I've read a comment somewhere that the sole reason Buffy kept her relationship with Spike a secret was because she feared what her friends would think, and something about Xander and Willow controlling her love life. Is it really true? Or is it just some Scoobys-resentment comments?

Buffy didn't care what her friends thought as she publically dated Angel, she didn't care about Giles and Xander's objection to have Spike on board in season five Spiral. Why would she care now?

I think the reason she didn't tell anyone was because she was ashamed of Spike and her relationship with him. I agree she was worried about how her friends would react, but I don't think it was the main reason for her to keep it a secret. I also don't agree that Xander and Willow control her love life. Willow had always been supportive to Buffy's choices in men, except Parker, but then he caused Buffy pain. Xander only seemed to dislike Angel, for jealousy reasons, and Spike, for more complicated reasons, her other boyfriends? He was supportive, at least after he had Cordelia as a girfriend.

This is another one of those canon/fanon things.  The thing is, even in canon, Xander didn't like Spike, in spite of (or because of) having lived with him from time to time.  I think Buffy was ashamed - or felt that she should be. Partly because of the debacle that her relationship with Angel caused, partly because of the big "no soul" thing that pervades the series, and partly because she was having such a purely sexual relationship this time.   I don't know that Willow might not have tried to be supportive, she was never really given that opportunity on the show.  Xander wouldn't have; he just hated vampires and nothing Buffy did (except for those few weeks at the end of season V) gave anyone any reason to think that she had changed her own opinion of Spike.
So, I agree. I don't think her friends could control her relationships, nor do I think they would try all that hard. It was her own assumption that she was doing something wrong that made her keep him her "dirty little secret".

Plus there was the whole part about beating the sh*t out of him - I think she realized that, although Xander would probably cheer her on for an encore, tara and dawn would frown on her for severely beating someone who refuses to fight back.

I don't really think she cared about their opinion on the beating, Guest. Buffy had been beating information out of Spike since season five, and I assume they all know about it.

Slaymesoftly, I don't think Willow would unsupportive if Buffy chose to be with Spike. When Buffy told them Spike was in love with her, both Willow and Joyce freaked out, simply because Buffy was freaked out. When Tara told Willow that Buffy slept with Spike, Willow laughed it off because she thought Buffy would never do that, not because Spike was a "thing" or "soulless" but because Willow always thought Buffy hated Spike. I think Willow had always been about putting Buffy's feelings first when it came to relationships regardless of the guy she chose. Xander had always been protective, wishing the best guy for Buffy, someone who deserved her. Giles didn't really seem to care much about her boyfriend choices.

I believe the only reason giles was so gung ho on going as far as having spike killed ws because of his interest in buffy  and MOST importantly her feelings were changing. Had buffy stayed dead i believe spike would have been part of the team to this day.. more or less getting on with xander.

I always got the feeling that angelus/angel was only the last straw for xan when it came to vampires in their midst. I believe when their freind Jesse was turned he had to change his entire view on vampires in order to live whith what had to be done. (your looking at the thing that killed him)
Xander was inappropriatly jealous of the angel/buffy thing.. he really kreeped me out for some time back then. Spike was always so much more alive and showed so many more layers then, prejudice aside, xander could ver be comfortable with. I dont think he could live in that kind of world.. especially not with buffy in it.

I think they all (excluding dawn and anya) would have been very judgemental knowing of buffys relationship with spike, god forbid if it every went any deeper. I could actually see willow being so especially. To me s6 she always seemed inconsiderate and selfish enough, dont know if that was mostly due to plot holes. I think only with interference from Tara would willow even be willing to look at it from buffys point of view.

Had she always known how the first slayer was created, would there always have been that struggle? and just maybe s6 wouldnt have gone so dark. Her shame was what got to me the most, she deserved to be set freem from that ball and chain. Stupid watchers council. WHy did the nice gray haired guardians let them take over anyways?

I think Buffy was just a paranoid weirdo.  She wanted to be punished, and irrationally feared her friends would say "Shame on you!" if they knew.  Excluding Xander, that just wasn't the case.  She was so hung up on the idea that seeing Spike was the thing that was wrong, as opposed to what she was doing to him.  Dawn, Willow, and particularly Anya (cause then she and Xander could have someone to double date with) would've been okay with it, and Tara already expressed her lack of concern.  Xander, if told from the beginning, would've needed time, but I honestly feel he would have been okay with it eventually (and I'm sure someone would've pointed out the hypocrisy of him hating on Spike when Anya did over a hundred times more damage than the vampire could even conceive of).

Scarlet

Xander ... someone would've pointed out the hypocrisy of him hating on Spike when Anya did over a hundred times more damage than the vampire could even conceive of).

Plus the little fact that Anya was born a human willing chose that path whereas Spike was "born" a demon and is trying to be "good" - Anya was much worse but i guess she gets an out because she screwing him whereas Spike is screwing the girl he never seems to get over his high school crush.

TM

I think the "control" issue comes mainly (in canon) from season 3, when they did in fact give Buffy a hard time about dating Angel again, and flat out told her she was wrong to do so. In their defense, I think they had a pretty good reason for feeling that way at that point, but they eventually got over it, and I didn't really see this controlling aspect carry over into Buffy's other relationships.

I do, however, think that to some extent, Buffy felt she owed her friends a say in her relationships - after all, her last boyfriend almost killed them all. So, I think there was an internal element of control that Buffy put on herself to please her friends. She seems to take relationship cues from them, particularly with Riley - she thinks he's a "doof" until Willow encourages her to date him, and she's all ready to let him go until Xander tells her to run after him. She also stayed with him way longer than she should have, and although I'm sure there were other factors involved, I think part of it was that she kept him around because her friends liked him. She trusted their judgment more than her own, so if they liked him, he must be a good boyfriend for her. She did the same thing with Scott Hope - got involved in a relationship she didn't feel ready for because Willow encouraged it. I think Willow might've encouraged her with Parker, too.

I agree that what held her back from telling her friends about Spike was her own shame about the relationship, and I don't think it was entirely about Spike being a vampire. It's pretty clear from their eventual reactions that no one but Xander would've objected if she'd decided to date Spike the way she dated Angel or Riley. But I wonder how supportive they'd have been if they knew about the true nature of their relationship. 

I think Buffy's subconscious and conscious reasons from the very start of their physical relationship, which she started, shows signs of a deeply disturb woman - The intensity of her reactions and threats to kill Spike if he ever tells anyone shows extreme shame and guilt are signs, IMVHO, that their relationship from this point forward, reflects her mental state.   Is the insertion of Spike's lines about better than killing a slayer is fucking her (sorry for the paraphrase) primarily inserted to bring them back to the Angel/Agelus death metaphor - putting all Spike's love back into the death mode of Angelus? 

There is one very interesting aspect of this entire Love/Hate relationship when mythic symbols are applied - there Sex/Love/Hate journey can be interpreted as Spike/the hero trials and encounters with The Goddess Mother-Goddess Destroyer.  Applying this mythic perspective, Spike with his total acceptance of all the destructive quality of their relationship passes through the ultimate trial of the hero and his ultimate prize of being worthy to be the consort of The Mother Goddess - I think the alley scene is the climax of this mythic symbolic trials -

Smashed:

BUFFY: You really seem awfully fixated on a couple of kisses, Spike.SPIKE: And you seem awfully quick to forget about them.BUFFY: Look. I'm sorry, okay? I'm-I'm sorry if you thought that it meant more.
SPIKE: But...
BUFFY: But ... when I kissed you ... you know I was thinking about Giles, right?
SPIKE: You know, I always wondered about you two.
BUFFY: What? (makes a face) Oh, gross, Spike! (Spike frowns) He left. I was depressed. Ergo vulnerability and, and bad kissing decisions. (Spike still frowning) Okay, but, that's all that it was. You have to let it go.
SPIKE: (smirking) Did it work?
BUFFY: What?
SPIKE: You convince yourself?
BUFFY: (seriously) Please, stop.
SPIKE: A man can change.
BUFFY: You're not a man. You're a thing.
SPIKE: Stop walking away.
BUFFY: Don't touch me! 
BUFFY: You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing.

Wrecked :

BUFFY: The hurry is I left Dawn all night. And don't call me love.
SPIKE: You didn't seem to take issue with that last night. (smirking) Or with any of the other little nasties we whispered.
BUFFY: Can we not? Talk?
SPIKE: (sighs) I just don't see why you have to run off so quick. Thought we could- (waggling eyebrows)
BUFFY: Not gonna happen. Last night was the end of this freak show.
SPIKE: Don't say that.
BUFFY: What did you think was gonna happen? What, we're gonna read the newspaper together, play footsie under the rubble?SPIKE: (softly) Not exactly what I had in mind.Buffy pushes his hand away, struggles against him.BUFFY: Stop!
SPIKE: (grinning) Make me.
BUFFY: No! No!BUFFY: (pulling back) No, no, I-I have to-
SPIKE angrily) So, what now? You go back to treating me like dirt till the next time you get an itch you can't scratch? (Buffy just looks at him) Well, forget it. (fastening his belt) Last night changed things. I'm done being your whipping boy.
BUFFY: Nothing's changed. It was a mistake.
SPIKE: Bollocks! It was a bloody revelation.SPIKE: (walks closer to her) You can act as high and mighty as you like ... but I know where you live now, Slayer. (softly) I've tasted it.
BUFFY: Get a grip. Like you're god's gift.
SPIKE: (chuckling) Hardly. (stops smiling) Wouldn't be nearly as interesting, would it
BUFFY: No! Let me go!
SPIKE: I may be dirt ... but you're the one who likes to roll in it, Slayer. You never had it so good as me. Never.
Buffy pushes his arms off.
BUFFY: Uhh, you're bent. (moves past him to put on her jacket)
SPIKE: Yeah, and it made you scream, didn't it?
BUFFY: (very angrily) I swear to god, if you tell *anyone* about last night, I will kill you.
SPIKE: (skeptically) Right.
SPIKE: You're gonna want these, too.:

But I wonder how supportive they'd have been if they knew about the true nature of their relationship. 

I think that if they knew there even was a relationship, then Buffy and Spike's relationship wouldn't have been so sour.  Buffy was all about the self flagellation in s6, and used sex with "an evil, soulless thing" as her punishment, because she thought she was supposed to be ashamed.  If there's no secret, and there's no blame, then there's no shame, and no emotional or physical destruction, IMHO. 

I think that if she had told them from  the beginning, all of the women's reactions would've been similar to Tara's, I think, and I can still see Giles laughing about it hysterically in the "yeah, knew that was coming at some point" kind of way, and Xander saying "what? huh?" a bunch of times before getting over it in a couple of days. 

Is the insertion of Spike's lines about better than killing a slayer is fucking her (sorry for the paraphrase) primarily inserted to bring them back to the Angel/Agelus death metaphor...

I don't think so.  If you see that little moment from the beginning, Buffy's in a rush to leave, acting as if their night together meant nothing.  How does Spike get her to stay?  A pathetic excuse of him not being able to leave, which is total crap, but is all the reason she needs to stay and have more sex with him.  I think that Spike, being the sensitive vamp that he is, wanted to test that theory of that night meaning nothing (to her).  By saying that line, and seeing her clearly uspet reaction, he sees and now knows that last night did in fact mean something to some degree.  Note how he laughs at her reaction.  He wasn't all "Oops, I said something I shouldn't have.  Rats."  He knew what he was saying, cause he said it on purpose.

Buffy's callous treatment of him that morning is a clear role reversal--she wants to be the asshole in the morning after before he gets the chance to (though I don't believe he would've been--I know she's been burned twice in her morning afters, but she definitely jumped the gun on that one).  Spike wanted to prove that it wasn't just sex.  Cause if it was, saying that wouldn't have pissed her off so much.  If that had been Faith and he said that, she would've kept going, cause then it would've been all about the sex, and therefore, saying such a thing wouldn't have mattered.

I think that if they knew there even was a relationship, then Buffy and Spike's relationship wouldn't have been so sour.

I agree... if they'd known from the beginning. I was thinking more along the lines of what would happen if she'd come clean to everyone when she told Tara - or if Spike had followed through on one of his threats to tell during the latter stage of their relationship. I still think Xander wouldn't have been able to get past the "vampire" aspect, but the others, while okay with Spike in principle, wouldn't have been quite comfortable with the dirty sex and the abuse... which is, I think, one of the reasons we never see Buffy tell the full, sordid tale to anyone, even though Tara and Xander get pieces of it.

I think that Spike, being the sensitive vamp that he is, wanted to test that theory of that night meaning nothing (to her).

I never thought that. If it was a test, it wasn't a very good line to use. I mean, I can see Faith reacting casually the way you describe, but no matter what her feelings, I can't see Buffy letting that go. She was disgusted in "Fool For Love" when she realized he got off on killing the Slayers, so I think bringing that up, and comparing it to sex, was bound to make her mad no matter what the context. Plus, if he was just testing her, he wouldn't have continued with the "vampires get you hot" bit - which pretty much sets him up for rejection.

I always thought of that line as Spike putting his big foot in his mouth - as he tends to do. It's neither the first nor the last time he says something that pisses her off and ruins the mood. To me, it reads as Spike trying to express what it meant to him, in his sloppy, vampiric way. We've already seen in "Fool For Love" that the greatest moments of his life were killing those two Slayers - and this was better. But he and Buffy don't relate on the same level, and what he sees as a compliment, she sees as a disgusting comparison.

You're right that he doesn't fall over himself to apologize, though, and I think that's because she does tell him something with her reply - but not something he was looking for. If she'd been just pissed about the reminder that he's killed two Slayers, she would've chastised him for that. But the way she says it - "That's what this was about? Doing a Slayer?" - she ought to know it's not. He's been in love with her for a year, and she should know that. But the fact that that's what she fixates on illustrates her insecurity, her expectation that it's just about sex to him, because that's what she expects of all men. If he were a smart vampire, he'd have come back with "You know it's not" or something - anything that wasn't taunting her and practically begging her to bring up Angel. But he just keeps trying to swallow his ankle instead.

the others, while okay with Spike in principle, wouldn't have been quite comfortable with the dirty sex and the abuse... which is, I think, one of the reasons we never see Buffy tell the full, sordid tale to anyone

But that isn't really a Spike/vampire problem--it's a Buffy problem.  They'd just probably harp on the whole "Did she come back wrong?" thing, which wouldn't be good, but if they were to chastise her, it wouldn't be about who it was with, so much as what she was doing.

If it was a test, it wasn't a very good line to use.

Lol--never said it was a good idea.  Spike usually puts his foot in his mouth, or tries to come up with the best possible way to piss her off, so if my theory was correct, there's no way he wouldn't lay it on thick.  Plus, there are some bits of that conversation that didn't make the final cut (because of time and not content).  I think they would help in analyzing the situation more fully, and would make for an interesting new thread.  E, if you find the "Wrecked" dailies of that scene...could you post them in a new thread?

Oh also...I think someone mentioned this on another thread, but Spike probably wasn't wrong--the whole "slaying makes you hungry and horny" thing.  I've started season 3, and in "Hope, Faith and Trick," Buffy looks uncomfortable when this is first brought up, but when it's just her and Faith alone after killing Kakistos, she at leasts admits to being hungry, and not for something of the "lowfat yogurt" variety (I assume).  I think Spike's fought her enough times to know that she does in fact "get hot" while fighting vamps, or at least, while fighting him.  The night before does pretty much prove his statement to a degree.

SPIKE angrily) So, what now? You go back to treating me like dirt till the next time you get an itch you can't scratch? (Buffy just looks at him) Well, forget it. (fastening his belt) Last night changed things. I'm done being your whipping boy.
BUFFY: Nothing's changed. It was a mistake.
SPIKE: Bollocks! It was a bloody revelation.SPIKE: (walks closer to her) You can act as high and mighty as you like ... but I know where you live now, Slayer. (softly) I've tasted it.
BUFFY: Get a grip. Like you're god's gift.
SPIKE: (chuckling) Hardly. (stops smiling) Wouldn't be nearly as interesting, would it
BUFFY: No! Let me go!
SPIKE: I may be dirt ... but you're the one who likes to roll in it, Slayer. You never had it so good as me. Never.
Buffy pushes his arms off.
BUFFY: Uhh, you're bent. (moves past him to put on her jacket)
SPIKE: Yeah, and it made you scream, didn't it?
BUFFY: (very angrily) I swear to god, if you tell *anyone* about last night, I will kill you.

What I think Buffy really is disturb about and hates is Spike putting them together as equals - She Keeps  In Her Mind that he is evil, disgusting thing and Spike is telling her that they  share the same passion, desires, and needs.  This being on the same level is what , IMO, Buffy cannot allow herself to even remotely accept - this is why we have that breakdown with Tara - not that she might love Spike or have any potential feeling of love, but how & why can she share any of the things she finds utterly disgusting in Spike.  Spike's "I know where you live," has enormous significance to her.  It is this continual struggle to eradicate any possible equality that is reflected in her dreams of sex, love, and potential killing of Spike.

I've seen those dailies, but I may have been distracted by the JM ass shots. :) I do remember there being extra lines, but not the details... I think if it were something that changed the meaning of the scene/interaction in any way, it probably would've stuck. I'm not about to look for the clips, though, since my computer's fucked up and I can't play videos. I'm pretty sure someone posted YouTube links on the forum at some point, but I couldn't tell you which thread.

Also, I think there's a difference between "slaying makes you horny" and "vampires get you hot." Faith wasn't talking about fucking a vampire - it's just the fighting that gets her hot, not the opponent. It doesn't matter what she's fighting, she's gonna go off and find a human to sleep with, kind of how Buffy and Riley have sex for the first time after slaying the Polgara demon. Spike's in a whole different realm with his comment - he's saying Buffy has a vampire kink (which she very well might). It's not that the fighting gets her hot (though, again, it very well might), it's the undead status of her sexual partners that he's commenting on. 

What I think Buffy really is disturb about and hates is Spike putting them together as equals - She Keeps  In Her Mind that he is evil, disgusting thing and Spike is telling her that they are share the same passion, desires, and needs.

I think you may be on to something there.  This reminds me of when Spike calls her an animal and how she makes it hurt in all the wrong places.  She can compare and contrast that tidbit silently, and she had to know that he wasn't as violent when they were together as she was.

Also, I think there's a difference between "slaying makes you horny" and "vampires get you hot."   This is true--Spike could very well be referring to her fighting vamps (cause he's been in close proximity when she fought other vampires, as well as in close proximity to when she was with Riley, so I'm sure he can gage how hot she was in this instance, and how hot she wasn't in another).

Interestingly, despite the whole "slaying makes you horny" theory, Buffy and Spike's sex doesn't generally come after a fight. The first time, yes, but after that, when we see the context, Buffy is rarely worked up from a fight (either with Spike or anyone else), and in fact, she's often tired. Buffy is still patrolling during this period, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to turn her on enough to go to Spike. She also rarely fights Spike himself, and never as foreplay.

Gone - She comes to his crypt while invisible. She pushes him around a bit at first, but nothing like an actual get-your-blood-pumping fight.
Doublemeat Palace - Sex in the alley on Buffy's break. No fighting.
Dead Things - Sex on the balcony at the Bronze. No fighting. (They also have sex in the beginning of the episode, but we don't know what was happening before that.)
As You Were - Against the tree after Buffy comes home from work. She does stop to stake a vampire on the way, but she seems more exhausted than turned on. The second time, when she goes to his crypt, she's been patrolling with Sam, but doesn't appear to actually fight anything, so I can't see her being very worked up.

Also, another reason why I don't think Spike's "vampires get you hot" was referring to Buffy getting aroused while fighting vampires - his first remark along those lines is that she's a "groupie." You can't really be considered a groupie of a group that you kill on a regular basis. I think Spike is specifically referring to her tendency to have sex with certain vampires, and not some general "fighting gets Buffy hot" commentary.

Spike's "I know where you live," has enormous significance to her.

That line has two different meanings, one meaningful and one sexual.  First, Spike's pointing out that he now knows what makes Buffy tick, what going on inside of her head, what she's feeling.  Second, when followed by the next sentence (I've tasted it), Spike's referring to sex, specifically, oral sex.  Ever hear the phrase, "Hit him where he lives?"  I've always heard it as referring to hitting below the belt (i.e., the groin area).  If Spike has tasted where Buffy lives, then...well, you get the picture ;-)

Tangent: This is totally off topic, but I've noticed that the writers used various euphemisms for referring to things that networks used to cut in those days.  Like when Spike tells Buffy that she's had him by the short hairs.  Outside of Spike's colorful use of the English language, he's saying that Buffy has him by the balls.  How true...

Back to the topic: I've seen those dailies, but I may have been distracted by the JM ass shots. :) I do remember there being extra lines, but not the details

In the extra lines, Spike tells Buffy that she would do well to remember that he can hurt her now.  I don't remember what Buffy says 'cause I, too, was distracted by Jimmy's backside (god bless dailies :happy: )  Maybe the deleted it from the final cut because it sounds like Spike's threatening Buffy.

Ever hear the phrase, "Hit him where he lives?" I've always heard it as referring to hitting below the belt (i.e., the groin area).

I've actually never heard that phrase. I've always heard it as, "Hit him where it hurts." Which would be the same place, lol.

Another thing in a similar vein as the euphemisms - they also got away with a lot by using British slang. Bollocks and bloody are actually kinda bad curses (certainly not used as often as some Americans like to write in Spike's speech). I don't know if they get bleeped on British TV, since they tend to allow more than American censors, but I'd say they're equivalent to bleepable words here. Also, Spike's "two-finger salute" is the British version of the middle finger, which I'm pretty sure isn't allowed on network TV.

I've heard it, but usually when I do, it's in reference to the people around that person, like family or something.  But I get what IB means :P

There were a lot of subtle touches on the show that alluded to sex.  However I only recall one--in "Wrecked," when Buffy finally gets home, she's in the kitchen, talking to Willow, and she sits down easily on the stool, which implied....something to me in regards to her previous nights activities.  Or on Angel--Angel subtly takes off his suit jacket to discreetly cover his unwavering erection.  Yeah, that's all I got to say about that ;)

As for curse words, well, I don't know how the British channels worked that aired Buffy...but maybe they showed it on their F/X equivalent?  I mean, if you see the stuff they show on F/X (the word "shit" is everywhere, tons of loud sex, violence, more sex and maybe the middle finger), and the British are more liberal than us, then all of Spike's curse words and gestures should've been fine.

Eow - Americans haven't got a clue what bloody actually means, which is why they were able to sneak it by.  Bollocks is American expression but not used much, maybe old fashioned and possibly a lot of people don't recognize that one either.   I'd never seen the two finger (bowfinger according to someone) salute and didn't get it at all.  I knew it was insulting in some way.  I think I saw it explained on wikipedia. 

he is evil, disgusting thing and Spike is telling her that they  share the same passion, desires, and needs - I think part of Buffy's problem is that in order to become a Slayer, she took on some kind of demon essence and she's afraid that she's part demon or part animal, and that demon might get out of control, which is why she has to reject Spike.

the stuff they show on F/X (the word "shit" is everywhere, tons of loud sex, violence, more sex and maybe the middle finger)

Yay for FX!   They have all my favorite shows.  Gotta love it when the warnings at the beginning of the show have sex, violence, mature language, and nudity :-)

think part of Buffy's problem is that in order to become a Slayer, she took on some kind of demon essence and she's afraid that she's part demon or part animal, and that demon might get out of control, which is why she has to reject Spike.

Buffy doesn't know that the slayer essence has demon origin until "Get It Done" in Season Seven.  Spike does tell her that she came back wrong because the chip no longer works on her.  Since he can't hurt humans, the idea that Buffy resurrects as a demon would be the natural assumption.

"Hit him where he lives" means to use the things that are important to someone against them.

As for the show being aired with all Spike's swearing (in countries that actually KNOW what he's saying), *shrugs* he's not swearing THAT badly. Buffy was shown on our normal free to air stations (originally in a prime time slot but it eventually got moved to the late night slot as new, more popular shows took its place) and carried a M (15+) rating over here for 'medium level violence, medium level sex scenes, sexual references and supernatural themes... no warning about the language, but then we don't tend to get our knickers in a knot over a bit of mild swearing. lol

Buffy doesn't know that the slayer essence has demon origin until "Get It Done" in Season Seven. Spike does tell her that she came back wrong because the chip no longer works on her. Since he can't hurt humans, the idea that Buffy resurrects as a demon would be the natural assumption.

Yep, that's why Tara's news is so devastating - Buffy had convinced herself that it wasn't really her doing all the bad stuff with Spike. It was some not-completely-human version of her. The real Buffy would never sleep with an unsouled vampire, or get off on dirty or kinky sex, or blatantly use someone for sex. But when Tara tells her that she didn't actually come back wrong, Buffy is forced to admit that those wants and desires are really a part of her, and not some demonic side effect of resurrection.