This is just something I got thinking about after watching 'As You Were'. Why, when she breaks up with him, does Buffy call Spike 'William'? I thought it might be one of two things:

1) By calling him William, she's trying to talk to the man, not to the vampire. The vampire is used to hearing this speech and isn't necessarily going to believe her, so by talking to the man, she's hoping to get through to him.

2) She wants to soften the blow? Maybe by calling him 'William', she's acknowledging him as a man and not just a vampire.

Any other (better) ideas?

I think it's mostly 2. By calling him William she acknowledges both him and his feelings. To me that was the point at which she stopped seeing him as a vile thing and saw him as a man, but still couldn't be with him, cuz the reasons to be with him were all wrong.

Or maybe that's my wishful thinking!

xxx 

To me it seemd perticularly cruel at the time, to drive the point home in such a way.(nr. 1)
That truly staked him i believe, but it did as intended. And i think he respected her for it, shortly there after anyways, no matter how screwed up it turned later. I do believe it shatterd any dillusions he had and  that it drove him dangerously desperate, which we see later on in "the act" that never shuld have been.

 

I believe it is away for her to tell herself too that it is only William can love, since she has told him he can't love Vampires can't love. So if she called him William she was telling herself she was letting the man he was down an not the Vampire.

Okay going back into hiding.

I'm actually proud of Buffy at this moment, she knows she was using him, hurting him, treating him like dirt, and knows that it's wrong on so many levels. Best thing is to stop. I think by calling him William, she was telling him that she wasn't seeing him as less than her, they were two people, and what she was doing to him was cruel. She really grew in my eyes in that scene.

I have to agree with SpikeHot. Break-ups always hurt someone - that doesn't mean they're not necessary. Much as we love Spuffy, their relationship on the show was abusive and dysfunctional, and the best thing Buffy could do for him is walk away. She didn't love him, and she couldn't put herself in a real relationship with him, so ending things was the only viable option. And for Buffy to go from "Why do I let him do those things to me?" (making Spike the instigator) to "I'm using you" is a big admission, and a rare brush with honesty in Buffy's feelings for Spike.

I don't think she called him William to be cruel or to denigrate his vampire side as unable to love - I think the opposite. She was trying to express that she'd come to view him as a person, not a thing, who deserved to be treated with respect and couldn't be used by her. Isn't that what she's apologizing for, why she's breaking up with him? Why wouldn't calling him William be consistent with that?

Buffy doesn't need to try to be cruel to do so. I think she thought of Spike as not having feelings and not being a real person to excuse how she treated him. When she called him William and apologized, and later said that his feelings were real... for him, Buffy was admitting Spike was a person with real feelings and emotions. Saying that their relationship was killing her was because she knew his feelings would mean it would make him pause when he said he didn't mind how he was being used.
Even if she wasn't trying to be cruel or put him in his place, calling him William and admitting his feelings only to break his heart was cruel. It was like admitting he was a man instead of just a vampire, but saying that that man wasn't enough. Spike thought he could show her he was good and she'd allow herself to love him, only she admitted he could be good and acted like that wasn't enough or it didn't make enough of a difference because he was still a vampire.
Also, this has more to do with my preference for fics, but saying that after Spike's mistakes and trying to bring her into the darkness made me feel like she saw a split in the Spike-William like Angel-Angelus. She was apologizing to a small part of him with feelings and not to him as a person, including the demon that loved her. I don't know if she did it to make herself feel better; not saying that Spike the vampire really loved her but that only a small part of him was more human and was capable of it.

It was like admitting he was a man instead of just a vampire, but saying that that man wasn't enough.

Well, isn't that the truth? She's not in love with him - she's not even stable enough to have a healthy relationship with anyone, let alone someone who brings as much baggage and history as Spike. What exactly was she supposed to do in this situation? How exactly do you break up with someone who's in love with you and make it not hurt?

Spike thought he could show her he was good and she'd allow herself to love him, only she admitted he could be good and acted like that wasn't enough or it didn't make enough of a difference because he was still a vampire.

I don't think that's the case. She doesn't say, "I can't do this anymore, because you love me but you're a vampire." She doesn't say, "I know you can be good, but that's not enough for me." She says, "I'm using you. I can't love you." Not "I don't love you" - I can't. She's not capable of it right then. She's breaking up with him because she has issues with herself, and Spike enabling it is only doing harm to both of them.

If Spike can't understand that, and if he can't see that breaking up is really for the best... that's not Buffy's problem. You can only hold Buffy responsible for so much in this scene - she's honest about her feelings, and she tries to be gentle about letting him down. What more do you want? (And if the answer is, "I want her to love him and to say she's sorry for using him, but she wants to be together for real now," well, that's just not an option.) No matter what she says, it's going to hurt Spike... that doesn't mean that it wasn't the right thing to do.

I think the biggest problem people had with this scene is for two reasons:  one, it comes after Riley’s grand entrance, and Riley slaps Buffy on the wrist.  “Hey, Spike’s evil.  He should be dumped or dusted—take your pick.”  And Buffy does.  She refuses to let Riley dust him, and opts to dump the poor bastard instead.  Of all of the legitimate reasons she had to call it off before Riley comes blazing into town on his not so moral high horse, she only does it when Riley says “it’s wrong—this isn’t one of your shining moments, Buffy.”  That’s what pisses me off.  Break his heart—okay, fine.  But break it only cause some loser who left you and lied to you before hand says so?  Cause he shames you into doing it?  WTF is up with that?

The second reason, IMHO, is that yeah, she admits his feelings are real with the whole “William” bit, but at the end of the day, doesn’t give a damn about them because they don’t matter.  They can only officially break up on her terms and her rules.  Spike’s told her to shove off before, but it’s Buffy’s game, right?  So who cares what he has to say (insert various scenes from “Gone” here.  She tells him to leave, he does, but hey, when she’s ready to go, it’s an automatic green light, and who cares if he wants to or not?).  It's killing her, sure.  But what it's done to William is irrevelent, cause now, it's killing her, and so only now it matters--that's how I saw it.

 

If you want to talk moments that made me proud or whatever of Buffy in that season, that scene in AYW is definitely not one of them.  However, the scene from “Hells Bells,” when she admits that yeah, she deserves to feel that twinge of hurt of seeing Spike with someone else and the scene in “Normal Again,” when she’s “patrolling” pretty damn close to his crypt (if that’s unclear, Spike’s heading home from the store, asks her if she was coming to see him, and then later, Spike suggests taking her back to his crypt after her dizzy spell, cause it was close by), and unwittingly admits (to the audience—her back was to Spike, and I’m not sure he picked up on it ) that she cried about their breakup are the two scenes for me, because they proved that even though she was fucked in the head, she in fact had (some) feelings.

My gut reaction to the original question was - because she had the empathy of a gnat.  At least, Buffy of s6 anyway.  After giving it some thought I'm still feeling the same.  In that scene and the majority of their interactions (Buffy's and Spike's) throughout s6 her attitude was that it was All! About! Buffy!   Granted, it's her show but she never came off nearly as self involved as she did in s6 & s7.  The simple fact that Buffy demanded Spike tell her he love her in the same episode drives that point home.  Again, total lack of awareness of him as a person with feelings and emotions that are real.  This is even supported again in s7 during Buffy's conversation with Giles (I think it was in "Lies My Parents Told Me" ) when she says "there's a real person in there now," (emphasis mine) and goes on and on about how the soul has changed Spike.  Buffy never thought of Spike as real for some weird reason I truly don't understand.  I honestly don't get it.  It's never explained or expounded on in the series - that I can remember - and it honestly doesn't make a bit of sense no matter how many times she said it.  Granted, demons are evil but the idea that evil-equals-unreal is never presented on the show.  In fact, it seems kind of twisted that Buffy sees Dawn as real when she's essentially a memory implant and some energy shaped to human form, but sees Spike as unreal.

I'm sure his thousands of victims over his century of feeding would beg to differ.

With that stated, I do agree with the repeated sentiment above that it was the right call to end the relationship because it was unhealthy and abusive but the whole idea of that is undercut by Buffy's reaction to Riley.  I felt like the people behind the scenes on BtVS were sending a really horrible message (s6 overall) by bringing Riley back and having all of the "good guys" welcoming him with open arms as if he had never risked them all with his little vampire bite problem, or the fact he blamed Buffy for his actions before deserting her when her mother was dying and a hellgod was after her sister.   (I really would have expected more from a self proclaimed feminist agenda show than being supportive of a man telling a woman she is at fault for his actions - a classic in the realm of relationship blame being put on the woman.  You know the "if you weren't such a frigid bitch, nag, etc I wouldn't have to cheat, drink, etc" line that shifts the blame.  Women are just as guilty of this sort of behavior but for a show that did an often overzealous job of putting women in empowered roles and position it really sucked they wrote scenes that supported that kind of behavior when it wasn't essential for the story.)  Using Riley as the catalyst to get Buffy to leave Spike was ... grrr.... just stupid.

And I have to add it was really visually manipulative  to have the camera stay on Buffy's face as she left, illuminated and hopeful, a sort of a "see she's doing the right thing now 'cause she's in the light, see, see! Buffy good, Spike bad, stupid audience."    They should have just put a bubble caption above her head.  It probably would have been easier.

Gah.  I'm shutting down my s6 issues before I derail the thread.

:)

Buffy calls Spike "William" exactly twice.  Once in "No Place Like Home" when she catches him behind the tree and again in the breakup scene in "As You Were."  In NPLH, I think it's for many reasons.  First, Buffy probably has the same tendency that a lot of women have of calling men by their full names when chastising them: "No one has time for this, William."  Second, Spike just called her by her first name: "Hi, Buffy."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is also the first time that Spike has addressed Buffy as Buffy.  He's just discovered that he's in love with her, and is trying it on for size.  Lastly, I think that--deep, deep, deep down--perhaps Buffy may have recognized Spike's vulnerability at that moment.  He's lurking behind a tree, trying to accidentally run into his crush.  Buffy didn't know it at the time, but she must have noticed something very non-Spike about his behavior.  Well, until he called her a bitch, at least :-P

In "As You Were," Buffy's showing that she now sees Spike as a person who is worthy of respect.  I believe it's part of the reason she breaks up with him then.  When she stops seeing herself as vile and disgusting, she stops projecting those feelings onto Spike.  She calls him William to say, "Hey, I know you're not just a soulless, evil thing...Well, you are soulless and evil, but...you're a man, too.  You have feelings, and I'm sorry I hurt them."  Buffy neither means it as one last dig, nor as a means to drive the stake just a little bit deeper into his non-beating heart.  I'm not by any means saying that it didn't feel that way to Spike.  It may have, but I don't think she meant it that way.  Why?  Because, if Buffy wanted to hurt Spike, she knows many other ways to do it.

The breakup was bound to happen; neither parties would have survived if they had continued on that path.  Spike just wanted to love her and be loved, but Buffy wasn't capable of giving anyone love at that point, not even herself (Notice I said "wasn't capable."  I think she did love him, but couldn't show that love in her seriously f-ed up state).  Did she do it in the perfect way?  No, but, as Eowyn said, breakups always hurt.  This breakup didn't just hurt Spike; it hurt Buffy, too.  Maybe her walking out into the sunshine wearing the lavender blouse of Spuffy pipe dream death doesn't relay that message :-P BUT, we do see her hurting later.  And, what's even more miraculous is that she admits it.

break it only cause some loser who left you and lied to you before hand says so?  Cause he shames you into doing it?  WTF is up with that?

I have asked myself this same question, and while I typing the bit above, I tried to delve into the mind of Buffy and come up with a semi-logical explanation.  I always wondered why it was Riley's reappearance with Sam "The Amazon" Finn that prompted Buffy to end her relationship with Spike.  Riley is the asshole that went to vamp whores, put Buffy, himself, and everyone else in danger, and left her...just like everyone else.  Buffy's been dumped or used or abandoned by every man she's been with, save for Spike.  When Riley leaves, she starts to wonder what is it about her that makes men leave.  When he comes back, her face lights up, and she seems to think, "Oh, thank god, he came back.  I don't drive them all away."

Before Riley's return, Buffy spent the entire shag fest with Spike wondering why she came back wrong, why would she allow Spike to tie her up, why did she want to be with an evil, soulless thing, and why was the evil, soulless thing the only man who didn't run out on her.  Riley tells her that she's still an amazing woman, even with the burger smell and the psychedelic uniform, and gives Buffy the affirmation that she's been needing: there's nothing wrong with her; she doesn't drive men away; she's having a hard time dealing with life; she's boinking an evil, soulless vamp, but none of those things makes her less of the woman she's always been.  It had to be Riley because Buffy needed it to be.  He's one of the guys who left her.  Buffy needed to hear that it wasn't all her fault from someone who caused her to have those feelings in the first place.  Buffy tends to seek affirmation from other people.  And, while Riley's little speech was no where near as eloquent or moving as Spike's in "Touched" :happy: , it seemed to serve it's purpose.

I think you're right on that last point, IB. She needed someone to bring her self-focus back into perspective. Everybody else has been saying she's different or not being like she should, and she's agreed........but Riley's outside all that, and just sees Buffy, not a compare and contrast, or whatever, and distance has probably put perspective on their relationship for him, too, so he can look on it with fond memories - and Buffy impressed him, plain and simple.

Oh, and there's a daily on YouTube of the focus on Spike's face when Buffy leaves here. And James nails it, hits that one out of the park. It hits you right. there. I know why thematically they focused on Buffy instead, but oh, goodness.....

And James nails it, hits that one out of the park. It hits you right. there. I know why thematically they focused on Buffy instead, but oh, goodness.....

:nod:  Yes, he does.  He really does.  That crestfallen look of shock and realization, and his whispered, "She...she..."  He's so broken he can't even say it aloud.

Ditto to everything IB said. :)

I think the break-up was pretty much inevitable after "Dead Things." Once Buffy knew she didn't come back wrong, after breaking down with Tara, there really was no other alternative for her. Maybe it's unsavory to Spuffy fans (and Riley haters) that it was Riley who gave her the final impetus to do what she needed to, but Buffy needed that from Riley, and she needed to end the relationship with Spike.

I don't think she called him William to be cruel or to denigrate his vampire side as unable to love

Or, y'know, maybe it was. I'm sure the break up would have hurt a lot less if it didn't hit Spike's personal side.

I agree with Darth Rosenberg--breaking up with William, the most vulnerable side of Spike, made it hurt all that much worse.  And yeah, she does look kind of happy and hopeful when she walks away, which is weird, and inappropriate (insert half smile from "Chosen" here).  Why not make it a clean break as opposed to drawing out the pain?

I also agree with Quark--it's kind of backwards for a "feminist" show for the heroine to be shown the way out of an unhealthy relationship by the guy who pretty much cheated on her and then left her, and only showed back up when he needed something, with his wife in tow.  This is that ep in a nutshell--Riley comes to town, Buffy falls into his arms, sees his wife, then falls into Spike's arms, is told "bad Buffy" by Riley, then dumps Spike.  It has nothing to do with disliking Riley's character, but who he represents in Buffy's life.  Or who he used to.  She smiles and follows him as if everything else between them didn't happen.  No, "what are you doing here?" or "what gives you the right" or anything.  It was completely insane.  Can any of you honestly say if your ex, who left your ass a year before when all of these not so wonderful things were going on in your life (her mother was seriously ill--what an awful time to just abandon the woman you claim to love), smile all in his face and just leave your job to follow him to god knows where?  It was retarded, as was that entire episode.  And the only thing good in it got cut (yes--I'm referring to that heartbreaking close up of James).

Also, her reasoning for breaking up with Spike was cause he's a bad, evil thing, (and nothing at all to do with anything that may have been wrong with her) right?  And she shouldn't have sex with him anymore because of it.  Okay, but what bad, evil things has he done in the past year or more?  It just rubs me incredibly the wrong way, especially when she pretty much makes Giles research a way to save Angel in "Amends" when he clearly doesn't want to, and probably sees Jenny's dead body in his bed when he looks at Angel (it had been only a few months up until that point).  I'm not comparing Spike and Angel per se, but Buffy's idea of them.  She sees Spike as Riley now sees Spike--evil and coniving and soulless and just plain bad.  And in that instance, it is a complete erroneous assement.  Especially since Willow got a second chance after nearly getting Dawn killed.

Why not make it a clean break as opposed to drawing out the pain?

Maybe I'm missing something, but how was that not a clean break? What part of it was drawn out? The conversation lasted maybe three minutes, total.

Also, her reasoning for breaking up with Spike was cause he's a bad, evil thing, (and nothing at all to do with anything that may have been wrong with her) right?

No. Her reasoning for breaking up with Spike was: "I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just... being weak and selfish... and it's killing me."

I was going back to what Darth Rosenberg said--that by calling him William made it hurt more.  Bear with me on this one, but Spike is like the facade/persona that protects William.  I think that's fair to say.  William is incredibly sensitive...and to say that to him was more along the lines of a blow to the heart as opposed to the chest--you know what I mean?

And yeah, she can't love him because...why?  And she makes this decision precisely after...what?  And being weak and selfish is killing her?  I don't think she specifically meant that.  Perhaps the being weak part, because she kept having sex with him.  But why is that bad?  It pretty much circles back to "Spike doesn't have a soul--he's evil."  He isn't a real person, as someone else mentions above, until he gets a soul (to Buffy, anyway).  And if you want to bring up the whole she admits his feelings are real, well yeah, but that doesn't make him real (in her eyes).  The whole "I think it's real--for you" is like saying he's delusional, and that he believes he capable of having feelings that don't exist.

Maybe it's unsavory to Spuffy fans (and Riley haters) that it was Riley who gave her the final impetus to do what she needed to, but Buffy needed that from Riley, and she needed to end the relationship with Spike.

No question that she (or he) needed to end it, and that she needed a catalyst.  No question that it was the right call.  Spike and Buffy as a couple never really worked in canon.  There's just no place for it.  And you're right, it was Riley that gave her the whatever it was she needed to finally cut Spike loose.  The part that doesn't make any sense what so ever to me is that it was Riley, the guy who ran out on her, and blamed him for his own failings.  Cordelia gave Buffy the kick in the butt she needed in "When She Was Bad" by calling her on her crappy attitude.  Any character currently on the show, or even a guest from AtS could have been used to give her that push she needed.  Heck, even Giles would have worked.  Or hey, take the quirky route and have Spike end it.  Bringing Riley in as the wonderful guy that got away to show her the "light" was just bad form.  And kind of ridiculous.  (This isn't Riley-hate, it's just confusion as to why they chose that character.)

Plus, from a continuity standpoint the whole "The Doctor" subplot was just very contrived.  International demon egg trafficking?  Selling to foreign military powers? He didn't even have a phone.  I'm already suspending my disbelief enough to watch a show about a tiny blonde that kicks demon ass with her faithful sidekicks and comes back from the dead, more than once.  Stretching it to include Spike the Arms Dealer just isn't going to happen.  Him using the same name as the demon that cut Dawn in "The Gift" - just can't buy it.  Storing the eggs in a place visited by both the Slayer and her little sister, who he clearly cares about ... nope, sorry, just not buying it.

I think she called him William to drive the point home that it was over because she really needed for it to be.  Regardless of how she meant it, or things she might have said but didn't, I don't think she was thinking about anyone other than herself.  All those "I" statements were a big clue.  Not saying it was a bad call, just pointing out that Spike's feelings, opinions or thoughts on just about anything don't carry any weight with Buffy no matter what she calls him because she doesn't think his feelings are real, or that they matter to anyone other than him.  By using his real name she made it very clear that her saying she wasn't going to sleep with him anymore wasn't her usual song and dance and that she wouldn't be back.

William is incredibly sensitive...and to say that to him was more along the lines of a blow to the heart as opposed to the chest--you know what I mean?

I can understand that... but also, look at it from another perspective. The fact that Buffy is addressing him as William means she's acknowledging that that side of him even exists - which is a huge step forward from "evil, soulless thing... there's nothing good or clean in you." I think she is reaching out to the human side of him, hoping he'll understand why she's hurting him. Spike obviously doesn't get it - "really not complaining here" - so she's hoping the sensitive part of him will recognize that she's doing the right thing by ending it, even though it's painful.

And yeah, she can't love him because...why?

Because she's completely screwed up and her issues have issues and she couldn't have made it work with the perfect man in season six, let alone Spike? If she'd said, "I don't love you," or "I shouldn't love you," I might agree with you - but this is "I can't." She's just not in the psychological mindset to be able to love anyone at this point.

And she makes this decision precisely after...what?

I think IB had a pretty good explanation of that already.

And being weak and selfish is killing her? I don't think she specifically meant that.

Then what did she mean? I don't understand why Buffy - who never opens herself up to anyone - would admit to weaknesses and failings if they weren't true. Buffy has always put out the front of being completely in control of her life, and always being strong in the face of anything. Why would she say what she does here if she didn't mean it? If she was really ending things because he was a vampire and not capable of real feelings, what's stopping her from saying it? She's never held back before in telling him he's an evil, soulless thing or that he's incapable of love. So why now?

Perhaps the being weak part, because she kept having sex with him. But why is that bad?

Because she's using him. I thought it was pretty much agreed upon that their relationship was dysfunctional and unhealthy...

The whole "I think it's real--for you" is like saying he's delusional, and that he believes he capable of having feelings that don't exist.

No... it means that his feelings are real, but the feelings he believes that she feels are not real. The relationship he thinks they had is not real. He thinks she loved him, and that having sex with him indicates she felt something. She's trying to tell him that it wasn't like that - she was using him, and she doesn't love him. It's the same thing she's been saying since the beginning - "This isn't real, but I just want to feel."

The part that doesn't make any sense what so ever to me is that it was Riley, the guy who ran out on her, and blamed him for his own failings.

Again, I thought IB explained this very well. It had to be one of the men who ran out on her, who made her feel like there was something wrong with her. Angel was busy on his own show, and they weren't allowed to do crossovers anymore, so it had to be Riley. (Also, I think it would've been a much more complicated episode if it had been Angel.)

All those "I" statements were a big clue.

I thought "I" statements were supposed to be a good thing in conflict. Instead of saying "you did this," it's "I feel this," so as not to place blame on the other person.  Also, in this particular situation, it's a way of saying, "It's not you, it's me," without being so cliche about it.

By using his real name she made it very clear that her saying she wasn't going to sleep with him anymore wasn't her usual song and dance and that she wouldn't be back.

And I think that was probably necessary. Spike doesn't believe her at first - "I've memorized this tune" - so she has to make it clear that she means it. If Buffy hadn't done something to indicate that this time "it's over" really meant "it's over," we would've had a miscommunication like "Seeing Red" in this episode, or the next, with Spike not believing her, thinking if he just pushes hard enough, she'll give in, like she's done in the past.

No... it means that his feelings are real, but the feelings he believes that she feels are not real. The relationship he thinks they had is not real.

Nope--Spike was specifically talking to her not believing that  his feelings for her were genuine.  This comes after the "I don't hurt you," statement, and she replies "I know."

 

SPIKE: No, you don't. I've tried to make it clear to you, but you won't see it. Something happened to me. The way I  feel... about you... It's different. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself it isn't. It's real.
BUFFY
(gently)
I think it is.
(a beat)
For you.


Again, I thought IB explained this very well. It had to be one of the men who ran out on her, who made her feel like there was something wrong with her.

But here's what doesn't make sense about that--why does she need some type of vindication when she has a guy right there who loves her, who didn't leave, even when she was in the ground for over five months?  Simply because...he doesn't count because he's evil and soulless.  I think Spike's own actions of good as well as the Trios actions of evil, who are very much human and responsible for the death and cover up of Katrina, confirms that the soul isn't all there is, or at the very least, shouldn't be the end all be all.  It proves that soul doesn't always equate to "good."

Again, I thought IB explained this very well. It had to be one of the men who ran out on her, who made her feel like there was something wrong with her. Angel was busy on his own show, and they weren't allowed to do crossovers anymore, so it had to be Riley. (Also, I think it would've been a much more complicated episode if it had been Angel.)

While I do see your point, and IB's, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.  It just doesn't have enough evidence in canon in my opinion.  Making assumptions on what Buffy might or might not have been thinking doesn't hold as much weight with me as what she actually says and does on screen. 

The writers used Riley as a much needed catalyst.  I get that, I do.  I just don't think it was the right choice regardless of casting issues.  Giles could have come back.  Any of her friends could have helped her.  They could have used Tara as a follow up to the end scene from "Dead Things."  Spike could have ended it.  Even a self examining epiphany would have been better.  Why in the world does she need a man that left to come back to show her she's still a good woman or a strong one?  An ex that abandoned her in the middle of a crisis at that?  (At least Angel waited until the Mayor was dead.)  There were just so many other options, paths they could have taken that didn't include Buffy happily accepting Riley's presence back in her life with a grin after his behavior and actions in s5.  I mean, freakin' hell, they had Buffy apologize to him for what happened.  Unacceptable.  Just ridiculous.  He gets to expound on how wonderful his life is, how much he loves it, that he thinks Buffy is still a helluva woman and then get lifted off into the night with his perfect new wife and its a good thing for Buffy?  I was beginning to think Tara was wrong and Buffy lost part of her brain in the resurrection.  Why in the world should his opinion matter more than the people that stood by her, or her Watcher, or her sister?  If anything, it should matter less.

Ugh.  I know the writers made it work that way, but it just didn't sit well with me.  Riley-hate aside, it just comes off as a weak storyline overall.  She could have dumped Spike after Tara's revelation and it would have made more sense.  They would have won the audience over (more sympathy for Buffy despite her actions in "Dead Things" ) with an episode centered around Buffy coming out of her funk on her own, or with the help of her friends and family, something along the lines of her emotional break through in "Grave" than what we saw in "As You Were."

Im just tossing my two cookies in, which most likely will be wrong. Buffy needed that final push from Riely beacuse she did think something was wrong with her, that sh ecame back wrong. Spike even said she came back wrong, even if he was saying it to jib at her, it was the fact that he said it, and also that he could hurt her. She knew that with that chip he shouldn't be able to hurt her, so therefore she knew she'd come back wrong. She couldn't feel good about herself, what she was doing with Spike, and most likely at the time she thought she wasn't abusing him, since she still viewed him as an evil soulless thing, that deserved everything she dished out on him for believing that he could love her.

When Riley came back to town, I know she felt a twing of something, that he'd come back to her. And it wasn't as if he had come right out and told her about his wife, to me he lead her on a bit, and she basked in it. She needed that. She needed that small amount of attetnion from a living, breathing man, even if he did leave her and cheated on her with vamps. And when he caught her with Spike that was the final draw.

I don't know when she came to realize that Spike's feeling were real, but it had to be between Riley talking with her and her final decision on breaking up with Spike. But once she realized this, she knew that she couldn't keep on seeing Spike because of the way she was treating him. His feelings were real, she needed to sort through her's and get her head on straight. She was not in any form ready for a relationship, and she knew in the long run she'd only hurt Spike more, with the physical abuse as well as the emotinal and mental too. It was better that she ended it.

And like any man Spike tried to win her back, convince her that it was a mistake, that she was wrong. That they could fix thing, that he could fix things because he loved her. But he couldn't fix it, beacuse Buffy was unable to love anyone at that time. I don't even think she was able to love herself, and if you can't love yourself how can you love anyone else? So SR for me was an act of despiration, Spike acting on pure emotion and adrenalin.

By season seven, they had both matured, though Buffy still was hurtful to him at times. But I think Spike by then also realized that the place they had slipped into the previous year was not healthy for either one of them. But if he had survived the First then I think they would have started a new relationship, one healthy that both of them could enjoy and grow in. And yes, I do believe that she loved him and it would have blossomed further if given the chance.

A vital part of this episode, IMVHO, and part of this discussion is shown in this part of the script - Aside from all the issues that surround any true love or potential for that love is still a very important part of Buffy's world - She still sees Spike as a vampire, man, whatever you want to call him, she still sees him as a man that she should not love. 


BUFFY: And I'm not here to bust your chops about your stupid scheme, either. That's just you. I should have remembered.

I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...

BUFFY: I have to be strong about this.

Of course this episode is a huge contrast between Spike and Riley - Riley was the "Joe Normal Mr. Right" that he was completely the  wrong man for her is ignored. - Riley fit within her world view of "what is right and acceptable in the normal social world, what The Slayer should be, what is understand as "Good" in the world - and Buffy still sees Spike as The Force of Evil and Unworthy - "that's just you, I should have remembered" is a deep truth in the current state of world Buffy.   True that Buffy is in a very very bad place mentally, but aside from all the emotional problems that her resurrection brought forth - Spike is still seen as the epitome of all that she should never want.

It's a great contrast in the metaphors used in this entire episode - Riley hunting a global arms dealer in Spike, using the word that describes a healer, DOC - when the real arms dealers are the military - this is a great episode as a study of all the delusions and lies this characters tell themselves and that will play out in their very near future - and in Buffy's case her very near past.  If anyone is killing Buffy, it is herself - just as in Dead Things, all this cycle of self-destructive behavior, is so much more about her than about Spike.  

One thing for Spike, is that all this makes it possible for him to take that horrible, but absolutely necessary, path toward his recreation in the caves of Africa - It is not a mere coincidence that it is Spike's home that is destroyed and their bed - the the delusions, lies and secrets of their relationship have to be destroyed in-order that anything real can be made real.   One of the important reasons for the use of William is that Spike will resurrect that part of his human existence.



 

From "Dead Things" all through "Entropy" the theme of these episodes is the self-created nightmare and hell that all these character make for themselves. Each couple live through a world filled with lies and delusions and hide and secret away truths.

Buffy and Spike after all the horrors of Dead Things go through that Dawn’s birthday party as if the alley melt down and brutality never happened. 

As You Were is a parody of The Perfect Couple and Buffy’s continuing fantasy of her world. Riley and Sam are the perfect fantasy couple that she will never be and the complete contrast to how she understands her relationship with Spike. Riley and Sam serve as the example of the hidden lies and secrets. Xander and Anya, while in a bathroom, talk about the perfect wedding and how the wedding ceremony means nothing it is their lives together that are rewards to come – and yet we see what the hidden truths are in Hells Bells.

Buffy hates Spike because he is a personification of all that she believes is wrong in her world. And while she says that he is killing her, in reality, it is she who is killing him, and both are very much in destroying each other. While she constantly tells Spike he cannot feel anything real, it is she who is turning away from the true love he offers - while Riley is brought in as a symbol of a fantasy love and perfect warriors mates. Hell, they even go off into the sky as God Warriors going off to an exotic world.

Hells Bells – all about the consequences of ignoring the reality of your world – Xander always had a problem with demons and issues with his parents as alcoholics and deeply troubled marriage. Anya too has not developed a true identity since her life as a vengeance demon.

Normal Again, - the truths that Buffy’s wants to escape and in Entropy we again have tragic results from denied emotions. Xander and Buffy being hurt and angry after they explicitly tell Spike and Anya they are not wanted and have no place as Lovers in their lives. All these delusions and lies come crashing down with tragic results in Seeing Red. They all made their own hells to live in.

 

Going back to Riley giving Buffy affirmation, I don't understand. Riley made her feel inadequate and unfeeling, which should definitely hit hard when she thinks she came back wrong, and then left her in the middle of going through something huge after an ultimatum. Buffy doesn't mention anything about how they parted, acts coy and flirt-y with him, and is obviously pleased to hear him compliment her and maybe that counts as affirmation for the five minutes before his wife shows up. Riley found a totally different woman and got married in just a year away from her? And they kept showing how happy and perfect they are for each other. Buffy is clearly feeling inadequate or not good enough again when she's with Sam and makes excuses to go to Spike's crypt.
There she demands affirmation from Spike telling her he loved her, wanted her, then ordered him to shut up after. When Riley shows up and acts disgusted and disappointed in her she treats Spike dismissively and impatiently, like agreeing with Riley downstairs without even looking at Spike that she hasn't found a way to shut him up so far. At the end of the episode Riley is still disappointed in her, and I don't know how she got from how she treated Spike in his crypt and talking to Riley about it before he romantically leaves with his new honey to feeling like it was a happy thing to break off with 'William' gently and thinking he has feelings that could possibly matter. It's more like she is thinking about helping herself and thinking she is close enough to the girl Riley knew that she could find her way back.

Yep, Guest, you've got it. That smug little smile and bit of strut in her walk as she leaves Spike's crypt proves your point - Buffy was thinking about Buffy. If she'd really felt bad about hurting him there and leaving him in tears, her eyes would be downcast, there would be no smile, she'd be leaving as quietly and respectfully as possible. If she'd even just looked relieved that the weight was off her shoulders, that would have been fine and normal for me, but she'd practically *smirking*.  All I could think by the end of that episode was "That bitch." And I've been on both sides of break-ups.....they always suck, but no one *has* to be cruel.

CM

Smug smile?  Strut???  I hope you can at least have the decency to acknowledge that those are YOUR interpretations of that scene and not state them as cold hard fact.  I know I certainly didn't see them that way.  Jesus, when did becoming a Spike fan mean hating Buffy and everything she does and Spike can do no wrong??

She needed that small amount of attetnion from a living, breathing man, even if he did leave her  - yes - which is why it has to be Riley (Buffy's normal dream man) and not Angel.  Too bad Buffy didn't think through the part where Riley dished up an ultimatum after he got caught whoring around (and does anybody really believe that blood sucking was all that he was doing?), dumped her, ran back to the boy's club, found a new girl and got married six WHOLE months later.  Gaah.

Am I hallucinating?  The first time I saw AYW, I thought Buffy said, "I can't love you now."  Then, when I saw the complete set and in both the shooting script and the transcript, she just says "I can't love you."    Does anyone remember that?  It would completely change things. 

How you interpret Buffy's facial expression as she exited Spike home is individual to each viewer - what she expresses to me is more a look of determination to accept and belief her actions.  That, to me, is the face of Buffy wanting to be strong and to believe that her interpretation of Spike if the right one, that her choice is the right choice. 

I think that "As You Were" is mainly important as an exploration of Buffy's mental and emotional condition - while there is no question that the relationship between them is destructive and must be passed through, I really do think that this episode, like Dead Things is more an exploration of Buffy and the theme of delusions and fantasy, the need to bury the young girl's ideals of the perfect man, the perfect boy friend, the living life away from her calling as The Slayer and to step into the world of real life and into the adult world.  It's a ugly and destructive world that she and Giles, being the slayer, black and white of Good and Evil ideas, and Spike; as the personification these baggage, she must destroy in order to become her own person.  This is a trial of equal importance to Buffy and Spike, they both have to destroy what the are now to create a new and more wise form of themselves. 

While "As You Were" is a terrible ordeal for Spike, I truly believe that this episode is so much more important when seen not as a statement of any romantic attachments, or lack of love, but as a symbolic act of moving as from negative and destructive forces into the light of forces for change.  Remember that Spike's greatest moment, when he even surpasses Buffy as hero and symbol is his total consummation by the sunlight in Chosen. 

In My Very Humble Opinion - Riley has to be the man that comes back, because Riley is the fantasy and delusion - and how hard was it to see our struggling heroine, flawed as she is , seemingly wanting to get back this man that was always wrong for her - the man that wanted her weak so that he could be the Stronger.  Buffy, IMVHO, does not need Riley the Fantasy to bring her affirmation, she needs to destroy her clinging to past and unrealistic world views that are destroying both her and Spike.  I would suggest also Xander and Anya are very important characters in this episode as well, that they are also another connection to the theme of delusions and destructive forces that clinging to her past will act as her prison. 

from About.com:

But here's what doesn't make sense about that--why does she need some type of vindication when she has a guy right there who loves her, who didn't leave, even when she was in the ground for over five months?

Have you ever been as beaten down emotionally as Buffy is? To the point where you wonder if you're lovable at all, and you think that anyone who does love you is either lying and will hurt you eventually, or doesn't know the real you, and once they find out what you're really like, they'll leave you? When you get to the point that Buffy's at - she's never had a relationship that didn't end in abandonment, both her father figures have up and left, and both her boyfriends made her feel like she wasn't enough for them, not to mention the depression of being pulled out of heaven and the belief she came back wrong - when you get to that point, it's incredibly hard to accept that anyone loves you. It wouldn't have mattered if Spike was human, vampire, or a god among men. She wouldn't have believed he truly loved her - and she wouldn't have believed she deserved to be loved. The fact that he's a vampire just makes it easier, gives her an excuse why he doesn't feel the way he claims to feel, but that doesn't mean she'd be any more lovable with a human. That's why the vindication has to come from someone who's hurt her previously, otherwise it doesn't reverse the feelings of inadequacy that the hurt and abandonment created.

Also, to be quite honest, if I were Buffy, I'd have lost all respect for Spike's opinion of her in season six. She uses him, she beats him down, and still he comes back for more. How can she possibly believe any vindication that comes from Spike, when he doesn't even seem to notice that she's completely mistreating him? If Spike told her she was so incredible, the way Riley did, I'd say he was delusional and wonder what Buffy he's been sleeping with the past few months, because it's certainly not the one I'm watching.

Smug smile? Strut??? I hope you can at least have the decency to acknowledge that those are YOUR interpretations of that scene and not state them as cold hard fact. I know I certainly didn't see them that way.

Ditto. I didn't see it that way at all. Yes, there is certainly some relief that comes from having the burden of this unhealthy relationship lifted, but I saw no smugness whatsoever. And considering she admits in later episodes that she cried over their break-up and that seeing Spike with someone else hurts her, being smug at this moment doesn't even make sense.

The first time I saw AYW, I thought Buffy said, "I can't love you now."

I don't remember that, no.

 If Spike told her she was so incredible, the way Riley did, I'd say he was delusional and wonder what Buffy he's been sleeping with the past few months, because it's certainly not the one I'm watching.

I'm saying that the vindication, if one is needed, is not one that is spoken, but is simply there because he still is, and never left.  That he believed in her, loved her, and wanted to keep his promise, he stays with her friends and helps keep up her mission, and taking care of her sister.  Riley couldn't even stay to help take care of her, let alone other members of her family. Some men don't even stay with their own families, let alone someone elses, and for Spike to say speaks volumes.  There's her vindication--and just cause Riley's human just adds to they hypocrisy.  And if she's that beaten down emotionally, does it really matter which man is saying "hey, you're awesome--seriously!"  Why should she believe any of them?  It doesn't make sense to believe Riley considering the background.

Riley couldn't even stay to help take care of her, let alone other members of her family. Some men don't even stay with their own families, let alone someone else’s, and for Spike to stay speaks volumes.  There's her vindication--and just cause Riley's human just adds to they hypocrisy.

 

But then again…Buffy’s whole view of people is screwed.  “Were you always this tall?”  Are you kidding me?  She sees Riley as some sort of god, and he and Sam get to go fly off into the bright light in the heavens, leaving her below, and leaving Spike, consequently, further than that in a burned out, destroyed hollow shell that used to be his home (*cough* *meta* *cough* *phor*).

 

I don’t know about the strut, but she does smirk.  Check the screencaps, people.  She’s smiling at him kinda when she dumps him, then smirks as she walks away.

 

I agree with the color symbolism, but find it entirely misplaced.  I honestly don’t see that as her shining moment of maturity (the lavender is the matured pink thing), because of where the decision stems from.  Why does she need any guy to tell her her relationship wasn’t healthy, and that she was an abuser?  Does she not have a brain?  Perhaps it is damaged.  If it was anyone, and you guys think she needed some human guy who abandoned her to tell her that, then why not Giles?  He makes the most sense, people generally like him, and on a scale of bogusness dealt out from the men on her life, he has the least on the tally.  Using Riley (and I just learned that Doug Petrie has this huge hard on for Riley, so go figure) was just another cheap shot at the whole “Spike is bad” thing.  Not discussing what he was, but what he has become at that point.  They wanted us to view Riley and Spike as Buffy views them—two dimensional, and either “good” or “evil.”  Though how Riley gets his slate wiped clean, I will never know, and if I did, I still would not understand, cause that logic certainly couldn’t be sane.

Not to say he can't be forgiven, but that he has done nothing to earn it or her trust.  All he does is show up in atypical black with a good haircut.  I guess that's all that's needed.

 

But back on to the colors, she’s wearing a huge yellow coat in the beginning, which she later gets a grass stain on.  Yellow, represents sunshine and happiness and joy (but then since it gets dirty, it’s tainted, which probably mean her sunshine’s tainted), and also cowardice.

ETA: it has nothing to do with being a Spike fan and hating Buffy.  Notice, we only really take issue with her this specific season, and probably "When She was Bad."  I don't understand why being a Buffy fan automatically makes her some kind of saint, where she can do no wrong, and everyone must be sympathetic to her issues just because she's a woman.  I'm not just going to give her (character) sympathy because the show is about her, or because she's female.  Yep, that sums it up for me.

But back on to the colors, she’s wearing a huge yellow coat in the beginning, which she later gets a grass stain on. Yellow, represents sunshine and happiness and joy (but then since it gets dirty, it’s tainted, which probably mean her sunshine’s tainted), and also cowardice.

She also is shown wearing these very feminine blouse styles, that beautiful black blouse in research scene on The Freeze Monster (another Spike-Buffy confrontation) and that off the shoulder blouse in the birthday party.  I will check to see if I have this right. 

On the color thing - I only suggest that this is a connection to a rite of passage from the mythic interpretation.

Scalet Ibis:
But then again…Buffy’s whole view of people is screwed

From my perspective, this is the important theme -  even the title is about the past.

I don’t know about the strut, but she does smirk. Check the screencaps, people. She’s smiling at him kinda when she dumps him, then smirks as she walks away.

I just watched the scene - which is more accurate than screencaps, IMO, since screencaps only capture moments, and the movement is important. (I think some cases where she looks like she's smiling in the screencap is because she's in the middle of a word.) I didn't see her smirking, nor did I see her strutting. In fact, most of the time, her face seems caught between expressions, like SMG was trying for JM's subtle facial expression thing and just failing miserably. But I don't see her as being cruel or smug - I think what she was trying for was "I'm trying not to show emotion because I don't want to break down in the middle of this" but ended up with mostly blank and/or confused. Also, as she's walking through the crypt, she looks sad to me, until she looks into the sunlight and gets the look of determination.

Why does she need any guy to tell her her relationship wasn’t healthy, and that she was an abuser?

Riley doesn't actually tell her that. In fact, he knows very little about her relationship with Spike, and certainly none of the abuse. She comes to that conclusion on her own - in fact, I think she does that before Riley even gets there - but she can't seem to break it off with Spike, which is how Riley is a catalyst.

I don't understand why being a Buffy fan automatically makes her some kind of saint, where she can do no wrong, and everyone must be sympathetic to her issues just because she's a woman.

It doesn't - but it seems like it has to be one or the other. Either Buffy is the saint, or Spike is, and the other one is the cause of all their problems. Everyone always likes to say "well, they were both at fault" but no one seems to stick to that when these discussions come up. The conversation inevitably leads to one of them being vilified (and on this forum, that person usually ends up being Buffy). And it doesn't even stop with things she actually did on the show - it extends to interpreting her actions in the cruelest possible way, even when there's evidence to the contrary. It extends to attributing motivations to Buffy that run completely contrary to the words that are coming out of her mouth, which is something I just don't understand. It's as if you don't even want to like Buffy, as though you're trying your best to come up with reasons to dislike her, because you've decided she doesn't deserve sympathy.

Note: In the shooting script, she strokes his cheek and we hold on Spike's reaction after she leaves. What was wrong with the director that they cut all of that out?

It doesn't - but it seems like it has to be one or the other. Either Buffy is the saint, or Spike is, and the other one is the cause of all their problems. Everyone always likes to say "well, they were both at fault" but no one seems to stick to that when these discussions come up. The conversation inevitably leads to one of them being vilified (and on this forum, that person usually ends up being Buffy). And it doesn't even stop with things she actually did on the show - it extends to interpreting her actions in the cruelest possible way, even when there's evidence to the contrary. It extends to attributing motivations to Buffy that run completely contrary to the words that are coming out of her mouth, which is something I just don't understand. It's as if you don't even want to like Buffy, as though you're trying your best to come up with reasons to dislike her, because you've decided she doesn't deserve sympathy.

Not my intention, certainly, to suggest that Spike was a saint or that Buffy was completely at fault.  In fact, I dislike Spike's words and actions almost as much as Buffy's.  I consider myself a Buffy fan, just not a blind one.  I've based my opinion on her actions and words as they came across on the screen, not assumptions.  In "As You Were" Buffy's words and actions lack a continuity bridge from both what she has been doing and saying in s6 and her reaction to Riley's words and actions from s5.  It's an episode that ignores much of what came before which is why I don't like the storyline, Riley's return in particular.  I see her as apathetic in season six, and her use of "William" evidence of her lack of empathy and her inability, her refusal to see Spike as real - both of which has evidence several times over pulled directly from her own words in canon.   While the relationship between Buffy and Spike was a bad one, and they both share the blame, I don't think its in error to acknowledge that Buffy owns a lion's share of it.  One could argue that its possible the writers or the actors didn't convey the story well, but that's sort of a moot point once the show has aired.

As with any creative medium shared with an audience there is a point where the creator's intention ends and the viewer's (reader's, etc) takes over.  It's one of the biggest reasons we aren't all going to agree all of the time because our individual lives shape our perceptions too differently for that to happen.  I've already stated that I'm going to agree to disagree on the Riley point, mostly because I think too many assumptions have to be made about Buffy's state of mind to accept it - many of which I don't feel are very in character, or reflect any sort of personal strength or courage Buffy's represented as having, even post resurrection.  One would also have to assume Buffy needs a man seeing her as viable, worthy of love, which I reject entirely.

As I stated above, I think the end scene was very visually manipulative and I'll add that I don't think it was acted well by the lead actress.  It was an obvious attempt from the other side of the camera to steer the audience back into Buffy's corner, and a blatant one at that.  Too little, too late, in my opinion - but it is purely that, my opinion.  I do think the smile, the expression was inappropriate, however it was intended, just like the one at the end of the series.  I have know idea what was trying to be conveyed.  Someone mentioned above that there was a end scene that was cut that focused on Spike's reaction which was heartbreaking.  It's fairly obvious they couldn't leave that in because it would have undermined all the hard work they did trying to build Buffy up as the righteous courageous one, the "good" one in that episode and pull unwanted sympathy over to Spike's side - something they clearly didn't want. 

From a thematic standpoint BtVS screwed the pooch with s6 by turning their heroine into someone nearly unrecognizable (yes, yes, pulled out of heaven but she was still supposed to be Buffy, wasn't she?) and entrenched her into a relationship with a character (an actor better at conveying subtle emotions than the lead) that was too well liked by the audience to ever be accepted as unredeemable.  If I get started on the whole feminist perspective thing I'll end up writing an essay.  ;) 

I just had a rather lengthy post typed up when my browser decided to erase it :-P  I'm not going to take the time to retype everything that I wrote 'cause I just don't have the time, but I'll summarize:

I know plenty of otherwise intelligent, successful women who are complete and utter idiots when it comes to dealing with men.  I've had them as friends, as enemies.  I'm even related to a few.  It drives me crazy, but I don't condemn them for it.  Buffy's the best slayer in recorded history, but that doesn't make her a relationship guru.

The other characters could have helped her to see the light, so to speak, but they didn't.  They were too wrapped up in their own dramas to even notice that she was falling apart.  Willow was in detox, Xander and Anya was busy keeping secrets from eachother, Dawn was shoplifting lipgloss, and Giles ran back to England.  Tara could have helped as she did know about Buffy and Spike's affair, but she wasn't around very much in the whole avoiding of Willow. 

Riley showed up because that's the way the people producing the show made it.  It is crazy to have a woman on a feminist show seeking affirmation from one of the losers who left her, but again, I've seen plenty of women in RL do it over and over and over again.  Hell, it's not just women; Spike sought love from the woman who beat the ever loving shit out of him.  Is it right?  No.  Should they have represented it on the show?  Maybe not, but I wasn't writing the script. 

Why did it have to be Riley?  Because Buffy needed it to be Riley.  I certainly didn't need it to be Riley--I admit to not liking him--but the episode wasn't about what I needed.  He was the last one who claimed to love Buffy and abandon her.  He was the last one to say, "Buffy, you're just not good enough."  His telling her that she was incredible was telling her that he was wrong. 

Buffy does make a clean break with Spike.  She breaks up with him, makes sure he knows it's over, and not once--not once--does she lead him on after that.  Even when she admits that she hurts seeing him with another woman, she still tells him that it doesn't change anything.  Does it make Spike hurt any less?  Nope.  He had a right to his pain.  Having the person you love tell you they don't love you kills a person in every situation.

It's more like she is thinking about helping herself and thinking she is close enough to the girl Riley knew that she could find her way back.

I had quoted a few things in my original post, but this one sticks out.  You're exactly right: it was about Buffy finding her way back to herself.  It's "As You Were."  I'm sure I don't have to point out the obvious military reference to Riley, but the "you" refers to Buffy, as she was.  She didn't love, or even like, herself anymore, and it had nothing to do with Spike.  She can't give Spike or anyone else love until she can give it to herself.

Buffy smiling at the end: Buffy hadn't smiled all frickin' season.  She was finally trying to come out of the pit of despair that she dug for herself.  For Buffy, using Spike was part of that pit.  I'm sure Sarah Michelle Gellar was directed to smile as a sign of hope.  I don't know if she failed or succeed in conveying the intended message, but I know that, if my boss tells me to do something, I have to do it, even if I know it will lead to badness.

Being a Buffy fan does not make her a saint, but being a Spike fan doesn't make him one, either.  Neither was guilt-free.  Personally, I love both characters for many reasons, half of which would hardly qualify them for canonization.  Buffy screwed up, but she did try to turn things around.  Spike tried turning things around for her, but the fact of the matter is, no one can be helped until they are willing to help themselves.  I have always, and will always, hold that they were both at fault in their relationship.  Rarely anything in life can be laid at the feet of one person.  Both Spike and Buffy fuck up at times, but both do extraordinary things at others.  That's life.  That's real people. 

Goddamn it!  I got booted again :grr:

That was me just above.