BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Listening to Fear: Episode Discussion

Oct 10 2008 04:04 pm   #1sosa lola

- First scene is filled with family cuteness between Buffy, Dawn and Joyce. Joyce had come a long way into her supportive role of Buffy's slaying activities. It must have been so hard on her. Buffy asked Riley and the gang to take over patrolling, nice to see that she's not bearing all the burden on her shoulders and is willing to let the others help.

- I wonder where Giles' fighting skills had gone to? Even Xander isn't this bad at fighting (remembers how he knocked the coach down and took his gun in Go Fish). Seems that Giles and Xander are only skilled at fighting when the plot needs it, and are less skilled at fighting when the writers want some comedy. It's nice to see Willow gloat about staking two vampires though, she's so cute! :D

- Riley ditched the gang and Xander is pissed. He had been noticing Riley's weird behavior for awhile now and his lecture in the earlier episode didn't help matters. Perhaps if Xander talked to Buffy about it at this point, things would have turned out differently between Buffy and Riley. I guess he didn't want to bother her with Riley's insecurities while she was busy taking care of her mother. Giles and Willow are oblivious to Riley's change in behavior.

- Aww, Santa Willow is very sweet.

- It seems Buffy loves yo-yos. Didn't she used to play with one in the graveyard in S2?

- I love how Willow brings the funny, positive girl in Tara. If I wasn't that comfortable with my partner, I wouldn't admit having funny names for stars. Willow is very good for Tara. She wouldn't have become this confident without Willow's love and appreciation.

- I kinda understand how Joyce feels, staying at hospitals can get to you, especially when you're waiting for your surgery. Poor Dawn, though. It sucks being in a room where your mother loses her calmness and starts to freak.

- Didn't Dawn go out to get something from the machine? Why is she reading outside right after that scene with her mom, Buffy and the doctor? Unless sometime had passed with Buffy checking for needed medications and instructions.

- It's really nice to see Xander upset with Riley and holds him some of the blame for being an idiot. Some fans makes it seem as Xander is too pro-Riley, which he isn't. Yeah, he considers him a friend and thinks he's the best guy for Buffy, but when Xander's friends screw up, he calls them on it.

- WILLOW: We can't call Buffy. (beat) I wanna call Buffy!

This is a main theme between Buffy and her friends. The conflict between their desperate need for Buffy to be around when danger occurs and knowing that Buffy has so much real life drama that they have to leave her out of it. In this episode, they leave Buffy to take care of her mother and they handle the slaying by themselves, proving why Buffy had lasted this long without dying. ;)

- Riley doesn't join the others for research. Seems he made his decision where his priorities lie. He's done with the Scoobies and he wants back into the government. It's very obvious seeing how he almost said "Agent Finn" and swiftly replaced it with "Riley Finn." After all, who wants to be the sidekick over being the hero? Who wants a boring research session over an adventure? Not someone who was the lead of a group of soldiers. Again, only Xander calls Riley on it because he's the only one who noticed how detached Riley had gotten. "Yeah, don't do anything hunterly."

- My heart breaks for Buffy and Dawn. Joyce's condition is getting worse and there's nothing they can do about it. Just turn off the lights.

- GRAHAM: You found a stiff in the woods and called us in? Don't you usually call your girlfriend for this kind of thing?

Does that mean this is the first time Riley contacts with the government when things go dicey?

- RILEY: I wouldn't touch that stuff in his mouth if I were you.
ELLIS: Toxic?
RILEY: No, just messy

Seems that the Scoobies' sense of humor did rub off on Riley after all. :D

- WILLOW: We should call Buffy. E-except we can't call Buffy. (looks up at Giles) Can we?

Again with needing Buffy, but knowing that they shouldn't call her.

- RILEY: It's okay. Joyce was released earlier today. That intern, um, Ben, told me. They're safe at home.

Good to know that Riley still asks about Joyce and Buffy. In the middle of all the craziness, he doesn't forget them.

- Finally, Spike appears! I was afraid he'd never make a show in this episode. His weird stalker stealing obsession with Buffy helped her in this episode. ;)

- Love Spike throwing the knife and Buffy catching it. They make quite a team. And of course, love Buffy accepting Spike's hand when he helps her up. :happy:

- Okay, Riley looking at Buffy and Spike holding hands? Not so good. I wonder why he never suspected they have a thing. With Spike saying that Buffy bought him dinner and Buffy's weak spot for vampires (Angel and Dracula), and now the hand holding, I'd have suspected something, especially if I had an inferiority when it comes to Buffy.

- I didn't like Joyce's realization to Dawn's keyness. Not the realization itself but how she reacts to it. You'd think she's gonna go through a fit or something. I don't know, her reaction lacked the emotion of a mother. Her reaction to Buffy being a slayer felt more real and human than hers to Dawn's keyness.
 

Oct 10 2008 05:57 pm   #2Guest
I don't think Riley felt inferior and jealous that Buffy would find someone else; I think he was upset that she was always holding herself back from everyone and especially him when she should be totally vulnerable in front of him! he thinks. Notice how Riley isn't at all disturbed about Ben at the hospital who Buffy has talked to and is interested in her later, keeping tabs on Buffy.

I also noticed how Spike offered a hand to Buffy and she accepted it. If Spike hadn't built that creepy shrine of Buffy's things and fed with Dru, I think Buffy wouldn't have reacted so strongly against him when she found out he liked her. The signs were pretty obvious for a while but she just wouldn't see them. But after Buffy finds out Spike likes her, including season six, how many times does she get annoyed or ignores Spike offering his hand to help her up like that? I think she was starting to count on him even if she didn't realize it.   Plus, OUCH for Riley when he goes to her, asks if she's okay, and she immediately rushes away to check on her family.
Oct 10 2008 06:12 pm   #3Guest

Xander telling Buffy anything Riley has said or implied breaks the Bro Code. He's not going to say anything to her unless Riley does something to get himself in trouble, and even then, Xander will probably go handle it himself unless he needs the help.

Riley contacting the military was an isolated incident, because this thing came from a meteor. Between that, and Buffy having enough on her plate, he made the call. The gov't would notice a meteor falling to Earth, anyway...

Very scary season for Dawn.

CM

Oct 10 2008 07:14 pm   #4sosa lola

I think he was upset that she was always holding herself back from everyone and especially him when she should be totally vulnerable in front of him! he thinks.

I agree. I guess he wanted to be the first person she thinks about when she's in a sad situation, the first person she calls. Reminds me of his "instead of you taking care of me, why don't we take care of each other?" He doesn't mind Buffy taking care of him, but he wants to take care of her as well.

If Spike hadn't built that creepy shrine of Buffy's things and fed with Dru, I think Buffy wouldn't have reacted so strongly against him when she found out he liked her.

I agree. Other than the fact that Spike tried to kill her more than once in the past, Spike's disturbing ways of showing Buffy his love must have rubbed Buffy the wrong way. Stealing her things, tying her and Dru together and building a Buffybot all made Spike look bad. No wonder it'll take Buffy a longer time to like him back.

Xander telling Buffy anything Riley has said or implied breaks the Bro Code.

That's interesting. Riley is obviously Xander's only buddy at the moment, that's probably why Xander was trying to help in a not-so-obvious way. Like telling Buffy the story about his friend who loves a girl but thinks she doesn't love him back and showing his disapproval of Riley's solo adventures, but not really stepping in and telling them both that they should work on their failing relationship.

Oct 10 2008 07:29 pm   #5Eowyn315
RILEY: It's okay. Joyce was released earlier today. That intern, um, Ben, told me. They're safe at home.
Good to know that Riley still asks about Joyce and Buffy. In the middle of all the craziness, he doesn't forget them.

Hmm... yes, good that Riley's still concerned about them, but doesn't it seem strange once again that Riley had to find out from a third party what was going on with Joyce? Shouldn't Buffy have called him (or any of her friends, for that matter) to let him know they were bringing Joyce home? At the very least, if they HAD decided they needed to call Buffy, they'd need to know where to find her.

Xander telling Buffy anything Riley has said or implied breaks the Bro Code.
First of all: heh. But really, should Xander feel that level of loyalty to Riley? It's not like they're really friends outside of the group - we don't ever see them doing guy things together, and Riley wouldn't spend time with him at all if it weren't for Buffy. Plus, gender aside, Xander's been friends with Buffy a lot longer than he's known Riley, so I would think his first loyalty would be to Buffy.

Other than the fact that Spike tried to kill her more than once in the past, Spike's disturbing ways of showing Buffy his love must have rubbed Buffy the wrong way. Stealing her things, tying her and Dru together and building a Buffybot all made Spike look bad.
But the weird part is that Buffy asked Willow for the deinvite spell before most of those things even happened. She knew he was hanging around the house a lot, and she probably suspected he was stealing things, but she'd already asked Willow to do the spell before she found the shrine and before she was tied up, and way before the Buffybot. So it seems like just the mere thought of Spike being in love with her is enough to creep her out, even without most of the disturbing behavior he exhibits later.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 10 2008 08:01 pm   #6sosa lola

Shouldn't Buffy have called him (or any of her friends, for that matter) to let him know they were bringing Joyce home?

That's a good question. In this episode, Buffy is too concerned with her mother's condition to contact anyone or care about slayer stuff. I bet she was convincing herself that if something was wrong, they'd call her, so she won't check on them, she should focus on no one but her mother. But I see your point and I agree with it.

It's not like they're really friends outside of the group - we don't ever see them doing guy things together, and Riley wouldn't spend time with him at all if it weren't for Buffy.

I do believe Xander has some affection for Riley as in he likes him as a boyfriend for Buffy and a guy-friend to have around. In the later seasons, we rarely see characters doing friendship things, Xander is usually with Anya and Willow is usually with Tara. I think their activities are mostly a group thing. (Xander does invite Buffy and Riley to his basement for a movie night.) The only out-of-romantic-relationship interactions we see lately are Buffy's with her mother, sister and watcher. I think Xander wants Riley's friendship and I think Riley welcomes that. Riley wouldn't have told Xander something so huge like him loving Buffy and her not loving him if he didn't value Xander's friendship. They wouldn't have that brotherly wrestle in Family as well as Riley mocking Xander so easily like a buddy does with another buddy if they weren't friends.

But the weird part is that Buffy asked Willow for the deinvite spell before most of those things even happened.

It's not about the deinvite spell, it's about accepting Spike as someone more than an annoying, only-useful-for-info-and-extra-muscle, soulless vamp. If Spike had been more like... Angel or Ben or Riley. Sweet and polite and less snarky and rude, he would have probably easily blended in. Spike's attitude as well as his creepy way of showing affection, not to mention asking for money and blood in exchange for help, and not regretting his previous attempts to kill the Scoobies and plus the no-soul having, all stood in Spike's way of being a trusted, wanted ally.

Spike does help the Scoobies and they do repay him for it, by allowing him to live and giving him a free pass for his misdeeds (betraying them with Adam and his attempt to get the chip out in OoMM) and so far that's it. Spike isn't interested yet to be friends with Dawn or to get to know Buffy's friends. He's only interested in Buffy herself. 
 

Oct 10 2008 10:28 pm   #7nmcil

Does anyone else feel like the guard is the voice of what is coming for Buffy and Riley in "Into The Woods" - especially as this meteor is what finally brings Riley back into direct contact with The Initiative.  We already know that he wants to call himself by his previous title, Agent Finn.  Plus this theme of what is his mission now - being the Slayer's true love and boy friend has already been asked by his Initiative friend.


(the meteor landing site. Something emerges from it. We see the guard wandering alone at night, talking to himself)

GUARD: I know what I said. I said-I said I won't go away far. A person needs to respect a man. And then it says ... that... the facts says... he's got to go take a walk and get some fresh air and find some fresh spaces. ...and some fresh space! And needs to walk to get ... to get where he's going.

(Suddenly something drops down from the tree onto his back. It's a creature with a wrinkly gray face, cloven hooves, and a carapace like a cockroach's. The guard yells and falls to the ground. Blackout. )

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 11 2008 12:34 am   #8Scarlet Ibis
That's a good question. In this episode, Buffy is too concerned with her mother's condition to contact anyone or care about slayer stuff. I bet she was convincing herself that if something was wrong, they'd call her, so she won't check on them, she should focus on no one but her mother. But I see your point and I agree with it.
I think this is one of the few times Buffy actually gets a pass--this is the first time ever she has to deal with a situation she literally can't fight or have her friends help her with.  Her mother is not only ill, she's slightly insane at random intervals.  Buffy is too busy trying to hold herself together to worry about her friends on her boyfriend. Her bouts of crying probably outweighed the ones that Angel ever gave her in the past.

It's not about the deinvite spell, it's about accepting Spike as someone more than an annoying, only-useful-for-info-and-extra-muscle, soulless vamp. If Spike had been more like... Angel or Ben or Riley. Sweet and polite and less snarky and rude, he would have probably easily blended in. Spike's attitude as well as his creepy way of showing affection, not to mention asking for money and blood in exchange for help, and not regretting his previous attempts to kill the Scoobies and plus the no-soul having, all stood in Spike's way of being a trusted, wanted ally.
I 100% disagree.  She did accept him as more than that (pre-knowledge of him being in love with her, of course).  Spike was usually the first person she ran to in season five, and again in season six.  The fact that Spike wasn't like Angel (who thought she was fragile) or Ben (who didn't know her) or Riley (who thought her too strong and independent), he accepted her for who she was.  She confessed to Spike first about what was going on with her mom, instead of calling her boyfriend and seeking comfort of some kind from him.  She was able to allow herself to be weak in front of Spike, which is what she never did with Riley.  In fact, she trusted Spike--to not only help her, but to not betray her.  In "Into the Woods," she willingly follows him in the middle of night, simply because "there's something" she needed to see.  If she truly believed Spike to be that shifty and untrustworthy, she never would have followed him--could have been an elaborate trap.  Just because he had a chip doesn't mean he couldn't have someone else do his dirty work for him, or send someone to her house and do something to her family.  Also, I think he stopped accepting money from her around "Checkpoint."  I seriously doubt he took any money from her after she says to him "You're the only one who can protect them."  Probably before that, even.

And the way he showed his affection wasn't creepy until she rejected him--all he did was change his attire, tried to verbally express his feelings, and held open a door for her.  How exactly is that creepy?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 11 2008 05:53 am   #9Guest
But really, should Xander feel that level of loyalty to Riley?

It is a guy thing. They won't betray stuff said to them even when they hardly know the guy, as long as they still like the guy. It's just not cool to give info to the "other side". As long as Buffy wasn't going to get physically hurt by anything Xander knew her boyfriend was doing, then Xander would let them work out their relationship issues on their own. Guys don't ask for details and don't butt in to other people's problems.  A universal quote is "If I needed to know more, he would have told me. Otherwise, unless he asks for my advice, I assume he has the situation in hand."

CM
Oct 11 2008 12:19 pm   #10sosa lola

Scarlet, I was talking in general. Why it took Buffy and her friends such a long time to accept Spike when they easily and quickly accepted Angel and the others? Other than the fact that Spike tried to kill them in the past, he showed no interest in them in S4, except for asking for money and blood, as well as help. It was the same thing in early S5. Compare how Spike talks to the Scoobies with the way Riley used to when they first met him, he was very sweet to Willow and that helped him win her over. He was polite and respectful to Giles and Xander. Angel didn't talk to them much but he never badmouthed them. So it was easier to accept them. Spike, on the other hand, mocked the Scoobies, threatened to kill them when the chip stopped working and made it so clear that he only helped in exchange of money. That's not a person you'd like to hang out with.

When Spike realized he has feelings for Buffy, he was expressing it the wrong way. Stalking, stealing Buffy's stuff, trying to get her boyfriend jealous whenever he ran into him. I can see how hard it is for a vampire to woe a human woman after centuries of a twisted relationship with a vampire, especially the slayer, and I actually enjoy Spike's disturbing ways of showing his crush. I seriously love how the writers handled his blossoming feelings for Buffy. But I also understand why it took Buffy so long to consider him more than just an info machine.
 

Oct 11 2008 05:52 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis
Technically, it didn't take them that long to accept Spike, considering he lived with Giles and Xander.  I don't care how good of a person you are--if you really don't like somebody, you're not going to let them live with you and buy them food.  And if you live with them, you're more than just hanging out--they're there, all the time.  Also, show of hands as to how many think that Giles or Xander would let a chipped Angelus stay with them?

Being sweet and polite is irrelevant--Spike won over Willow anyway.  The thing of it is, they expect certain behavior from Riley, certain behavior from Spike, and certain behavior from Angel.  All different, but if Spike were to suddenly act like Riley (or Angel), everyone would think some evil spell was cast on them, or they had a lobotomy.

Buffy didn't know about the stalking, or stealing her stuff.  She knew he was stealing some stuff from the basement ("junk" as Spike had said), and what did she do? Rolled her eyes in annoyance, expecting as much behavior from him, but not really caring.  When he first expressed his feelings, there was nothing ooky about it--she basically freaked out for no logical reason.  Spike had done plenty of other stuff that warranted a dis-invite from her home and the homes of her friends, and she never did until he tried to tell her how he felt.  That was just plain...stupid.  And again, she did consider him more than just an "info machine" for all the reasons I already listed.  In fact, for a part of season five, she stops busting into his crypt to manhandle him, demanding information, and instead just asks for his help, telling him he was "the only one" in fact.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 11 2008 07:04 pm   #12sosa lola


Technically, it didn't take them that long to accept Spike, considering he lived with Giles and Xander.

As I remember, they held Spike as a hostage only to get info out of him that will lead them to the Initiative. It is kinda generous of the Scoobies to keep him around even after they knew he doesn't have a clue where the Initiative is. They probably couldn't let a helpless creature wandering around and getting killed, even after said creature tried to kill them on more than one occasion. When Spike decided to leave, they had no objections, which also show that Spike's stay with Giles and Xander was out of his desire to be protected and fed until he realized he could take care of himself.

Spike won over Willow anyway.

Everybody wins Willow's acceptance :D

The thing of it is, they expect certain behavior from Riley, certain behavior from Spike, and certain behavior from Angel. All different, but if Spike were to suddenly act like Riley (or Angel), everyone would think some evil spell was cast on them, or they had a lobotomy.

I think it goes to First Impression. First time they met Riley, he was this sweet guy, and he was easily accepted. They first met Angel as a quiet, kinda creepy guy, but was easily accepted because of Buffy's feelings toward him. They first met Spike as someone who wanted to kill the slayer, which was bad. He still caused them pain for more than two years and then he became chipped but still kept his rudeness and threats of murder. It doesn't surprise me that he'll take a longer time getting the Scoobies to accept him completely as a good guy and a pleasant company.

When he first expressed his feelings, there was nothing ooky about it--she basically freaked out for no logical reason.

I won't say that she freaked for no logical reason. Spike was still a soulless vampire, whose previous misdeeds still outwight his good deeds. While she appreciated Spike's help when it suited her, Buffy still is wary of him. It's all okay if Spike just stayed far and was only around when needed, but there was no way she'd want him close to her life. She doesn't think much of Spike, she just sees him as an annoyance who can help when needed. I think when he expressed his love, she was disgusted because she never saw him as a love interest. I think "grossed out" and "vomit in her mouth" were how she felt. Her mother and Willow were the ones creeped by it (which is interesting seeing as they're the most sympathetic toward Spike) and I think the de-invite spell was considered after she saw how disturbed her mom and best friend were of the whole thing.

Oct 12 2008 02:39 am   #13Spikez_tart

trying to get her boyfriend jealous whenever he ran into him. - Speaking of the Guy Code, apparently Riley never tells Buffy that he caught Spike creeping around her bedroom or that she ought to watch out for him because he's In Love.  It's Dawn that first tips Buffy off. 

When he first expressed his feelings, there was nothing ooky about it--she basically freaked out for no logical reason. - Uh - Spike goes along with Buffy's analogy of him being like a serial killer in prison - "Women marry them all the time." So yeah, having Spike love you at that point, plenty ooky.  And, he hasn't really changed that much.  He says he's willing to give up the whole evil thing, implying that he hadn't given up on it at that point and that he wouldn't if Buffy wasn't going to be his girlfriend.  He's pretended to be her friend before, then pulled some trick to get her and her friends killed. 

"You need to see this" - Spike frequently imagines that Buffy is going to kick his butt, when she never does.  She doesn't come after him for dragging her out in the middle of the night to see Riley getting a suck job from a vampire girl, which he fully expects and discusses with Xander, buys her candy and apologizes to the Buffy mannequin and yet she doesn't stake him.  She does nothing after the whole doctor thing either when he surely had it coming.  She doesn't lock him out until he says the "L" word or tries too and as Sosa pointed out that could be because her mother and Willow are freaked. 

Spike of course proves she's right to do so by chaining her up in his basement with Drusilla and nearly getting her killed.  Interesting that he chains up Buffy, but only ties up Drusilla and Harmony is forgotten altogether.  Buffy is obviously the dangerous one in his mind - the love that needs to be kept chained up.

 




 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 12 2008 12:34 pm   #14sosa lola
Speaking of the Guy Code, apparently Riley never tells Buffy that he caught Spike creeping around her bedroom or that she ought to watch out for him because he's In Love. It's Dawn that first tips Buffy off.

Hee! I love the Guy Code thing. Us women should remember it when writing about male characters :D


Interesting that he chains up Buffy, but only ties up Drusilla and Harmony is forgotten altogether.

Poor Harmony. LOL. That is interesting, though. I'll keep my thoughts until we reach this episode. :)
Oct 12 2008 06:55 pm   #15Eowyn315
The Bro Code is now an actual book. It came from How I Met Your Mother. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 12 2008 08:16 pm   #16TammyDevil666
Ha, that is so awesome that it's an actual book, I kind of want it now.  Barney is the man;)
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.