know apocolyptic stuff. So Blight sex is basically bringing the world to a crappy, horrible end. At least our ship only brought down a house. And they end up in some paradise dimension called Twilight, but it seems at the end Buffy is snapping out of it. Let's hope.
And silly us, when Joss said it would be 3 straight issues of porn we thought he was joking. Turns out it was the truth. I guess that means there'll be more Blight sex in # 35? Oh god...
So Blight! Sex! Day is over, let's hope for better things in the next issue.
Buffy also never tells Twangel she missed him or says I love you. It's all with the lusty sex talk. so that's good I guess. And the Blight sex is making for all kinds of badness...dimensions opening up, hurricanes, weather changes, demons pouring in..you know apocolyptic stuff. So Blight sex is basically bringing the world to a crappy, horrible end. At least our ship only brought down a house. And they end up in some paradise dimension called Twilight, but it seems at the end Buffy is snapping out of it. Let's hope. And silly us, when Joss said it would be 3 straight issues of porn we thought he was joking. Turns out it was the truth. I guess that means there'll be more Blight sex in # 35? Oh god...
So Blight! Sex! Day is over, let's hope for better things in the next issue.
Apr 08 2010 01:48 am #390coalitiongirl
I'm sinking into apathy already, now that I've gotten a hold of the script:
Here for exposition, and Here for the sex, if you're interested. That second one is written by a Bangel fan, but she's pretty fair about it. I don't know, it's all become too far-fetched for me. This is the point in any fanfiction in which I stop reading and wait for it to be finished before continuing, and the only reason why I'll keep up with it is because it makes the fandom explode a bit, which is always a good thing. I'm going back to the shows now, because they're the Buffy I love, and it never needing to resort to yellow journalism (yellow comic-writing? ) to gain fans. Enough sensationalism, Joss. No need to be controversial. Please, just tell us a good story.
Here for exposition, and Here for the sex, if you're interested. That second one is written by a Bangel fan, but she's pretty fair about it. I don't know, it's all become too far-fetched for me. This is the point in any fanfiction in which I stop reading and wait for it to be finished before continuing, and the only reason why I'll keep up with it is because it makes the fandom explode a bit, which is always a good thing.
I'm going back to the shows now, because they're the Buffy I love, and it never needing to resort to yellow journalism (yellow comic-writing? ) to gain fans. Enough sensationalism, Joss. No need to be controversial. Please, just tell us a good story. Apr 08 2010 06:31 am #391Scarlet Ibis
I just want to say that for me, it's not about Bangel trumping Spuffy or whatever, but simply ruining story and the bastardization of one of my fave characters.
And three issues of comic porn. Boy howdy.
And three issues of comic porn. Boy howdy.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I felt like I was being asked to leave my logic at the front door - Maybe I'm just really dumb and clueless, but this story seems like total nonsense to me.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2010 03:52 am #393Spikez_tart
So Blight sex is basically bringing the world to a crappy, horrible end. - So there's something to live for after all! The world will end and we won't have to see any more Blight.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 09 2010 04:04 am #394coalitiongirl
There must be some reason for all this- because there's no way so many people would contribute to something this absurd unless the fallout is going to be epic. Nobody's THAT stupid.
Apr 09 2010 04:39 am #395Scarlet Ibis
"Nobody's THAT stupid"
Don't be so sure.
Went to the comic book store and paged through the porn comic. Yeah--Joss has not only pwned the audience, but himself as well. I feel that in an absurd sort of way, he should get major kudos for that.
Don't be so sure.
Went to the comic book store and paged through the porn comic. Yeah--Joss has not only pwned the audience, but himself as well. I feel that in an absurd sort of way, he should get major kudos for that.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
There are lots of readers thinking that Joss Whedon and DarkHorse are having a nice big laugh at the expense of the fans - For sure there is a lot of "shipper mocking" in this issue - must be great to feel that you have your fan base so securely in hand that you can make fun of them right on the page. Wait to they find out that if they keep going in this direction, they are going to lose a bunch of those paying fans. I usually buy both covers and If I really like the Jo Chen cover, will buy an extra just to keep the artwork clean. This issue and all the rest I will buy one - that's it.
I do have to say that Jeanty did some nice work with some of the Buffy close ups - but I mean did we really have to see Angel eating Buffy Cookies? to me that is just crude and without any class. Did they really think this was going to appeal to the readers - unless you are needing to see your Bangel love be right in your face, or want to see your Buffy sexual fantasy made page flesh - I think that a lot of people don't find this of any particular addition to the story. It certainly did nothing but lower my opinion of what this company and Joss Whedon are doing with these characters.
I do have to say that Jeanty did some nice work with some of the Buffy close ups - but I mean did we really have to see Angel eating Buffy Cookies? to me that is just crude and without any class. Did they really think this was going to appeal to the readers - unless you are needing to see your Bangel love be right in your face, or want to see your Buffy sexual fantasy made page flesh - I think that a lot of people don't find this of any particular addition to the story. It certainly did nothing but lower my opinion of what this company and Joss Whedon are doing with these characters.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
:-P
:love
:wah:
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:drugs:
:um:
:getwriting:
:tsk:
:buhbye:
:coffeelove:
:eatme:
:smooch:
:kiss:
:heartfic:
:shrug:
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:drink:
:goodevil:
:what:
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:hyper:
:lol:
:reading:
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:up:
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:hurl:
:wave:
:vampire:
:moon:
:D
:boohoo:
:tongue:
:shake:
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:happy:
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:)
:wazzup:
:right:
:insane:
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:poke:
:stalker:
:taped:
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:throughpc:
:fic:
:halo:
:help:
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:bday:
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:bow:
:wall:
:spank:
:butthead:
:hair:
:suck:
:get:
:spuffy:
:soon:
:vamps:
;-)
;)
:-(
:P
:O
:-O
:-D
:blush:
:-)
:cheer:
:sleep:
:pigsfly: