Now, there's a question :P

Working on s3 of Angel, and just realized something in the episode "Birthday."  Cordelia agrees to be imbued with a demon (what kind, how, and in what way is unknown to her) in order to help the world and be a champion.  Granted, she was dying, but she was offered her very own fantasy lifestyle in exchange.  Buffy on the other hand declines, even though it'd make her way stronger in the upcoming fight for the world, for what I think is because she didn't want to have apart of a demon (well more of) inside of her, which kind of reminded me of that girl on "America's Next Top Model" who refused to cut her hair another measely inch after most of it had been hacked off already, and was sent home.

Just thought that was interesting.

Oh, and kinda OT, but from other threads I cannot recall--four Buffy characters were on Seinfeld: Veruca, Jonathan, the Master and that chick who played Riley's wife.  Also, the crazy man that Dawn first sees in s5, talking about a cat in the cupboard or something, plays a demon doctor in s3 of Angel.

Yes--I've legally changed my middle name to Whedonesque Geek.

So, are you asking whether Cordelia and/or Buffy made the right choice?

In Cordelia's case, it seems like she did what she had to do to keep herself alive without sacrificing her friends. She could've chosen the fantasy life, but she'd have to live with knowing that Angel was insane and Wesley was crippled. On the other hand, in hindsight, becoming a demon seems to be the first stage of her being taken over by evil. I'm not sure of the extent - it seems like if she'd just turned down Skip on the higher power offer, none of season 4 would've happened, but I'm not sure. At the very least, that interaction in "Birthday" made her trust Skip when he came back with offer #2.

In Buffy's case, I'm not sure how being stronger would've helped all that much. I mean, it looked like millions of Turok-han in that cave. Even with the full power of a demon, I doubt Buffy would've even made much of a dent in their numbers. No matter what she did, she still needed Spike to use the amulet, so in the long run, I don't think her choice hurt her at all. Maybe she could've saved a few more Slayers who died in the final fight, but probably not.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with the ANTM reference, but the comparison seems to trivialize Buffy's situation. Yes, she already has some demon inside her, so maybe a little more wouldn't hurt her. But she's chained down while something violates her, is forced on her against her will - the imagery here's suggesting mystical rape. Even if the demon itself has little effect on her, the experience would be traumatizing enough. Also, I think it's a matter of principle for Buffy to refuse to align herself with or accept power from the men who made the Slayer into their slave.

Cordelia and Buffy are in very different situations when they have to make their choice.  Both are placed in very bad situations, but as Eowyn315 states, Buffy is being completely violated - 

I do think that Cordelia is set-up for the later season at this point - it was proposed on one of my board discussions, that Cordelia's arrogance was the important deciding factor in becoming a higher being.

I want to apologize now for my terrible spelling skills - I totally suck at it  - always have and I don't see a spell check function on that I can use.

I've had a thought for a while - what if Buffy taking the demon essence, the power, would have allowed *her* tp wear the amulet without harm? Someone with a soul but more than human......she might have been able to kill enough Ubervamps and still leave that cave before it completely caved in with that kind of power......

Yes, Cordy accepting the "demon" was just step one to her possession by Jasmine. Skip was hired to gain their trust from the start.

CM

I don't think the Shadow men should've chained her, but I think if they gave her a choice, I don't think she would've chosen the power boost anyway. (Oh, I just meant with the ANTM ref that, well, what's another inch?  But yeah, the way they wanted to give Buffy that inch, with the chains and all, wasn't the best way)

And Cordy being set up for the whole Jasmine thing, well, that only happens after she has sex with Connor, and I don't believe anyone forced her hand there.  It was just all kinds of wrong (and eww, eww, eww!)...that's the only thing that I don't see as connecting.  Whoever wanted Jasmine to come to be through Cordelia, how could they possibly have figured she'd do that?  I would think that Connor would have been the least likely candidate of all the men in her life (of course I'm obviously wrong, but if I were an evil someone trying to predict her actions, that would not have been something I would've guessed in a million years).

And Caro, you bring up an interesting point I haven't considered--if Buffy had worn the amulet, then she definitely wouldn't have been burned by sunlight.  On the other hand, I won't rob Joss of giving Spike that extremely heroic moment :P  But then again, I don't see why they couldn't have just tossed down several grenades into the hellmouth upon opening it.  Sunnydale (and it's army base, I'm sure) was deserted, so obtaining such materials, or even something as simple as "baking a cake," could've been done before they went charging down there, or waiting till Willow's spell kicked in...  Alright, I'm not going to dive into the cavernous pot hole (or plot hole) that is "Chosen."

Ah, but Skip admits when they've captured him that Jasmine has been manipulating the whole thing from the beginning, starting with Connor's conception. She was tired of watching humanity fight itself, and wanted to bring about that utopia.....just with eating a few people here and there.

Jasmine was a PTB, after all.

Oh.  How awful *shudders*  She couldn't have chosen an un-Connor shaped funnel?  Angel?  Wes maybe?  Gunn and Fred were on the rocks--why not him?  Or anyone who she didn't mother perhaps?  That part just creeped me out--not his age, but that she was the only person who he was able to look to as a mother, no matter how briefly that was.

On a related note...I think it is interesting that Buffy equated the attempt to imbue her with more of the demon spirit to rape. ... . yet when she awakened all the potentials (only those in her home had a voice to say yea or nay) with that selfsame essence was that not rape in her view?  Not all of those potentials would have had that essence take up home in them and they had no say in it save those few.

Kathleen

That's true, Kathleen.  Not everyone wants, or needs to be a Slayer.  She robbed a lot of young women of that "normal" life that she herself longed for.  I'm sure some wanted it, or even needed it, perhaps.  But not all of them.  I'm sure they could've gone through life and never known they even possesed that brand of potential.

if Buffy had worn the amulet, then she definitely wouldn't have been burned by sunlight.

She still would've been crushed when Sunnydale caved in, though. I mean, even if Spike hadn't burned up, he intended to stay until the end, which would've meant getting trapped when the Hellmouth collapsed.

She couldn't have chosen an un-Connor shaped funnel?

I thought the point was that it had to be Connor? I pretty much avoid this plot line like the plague, but like Caro said, it was all engineered since Connor's conception - meaning the plan was for Connor to be the "father" of Jasmine since before he himself was born. 

when she awakened all the potentials (only those in her home had a voice to say yea or nay) with that selfsame essence was that not rape in her view?

Interesting point. Obviously, it wasn't rape in her view... but the question is why. I'm sure part of it has to do with what I mentioned before - in creating the Slayer, the Shadowmen made her their slave, whereas Buffy sees what she's doing as freeing the Slayers from the Shadowmen's rules. She also by this point sees her powers as a good thing (which shows a lot of character development from her early days as a Slayer), and so she's giving the potentials an asset by making them Slayers, something that is evident in the images we see when she gives her speech - girls overcoming fears and obstacles once they become Slayers. Also, a lot of what Buffy saw as the burden of Slayerness came from being the only one - in sharing the power, she's not only relieving herself of that burden, but she's relieving all future Slayers from that burden as well.

Bottom line, I think a lot of Buffy's rationale on awakening the potentials comes from her view of what being the Slayer is and her own experience as one. We might see it differently, and more objectively, because of being merely observers.

Edited to address Scarlet's point - Given that there are now thousands of Slayers, who's to say that some of them couldn't have a normal life? They'd be super-strong and have healing powers and all that, but no one is forcing them to risk their lives and fight vampires. Surely, some of them will feel a call to duty, but in the comics for example, only 500 out of 1800 Slayers are working for the Council. The rest could be living relatively normal lives, albeit with some extra special skills. Buffy could never have a normal life because there was no one else to do it - but because of the spell, that's not the case anymore.

 I mean, even if Spike hadn't burned up, he intended to stay until the end, which would've meant getting trapped when the Hellmouth collapsed.

But he didn't have to stay.  That was his personal choice, but certainly not mandatory.

As for the Connor thing--I didn't mean "she" as in Cordelia, but Jazmine.  If she's been watching humanity, shaking her head all that time, then surely she would've known that giving the boy an Oedipal complex wasn't cool.

As for the slayers...I meant normal in the sense that on a planet of 6 billion plus people, 1800 having super strength would not be considered the norm amongst the majority.  Slayer strength is something you can hide for only so long, I'm sure.  One could always blame it on adrenaline, I suppose, but that excuse is only going to work for so long.  Having that super strength, unless you live alone and are a recluse, is going to affect your life in some form or fashion.  Even if one had a mind wipe, you'd eventually figure out how different you are (as we saw in TR).  And it is a difference you can only share with 1800 people around the globe, which is four hundred less than all the students at my high school.  People, the general public at least, wouldn't understand, and some would want to cut you up and study you.  It's a gift, but also a curse.

But he didn't have to stay.  That was his personal choice, but certainly not mandatory.

I guess, but then the original comment is kind of meaningless. Caro's comment was that Buffy should've worn the amulet, because she wouldn't have been burned by the sunlight and that would've saved Spike. But in fact, it wouldn't have mattered if Buffy or Spike wore the amulet, because either one of them could've gotten out in time - if he didn't have to stay until the end, he could just as easily have taken off the amulet and then he wouldn't have burned up. It's only because he stayed to the end that it burned him. 

I can see it from a sacrificial point of view, but also from a logical one - how could they really be sure he'd done "enough" until it was over? They didn't know all of Sunnydale was going to cave in until it happened. The cave was unstable, but that didn't necessarily mean a full collapse that would shut the Hellmouth. If it were Buffy OR Spike, I think there'd be a fear that if they left too soon, it wouldn't do enough damage. 

That's true, but I don't think it's as much of a trauma as being called to sacrifice your life or kill someone you love to save the world, or any of the other impossible decisions Buffy had to make as a Slayer. So, in Buffy's balancing of the scales, giving 1800 girls an asset that might set them apart is a better alternative than saddling one girl at a time with the weight of the world.

For Spike though, had he left before it was "done," or what have you, would he had really made it to that bus in the daylight?  True, if he'd stopped, maybe it wouldn't have been as much of a collapse...but I'm sure some part of the down would've gone under, if not the whole thing.  He may have figured he'd burn either way, but there's no real way to tell.

Is it ever explained what will happen once the 1800 die?  Will there be more potentials, or is that it for the Slayer line?  And did the spell only work on potentials that existed when the spell was initially done?

If the 1800 (well, less now, if anyone's following the s8 comic) is all that there will be, then that still kinda suck for down the road, cause the spell essentially would mean no slayers for the future.  But I don't know the definite answer to those questions that I asked, so maybe not.

would he had really made it to that bus in the daylight?

Good point, although he couldn't know for sure that they'd start driving away without him and Buffy... and if he'd dropped the amulet when Buffy told him to go, they both would've made it out a little sooner, so they might have made the bus.

As for the future of the Slayers, it hasn't been explained in anything official. If you consider "Fray" canon (and I think Joss does) then at some point, it must go back to one Slayer, because Fray is the only one in the future. (Of course, it's also implied in "Fray" that Buffy died fighting the First, so take that as you will.) 

My guess would be that the spell activated all the potentials currently living, but the "Slayer line" would still only continue through one girl. More potentials would be born, but once this generation of Slayers dies off, only one girl's death will call a new Slayer, and all the rules will go back to the way they were before the spell.

Look what happened to Dana, though, because she was given Slayer powers - she brought her nightmares into the real world, and became a murderer. The thing I don't like about giving all that power to every Potential, is that the vast majority will be very young minors. Cold truth is, Buffy didn't have the right to do that to them, and neither did Willow. Those girls are now a target for any demon they happen to walk by at night. Whether they choose to participate in the fight, or not, they're going to see the occasional vampire that wants to take them out. Evil will still want to pluck them out just because they now have that homing beacon of Slayer blood.

CM

CM, you could also say that Buffy gave those girls a chance to survive when they wouldn't normally; sure, being a Slayer makes you a target, but so does being a regular human being, more so, even.  If a demon or vampire recognizes that the girl they're stalking is a slayer, there's a chance they'll decide to go elsewhere, rather than get involved with a pissed off Chosen One.  Granted, these girls may not know that they're Slayers, but just having the strength to push a vampire off them, and the speed to run away, could save their lives, when if they weren't endowed with the powers of the slayer, they would be a walking Happy Meal.

Yes, Buffy and Willow took choices away from these girls.  But they gave choices, too.  I think that was the whole point of the little montage that went on during Buffy's speech; the little girl who straightened at bat and now has the confidence to hit the ball; the girl who stopped her father from abusing her?  These girls now have the ability to protect themselves and others from evil.  Dana was the exception that proves the rule.  If Dana had had her Slayer powers when that guy killed her family, she might have been able to stop him before he was able to destroy her life. 

I also think most girls would be thrilled with the abilities they have now.  As has been stated previously, they're not alone, they're part of an exclusive club, and to quote Faith, "Good thing we're hot chicks with superpowers!"

I always hoped that one of the wonderful Buffyverse fan fiction writers would take up the Slayer-Mate  relationshiip-procreation theme with a saga of Spike & Buffy seeking out and creating potential mates for slayers via the African Caves Test.  The creation of a small circle of Extra Special Slayers that are able to mate and procreate with Vampire Mates would address how the Slayer Line after Chosen could possibly continue and it would give vampire males the opportunity to becomes warriors on the side of Postive Life Force. 

Yes, Buffy and Willow took choices away from these girls. But they gave choices, too. I think that was the whole point of the little montage that went on during Buffy's speech; the little girl who straightened at bat and now has the confidence to hit the ball; the girl who stopped her father from abusing her? These girls now have the ability to protect themselves and others from evil. Dana was the exception that proves the rule. If Dana had had her Slayer powers when that guy killed her family, she might have been able to stop him before he was able to destroy her life.

I agree - The entire metaphor and story of Buffy is concluded in this ritual - Buffy brings her boon into the world by empowering women to find their inner strengths and all their potential via the scythe and distributing all her power to women. That is the conclusion of the metaphor of Buffy’s Journey – cutting down all those delusion of "what a woman should be" and male power i.e., scythe (the cutting tool) and the male shamans taking over the female form to do their bidding. The very fact that Buffy does ask "are you ready to be strong" takes the issue out of the hands of society and cultural rules and male domination and makes the woman the creator of her life.

Joss Whedon was writing for the real world situation and using The Buffyverse as the reflection of how we live and our social institutions. And I can tell you that I have a sister that suffered from an abusive husband and if his little pea brain thought for one minute that she could have protected herself and could fight back, he never would have attacked her at all.

Sorry for my rambling style - wish that I could write better -

I agree with all the really smart things that nmcil just said about Chosen.  But in the cave episode, wasn't Buffy's choice at least partially motivated by the fact that it would make her less human?  All the rape and ownership metaphors aside, isn't at least somewhat an issue of "the price isn't worth the power."  Part of what defines Buff's character for me is the fact that this immense responsibility is forced on her, but that deep down she really wishes she was just like everyone else.

Spike and the magnificent metaphor of his journey of self-discovery and recreation story arc would have been destroyed if he did not stay until the end and collapse of The Hellmouth. Much of the story arc, metaphor and symbols that are used starting with SR, OMWF (first reference to The Spark) the Cross Scene made his  use of amulet and his body as the vessel of the power; would not have created the powerful and emotional ending from Chosen. Spike also like Buffy concludes his journey by bringing his boon and power for world change to the caves, the African caves and his test give back his humanity, and the Sunnydale caves gives his final acceptance and sacrifice back to the world.

Spike has finally become and even surpassed in some ways Buffy’s heroic journey. While Buffy remains in the mortal world Spike has transcended and like the Christ or a Bodhisattva, he offers his life (Christ) or Nirvana (Bodhisattva) for the good of the entire world. Even with the resurrection of Spike in Angel Season 5, his Amulet Sacrifice/Bodhisattva status and symbolism can remain functional.

While I personally would have liked Buffy and Spike to escape from the Hellmouth together, I do believe that it would have diminished his great journey and all the wonderful mythic symbolism. The ending scene in Chosen, which connects final purification & sacrifice, IMO, was perfect for Spike. Even the words Buffy used "you’ve done enough" (paraphrase) were the same phrase used in "The Last Temptation of Christ" and Spike telling Buffy that "it kind of stings" shows that he was filled with all the greatness and capacity for LOVE on such a grand scale. Throw in the final connection to Cassie/Cassandra lines of "she will tell you" (paraphrase) to show how tragic their love story was and you have, IMVHO, one of the great endings to a series and story.

I am happy to have had Spike in Angel Season 5, but would also have been very satisfied knowing that my wild, wonderful and ultimately self-created vampire reaches such glory and fulfillment of his potential. Spike the slayer by control by inner demon and while still having all the great strength of character and love that was Spike/William is the perfect completion of his story.

Hey lostboy -

love your icon - finished listening to a really good audio book reading of "Watership Down" - I love BW - read the book many years ago and really enjoyed the audio reading.

Okay,  I agree with all the smart things nmcil just said again.  And not only was it the perfect wrap-up for Spike, but it was the perfect wrap-up for Buffy, too.  To me, the infamous "smile" was about winning her freedom.  There was a terrible battle, and unbearable losses, but now that's she's not the only one, Buffy gets to have something she's always dreamed of:  a normal life.  I got mad when I heard that Joss just ripped that away from her in the comic series, like that freedom never even existed, even for a day.

nmcil, thanks  :)

I admit I'm a fan, espcially of the trippy ending.  I was originally looking for a good still of the General, but this was too perfect!

 somewhat an issue of "the price isn't worth the power." 

as a general - had Buffy been given more information and in an entirely different mode of conversation, not in tied-up mode, the choice of acceptance would be totally different.  If an advantage to having more power were possible, I am sure she, like any good general would have seriously considered taking it - but the circumstances of the situation took away intelligent conversation and consideration. 

Another thing to consider with Chosen is that two different stories are being ended: Buffy the hero and rite of passage and Spike, the creature of self-discovery and self-creation.  I suppose that from a strictly battle scenario, and only after knowing what the power of the amulet would do, Buffy really did not have to create Slayers from Potentials.  But all those girls would more than likely have died until the amulet soul power was activated.

Right.  Gonna jump all over the place here, so bear with me.

To the original point - Cordelia gave up normal when she accepted the responsibility of the visions.  Yes, she initially tried to dump them but ultimately she embraced being a seer.  That, I think, is her ultimate difference from Buffy making it a moot point as to whether or not either of them made the right choice on the demonic upgrades.  Buffy had a hard enough time accepting herself as a slayer, much less getting an additional add-on.  Cordelia matured greatly from the selfish spoiled rich girl and proved it when she accepted Skip's offer.  Buffy chose to deny the original shadowmen for reasons that weren't necessarily related to how much she had or had not grown. It was more about control of her destiny.  Also, her life wasn't on the line.  While the end result to both situations was potentially similar, they aren't really comparable choices.

On a personal note - I'm right there with you.  Buffy saying no to adding to her slayer essence at a time of great need when she was already imbued to begin with was a bit like closing the barn doors after the horses had run off.

Second point - maybe I missed it, but I think everyone is forgetting Cordelia wasn't in the driver's seat after returning from the higher plane.  She didn't choose to sleep with Connor, or any of the actions after accepting Skip's offer to ascend.  Yes, she remembered it, and she knew it was happening, but she wasn't in control.  This is established in canon Angel s5's "You're Welcome" when Cordelia mentions having her body and mind hijacked by a Power - Jasmine, and asks him what he thought might have happened if she hadn't met up with Skip the night she agreed to ascend.  Also, Jasmine-controlling-Cordy was hinted at when she returned in a s4 episode titled "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" and it is eventually established that she was the one that brought The Beast - he called her Master - into the picture and he showed up before Cordelia slept with Connor.

Third, and hopefully final point - Buffy coming up with the idea to tap all the potential slayers in the world was another huge plot hole/device/deus ex machina that directly contradicted oh-so-many things in canon it's almost painful to acknowledge. In an effort to be brief, I'll just point out the one tied to The First.  

In "Showtime" Giles and Anya seek out Beljoxa's Eye and it told them the mystical forces surrounding the chosen line had "become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable" and the fault lied with Buffy being alive again after having died, leaving an opening for The First to exploit.  It's up for interpretation, but one has to wonder if the instability is Buffy herself or that there are two slayers creating an imbalance.  After all, balance seems to be an important theme on the show.  Even if we just go with what is canon and the lines uttered on the actual show - messing with the mystical forces surrounding the slayer line is bad and led to bad things.

Toss in the scenes from "Get it Done" where Buffy calls what the Shadowmen did a violation and breaks the staff (a phallic symbol of power btw) to stop their efforts to imbue her, and the repeated allusions throughout the series to the horror of being a young woman forced to fight demons because of some mystical lottery, shortening their lifespans and subjecting them to one life-and-death situation after another one has to wonder how the writers could do a 180 and have everyone saying, "yes, let's force this gift on thousands of other young girls because it worked out so well for all the others," and skip happily away off into the sunset of yet another pyrrhic victory.  

Even if we ignore the Spiderman dogma of with great power comes great responsibility, and that for every Buffy and Kendra there is a Faith making handing out such power randomly highly irresponsible, you gotta wonder what they were all smoking that morning before riding off to battle.  If Buffy being alive was enough of a whammy on the mystical forces surrounding the chosen line then what was thousands of slayers going to do to it? If they were doing it for the battle, to win a victory against the First, than why not some parameters?  Why not just tap the ones that were there for the fight?  For every potential that gained to strength to hit the ball, or fight off an abuser there was another who would use her power for selfish purposes.  By giving all those girls the tap, they set up the world for yet another apocalypse, probably the big one, especially if in the Buffyverse balance was vital.  The backlash from such an act would have to be akin to what was hinted at with the coming horde at the end of Angel s5.

Buffy from s5 began the episode of "The Gift" saving a young man and acknowledging that she's just a girl, sort of a melancholy acknowledgment that she'd like to be normal, that she thinks of herself as just a girl. Buffy choosing to activate all the potentials on the planet, to save the world or not, was very out of character.  If anyone else had come up with the idea, and if Giles had been the dissenting voice, or maybe Willow, or just someone then I might have bought it but overall it was all about the drama, and not at all about staying true to what made Buffy the Vampire Slayer such a great show - one girl in all the world, a Chosen One fighting the forces of darkness, with the help of her friends (and the occasional hot plot device, er, I mean boyfriend).  It was a show about a hero, a flawed one at times, but a hero nonetheless with a group of heroic friends volunteering to help her shoulder the burden.

Buffy pushing that responsibility off on other girls really didn't ring true, even if you ignore her earlier claims of the Shadowmen's violations, and all her declarations of wanting the unobtainable "normal."

Not knocking Spike, he is, after all, my favorite character, but the show was ultimately about Buffy, not Spike, and his death at the end sorta stole the show.  I'm not going to delve into the actors' performances because I'm just addressing the story/plot/characters here, but you have to wonder why Spike got the big bang at the end on not our girl.  It was a bit of a let down (even if it was a great moment for the Spike character).  Buffy's efforts were no more heroic than the potentials, possibly less so because they were so green and she was a veteran, and her racing out of the rapidly sinking town was a really lame escape.  Running and jumping?  Sorry, but I think Buffy deserved more.  I couldn't help but think that was more about special effects and less about Buffy the character surviving the day.

So, to sum up - Buffy probably made the wrong choice with the whole demonic essence thing, but at least it was in character.    Cordelia's choice was a good one, despite the fact it laid the ground work for Jasmine, and also in character.  And if one looks at established canon, tapping all the potentials in the world was not only a strange and irresponsible solution, it ultimately made no sense and directly contradicted Buffy's words and actions in "Get it Done" - why were the Shadowmen acting out a violation yet her action was empowerment when they were essentially the same darn thing?  And no, lack of chains didn't remove the stain of it being forced on all those girls.  They didn't ask for it, nor were they given a choice.  And hey, isn't that just like what happened to Buffy?

Her words from season two, "Becoming, Part Two," Buffy to Joyce: 

"No, it doesn't stop! It never stops! Do, do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is, how dangerous? I would love to be upstairs watching TV, or gossiping about boys, or God, even studying! But I have to save the world ... again."

~ Q

Q, I could kiss you. That's everything I've thought about "Chosen", etc.

CM

I might just be mistaken, but I sort of justified the calling of all the potentials as being an alternative to them all being hunted down and killed by the First.  I may very well have missed something, so let me know if I'm wrong.

Hard to make a call for the ending to the series - it is true that the distributuion of Slayer Power to all the potentials would have resulted in a force and change placed on young women that was not asked for or given only after they had chosen to accept it.  But was not the series originally created to address the status of women living their lives mainly through roles imposed on them by social and cultural rules?  Do women really have the complete freedom to chose and even to find their potential for living a full life?  Even today, the basic question of procreation and how women will control their own bodies is still one of the vital question in our culture.  Generations upon generations of women have been forced to live lives by rules outside of their control.  In that context, Buffy's question of "are you ready to be strong"  (sorry if I have the line wrong) makes perfect sense because if we accept what the creator of the series said - it was about women not having to be the weak victim or ineffective in having control of their own life choices -

Like Buffy and her world going from Black and White to Shades of Gray - the question has many sides and layers to consider.

 "breaks the staff (a phallic symbol of power btw)"

Also, The Slayer's super weapon is a scythe which is  a tool used to cut down -

I believe it isn't allowing me to quote from higher in the thread due to either my technical ineptness or possibly because I'm a guest.  Either way, please bear with me as I try to comment without being able to cut and past.

To jijabi's point - The First hunting down potentials - This is one of many plot holes in season seven.  Had they spread the story out over two seasons they might have been able to fix it, do it justice, but overall, crammed into s7 it was hurried and contrived. 

And you are right - Initially the audience is given the idea all potentials are being hunted down and killed, along with their watchers ("Never Leave Me" specifically, along with Buffy's slayer dreams in prior episodes).  In the very next episode Giles states there are only a  "handful left" and that "they are all on their way to Sunnydale."  Giles also goes on to say the watcher's always feared such an action, and that the First's plan is to destroy the slayer line so the Hellmouth wouldn't have a guardian. 

This is significant because he spouts off about "the balance" being at risk.  Again, Giles and Anya are warned in "Showtime" about the slayer line being "altered, unstable" because Buffy was supposed to stay dead.  Again in "Dirty Girls" Giles reiterates (a voice over flashback to when he said it the last time) there are only a handful of potentials left and they are already in Sunnydale or on their way.

Flash forward to "Chosen" and the First notes there are thirty-odd potentials left and that once its "army outnumbers the humans on earth, the scales will tip," and it will be made flesh.  Finally!  We are given the ultimate goal of the First.  It used the imbalance of the slayer line to begin building its army - more imbalance, more army.  Gotta get rid of the guardian and any who might replace her or it can't open the Hellmouth and flood the world.  At that point, I have no issue with the storyline.

Had "Chosen" been a large battle with Buffy leading her little army of potentials down into the Hellmouth with her carrying the scythe and wearing the amulet it would have worked - both with the mythos presented in canon and well within the boundaries of personality for the characters of the show.  Even if she had handed off either artifact to Faith or Spike, it still would have fit.

Instead, everything they've learned about The First, the slayer line, how it was created is tossed out the window and Buffy starts speeching (again) and babbles about choices (she mentions it four times) before handing over the power of the slayer to her little army and heretofore unknown host of women around the globe despite the fact the majority of those women aren't present to have any choice in the matter and that the imbalance - if what we've been told all season holds true - will give a larger opening to the First.

Nmcil's point - I know very little about the doctrine behind the show.  I've seen (or more likely read) interviews with the creator where he mentioned it was definitely written with a feminist agenda.  Feminism is about addressing gender inequalities (whether they be political, moral or otherwise) and gaining equal rights for women.  I'm a firm believer you can't have equality without freedom.  They go hand in hand.  Buffy not giving those women a choice when she herself was robbed of one was not only out of character it stomped all over their freedom to choose in the first place.  I don't see tapping them against their will as giving them more control so much as less.  It doesn't matter if you or I think they'd be better off with the power to protect themselves.  It doesn't even matter if we are right.  What matters is they have the freedom to choose in the first place, otherwise it's all for naught. How can they have control over their life choices if a huge one - that will ultimately touch or influence all the rest - has already been made for them?

~ Q

It's up for interpretation, but one has to wonder if the instability is Buffy herself or that there are two slayers creating an imbalance.

There have been two Slayers since "Prophecy Girl," and unless it took the First six years to strike (making it the slowest-mobilizing villain ever), I'd say that it's not just the fact that there are two Slayers, it's Buffy's second resurrection that caused the imbalance.

If Buffy being alive was enough of a whammy on the mystical forces surrounding the chosen line then what was thousands of slayers going to do to it?

Given the above conclusion, I don't think the number of Slayers has anything to do with it. Everything was stable for years with two Slayers, so I don't see any reason why adding more would necessarily throw things off.

And if it is really all about Buffy's resurrection, the solution seems simple: kill Buffy. But it's possible that what's done is done, and killing her wouldn't undo the damage that the First is exploiting.

However, I also think that the entire Beljoxa's Eye bit was ignored in the final battle-planning either because it was a deliberate mislead, or because the writers intended to go somewhere with it, and then changed their minds. Either way, after that episode, it's never brought up again. Maybe they just accepted that Buffy's resurrection was to blame and that there was nothing they could do about it, so they focused on the battle at hand.

I'm a firm believer you can't have equality without freedom.  They go hand in hand.

That's actually not true. Often, the two are at odds - generally in a case where you're weighing the freedom of one person or group against the equality of another. If you give people freedom to choose, they will choose to be unequal (to their own advantage). But that's a political science discussion.

The interesting thing about Buffy's slayer spell is that it doesn't make women equal. It makes a small group of women more powerful than other women, and more powerful than men. That's the entire premise of the comics - that a small group of superpowered girls are considered dangerous to society because they are unequal to everyone else.

E's right.  In fact, the Communist Manifesto explicity prizes equality over freedom.  With the practice of "wealth re-distribution," for instance, the individual freedom of personal ownership is sacrificed at the alter of social equality. 

*** Vote Lostboy '08 *** 

The slayer line wasn't stable before season seven.  The First made its first strike in "Amends" season three (The First brought Angel back to kill Buffy), after Buffy's death/resurrection in season one.  It made its second strike in season seven after another death/resurrection.  Whether or not the precedent was intentional it exists.  One could argue the longer the death the greater the strike, or two slayers equals little imbalance but hundreds equals wide open door, or any number of theories.

And the bit with Beljoxa's eye was merely an explanation.  They didn't have to do anything with it because The First had already made its move and you are right - I think they just decided to let it go and focus on the battle at hand, but it doesn't change the fact that it was Buffy being alive that gave The First the in (possibly both times).  Or at least, that's the reason the writers gave.  Again, I've said this before - season seven was full of plot points that didn't exactly mesh well.

I see your point and yes, it's more of a political science discussion and I'm not sure exactly how to apply it to BtVS because one could use the show to argue several different positions.  Especially when looking at it from the perspective of group vs. the individual and etc.  

In my post, I was thinking along the lines of personal physical freedoms - the right to govern one's own body - because of the potential/slayer conversion.  I probably should have clarified.  I was also referring back to ncmil's comment about women's control of their own bodies and how is still in question today. With that in mind, I was simply pointing out if one gender group isn't free to make choices about their own bodies equality can't be achieved between the two. 

Having said that, a show with a feminist theme or agenda that removes choice or freedom or both from a group of girls in the finale is, poor writing aside, kinda stupid.

I mean, season after season the audience is hit over the head with this idea that long dead men chose to force this morbid mystical duty on young girls, generation after generation, not giving them a choice but to go out and fight and die.  Boo! Hiss! Bad men! Bad!  Then, in the final season, this idea is reiterated in "Get It Done" where Buffy mets the men that started it all, calls what they did a violation and kicks their butts. So, why is the audience supposed to suddenly think it's okay for Buffy to do it to not just one girl a generation but potentially hundreds of women in one generation?  Lack of chains and phallic-staff notwithstanding.  Is it okay 'cause she's a girl?  It just doesn't make sense.

Even if I ignore the plot inconsistencies, the lack luster writing and introduction of all those new characters which were really annoying, it doesn't change the fact they had Buffy acting wildly out of character making the decision to change the lives of women around the globe, forcing a destiny on them she never really wanted in the first place.  I have a hard time buying I'm-just-a-girl!Buffy from s5's "The Gift" choosing to drag hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent girls into her world.

I haven't read the comics because I want to buy them all at once.  I've heard both good and bad about them so I'm kinda iffy on whether or not I should even make the effort.  I sorta like my comfortable little world of mediocre acceptance of the last two seasons, and love for 1-5.  Adding an eighth into it might just make my brain melt.

~ Q

I don't know enough about the Communist Manifesto to make an informed comment either way, but we aren't addressing ownership or social equality in general as far as I can tell.  Or am I just not catching the connection?

The original comment was about Buffy's and Cordelia's choices on whether or not to be imbued with demonic essence and it sidetracked (probably my fault) to Buffy's decision to activate all the potentials by giving (or forcing - depending on your perspective) that same demonic essence down the line.  Equality came up because of the feminist themes in the show and I probably confused the issue a bit by tossing freedom in there.  But, again, I was thinking of freedom of choice in relation to gender issues (specifically control of one's body), not freedom in general.

~Q

Well, leaving aside that "Amends" has even more plot holes than season 7 when you try to make them line up, it doesn't seem to fit with the First's purpose in season 7. Beljoxa's Eye tells them that the First is using the disturbance "to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever." But in "Amends," it was trying to turn Angel evil again. No mention of potentials or ending the Slayer line (mostly because potentials hadn't been invented yet), and no raising of an army. (I still don't understand HOW this disturbance allows the First to do anything, but I suppose that's asking too much.)

Also, Giles and Anya's conversation afterwards gives the distinct impression that it's Buffy's resurrection that caused the disturbance. Anya says it's their fault - her and Xander and Willow and Tara - and Giles doesn't contradict her. Anya even brings up Buffy's first death, and that's not in any way indicated as being a problem.

I have a hard time buying I'm-just-a-girl!Buffy from s5's "The Gift" choosing to drag hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent girls into her world.

Well, for what it's worth, this is not the same Buffy from "The Gift." This Buffy is fundamentally changed (and I don't mean in the molecular sunburn kind of way), and has a dramatically different view of the world and what it means to be a Slayer. And while I don't necessarily think she made the right choice, as I explained above, given her outlook on being the Slayer at that point, I don't think it's out of character.

I think that is ultimately where my problem lies.  I have such a hard time accepting the character actions of s6 & s7 that I'm just automatically skeptical when it comes to anything they did or choices they made in those seasons.

If I suspend disbelief, swallow down my skepticism and just look at what they went through, Buffy in particular ... yeah, you're right.  Buffy of s7 would totally drag all those girls kicking and screaming into her world.

:(

But it doesn't mean I have to like it. ;)

~ Q

I think Buffy definitely did have good intentions in doing what she did, but I'm sure that some part of her was thinking selfishly. Creating thousands of Slayers means she doesn't have to go it alone anymore. But then again, it also means that no other Slayer will have to go through what she (and every Slayer before her) went through. It's hot chicks with super powers, without all the loneliness, sacrifices, and short life span. Yes, there are definite downsides (Dana is a prime example), but in Buffy's mind, I'm sure the positives outweighed the negatives.

in answer to guest "Q" perhaps the main problem is that in Chosen the metaphor took precedence over the earlier foundations of the story and so we end up with the Question of Rights of Choice.   Since I always viewed the series more from the perspective of mythic symbolism and how world mythic systems are reflected in the Buffyverse and our real world - I am perfectly satisfied with the ending of Chosen.  Looking at it from the complete cycle of The Heroes Journey and symbols of the life-death-resurrection forces - both Buffy and Spike pass through their journeys and rites of passage and their stories at the end fit within the symbolic parameters. 

But you are right - there is a big question of Freedoms of Choice and a many discrepancies with The Slayer's story.

Aside from any other questions surrounding the final story arc of The First - the simple logic of the Uber Vamp army over taking the human population - no way were the numbers needed for that scenario to have played out in the time 
frame of  this story.   But if we apply the every useful metaphor
we can say that Once there are enough people living in our world
willing to live their lives for only their needs and
desires even if those needs and desire are founded on
the destruction of Freedom of Choice and Equality to other people
the power of The First will indeed be made flesh - 

Wow, you people are deep.  Between Communist Manifesto, Equality vs Freedom, and mythic symbolism, I'm just gonna crawl away to my corner and get busy being dumb. :-(  *crawls away muttering Fire bad, Spike pretty*

One question I do have is this:  Was it ever really nailed down that the First brought Angel back?  I know it said it brought him back, but...  First Evil?  Probably ok with lying.  I always thought the Powers brought Angel back because it wasn't supposed to happen that way (as per Whistler) i.e. he wasn't supposed to go back to being Angelus, so wasn't supposed to get sent to Hell.

Not sure.  The First claimed it brought him back to kill Buffy, but it used the words "we brought you back" and wasn't too upset when Angel ran outside to kill himself.  I think we were supposed to assume The First was happy with the death of a champion - be it Buffy or Angel.  And that ultimately The Powers chose to save Angel with the snow storm blocking out the sun.  If the Powers were the ones that brought him back the writers didn't really leave us any definite clues in the episodes.  That I know of anyway.  But I'm no expert, by any stretch.

~ Q

 Is it okay 'cause she's a girl? 

Of all the things said...I latched on to that for some reason.  I would have to say yes, that because Buffy has a vagina, and a soul to boot, that makes all that she does okay.  Even when it's not--hey, it's just learning life, or ooh, she had good intentions behind it.  I agree--all of those other potentials lost their choice, and it was taken by Buffy.  But...I don't feel as if this is new at the same time. She's the general, and has to make the tough decisions, right?  Well, at the same time, she chooses the decisions that suit her, usually.  Season one, she accepts her "fate," and chooses to go die.  She follows the script, and willingly follows the annoying one.  But the seasons that follow that, well, she gets comfortable doing things her way and on her time table, and usually, that wasn't so much of the good.

I had more to say...but I've grown senile in my old age :P

Season Seven wasn't my favorite and the changes in characters and sometimes just unfit lines and decisions drove me crazy. A problem I had with Buffy's decisions was about the double-standard and I couldn't tell if it was intentional by the writers or just trying to fit into a plot schedule.

Buffy said that she would kill Dawn to save the world now, when before she was willing to sacrifice herself. She says that everyone is expendable for the greater good, pretty much. The demon essence was supposed to make her stronger, give her a lot more power, and a chance to beat the First. Basically, she decides that she doesn't want it in her, but puts it in a huge amount of other girls. Is it simply because she can't take orders or that she doesn't want to became less 'the girl' Buffy that she's already pretty far removed from by now? She's not willing to sacrifice whatever consequences are of accepting the demon essence that will affect her but she goes on about how she's willing to sacrifice other people's lives?

I don't know if she thought through making every Potential a Slayer. I mean, Faith? You can't just unleash that much power into so many people and expect everyone to be good. Without even the necessary Chosen One responsibility and tough decisions most girls I bet would just use the power carelessly and selfishly or for underhanded reasons. They probably gave people the superiority complex to do some real evil or at least move into the darkness. If given the choice, and knowing others are there to take up the slack, how many Potential-turned-Slayers would be willing to risk their lives constantly as an active Slayer? Are there enough Slayers to keep in check those who abuse the power Buffy unleashed? The entire world would change but it's like no one was thinking of the consequences, which doesn't show much growth from Season Six, after the apocalyptic battle.

I also want to point out so long as I'm ranting, that the Slayer powers aren't just super-strength. They include horrible dreams and prophecies and force girls into a world with demons and vampires and spells that could end up destroying them.