BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

I Only Have Eyes For You

Mar 07 2008 06:51 pm   #1nmcil

the next episodes in order for discussion:

Killed By Death
I Only Have Eyes For You
Go Fish
Becoming Parts 1 & 2

I suggest that we discuss "I Only Have Eyes For You"  next followed by season finale unless anyone has objections. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 08 2008 05:19 pm   #2Izzy
I thought this episode was one of the better ones in Season Two. DB's acting skills are wonderful, especially with how difficult it must have been to basically play a woman without overdoing it or making it far too cliche or obvious. SMG was also wonderful. In the early seasons the metaphors were a little more juvenile so I really liked how Buffy 'over-identifying' with James wasn't overdone or simplified. Giles' line about "except in this case where I am clearly right and you are clearly wrong" is great but doesn't take away from the aching sadness you have to feel for him in his hope that it could be Jenny.

I think Spike wasn't at all interested in the Slayer when he was talking about Angel killing her. I think he was still totally in love with Dru and in pain because of how she was acting with Angel. The Slayer was a second thought. I kept thinking he'd been obsessed with the Slayer since arriving in Sunnydale because I've been watching the later seasons recently, so looking back was surprising. Now I think Spike was drawn to Buffy when he was trying to kill her, but he was only thinking about Dru in this episode and most of the time in the wheelchair, so maybe it was after they teamed up that he started to think of Buffy more. It's so nice to see Spike hurting like that, without the violence or dramatic drinking, while he was still definitely the Big Bad and not trying to love like a human. I also thought about how disgusted Angel felt at being 'violated' by love and how Dru sympathized with 'poor Angel'. Besides Harmony, whose emotions always seemed pretty plastic, the big Barbie, did any vampire beside Spike ever mention feeling love?

Mar 08 2008 08:48 pm   #3nmcil
This has always been one of my favorite of the entire season - I agree with your assestment of the pain that characters experience but with the more subtle treatment for Spike and a treatment for Buffy that both shows how much she still has to learn about life and the real dynamics of relationships.   All the actors did wonderful performances in this episode - and I especially like Giles and his climactic scene with Buffy.  Cordelia; perfect with her "projection" lines.

Hope that we get a lot of posts for this episode - It is such an excellent example of what worked best in the series - an exploration of deeper consequences and dynamics of Buffy & Angel plus Spike's love life. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 09 2008 04:39 pm   #4Spikez_tart
You're so right NM - this is one of the Best of Buffy's - possibly for the whole series.  Here's some thoughts I had.

Yes - another Billy - Billy Crandle chains himself to the snack machine.  Sadly, Billy disappears after one bit of dialog. 

I think Buffy is attracting the love/death scenario.  When Willow researches all the other shootings at the high school, she only finds the one from 1955, which is the ghosty scenario that's being played out in the school.  Buffy is in the school when the first shooting almost happens and prevents it. 

Buffy could well be attracting all the evil energy to the Hellmouth.  Xander (the Pack) tells Willow that they didn't need much saving before Buffy came to town.  During the first summer break when Buffy is visiting her father (and/or waking up in a mental institution) nothing is happening in Sunnydale.  Willow and Xander are calmly walking by the cemetery at night, eating ice cream, and they aren't even wearing crosses, which implies that they aren't afraid.  Suddenly, a vampire pops up and so does Buffy.   Here's what Snyder has to say about Buffy: 

Snyder:  (walks around his desk) That's right, I wanna thank you. What would Sunnydale High do without you around to incite mayhem, chaos and disorder?

Spike's visits to the Hellmouth are closely related to Buffy's residence.  She comes to the Hellmouth, he shows up with Drusilla; he leaves, she runs away from home; she comes back, so does he.  She is revived from the dead, and the same night a pack of demons blows into town to take over.  She's gone for 147 days being dead; he leaves for an unspecified time to get his soul.

We get some interesting rumbles about the Mayor.  Snyder shares with the Mayor the ability to tell important truths and at the same time be evil. 

I loved the way the writers switched sexes on the characters - Buffy takes the teenaged boy and Angel the woman teacher.  The "testicle switch" as Hollywood calls it, made the scene so much more intense.  The acting is perfect and the music when Buffy and Angel kiss is beautiful.   Spike seething in his wheelchair, Angel taunting him, Drusilla more crazy than ever- great stuff.

It's interesting that in spite of all JW's blow about feminism, it's on Sadie Hawkins Day, when women pick their own mates, that all hell breaks loose.  Buffy rejects the normal boy who would like to go to the dance with her.  The reversal of the roles of the sexes brings death and destruction.  Also snakes and wasps.  Ew.



If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 09 2008 06:42 pm   #5Eowyn315
Buffy could well be attracting all the evil energy to the Hellmouth.
Or, it's also possible that the evil is just growing on its own and that's why Buffy had to come to Sunnydale in the first place. It's never really clear if it was fate/destiny or the Council or both that brought Buffy to Sunnydale, but obviously she's there for a reason. It can't be just coincidence that the Slayer just happens to move to the Hellmouth without realizing it. I think it makes sense that the Hellmouth's evil energy seems to be growing (things get worse the longer the show goes on), and so Buffy was brought to Sunnydale specifically to fight that growing evil. 

Also, from a meta point of view, it just makes sense. Of course it's quiet in the summer - there aren't any episodes in the summer! We only get to see the school year, so they're not going to have big events occur off-screen. It's a "funny coincidence" that the conflict with the Big Bad always comes to a head around May, because it matches up with the broadcasting calendar.

Spike's visits to the Hellmouth are closely related to Buffy's residence.
Well, yeah, because he was looking for her. The first two times he came to Sunnydale, it was at least in part because Buffy was there. He was trying to kill her - if she'd been somewhere else, he would've gone there instead. And the second time, he came back because it was Buffy's fault Dru left him. 

She is revived from the dead, and the same night a pack of demons blows into town to take over. She's gone for 147 days being dead; he leaves for an unspecified time to get his soul.
What does the demon motorcycle gang have to do with Spike's comings and goings? And the 147 days/Spike's soul quest doesn't really have any connection. They occurred at two separate times, so if your theory is that Buffy being in Sunnydale draws Spike there... not so much. Spike stuck around in Sunnydale while Buffy was dead, and Buffy was in Sunnydale the entire time Spike was off getting his soul, so that's actually a big hole in your theory.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 09 2008 07:12 pm   #6Spikez_tart
The writers didn't have to follow the actual time of the show - I suppose it's easier.  But if Willow and Xander are on the Hellmouth all summer while Buffy is gone and there were lots of vampires - wouldn't they say things have been hell on wheels around here while you were gone?  Instead they're la la la. 
I didn't mean the demons were tied in to Spike's activities.  The demons show up at practically the same minute Buffy is revived from the dead.  She attracts them.  Weirdly, Giles doesn't even know that Sunnydale is on the Hellmouth - he finds out after Buffy gets there.

I'm not sure Spike was lookiing for Buffy the first time - I think he came to the Hellmouth to find a cure for Drusilla.  He comes into the factory and the vamps are all whining about the Slayer and he offers to deal with her.  He doesn't know anything about her.  He asks  "Is she tough?"  His arrivals are closely timed with hers.  He doesn't get to Sunnydale before she does. 

The summer Buffy is gone matches up with the summer that Spike is gone.  Which admittedly is hole-like.  :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 09 2008 07:26 pm   #7Guest
Gotta love Snyder's lines: "I'm no stranger to conspiracy. I saw JFK. I'm a truth seeker. I've got a missing gun and two confused kids on my hands. Pieces of the puzzle. And I'm gonna look at all the pieces carefully and rationally, and I'm gonna keep looking until I know exactly how this is all your fault."  :getwriting:

Does anyone else think that Buffy turning out to be the male here was a bit of foreshadowing for her relationship with Spike? A lot of fics bring up that abusers don't have to be men but can be women abusing men.

Mar 09 2008 07:29 pm   #8nmcil
Spike's primary reason for first coming to the Hellmouth is attempt a cure of Drusilla's falling away - I love the chaos and metaphor of having Angel/Angelus' greatest crime and his greatest love at the same place - and wonderful that both work to bring back Angelus.  Angel/Angelus were always stuck in a loop that begins with his failings as a man, his choices and the inner demon metaphor.  It is also my opinion that until Angel has a soul that is brought about from his own actions, not from a curse, he will always be stuck in this loop scenario - his ultimate redemption will, IMVHO, only be achieved when by his own actions, he goes through the struggle of his own self-resurrection and self-creation.  I don't think Angel/Angelus was ever more in tune with his own redemption than in Amends, when he states that it is the weakness of his human existence that has to be killed -

How I would love to see one of the great Buffyverse FF writers take on an exploration of Angel/Angelus with a treatment of "Amends" where Angel actually does meet his destiny and crossroad with The Sun - not give in to the pleas of Buffy.   And while, in the words of Joseph Campbell,  the meetings with Gods and Nature can be a gentle as the snow (paraphrase) it is that very staying that might very well have kept him away from his ultimate redemption.  Of course in the series this encounter in "Amends" is the signal of Angel/Angelus to really start on his path of the potential Champion.  Another greatest moment and test for Angel/Angelus is when he offers himself as sacrifice in exchange for Darla's life in a wonderful Jesus Christ/Resurrection metaphor.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 09 2008 08:16 pm   #9Spikez_tart
Does anyone else think that Buffy turning out to be the male here was a bit of foreshadowing for her relationship with Spike

Maybe, Guest - Spike does get into a girly save me kind of thing, as well as a cry baby romantic which would be traditionally associated with girls.  Buffy is still saving him in Season 7. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 09 2008 08:24 pm   #10Guest
I always felt it was a bit of an oversight how the writers made everything happen only during the school year--they didn't have to follow the exact real dates of our year to theirs (such as "Lost" and "One Tree Hill").  But to be fair to Buffy, the summers of season three, four, five and six were all quiet, and she was there, so I don't think the evil had to do with her comings and goings (or Spike's for that matter) specifically.  And yeah, Spike's main reason for initially showing up to Sunnydale was to get Drusilla well.

Does anyone else think that Buffy turning out to be the male here was a bit of foreshadowing for her relationship with Spike? A lot of fics bring up that abusers don't have to be men but can be women abusing men.


I don't think it was foreshadowing, though the "Don't walk away from me, bitch" line is interesting, simply because with that relationship specifically, he can't, while she can.  One doesn't always need a gun to keep a person standing still. But abusive women aren't just in fics...they appear in real life as well.  Emotional and/or physical abuse is not just caused by men.

But back to foreshadowing, well, it foreshadows Angel and Buffy a year later--Angel, like the teacher, is leaving because he wants Buffy to have some semblance of a normal life.  But how the events turn out a tad differently, they're still kind of the same--Angel is "killed," so to speak, as is the teacher.  In both parties, forgiveness was needed--I'm sure Buffy wanted to be forgiven for sending Angel to hell, that is, if her nightmares about it like all the friggin' time till he came back was any indication.

~Scarlet
Mar 09 2008 08:25 pm   #11Guest
as well as a cry baby romantic which would be traditionally associated with girls. 

So does that make Buffy the cold hearted bastard in contrast?
Mar 09 2008 09:04 pm   #12Nika
If it was forshadowing it was unintentional. Though Spike does have a romantic look on love that is usually associated with girls, as well as being the more submissive role in thier relationship, even when citing himself as Buffy's 'willing slave'.  Buffy does come off as the more dominant one, even after he gets the soul.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Mar 10 2008 01:58 am   #13nmcil

I always connected this episode with Dante and Canto V - Inferno of the Comedia.  There are many symbols used that could be used as placing Buffy and Angel, in the inversion, as the lovers of this canto.  The tale of Dante's lovers follows the tale of Buffy and Angel, but especially Angel, as an example of failure of giving in to temptation of desire, passion, and love for Buffy and taking this young and vulnerable woman in the act of sexual consumation.  It is a wonderful connection that the male lover Paolo takes the wife of his deformed brother Gianciotto.  I think that Angel/Angelus and his curse make a strong connection to this part of The Comedy -  as I stated in my earlier post, In my opinion Angel fails his encounter with Buffy and like the teacher and her student, falls to  the passions of forbidden love.  Like the teacher that allows herself to become involved with her student, Angel/Angelus allows himself also to take a vulnerable and inexperienced young woman into his bed. 

Of course, with Angel and Buffy, with also have the theme of unconditional love, which in my opinion is great as the metaphor for grace of love of a high spiritual plain and also as the metaphor of love of strong that even your death is not too strong as sacrifice for your beloved.  Many viewers will apply this "unconditional love" to Buffy-Angel, but they make the connection without acknowledging that their love brings death, but not to themselves, but to other people. 

This is an excellent introductory site for the Devine Comedy:

http://www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/devinecomedy/frameset.html


Francesca is not punished so much for the act as for the failing. She fails a larger kind of love. In Hell, she is bound forever to a shade without possibility of growth or change. She could have chosen the love which leads to God and forms eternal bonds with glory and perfection. But her love for Paolo's beauty blinded her to the possibility of choosing love.


We should also look carefully at the excuse that Francesca offers. It is naive but believable, In this first circle of sin, it represents the first consent of the soul to sin. It is easy, human, almost forgivable. Perhaps Dante is trying to demonstrate how easy the first step into sin is. We are aware of the consequences of the lovers' choice. But if we hadn't seen them in Hell, we might not understand this step as a sin, as a weakness of will, as a wrong choice of brief passion over eternal glory.
 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 10 2008 02:54 am   #14Spikez_tart
I hate to even try to follow that NM - They are very Paolo and Francesca drifting forever through hell, tied together and doomed never to see the loved one's face.

as well as a cry baby romantic which would be traditionally associated with girls. 
So does that make Buffy the cold hearted bastard in contrast?   Yep.  She pretty much lives that out.

 The arrogance of Willow grows - she takes on a huge, dangerous spell without even mentioning it to Giles.  Tsk tsk.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 10 2008 05:13 am   #15Quark
Probably the best acting performances to date in the series from the male and female lead - much better than what we later see in the two-part season finale.

With that stated I have to admit this is one of my least favorite episodes.  Because of that just about anything I have to say will be colored by my dislike so I can't really make any sort of unbiased observations.  Well, perhaps one - the conversation between the ghosts toward the end is nearly a direct parallel to Buffy's conversations with Angel at the end of season three.  He wants her to have a normal life - without him - just as Miss Newman wanted for James.  Have to wonder if that was intentional or just a lucky accident.
~ Q
Mar 10 2008 06:13 am   #16nmcil
the conversation between the ghosts toward the end is nearly a direct parallel to Buffy's conversations with Angel at the end of season three. He wants her to have a normal life - without him - just as Miss Newman wanted for James. Have to wonder if that was intentional or just a lucky accident.

Buffy is totally James -

I would like to hear your take on this episode -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 10 2008 10:15 pm   #17Guest
I would like to hear your take on this episode -

Alright.  Just keep in mind I'm a bit biased about it.

First and foremost the angst is over torqued and each segment rings just a bit off center in terms of dialog and the emotions presented.  For example, James shouting "Don't walk away from me, bitch," several times over the course of the episode, and possessing a teacher long enough to make him write it on a chalkboard pushes the angst just a bit too far and has me wondering if the writer was going for the shock factor more than something a bit more realistic for the setting, emotions and time period.  "Bitch" isn't a word that was allowed to air uncensored on network television for very long, and its still shocking for American audiences (especially for those of us that can remember when even the word "damn" was censored) because it isn't commonly used, on TV anyway.   Supposedly James was in love with Miss Newman - deeply, obsessively in love with her.  The shouting fits, even the falling apart mentally fits but each time the word "bitch" gets tagged on that line it sounds like a sour note in an otherwise in tune song.

Willow as a substitute teacher is one of those "eh, what?" moments that made me stop and blink.  One, a high school student teaching (in the US at least) unsupervised in a same age class would never happen, no matter how intelligent or capable for many reason too many to list, not the least of which - when would she go to her own classes?  Time turner perhaps?

The audience is constantly rammed over the head repeatedly with the whole Sadie Hawkins thing, which is centered around women being the ones that are supposed to ask the men as if it were a special occasion which frankly I've always found incredibly insulting from a feminist perspective.  It's like some kind of back handed permission thing - as if its okay for the woman to be allowed to ask only because its the Sadie Hawkins Dance.  Again, I'll admit I'm biased about that one, but I can't help but think its a pretty obvious thing.  Sadie Hawkins was a cartoon character!  A supposedly homely desperate spinster at the decrepit age of 35 who's father organized a day to allow her to pursue (like a foot race, not wooing) a husband!  Do I even have to point out the insult in all of this?  How could any of that be empowering for women?

I'm not going to even touch the inappropriateness of a teacher dating their teenage high school student other than to point out not once does anyone seem to blink an eye over it which is incredibly disturbing.  We don't even get a first name for her, she's Miss Newman.  Side note here - Miss Newman mentions a Hemingway book which is obviously the one where the male lead fell in love with an older woman.  The reference wasn't even subtle. 

The haunting of the school by the lovers resulted in the possessions, but the writers didn't stop there - they tossed in a monster arm in Xander's locker, biting snakes, swarming wasps and quicksanding floor - all while Giles falls apart convincing himself its Jenny trying to contact him, because, you know, she was evil like that.  *rolls eyes*  It wasn't enough to have a murder/suicide they had to throw in that extra punch of over-the-top-ness to keep the rest of the gang busy as an incredibly lame subplot with only a very slight high point of some character development for Willow by showcasing her willingness to rush headlong into magic without guidance.  It was all very obvious and forced in a way that just didn't fit quite right.  As I said above, moments here and there just kept coming off as sour notes in the middle of an otherwise okay song.

The only redemption for the entire episode were the bright spots between the evil trio, and the final scene between Buffy-Angel, James-Miss Newman because it was acted so well that all the floundering and bad writing that came before it sort of fades away and the episode delivers a bang right at the end with Angelus's reaction and Spike's revelation.  That is if you can stomach the idea of a murder/suicide being some sort of star-crossed lovers' romantic ending because she forgave him.


Mar 10 2008 10:16 pm   #18Quark
:grr:  That was me above.  *sigh*
~ Q
Mar 11 2008 01:10 am   #19nmcil

Thanks for posting your ideas - and you make some very good points - but isn't the entire thing of this episode that this is Buffy's nightmare of Angel/Angelus - But  Ms. Neuman and James function as substitutes for Buffy's emotions.  I think that the language used by James is more a reflection of Buffy and Angel, not taken as speech that would have come from James.  Matter of fact, I think that the real James would have spoken in words that spoke of his love and despair from loss of the relationship with his teacher, not with the rage that is really reflection of Buffy and of Angelus/Angel.  Also, the visual symbols used reflect back on the story of endless guilt and remorse with the use of wasps and they also reflect on the theme of ghosts being held back from reaching their release from this earth - waiting to pass onto the realm after life. 

The theme of teacher and student is used because of the metaphor of "life lessons to be learned and lived through" - in the twisted mirror world, Buffy and Angel/Angelus are teaching each other these hard lessons.  Plus as I stated earlier, Angel is the reflection of Ms Neuman - and her name even reflects back on the inversion of Angelus to Angel and Angelus to Angel.  Your point of the teacher being with a student is right on - that is why their story is used as the background for the love that I think is utterly wrong for Buffy - and why I think Angel is a total failure when he. like the lovers of Canto V, who end up in Dante's hell - it is a failure of spirit and weakness. 

My take on the unconditional love and Love at all costs, consequences be damned" comes back to my rhetorical question: 

My husband and My sister fall in love with each other - what would be the better results of this love?  1.  To act on it and break the hearts and family life of the sister - 2.  to have the husband divorce from his spouse and break apart their family - 3.  to tell his spouse that he no longer loves her and must separate, not bringing in all the I Love Your Sister thing - 4.  that both the husband, and the sister that is now his love object declare their love and both make the choice that neither will act on their love or their passions; each go their separate ways.  My answer would be that either No. 3 or 4.  Just because you fall in love with someone it does not mean that you have to act on those impulses, and that is where I think Angel has failed, as did Mr. Neuman.

Sadie Hawkins day is, IMO, again one of reflections of Choice - Ms. Neuman, like Angel, makes her choice to go with passion and desires and love.   Buffy also makes her choice that are just as deadly -  Sadie Hawkins in the time period was, as you state, the time when a women could break their bonds of the accepted social structure and also, you must remember that Ms. Neuman would have been killed by her social group for her actions, just as she was killed by James - even to this time, it is still seen as an reprehensible act for a high school teacher to engage in any romantic or sexual relationship with a student.  And you know as well as I that some high school girls or boys  would go with their teachers if those teachers gave them any encouragement.  I think that Sadie Hawkins day was used in the 'Lil Abner" cartoons and was part of the musical, which with Joss' love of musicals, that makes sense. 

On the Willow as substitute, yeah, not so realistic - 

I do think that for a person that has spoken out for the need to have strong women characters in film and television and womens rights, Joss Whedon has created a very flawed heroine with buffy, she is equally strong as she is weak - and maybe that is the truth of the thing - she is more of a portrayal of what real women are, both incredibly strong and incredibly weak.  Women must learn how to be strong enough to live through the death of their children and all that life throws at them, and they do live through it, but they can also fall in love with the worst possible creeps out there, and they will let themselves be abused and tormented by said creeps.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2008 02:29 am   #20Eowyn315
Quark, I agree with a lot of your points, although it doesn't make the episode all that intolerable for me. (In fact, there's a whole list of eps I'd consider "least favorites" before this one.)

The "don't walk away from me, bitch" bothered me, too. I disagree with nmcil that the language is meant to be a reflection of Buffy and Angel. If it was, then why did the other couples also use that line when they had no conflict with each other? Why did the teacher write it on the board? I've always interpreted those scenes as the two players reliving the scene exactly as it happened. They're not paraphrasing, they're not changing anything - that's why it's so significant when Buffy and Angel change the ending. It's that departure from the original script which allows James to be set free.

The wasps and snakes and everything seemed like overkill as well. It's as though there wasn't enough plot in the story to sustain the episode, so they threw in as many ghost cliches as they could to fill time and create drama.

The Sadie Hawkins thing never bothered me, but then again, I never really paid attention to the background of Sadie Hawkins. I think it was mostly to highlight the restrictions of the earlier time - back then, it was the only dance girls could ask boys to. But now girls can ask boys to any dance - as Buffy asks Angel to prom (and he turns her down).

Willow as a substitute teacher absolutely makes me cringe, especially now that I've worked in education.

I do, however, think that the episode is saved by the great performances from the actors, and for the most part, the silly stuff in this episode doesn't bother me any more than the silly stuff in a lot of episodes.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 11 2008 02:30 am   #21Guest
Sadie Hawkins Day did come from Lil Abner - women chased down and caught a husband and if they could hold on to him until sundown, he had to marry them.  

Willow substituting as a high school teacher for even one class is ridiculous.  When I was in grade school (about 150 years ago) if the teacher had to step out in the hall for a moment, sometimes she (always a she) would have one of her little pets take over the class.  For about five whole minutes.  I guess the whole Willow thing is to reinforce her arrogance (that she could even imagine herself qualified to take over the class) and to make sure somebody finds that floppy disk.

Mrs. Newman - part of Joss's fascination with the idea of a New Man (that is someone who is breaking society's rules - kicking over the apple cart of morals and ethics - and suffering and causing suffering accordingly.)  Also, isn't James the name of Jesus' brother - that might be a quasi-religious connection to the forgiveness theme.  Or it might be that they already used up their Billy quotient for the week.

Quark - glad you said your piece - it's a lot more interesting to hear other opinions, and we don't have to agree at all. 



Mar 11 2008 03:49 am   #22Scarlet Ibis
Of all of the eps I have beef with...this isn't one of them.  All shows have their need for cheesey plot devices, or adding a much younger cast member randomly after four seasons or so (which happens so often now, I pretty much expect it).  As for the weird disturbances, well, I just wrote it off to James desperately wanting attention.  The whole arm out of Xander's locker thing happens only he tries to brush off the temporal disturbance or whatever, right?  As for the quicksand and hornets, well, they were trying to exorcise him away without him being actually helped, so I can understand why a disgruntled ghost would become, well, more disgruntled.

Willow being a sub?  Yeah, a bit retarded, but hey, the last teacher was brutally murdered on school grounds, at a school wherer there are casualties monthly.  I don't suspect many subs would have wanted to go to that school anyway.  And Willow, being the smartest in her graduating class, probably wasn't hurting missing a class or two.

Last thought--the name of the ep, as usual, has great significance in regards to several characters.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 11 2008 05:05 am   #23Izzy
I agree with almost all of Quark's statements about the episode, though when I think back on it the good things came more readily to mind.

About the line "don't walk away from me, bitch", I thought that it was part of the misdirection meant to make us see James as the abusive, obsessive guy in the relationship, echoing the stance Buffy takes at first, before we see it is showing Buffy's anger and shame for herself in her relationship with Angel.

Another thing: Does everyone believe it was James' spirit only? I have to go back and watch the episode again, definitely, because for some reason I have it so clearly in my mind that it was another level of the misdirection that it was only James. I thought it was both James and Ms Newman (whose name I heard was Grace somewhere, have to look that up) trapped by those events- Grace for the pain and heartbreak she put James through and James for his horrible feelings about what he did to the woman he loved. I thought Ms Newman needed to tell him and forgive him as much as James needed for her to know and understood he did love her. At the end of the episode when Buffy/James and Angel/Grace kiss and light rises from both their bodies, I thought it was the idea of the two spirits finally being able to move on, together, and merging into one light to continue the intimacy and closeness of the kiss.
Like I said, I have to go look at the episode again but I was so sure it was both of them, not James just projecting the actions he remembered onto someone as if possessing them. If it was only his memories of how Ms Newman would act he wouldn't be able to find forgiveness from the words of the possessed Angel.

Mar 11 2008 05:16 am   #24nmcil
I disagree with nmcil that the language is meant to be a reflection of Buffy and Angel.

What I meant was more that the language and temper of James reflects buffy's emotional state, like Buffy's stated at the end, James felt he could connect with Buffy. Much of the exchange between Ms. Neuman and James is very similar to the exchange between Buffy and Angel in the scene at the mansion when she tells him that she thinks they need to stop seeing each other - she even uses the same line of "tell me that you don't love me."   And clearly, this lesson of having to learn to forgive is a much needed lesson in Buffy's life.  Take the point of how all the character feel a sorrow for James while Buffy is totally in The Bitchy Buffy Mode - the one person who has the the most reason to hate another, Giles (the adult)  is the person who brings the lesson of forgiveness and compassion.   Plus this whole thing will come back and replay when Angel/Angelus comes back in season three.  Buffy will forgive  Angel all his sins and his killing of Ms. Calendar. 

Regarding the use of snake, one obvious connect is the temptation theme, forbidden fruit - and the wasps are a symbol of non-ending guilt.  I actually love the Giles looking for his beloved Jenny to be trying to communicate with him - that also, IMO, reflects back to the story line of Buffy wanting to have Angel back, but her Angel is gone.  I thought the Giles - Jenny arc of this episode was poignant and very effective.



” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2008 08:19 am   #25Quark
I do, however, think that the episode is saved by the great performances from the actors, and for the most part, the silly stuff in this episode doesn't bother me any more than the silly stuff in a lot of episodes.

Yep, have to agree with that now that I think about it. While its definitely on my Not Favorites list there are other episodes I won't even bother to watch while this one I'll sit through just to see the acting of the two leads.  A large part of my disgruntlement is admittedly all about the SHD thing, which just makes me overly biased toward not liking it.

I think beyond my whole focus on the SDH aspect, my biggest beef with the episode was that there is this sort of underlying impression the audience is supposed to see the romance of star crossed lovers unable to move on because of this tragic event - an event we're supposed to forget was a horrible murder once they spew nonsense about love and forgiveness and float off to heaven.

Again, I can't look at this episode with any sort of detachment.  I've got personal opinions and experiences just oozing out all over the place coloring my every comment. :)

Also, isn't James the name of Jesus' brother - that might be a quasi-religious connection to the forgiveness theme. Or it might be that they already used up their Billy quotient for the week.

Yes, though there is a great deal of religious debate we don't need to get into about whether or not he was a biological brother or not.  Good point on the Billy thing. ;)

Quark - glad you said your piece - it's a lot more interesting to hear other opinions, and we don't have to agree at all.

Thanks.  True, I'm definitely of the agree to disagree camp on these sorts of things.  I have to admit, I expected to get some flak because I'm well aware my thoughts on that episode are a bit over the top.

Regarding the use of snake, one obvious connect is the temptation theme, forbidden fruit - and the wasps are a symbol of non-ending guilt.

I have to admit I don't think these are obvious or intentional.  Sure, the argument can be made for the symbolism, but I seriously doubt the writer was chewing on her pencil eraser pondering the temptation of Eve and the Tree of Knowledge while she was writing the episode.  I think they picked a snake because it was scary.  Ditto on the wasps.  Frankly, I think she probably thought harder on how to sneak that Hemingway reference in there.  :)

~ Q
Mar 11 2008 08:52 am   #26nmcil
I think my counter part of an episode that I find absolutely horrible and completely unacceptable is the episode where Buffy stabs Faith.
 
This episode for me is very much about the irrationality of Buffy and her love and I see it primarily as metaphor, and It does seem very much like the lovers in Dante's Canto V to me.  I am sure that every viewer had episodes they found extremely distasteful. 

One line that I did find in very bad taste and offensive is the line about feminist - sorry I can't quote it directly.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 11 2008 04:00 pm   #27Guest
Cordelia: Do you realize that the girls have to ask the guys? And pay and everything? I mean, whose genius idea was that? Xander: Obviously, some hair-legged feminist. ...is the quote. Izzy, I thought it was both of the spirits, too, or that Ms Nueman came to James to help him after the point where she was shot and couldn't do anything. I have no idea why wasps would mean guilt but I didn't see much symbolism in the episode beyond the foreshadowing of what Angel would tell Buffy at the end of S3 and reflecting how Buffy feels at that moment in S2. Also, Angelus is really disgusted by feeling love and tries to scrub it off him and Drusilla says Poor Angel and agrees that it's something gross or wrong. I was thinking and the only vampires I know about who aren't disgusted by love in BtVS are Spike and Harmony- I'm not counting soulful Angel, and he was never that into expressing it in actions or words too often.
Mar 11 2008 08:39 pm   #28Guest
I don't think it was so much the love that disgusted him so much that it was forced on him.  Drusilla is not sickened by love--she says later in "Crush" that soulless vampires can love quite well if not wisely.
Mar 11 2008 11:52 pm   #29Eowyn315
there is this sort of underlying impression the audience is supposed to see the romance of star crossed lovers unable to move on because of this tragic event - an event we're supposed to forget was a horrible murder once they spew nonsense about love and forgiveness and float off to heaven.
Well, to be fair - it was an accident. He didn't intend for the gun to go off (he shoots her in the middle of his own sentence), and he's shocked and devastated at what he's done. It is horrible, but not so much murder as a tragic accident. That's what makes the parallel with Buffy and Angel - Angel losing his soul was a tragic accident, something Buffy never intended to cause, but once the gun went off, so to speak, she couldn't take it back. And now she's stuck with the consequences, she's lost her lover, and she can never forgive herself because she can never get forgiveness from Angel (well, except she can, because he gets his soul back, but you get the point).

Sure, the argument can be made for the symbolism, but I seriously doubt the writer was chewing on her pencil eraser pondering the temptation of Eve and the Tree of Knowledge while she was writing the episode. I think they picked a snake because it was scary. Ditto on the wasps.
I tend to feel that way about a lot of the symbolism that gets brought up in these kinds of discussions. :) Sure, you can find symbolism in anything if you look hard enough, but often I think it's overreaching to say that the writers had all those things in mind when they wrote it.

Also, Angelus is really disgusted by feeling love and tries to scrub it off him and Drusilla says Poor Angel and agrees that it's something gross or wrong.
I'm inclined to think that Dru was just going along with it because Angelus was disgusted. I don't think Dru is disgusted by love in general - actually, I don't think Angelus is all that disgusted by it, either (I'm of the camp that believes he loved Darla), but I think what he hates is that the love (particularly with Buffy) makes him feel human, and that's what disgusts him. He's fully capable of loving Darla, because she's a vampire and that makes it okay.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 12 2008 02:06 am   #30nmcil
Not to be argumentative, but from a real interest in the subject of symbols used in the Buffyverse.  Why use snakes in the cafeteria instead of say insects if the writers were going for a reaction of disgust?  Why use a snake that is one of the most iconic symbols of sin and the fall of man, plus why use snakes  in a eating location if the idea of "forbidden love i.e., forbidden fruit and temptation?  why not use rats or any other animal?

Why use wasps, which are a symbol of extreme guilt and have the entire building covered with them?  Buffy and James are both consumed with guilt and Buffy is not only filled with guilt but with rage - that is why I think that James and Buffy share in the words and quality of language used by James - and why I think that the spirits are able to manifest in the Sunnydale world realm - why does the gun disappear but the violence remain?  Frankly I don't recall if other instances of this recreation  have occurred outside of this episode's time frame, but I think that it is because James is using Buffy's emotions and anger.  While James is stuck in the endless moment, it seems to me that his spirit
would experience profound sorrow and that he used the moment of his intense anger and the accidental shooting to use Buffy and Angel, the only entity that is already dead. 

I personally think that the use  of the other characters is the weak part of the script, the  people that were trapped in the James spirit recreation is what, IMO, does not make sense because James is not after vengeance or more death, he is after forgiveness and a way to pass over into the afterlife realm - I should think that James would have gone after Buffy and Angel only.  My scenario, of using only Buffy and Angel, however would not have been as dramatically intense. 

SMG and DB were so excellent in this episode, as was James Marsters and Anthony Head - look at how DB used his hands throughout this episode - they are the most gentle touches ever, he even has a suggestion of the Jesus Christ fingers that symbolism a resurrection or Grace - which is the name of the teacher.  So yeah, I do like looking for symbols because I think that this series is based on layers upon layers.  Why would DB use his hands with such gentleness why would the name used for the teacher, who is the one that must help James pass over and attain forgiveness, be Grace?  Why not Alice or Nancy?    Why would Giles go all irrational if he, like Buffy, is subject to the same despair but like the teacher and Buffy's  watcher/mentor, is not giving her advice on how to learn how to live in this world filled with sorrow but also that love and compassion are part of learning how to move beyond ones anger -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2008 03:22 am   #31Spikez_tart
Okay - here's an overreaching and lame explanation for the snakes and the wasps. 

Snakes are an obvious male phallic symbol.  A snake bites Cordelia in the face (foreshadowing the damage to her "face" that Xander will cause her?), but Xander is able to go in the cafeteria without being bit.  The snakes only appear in the cafeteria, which is no doubt a deep symbol that completely elludes me.

The wasp is a female symbol - the queen ruthlessly destroys the eggs of the other females' offspring and establishes herself as queen of the hive (mating and killing the male?).  The wasp queen is nature's own Sadie Hawkins, ruling over the hive and the nominally male and impotent worker bees.  The swarm, led by the queen, surrounds the building and only lets in Buffy, the Queen with a Heart of Darkness.  We don't see how Angel gets in, although he claims that wasps don't like vampires. 

Okay - someone stop me.  :)


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 12 2008 05:38 am   #32nmcil
The snakes only appear in the cafeteria, which is no doubt a deep symbol that completely elludes me.

In my interpretation - the snakes are a symbol of the temptation from Lucifer i.e., eating the forbidden fruit which is the forbidden love of Ms Neuman and James - it also comes back to the Buffy-Angel love in the form of the curse and Angel's forbidden joy in his unlife, his punishment for devouring & feeding from the gypsy clan.  The snakes appear in the cafeteria because that is the place for eating.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2008 10:39 am   #33Quark
Well, to be fair - it was an accident. He didn't intend for the gun to go off (he shoots her in the middle of his own sentence), and he's shocked and devastated at what he's done. It is horrible, but not so much murder as a tragic accident. That's what makes the parallel with Buffy and Angel - Angel losing his soul was a tragic accident, something Buffy never intended to cause, but once the gun went off, so to speak, she couldn't take it back. And now she's stuck with the consequences, she's lost her lover, and she can never forgive herself because she can never get forgiveness from Angel (well, except she can, because he gets his soul back, but you get the point).

While I can see your point, I still think the fact James involved a firearm suggests an intent to harm which pushes the scene from him being obsessed and love sick to dangerous, which strikes me as a very twisted idea of romance.  (I'm holding onto my dislike of this episode with a stubborn obtuseness, I know, and I realize it comes off a bit like a little kid crossing his arms and denying the sky is blue, but hey, I'm complicated. :)  )  And I have to admit while I do see that the writers put forth the whole Angel-losing-his-soul as a tragic accident the skeptical side of me tends to sneer and wonder what Angel was doing for the century he was wallowing in guilt instead of ensuring that Angelus would never again causing anyone any harm.  Saving puppies, no doubt.

look at how DB used his hands throughout this episode - they are the most gentle touches ever, he even has a suggestion of the Jesus Christ fingers that symbolism a resurrection or Grace

At this point I'm going to have to just salute your efforts to continue to deconstruct the episodes down and acknowledge there are some aspects I'm never going to see - Christ represented as gentle hands on an actor during a performance as a vampire being one of them.


~ Q
Mar 12 2008 05:56 pm   #34nmcil
And I have to admit while I do see that the writers put forth the whole Angel-losing-his-soul as a tragic accident the skeptical side of me tends to sneer and wonder what Angel was doing for the century he was wallowing in guilt instead of ensuring that Angelus would never again causing anyone any harm. Saving puppies, no doubt.

We can agree on this thing for sure - I always saw "Angel, I'm not Angelus" as totally bogus - and you have to take my perspective of the series as one almost completely viewed from the mythic and metaphor plus being a visual artist and former dancer, the art direction and use of body language is very interesting to me.

I will try not to bore people with all my symbolism obsession, but I know it will be hard.

Are we done with this episodes discussions and should I start the finale topic?  "Go Fish" is still on the list - do we want to by pass this episode? or do members want to discuss "Go Fish" -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2008 06:03 pm   #35Scarlet Ibis
While I can see your point, I still think the fact James involved a firearm suggests an intent to harm which pushes the scene from him being obsessed and love sick to dangerous,

I don't think it was so much an intent to harm so much as intent to make her listen--to take some of the control back.  Grace just calls the whole thing off, without consulting him, without giving him a choice in to what he wants.  He's just a "child" to her, and a gun, a phallic symbol, was probably him subconsciously saying that he's a man, and that he deserves to be listened to, and is owed an opinion in their relationship just as much as she has.  Of course, this plan backfires literally, and ends it all, but he definitely didn't go there to hurt her.  He could have shot her while she was running if that was what he wanted.  The gun was supposed to be an idle threat to make her listen.  Perhaps it would've been better executed if he had unloaded it first.

Echoes...echoes of desperation...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 12 2008 11:19 pm   #36Eowyn315
the people that were trapped in the James spirit recreation is what, IMO, does not make sense because James is not after vengeance or more death, he is after forgiveness and a way to pass over into the afterlife realm
I don't think that precludes him from using other people. The ghosts just keep possessing people over and over until they get a different result. It just happens to be that only Buffy and Angel will work - and not because of Buffy's similarities to James, but from a purely physical perspective. Angel is a vampire - he is the only one who could survive a bullet and that fall off the balcony in order to forgive Buffy/James. Any human would be killed, and so James would never get his forgiveness. I don't know if that is James' conscious manipulation (the wasps only allow a vampire, and none of the human Scoobies, to enter the school) or just a coincidence that in Buffy and Angel, he happened to find a pair that could change things.

If Angel had been human, no matter how guilty Buffy felt, no matter how much she identified with James, she wouldn't have been able to fix things for James, because Angel would be just as dead as Grace, and unable to forgive her.

Why would DB use his hands with such gentleness
Because he's playing a woman? Honestly, if you're wondering what DB's method was in acting those scenes, I would bet everything I own that he was consciously trying to make himself feminine, not Christ-like.

the skeptical side of me tends to sneer and wonder what Angel was doing for the century he was wallowing in guilt instead of ensuring that Angelus would never again causing anyone any harm.
There's no evidence that he knew the soul wasn't permanent. If he knew of a way to get rid of it, don't you think he would've tried? Especially in the beginning, when Darla was still with him. He already believed that Angelus would never again cause anyone harm, because he didn't know the soul could be lost. If you really want to get on Angel's case for not anchoring his soul, at least wait until season 3 or later, when he knew what could happen.

"Go Fish" is still on the list - do we want to by pass this episode?
Dear God, please skip it. I can't imagine that discussing it will make it any better.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 12 2008 11:54 pm   #37Guest
I totally agree that Angel would have wanted to get rid of the soul before finding Buffy if he had the slightest idea that it could be lost. Also, about the different people recreating the scene:  I think they happened to be at the right place and the right people in that most females could feel emotions or look at the relationship like Grace and a lot of males would have a part of them able to feel like James. The reason it was special with Buffy was that there was no one in the school at the 'right place' and James had enough of a connection to Buffy by shared feeling that he was able to call to her and bring her to the school.

I didn't really like Go Fish compared to other episodes, it just seemed to fall flat without digging any deeper in the issues they brought up, like the possible assault and the human coach's willingness to kill or even the use of 'steroids'. I don't know if we should discuss it.

If you want to stick with sin and forbidden fruit and the snakes, I think Cordelia being bit on the face was showing her Vanity, which happens to be a sin.
Mar 13 2008 12:31 am   #38nmcil
If you want to stick with sin and forbidden fruit and the snakes, I think Cordelia being bit on the face was showing her Vanity, which happens to be a sin.

Totally agree -

I am going to go ahead with the Season Finale then for our next episode for discussion -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 13 2008 12:57 am   #39Spikez_tart
Go Fish is a real stinker.  It's a throw back to the types of episodes they were doing in S1 before they had the characters really established.  Also, it's as if Joss said - Oh It's Time for a Xander episode and we can talk about kids taking evil steroids.  Blurk.

Cordelia has greed, envy and lust going for her in the big sins department, as well as vanity. 

The snakes/food in the cafeteria makes sense. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 13 2008 01:42 am   #40Guest
I agree we should go to the Season Finale of Becoming One and Two. Start tomorrow? I think a member of BSV has to start the new thread.
Mar 13 2008 06:48 am   #41nmcil
The topic has already been started -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 13 2008 03:15 pm   #42Quark
There's no evidence that he knew the soul wasn't permanent. If he knew of a way to get rid of it, don't you think he would've tried? Especially in the beginning, when Darla was still with him. He already believed that Angelus would never again cause anyone harm, because he didn't know the soul could be lost. If you really want to get on Angel's case for not anchoring his soul, at least wait until season 3 or later, when he knew what could happen.

Actually, I was looking at it from a guilt perspective.  I wasn't suggesting he ever wanted to get rid of it so much as feel enough to want to know everything he could about what had happened to him.  Certainly not right at first, or even in the years before and after Darla rejected him - but at some point (at the twenty, forty, fifty year mark maybe?) I think the whole brooding and guilt routine suggests he should have at least after some time once or twice been horrified by the idea of Angelus getting loose again (in the nightmare sense, or even just a random "what if" moment) and would want to know everything he could about his soul.

I totally agree that Angel would have wanted to get rid of the soul before finding Buffy if he had the slightest idea that it could be lost.

He wasn't even aware there was a Buffy or there was ever going to be a Buffy in his life so it is sort of odd that he could think about a potential lover being harmed than a random innocent.  With that in mind, even if he had thought there was potential for some kind of love in his life I'd think it should have crossed his mind - "how can I be sure being a vampire won't harm her?" - that sort of thing.  It's hard for me to imagine someone older than a century or two not gaining at least some wisdom and maturity which lends itself to the idea of feeling responsibility for his actions and acting accordingly whether it be doing good works or taking a stroll on a sunny day.  Brooding or wallowing for a century?  It comes across as a bit excessive and, well, unlikely.  Which is probably why I like the Angel portrayed in the spin off more than BtVS.  In AtS he came across as actively trying to good, instead of tagging along to be good's backup ... sometimes.

Go Fish is a real stinker.

LOL.... I actually like "Go Fish," though I'll admit there probably isn't much to discuss about it.
 
~ Q
Mar 13 2008 05:24 pm   #43nmcil
Gotta say one thing about "Go Fish" -  Xander Harris looked really great in those Swim Trunks -

One thing is I never liked with the treatment of Angel and the curse is that Angel is presented as a man interested in philosophy and intellectual pursuits - that being the case, I always found it hard to believe that he would not have investigated the parameters of the curse or what magics could be used to either anchor his soul or get rid of it - as was stated in earlier posts.  It makes for a big hole in his story and character, particularly with Angelus knowing about The Orb and Spike knowing that there was a way to try and get any wish granted if you are willing to attempt the rituals or trials in Africa.  It is not so much the time line within the Buffy-Angel Love arc that is in question, it is more that Angel is shown as being a man very interested in things intellectual and that Angelus would have been familiar with things magical - logically, he would have been more interested and active in getting info on the curse. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 14 2008 02:40 am   #44Spikez_tart
Angel is presented as a man interested in philosophy and intellectual pursuits  - wouldn't you think an intelligent person like Angel would get tired of brooding after say the first 80 years or so?  But, no.  He's into it. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 14 2008 04:27 am   #45Eowyn315
at some point (at the twenty, forty, fifty year mark maybe?) I think the whole brooding and guilt routine suggests he should have at least after some time once or twice been horrified by the idea of Angelus getting loose again (in the nightmare sense, or even just a random "what if" moment) and would want to know everything he could about his soul.
But how would he find out? The gypsies were the only ones who knew, and they certainly weren't going to tell him about his get out of jail free card. And with no known way to break the curse, I can't imagine Angel going out of his way to make sure the soul was permanent (i.e. Spike's trials in Africa) when he never wanted it in the first place. Once he met and fell in love with Buffy, and once he realized there was a risk of losing the soul, I think that's the point at which it becomes a question of why didn't he do something about it. (And the answer, I believe, more than any character flaw of Angel's, is simply because the risk creates dramatic tension. How awesome is it, from a story-telling perspective, to have a hero who could suddenly turn into a villain? It worked fabulously in season 2, so I can't see why the writers would give up the option of using it again - and they did use it twice after that.)

He wasn't even aware there was a Buffy or there was ever going to be a Buffy in his life so it is sort of odd that he could think about a potential lover being harmed than a random innocent.
I don't think that's what Guest meant. I think he or she meant that before Angel met Buffy, he would have wanted to get rid of the soul, because the soul was doing nothing but torment him. Once he met her, though, he didn't want to lose the soul, because the soul was what made it possible for him to get close to her, and because she made him want to be good, thus making the soul a little easier to live with.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 14 2008 06:35 am   #46nmcil

We do know how great the sudden loss of his soul in "Surprise" worked as a dramatic plot device - it worked perfectly in the circumstance.   Having Angelus want to get rid of his soul and try to find ways of having that happen does follow the logic of what his character would have wanted .   And he did want to return to his family when he sought out Darla in China - the question is just going to have to fall into the wide "how come and what if" category.  If this "having of a soul" had not been made such as issue of in the series, viewers would not be too upset with all the questions that surrounded that  part of the series.  But it was, and I only wish that the writers had brought more clarity to the theme. 

Certainly Angel had no idea that his one true moment of joy and happiness would result in bringing back Angelus - and being with Buffy after all those years of guilt and despair was indeed a life affirming moment for him -

Was there ever in explanation about when Angelus started calling himself Angel?  and how the heck does "Way We Fight" come in to the time-line if Whistler finds Angel/Angelus in that alley.  Did Angel start his total decline into a vampire that Whistler finds after the war?  Anyone have info on this?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 14 2008 09:56 am   #47Guest
Actually, that was answered in Season 4 of AtS, when Faith is taking the Orpheus mind walk with Angelus in Angel's head. Angel was in a diner in the '70s. He puts on Barry Manilow, then a robber comes in and shoots the cook behind the counter. The blood is flowing, and at first, Angel says he's going to get the guy help, but the guy was already almost dead, and with all that blood, Angel fed. He couldn't resist the temptation. Next scene we see, is the homelss Angel that's wandering alleys and living off rats. The despair from all the guilt broke him and he completely separated from society.

"Why We Fight" was during WW2. Angel lived in the Hyperion after that in the '50s, and was in Vegas in the '60s. He was dressed with the times in the '70s, so he'd been getting along okay, until he fed off the dying human.

CM
Mar 14 2008 10:00 am   #48Guest
He became Angel some time between 1890 and WW2. He could have been going by it when he rescued the puppy in the '20s or '30s (have to watch again), but he didn't give his name in that scene. Again, though, he was blending in with the times and current dress, so he was functional. I imagine he ditched the "us" part of the name after Darla kicked him out for good in 1900, as she'd given him the name in the first place.

CM
Mar 15 2008 12:03 am   #49nmcil
thanks both for the time-line clarification - I will have to go watch those episode in AtS -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 15 2008 01:45 am   #50Eowyn315
I don't know if this means anything or not, but in the transcript for "Orpheus," he's referred to as Angel in the stage directions for the 1902 flashback, although he's never named in the dialogue.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.