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Watched PG tonight - it is really interesting to go back to this first season having all the knowledge of the series.  It was really interesting was watching PG and "When She Was Bad" together.  They really are so closely connected that we should probably watch both for the discussion. Together they give some very good information on how Buffy falls into "Bitchy Buffy Mode" and how her personal issues  will begin to cause bad slayer decisions - Great ending with Giles and foreshadow of all the horrors that come with her relationship with Angel and Angelus. 

Interesting in idea in PG and how Buffy feels stronger after being resurrected - Buffy is reborn as The Hero Slayer, one that has fully accepted her role and has the attain the freedom that comes with fully accepting her potential death - There is no more powerful warrior, than one that faces death and accepts their potential death.  Found it an interesting point  that irrespective of the prophecy, she mentions that she may live through the confrontation -

That's a smart idea to watch Prophecy Girl and When She Was Bad together, think I'm going to do that tonight.

Yeah that is a good idea, I need to do that too, I was also thinking yes Buffy did says she felt stronger, so why did they never really touch on why. I am sure that is something GIles would have loved to research and might have even over the summer when she was gone, with her father.

Sandra

I had forgotten that Buffy actually took a vacation - where did all the vamps & demons go?  I know that the theme of her divorced parents was part of the characters that were being developed, but this idea of taking a vacation from slaying seems counter productive to all the "this is your sacred duty" speehifying that Giles does.  Plus I wish that there had been a little more exploration of why Buffy decides on the "let's go bitchy & the slutty dancer" - all that about trying to make  Angel jealous?  One thing that we do see is that Buffy from the very start can easily go into the dark places of her character.   That dance scene with Xander, whether appropriate or not, made me think of how she uses sex and body with Spike.  What she was doing to Xander and Willow was secondary to her immediate need. 

And what a WOW  Xander when he tells her he will kill her if anything happens to Willow - Xander Pack Man not so far away after all.  It was so sad to see this I Love Xander Willow - especially at the Bronze when we see the contrast of the first Ice Cream scene with Bronze "something on your nose" - still, it's a good thing that their kiss did not happen, as Xander is clearly still totally in Buffy, I Want Mode. 

PG is one of Xander's truly shining moments of the entire series - that scene is a great foreshadow for the Buffy can't be saved from her isolation as The Slayer from Angel.

I had forgotten that Buffy actually took a vacation - where did all the vamps & demons go? I know that the theme of her divorced parents was part of the characters that were being developed, but this idea of taking a vacation of slaying seems counter productive to all the "this is your sacred duty" speehifying that Giles does.

I think there's some explanation to the effect of, after the big bad is defeated, things quiet down for a while - and since the big bad is always defeated in May, that conveniently gives Buffy the summer off. We can see in "When She Was Bad" that the Master's minions are only starting to regroup and attempt to resurrect him - I imagine they were lying low for a few months, licking their wounds and probably duking it out over which one of them would become the new leader.

Of course, as the series goes on, summers become less uneventful. Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia have obviously been working pretty hard to slay vampires in Buffy's absence in "Anne," and the gang must have done enough slaying while Buffy was dead to get a whole routine worked out with Willow doing the telepathic thing in "Bargaining." Also, I think Buffy comments on how she's been going out slaying a lot at the beginning of season five. This is also in keeping with the general increase in vampires and demons in Sunnydale as the series goes on - in season 1, Buffy's shocked to stake three vampires in one night. By the later seasons, that's a slow night. Kind of backwards, since you'd think the presence of the Slayer would drive demons away - and the better Buffy gets, the more she'd be able to kill, thinning the herd. More of a product of Joss needing to up the ante than anything else, I imagine.

One thing that we do see is that Buffy from the very start can easily go into the dark places of her character. That dance scene with Xander, whether appropriate or not, made me think of how she uses sex and body with Spike.

In some ways, "When She Was Bad" is pretty much a microcosm of season six. I guess it's proportional - dead for a few minutes, Buffy's bitchy for an episode. Dead for several months, and it takes an entire season to get over it.

In some ways, "When She Was Bad" is pretty much a microcosm of season six. I guess it's proportional - dead for a few minutes, Buffy's bitchy for an episode. Dead for several months, and it takes an entire season to get over it.

I agree.  I think part of the problem is that in "When She was Bad," her recklessness and callousness eventually endangers her friends, and Xander, not shy at all, calls her on her shit.  It kind of put things in perspective, and she gets it together by the end of the episode.  In season six, you don't really have that.  Everyone is pretty much oblivious to everyone else. And her friends, for the first time ever, aren't in danger of something that's supernatural, so there's nothing to pull back from, and therefore nothing to "show the way."  I'm thinking that if the Master was never about to be resurrected, putting in motion certain events, then Buffy would have had no friends by the end of episode three of season two.

Also, I don't exactly get why dying would turn her into an asshole.  Traumatic, sure, but what does that have to do with the mega personality shift? 

Yeah, like Cordelia says "Whatever your trauma, get over it!"  A near death experience effects people in a lot of ways, but to be super bitch after a whole summer to deal with it? Yeah, that's typical.......

One thing with her going away for a big part of the summer is that it's common for dads to have a month in summer as part of a standard custody agreement, at least here in CA, so as long as he's willing to take her.....

What she did to Xander is one of the reasons I don't really like Buffy much as a person. It was terribly cruel. Even Cordy isn't that much of a dick tease. If she wants to explore her sexuality as a walk on the wilder side, okay, but you don't deliberately hurt one of, or both, your best friends to do it.

CM

Prophecy Girl:

- Back in time, seeing three vampires in one night is something to be afraid of. Later in the Series, seeing three vampires in one night, as Eowyn said, is like a slow night. I noticed that while watching the episode, felt a little let down that you guys figured it out already.

- I think Buffy handled the situation with Xander impressively for a sixteen year old girl. It reminded me of how she rejected Satsu in season eight.

- The Music of Pain bit never failed to make me laugh.

- Giles is a watcher at heart, he still didn't develop the fatherly feelings for Buffy, yet. I love that his feelings for Buffy developed very slowly.

- Angel knew that Buffy was about to die, yet he's sitting in his house sulking?

- I hate retcons. In Angel, Angelus didn't give a notice to The Master, but here, Angel is about to pee his pants. He doesn't want to face The Master and rescue Buffy until Xander talked him into it.

- I agree that Prophecy Girl is the episode where Xander shines. He's so damned brave when one of his friends is in danger. That's loyalty.

- Cordelia also showed great character development in this episode.

Easy for Angelus to have the bravado on his first meeting with the Master. Not so for souled Angel much, much later.

CM

I hate retcons. In Angel, Angelus didn't give a notice to The Master, but here, Angel is about to pee his pants. He doesn't want to face The Master and rescue Buffy until Xander talked him into it.

Was his behavior during PG ever explained in season 2 - is the explanation for Angel's lack of attempt to save Buffy (before Xander's intervention) that he believes in destiny and prophecy - Is he suppose to really love Buffy or is all that desire to kiss her and want her only a sign of his sexual desires.  This early Angel treatment  in The Master Arc is one of the reasons that I never quite fell into the Buffy-Angel-Forever mode.  I was frankly very disappointed with Buffy's lines in Chosen and how she still sometimes thinks about being in a romantic relationship with Angel - it felt like Buffy was still holding on to romantic illusions.  Makes the ending of Chosen and Spike's sacrifice and his "no you don't..." so poignant.  The last cemetery scene with Angel and Buffy gives credence to Spike's belief that she does not love him.  While  the visual symbols give  truth of their final joining, those lines of still thinking on Angel contradict the idea that she does love him.  Buffy's scene with Xander and her "killing Angel was the hardest thing I ever did" (sorry for the paraphrase) is another brutal slap to any idea of real or deep love for Spike. 

We do have all this foreshadowed by Cassie - the writers make it very difficult to accept that Buffy had a deep love for Spike if you factor in these two scenes - I felt like I was seeing two different stories in Chosen, one told in visuals & myth and one told in words only. 

How did this series go from Giles' - a vampire in love with a slayer; poetic (paraphrase) to the auto mode Spike is nothing but an disgusting animal and killer.  Did Giles know that Angel is cursed when he gives that line?  I guess Buffy gives him the en-souled vampire tale by this time. 

is the explanation for Angel's lack of attempt to save Buffy (before Xander's intervention) that he believes in destiny and prophecy - Is he suppose to really love Buffy or is all that desire to kiss her and want her only a sign of his sexual desires. 

I'm thinking that Angel was really big on the whole prophecy and destiny thing (of course, his feelings change as the years pass, but everyone should learn and grow anyway, so who cares?).  I seriously doubt it had anything to do with sexual desires--Angel is obscenely repressed, and even more so after he's re-ensouled.

Also, Giles never refers to Spike specifically as a disgusting animal and a killer (in fact, he let's Spike live with him, whereas with Angel, he's hardly comfortable with having him visit his house after the events of s2), and his assesment of a vampire being in love with a slayer as being poetic is before Jenny's murder, and before he was tortured at the hands of Angelus.

That was me--Scarlet.

Also, I don't exactly get why dying would turn her into an asshole. Traumatic, sure, but what does that have to do with the mega personality shift?

I think it's because she still has a lot of anger and resentment about dying, and about being put in the position where she knows it's probably going to happen again soon. It probably doesn't help that she's been with her dad all summer, so she obviously hasn't been able to talk about it, and all these feelings are just festering. And I don't think it's her friends being in danger that really snaps her out of it - it's dusting a crapload of vamps and smashing the Master's bones to ash. What she really needs is to vent her frustrations, but in the absence of a bad guy to fight, she lashes out at everyone around her.

I hate retcons. In Angel, Angelus didn't give a notice to The Master, but here, Angel is about to pee his pants. He doesn't want to face The Master and rescue Buffy until Xander talked him into it.

I'm assuming you mean Angel: the Series, not "Angel" the episode... Angel's fear of the Master was established right away. In "Welcome to the Hellmouth," Buffy says, "Well, if this Harvest thing is such a suckfest why don't you stop it?" and Angel replies, "'Cause I'm afraid." As for why Angelus wasn't afraid... well, Angelus was kind of a pompous jackass. But Angel with a soul (until he's influenced by Buffy) is all-around more timid and tries to avoid getting into fights with other vampires. He knows the Master could probably kill him easily, and he'd like to avoid that. Angelus was too full of himself to care.

How did this series go from Giles' - a vampire in love with a slayer; poetic (paraphrase) to the auto mode Spike is nothing but an disgusting animal and killer. Did Giles know that Angel is cursed when he gives that line? I guess Buffy gives him the en-souled vampire tale by this time.

I was thinking more about the entire series and especially how this change in attitude is so drastically different in later seasons.  It would have been great to have had Giles investigate the nature of Spike and Angelus more in the series, especially after Spike gets his soul back.  It would have been a very interesting subtext to Spike connections with the Scoobies and his interaction with Buffy.  Giles as a watcher would naturally have been interested in the entire process a vampire's soul restoration - especially as Spike was the initiator of that process.

I guess there was so much going on in season seven for Giles to have time and do researches on vampires and their souls.

Did Giles know that Angel is cursed when he gives that line?

Yes, he did. Otherwise, he wouldn't have allowed Angel to interact with them, and he probably would've demanded that Buffy slay him, regardless of her feelings for him. And it's the soul that makes it poetic, rather than disturbing or unnatural. If it had been any other vampire, I really doubt Giles would've found it poetic, even in season 1, before any of the stuff with Angelus happened.

I was thinking more about the entire series and especially how this change in attitude is so drastically different in later seasons.

I don't think it's really all that different. Other than Angel, who had a soul and was therefore in a different category from other vampires, Buffy and the Scoobies have always seen vampires as animals and killers. That's exactly why Buffy slays them. The problem with Spike is that he doesn't fit into either category - he can't be a killer because of the chip, but he can't be good like Angel because he doesn't have a soul. Since the chip was an involuntary restraint, more often than not, Spike gets grouped in with all other vampires, even thought he begins to act more like Angel.

It would have been great to have had Giles investigate the nature of Spike and Angelus more in the series, especially after Spike gets his soul back.

I think they were a little too preoccupied with not being slaughtered by the First to bother with Giles doing research on Spike.

Cool foreshadowing - there's guy dancing in the Bronze and later sitting in front of Buffy in class who's thin, cheekboney and has bleach blonde hair. 

Important changes - Buffy finally got some cool clothes, she lost her puppy fat and they finally gave her a decent hairdo. 

I am more and more convinced that Buffy is just visiting the Hellmouth between bouts in the insane asylum.

In the Pack, Xander tells Willow that before Buffy came to Sunnydale, they didn't need much saving.  At the beginning of Bad Girls episode, Xander and Willow are strolling by the cemetery at night in a la la la la la mood.  A vampire comes up and Buffy appears.  Xander and Willow haven't see a vampire all summer - it's been boring. (Yet, there's a nest in the factory - have they been fasting?)  Buffy herself hasn't killed a vampire while she was in Los Angeles.  Giles is concerned that she's out of shape. 

There's the conversation between Buffy's parents which could be interpreted to mean their concern over her mental stability and their own inability to handle the situation. 

There's Willow's ice cream nose which looks very like the Scarecrow's nose in Wizard of Oz..  There's the reference to The Terminator.  Sarah Connor ends up in an insane asylum before her grown son and his robot bust her out. 

Finally, there's Cordelia's speech to Buffy.  Buffy's traumatized because she's back in the land of mental demons. and she's forced to fight the things that frighten her.

Yes indeed, you are right,  Giles and all were too busy trying to stay alive and fight The First but it would have been a wonderful part of this great series - Sounds like a great story just wanting to be created.  I can already see Giles in earnest discussion with Anya and Lorne about demons and their true natures contrasted to only the CofW knowledge and perceptions.

In honor of Valentine' s Day do with want to watch FFL and Something Blue maybe IOHEFY or maybe AtS - Darla?
 
What does anyone think about breaking from the chronological order for the next episode discussion?

When She was Bad:

- Before Xander and Willow were about to kiss, Xander actually wanted to pull back, as if he was thinking it through. Unlike Buffy who's not attracted to Xander at all, Xander is attracted to Willow, but is obviously nervous that a relationship with her may complicate their friendship.

- Buffy is traumatized by the fact that she was dead and scared of The Master, she's hiding her fears from her friends, but can't hide that she's blaming them, especially Giles, for what had happened to her.

- The Sexy Dance with Xander was... sexy. Buffy managed to hurt three people at once, all who love her dearly. She used Xander to hurt Angel, and at the same time hurt Willow.

- Buffy using Xander reminds me of season six when she used Spike. Xander was the one who saved her life and she cruelly tells him that she never thanked him "Don't you wish I would?". Xander's angry hurt stare at the roof as he danced with Buffy is very well acted by Nicholas Brendon, it really made me feel for Xander.

- Buffy torturing the female vampire can be a forshadow to how she's gonna treat Spike in the future.

- Friends come first with Xander. While Buffy is the love of his life, Willow's well being comes first. It's a theme that will follow throughout the show. Buffy and Willow, the friends, come before Anya and Cordelia, the girlfriends. Maybe because Buffy and Willow represent family, something Xander never had and will never take for granted.

- I loved Giles' grossed out reaction to drinking the pink soda.

- Angel the stalker visiting Buffy's room at night, some would see it as romantic, I see it as creepy.

- "The one who sees", Xander shows great insight in this episode. "Is it over?" Willow asks, looking down at Buffy when the fight was over.  "Not yet," Xander answeres knowingly, as Buffy smashes the bones of The Master.

- It was sweet when Willow and Xander accepted Buffy back without making much of a fuss in the end of the episode. They proved to be loyal, forgiving friends.

I would say no to the going out of order. I don't think Valentine's Day warrants a special discussion - particularly since none of those episodes are even set during on Valentine's Day. I think the only V-Day episode is "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered," which I don't think is remarkable enough to warrant a special discussion.

What was next on the list for season two?  Really, someone should just post a thread for it...otherwise, it'll never get done.  I've already opened the first three, and have no qualms opening the next if no one minds.  I'm guessing the next ep might be "School Hard," and I'd reccommend "Lie to Me," "Ted," "Surprise/Innocence," "Passion," "I Only Have Eyes for You," and "Becoming 1 & 2" for season two.

We hadn't gotten around to deciding which season two episodes to discuss. "When She Was Bad" just got lumped into this discussion because someone mentioned it further up.

I agree with your choices - I don't know if anyone else has other suggestions, but that's already a pretty substantial list.

Alright then--I'll start a new thread, and mention those suggestions.  If anyone has an objection, well, I'm sure they'll voice it, and we can work from there.

Buffy torturing the female vampire  - Did anyone notice that Buffy uses the big cross that Angel gave her to torture the female vampire.  The next day in school, Buffy is wearing a different cross. 

The suggested list for Season is fine with me - I will get started on School Hard -

Does this mean that "Nightmares" is off the list now?  Still think that doing a general dreamscape episodes discussion  would be interesting, maybe once we finish with Season Two episodes - I do think that it is a good idea to keep things in chronological order. 

I thought we were saving "Nightmares"' for some sort of dreamscape group of eps ("Restless" and "Normal Again") for later...  When "later" is exactly wasn't discussed, I don't think.

This would be my preference, watch all the dreamscape episodes together and then discuss - I would go with after season 2 episodes - Let's just make this official unless we hear different from the site moderators -

I don't think the site moderators are really paying any attention. Even if they were, they're not going to tell us what episodes to talk about. We can pretty much discuss whatever we want.