I talked briefly within someone else on another forum about this topic, but I was curious as to what were people's thoughts as officially identifying the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red" as the attempted rape scene?  I mean that in the sense, had Spike been successful, it would have been rape, however, I do not feel that that was his intent (because of the abusive relationship that Buffy started).  He seemed shocked himself once he realized what was going on (when she kicked him). Buffy being injured, I think if he really wanted to, he could have...

Thoughts and comments- "all are welcome."

I don't think he meant to rape her. That might have been whate everyone else thought, but not Spike. With Buffy, the only way he got her to show any emotion was if they were having sex. When they had sex, she let her guard down. He figured if they had sex again, it would make her realise that she needed him and loved him.

The look on his face after he realised what he did, and the scenes after that were completely heart breaking. He did realise that he crossed a line, and that he DID almost rape her, but that was DEFINATLY not his intention toward Buffy.

I think it was the writers trying to kill fan support for the Spike/Buffy relationship.  They'd dug a hole by  making their verse too "gray" and Spike too sympathetic...so what is the thing you do to enrage the female fans and make them withdraw their support?

Attempted rape of course.

But the fans didn't buy it.  Because we'd watched the entire show up to that point.

I agree with you, Zoe...

it was a weak, thrown-together plot device to undo writing mistakes made during the season (though i have to say i like most of the results of those writing mistakes ;P)

personally, i feel like it was definitely an attempted rape -- because regardless of the motivations, had spike been successful, the result would have been the same regardless of his intentions...she was fighting and clearly telling him no the entire time, and did *not* want it!!!

HOWEVER....

their entire relationship was built on unhealthy dynamics from the beginning...buffy was consistently violent with spike...consistently told him no and then proceeded to let her actions say "yes"...and even on one occasion *herself* persisted in sexual activity after *Spike* had said no! (see episode "Gone")

now admittedly, that scene is nowhere near as disturbing as the A/R scene, in fact it's played off as humor...but if the roles had been reversed i guarantee feminists would have been up in arms against spike for turning the slayer's own body against her when she'd already *said no*!

all i'm saying is...the poor guy didn't have much in the way of healthy examples to go on, in trying to figure out what was acceptable and what was not...yes, it was an attempted rape...but i'm not sure spike would have been as culpable for it as your average human male....

If they'd used the scene as Spike finally deciding to go full-bore evil again, then it would have worked and the fans would have been on Buffy's side......but he didn't. The most damning evidence to him in that scene is when he says "I'm going to make you feel it." It's the "make" that makes you wonder, just a bit, what Spike was thinking in his temporary insanity. He also flipped her onto her stomach so she'd have less control to fight back. It really doesn't look good.....

but

The way he was before the attempted kiss, and right after she kicked him off and he looked at her.....well, James' face is just too expressive to ever make us believe that it was Spike's intention to hurt her, let alone rape her. It's also hard for us to believe the scene, as Spike fans, because he suddenly goes from trying to talk and reason and apologize, to crazed and desperate.......when he'd never EVER been that out of control around Buffy before. All the times they faught, all they times she'd pissed him off, he'd never for one second looked like his brain had just checked out to no-where land . Spike was *always* thinking....always perceptive, in everything he did.

I'd understand getting into another verbal fight with Buffy there in the bathroom. I'd even get another fist exchange, because hey, been there, done that. But she wasn't any more unreceptive than any of the other times she'd told him to go away, etc. The hardest part to believe in that scene, is why Spike felt that this specific moment was where he HAD to get a full confession out of her. She's already admitted that she has "feelings", so really...he can come back and talk to her another day, and another...just like always.

Well.....to quote Jane Espenson, "We really did make it too hard on ourselves for Spike to get the soul."  (I don't think I got it exactly right, but that's the gist of what she said.)

Caro Mio

Again, I don't think he meant it. It wasn't as if Spike came to Buffy with the intetnion of raping her. He just wanted to talk. I agree the whole time Buffy did nothing but send mix signles, so how would that night be any diffrent.

Another thing I didn't buy. Spike's a vampire, he should have been able to smell Buffy's injery. Also, he loves her, why didn't he notice she was hurt? Over sight on the writer's part.

When he said he was going to make Buffy feel it, truthfully I though he meant he was going to make her feel the love. Shows how my brain works, lol. When he tried to kiss her my heart broke. I wasn't even all up in arms when they were fighting, and I never even noticed him trying to flip her over on her stomache. Me, personally don't have a problem with that. *cough* cough* But were they trying to say he didn't want to watcher her and take her power away like that? Huh, what ever.

Maybe Buffy's rejection of him for like what? The billionth time finally sent Spiek over the edge for a moment. And that's why he acted out. I don't know. All I know is after she kicked him, he looked sick. I still don't fit with the idea of him leaving to get his soul. I think Spike was good without it, and getting the soul was only  a saftey net for Buffy to accept him. Which again in my opnion show's that she doesn't deserve Spike. Buffy needs that stupid soul for her to love him. Hell, look where it got Angel.

I prefer to think of it as an almost rape rather than an attempted rape.  It's true that if Buffy hadn't stopped him, the result would have been rape.  But to say it's "attempted" is to suggest something like Spike was consciously thinking he could force Buffy to have sex against her will -- which is hard to imagine since he'd (reasonably) expect that she'd use violence to stop him (which in fact she did).  I think the scene shows him as getting caught up in something, and not realizing what he's doing.

For me the weakness of the writing is the depiction of Buffy as temporarily weak and pleading, rather than presenting her the way she would normally act -- which is to kick him off right away and then punch him back into the pavement.  When Xander tried to rape her in The Pack, we don't see anything like a weak victimish reaction from Buffy.  Yeah, in SR she's supposed to have been injured -- but not too injured to finally throw him off, and not too injured to go back out for a big fight with Warren.  The sudden attempt by the writers to present Buffy as a victim seemed to me like a lame attempt to undo the fact that they had just finished writing a whole season in which Buffy played the typically male role in an abusive and unhealthy relationship.  Bleck.

Even so, taken as is, Spike gets credit for immediately taking responsibility for what he did and doing something about it.  He never once tries to shift the blame -- even though in this case there are plenty of ways he could have tried to do that -- i.e. by pointing out (truthfully) that Buffy had played a huge role in building the violent and ugly relationship that culminated in the bathroom scene.  As Whistler says in Becoming, it's not the big moments that define us -- it's what we do with them that matters.

Maggie

Very true, Maggie. Using "almost" is perfect as a description there.

Yeah, Buffy only had a sore back. She'd relax in the warm water and be fine. Yeah, she was tired, but definitely not too tired to fight off Spike, so I agree about that ringing false, as well. Why would she suddenly think she didn't have the power over him? Were we supposed to believe that her feelings made her more vulnerable to Spike in that moment than if it had been another man?

GB - He did notice she was hurt, when he first was standing in the bathroom doorway. He saw that she was moving stiffly and groaning as she moved to adjust the taps on the bath.

Yeah, he meant "make her feel the love", but the language doesn't sound good to outside ears, does it? And the "make" definitely got Buffy's hackles up.

CM

in my eyes Spike was doing what he always did trying to make Buffy takes notice. So sorry sorry guys but I think it was attention seeking the only way Spike knows how....

I change my mind every time I think about it.  He comes in just to talk to her, no he didn't start out wanting to hurt her, yes their entire relationship involved hurting each other physically, yes Spike's immature and Buffy frequently pushes him into to doing violent things, and maybe this time, she shoves him right over the edge  Yes Spike knows that she's hurt because she tells him so. 

The motivation is totally mixed up and I think JW intended it to be so he could have Spike drive off to Africa on his motorcycle and have the fans think he's going to get his chip out and come back and kill Buffy.

The more interesting part of the scene (for me anyway) is how Spike first comes into the bathroom and makes a sincere and mature apology to Buffy for having sex with Anya.  He's calm, in control and doesn't let Buffy run roughshod over him.  Contrast with the scene where Spike, holding a box of mashed up candy, apologizes to his Buffy mannequin for snitching out Riley having his blood sucked.  Spike keeps getting mad (at himself) for hurting Buffy and blowing his chances, and shows it by having a big tantrum, blaming it on Buffy, accusing her of being petty (and she isn't even there) and smacking around the mannequin.  That's Joss, et al, at his/their best.

On a happy note, I just checked and allaboutspike.com is still up.  Not active of course, but the Spikey goodness is still there.

Just wanted to say that Spike didn't turn her over onto her stomach, but Buffy turned herself over, trying to scramble away. Spike is the one who turns her back around.  And he did mean feel "love" for him- he says, "You can feel it again," and I took that as he felt that she didn't feel that anymore cause of the whole Anya thing, and that those feelings could return. 

Also, Caro Mia in another thread that Spike was fully content to minding his own business, wallowing, until Dawn came over and said that Buffy was actually hurt by the whole thing.  He went to check on her and her feelings...

The only time Buffy was ever tender with Spike was during sexual encounters- it was the only way for him to get close to her.  But even then, she still wouldn't let him get too close.  In "As You Were," after they were intimate, they're laying down, lightly sleeping, and Spike is turned towards her, and I found it so odd that he didn't, or perhaps couldn't, have his arm draped across her.  I still feel as if between the two, that Buffy ultimately was the villain in that relationship throughout the duration of season six.  Also, at the end of the bathroom scene:

BUFFY:Ask me again why I could never love you.

Spike looks like he's just realizing what he was doing.

SPIKE: Buffy, my god, I didn't-
BUFFY: (angrily) Because I stopped you. (quieter) Something I should have done a long time ago.

WTF?  Did he attempt to force himself on her before, cause if memory serves, she was usually the one doing the jumping- literally.

DoS I actually found that scene in "Gone" pretty disturbing because it seems to reflect some sexist attitudes in our culture.  It's like in this extreme trying to NOT be misogynistic sometimes it goes the other way.  If someone says no, and they aren't playing sex games with safewords, it means NO.  It doesn't matter if they are male or female.

And you're right, if he had gone down on her but she hadn't wanted it and he'd done it anyway, no matter how much she liked it in the end, people would be APPALLED.  But apparently the idea is "Men always want it"  Isn't that idea just as completely offensive as: "Well, she was wearing that tight skirt..."

Yeah Caro, it really IS a bizarre scene and completely out of character with anything Spike would do, no matter how hurt.  He would just keep chipping away at her.  Taunting, teasing, fighting.  But he noticed she was hurt, there is no way in hell he would start anything like that if she was hurt.   He might have later tried to smack the snot out of her, but he would have done it when she could have fought back.

And he never needed the soul.  The writers were just too scare to follow through with the gray they'd created.  They didn't have the courage of conviction to continue on with the "but spike's different" concept.  The soul was cheap and lame and honestly I hate stories where he has or gets his soul.  The fact that when he got it, he was still basically the same Spike, says a lot.  There wasn't much "Better" for him to go.

Exactly Maggie!  Casting Buffy as the victim was an attempt to shine the light away from the real abuser in the relationship.  It had been Buffy all season.  She'd beaten him bloody and left him in an alley, verbally and emotionally abused him, and if we want to talk about "Gone" in some sense sexually abused him (though her using him for sex like she did is also abuse).  And suddenly ONE moment in a bathroom that comes off completely OOC for BOTH characters is supposed to make us go: "Awwww poor buffy, she was right about that nasty spike."  Whatever.  To me, these kinds of moments on the show just made me think the writers thought the viewers were morons.

I'd just looked up the transcript for the episode for my recent one-shot, so the scene/thoughts are fresh in mind again. On the turning to her stomach, the transcript I read had it as Spike flipping her over, but I haven't watched it in a long time.........thanks for the correction.

I never have thought that the soul is cheap or lame since Spike was proud that he'd accomplished it. Maybe he needed it in the end, maybe he didn't......but if he had gone on in the way he had, with no one encouraging/supporting how to be a better man and make the right choices, I think he eventually would have screwed up in some way that would make him feel guilty/remorseful....even if others weren't as hard on him for it. And he does obviously feel things more after he got the soul, and that isn't a bad thing. I'm proud of the man Spike is with his soul, and I liked him before without it. It's just the evolution of him.

Now, it is true that they refused to make him "good enough" without the soul because it would undermine Angel's choices. Three of the writers admitted this just in September at a con., though they also seemed to be a bit regretful that they were stuck in that position because of what had been set up with Angel from the beginning. If Joss had given the word to go, then things would have been different. It wasn't so much a "courage" thing, as a specific decision to keep Angel "special", because he came first. So, if Spike had been first, we probably would have gotten the same treatment to Angel! LOL - whatever, since there's no changing canon....

Caro Mio

I like the getting of the soul.  It's obviously true that Spike didn't need the soul in order to love or to be able to sacrifice himself or even to decide to try to be good.  But I'm willing to believe that a soul helps one suss out better what good actually entails -- sort of a better map.  Plus probably more ability to empathize with others. 

What I don't get is how the writers thought any of this kept Angel special.  Once Spike chose to get a soul, Angel looks even lamer than he already did since he just got cursed with his.  Because of the curse, Angel is always divided against himself, in a way that Spike isn't, since it's the demon that went and got the soul.  Thus, we see Angel -- with a soul -- struggle with moral ambiguity in a way that souled-up Spike doesn't.  It's Angel who lets all the lawyers get munched, who contracts with an evil law firm in order to perform a massive memory wipe on his dearest 'friends, who kills an innocent person in order to launch a battle that cannot possibly be won in order to prevent the world from going on pretty much like it always does.  Spike's soul just makes it that much more obvious that he's special in a way that Angel is not. 

Maggie

*Yeah, he meant "make her feel the love", but the language doesn't sound good to outside ears, does it?*

I was totally clueless then, lol. It didn't sent any warning bells to me. Sometimes I just wonder around above the clouds, so if something goes over my head, don't mind me.

Angel is only special in the since that he was the first vamp to get cursed with a soul. Spike's demon went at got his. And didnt he rub that in Angel's face once? But I'm still with the firm belief the Spike did not need that soul. I mean just because one has a soul doesn't mean they will make all the right choices. Look at Dahmer (sp?) he ate ppl, Ed what's his face, he killed women and made a female body suite and danced naked under the moon light. Hitler killed thousands, Usama started Al Qeada. They all have/had souls and they still did worng, even with the teaching they had growing up.

IMO, Spike did way better than them on his own even while getting abused by Buffy. So the writter's *ucked up on that issue. Souled and unslouled Spike were the same.

I don't think the soul is lame for spike as a character.  I think it was a lame attempt on the writer's part to keep the black and white morality they wanted to have on that show. 

I think it says a lot that not only can Buffy not love spike without a soul, the audience isn't supposed to either.

Technically, Spike getting a soul surpasses black and white morality- what normal, self respecting demon would do that?  Spike was atypical from point one.  Him getting his soul, friendly demon kitten eaters like Clem- they were the gray of that show.  And when Buffy said "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike," was that not in reference to s6?  I just assumed it was- I dunno.

Yup. I assumed that too. She really did love him. Well at least she thought she did, no jusk kidding.

I didn't mean Spike having a soul is lame (did I say that?) I ment the reason he went to get it was lame. He shouldn't have had to obtain a soul for the girl to love him. Buffy already knew he was nothing like Angel or Angelus and for her to hold that over him was childesh.

I'm not sure that his motivation for getting the soul was for Buffy to love him.  I think it was a very Spike thing to do.  It was like "Yeah, bitch, you're better than me? Really?"  Hell I think he even said: "Bitch thinks she's better than me."

Sure, he was sorry about what he did and it acted as a catalyst, and sure he wanted Buffy to love him, but at the end of the day I think he went to get the soul just so he could say: "Yeah? What now?"

And Also Scarlet, I realize that Spike getting the soul isn't black and white morality, but it DOES make it "okay" from the black and white morality that was often used on the show, to like him.  Because Soul = good.  As long as he gets one, no matter how, it's that he has one.

Of course, despite this, he still didn't rate the same respect as Angel did from the scoobies apparently.  Even though Spike fought and won for his soul and Angel was cursed and re-cursed with his.

Yea, I agree Zoe- Spike getting his soul was like a "what now, bitches?' kinda moment.  And I think... by choosing to get his soul the way he did, that it made it still in the gray area, and it would've been in the split black/white had he just approached Willow and demand that she curse him.  Or wait a minute- how did he even know that there was a legend where a vamp turning over a new leaf could get a soul?  Had he thought about it before?  Oh boy...

Well, a demon who'll grant you anything you want as long as you meet his price is probably a well known story in the demon world. I have a feeling Lurky was very old.

Yeah, Zoe, he did say that. And yeah, I'm sure that was part of him owning that soul......You give Spike a goal, and he'll out-class anybody. They couldn't stick him with that caveat Angel had of a shaky curse, so the only thing that made him different from them was that he still housed a demon, too. Take away the need for blood and the sunlight issue, and you have a male Slayer. As for his motivation, he knew he wouldn't be able to stay away forever, so getting the soul was the only way for him to ever have a possible chance of being in Sunnydale again without getting staked. And, well, it's all in his speech in the church in BY...

Oh, yeah, Buffy was childish...and a big fat coward.

CM

I guess it was a Spike kinda thing to do. And he did say that. The Scoobies as well asn Buffy and Giles all seemed to over look the whole reason why Angel even had a soul to began with. So Spike getting his soul, fighting for it makes him teh better vamp, as well as the rightful champion.

And I'll never understand why would the PTB want a tarnished vampire cursed with a soul, who could lose it any time, as their chaimpion? And he wasn't so great as a man either before turned. And to assist a slayer who he could manipulate.

I think he didn't come to the bathroom to rape her, things got complicated there and their reationship had always been unhealthy. It was really awesome of him to get a soul to make up for what he had attempted to do to Buffy. I for one forgive him because he amended his mistake.

Actually, Buffy had no intentions of staking Spike after that.  At the first sign of trouble, that's the first place she heads to leave Dawn in his care.  She actually looked disappointed when Clem told her he wasn't there, and would be gone for awhile.  And she kept his coat- a person who hated him and wanted to hurt someone who wasn't there to get such treatment would most likely destroy said person's most treasured possessions.  Look at Harmony- she set his stuff on fire, and all he did was say mean stuff to her.  Buffy just sought him out again, asking for his help, taking care of his most prided possesssion...

Oh and Angel- it wouldn't be so far fetched that the PTBs were using him as their private tool, and maybe they did need Angel- who knows what Connor will be?  If it wasn't for Angel and his cursed sould and dark past (and Darla), the first male slayer would never have been born.

Spikehot, which is exactly how the writers wanted you to feel about it.  Spike's actions in the bathroom are forgivable even before going to get the soul or even deciding to get the soul.

That whole scene I felt sorry for him. I couldn't bring myself to have the same kind of feeling for Buffy.  I'm not saying she "had it coming" that's not true.  I'm just saying, while I felt bad for her, I felt way worse for Spike.  I just couldn't see Buffy as any kind of victim after being the slayer for 6 years, and behaving as she had the entire season.  She was the victimizer, to do that cheap role reversal and expect me to accept it was complete BS on the writer's part.

If they had wanted him to go get a soul, they should have done it a different way.  While the "I want to get a soul so I'll never hurt Buffy again" is poignant and all that crap, it's not realistic.  Most rapists have souls, at least they do in the "hey, I'm human, go me." sense.

Zoe, I must agree.  I felt sorry for Spike when it happened.  He seemed to be hurting more than she was...

I actually feel sorry for all the characters in season six, that look on Spike's face when he realized what he was doing is painful to watch. Poor confused vampire.

I dont' feel sorry for Willow. heh.

Willow is probably the hardest to feel sorry for, but I'm a big softie, I cried when Xander saved her in the end and held her in his arms as she cried. I'm starting to like Willow a lot in season seven, it's very redeeming.

Yeah, I felt sorry for Spike. He's fface, made my heart clench. Just like the look of awe on his face as Buffy came down the stairs in S6 when she first came back. The look on his face, OMG, I felt it to my bones.

As for everyone else, it was hard for me to feel for them except Anya. I was sorry for Buffy until she started acting the way she did.

I actually felt bad for Buffy while she was beating Spike in the ally. She was going through a lot, even though it was wrong to beat Spike that way, she was going through a lot and lost control, same as Spike did in Seeing Red. I felt bad for Xander in Hell's Bells, probably more than Anya. The struggle he was going through, watching his parents fight while he made the decision of his life marrying Anya or leaving. I felt bad for Anya choosing to be a vengeance demon again because there's nothing better to belong to. I felt bad for Dawn stealing a gift for Buffy on her birthday. They all screwed up big but I still sympathized then again I am a big softie.   

I felt sorry for Spike the most, then Dawn... and that was pretty much it.  I understand where Xander was coming from, but he had to know that he wasn't the big ol' abusive lush like his dad- it what's you chose to be that matters.  I think he should of broke the cycle and married Anya, after telling his father off for being such a drunken jerk.  Buffy, she lost control in "Dead Things," sure, but afterwards, she just walked away cause she didn't care.  And because she showed such a lack of remorse for what she did to him, I felt anger at her, and not sorry for whatever hell it was she was going through.  And I'm sure that she felt nothing after that because after all, Spike is nothing but a dead thing...

I agree with you Scarlet -- my beef with Buffy after Dead Things was that she never apologized for it, and that she never expressed remorse for having hurt Spike.  That's what I don't get about the writers.  Spike has his break down and is immediately remorseful and goes off to get a soul -- but the almost rape still hangs over him as a big fault -- with flashbacks and all of that.  But they never went back to the alley way in Dead Things.  No flashbacks.  No sense that Buffy has also crossed a serious line.  Bleck.  Partly it's because she's their heroine.  But also I think it's a bit of reverse sexism.  If a guy had pounded his girlfriend's face into hamburger, he'd be considered to be darned near unredeemable.

Agree with Zoe, also, that they needed a better way to motivate the soul-getting.

Maggie

I too agree with Scarlet and Maggie. Xander I really have no love for him. I get that he came from a bad home, but that didn't mean he was going to end up like his father. I can't help but to think he was looking for a reason not to marry Anya and found it. I felt bad for Anya, 'cause she had it so hard readjusting to being human. Then she falls for Xander and gets left. I'm not saying it was one of her brightest ideas of becoming a demon again, but I can see where she was coming from. Her first man treated her badly, cheated on her, her second ran from her with cold feet, and in between that time she extracted vengeance how many times on men who were like them and worse.

As for Dawn. She was going through that bad phase of being a teen and she hardly had any support. ANd the writers took Spike away. Buffy treated her like crap. Tara was there for a while. So my heart goes out them them.

Oh and Angel- it wouldn't be so far fetched that the PTBs were using him as their private tool, and maybe they did need Angel- who knows what Connor will be?  If it wasn't for Angel and his cursed sould and dark past (and Darla), the first male slayer would never have been born.

Where is it said there is a male Slayer and who refers to Connor as a male Slayer?

Just for the record, Connor is considered to be a dhampir hybrid...being born from two vampires rather than a human and vampire. He is stronger than human and most vampires but he was bested by both Angel and Faith.

Maggie,

Yeah they should have addressed the "dead things" thing.  she DID cross a line.  I can understand and feel sorry for her and that moment was  a big breaking point for her.  But a HERO/INE, a good guy/girl ;) would have apologized, would  have sought to make amends somehow.  But she didn't.

She just left him in the alley and didn't care if he lived or died.  She never apologized, never addressed it, never in any way admitted she was wrong.  If the writers wanted her to be their big heroine, they should have had her apologize.  Because real heros HAVE faults, but they admit them and go on.

Buffy was given superpowers and a mission that made her a "hero by default."  But, being a real hero is something much deeper than that, and it takes more courage than just the courage to use your super powers to pound on the bad guy.  Buffy didn't even really START to become a hero until season seven.  And she still never apologized.  She had a lot of growing up to do before becoming a role model for anyone.

I know Buffy was supposed to be this kickass superhero chick that was supposed to be all empowering to women, but to me, she showed me weakness and continued to enforce gender stereotypes.  Because many times she wasn't a hero on the inside. And giving a woman superpowers to make her strong, continues to judge her with a "male yardstick."

I don't find "buffy" a feminist hero in any real sense of the word.  Her intellect was often ignored, and she often tried to suppress it herself.  And you all already know what I think about how she ran from anything like inner strength.  Her convictions sprang mostly from what she thought others wanted her to want, rather than what she herself felt.

It wasn't until season seven that she finally really started to stand up for what she thought about things and stopped letting the scoobies lead her around, viewing her as their mouthpiece instead of their leader.  When Buffy finally spoke up about what she felt the right course of action was, the Scoobies and potentials kicked her out.  

In season seven Buffy was starting to grow up some.  I think she probably would have apologized and had the big conversations she needed to have with Spike and the others, after the fight if Spike had survived.  But the fact that she didn't when she had the chance was another act of cowardice.  She didn't want to know for sure that Spike would welcome her back with open arms in case she lost him.  But had she risked that pain, from a story perspective Spike would have come back to her when he re-corporealized (Of course we know realistically from a television show perspective, Spike would have stayed in LA since JM was contracted to do that show.  The writers would have just had to be more creative on how to get him to stay away from Buffy.  But there could have been SOME type of closure on that relationship if SMG had been willing to do it.)

Exactly.

Not even when she sees him at her birthday party, with his face still so swollen and bruised, does she say a word about it. Her eyes aren't even remorseful about his beautiful face. And we know she has to find him handsome, since she's *attracted* to him. And Buffy would never bang an ugly guy, even if he was the "awesomest" on the inside.

I wish they'd shown the impact of that night on Spike, what it had to have done to him to see her walk away without a glance. And she didn't check the alley when she left the police station, either. (Though I have to give the writers thanks for giving me a perfect episode to start Spike/OC fic with.)

She wasn't an admirable heroine, or empowering, and often not even likeable. They really had no clue how to address a realistic woman on that show, which is ironic, considering the layered females you have on "Angel".

Yup, she never gave Spike enough incentive to go to her once he had his body back. And by that point, he knew what was healthier for himself and went with it.

Xander I really have no love for him. I get that he came from a bad home, but that didn't mean he was going to end up like his father. I can't help but to think he was looking for a reason not to marry Anya and found it.

I don't think it's that simple. I have a friend with a homelife just like Xander's. She vowed that she'll never get married because she knows she'll turn up like her parents – what helps is her having her mother's bad temper. We try knocking some sense into her but it never works. I think living your childhood and teen years in an unhealthy environment damages a person and it's not an easy fix.

Xander was wrong to propose. He shouldn't have done it when he had a lot of doubts. It's obvious he proposed because he thought they weren't going to make it and he wouldn't go through with it.

Zoe, you are right about Buffy not apologizing for what she had done. She should have. I think she made up for it in season seven. She helped Spike in a big way and that made me forgive her.  

Oh wow, guest (don't know who you are lol), yes on Angel the females were great.  Fred ROCKED, as did Cordelia.  Both of them were very heroic characters, they  had their flaws but they were great.  I especially loved Cordy.  I loved how she was such a deeply caring person underneath that shallow shell she'd built around herself.  And she was willing to grow and change.

I also loved the Cordy/Angel dynamic.  I knew I wanted them to be together back in season one where he'd gone temporarily "evil" from being drugged, and she had that water and was bluffing about it being blessed.  Even evil, he was looking at her with something like respect and I thought...now those two can be a couple.

That was me. Forgot to sign the post.

I loved Cordy/Angel. She doesn't put up with his crap!

And even Lilah had layers. I loved that about the show...that even the bad chicks had layers.

The Space Between, in the most simplest defintion, Connor could be considered a male Slayer because he has powers from a demon, as do slayers, and he's human (with superhuman powers).  He's a hybrid, but technically, so are slayers.  If we'd gotten another season of Angel, maybe we could've learned more about Connor. As for Angel and Faith beating him, well, they've got more experience.  Let Connor get trained by Spike for awhile, and then have a rematch...

Zoe- it's typical for shows to have the heroes or heroines O.D. on self righteousness to the point of making the viewers regurgitate- Clark Kent, Sideny Bristow.... Vomit.  They can never be wrong or evil, and if they are, they deny it and don't apologize, and still point fingers at their "inherently evil forever" counter parts (Lex and Sloane).  At least Angel wasn't like that- he was more noble then them in that regard.  He knew when to admit when he was wrong, usually.

And I loved Cordy/Angel, but the writers bitch slapped worse then the failed Spuffy with the whole Cordy/Connor sex scene.  Eww...

bwahahaha yes cordy/conner was gross.  And I loved Angel's layers in Angel.  I mean it just shows that a character can have flaws but still be likeable.  "Layers" doesn't mean you have to make them unlikeable.  And making them heroes shouldn't mean you have to ignore their screw ups.