This gets a bit into Faith and Angel, so it's not strictly "Buffy" but it's buffyverse.

I'm up to "Sanctuary" on a rewatching of season one Angel.  The episode where Angel is trying to help Faith and Buffy blows in feeling all betrayed that Angel is helping her.

I really think it comes down to Buffy being somewhat jealous, as if she continues to have a claim on Angel after they've broken up.  Angel wasn't moving on to a relationship with Faith, although I always felt those two understood each other in a way Buffy could never understand Angel and Angel could never understand Buffy.  

I would have really liked to have seen an Angel/Faith pairing.  But what I don't get is...even if Angel DID move on to Faith...how is that any different than Buffy moving on to Spike? (Not that Angel took that any better than Buffy took Angel even helping Faith.)

Just curious.  With the Bangel relationship, I always thought it was just a case of the wrong vampire paired with the wrong slayer.  Give Angel the other slayer and Buffy the other vampire and it all works out.

Plus I'm so irked by Buffy's righteous indignation over Faith.  Because Buffy's primary concern is that she slept with Riley while in Buffy's body (really the person Buffy is angry with is Riley, but she feels it's safer to express that rage on Angel and Faith, because Riley is an "innocent.")

Faith sleeping with Riley in Buffy's body is SO not the part to focus on, since she'd gotten a taste for the blood and killing.  I think Angel was right to try to help her and that he was probably the only one who could.  I think she went to LA purposefully because she knew Angel was there and she wanted to draw him out so that he would kill her because she hated what she had become.

Their fight in the rain soaked alley where she begs him to kill her makes it obvious that that's what she wants, although I think she wanted it when she first got to LA and that after her father figure died and she woke up and the world was all changed, her sins were finally mounting up and she had nowhere to really go with it.  She lights up when wolfram and hart ask her to kill Angel and accepts a paltry $15,000 for it.  She doesn't plan to come back from it.  From the very beginning I think she knew (or thought she knew) that Angel would kill her, and that's what she wanted.  She wanted to go out like a slayer.  If Angel killed her, she would have lost to a vampire.

Also, it's sort of a poetic justice.  Since a good slayer often gets killed by a bad vampire.  It's fitting that a bad slayer should be killed by a good vampire.  Angel just didn't act as she expected him too.  I didn't like Angel as a character with Buffy in a relationship, I thought they both brought out the worst and the most emotionally retarded aspects of each other...but...I think Angel is often painted as just plain awful, when in fact he really was making an effort in LA to do the right thing and to help people.

At times he had a level of compassion that I don't think Buffy ever really reached with others.

Anyway...just some random comments and thoughts.

OH! And I just got to the part where Buffy comes in there all large and in charge. I love how Angel isn't allowed to come on her turf and make decisions but she can do that on his turf.  She punches him in the face when she doesn't get her way.  He punches her back and then she's all wounded.

Like she didn't just come into his town, try to get her way, and escalate the situation to violence when she didn't.  She so had that punch coming.  What? Like it's okay for her to punch her former boyfriend in the face but when he returns it, it isn't?  BS. If we were talking a NORMAL boyfriend and girlfriend, then MAYBE.  Because women typically aren't as physically strong upper bodywise as guys.  To beat on a weaker opponent in itself is weakness...but canon states that Buffy is as strong as, if not stronger than Angel and Spike both.  So for her to act all wounded like he's some abuser because he punched her back when she punched him is the biggest BS I've ever seen.

This just reinforces my: "Buffy needs to be spanked" theorum.

Of course, in the end Buffy helped Faith in the episode.  Still. 

Yup, that's pretty much everything I thought in the episode, too. And the conversation after the punches was hilarious.

"You hit me!"

"You hit me first!"

I've seen stories where Angel and Faith works very well. I've also seen great stuff where she's paired with Wes later. Eliza and David clicked in their scenes together in a very natural way, and the characters could have gone any direction and made it work - whether it was best friends, brother/sister, or romantic. We know that Faith would be on Angel's side when all the questions came up about Wolfram and Hart from Giles and Buffy. He didn't give up on her when *everyone* else did.

CM

I kind of look at Faith/Angel like the Spike/Dawn of the Buffyverse.

He understands her in a way that no-one else can and he knows how hard it is to always do the right thing and how sometimes in trying to do the right thing, it turns out to be wrong.

I like the Faith/Wesley pairing so much.Faith grew up in a hard way and needs softness. Wesley was soft and had to grow up hard...I think they kind of balance each other.

But yeah, Zoe, that ep bugs me for those very same reasons. Mind you though, Buffy has a shit-ton of reasons not to trust or like Faith so I don't think its so much that Angel might have been moving on to Faith that might have had her tail in a snit (though she was definitely jealous...just as he was over every guy she dated), but Angel helping Faith out after all she did to hurt Buffy.

Yep Caro, and the actual line was: 

Buffy: "I can't believe you just hit me."

Angel: "Well, not to go all schoolyard on you, but you hit me first.  And in case you forgot, you're a little bit stronger than me."

Yeah Space, but still, Angel was right, and he pointed out to her that this isn't ABOUT her, it's about saving someone.  And no matter her personal feelings on who the someone is, she doesn't get to decide Faith isn't worth saving because of their history.

 :-o I also always wondered why the writers thought it was perfectly okay for Buffy to go around hitting and punching the two vampires that so obivously adored her even though she was suppose to be stronger than both of them...:)

It is morally wrong for anyone who is physically stronger to abuse someone weaker than themselves...

As for her jelously Of Faith and Angel's relationship be it platonic or more; she was acting how my three year old acts if she can't get her own way temper tantrum...And if you look  at season one I think it is, she has paddy and barges into Angel office, after he came to help her with the Native Americans...on Thanksgiving....

She needs someone maybe Gile's as he's her father figure to put her over his knee and give her a good spanking for acting like a spoilt brat...

I think Faith and Angel would of been good together too...Maybe we should rewrite the whole thing with the right pairings Angel & Faith and Spike& Buffy not that loony Drusilla....

Yeah, she barges in, in IWRY, after she found out Angel had been in town and didn't even say hi. But that hadn't been the point of his visit, anyway....he was just there because of Doyle's vision. I don't blame Angel for wanting to avoid the angst-fest that is those two just being in the same room at that time.

I agree, Mrs. - she got so much carte blanche just because she was "The Slayer". Let's not hold Buffy accountable for lots of stuff just because she's "the Slayer". Faith never had the same courtesy (and she shouldn't have, anyway). In a few ways, I think Buffy would have actually been a better person had she been trained by the Council as she was supposed to. She'd have more discipline and self-control...and maybe even be a little more selfless.

CM

Faith was on the opposite end of the spectrum of Spike, which is why she and Angel made more sense then Buffy and Angel.  Bangel= overboard angst and drama, and a...Fike(?) would probably be too much PWP (you can O.D. on gratuity).  Furthermore, the similarities with Spike and Faith is uncanny.  Caging themselves because they got "dangerous" for a little while, and apparently, there's a scene where she's fighting Buffy in s3, and she refers to Buffy as "her girl," that parallels the scene in "Dead Things" when Spike calls her that as well (read that somewhere- I'd have to rewatch a few eps in s3 to double check).  The four of them, are very much interwined with history and personality...

 Anyway, that was one of my fave Angel moments- him punching Buffy in the face... Awww.

And if Buffy had been trained by the Council, she'd be even more hung up on the whole "black and white" thing, which would've made her worse, in my opinion.  The council would've never allowed the presence of Spike or Angel to be around her.  And Giles as a fyarl?  He may have just ended up dead...

Ah Caro, she just needed Spike or Angelus or both to train her up properly, so she could be a little more honest. ;)

Scarlet, I can see Spike with Faith also.  Those two both  have that same kind of vulnerability and need to belong and be loved.

I was thinking from the "I use violence first and don't think about the consequences" situation. Look at Kendra - sure, she needed to learn how to improvise and stuff, but she also had a solid moral code that wouldn't have had her pulling a lot of the crap Buffy did, in the same situation. And being raised to put the world and doing right before your own wants and needs isn't a bad thing in a would-be hero. There never would have been the spoiled brat issues with Kendra. And I bet Kendra never toyed with her kills. She's the type that would enact swift and clean kills......none of this taking out your hatred on the demon crap.

Kendra... Hmm, I think she would've been paired nicely with the five o'clock shadow "dark" Wesley.  A Wendra may have potential (cept for the her dying before they even met part)

I may be way off base here, but I think the reason Buffy was upset with Faith for sleeping with Riley while in Buffy's body... it amounts to rape.  Cause Buffy didnt consent to it.

I have to agree, during the show I'd sit there and pray for Faith and Angel to get together. But it was mainly so Buffy will move on and get with Spike. But that's beside the point. Faith and Angel are better fit for each other. People might say it'd be best for Spike/Faith because they share similar qualities, but that doesn't justify the lack of 'sparkage'. Just my take on the situation.

-Missy

As for the whole body swap thing, I think Buffy was also feeling insecure cause hey- Faith had tons more of sexual experience then Buffy, and yes, I'm sure there was a difference, cause at that time, "Buffy didn't throw down like that." 

There was definitely a difference...remember her being a bit too aggressive and naughty with Riley and him standing back like WTF?!?  Then she did the nice, sweel girl routine and played it down to vanilla so Riley was happy and they bumped uglies...and well, we know Buffy was a vanilla girl until Spike showed her the proverbial Baskin Robins (and for those of you not in the states, Baskin Robins is an icecream store--their slogan is 'baskin robins 31 flavours'--they always have 31 different flavours on hand at all times and they switch it up often).

Hmm... 31 flavors is good, but I'd compare Spike more to Stone Cold Creamery- the variations of flavor are endless ;)

Ok, I'm switching to stone cold then,lol.

Yeah, I liked the idea of Angel with Faith way more than him with Buffy. So see it all comes down to the fact that we are right and the writers are wrong. Buffy and Spike are ment for each other and the same for Angel and Faith, lol. So we'll just push Wood out of the picture.

As for that eppie, which I love by the way. Buffy has that spoild brat complex "MINE," and if someone even hints at trying to take her toys ( Angel and Spike) away she has a fit. Then she has to re-establish to them (her toys) that they do belong to her. So out comes the fist. Which then resuces her to bully statues. Because what she is doing is bulling and abuse. Angel points that out, "you are a bit stronger." I do wonder why the writers felt it was ok for her to treat both vamps in that manner, more of Spike since he was around her. But I have to think, once Riley came into the picture and Buffy knowing she couldn't do anything with Angel, and if he had stayed in SunnD. Would she have beaten him up on a regular as well. And I also wonder how would have Spike's and Angel's relationship have fostered?

Man, I'm so in the mood to write a fic now where Buffy gets some of her own right back... though I'm not wanting to promote the whole 'its ok for a man to hit a woman' gig. But still... they aren't regular men and women... so it would be ok... right?!?

And yeah, Stone Cold Creamery is freakin AWESOME. Raspberry Cheesecake chip...YUM YUM YUM!!!!  Sadly, we only have Baskin Robins and The Creamery (not Stone Cold) here and the Creamery makes really freakin awesome sundaes and such but not much on ice cream flavour selection. I will say Baskin Robins came out with Oatmeal Cookie Crunch and OMG--sooo YUM.

Sidenote: I've noticed we are the only women that can talk about vampires and ice cream in the same thread and not miss a beat on either one.

Shadow if it had been a stranger I would agree, but Buffy wouldn't have objected to Riley sleeping with her. They were in a committed relationship and sleeping together all the time. I can't really speak for a fictional character with total authority, but if Someone else switched bodies with me and then slept with my  husband, I wouldnt' feel like I'd been raped.  I'd feel like she slept with my husband and my husband didn't know it wasn't me. So my anger would have been at her and my husband but it would have had nothing to do with rape.

Now, if someone while in my body decided to go do a gang bang somewhere, yeah, I might consider that in some sense "rape" Although it would be a "theoretical" kind of rape. i.e. I wouldn't be able to have the proper "rape victim" response, since I wasn't there to experience it. Sometimes in a bad situation, the victim goes into "third person" where they see the event happening to them, but they aren't actually "there" to experience it, or later they remember it in "third person"  That's to protect their psyche.  In this case, Buffy wasn't there at all.  It's just something she's been told and there is no way she can emotionally consider it "rape" for both of those reasons IMO.

I dunno missy, i think spike and faith spark.  Their convo in the basement and the times they fought together.  I definitely think they spark.

bwahahahaha Space. It would have been tragic for Buffy to have ended up with Riley. Vanilla "sweet" sex for all time? Blech.  That's like hell.

LMAO Space, and I'm punishing the hell out of Buffy in "Fallen Angels" Smacking the brat right out of her, if you can handle the squick. ;)

Zoe, Spike and Faith do spark, but there would be no balance with them.  "Reformed" Faith and Spike... I still feel that at the end of the day, with all of their sparking and copulating, it would just be porn, and no point whatsoever.  I don't see any scenario where they could grow together or make it something more- they both need someone "tame" (i.e. Angel and Buffy) to bounce off of, otherwise it'd be chaos.  The only thing they'd have is really rough, amazing sex, and that's only entertaining for so long, lol

See, I don't see that scarlet.  I think they would balance each other out and they could each give the other what they need and be able to let down those walls.  I don't think it would just be rough sex, I think they could have something meaningful.

But Faith doesn't dig meaningful.  After they do it, she'd make some comment about how it was, and then look for a fresh meat stick the next night.  However, it being Spike, she'd go back to him from time to time, but he wouldn't be her one and only, and Spike doesn't like to share.

But see, that isn't how Faith really is. Look at her in the end with Robin Wood. She got horozontal with him and then tried to blow him off and when she found he wanted more, she consented to letting him surprise her and show her that not all men are the same.

Faith wants love and acceptance so badly that its part of the reason why she bounces from guy to guy. If she doesn't stay long enough to get attached, then it doesn't hurt when they take a walk. Faith is even worse than Buffy in that regard...the risking of her heart.

She just didn't pummel the crap out of anyone and play the mind games that Buffy did with Spike. Except when she tried to strangle Xander...but umm...wouldn't you want to strangle Xander too, afterwards??

She only resumed interest in Robin when he didn't sing her praises, asking her for more.  He caught her attention cause he was like "Oh, you were alright, but you didn't change my world or anything."  And he said he was prettier than she was.  That was new to her, and intriguing.

I agree Space, and the way she was with Angel (as friends) when he helped her.  I think Faith would have been on board with a man who could handle her longterm.  The way she was with Xander and other men was a fear response.  Dump them before they can ditch you.

Which fight do you want me to write about Joyce?

Spike thumping the daylights out of Buffy? Or Faith thumping Xander even more? 

*grin*

And I agree with you there Scarlet. Wood threw Faith for a loop and that is what you need to do with that girl. Ya gotta sucker-punch her (in a non fisty way) to get her attention, otherwise she will high-tail it outta there. I see so much of myself in Faith...not the violent parts...but the vulnerable, needy, desperate parts of her that she keeps hidden. I mean come on, you don't exploit your weaknesses, you hide them so when Faith gets bouncy with a guy, she is the first to be up and outta there so theres no chance of rejection.

Faith lives by the motto "No-one touches. Touch no-one" and she had to learn that in the hardest of ways.

DESI'S NEW READING REC:
I know, I know. It's not about other vamps and slayers but DoS has a Spara-ish fic she is writing that has me HOOKED. In it Buffy is a total ho-bag PSYCHO and Tara is the heroine! I'm practically begging her to write me into the story so I can pummel the crap out of Buffy! *grin*

PS, Zoe, can I add you on LJ?

Sure Space, absolutely. :)