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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Episode Talk -- Helpless
Apr 08 2008 01:08 am #1Guest
Guest
The next episode to be discussed in season three. Helpless involved a lot of breaking of trust in authority figures and parents and how Buffy and others viewed their roles in life.
Apr 10 2008 03:08 am #2Spikez_tart
Nice metaphor with the crystals - look for the flaw in the center.
Buffy's trying to get Giles to take her to the ice show was heartbreaking. That was the beginning of the end for me with Giles. It was worse than making her weak and letting Travers send her after the psycho vamp. He's never really trustworthy after that, IMHO. Funny how he's so spineless with Travers and the Council, but when Giles and Wesley are captured by Balthazar's minions, he fights off vampires and is very brave. Yet, Buffy forgives him.
It's interesting how Buffy, who doesn't want to be the Slayer, gets very upset when she loses her power. Also, loved the red riding hood jacket and I'm wondering how Joyce could mistake 5'2" Buffy for that giant vampire. Oh well.
Buffy's trying to get Giles to take her to the ice show was heartbreaking. That was the beginning of the end for me with Giles. It was worse than making her weak and letting Travers send her after the psycho vamp. He's never really trustworthy after that, IMHO. Funny how he's so spineless with Travers and the Council, but when Giles and Wesley are captured by Balthazar's minions, he fights off vampires and is very brave. Yet, Buffy forgives him.
It's interesting how Buffy, who doesn't want to be the Slayer, gets very upset when she loses her power. Also, loved the red riding hood jacket and I'm wondering how Joyce could mistake 5'2" Buffy for that giant vampire. Oh well.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Actually, truth be told this was the first BtVS episode that I ever saw, and I came in halfway through so I didn't understand why she was upset that Cordelia handled someone better than she did...and I caught this episode and Gingerbread at least three times before I ever saw a second episode.
Moving on...
What I never understood was why she didn't go ask Angel for help. It was one of the points I never understood about their relationship. He knew she was helpless, and to his credit I do believe he offered to walk her home, but he should have been more insistent. This is Sunnydale. Home of vampires and demons galore who have a vendetta against the Slayer. The idea that she wouldn't be targeted is ridiculous. I do, however, like the fact that on the way home the threat was human and not supernatural.
Another thing, Angel confessed to loving her heart when she was vapid and shallow? And fifteen...in my mind that would make me want to take off in the opposite direction.
I know, I know, she had to defeat the vampire herself so she believes in herself and what she was capable of as the girl and not the Slayer. But at this point Joyce is the only parental figure she has left. GIles betrayed her trust and her father abandoned her. She is up against a vampire who was a serial killer while he was alive. I would have gone running to the vamp boyfriend and allowed him to fight. Whenever I watch this episode I think of OMWF and Spikes line, "Slayer, I've got your back." And to me that is really the main difference between the two vampires.
I hope this made sense, I kinda got all ranty.
Moving on...
What I never understood was why she didn't go ask Angel for help. It was one of the points I never understood about their relationship. He knew she was helpless, and to his credit I do believe he offered to walk her home, but he should have been more insistent. This is Sunnydale. Home of vampires and demons galore who have a vendetta against the Slayer. The idea that she wouldn't be targeted is ridiculous. I do, however, like the fact that on the way home the threat was human and not supernatural.
Another thing, Angel confessed to loving her heart when she was vapid and shallow? And fifteen...in my mind that would make me want to take off in the opposite direction.
I know, I know, she had to defeat the vampire herself so she believes in herself and what she was capable of as the girl and not the Slayer. But at this point Joyce is the only parental figure she has left. GIles betrayed her trust and her father abandoned her. She is up against a vampire who was a serial killer while he was alive. I would have gone running to the vamp boyfriend and allowed him to fight. Whenever I watch this episode I think of OMWF and Spikes line, "Slayer, I've got your back." And to me that is really the main difference between the two vampires.
I hope this made sense, I kinda got all ranty.
Apr 10 2008 04:12 am #4Spikez_tart
was vapid and shallow? And fifteen... - Guys fall in love with 15 year dimwits and girls fall in love with 17-year old losers wearing hot leather jackets - It's natural.
She should have gone to get Angel. That would only make sense. He could have gotten knocked out or kidnapped or something if necessary to prove that Buffy passed the big test.
She should have gone to get Angel. That would only make sense. He could have gotten knocked out or kidnapped or something if necessary to prove that Buffy passed the big test.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
She should have gone to get Angel. That would only make sense. He could have gotten knocked out or kidnapped or something if necessary to prove that Buffy passed the big test.
I have to disagree, running to Angel to save her is totally not what she needed - I think that one of the important parts of having that "vapid,shallow, and fifteen" is to clearly move Buffy away from depending on a boy friend. It's time to leave her childhood impressions and dependencies behind and stand on her own strengths - not super powers, no father figures or boy friends - just a young woman that, like the entire metaphor of the series, finding her own inner strength, courage, and intellect to fight for her life and that of her loved ones. It was human Buffy, not superman/Buffy, that used her courage, love and intelligence to win over the darkness.
The theme of adult betrayals of children and learning to accept your duty is beautifully continued in this episode - Giles, also even as an adult, still has to learn to leave behind the social conditioning of the CoW - What I liked about this episode is that is also brings in how difficult it is for adults to leave behind their social structures and support systems as well. Giles, like so many parents, by blinding following the rules of an archaic and meaningless ritual, almost destroyed his charge and surrogate daughter. Just like the monster vamp's mother played her part in his early childhood destruction, Travers plays her part in destroying his own people. Giles almost had the worst of all tragedies happen by being the Bad Father/Adult and follower of rules - it is only when he takes on the role of a "real father" that he can play any part in Buffy's salvation and life.
Unlike Travers, Giles finds the truth of his duty and devotion to his Slayer, in his love not in being A Watcher - it is not the words and titles that are important and that make the man, but in their actions. From the POV of a Spuffy or a Spike fan, this understanding of Words and Actions over Titles, is such a contradiction - It seems that the vital lesson from "Helpless" is lost when applied to the Buffy-Spike/Spike Journey arc.
Have to admire how the writers make fun of the Buffy-Angel-Forever model in the "I first saw and loved you" scene - IMO, It is utterly ridiculous that a grown man, especially one of Angel/Angelus history and experience would ever fall in love with this childish young girl. What I could see, and what I think is suggested by whistler, is that Angel, like Giles, was meant to serve as guide and protector for The Slayer - that would have been his role as The Champion of the PTB.
I really like the episode, it is one of my favorites of the season and the series -
I have to disagree, running to Angel to save her is totally not what she needed - I think that one of the important parts of having that "vapid,shallow, and fifteen" is to clearly move Buffy away from depending on a boy friend. It's time to leave her childhood impressions and dependencies behind and stand on her own strengths - not super powers, no father figures or boy friends - just a young woman that, like the entire metaphor of the series, finding her own inner strength, courage, and intellect to fight for her life and that of her loved ones. It was human Buffy, not superman/Buffy, that used her courage, love and intelligence to win over the darkness.
The theme of adult betrayals of children and learning to accept your duty is beautifully continued in this episode - Giles, also even as an adult, still has to learn to leave behind the social conditioning of the CoW - What I liked about this episode is that is also brings in how difficult it is for adults to leave behind their social structures and support systems as well. Giles, like so many parents, by blinding following the rules of an archaic and meaningless ritual, almost destroyed his charge and surrogate daughter. Just like the monster vamp's mother played her part in his early childhood destruction, Travers plays her part in destroying his own people. Giles almost had the worst of all tragedies happen by being the Bad Father/Adult and follower of rules - it is only when he takes on the role of a "real father" that he can play any part in Buffy's salvation and life.
Unlike Travers, Giles finds the truth of his duty and devotion to his Slayer, in his love not in being A Watcher - it is not the words and titles that are important and that make the man, but in their actions. From the POV of a Spuffy or a Spike fan, this understanding of Words and Actions over Titles, is such a contradiction - It seems that the vital lesson from "Helpless" is lost when applied to the Buffy-Spike/Spike Journey arc.
Have to admire how the writers make fun of the Buffy-Angel-Forever model in the "I first saw and loved you" scene - IMO, It is utterly ridiculous that a grown man, especially one of Angel/Angelus history and experience would ever fall in love with this childish young girl. What I could see, and what I think is suggested by whistler, is that Angel, like Giles, was meant to serve as guide and protector for The Slayer - that would have been his role as The Champion of the PTB.
I really like the episode, it is one of my favorites of the season and the series -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 10 2008 11:35 pm #6Guest
Guest
There have been a lot of stories with an Evil group in the Watcher's Council and there is a glimpse of the wet-works team sent for Faith, but the show didn't give us much more than that. So I'm trying to think of a plausible explanation as to why having all her powers stolen without her knowledge, expecting to go on a birthday celebration and being trapped in a house with a strong, psychotic vampire planning on turning her, without weapons, will make her stronger or a better Slayer like Travers said. Giles asks questions and figures things out, did he really buy the 'it's tradition' line?
And, who else loved Buffy's line to Travers at the end, and just the look on her face and the way she said it? "Bite me." :lash:
And, who else loved Buffy's line to Travers at the end, and just the look on her face and the way she said it? "Bite me." :lash:
So I'm trying to think of a plausible explanation as to why having all her powers stolen without her knowledge, expecting to go on a birthday celebration and being trapped in a house with a strong, psychotic vampire planning on turning her, without weapons, will make her stronger or a better Slayer like Travers said.
I think it DID make her a better Slayer, for exactly the reasons nmcil pointed out. Superpowers are only one aspect of being a Slayer; all the superpowers in the world aren't going to make you intelligent or courageous or emotionally strong, and a Slayer without those characteristics isn't a very good one. Buffy - and every Slayer - needs to find that within herself. It's not enough to rely on her superpowers to save her - that's exactly the complacent attitude that gets Buffy stabbed in Fool For Love.
This test forces her to use the other skills vital to a Slayer's survival: thinking on her feet, being creative, finding the advantages in her surroundings - all things Buffy has always done, since she's always been a "think outside the box" kind of person, which is why she comes through this trial successfully where other Slayers have most certainly failed.
Basically, I think it's a way of keeping Slayers from becoming too reliant on their superpowers, and a way of weeding out the less able Slayers. Is it barbaric and a complete breach of the Slayer's trust in her Watcher? Definitely, but that doesn't mean it's a pointless tradition. Could they find other ways of testing or encouraging those other skills? Probably, but it doesn't mean the underlying purpose of the test is without value. Honestly, in thinking about it now, the thing that bothers me most about the Cruciamentum is the secrecy - if the Slayer knew the stakes going into the test, as Buffy did, I wouldn't find it as cruel. But then I suppose you run up against the question of what do you do with a Slayer who refuses?
I think it DID make her a better Slayer, for exactly the reasons nmcil pointed out. Superpowers are only one aspect of being a Slayer; all the superpowers in the world aren't going to make you intelligent or courageous or emotionally strong, and a Slayer without those characteristics isn't a very good one. Buffy - and every Slayer - needs to find that within herself. It's not enough to rely on her superpowers to save her - that's exactly the complacent attitude that gets Buffy stabbed in Fool For Love.
This test forces her to use the other skills vital to a Slayer's survival: thinking on her feet, being creative, finding the advantages in her surroundings - all things Buffy has always done, since she's always been a "think outside the box" kind of person, which is why she comes through this trial successfully where other Slayers have most certainly failed.
Basically, I think it's a way of keeping Slayers from becoming too reliant on their superpowers, and a way of weeding out the less able Slayers. Is it barbaric and a complete breach of the Slayer's trust in her Watcher? Definitely, but that doesn't mean it's a pointless tradition. Could they find other ways of testing or encouraging those other skills? Probably, but it doesn't mean the underlying purpose of the test is without value. Honestly, in thinking about it now, the thing that bothers me most about the Cruciamentum is the secrecy - if the Slayer knew the stakes going into the test, as Buffy did, I wouldn't find it as cruel. But then I suppose you run up against the question of what do you do with a Slayer who refuses?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
you guys all have such indepth analysises(sp?) of the eps. which are very valid and really do give me something to think about beyond what i thought about it. but over all, i'll have to say this is one of my less favorite eps. mostly because, buffy is always whining about wanting to be a normal girl. and then she losses her powers, and gets all pissed off about it. i can understand being mad about the ritual, cause that would just blow, crazy vamp, little girl, locked house, not my idea of a party either, plus all the betrayal and what not. but it just always grated my cheese how she's always "i want to be normal :( " but then given the chance, she never takes it. and i know their all about the "it's her duty" bs. but if she's just gonna keep at it with that being her reason, she needs to quit her bitchin' and do it then.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Apr 12 2008 12:39 am #9Spikez_tart
Right you are Legen - does she want to be a superhero and prance down alleys in the middle of the night without a worry in that thick skull of hers or does she want to be a girly girl who has to be careful where she goes and what she does (like the rest of us) and ask Cordelia for a ride home?
weeding out the less able Slayers - Which brings up the whole question of how and why Slayers are chosen. Why choose someone who's weak, stupid, psychotic, etc.? And, if you're not choosing them haphazardly, why would you need to do the big, dangerous Test? The Slayers supposedly don't live very long, or so everyone is telling Buffy. So, the weak would be weeded out pretty quickly on the field.
As far as Angel - a clever person doesn't try to tackle a stronger enemy on their own, but brings in reinforcements. The story could have still brought Angel in and had him incapacitated at some point so that Buffy would be forced to rely on her own. (Of course, that might have made the story too long for the 42 minutes.) And, isn't one of the big joss themes that he doesn't like the idea of the solitary hero? The hero needs friends and lovers and family to survive. Spike attributes the fact she's lasted as long as she has to her social connections.
weeding out the less able Slayers - Which brings up the whole question of how and why Slayers are chosen. Why choose someone who's weak, stupid, psychotic, etc.? And, if you're not choosing them haphazardly, why would you need to do the big, dangerous Test? The Slayers supposedly don't live very long, or so everyone is telling Buffy. So, the weak would be weeded out pretty quickly on the field.
As far as Angel - a clever person doesn't try to tackle a stronger enemy on their own, but brings in reinforcements. The story could have still brought Angel in and had him incapacitated at some point so that Buffy would be forced to rely on her own. (Of course, that might have made the story too long for the 42 minutes.) And, isn't one of the big joss themes that he doesn't like the idea of the solitary hero? The hero needs friends and lovers and family to survive. Spike attributes the fact she's lasted as long as she has to her social connections.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
As far as Angel - a clever person doesn't try to tackle a stronger enemy on their own, but brings in reinforcements. The story could have still brought Angel in and had him incapacitated at some point so that Buffy would be forced to rely on her own. (Of course, that might have made the story too long for the 42 minutes.) And, isn't one of the big joss themes that he doesn't like the idea of the solitary hero? The hero needs friends and lovers and family to survive. Spike attributes the fact she's lasted as long as she has to her social connections.
Another thing regarding Buffy having assistance from Angel in the secret test is that by this time in the series the Buffy-Angel-Lovers is fairly well played out, basically Angel cannot be part of her life. What is compelling and vital in the continued arc is the depth to which Buffy will delve, and, in my opinion, the corruption of her role model as "heroine" and warrior for "forces for good" in the Faith Life Sacrifice. The Buffy-Angel as partners and lovers is completed and has only to be concluded in their separation at the season finale; his playing a part in this rite of passage would be in contradiction. Leaving behind her dependence on Father and taking on the role of Adult and protector (Joyce is the motivation to action) is her test and can only be passed if she acts with her own powers.
The Buffy-Angel story has been told and both characters no longer need to be partnered, Angel can go to LA and establish set his goal and desire to become The Champion and to find his own path to redemption; Buffy will have to continue to grow and attempt to resolve her "normal life" vs. Slayer life. Buffy still has a long and very hard road ahead, even with the Angel crossover episode, her bedroom scene with Angel has her still longing for "normal" - for all the surface layers of "star-crossed lovers," it is "normal" that she is trying to hold onto - and Angel, in a great contrast to "helpless" also really wants to keep his Superhero Vampire Powers.
Unfortunately Buffy is still left with so many complex and unresolved questions about her role throughout most of the series, and I suppose that in the end, this is OK, as life is never simple and the questions are always there.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
does she want to be a superhero and prance down alleys in the middle of the night without a worry in that thick skull of hers or does she want to be a girly girl
She wants to be both. Maybe that sounds greedy to us - "I want the superpowers AND the normal life" - but being the Slayer is both a blessing and a curse, so it's no surprise that she would love it and hate it at the same time. And since she didn't ASK to be the Slayer, why should she be forced to give up her normal life? No one said to her, "Hey, how would you like to trade in school and dating and hanging out with your friends for superpowers, a limitless supply of life-threatening experiences, and a drastically shortened lifespan?" This was something that was forced on her, and even if she accepts her duty and appreciates the benefits of being the Slayer (which may or may not outweigh the costs), that doesn't mean she's going to automatically change her outlook on life and no longer want the things she used to want.
Which brings up the whole question of how and why Slayers are chosen. Why choose someone who's weak, stupid, psychotic, etc.? And, if you're not choosing them haphazardly, why would you need to do the big, dangerous Test?
Well, that's the thing - no one really knows how the Slayers are chosen, not even the Watchers' Council. It's magic. The Council can't control it - if they did, they would only select Slayers who'd been trained as potentials. And I think that's the reason for the test - to give the Council some measure of "quality control" in the Slayers that are chosen.
You're right that there's some element of natural selection - weaker or less skilled Slayers probably won't last long to begin with. But as I mentioned before - that's not all that makes a good Slayer. Can you imagine Faith, for example, sacrificing herself the way Buffy did in The Gift? Can you imagine her killing her lover (assuming she ever got as serious about a guy as Buffy was about Angel) in order to save the world? How many Slayers would've heard that prophecy about the Master and not gone to face him? Even Buffy quit before eventually accepting her fate. How many Slayers could've come up with that plan to defeat Adam?
Not every Slayer has the same level of intelligence, courage, and fortitude. A totally selfish Slayer could probably survive by only tackling fights she knew she could win. A reckless Slayer (like Faith) could survive just by being lucky. That doesn't mean they're prepared to face the things Buffy's had to face. I think the Cruciamentum is meant to weed out Slayers that are weak in areas other than physical strength and skill. I think that's also why it's at 18 - most Slayers don't last that long anyway, and the ones who do have had the chance to develop those characteristics. If they haven't by 18, they probably never will, and the Council would see them as unsalvageable.
And, isn't one of the big joss themes that he doesn't like the idea of the solitary hero?
Yeah, but I think a bigger Joss theme is that the little blonde girl doesn't need saving. If Buffy had to rely on Angel here for assistance, it weakens her as a character. (And yes, I realize that she's been weakened already, and relied on Cordelia for help, but that's just the set up - it's the final battle that matters, and there she cannot appear weak, superpowers or not.) Even if Angel was incapacitated at some point, the fact that she asked him for help at all means she didn't have faith in herself.
Also, just in general, I would argue that Joss treads on both sides of the "solitary hero" line. There are instances where the superiority of teamwork is upheld (Graduation Day, Primeval, as well as Spike's comments), but there's also great emphasis on the Slayer being alone, and needing to bear the burden herself. The way Buffy is often set apart as the one who makes the hard choices (Becoming, Selfless, Dirty Girls) and the sacrifices (Prophecy Girl, Becoming, The Gift), the way Buffy feels isolated because her friends don't understand what she's going through (Anne, Weight of the World, all of season 6), and the way being a Slayer sets her apart as a leader and a warrior. That's the whole point of Chosen, that Buffy is finally not alone. It's also why Faith's turn to the dark side is so disheartening, because Buffy thought she'd finally found a kindred spirit.
She wants to be both. Maybe that sounds greedy to us - "I want the superpowers AND the normal life" - but being the Slayer is both a blessing and a curse, so it's no surprise that she would love it and hate it at the same time. And since she didn't ASK to be the Slayer, why should she be forced to give up her normal life? No one said to her, "Hey, how would you like to trade in school and dating and hanging out with your friends for superpowers, a limitless supply of life-threatening experiences, and a drastically shortened lifespan?" This was something that was forced on her, and even if she accepts her duty and appreciates the benefits of being the Slayer (which may or may not outweigh the costs), that doesn't mean she's going to automatically change her outlook on life and no longer want the things she used to want.
Which brings up the whole question of how and why Slayers are chosen. Why choose someone who's weak, stupid, psychotic, etc.? And, if you're not choosing them haphazardly, why would you need to do the big, dangerous Test?
Well, that's the thing - no one really knows how the Slayers are chosen, not even the Watchers' Council. It's magic. The Council can't control it - if they did, they would only select Slayers who'd been trained as potentials. And I think that's the reason for the test - to give the Council some measure of "quality control" in the Slayers that are chosen.
You're right that there's some element of natural selection - weaker or less skilled Slayers probably won't last long to begin with. But as I mentioned before - that's not all that makes a good Slayer. Can you imagine Faith, for example, sacrificing herself the way Buffy did in The Gift? Can you imagine her killing her lover (assuming she ever got as serious about a guy as Buffy was about Angel) in order to save the world? How many Slayers would've heard that prophecy about the Master and not gone to face him? Even Buffy quit before eventually accepting her fate. How many Slayers could've come up with that plan to defeat Adam?
Not every Slayer has the same level of intelligence, courage, and fortitude. A totally selfish Slayer could probably survive by only tackling fights she knew she could win. A reckless Slayer (like Faith) could survive just by being lucky. That doesn't mean they're prepared to face the things Buffy's had to face. I think the Cruciamentum is meant to weed out Slayers that are weak in areas other than physical strength and skill. I think that's also why it's at 18 - most Slayers don't last that long anyway, and the ones who do have had the chance to develop those characteristics. If they haven't by 18, they probably never will, and the Council would see them as unsalvageable.
And, isn't one of the big joss themes that he doesn't like the idea of the solitary hero?
Yeah, but I think a bigger Joss theme is that the little blonde girl doesn't need saving. If Buffy had to rely on Angel here for assistance, it weakens her as a character. (And yes, I realize that she's been weakened already, and relied on Cordelia for help, but that's just the set up - it's the final battle that matters, and there she cannot appear weak, superpowers or not.) Even if Angel was incapacitated at some point, the fact that she asked him for help at all means she didn't have faith in herself.
Also, just in general, I would argue that Joss treads on both sides of the "solitary hero" line. There are instances where the superiority of teamwork is upheld (Graduation Day, Primeval, as well as Spike's comments), but there's also great emphasis on the Slayer being alone, and needing to bear the burden herself. The way Buffy is often set apart as the one who makes the hard choices (Becoming, Selfless, Dirty Girls) and the sacrifices (Prophecy Girl, Becoming, The Gift), the way Buffy feels isolated because her friends don't understand what she's going through (Anne, Weight of the World, all of season 6), and the way being a Slayer sets her apart as a leader and a warrior. That's the whole point of Chosen, that Buffy is finally not alone. It's also why Faith's turn to the dark side is so disheartening, because Buffy thought she'd finally found a kindred spirit.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
This theme of Buffy , even now with all the other Slayers, being set apart as general is still being explored in Season 8 comics. - The last issue has Willow telling Satsu that Buffy is different and set apart from everyone else. she is still in the position of general and making the final decisions. But she too must, like all top leaders, take the responsibility for her decisions. As Willow tells Satsu "She's not like us, she's the general, we're the army and that's never gonna change."
Anyone else love that Peter Lorre look-alike Butterfield?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 15 2008 03:02 am #13Spikez_tart
Buffy is different and set apart from everyone else - Buffy is distinct from all the other slayers, (apparently). It seems to be her persistent stubborness, refusal to follow rules just because they're there, her questioning attitude, her creative thinking and her belief in herself. I guess this is obvious. Faith shares many of these traits, except possibly belief in herself.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 15 2008 03:37 am #14Scarlet Ibis
Right you are Legen - does she want to be a superhero and prance down alleys in the middle of the night without a worry in that thick skull of hers or does she want to be a girly girl who has to be careful where she goes and what she does (like the rest of us) and ask Cordelia for a ride home?
I think it depends on her current love interest. In this ep, she refuses to let Angel walk her home, to prove to him that she's still strong orwhatever. But in "The Replacement," it appeared as if she wished she could have been hit by Toth's blast, so that she could be a normal girl for Riley. In that relationship, she surpresses her powers. With Angel, she wants to extert them.
I think it depends on her current love interest. In this ep, she refuses to let Angel walk her home, to prove to him that she's still strong orwhatever. But in "The Replacement," it appeared as if she wished she could have been hit by Toth's blast, so that she could be a normal girl for Riley. In that relationship, she surpresses her powers. With Angel, she wants to extert them.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Buffy is distinct from all the other slayers, (apparently). It seems to be her persistent stubborness, refusal to follow rules just because they're there, her questioning attitude, her creative thinking and her belief in herself.
Well, all that is true, but in the context nmcil was talking about, it's that Buffy is different from all the other Slayers because she's the most experienced, she's their leader, and she's still the one making the hard decisions. Even though she's surrounded by other Slayers now, she's still alone - which is an indication that maybe it's not just about being the Slayer, it's a facet of Buffy's personality in particular. Although, to be fair, no other Slayer has had the experience of being the only one, not even Faith.
Well, all that is true, but in the context nmcil was talking about, it's that Buffy is different from all the other Slayers because she's the most experienced, she's their leader, and she's still the one making the hard decisions. Even though she's surrounded by other Slayers now, she's still alone - which is an indication that maybe it's not just about being the Slayer, it's a facet of Buffy's personality in particular. Although, to be fair, no other Slayer has had the experience of being the only one, not even Faith.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Good points and fascinating disc ussion! I want to add another angle about it that I read in someone's fanfic story lately (but alas, I can't remember whose!). It dealt with the Council thinking of itself as the important element and the Slayer merely being the tool of the Council. As such, the Council wanted to keep all the power and have a young, pliable slayer it could boss around. This fanfic story's idea was that when a girl reached 18 she had become old and experienced enough to be a free thinker, so the Cruc. was the Council's way of actually getting rid of the best (and most independent) slayers so a new, younger one would be called that they could control again.
I thought it was a very interesting point--and I wouldn't put it past old beady-eyed Travers for a minute!!!
I thought it was a very interesting point--and I wouldn't put it past old beady-eyed Travers for a minute!!!
I've read that before, either the same story or one with a similar theme, and while interesting, it strikes me as a little too conspiracy theorist. I can see the Council eliminating problem Slayers (like Faith), but it seems foolish to deliberately set out to kill your best Slayers just because they might be independent thinkers. The Council must realize that the longer a Slayer survives, and the more experience she has, the better a Slayer she is. Killing her to get a new, younger Slayer called means they're continually starting from scratch with untrained novices who can't do as good a job. Why wouldn't they take advantage of the skills the experienced Slayer has gained as long as they possibly can?
And what if they have a well-trained, perfectly obedient Slayer like Kendra? Would she still have to be tested, even though she'd never cause trouble or act independently? There's no evidence that the Council only targets certain Slayers - all Slayers must be subjected to the Cruciamentum - so it would follow that there's some other purpose besides eliminating the difficult Slayers, and that the goal isn't to kill them off.
Also, if the goal was to get rid of older Slayers in order for a new one to be called, why have Buffy do the Cruciamentum at all? She's already died, and the Slayer line has moved on. Killing her won't do a thing - and between Buffy and Faith, Buffy was definitely the easier one to control.
And what if they have a well-trained, perfectly obedient Slayer like Kendra? Would she still have to be tested, even though she'd never cause trouble or act independently? There's no evidence that the Council only targets certain Slayers - all Slayers must be subjected to the Cruciamentum - so it would follow that there's some other purpose besides eliminating the difficult Slayers, and that the goal isn't to kill them off.
Also, if the goal was to get rid of older Slayers in order for a new one to be called, why have Buffy do the Cruciamentum at all? She's already died, and the Slayer line has moved on. Killing her won't do a thing - and between Buffy and Faith, Buffy was definitely the easier one to control.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
...it strikes me as a little too conspiracy theorist. I can see the Council eliminating problem Slayers (like Faith), but it seems foolish to deliberately set out to kill your best Slayers just because they might be independent thinkers. The Council must realize that the longer a Slayer survives, and the more experience she has, the better a Slayer she is. Killing her to get a new, younger Slayer called means they're continually starting from scratch with untrained novices who can't do as good a job. Why wouldn't they take advantage of the skills the experienced Slayer has gained as long as they possibly can?
And what if they have a well-trained, perfectly obedient Slayer like Kendra? Would she still have to be tested, even though she'd never cause trouble or act independently? There's no evidence that the Council only targets certain Slayers - all Slayers must be subjected to the Cruciamentum - so it would follow that there's some other purpose besides eliminating the difficult Slayers, and that the goal isn't to kill them off.
If I divorce myself from the idea that this is a television show restrained by the issues production would entail (such as cobbling creativity with silly complications like a budget), I actually could very easily buy the conspiracy route despite the fact we don't have reams of canon evidence for it. Why? Because at it's heart the Cruciamentum seems sound (secrecy nonsense aside) until one takes a look at the intended particulars - super powered monster confined in a locked space with an averagely gifted (physically anyway) human without any weapons who has been surprised by the confrontation (through a betrayal the slayer is bound to figure out very quickly into the event, thus putting her at another disadvantage mentally). As Spike said in a later season, vampires always already have their weapon built in, their fangs. No matter how brilliant, how witty, how incredible or resourceful the person the odds are stacked far, far too high in the vampire's favor for this to be a simple coming of age tradition or even a training tool. It is a deliberately designed weeding method to keep control firmly in the hands of the Watchers. Even a novice slayer is gifted with innate skills that will get the job done. She might not know the names of her favorite kicking moves, or understand the science behind why a crossbow works, or read a dozen demon languages but she's already got the skills, and instincts as soon as she gets the tap. That's canon.
Now, in Buffy's case she took weapons, knew what she was walking into (along with her limitations) and had a very strong motivator - her captured mother - which ultimately led to her lucking out. Keep in mind she won because the vampire's handlers addicted him to medication, and she used that need against him. Sure, she tricked the vampire but ultimately it was luck because without the holy water she couldn't hope to win and there is no way she could have known about his little pill problem. If the Council was actually thinking about the benefits of keeping a well trained experienced slayer alive the entire event would either be reconstructed or scrapped. Instead, they continued it. They also controlled it. No fresh out of the grave, well-fed, stupid vampire for Buffy. No. They took a guy who was a psychotic serial killer before being turned. Gee. Wasn't that nice of them? In fact, if they kept the well-fed, fresh, stupid ones for the easily controlled and Council trained slayers, saving the strong, half-starved, psychotic ones for the difficult slayers then they've kept to the letter of the tradition and kept their hands clean no matter which slayers died or survived.
Ultimately, for the Council slayers are an unending resource. Kill one, let one die, fail to locate, another will pop up. They could literally do whatever they like with a thin veneer of tradition and civilization to keep them looking like an upstanding organization - at least to one another. And if the current slayer turns out to be a bit of a hassle they just have to deal with her until her watcher delivers her up for the slaughter, guilty consciences clean because it's tradition.
From a writing standpoint I have no idea what they were thinking with this episode. Seriously. It was like, "here's a cup of angst, enjoy," and then business as usual. It was like a stubbed finger sticking out all red and swollen, a disjointed piece in an otherwise harmonious season. (Er, except for maybe "Earshot" ). What purpose did it serve? Really? From a story progression standpoint? Aside from adding drama .... that was completely ignored by the very next episode. I usually like David Fury episodes, but this one had me shaking my head in confusion. Sure it opened the door for Wesley, and I suppose some of the back story for the team that is later sent after Faith, but, eh, not really enough to justify the distrust it should have sown between Buffy and her Watcher. Giles sticking a needle in Buffy to incapacitate her and sending her one her way to patrol? Former demon-raising rebel Giles toeing the company line to endanger and possibly kill Buffy in the name of tradition? I just didn't buy it.
Still, with all the above stated, I can see that by itself it was a great episode. Good dialog, good acting, fantastic extras, well plotted and edited. But, as part of a whole season, not that great. Annoying really.
But then again, I'm really picky. :)
And what if they have a well-trained, perfectly obedient Slayer like Kendra? Would she still have to be tested, even though she'd never cause trouble or act independently? There's no evidence that the Council only targets certain Slayers - all Slayers must be subjected to the Cruciamentum - so it would follow that there's some other purpose besides eliminating the difficult Slayers, and that the goal isn't to kill them off.
If I divorce myself from the idea that this is a television show restrained by the issues production would entail (such as cobbling creativity with silly complications like a budget), I actually could very easily buy the conspiracy route despite the fact we don't have reams of canon evidence for it. Why? Because at it's heart the Cruciamentum seems sound (secrecy nonsense aside) until one takes a look at the intended particulars - super powered monster confined in a locked space with an averagely gifted (physically anyway) human without any weapons who has been surprised by the confrontation (through a betrayal the slayer is bound to figure out very quickly into the event, thus putting her at another disadvantage mentally). As Spike said in a later season, vampires always already have their weapon built in, their fangs. No matter how brilliant, how witty, how incredible or resourceful the person the odds are stacked far, far too high in the vampire's favor for this to be a simple coming of age tradition or even a training tool. It is a deliberately designed weeding method to keep control firmly in the hands of the Watchers. Even a novice slayer is gifted with innate skills that will get the job done. She might not know the names of her favorite kicking moves, or understand the science behind why a crossbow works, or read a dozen demon languages but she's already got the skills, and instincts as soon as she gets the tap. That's canon.
Now, in Buffy's case she took weapons, knew what she was walking into (along with her limitations) and had a very strong motivator - her captured mother - which ultimately led to her lucking out. Keep in mind she won because the vampire's handlers addicted him to medication, and she used that need against him. Sure, she tricked the vampire but ultimately it was luck because without the holy water she couldn't hope to win and there is no way she could have known about his little pill problem. If the Council was actually thinking about the benefits of keeping a well trained experienced slayer alive the entire event would either be reconstructed or scrapped. Instead, they continued it. They also controlled it. No fresh out of the grave, well-fed, stupid vampire for Buffy. No. They took a guy who was a psychotic serial killer before being turned. Gee. Wasn't that nice of them? In fact, if they kept the well-fed, fresh, stupid ones for the easily controlled and Council trained slayers, saving the strong, half-starved, psychotic ones for the difficult slayers then they've kept to the letter of the tradition and kept their hands clean no matter which slayers died or survived.
Ultimately, for the Council slayers are an unending resource. Kill one, let one die, fail to locate, another will pop up. They could literally do whatever they like with a thin veneer of tradition and civilization to keep them looking like an upstanding organization - at least to one another. And if the current slayer turns out to be a bit of a hassle they just have to deal with her until her watcher delivers her up for the slaughter, guilty consciences clean because it's tradition.
From a writing standpoint I have no idea what they were thinking with this episode. Seriously. It was like, "here's a cup of angst, enjoy," and then business as usual. It was like a stubbed finger sticking out all red and swollen, a disjointed piece in an otherwise harmonious season. (Er, except for maybe "Earshot" ). What purpose did it serve? Really? From a story progression standpoint? Aside from adding drama .... that was completely ignored by the very next episode. I usually like David Fury episodes, but this one had me shaking my head in confusion. Sure it opened the door for Wesley, and I suppose some of the back story for the team that is later sent after Faith, but, eh, not really enough to justify the distrust it should have sown between Buffy and her Watcher. Giles sticking a needle in Buffy to incapacitate her and sending her one her way to patrol? Former demon-raising rebel Giles toeing the company line to endanger and possibly kill Buffy in the name of tradition? I just didn't buy it.
Still, with all the above stated, I can see that by itself it was a great episode. Good dialog, good acting, fantastic extras, well plotted and edited. But, as part of a whole season, not that great. Annoying really.
But then again, I'm really picky. :)
~ Q
Quark -
Excellent points, great post - what happens if you place your ideas in the context of the political dynamics, say we start with the Vietnam Era into today? Are not the qualities that an Independent and Creative thinking human, like Buffy in this test, make a very different social order. The traditions, i.e., CoW command structure and hold that traditions have on all real world societies, would be broken. Giles as the potential betrayer of Parental Care, just like so many parents and agencies in the real world, is directly responsible for the knowledge and world views they pass on to their progeny. If Buffy and Giles as the metaphor of breaking strangled hold of traditions on their lives, this rite of passage and episode takes on a very particular meaning. Of course, I do not suggest that this has anything to do with the intention of the writer, but this is one way that I see this episode.
In my world view, the single most important development for human beings is this elimination of an unquestioned acceptance of the power structure supported by unquestioned acceptance of "Traditions." -
And I think that is why having those sleazy men making their cheesy advances to Buffy, why Giles had to be part of the betrayal and test, why Travers as Power Elite had to control everything, why some of The Watchers became victims of their own test, why Joyce, both as motivation and metaphor had also to be included, and why finally Buffy has to find her own strength and intelligence. As you say, tons and tons of Good Luck in the circumstances, but what is a vital part of all the luck, was that Buffy had to be able to act upon that luck - having a lucky break is only one part of success - a huge part of having Fortuna touch you life, is what you make of that encounter. For sure, the writers set-up all the clues and possibility but the artful warrior had to see and act on those clues.
The cycle of the test is two-parts, Buffy & Giles as finding and starting their liberation and Travers as the symbol of The Power of Controls -
You should write a story for us - The Buffyverse can also use a great new tale of The Slayers and Power Structures - especially with Season 8 and this whole new world of Slayers and World Power - it's a really interesting theme to explore.
Excellent points, great post - what happens if you place your ideas in the context of the political dynamics, say we start with the Vietnam Era into today? Are not the qualities that an Independent and Creative thinking human, like Buffy in this test, make a very different social order. The traditions, i.e., CoW command structure and hold that traditions have on all real world societies, would be broken. Giles as the potential betrayer of Parental Care, just like so many parents and agencies in the real world, is directly responsible for the knowledge and world views they pass on to their progeny. If Buffy and Giles as the metaphor of breaking strangled hold of traditions on their lives, this rite of passage and episode takes on a very particular meaning. Of course, I do not suggest that this has anything to do with the intention of the writer, but this is one way that I see this episode.
In my world view, the single most important development for human beings is this elimination of an unquestioned acceptance of the power structure supported by unquestioned acceptance of "Traditions." -
And I think that is why having those sleazy men making their cheesy advances to Buffy, why Giles had to be part of the betrayal and test, why Travers as Power Elite had to control everything, why some of The Watchers became victims of their own test, why Joyce, both as motivation and metaphor had also to be included, and why finally Buffy has to find her own strength and intelligence. As you say, tons and tons of Good Luck in the circumstances, but what is a vital part of all the luck, was that Buffy had to be able to act upon that luck - having a lucky break is only one part of success - a huge part of having Fortuna touch you life, is what you make of that encounter. For sure, the writers set-up all the clues and possibility but the artful warrior had to see and act on those clues.
The cycle of the test is two-parts, Buffy & Giles as finding and starting their liberation and Travers as the symbol of The Power of Controls -
You should write a story for us - The Buffyverse can also use a great new tale of The Slayers and Power Structures - especially with Season 8 and this whole new world of Slayers and World Power - it's a really interesting theme to explore.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I will be gone and without access to computer starting tomorrow - could someone please start the next Episode Discussion -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 17 2008 01:15 pm #21Spikez_tart
Council's way of actually getting rid of the best (and most independent) slayers so a new, younger one would be called that they could control again. - As much as I love a good conspiracy, the Cruc would have the opposite effect - the test would get rid of the least independent slayer.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
As much as I love a good conspiracy, the Cruc would have the opposite effect - the test would get rid of the least independent slayer.
Independent isn't synonymous with good. In some cases it can be detrimental to be too independent. Also, if the Council is controlling all of the variables of the Cruciamentum then they could very easily stack the odds in the favor of those they wanted to survive. Why bring a psychotic serial-killer-turned-vampire to Buffy's coming of age event when Sunnydale had their weekly risings, easily tracked and easily captured before they popped out of the ground? If the tradition is merely to put the slayer up against a vampire why choose the experienced criminal? Why not Bob the cabinet maker? Or Susie the soccer mom?
Independent isn't synonymous with good. In some cases it can be detrimental to be too independent. Also, if the Council is controlling all of the variables of the Cruciamentum then they could very easily stack the odds in the favor of those they wanted to survive. Why bring a psychotic serial-killer-turned-vampire to Buffy's coming of age event when Sunnydale had their weekly risings, easily tracked and easily captured before they popped out of the ground? If the tradition is merely to put the slayer up against a vampire why choose the experienced criminal? Why not Bob the cabinet maker? Or Susie the soccer mom?
~ Q
Apr 18 2008 02:17 am #23Spikez_tart
Independent isn't synonymous with good - no, not necessarily in real life, but JW sets up Buffy as the longest lived, most successful Slayer (okay which doesn't make sense because she died once already by this point) because she is an independent thinker. Giles recognizes this and tries to explain to bonehead Wesley. Kendra, who is very devoted to the cause and apparently not much conflicted by her total lack of a normal life, is incapable of thinking for herself and gets her throat slashed.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
no, not necessarily in real life, but JW sets up Buffy as the longest lived, most successful Slayer (okay which doesn't make sense because she died once already by this point) because she is an independent thinker. Giles recognizes this and tries to explain to bonehead Wesley. Kendra, who is very devoted to the cause and apparently not much conflicted by her total lack of a normal life, is incapable of thinking for herself and gets her throat slashed.
But what does that have to do with the Cruicamentum? And its validity as a test between independent thinkers and Council-dependent thinkers? My point is simply that the tradition of the Cruicamentum, what we are given in canon on screen, plays very neatly into the idea that the Council used it as a weeding method, or at the very least, a means of controlling the slayer. They control all the variables making the skill/independence/experience of the slayer involved a moot point. Ordering the death of a slayer outright simply because she was difficult, or didn't toe the line, is something one can imagine wouldn't go over very well with the organization as a whole - keep in mind these guys think of themselves as on the side of Good - but if the difficult slayer just happen to fall during a long standing time honored coming of age ritual, eh, oh well. It wasn't like they killed her; it was the vampire that did it.
But what does that have to do with the Cruicamentum? And its validity as a test between independent thinkers and Council-dependent thinkers? My point is simply that the tradition of the Cruicamentum, what we are given in canon on screen, plays very neatly into the idea that the Council used it as a weeding method, or at the very least, a means of controlling the slayer. They control all the variables making the skill/independence/experience of the slayer involved a moot point. Ordering the death of a slayer outright simply because she was difficult, or didn't toe the line, is something one can imagine wouldn't go over very well with the organization as a whole - keep in mind these guys think of themselves as on the side of Good - but if the difficult slayer just happen to fall during a long standing time honored coming of age ritual, eh, oh well. It wasn't like they killed her; it was the vampire that did it.
~ Q
Thank you, Quark! You said what I was trying to bring up more eloquently than I did when I expressed the idea that the Council used the Cruciamentum to control who lived and who died. I have no doubt that Travers set it up by specifically choosing the powerful psycho-vamp because he had no intention of Buffy surviving the experience. (Maybe he thought her independence would influence Kendra's replacement--little did he know what Faith was like!--or maybe he hoped Buffy dying again would call yet another slayer. Whatever it was, we do know he would turn his back on her totally later and refuse to help save Angel after he was poisoned by Faith, and that he would use the Glory incident to try to get control of Buffy again.)
The deck was really stacked against a helpless Buffy, and I think had the Cruciamentum gone the way it was planned--Buffy going in with no warning, she might well have not survived. Luck and love are what saved her: Giles loved her enough to warn her so that she was able to take supplies that would ultimately save her. And Buffy loved her mother enough to find extra determination and creativity to save her mom. Buffy was the real hero type who always seemed to be able to find extra reserves and fortitude when she had to rescue someone else--something she couldn't always do when it was just herself who needed to be saved (especially metaphorically in season 6).
Apr 22 2008 04:14 am #26Spikez_tart
But what does that have to do with the Cruciamentum? ... the Council used it as a weeding method
Okay - but I'm saying that it would backfire to their intentions to weed out any Slayers who refused to fall in with the Council control line - the independent minded girl is the one most likely survive The Council would only succeed in weeding out the stupid and the weak minded (presumably the Slayers all have approximately the same strength level). Buffy's strength is her ability to think on her own (as compared to Kendra who meekly follows everything her Watcher tells her and Faith, who doesn't really think, just jumps into that big hole full of vampires without even seeing how many there are.)
Buffy going in with no warning, she might well have not survived - actually the writers tipped you off early that Buffy was able to survive by her wits alone. In the beginning scene where Buffy is fighting a vamp in the playground, she loses her strength and figures out how to kill the vamp by holding up her stake and letting him impale himself on it. And, I don't think the holy water thing was just luck. She has all her weapons with her and she takes advantage of an opportunity to outwit a much stronger foe.
Does anyone remember what we were going to discuss next?
Okay - but I'm saying that it would backfire to their intentions to weed out any Slayers who refused to fall in with the Council control line - the independent minded girl is the one most likely survive The Council would only succeed in weeding out the stupid and the weak minded (presumably the Slayers all have approximately the same strength level). Buffy's strength is her ability to think on her own (as compared to Kendra who meekly follows everything her Watcher tells her and Faith, who doesn't really think, just jumps into that big hole full of vampires without even seeing how many there are.)
Buffy going in with no warning, she might well have not survived - actually the writers tipped you off early that Buffy was able to survive by her wits alone. In the beginning scene where Buffy is fighting a vamp in the playground, she loses her strength and figures out how to kill the vamp by holding up her stake and letting him impale himself on it. And, I don't think the holy water thing was just luck. She has all her weapons with her and she takes advantage of an opportunity to outwit a much stronger foe.
Does anyone remember what we were going to discuss next?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
slayers who refused to fall in with the Council control line - the independent minded girl is the one most likely survive The Council would only succeed in weeding out the stupid and the weak minded (presumably the Slayers all have approximately the same strength level).
Well sure, if one makes the assumption the Council is handing out the same situation for each slayer no matter their background. My point is the story lends itself to the idea that is exactly what the Council isn't doing, hence stacking the deck in favor of those they want to survive. No question that in a straight up situation the strong willed stubborn slayer is going to come out on top, but what we're addressing is the idea that the Council was in complete control of the Cruciamentum, in control of all the variables hence controlling the likely outcome no matter how brilliant the slayer.
Does anyone remember what we were going to discuss next?
No idea. Did we skip "Lover's Walk" and "The Wish" ? I wouldn't mind discussing either, or even putting "The Wish" and "Dopplegangland" together since they tie in. "The Zeppo" and "Bad Girls" are next in the season so either is fine. Personally I think it would make sense to lump "Bad Girls," "Consequences," and "Enemies" together since they represent a three episode arc illustrating Faith's downfall and Buffy's personal struggles (the darker sides of her personality) with herself as both slayer and a normal teenager. Just a thought. "The Zeppo" is one of my favorites but I'm a tad worried a discussion of that episode could fall into a Xander-bash, which I'd like to avoid if possible.
Well sure, if one makes the assumption the Council is handing out the same situation for each slayer no matter their background. My point is the story lends itself to the idea that is exactly what the Council isn't doing, hence stacking the deck in favor of those they want to survive. No question that in a straight up situation the strong willed stubborn slayer is going to come out on top, but what we're addressing is the idea that the Council was in complete control of the Cruciamentum, in control of all the variables hence controlling the likely outcome no matter how brilliant the slayer.
Does anyone remember what we were going to discuss next?
No idea. Did we skip "Lover's Walk" and "The Wish" ? I wouldn't mind discussing either, or even putting "The Wish" and "Dopplegangland" together since they tie in. "The Zeppo" and "Bad Girls" are next in the season so either is fine. Personally I think it would make sense to lump "Bad Girls," "Consequences," and "Enemies" together since they represent a three episode arc illustrating Faith's downfall and Buffy's personal struggles (the darker sides of her personality) with herself as both slayer and a normal teenager. Just a thought. "The Zeppo" is one of my favorites but I'm a tad worried a discussion of that episode could fall into a Xander-bash, which I'd like to avoid if possible.
~ Q
Oct 22 2008 08:33 pm #28goldenusagi
I was thinking about this episode again, and instead of starting a new thread, brought this one back up.
Buffy’s power loss seems to be an instant thing, not a gradual one. We even get a little sound effect when she’s patrolling on the playground and it hits her. I’m assuming Giles injected her during her focus on the stones just prior. He does it again the next night, and this time we see it. I wonder if the dosage required any times that we didn’t see, before she lost her powers.
The next day when she tells Giles something is wrong, he waves her off, suggesting she’s ill. Obviously the Slayer isn’t supposed to know about the test. Later he invalidates it because he tells her. Which begs the question, what was supposed to happen if it had gone right? He says he was supposed to direct her to the old house. Seems like that would be odd, since he already told her she could take a break from patrolling, and knows that she’s in no condition to fight. From her perspective, I mean. Giles knows she’s helpless, tells her to take it easy, and then what, casually mentions an old house she should check out?
Does anyone wonder if Faith had this on her birthday? She is supposed to be in the same class as the Scoobies, isn’t she? I wonder if she hit her 18th already. Later, of course, she was too busy being evil for the Council to be worrying about things like the Cruciamentum. They couldn’t even capture her with the team. (Which is a whole other question—if you had a rogue Slayer, wouldn’t some muscle relaxing organic compounds be good? Unless they really do take several doses to take effect.)When do we find out Faith's age? I've always assumed she was younger than Buffy, given that she was called after Buffy was, but I don't recall her age ever being specifically stated.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 23 2008 04:15 am #31Scarlet Ibis
Later he invalidates it because he tells her. Which begs the question, what was supposed to happen if it had gone right? He says he was supposed to direct her to the old house. Seems like that would be odd, since he already told her she could take a break from patrolling, and knows that she’s in no condition to fight. From her perspective, I mean. Giles knows she’s helpless, tells her to take it easy, and then what, casually mentions an old house she should check out?
He only invalidated the test for himself--Buffy fulfilled what she was supposed to do, which was to take down a strong vampire using only her wits. If it had gone completely right, Giles would have never told her of his part in her losing her strength.
If Giles hadn't grown a conscience, I imagine that he would just give her a very convincing speech about it still being her sacred duty (but Faith was around then, but is curiously MIA during this ep), and that she must go. "Buffy, sure physically you are not the same. But what makes you a great slayer--a superior slayer, is in fact your mind. It is your actions; your sense of survival. Your resourcefulness. Strength is nothing without the knowledge to back it up," or something along those lines I imagine :P
He only invalidated the test for himself--Buffy fulfilled what she was supposed to do, which was to take down a strong vampire using only her wits. If it had gone completely right, Giles would have never told her of his part in her losing her strength.
If Giles hadn't grown a conscience, I imagine that he would just give her a very convincing speech about it still being her sacred duty (but Faith was around then, but is curiously MIA during this ep), and that she must go. "Buffy, sure physically you are not the same. But what makes you a great slayer--a superior slayer, is in fact your mind. It is your actions; your sense of survival. Your resourcefulness. Strength is nothing without the knowledge to back it up," or something along those lines I imagine :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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He only invalidated the test for himself--Buffy fulfilled what she was supposed to do, which was to take down a strong vampire using only her wits.
I got the impression that Giles thought he had invalidated the test for both of them - he tells Buffy "you're safe now." Buffy never would've fulfilled her part of it had Kralik not kidnapped her mother, but since she did, I guess the Council was willing to count that as her test. Generous of them, isn't it? :-P
Also, I think the way Giles would've gotten her to the house is he would've driven her there and locked her in without telling her what she was supposed to do. Then, if she made it out, she gets a "congratulations, you passed the test you didn't know you were taking."
I got the impression that Giles thought he had invalidated the test for both of them - he tells Buffy "you're safe now." Buffy never would've fulfilled her part of it had Kralik not kidnapped her mother, but since she did, I guess the Council was willing to count that as her test. Generous of them, isn't it? :-P
Also, I think the way Giles would've gotten her to the house is he would've driven her there and locked her in without telling her what she was supposed to do. Then, if she made it out, she gets a "congratulations, you passed the test you didn't know you were taking."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 24 2008 11:27 am #33Spikez_tart
would've driven her there and locked her in without telling her what she was supposed to do. Then, if she made it out - That's a cold cold thought.
Wouldn't Giles have known about this test before it came up? Years before? Yet, it's only after he's already drugged Buffy and incapacitated her and put her in incredible danger that he decides to grow a spine. Giles becomes a more and more unlikeable character as the years go by.
Wouldn't Giles have known about this test before it came up? Years before? Yet, it's only after he's already drugged Buffy and incapacitated her and put her in incredible danger that he decides to grow a spine. Giles becomes a more and more unlikeable character as the years go by.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 24 2008 03:54 pm #34goldenusagi
Hmm, Faith probably would be younger than Buffy, since she was called later. And Faith does go MIA when the plot only calls for one Slayer, LOL.
Giles did invalidate it for himself, but the way he talked, it seemed like the whole test might be invalidated. Like if she knew anything about it, it was going to be void. Which again, is sort of weird. I mean, what would be the problem of just *telling* the Slayer that she had to do this? Hell, if they still wanted to be bastards about it, inject her and then tell her. But to have no idea is a huge disadvantage on her part. (Of course, that all depends on speculation on whether Giles would have prepared her with a speech about her duty and some weapons, without mentioning it was a test, or just taken her there and not mentioned anything.) Buffy already has no strength, but it's interesting to wonder about how much knowledge the Council intended to give her, and why.
Giles did invalidate it for himself, but the way he talked, it seemed like the whole test might be invalidated. Like if she knew anything about it, it was going to be void. Which again, is sort of weird. I mean, what would be the problem of just *telling* the Slayer that she had to do this? Hell, if they still wanted to be bastards about it, inject her and then tell her. But to have no idea is a huge disadvantage on her part. (Of course, that all depends on speculation on whether Giles would have prepared her with a speech about her duty and some weapons, without mentioning it was a test, or just taken her there and not mentioned anything.) Buffy already has no strength, but it's interesting to wonder about how much knowledge the Council intended to give her, and why.
Yet, it's only after he's already drugged Buffy and incapacitated her and put her in incredible danger that he decides to grow a spine. Giles becomes a more and more unlikeable character as the years go by.
Awww, poor Giles. Can't you look at the situation from his point of view? :(
I actually liked Giles a lot more after this episode. This was the defining moment where Giles realized that he does have parental feelings toward Buffy. Before, he had always thought his relationship with her was a practical watcher/slayer one, that his concerned feelings toward her when she's in danger have more to do with him failing his slayer rather than him worrying about Buffy for Buffy.
To me, Giles becomes a dislikable character in S7, but before that, I think he was the closest, most trusted man in Buffy's life, especially in S5, I can't help but awww the Buffy/Giles scenes in that season. :)
And let's not forget that Helpless played another important role in the Buffyverse--it spawned some great, creative fanfiction. I remember one where Spike was the vamp put in the house to confront Buffy, and it ended up more as a "make love, not war" scenario! I'd enjoy reading more Helpless fanfics if anyone has some to recommend.
But to have no idea is a huge disadvantage on her part.
Well, I think that's the point - that's what they're testing. I mean, a vampire doesn't usually give you warning that they're going to try to kill you (unless they're Spike, but then they won't follow through on the plan anyway), so the Slayer is supposed to be prepared for any situation at any time, with no notice or advance planning. Notice that when Buffy knows what she's facing, she stocks up on weapons - particularly holy water, which takes no skill to wield, since she knows she has no powers. I would guess that under normal circumstances, they don't want the Slayer to be that prepared walking into the test. The purpose is to test the Slayer's "cunning and imagination" and quick thinking, for her to use the limited resources available in her environment and be creative. Buffy's using the holy water was clever, which is probably why they let it slide, but strictly speaking, I think it was against the rules, since nobody ever mentions the Slayer being armed or prepared in any way when she goes into her test.
Well, I think that's the point - that's what they're testing. I mean, a vampire doesn't usually give you warning that they're going to try to kill you (unless they're Spike, but then they won't follow through on the plan anyway), so the Slayer is supposed to be prepared for any situation at any time, with no notice or advance planning. Notice that when Buffy knows what she's facing, she stocks up on weapons - particularly holy water, which takes no skill to wield, since she knows she has no powers. I would guess that under normal circumstances, they don't want the Slayer to be that prepared walking into the test. The purpose is to test the Slayer's "cunning and imagination" and quick thinking, for her to use the limited resources available in her environment and be creative. Buffy's using the holy water was clever, which is probably why they let it slide, but strictly speaking, I think it was against the rules, since nobody ever mentions the Slayer being armed or prepared in any way when she goes into her test.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
While the test is cruel, I actually think it's necessary for every slayer. It makes them depend on more than strength since they no longer have.
Oct 25 2008 03:50 pm #39goldenusagi
a vampire doesn't usually give you warning that they're going to try to kill you (unless they're Spike)
LOL.
Notice that when Buffy knows what she's facing, she stocks up on weapons. I would guess that under normal circumstances, they don't want the Slayer to be that prepared walking into the test. The purpose is to test the Slayer's "cunning and imagination" and quick thinking, for her to use the limited resources available in her environment and be creative.
Hmm. One the one hand, yes, but on the other, maybe no. Buffy is going into a closed environment, specifically set up for the test. It's not like she has tons of props to work with, like tree branches, or pumpkin patch signs, or pool cues. Did the Council leave things that can be creatively used by the Slayer? Like knives in the kitchen or an old wooden chair. They prepared the house, closing off windows and such, so they must be aware of its contents. To take it to the extreme example, if you have a cement room with nothing but a vampire in it, and lock a girl in there, there's no outcome but her death. You either have to leave rudimentary weapons around, or you have to allow her minimal weaponry when she goes in. Though I would assume that at any given time, Buffy has a stake on her.
But obviously the show did not get that detailed. It would depend on how Buffy was going to be told (or just dropped off), on what weapons she would have on her, or if there were things that had been purposefully left in the house by the Council. (Unless of course you want to go conspiracy theory and say that they had no intention of this Slayer surviving her test.) Obviously she wouldn't have been allowed an entire duffel bag of weapons, but I wonder what she would have been allowed.
Buffy's using the holy water was clever, which is probably why they let it slide
Did they actually know that she used holy water? All of the Council men were dead. Though I assume how she killed the vampire came up, reporting to Travers, or something.
LOL.
Notice that when Buffy knows what she's facing, she stocks up on weapons. I would guess that under normal circumstances, they don't want the Slayer to be that prepared walking into the test. The purpose is to test the Slayer's "cunning and imagination" and quick thinking, for her to use the limited resources available in her environment and be creative.
Hmm. One the one hand, yes, but on the other, maybe no. Buffy is going into a closed environment, specifically set up for the test. It's not like she has tons of props to work with, like tree branches, or pumpkin patch signs, or pool cues. Did the Council leave things that can be creatively used by the Slayer? Like knives in the kitchen or an old wooden chair. They prepared the house, closing off windows and such, so they must be aware of its contents. To take it to the extreme example, if you have a cement room with nothing but a vampire in it, and lock a girl in there, there's no outcome but her death. You either have to leave rudimentary weapons around, or you have to allow her minimal weaponry when she goes in. Though I would assume that at any given time, Buffy has a stake on her.
But obviously the show did not get that detailed. It would depend on how Buffy was going to be told (or just dropped off), on what weapons she would have on her, or if there were things that had been purposefully left in the house by the Council. (Unless of course you want to go conspiracy theory and say that they had no intention of this Slayer surviving her test.) Obviously she wouldn't have been allowed an entire duffel bag of weapons, but I wonder what she would have been allowed.
Buffy's using the holy water was clever, which is probably why they let it slide
Did they actually know that she used holy water? All of the Council men were dead. Though I assume how she killed the vampire came up, reporting to Travers, or something.
Did the Council leave things that can be creatively used by the Slayer? Like knives in the kitchen or an old wooden chair.
Well, the crate Kralik was in was made of wood. Also, the Watcher that gets vamped uses an ax to free Kralik - not sure whether they'd have left the ax behind for Buffy. The stair rail is made of wood (Giles breaks off one of the supports to use as a stake when he realizes everyone's dead), so that's another weapon for her. There's a fire in the fireplace, so had she wanted to kill Kralik by setting him on fire, she'd have a source. There's also plenty of furniture - Buffy uses a bookcase to incapacitate the Watcher vampire, knocking it over on top of him, and there's a wooden (I think) table and chair (to which Joyce is tied with rope) in the basement. So I think they probably did think about the environment she'd be in and chose a old house, so there'd be a lot of wood, and made sure there were things she could use. I don't think she would've been able to bring in anything extra, though. But hey, she was only supposed to fight one vampire, not two, and her mother wasn't supposed to be part of the equation, so I'd say it evens out.
Did they actually know that she used holy water? All of the Council men were dead. Though I assume how she killed the vampire came up, reporting to Travers, or something.
Yeah, I figured she had to tell them how she did it in order for Travers to say she'd passed. Also, Joyce saw the whole thing, so she could've said something as well. Travers probably knew she brought the bag in (he says he saw her enter the field of play, so he must have seen her carrying it), but like I said, they probably let it slide since these were unusual circumstances.
Well, the crate Kralik was in was made of wood. Also, the Watcher that gets vamped uses an ax to free Kralik - not sure whether they'd have left the ax behind for Buffy. The stair rail is made of wood (Giles breaks off one of the supports to use as a stake when he realizes everyone's dead), so that's another weapon for her. There's a fire in the fireplace, so had she wanted to kill Kralik by setting him on fire, she'd have a source. There's also plenty of furniture - Buffy uses a bookcase to incapacitate the Watcher vampire, knocking it over on top of him, and there's a wooden (I think) table and chair (to which Joyce is tied with rope) in the basement. So I think they probably did think about the environment she'd be in and chose a old house, so there'd be a lot of wood, and made sure there were things she could use. I don't think she would've been able to bring in anything extra, though. But hey, she was only supposed to fight one vampire, not two, and her mother wasn't supposed to be part of the equation, so I'd say it evens out.
Did they actually know that she used holy water? All of the Council men were dead. Though I assume how she killed the vampire came up, reporting to Travers, or something.
Yeah, I figured she had to tell them how she did it in order for Travers to say she'd passed. Also, Joyce saw the whole thing, so she could've said something as well. Travers probably knew she brought the bag in (he says he saw her enter the field of play, so he must have seen her carrying it), but like I said, they probably let it slide since these were unusual circumstances.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 25 2008 06:37 pm #41goldenusagi
Hmm, I'd forgotten about Giles breaking off a piece of the staircase... So yeah, there was definitely plenty of wood around for her to use.
I guess the vampires left the fire going? Seems like it should have died from the time that the Watchers were killed until the time that Buffy got there. Unless it was gas or something.
I guess the vampires left the fire going? Seems like it should have died from the time that the Watchers were killed until the time that Buffy got there. Unless it was gas or something.
Oct 25 2008 07:06 pm #42Scarlet Ibis
So I think they probably did think about the environment she'd be in and chose a old house, so there'd be a lot of wood, and made sure there were things she could use.
Yeah, but all of that stuff would be pretty useless to an average girl. I'm bigger than Buffy is, and I don't think I'd be able to break a wooden chair or a piece of staircase to make a rudimentary stake. I wouldn't even want to be that close to a vampire as big and strong as Kralik was with just a stake anyway. I'd prefer as minimal contact as possible. Fire is good, but it is in a fireplace--how the hell is she supposed to get it on him? A squirt can of gas and matches would be better.
Yeah, but all of that stuff would be pretty useless to an average girl. I'm bigger than Buffy is, and I don't think I'd be able to break a wooden chair or a piece of staircase to make a rudimentary stake. I wouldn't even want to be that close to a vampire as big and strong as Kralik was with just a stake anyway. I'd prefer as minimal contact as possible. Fire is good, but it is in a fireplace--how the hell is she supposed to get it on him? A squirt can of gas and matches would be better.
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While Buffy is small and thin, she does have her fighting skills to her advantage. Perhaps with the lost strength, her punches won't be as effective, but she can still flip and leap and do all that kickass moves.
Oct 25 2008 07:53 pm #44Scarlet Ibis
Perhaps with the lost strength, her punches won't be as effective, but she can still flip and leap and do all that kickass moves.
I don't think she can--she does none of these things in "Helpless," once she is drained of her powers. She doesn't deftly leap that fence when Kralik and that Watcher vamp is chasing her, or any kickass moves for that matter. She couldn't even move that guy's arm from Cordelia. She was utterly, well, helpless. As Buffy said, she was rescued by Cordelia, who has no fighting skills whatsoever. Cordelia was bigger than her, and at that point, more superior to her in physical combat.
I don't think she can--she does none of these things in "Helpless," once she is drained of her powers. She doesn't deftly leap that fence when Kralik and that Watcher vamp is chasing her, or any kickass moves for that matter. She couldn't even move that guy's arm from Cordelia. She was utterly, well, helpless. As Buffy said, she was rescued by Cordelia, who has no fighting skills whatsoever. Cordelia was bigger than her, and at that point, more superior to her in physical combat.
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I'm bigger than Buffy is, and I don't think I'd be able to break a wooden chair or a piece of staircase to make a rudimentary stake. I wouldn't even want to be that close to a vampire as big and strong as Kralik was with just a stake anyway.
Yeah, but no one else on the show has Buffy's abilities, and they're all shown doing similar things. I think every single girl, from Willow to Dawn (both comparably small and thin), has been shown staking a vampire at some point, so if they can do it, powerless Buffy should be able to, too. Giles breaks the staircase pretty easily - he's bigger than Buffy, but also a lot older. Old wood is a lot easier to break than new wood, anyway. Plus, even though Buffy doesn't have any supernatural abilities, she still trains pretty extensively, so she should have reasonably developed strength and muscles naturally (even if SMG's arms look like sticks).
But I think the whole point of the test is that the Slayer shouldn't rely on her supernatural powers alone, so they're not really expecting her to do what she usually does, just without superpowers. They're expecting her to do something that takes cunning and creativity. I don't know exactly what they expected, but I think it was meant to be something along the lines of the holy water trick. It's hard to speculate without a list of every single thing in the house that she could've used. I made a list of things that are mentioned in the script, but I'm sure there's more in cabinets or rooms she didn't check.
Fire is good, but it is in a fireplace--how the hell is she supposed to get it on him?
She could set something on fire and throw it at him. Curtains, blanket, something with bulk, hold one end, light the other on fire and swing it at him.
Yeah, but no one else on the show has Buffy's abilities, and they're all shown doing similar things. I think every single girl, from Willow to Dawn (both comparably small and thin), has been shown staking a vampire at some point, so if they can do it, powerless Buffy should be able to, too. Giles breaks the staircase pretty easily - he's bigger than Buffy, but also a lot older. Old wood is a lot easier to break than new wood, anyway. Plus, even though Buffy doesn't have any supernatural abilities, she still trains pretty extensively, so she should have reasonably developed strength and muscles naturally (even if SMG's arms look like sticks).
But I think the whole point of the test is that the Slayer shouldn't rely on her supernatural powers alone, so they're not really expecting her to do what she usually does, just without superpowers. They're expecting her to do something that takes cunning and creativity. I don't know exactly what they expected, but I think it was meant to be something along the lines of the holy water trick. It's hard to speculate without a list of every single thing in the house that she could've used. I made a list of things that are mentioned in the script, but I'm sure there's more in cabinets or rooms she didn't check.
Fire is good, but it is in a fireplace--how the hell is she supposed to get it on him?
She could set something on fire and throw it at him. Curtains, blanket, something with bulk, hold one end, light the other on fire and swing it at him.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Yeah, but no one else on the show has Buffy's abilities, and they're all shown doing similar things. I think every single girl, from Willow to Dawn (both comparably small and thin), has been shown staking a vampire at some point, so if they can do it, powerless Buffy should be able to, too. Giles breaks the staircase pretty easily - he's bigger than Buffy, but also a lot older. Old wood is a lot easier to break than new wood, anyway. Plus, even though Buffy doesn't have any supernatural abilities, she still trains pretty extensively, so she should have reasonably developed strength and muscles naturally
That's my point, but you said it better than I did. :) Almost all her friends, even the powerless incompetent of them, were able to stake a vampire in some point in the show and Buffy has the advantage of being trained above them all, so it's not impossible that she can fight and also use cleverness to win the test. Let's not forget that muscles and physical strength weren't always what got the Scoobies this far and alive.
That's my point, but you said it better than I did. :) Almost all her friends, even the powerless incompetent of them, were able to stake a vampire in some point in the show and Buffy has the advantage of being trained above them all, so it's not impossible that she can fight and also use cleverness to win the test. Let's not forget that muscles and physical strength weren't always what got the Scoobies this far and alive.
Oct 26 2008 04:07 pm #47Scarlet Ibis
Yeah, but no one else on the show has Buffy's abilities, and they're all shown doing similar things. I think every single girl, from Willow to Dawn (both comparably small and thin), has been shown staking a vampire at some point, so if they can do it, powerless Buffy should be able to, too. Giles breaks the staircase pretty easily - he's bigger than Buffy, but also a lot older. Old wood is a lot easier to break than new wood, anyway. Plus, even though Buffy doesn't have any supernatural abilities, she still trains pretty extensively, so she should have reasonably developed strength and muscles naturally
True, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Buffy is still the smallest, and has a disability from the fact that she did rely so heavily on just her strength (at that point). The Scoobies never had super strength, and therefore had to work harder at doing what they do. The opening of season three showed that it took four of them just to take down one vampire (who still gets away). The first vampire Dawn stakes was through trickery, and having nothing to do with cunning, strength or lack thereof, or some skill--she pretended as if she was going to kiss him, and luckily had an arrow that was not on her person, but one of Spike's strays. Furthermore, he was not even a fraction of Kralik's age or size.
When Buffy is in that house, we do not see her break any of that old wood to use as a stake once she loses her bag of supplies--we see her do nothing extraordinary while she is powerless. We see her do nothing that is even on the level of the Scoobies in fact. After all, that was the point of the episode.
True, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Buffy is still the smallest, and has a disability from the fact that she did rely so heavily on just her strength (at that point). The Scoobies never had super strength, and therefore had to work harder at doing what they do. The opening of season three showed that it took four of them just to take down one vampire (who still gets away). The first vampire Dawn stakes was through trickery, and having nothing to do with cunning, strength or lack thereof, or some skill--she pretended as if she was going to kiss him, and luckily had an arrow that was not on her person, but one of Spike's strays. Furthermore, he was not even a fraction of Kralik's age or size.
When Buffy is in that house, we do not see her break any of that old wood to use as a stake once she loses her bag of supplies--we see her do nothing extraordinary while she is powerless. We see her do nothing that is even on the level of the Scoobies in fact. After all, that was the point of the episode.
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The opening of season three showed that it took four of them just to take down one vampire (who still gets away).
Yeah, and in "Bargaining" it took seven of them - including Spike, whom we know can take out vamps on his own, and the Buffybot - yet in plenty of other cases (including Giles in this very episode), we see Scoobies stake vampires all by themselves. I think this is just another one of those things that varies depending on the needs of the scene.
Yeah, and in "Bargaining" it took seven of them - including Spike, whom we know can take out vamps on his own, and the Buffybot - yet in plenty of other cases (including Giles in this very episode), we see Scoobies stake vampires all by themselves. I think this is just another one of those things that varies depending on the needs of the scene.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 28 2008 02:20 am #49Spikez_tart
Can't you look at the situation from his point of view? - No sympathy for Giles here. He gets worse and worse - for all his fine feelings, he never takes Buffy's opinions seriously, he betrays her here during the Cruciamentum which he recognizes is pointless, he's pretty spineless in Checkpoint when Travers and the Council of Wankers shows up, he wants to kill Dawn without even trying to save her, he kills Ben (who is a human and probably has it coming, but still), he abandons Buffy in S6 and he tries to kill Spike in S7, knowing that Buffy is attached to him and depending on him. Also, he has sex with Buffy's mother which is just so wrong.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 28 2008 02:30 am #50Scarlet Ibis
Also, he has sex with Buffy's mother which is just so wrong. Cut him some slack--he was under magical influences :P And besides, Joyce consented.
Season seven, I'll admit Giles was sniffing glue or something, but I don't have a problem with him. Even when he messed up, he was just trying to do the right thing. If he was truly doing the "right thing," what he was taught to do, he never would have spilled the beans about the Cruciamentum test, and in "Checkpoint," well, if he was really going to be deported, he knew he'd be of no use to Buffy on the other side of the pond during that whole ordeal, and he was only saying to kill Dawn (or let her die) if that was the last option. If he didn't get rid of Ben, then he would have let Glory survive by default. That was the only chance they had of taking her out--casualty of war.
Okay, that was very left field--I've never heard a Giles hater before. Huh :P
Season seven, I'll admit Giles was sniffing glue or something, but I don't have a problem with him. Even when he messed up, he was just trying to do the right thing. If he was truly doing the "right thing," what he was taught to do, he never would have spilled the beans about the Cruciamentum test, and in "Checkpoint," well, if he was really going to be deported, he knew he'd be of no use to Buffy on the other side of the pond during that whole ordeal, and he was only saying to kill Dawn (or let her die) if that was the last option. If he didn't get rid of Ben, then he would have let Glory survive by default. That was the only chance they had of taking her out--casualty of war.
Okay, that was very left field--I've never heard a Giles hater before. Huh :P
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Okay, that was very left field--I've never heard a Giles hater before. Huh :P
I know some of them, but you're right. Giles-haters are a few in numbers. ;)
for all his fine feelings, he never takes Buffy's opinions seriously, he betrays her here during the Cruciamentum which he recognizes is pointless, he's pretty spineless in Checkpoint when Travers and the Council of Wankers shows up, he wants to kill Dawn without even trying to save her, he kills Ben (who is a human and probably has it coming, but still), he abandons Buffy in S6 and he tries to kill Spike in S7, knowing that Buffy is attached to him and depending on him. Also, he has sex with Buffy's mother which is just so wrong.
To be honest, I think all of these actions, while some are wrong, can be easily justified. In this episode, Giles was still a machine that moves according to the council's demands, this episode is the breaking point where Giles realizes he's better off without the council and that he does have parental feelings toward Buffy. Right after that, you'll notice how the council's orders don't fly with him anymore especially if they meant harm on Buffy. Notice in Checkpoint how he deliberately disobeys the council's rules and starts translating the Japanese orders for Buffy so she would pass.
As for killing Dawn, Giles is the man that sees the big picture, he knows that the only way the world will survive is by killing Dawn, killing Ben was just the second best and of all the Scoobies he's the only one that can step into that gray area and get the job done for the safety of humanity. Leaving Buffy was him trying to teach her to take care of the real world's responsibilities without dropping them on her mother or Giles' shoulders. While I don't agree with his decision to leave at this point of Buffy's life, I can still see his reasons for doing so.
As for Lies My Parents Told Me, Giles has a point. Spike was still under The First's control and The First had stated that he had bigger plans for Spike in the future. Look at Giles' reaction when Andrew says that in First Date, he appeared thoughtful. Giles wanted Spike chained to protect them until they could solve his trigger. Because Buffy couldn't see clearly when it came to Spike (her feelings for him blinding her judgment) she refused keeping Spike chained, which was irresponsible on her behalf.
I actually support Giles on this one. Spike should have been chained until they were able to free him from The First's control.
Problem is Wood noticed that Giles is disappointed with Buffy because she's not looking at the big picture and manipulated Giles to have his revenge. He told Giles that Buffy won't be listening to him and sooner or later Spike will be controlled by The First just like The First had promised and kill them all. Giles saw no other solution than to agree to kill Spike.
While I don't agree with Giles going behind Buffy's back like that, or killing Spike, I can still see where he's coming from.
Oct 31 2008 11:06 pm #52Spikez_tart
Cut him some slack--he was under magical influences 
And besides, Joyce consented. - No no, no logic here. :) I don't consider myself a Giles hater, maybe a Giles neutral. He can just be so spineless sometimes. Also, he didn't take Buffy to the ice skating show even though she practically cried.
Giles is the man that sees the big picture, he knows that the only way the world will survive - which easily slides into the means justify the ends with him. I don't blame him for killing Ben, exactly. He had to, that seems clear, still it's in his character to do something like that and apparently have no remorse. As Tara, even with her brain wiped, said, "You're a killer."
If Giles thinks Buffy needs to stand on her own, all he has to do is quit bailing her out. On the other hand, he owes her. Giles and his Council buddies ruined her life and got her killed; she was just a little teenage bimbo minding her own business and bam! she's got the weight of the world on her shoulders. A responsible parent helps their child grow up, he doesn't throw her in the deep end and she if she'll drown.
Giles has a point. Spike was still under The First's control - which doesn't give him squat. Buffy knows this and because Spike is still of interest to the First, then he must be important. Perhaps the First is taunting Buffy in an effort to get her to kill Spike? As far as the chains, Buffy is right there; she can control Spike if necessary. Well, okay, Andrew did get bit that one time, but hey weren't you rooting for Spike there?
He has no right to go behind Buffy's back. She's the "general", it's her butt on the line every night, so it should be her call. What's the worst that can happen? Spike kills and turns some more vampires. Bad, yes, but when they're faced with about 100,000 vampires? (And, where did they all come from anyway - well that's a rant for another day.)
And besides, Joyce consented. - No no, no logic here. :) I don't consider myself a Giles hater, maybe a Giles neutral. He can just be so spineless sometimes. Also, he didn't take Buffy to the ice skating show even though she practically cried. Giles is the man that sees the big picture, he knows that the only way the world will survive - which easily slides into the means justify the ends with him. I don't blame him for killing Ben, exactly. He had to, that seems clear, still it's in his character to do something like that and apparently have no remorse. As Tara, even with her brain wiped, said, "You're a killer."
If Giles thinks Buffy needs to stand on her own, all he has to do is quit bailing her out. On the other hand, he owes her. Giles and his Council buddies ruined her life and got her killed; she was just a little teenage bimbo minding her own business and bam! she's got the weight of the world on her shoulders. A responsible parent helps their child grow up, he doesn't throw her in the deep end and she if she'll drown.
Giles has a point. Spike was still under The First's control - which doesn't give him squat. Buffy knows this and because Spike is still of interest to the First, then he must be important. Perhaps the First is taunting Buffy in an effort to get her to kill Spike? As far as the chains, Buffy is right there; she can control Spike if necessary. Well, okay, Andrew did get bit that one time, but hey weren't you rooting for Spike there?
He has no right to go behind Buffy's back. She's the "general", it's her butt on the line every night, so it should be her call. What's the worst that can happen? Spike kills and turns some more vampires. Bad, yes, but when they're faced with about 100,000 vampires? (And, where did they all come from anyway - well that's a rant for another day.)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 01 2008 12:50 am #53Scarlet Ibis
If Giles thinks Buffy needs to stand on her own, all he has to do is quit bailing her out. He has no right to go behind Buffy's back.
You know, bailing her out is pretty much anti Giles (from s6 anyway). So him trying to go behind Buffy's back and have Spike killed really made no sense, when you think of it that way.
He had to, that seems clear, still it's in his character to do something like that and apparently have no remorse.
Well, that's not necessarily true. When was there time for him to show any remorse? But then again, if you want to be technical, Ben wasn't fully human, so with Giles' reasoning, what's the point of being upset about it? Ben wasn't fully human (you can't share half your body with a god from Hell and be called human--sorry), and taking Glory out was a huge service to the world. Sure, Buffy kicked her ass, but she would have recovered. Buffy would have still been dead, and you can't tell me that Glory wouldn't have tried to go home again by finding some other way. I personally wouldn't lose any sleep over that myself. It had to be done--there were no ifs ands or buts about it.
You know, bailing her out is pretty much anti Giles (from s6 anyway). So him trying to go behind Buffy's back and have Spike killed really made no sense, when you think of it that way.
He had to, that seems clear, still it's in his character to do something like that and apparently have no remorse.
Well, that's not necessarily true. When was there time for him to show any remorse? But then again, if you want to be technical, Ben wasn't fully human, so with Giles' reasoning, what's the point of being upset about it? Ben wasn't fully human (you can't share half your body with a god from Hell and be called human--sorry), and taking Glory out was a huge service to the world. Sure, Buffy kicked her ass, but she would have recovered. Buffy would have still been dead, and you can't tell me that Glory wouldn't have tried to go home again by finding some other way. I personally wouldn't lose any sleep over that myself. It had to be done--there were no ifs ands or buts about it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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which easily slides into the means justify the ends with him. I don't blame him for killing Ben, exactly. He had to, that seems clear, still it's in his character to do something like that and apparently have no remorse. As Tara, even with her brain wiped, said, "You're a killer."
You said it. It's part of his character, it what makes him Giles, making the hard choices and doing them himself for the safety of the world. While Giles is a killer, he doesn't just kill for the sake of the kill. He kills because it's the right thing to do. Do you know that they had originally planned to have Xander in Ben's place? And have Giles kill him for the greater good? Because S5 was supposed to be the last season. It doesn't matter who's the person, Giles will kill you if it meant saving the world.
Giles has a point. Spike was still under The First's control - which doesn't give him squat.
Why? Everybody's opinion is as valued as the other. Spike is obviously still a danger as long as he's under The First's control. The only thing Giles asked was to have him chained, nothing wrong with that.
He has no right to go behind Buffy's back.
I agree with you on this one.
She's the "general", it's her butt on the line every night, so it should be her call.
Actually, everybody's butt is on the line in S7. The potentials, Willow, Faith and about everybody who supports Buffy. So I think they should also have a say in the matter.
What's the worst that can happen?
What's the worst that can happen if Spike was kept chained? I don't get why it's so wrong to have Spike chained and it's okay for him to be free so The First can use him to kill more potentials, Buffy and her friends as well.
Nov 01 2008 04:42 pm #55Scarlet Ibis
I don't get why it's so wrong to have Spike chained and it's okay for him to be free so The First can use him to kill more potentials, Buffy and her friends as wel
Well except the fact that the First never actually had Spike kill a potential or any of Buffy's friends. They were all just random people who had nothing to do with Buffy, except Holden but only because they went to the same school. She didn't even remember him.
Well except the fact that the First never actually had Spike kill a potential or any of Buffy's friends. They were all just random people who had nothing to do with Buffy, except Holden but only because they went to the same school. She didn't even remember him.
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Well except the fact that the First never actually had Spike kill a potential or any of Buffy's friends.
Just because The First didn't do it yet, doesn't mean it won't in the future. It did promise to use Spike in the future. Wasn't its plan killing all the potentials, anyway? Using Spike to do that is perfect since he's living with them. I'm not surprised Giles isn't comfortable with having him unchained while he's still triggered.
Just because The First didn't do it yet, doesn't mean it won't in the future. It did promise to use Spike in the future. Wasn't its plan killing all the potentials, anyway? Using Spike to do that is perfect since he's living with them. I'm not surprised Giles isn't comfortable with having him unchained while he's still triggered.
Nov 01 2008 09:25 pm #57Scarlet Ibis
Just because The First didn't do it yet, doesn't mean it won't in the future. It did promise to use Spike in the future. Wasn't its plan killing all the potentials, anyway?
Yeah, but the fact of the matter is it didn't. All that time, it had it's blind minions running around killing potentials. Spike was living at one of Buffy's friends homes while he was under its control without Spike's knowledge--could have killed one there. Or a potential--there was one living in Sunnydale. And then when Spike is finally living in the bosom of slayer central, what does the First do? Have him try to kill Andrew, one of the least important people. He could have had Spike lure Buffy close enough, and had him snap her neck or something, and bam, where would the potentials be then? The First must have just been really lame (or stupid) when it came to planning I guess.
Yeah, but the fact of the matter is it didn't. All that time, it had it's blind minions running around killing potentials. Spike was living at one of Buffy's friends homes while he was under its control without Spike's knowledge--could have killed one there. Or a potential--there was one living in Sunnydale. And then when Spike is finally living in the bosom of slayer central, what does the First do? Have him try to kill Andrew, one of the least important people. He could have had Spike lure Buffy close enough, and had him snap her neck or something, and bam, where would the potentials be then? The First must have just been really lame (or stupid) when it came to planning I guess.
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Yeah, but the fact of the matter is it didn't.
Yes, but do the characters know that? No. They know nothing. That's why they had to think of all the possibilities.
Yes, but do the characters know that? No. They know nothing. That's why they had to think of all the possibilities.
ROBIN
Yeah, if that trigger's still working, then the First must be waiting for just the right time to use it against us.
GILES
It does seem doubtful the First simply forgot it had such a powerful weapon.
I wish I was able to reassure Giles that The First is one lame big bad who doesn't know how to use its gift right. Seriously, I can think of many situations in which The First can break the gang apart without even brining Tara or Jesse or Angel or Jenny.
Nov 02 2008 02:07 pm #59Scarlet Ibis
Yes, but do the characters know that? No. They know nothing. That's why they had to think of all the possibilities.
But isn't it logical to deduce that if the First had had Spike do nothing in all that time (since the basement incident with Buffy, seeing that Buffy was stronger than its hold over Spike in Spike's head), then it would probably leave him alone? Spike could have killed Buffy and burned the house down several times over, and nothing happens. They (Robin and Giles) both jumped the gun because they both had ulterior motives. Robin had a vendetta, and Giles wanted Buffy to focus more (though as CM pointed out somewhere, I don't see how Spike's death would have caused her to focus better). I mean, that's what they usually do--wait to the wire before they take any real action. Against the Master, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam (to an extent) and Glory. They wait, wait, wait a whole slew of time before they start their plan of taking down The Big Bad, which is (again) at the very last minute. So what's the rush on Spike? Gotta have a reason...
But isn't it logical to deduce that if the First had had Spike do nothing in all that time (since the basement incident with Buffy, seeing that Buffy was stronger than its hold over Spike in Spike's head), then it would probably leave him alone? Spike could have killed Buffy and burned the house down several times over, and nothing happens. They (Robin and Giles) both jumped the gun because they both had ulterior motives. Robin had a vendetta, and Giles wanted Buffy to focus more (though as CM pointed out somewhere, I don't see how Spike's death would have caused her to focus better). I mean, that's what they usually do--wait to the wire before they take any real action. Against the Master, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam (to an extent) and Glory. They wait, wait, wait a whole slew of time before they start their plan of taking down The Big Bad, which is (again) at the very last minute. So what's the rush on Spike? Gotta have a reason...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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and Giles wanted Buffy to focus more (though as CM pointed out somewhere, I don't see how Spike's death would have caused her to focus better).
Which, IMO, wasn't why Giles wanted Spike to be killed. I think if they had found a cure to Spike's situation, Giles wouldn't have helped Wood.
But isn't it logical to deduce that if the First had had Spike do nothing in all that time (since the basement incident with Buffy, seeing that Buffy was stronger than its hold over Spike in Spike's head), then it would probably leave him alone?
The First had said to Andrew that it had plans for Spike, it wasn't his time yet. Notice how Giles frowned at that piece of information in First Date. That's the reason Giles so uneasy about Spike, IMO.
Which, IMO, wasn't why Giles wanted Spike to be killed. I think if they had found a cure to Spike's situation, Giles wouldn't have helped Wood.
But isn't it logical to deduce that if the First had had Spike do nothing in all that time (since the basement incident with Buffy, seeing that Buffy was stronger than its hold over Spike in Spike's head), then it would probably leave him alone?
The First had said to Andrew that it had plans for Spike, it wasn't his time yet. Notice how Giles frowned at that piece of information in First Date. That's the reason Giles so uneasy about Spike, IMO.
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