BSV Forum - Writing - Canon

Master Vampires

Feb 04 2007 03:48 am   #1Verity Watson
So ... I'm baffled. I have this idea in my head that the only vampire on BtVS to be referred to as "master" was The Master in S1. But I read "master vampire" in lots of fic. What does it mean, and does a vampire have to go earn it - like qualifying to run the Boston Marathon - or does it just signify age, like those "20 years of service" pins they give the administrative staff at my office? Any thoughts would be so appreciated - I've Googled the term to death, but mostly turn up references to Buffy S1.
You know I've been a good girl, but I hit a limit. ~ Poe
Feb 04 2007 03:51 am   #2Caro Mio

Okay, you are a Master if a) you are the head of a clan, b) have lived to at least 100 years old and run a bunch of minions/have children, c) have killed at least one Slayer. Any one or all of those qualifies you as a Master. Spike was said to become the youngest Master on record when he killed a Slayer at only 20 years of being a vampire. Reputation can also earn you the title of Master if you are extra evil, creative, etc.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Feb 04 2007 03:55 am   #3Diabola

Fanon. Prolly imported from some vampire novel or RPG. I think a lot of fans need something to be able to distinguish vamps with a brain, like Spike and Angelus, from the rabble Buffy stakes every nighth in the cemetry. Same with the childer/minion thing. I mean, why does there have to be a difference from the beginning? A human who becomes a servant starts out exactly the same way as one who ends up owning a big company - why should it be different with vamps. Most fans seem to like it though, so there you go. (Not a big fan of most things fanon as you can probably tell. :lol: )

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Feb 04 2007 04:01 am   #4Always_jbj

The term 'Master vampire' has no basis in canon...it is a purely fanon thing and what is required to be a 'master' is open to interpretation just as much as any non-canon thing such as claiming etc.

Which doesn't mean to say I think it is a bad thing...have used it myself many times... there is nothing wrong with non-canon things in stories and as they are non-canon you are free to put whatever spin on them you want.

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Feb 04 2007 04:05 am   #5Caro Mio

I do seem to recall Spike being listed as a Master (at a young age because of killing the Chinese Slayer,) in canon, though, as I remember thinking of him as a Master before I started reading fanfic......on one of the shows.....

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Feb 04 2007 04:22 am   #6Verity Watson
Alright, then. I'm confused because there's no right answer, and that's strangely reassuring. Thanks to all! ;)
You know I've been a good girl, but I hit a limit. ~ Poe
Feb 04 2007 04:27 am   #7slaymesoftly

I'm confused because there's no right answer  You'll find that's true of almost everything in the Buffyverse - even canon stuff. Joss and his writers "jossed" themselves all the time.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 04 2007 06:30 am   #8Immortal Beloved

The term master vampire is strictly fanon, at least where BtVS is concerned.  The Anita Blake series use the term master vampire as part of it's canon, so maybe it leaked into the BtVS fandom.  The Master is the only vampire referred to as a master in BtVS canon.  Although, I suppose any vampire in charge (e.g., Spike, Angelus, Dracula) of other vamps could be called masters simply because they have minions, if not because of a specific term.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Feb 04 2007 06:23 pm   #9Spikez_tart

I think you have to calculate the age factor in, too.  If you say that any one with minions is a Master, then Harmony would be a master, since she has minions.  As far as the rest, make it up to suit your story. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 04 2007 06:48 pm   #10Diabola

*grumbles* Ok, you wana claim canon for "Master" vampires? PROVE IT! I think Verity's question made it pretty clear that she wants to know the Jossverse definition for "Master" vampire, not a made up one. As far as I'm aware (and several people seem to agree) there is no such thing in the Jossverse. If you can bring quotes of someone being called a Matser vampire, and quotes of someone explaining the term in the show, then we can talk. But unless you do that, stop confusing people. You want to explain what you believe the term means? Fine, but make it clear that those definitions have nothing to do with the show.

Sorry if this came over a bit harsh, I just think it's really not fair to throw fanon-definitions at someone who asked about canon. And if there is a debate on whether something is fanon or canon, then the ones who say canon have to back up their claim.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Feb 04 2007 07:09 pm   #11slaymesoftly

*pokes grouchy Dia and runs*  

Dia has a very good point, though.  Canon can only be what is specifically stated somewhere in the show's transcripts (or what you can find after carefully watching the dvd several times). Unfortunately for us, canon in the show changed sometimes to suit their storylines...

Fanon can come from anywhere - usually it's a made-up "fact" of some sort that a well-known or widely-read author has used and lots of other people liked it and adopted it, added to it, twisted it - whatever.  It has no basis in canon fact. (Of course, nothing about vampires has any basis in actual fact - but that's another whole rant. lol)

My opinion? If you need to write something a particular way for your story, go for it.  Just be aware that when you mess too much with canon facts, you will get chastized for it ocassionally, and you'd better be able to make it believable. Anything except a realistic "between the lines" fic is by definition off-canon.  If Joss didn't write it, then it isn't canon.  However, in order for our favorite characters to be recognizable as the people we met on the show, it is best to adhere to canon as much as is possible within the parameters of your story.  It is pointless to mess with who sired whom, or when Spike was turned, or when Buffy was called, etc if changing those things is not necessary for the story you are writing.

As far as things like master vampires, claiming and other widely-accepted fanon facts, it is probably best to identify what seems to be the most commonly accepted definition (or definitions) unless you have some good reason to invent your own definition.  If you do, then invent it. If you don't, pick the definition that you like and use that one. :) 

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 04 2007 07:37 pm   #12Diabola

*blushes* That did come over rather grouchy, didn't it? Sorry about that. What Patti says is correct, and I did in no way mean that you shouldn't use fanon or even make up your own rules for something. But it isn't fair to bring fanon into play when someone asks "Did this thing exist in the Jossverse?".

No one is saying that you can't use fanon definitions for your story, hell, you can even believe in them if you want to. But no matter how widely spread they are, giving them (without a warning that you're talking fanon) to someone who asks about canon, is confusing and misleading. 

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Feb 04 2007 11:46 pm   #13slaymesoftly

Hee! I was just poking fun at you, Dia.  Your point is a very good one.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 05 2007 01:03 am   #14Verity Watson
* Running for cover* Right - didn't mean to start a fight, er ... heated debate. Am now assuming permission to do anything with my Spike character, short of making him an accountant or a hiphop artist.
You know I've been a good girl, but I hit a limit. ~ Poe
Feb 05 2007 06:27 am   #15The Space Between

 Am now assuming permission to do anything with my Spike character, short of making him an accountant or a hiphop artist

HA! Picturing Spike done up in streetwear and rapping just sent me into a fit of hysterics. Just trying to even picture him in a ballcap is difficult...even trying to think of him as one of the lost Beastie Boys is just not working...

*hee*

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 10 2007 08:49 am   #16Scarlet Ibis

I think there is a differentiation as to who's a Master and who's not.  Minions, when they're sired, they're not given as much blood or something like that.  On Angel in "Why We Fight," we learn that the guy Angel turned, well, turns out he only turned him "just enough" so he'd be a member of the undead, but nothing more.  When Darla sired Liam, she wanted him to be her mate and equal.  Same with Drusilla- they didn't skimp out on the blood giving or what have you.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 11 2007 01:32 am   #17Spikez_tart

The only reference I remember in Buffy that comes faintly close to the "master" business is in School Hard where Spike shows up, Giles figures out who he is:

Giles:  Our new friend Spike. He's known as 'William the Bloody'. Earned
his nickname by torturing his victims with railroad spikes. Very
pleasant. Well, here's some good news: he's barely two hundred. He's not
even as old as Angel is.

Of course, Spike himself later says he's only 126, but hey who's counting.  Anyway, there's an implication that Spike is still somewhat of a baby vampire and not as strong or dangerous as Angel. 

There are Masters in a lot of published fiction, perhaps that's where it comes from.  I still haven't seen all of Angel yet, but I haven't heard anything there either. 

 

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 11 2007 04:18 am   #18Always_jbj
On Angel in "Why We Fight," we learn that the guy Angel turned, well, turns out he only turned him "just enough" so he'd be a member of the undead, but nothing more.

 

Actually that comment was in reference to Angel's soul...not to how much blood he was given.

LAWSON
(looking up at Angel while getting to his feet)
You gave me just enough, didn't you? Enough of your soul to keep me
trapped between who I was and who I should be. I'm nothin'... because
of you.

The Master, childe, minion stuff is purely fanon.

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Feb 11 2007 11:10 am   #19GoldenBuffy

rofl, can you picture spike the vamo eminem. i'm giggling rom the mental image.

and about what lawson said, how could angel pass on his soul?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 11 2007 11:35 am   #20Always_jbj
about what lawson said, how could angel pass on his soul?

 

I have no idea... it seems incredibly silly to me...but that is what they were discussing...that Lawson was the only one Angel had turned while he had a soul and Lawson asked him if he had a soul too...Angel said he didn't think it worked that way and then Lawson made that comment about Angel giving him just enough of his soul to keep him trapped....

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Feb 11 2007 12:36 pm   #21Dihcar

"Anyway, there's an implication that Spike is still somewhat of a baby vampire and not as strong or dangerous as Angel. "

I disagree, at first he seems to imply that Spike isn't as dangerous because of his age.  Up until that point vampires were judged on how lethal,strong they were by their age.  Spike is yet again the enigma of the verse.  He is one of the best fighters and he became like that because he trained,used his powers alot.  Unlike other vamps that only use the strength,power given to them by age.

And Giles really considers Spike a threat after he realizes that he has faced and killed slayers in fair combat.  Spike to me has always seemed more like a battle-brand vampire, or a warrior-vampire.

Spike/Fray=The future

 Closed