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Triangle: Episode Discussion

Oct 16 2008 10:44 am   #1sosa lola

- Poor Xander misses Riley. I kinda feel as sad for him as for Buffy. His guy friends disappear just like Buffy's boyfriends do.

- Anya: If you ever decide to go, I want a warning. You know, big flashing red lights, and-and-and one of those clocks that counts down like a bomb in a movie? And there's a whole bunch of, of colored wires, and I'm not sure which is the right one to cut, but I guess the green one, and then at the last second "No! The red one!" and then click, it stops with three-tenths of a second left, but then you don't leave. (pause) Like that, okay?

Anyone feels like hating Xander? *raises her hand*

- Interesting that Anya thinks that some girls could be the real reason for the wreck of their relationships with their boyfriends. It's the first time I see her laying the blame on girls, usually she's just anti-men.

- Riley's departure drove Buffy to think about becoming a nun, she did love him after all. :lol:

- Giles wanting to stay because of Buffy's depression of losing Riley is ironic considering how he's gonna leave her in the next season when she'd really need him around.

- Anya wanting Giles gone so she could run the store was actually a desire of hers since S5. :D

- Giles doesn't trust Anya to run the store on her own. Notice the frightened expression on his face at that thought.

- Xander as the supportive boyfriend who backs up his girlfriend is sweet. Sadly for Anya no one seems to think she could run the store by herself.

- Poor Xander, put in the middle of an Anya/Willow fight.

- BUFFY: It wasn't really so fast. Him leaving. According to everyone who isn't me, it was kind of gradual.

Everyone? It was only Xander. Buffy, you're too overdramatic.

- I really love the sister-y scenes between Buffy and Dawn, there are a lot of them in S5 and S6. Sadly not so much in S7.

- LOL at Spike's rollercoaster of emotions. That apology was so sweet though… I'd have melted. He's adorable! I think my favorite Spike is S5-Spike. So far he's been the most adorable character (along side with Giles and Xander. I love the men on BtVS. :D)

- Willow trying to de-rat Amy, very nice of her. Honestly, I'd have given up by now… how long she's been a rat? Two years? Seriously, Willow is just the sweetest person ever.

- WILLOW: It's so cute. He balances a bunch of stuff, including that fish in the bowl! A-and, but don't try it for real when you're six, because then you're not allowed to have fish for five years.

I LOVE me some info about the Scoobies when they were kids.

- I understand Anya being annoyed at Willow and Tara using magic supplies, especially after it took so much to convince Giles that she can take care of the store. But I kinda got the impression that Anya is the one who initiates the fights. I think Willow tries to be polite and nice even though she's not a big Anya fan, but Anya keeps twisting Willow's spontaneous words to her liking, trying to make her the bad guy. It's interesting that she only does this with Willow seeing how Giles always come off far more offending and rude to her.

- Tara suggesting buying the magic supplies was wise of her, especially seeing how upset Anya is. Willow, who sees herself as Giles' family member and a good witch, doesn't see a reason for paying. This is where Willow starts being irresponsible and I can't blame Anya for feeling irritated.

- So sweet of Xander to include Tara into his favorite girls circle as well as hiding behind her to escape another Willow/Anya fight. Didn't I say BtVS men are so adorable?

- Tara is the voice of reason. It's funny how characters like Anya and Spike who are so old act like immature children when young characters such as Tara are so mature and wise.

- Good for Xander to escape. Poor Tara was put in the middle the instant Xander left… so she does the safest thing and escapes, too. :D

- OMG, I'm so glad I don't have an Anya around when I'm writing fics or doing an important work. She's so irritating. Lol

- Cute to see Buffy and Tara hanging out without Willow. I love when the original three hang out alone with each other's partners. Like Buffy patrolling with Oz and her friendship with Tara in S6 as well as Xander's friendship with Oz and Riley.

- Nice conversation with Buffy and Tara. Maybe Riley is where he's supposed to be, maybe it's the best for him. Buffy's reaction to Xander/Anya splitting up was kinda over the top, but I get what they were going for. I'm so glad Buffy is so heartbroken about Riley's departure. She really cared for him. I wish Riley saw that.

- Willow/Anya? The female Spander indeed. :D They're just so much fun, I wish we had more scenes with these two.

- Oh, c'mon! Anya had driven a car in S3! They could have made it seem like Anya doesn't know how to drive this type of car, that would've worked. Continuity error!

- WILLOW: Giles can be an idiot. The smart kind, but still.
ANYA: Xander agreed.
WILLOW: Oh, right. Xander doesn't step out of line.
ANYA: (turns to look at her) Well, what do you mean by that?
WILLOW: Nothing.

It's interesting that Willow could still be respectful toward Giles even when she's mocking him, but not Xander.

- Yay, here comes Spander! :D I was amazed at how much this episode is entertaining. You can't go wrong with an episode if you pair Willow and Anya together and Xander and Spike together. They have amazing chemistry. And, no, I'm not talking about slash here, even though I do ship Spander.

- Aww, poor Xander is so upset he can't retort right. "I was here first." "Uh huh –in defeat- go away."

- Spike thinks Xander's blood beats onion rings any day. Onion rings!!! So, yeah, Spander can be canon. *hands on ears* Lalalalala I can't hear youuuuuuu!!!!! ;)

- Love how Spike is trying to get info on Buffy in a not so direct way. But pissed off Xander is no help. Also love how they both talk about their problems later while playing pool and not really hearing the other's.

- Aww, Tara is worried about Willow, but not Anya. Hee.

- XANDER: Also, sometimes I'll say something about Anya, and Willow'll get this look, this, um, "what the hell do you see in her" look.

It can be irritating when your best friend doesn't like your partner. :( You'd really want them to get along but sadly they don't. I wish someone said to Xander that he did the same thing to Buffy and Angel, actually he was more irritating toward them than Willow is with him and Anya.

- LOL!!! Everybody is engrossed with the fact that Olaf is around and freaking everybody out including the Scoobies, then in the mid of all of this, Spike walks nervously to Buffy and says hello. He's so darn adorable! :happy:

-ANYA: Uh, um...
XANDER: You dated him?
BUFFY: You dated a troll?
WILLOW: And we're what, surprised by this?

Ha!!! I wish the writers had Xander looking offended. :D

- Aww, I love when Buffy fell on Spike. He must have been so happy, especially since he won't let her get up. :lol:

- Buffy, you could've been nice. He's a vampire after all, not feeding on injured people is a big step. I loved that Spike kept taking care of the woman after Buffy was gone. This ungrateful attitude won't make Spike encouraged to do more good deeds, thankfully for Buffy, he still does.

- I think Willow is being reasonable. I was always amazed that Anya would fall so hard and just right away for a man after centuries of hating men. Not to mention the man who made her lose her job. If she hadn't arrived to grand Cordelia's wish against Xander, she would have still been a vengeance demon. I wish the writers did a little conflict using this fact with Xander and Anya. Their relationship would have been very interesting. It's no wonder that Willow would think that the second Xander hurts Anya, she'll wish something awful against him. As a matter of fact, it's true. When Xander leaves Anya at the altar, she'll wish to erase him from existence, which is way worse than turning someone into a troll.

- Anya also has a point in being wary of Willow. She's Xander's best friend and did have a crush on him in the past resulting to Xander cheating on Cordelia. Xander and Willow's past isn't comforting, not to mention how close they are to each other. It must be frustrating seeing how much Xander values Willow and her opinions.

- Okay, is Xander some sort of an immortal? How come Olaf beating him with his heavy hammer didn't kill him?

- You gotta admire Xander's loyalty and courage, after being beaten down, he still keeps fighting for Anya and Willow. It's amazing that he survived all these years without superpowers, it's actually a great message to us, normal people. We can make a difference, even without powers, we just have to be as brave as Xander.

- Hee, loved Anya cheering Xander on when he doesn't choose to sacrifice one of them.

- WILLOW: Uh, distract him from Buffy, uh, piss him off.
ANYA: I don't know how.
WILLOW: Anya, I have faith in you. There is no one you cannot piss off.

I just love the dynamic between those two. Especially when Willow gives Anya the thumbs-up when she glances at her asking with her eyes, "Am I doing okay?"

- ANYA: Hey, good job.
WILLOW: You too, very irritating.

:D

- Poor Giles. How much it'll cost him to fix the magic shop up.

- Dawn listening to the weird conversation. Some fans think it was pointless, I think it's necessary because when Spike spills the beans later, Dawn would believe him right away. The fact that she heard her mom, Buffy and Giles mention her name earlier and not in a comforting manner is clue enough.

Oct 16 2008 04:21 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis
<--is ignoring all the Spander talk.

I too thought it was weird that Xander was bitch slapped with a troll hammer (which will be later referred to as a "Troll God Hammer," which was weird), and not only be able to get up soon after, but not need a trip to the hospital or bleed huge amounts of his own blood.  It would have been interesting if Xander mysteriously had a super power none of us knew about, but the fact that average Xander survived all that with just a few scratches and a hurt arm?  Totally poor writing.

I thought Buffy's crying in this episode was totally fake--clearly Riley's departure didn't effect her all that much.

Yeah, that's all I've got for now :P

ETA:  You know, Xander has female friends and not guy friends (unless you count Giles)--all of the guys who enter his life are usually through his female buds as their companions.  Oz, (can we even count) Angel, Spike, Riley...okay, I'm drawing a blank.  Besides Jesse, Xander never had a real friend who was a guy--just a bunch of hangers on.
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Oct 16 2008 06:31 pm   #3TammyDevil666
I love me some Spander, and her fake crying in this episode was hilarious.  That's all I have to say...lol!
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Oct 16 2008 08:00 pm   #4sosa lola
I love me some Spander

Spander rocks, no ship sucks, that's my motto ;)

I thought Buffy's crying in this episode was totally fake--clearly Riley's departure didn't effect her all that much.

Her crying was bad acting on SMG's part, but storywise it shows how Riley's departure affected her. Since when Buffy cared about Xander/Anya, since when she wanted to be a nun, since when she cried openly in public?

You know, Xander has female friends and not guy friends

I consider Oz and Riley guy friends to Xander. He hung out lots of times with Oz without Buffy and Willow, he was the first to greet Oz back when he returned in S4, he was the one Oz went to to ask if Willow found herself a new boyfriend and he was the only one who mentioned Oz at all after S4. It's clear how fond he is of Riley. I remember Marc (actor who played Riley) saying in S5 DVD features that after losing Graham and Forrest, Xander was Riley's friend in S5 which was why he was comfortable telling Xander about something huge like Buffy not being in love with him.
Oct 16 2008 08:00 pm   #5Eowyn315
I never really liked this episode - it feels like the weak link in a very strong season. Usually Buffy does comedy really well, but this one seems to sacrifice so much logic for jokes that it most of the time it grates.

Riley's departure drove Buffy to think about becoming a nun, she did love him after all.
Nah. Buffy's chronic failure with men drove her to think about becoming a nun, and while I can sympathize (as I have a track record almost as bad as Buffy's), it seems like an elaborate set-up for an out-of-character joke. Buffy becoming a nun is so far out of the realm of possibility that I can't buy it even as a joke. (Also, I think they did this very scenario much better with Angel and the demon monks in "Heartthrob." )

I think my favorite Spike is S5-Spike.
I agree!

Willow trying to de-rat Amy, very nice of her. Honestly, I'd have given up by now… how long she's been a rat? Two years?
See, here's another instance where logic goes out the window. Willow's gotten pretty powerful at this point - just a few episodes from now, she'll be teleporting Glory into the stratosphere - plus she has Tara to help her, and neither of them can figure out how to turn Amy back? I don't think she's been trying very hard. And it's rather convenient that she figures it out right after Tara leaves her... Presto! New magic buddy.

I understand Anya being annoyed at Willow and Tara using magic supplies, especially after it took so much to convince Giles that she can take care of the store.
Um... how come this hasn't come up before? They must have been using magic supplies ever since Giles bought the store, so have they been paying up until now? Are Willow and Tara taking advantage of Anya because Giles was away? If not, then Giles clearly IS okay with it, and Anya has no business yelling at them. Interesting that this issue never comes up again, when Giles is around.

It's interesting that she only does this with Willow seeing how Giles always come off far more offending and rude to her.
Yeah, but that's because Giles isn't Xander's best friend since kindergarten, and Xander never cheated on his girlfriend with Giles (as far as we know...). I think what this episode emphasizes is that a significant portion of the antagonism between Willow and Anya is jealousy.

Buffy's reaction to Xander/Anya splitting up was kinda over the top, but I get what they were going for.
I thought this was incredibly unfunny. Just like the nun bit in the beginning, it totally rings false, both for Buffy and for the situation. When have we EVER seen Buffy act like that? We've seen her cry fo real, and it's nowhere near that ridiculous. She has never in her life gotten this emotional over Riley, so why now? Why have that reaction to something tangential (Xander and Anya) because she's supposedly upset about Riley leaving? Not to mention that her extreme overreaction to one little fight is that of a caricatured bad-sitcom character, and I definitely don't want to see that on Buffy.

Oh, c'mon! Anya had driven a car in S3! They could have made it seem like Anya doesn't know how to drive this type of car, that would've worked. Continuity error!
And again... this episode is riddled with continuity errors and out-of-character mistakes.

I was always amazed that Anya would fall so hard and just right away for a man after centuries of hating men. Not to mention the man who made her lose her job.
It wasn't really Xander's fault, though. I mean, technically, it was Wish!Giles who smashed the pendant, reversing the wish and making her human. Personally, I think she falls for Xander because he's the first guy she ever bothered to really get to know.

Okay, is Xander some sort of an immortal? How come Olaf beating him with his heavy hammer didn't kill him?
I think Olaf's hammer magically got heavier sometime around when Olaf retroactively became a troll god.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 16 2008 08:27 pm   #6sosa lola
I never really liked this episode

I only like it for the Willow/Anya and Xander/Spike parts. If that's all I got from an episode, I'll always be satisfied ;)

Usually Buffy does comedy really well

I disagree. Comedy epsiodes usually sacrifice character voices for jokes: for example Buffy in here and Pangs and Xander in Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa. Comedy was tighter in High School Years, but sadly since S4 it was usually done for the sake of joke even if it meant out of character.

Um... how come this hasn't come up before?

Because magic was usually used when needed to defeat the new episode monster. And besides, Giles was in charge. Anya was over-the-top because it took Giles lots of convincing to let her take care of shop on her own. That's why she was harsh with Willow and Tara.

She has never in her life gotten this emotional over Riley, so why now?

I think because he just left, it ought to make her upset and over-the-top. She may not have loved him like she did Angel, but she did love him. I think she's acting this way because it's still recent. But I agree about it being unfunny.

And again... this episode is riddled with continuity errors and out-of-character mistakes.

The only out-of-character bits I saw was Buffy's over-the-top acting, which obviously was done for comedy. Anya's bit was error in continuity but not out-of-character... actually, Anya has been oit-of-character since S4 if we're going to link her to her S3 character.

It wasn't really Xander's fault, though.

He was the reason she appeared in Sunnydale and made the wish. So it is his fault.

Oct 16 2008 08:44 pm   #7Scarlet Ibis
"She has never in her life gotten this emotional over Riley, so why now?"
I think because he just left, it ought to make her upset and over-the-top. She may not have loved him like she did Angel, but she did love him. I think she's acting this way because it's still recent. But I agree about it being unfunny.


I agree with Eowyn on this one--I mean, after she cries in that ep when Angel leaves in s3, on her bed with Willow and she's all like "I can't breathe!" and stuff....yeah, she wasn't really grieving for Riley leaving here.  I understand this was a comedy ep, but just because it was doesn't mean that that scene had to be played for comedy.  For instance, in TR, they take it back to being serious.  If they truly wanted to show that Riley really meant something to Buffy, they could have had twenty--hell, five seconds, of her sitting in her room alone with silent tears, looking at a picture of her and Riley, and then gone into their slapstick comedy bit.  The fact of the matter is, we, like Buffy, didn't have to take their break up seriously, cause it didn't hurt her.

I didn't hate the ep though--it was okay.  Nowhere near as good as TR or Pangs, but it was cool ;)
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Oct 16 2008 11:40 pm   #8Eowyn315
I disagree. Comedy epsiodes usually sacrifice character voices for jokes: for example Buffy in here and Pangs and Xander in Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa.
See, I would say that all those episodes are better than this one, and I think it's because there's only so much I can forgive. Those other episodes are pretty solid entertainment with one or two things that bug. In "Pangs," for instance, I don't find Buffy's Thanksgiving obsession particularly funny, but the rest of the episode totally makes up for it - everything that comes out of Spike's mouth is hilarious, all the Scoobies have their funny moments, the fight scene is ridiculous (in a good way) and even Angel makes me laugh. Same with OMWF - it's brilliantly written, the songs fit the characters and develop the plot, and it all makes sense except for one bit that doesn't come up until 5 minutes before the end.

But this episode has two really OOC Buffy scenes (the nun and the crying) - one would have been easily overlooked, but two is pushing it, especially when they're essentially making the same joke. And on top of that, it has no less than three indisputable continuity errors, plus a bunch of other bits that don't make sense and/or aren't explained, which makes me want to just throw up my hands at the whole thing.

Because magic was usually used when needed to defeat the new episode monster.
As a group, yeah. But Willow and Tara have been doing magic on their own for fun since they met. In fact, the early stage of their relationship was solely about getting together to do magic for fun. They must be getting their supplies somewhere, presumbly from the Magic Box (notice they shopped there even before Giles owned it). So are Willow and Tara being total dicks by taking advantage of Anya, or is Anya trying to make them pay when Giles never does?

I understand this was a comedy ep, but just because it was doesn't mean that that scene had to be played for comedy.
Exactly, and I think the fact that it IS played for comedy undercuts the message that Buffy really cared about Riley, which is exactly what they're relying on to make the joke work. The whole point of the joke is "Buffy's so upset about Riley that she does crazy things" like consider becoming a nun or burst into tears when Xander and Anya have a fight. But we don't see Buffy sincerely upset about it (the way we did with Angel, Spike, and hell, even Parker), so it's hard to buy her being ridiculous about it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 17 2008 12:51 pm   #9sosa lola


If they truly wanted to show that Riley really meant something to Buffy, they could have had twenty--hell, five seconds, of her sitting in her room alone with silent tears, looking at a picture of her and Riley

We've got the scene with Dawn. That was not played for comedy and it showed Buffy being upset about Riley's departure.

Nowhere near as good as TR or Pangs, but it was cool ;)

To be honest, I think Tabula Rasa is SO overrated. The only funny bits were Rupert/Enya/Randy, everything else felt so unfunny and unoriginal. "Oooh, we fight so we're sisters." "Oooh I think I'm gay." "Oooh you're name is Willow. It's cute. You know because we're girlfriends in real life." "Vampire with a soul? That's lame." That probably made some laugh but it didn't make me laugh. It sounded more like something I'd read in fanfic than in a real episode. But opinions and tastes differ ;)

I honestly don't see anything out of character in this episode. Why is it wrong for Buffy to grieve Riley? Sure, it was unfunny and annoying, but do you think that she'll just shrug it off and go on with her life? Seriously? Heck, Parker was just a one night stand and Buffy made an idiot out of herself while mooning after him and he was obviously Angel's rebound. Riley was Buffy's boyfriend for a year and a half, even if she didn't love him, she'll miss his presence, his smile, his jokes, going out with him to movies and restaurants, the sex, how he made her happy, double dates with Xander and Anya..... it's logical to grieve him.

Other out of character moments in this ep? Nothing. Willow and Anya always disliked each other. Xander and Spike were also in character. Buffy's crying was annoying and over-the-top but it's not like when she shrugged at Xander sick with Syphilis and only cared about food? Like preferring food over Xander's health, that is out of character, but I can see it's made for comedy. This Riley bit is much more expected and more believable than that Thanksgiving thing.
 

Oct 17 2008 10:19 pm   #10nmcil
In "Pangs," for instance, I don't find Buffy's Thanksgiving obsession particularly funny, but the rest of the episode totally makes up for it - everything that comes out of Spike's mouth is hilarious, all the Scoobies have their funny moments, the fight scene is ridiculous (in a good way) and even Angel makes me laugh.

Why I don't particularly like "Triangle but loved the splendid, even brilliant, "Pangs" is because it is based on the ugly and dark reality of history  - both the history of this country and the history and changes and contrast of the characters.  Buffy is all "obsseso girl" over Thanksgiving, but it's based on the important changes of her life,  Xander has changed from his unsuccessful role to his new success in construction and we have the Anya "I want to see him dig"  scene for contrast, Spike is totally fallen to status vulnerable pathetic Big Bad,  and the entire episode goes along with the dark reality and contrast. 

"Triangle" is based on cliche,  of guy stuck in between two women which we have all seen many times - it could have been two mothers, two fathers, two guys - and while the storyline of Willow vs. Anya is true, the series, IMO, does not have a strong support of this rivalry.  When I watch the episode, I don't think of a strong history of squables or hurt that happens between these ladies or how it effected Xander.  With Xander and Spike, we have lots of support for their animosity, and much more with Buffy and Spike.  Buffy, as was suggested crying showing great pain over Riley's  leaving and then a comedic scene would have given contrast - but Buffy going into this wannabe funny crying melt down; not so funny to my POV.  Buffy cooking and making all the drama over things not being right or perfect was funny to me, we probably all remember our first Real Cooking Experience.  Mine was trying to make an omelette only to discover that the eggs went right passed my fork onto the plate or my husband walking in on me trying to cut open a gourd. 

from sosa lola:
"Buffy's crying was annoying and over-the-top but it's not like when she shrugged at Xander sick with Syphilis and only cared about food?"

Again, with the black humor and history - Xander suffers from  a disease because the Native Americans were deliberately infected and suffered great pain and deaths  from the strains of infectious diseases brought in from other parts of the world -  that Buffy does not show great concern or care, that was the reality of the history of struggles for dominance in the expansion of the immigration toward the West. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 18 2008 02:03 am   #11Eowyn315
I honestly don't see anything out of character in this episode. Why is it wrong for Buffy to grieve Riley?
It's not out of character for her to miss him. But as you pointed out, we've seen Buffy be upset over guys before - both serious relationships and not - and she has NEVER acted like this. So why start now, except for a cheap laugh?

Xander has changed from his unsuccessful role to his new success in construction
This is completely unrelated to this thread, but it just occurred to me. "Pangs" comes fairly early in the season, and Xander tries a whole slew of demeaning jobs after this, at which he is mostly unsuccessful. Why? If he was so good at construction (which he must have been, given that he turned it into a decent career), why didn't he try to find other jobs in construction? Why settle for delivering pizzas or driving an ice cream truck or selling those ridiculous bars? Then he might have actually been successful a lot sooner. As it stands, this episode ISN'T a change from his crappy jobs to his new success - it's just another in a series of crappy jobs, most of which he kinda sucks at. (Falling in a hole and getting syphilis isn't really what I'd call a success...)

Also, why did we skip over season 4 in the discussions? Did I miss something? It seems like we've been referencing a lot of season 4 episodes or events in the season 5 discussions, so I wondered why we skipped those episodes.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 18 2008 02:42 am   #12Scarlet Ibis
It didn't appear that most people wanted to discuss that season in general.  I don't think it was a mistake to go from three to five, and five seems to be most peoples favorite season.  After all, we are rehashing every. Single. Episode from that season.  And even the discussions aren't in order--Spikez-tart started a FFL/Darla thread and I started a Crush one out of sequence.  Not that it matters either way.

Anyone who wants to discuss a specific ep from season four, feel free to start a thread.  There aren't any rules for this.
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Oct 18 2008 01:15 pm   #13sosa lola

I wouldn't have minded discussing S4. I've always seen it as a light hearted season and it's enjoyable to watch :)

while the storyline of Willow vs. Anya is true, the series, IMO, does not have a strong support of this rivalry.

But you can't say that it's not there. From S3, Anya had tricked Willow to bring back to bracelet in which Willow's dislike of Anya started. I remember a scene in S3 where Xander brings Anya to the library to help the Scoobies and Willow grimaced in annoyance. So Willow's dislike of Anya started since S3. She was also against Xander taking Anya to the prom. In S4, Pangs, Willow suggested, so eagerly, that Buffy shouldn't invite Anya. Also when the gang were fighting in The Yoko Factor, Xander yelled at Willow, "I knew you hated her (Anya)" when Willow mocked Xander for spending more time with Anya than his friends.

Anya also expressed dislike to Willow's closeness to Xander. In Something Blue, when Xander stated that Willow's whininess about losing Oz was getting irritating, Anya eagerly said, then I don't have to be nice to her. In Into the Woods, Giles had made fun of Anya's suggestion and she had said nothing, but when Willow jumped into the mockery, Anya jumped into insulting Willow.

So while it's not as obvious as Xander/Spike for example, it's still there. And I'm happy they made an episode about it as I enjoy Willow and Anya together. Same goes for the Xander/Spike scenes.

Again, with the black humor and history - Xander suffers from a disease because the Native Americans were deliberately infected and suffered great pain and deaths from the strains of infectious diseases brought in from other parts of the world - that Buffy does not show great concern or care, that was the reality of the history of struggles for dominance in the expansion of the immigration toward the West.

I get that Buffy's attitude was made for comedy or metaphor, like Willow's attitude was, but when you really think about it, Buffy and Willow would throw everything in their hands if one of their friends, especially Xander, was in danger. So their attitude, while funny, was out of character.

we've seen Buffy be upset over guys before - both serious relationships and not - and she has NEVER acted like this. So why start now, except for a cheap laugh?

Duh! :) It's a comedy episode. I'd say they could have showed Buffy grieving without the silly crying. The writing as well as SMG's acting were off IMO. But I don't think it's out of character.

Oct 19 2008 02:39 am   #14Spikez_tart
why did we skip over season 4 in the discussions - My Bad!  I thought we were done and started up with S5.  We can go back.  We should go back!

I loved this episode.  The stuff with Anya/Aud was hilarious - especially the load bearing barmaid - Spike's suggesting the troll could find babies at the hospital and asking Xander's opinion and later copping a feel from Buffy while she's trying to fight.  I admit that Xander would have had to have about 5 surgeries to get his hand fixed after the troll crushed him.  I liked that they showed Buffy missing Riley with the conversation with Dawn about taking down the pictures.  Okay it was fluff, but good.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 19 2008 05:47 am   #15Eowyn315
Duh! :) It's a comedy episode.
But comedy doesn't - or shouldn't - give you license to write someone out of character. That's why it's a cheap laugh, and not an earned one. If you don't think it's out of character, then good for you that you can enjoy the episode, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because I can't in any way square it with the Buffy we know.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 19 2008 12:30 pm   #16sosa lola
But comedy doesn't - or shouldn't - give you license to write someone out of character.

I agree. I guess I was just happy that Buffy was missing Riley, because fans thinking she won't kinda annoyed me and didn't make sense even if Riley wasn't a popular character, they have to admit that he was Buffy's boyfriend for more than a year, she ought to miss him. Not to mention that he wasn't an abusive boyfriend, he was very gentle and sweet, someone worth missing.

While Buffy's crying to Tara annoyed me, I never thought that Buffy never grieved openly in public. I think it's after her mom's death that she becomes this closed off person, but before that, she was okay with displaying emotional scenes in front of her friends.

I'm with you that I didn't enjoy the Buffy scenes in this episode. But the Anya/Willow and Xander/Spike stuff make up for it and makes wish to watch it all over again.
Oct 19 2008 05:08 pm   #17Eowyn315
I guess I was just happy that Buffy was missing Riley, because fans thinking she won't kinda annoyed me
See, I actually took the scenes the opposite way - Buffy missing Riley is played for laughs, so I get the impression we're not supposed to take Buffy's feelings seriously. That, IMO, denigrates the Buffy/Riley relationship - we don't really get to see her actually being sad, we only get to see her acting like a goofball. Contrast this episode to her scenes grieving when Angel loses his soul, is sent to hell, and leaves for LA - it's seems like we're supposed to see a break-up with Angel as worthy of real grief, but Riley's departure is only good for a joke.

While Buffy's crying to Tara annoyed me, I never thought that Buffy never grieved openly in public.
Well, she doesn't, really - she cries with Willow, in the privacy of her bedroom. But she doesn't start wailing in public, especially not over something as silly as Xander and Anya having a fight. She's known them as a couple for a year now - how many fights have they had?? They're obviously not breaking up, and it's ridiculous for her to jump to that conclusion - even if she's upset about Riley. It almost sounds like she's deliberately misunderstanding what Tara's saying so that she can assume the worst.

Buffy has never been the type to react irrationally to grief. Every time she loses Angel, she does so with class, stoically doing her job no matter how wrecked she is inside. She usually breaks down at some point (crying on her bed in Innocence, running away in Becoming, crying with Willow in The Prom), but she's always able to separate her hurt feelings from whatever else is going on.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 19 2008 05:35 pm   #18sosa lola
See, I actually took the scenes the opposite way - Buffy missing Riley is played for laughs, so I get the impression we're not supposed to take Buffy's feelings seriously. That, IMO, denigrates the Buffy/Riley relationship - we don't really get to see her actually being sad, we only get to see her acting like a goofball. Contrast this episode to her scenes grieving when Angel loses his soul, is sent to hell, and leaves for LA - it's seems like we're supposed to see a break-up with Angel as worthy of real grief, but Riley's departure is only good for a joke.

Hmmm, you have a good point here. I think the scene between Buffy and Dawn was a very good scene to show that Buffy misses Riley. Shows that it's something serious. The comedy is over the top later, but maybe the writers thought that after the scene between Buffy and Dawn it was okay to use comedy later, seeing as the episode is a comedy. I guess we should look into it deeper and forget the comedy. In the end, Buffy was upset about Riley leaving. She's trying to hide it but, unknowingly, she shows it by obsessing over other things like the fight between Xander and Anya.

But she doesn't start wailing in public, especially not over something as silly as Xander and Anya having a fight.

The thing is, she doesn't care about Xander and Anya having a fight. It was her bottled up emotions about Riley being gone coming to surface. She exploded because she was trying hard to keep the pain inside.

It almost sounds like she's deliberately misunderstanding what Tara's saying so that she can assume the worst.

I think that's our answer. Subconsciously, Buffy is looking for anything to get her an excuse to cry. Subconsciously, she wants the pain out and she's using Xander and Anya's fight as an excuse.
Oct 19 2008 07:34 pm   #19Scarlet Ibis
In the end, Buffy was upset about Riley leaving. She's trying to hide it but, unknowingly, she shows it by obsessing over other things like the fight between Xander and Anya.
Yeah, but she's clearly not that upset about it.  Also, there'd be no legitimate reason to hide that pain--she would have been allowed with her friends to be upset all over the place, but that isn't case here.  I haven't seen this ep in a minute, but in the scene with Dawn, isn't she taking down Riley's pictures and tossing them in the trash or something, and not saving them for later in case they got back together?  It was kind of like an "oh well" attitude IMO.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 19 2008 08:37 pm   #20goldenusagi
Coming in sort of late here...  I don't really have anything to add to the 'Buffy being upset or not over Riley' discussion, but I enjoyed this episode as a whole.  I liked Willow and Anya's bickering, but I really liked Spike and Xander's conversation where they're both griping about Buffy and Willow.  Xander is sort of put off with Spike at first, but he has no problem playing a friendly game of pool with him.  This is one time they're shown "hanging out" away from the group after Spike moves out of Xander's basement.  Spike's casual suggestion to Olaf that he could find babies at the hospital was hilarious.

And of course, Spike's apology to the mannequin had me rolling the first time I saw it.  It started out so cute, and then derailed from there.  Sweet, yet completely sad in a way.

Also, I wouldn't mind discussing some season four episodes.  That season didn't have one of my favorite arcs, but there are some good individual episodes.
Oct 19 2008 09:12 pm   #21sosa lola

Yeah, but she's clearly not that upset about it.

At this stage, she'd be that upset about it. Riley just left, it would be weird if Buffy was all shruggy about it. As for the picture taking thing, Buffy doesn't say that she threw them in the trashcan. She just took away his pictures from her mirror. Why would she keep them there? He left. She'll be pathetic if she left them there. Plus it'll hurt a lot looking at his face and knowing that he's gone. According to Dawn, it had taken Buffy some time to be able to actually take away his pictures. So his departure was not a no-big kinda deal.

Funnily enough, in Checkpoint, Riley's shirt is still lying down in there living room. Two weeks after he left.

Also, I wouldn't mind discussing some season four episodes. That season didn't have one of my favorite arcs, but there are some good individual episodes.

S4 is where my favorite men (Spike, Xander and Giles) have the most in common. All being losers with no purpose. :D Zugma, an amazing fanartist, had made me a banner with S4 Spike and Xander with the quote "A Scooby who can't be a Scooby like a vampire who can't be a vampire." Awww *hugs both loser boys*
 

Also, there'd be no legitimate reason to hide that pain--she would have been allowed with her friends to be upset all over the place


Buffy likes to hide that she's weak. And showing pain means showing weakness. It's why she pretended to be strong when her mom was ill in the hospital.
Oct 19 2008 10:51 pm   #22nmcil
while the storyline of Willow vs. Anya is true, the series, IMO, does not have a strong support of this rivalry.

But you can't say that it's not there.

You are correct, their rivarly has been part of the series, but what I meant was that, IMO, for an episode to be based on their rivarly - what we see in the past was not enough to sustain the comedy.  Of course, this is just my POV, and I am not especially drawn to comedy, unless it is black comedy or political and social satire.  For instance, I almost never watch sitcoms
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 20 2008 01:36 am   #23Eowyn315
The comedy is over the top later, but maybe the writers thought that after the scene between Buffy and Dawn it was okay to use comedy later, seeing as the episode is a comedy.
You're forgetting the "Buffy wants to be a nun" bit, which I also thought was over the top and out of character for Buffy. So that gives us two over the top scenes where the break-up is played for laughs versus one where it's serious, which tells me we're not really supposed to take it seriously. As for Buffy's spontaneous bursting into tears making any sense for her character, you're never going to convince me, so like I said up above, agree to disagree.

(For the record, I'm not disagreeing that Buffy should be grieving over Riley. I definitely think the relationship warrants some sadness and recovery time. I just don't think they did a very good job of a.) showing it, and b.) indicating to the audience that the relationship deserved it.)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 20 2008 12:48 pm   #24sosa lola
As for Buffy's spontaneous bursting into tears making any sense for her character, you're never going to convince me, so like I said up above, agree to disagree.

Pouts. Oh, well. I do agree with you that it's badly written and I would have preferred another writing of Buffy's over the top scenes. I do believe the relationship deserved it.... you know, it reminds me of Entropy when Anya wanted Xander's friends to wish him death or whatever. That scene was so cruel and it made Anya appear in such a bad light, but it was written as a comedy, therefore not making fans feeling awful about what she's doing. But when you think about it, it is scary how Anya wants to kill and erase Xander from existance and having his friends wishing it against him.
Oct 20 2008 05:08 pm   #25Spikez_tart
In thinking about this, I was wondering why the title Triangle?  It didn't see to make any sense, so while riding my exercycle this morning, I watched again.  There are several groupings in this that you don't frequently see:  Willow-Anya-Xander; Xander-Spike-Buffy(in absentia or thru the mannequin) and Buffy-Giles-Joyce. 

Xander is key in three scenes:
  • He's asked to referree between Anya and Willow, which he wisely refuses to do.  
  • Xander is asked surreptiously by Spike to referree with Buffy.  Spike tries to feel Xander out to find out whether Buffy is angry with him over the Riley business; interesting that Xander doesn't know anything about it.  Xander assures Spike that Buffy is not upset about group dynamics, which gives Spike the green light to approach Buffy later.  She's too busy to hear his apology, which is too bad because he's looking pretty sincere.
  • Xander is asked to choose between Willow and Anya by Olaf the Troll.  Again, he refuses and courageously fights the troll.
In the last scene, Buffy, Giles and Joyce are discussing the Council.  Dawn overhears that she is the Key that Glory is searching for.

In all the groups, there are people who are failing to communicate their thoughts, fears, etc. - Willow is afraid that Anya will hurt Xander; Anya is afraid that Willow will try to steal Xander back; Spike is afraid that Buffy is mad at him; Buffy is afraid that the Council will jeopardize Dawn's safety.  In all these cases, people have not been saying the things they want or need to say to others and allowing situations to fester.

Anya and Willow are able to resolve their issues and come together to get rid of the troll, but at the cost of several people getting hurt and a huge amount of property damage.  Spike, while perhaps relieved that Buffy isn't really angry, does not resolve his issues with her.  Dawn, of course, explodes when she finally finds out the whole secret.  Failure to talk to the people you know and love is dangerous.

On other points:

Buffy crying - Dawn is supposed to be Buffy's love interest this season, so maybe that's why she seems so goofy.

Giles absence - he's gone for three days (and couldn't he have got all this non-information over the phone?) and the shop is demolished and Willow's magic goes wacky, foreshadowing what will happen in S6 when he leaves the kids alone.


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 20 2008 07:38 pm   #26Eowyn315
I do believe the relationship deserved it.... you know, it reminds me of Entropy when Anya wanted Xander's friends to wish him death or whatever. That scene was so cruel and it made Anya appear in such a bad light, but it was written as a comedy, therefore not making fans feeling awful about what she's doing.
Hmm, I never really thought so much about Anya, but when I think of "serious situations played for laughs" on Buffy, I always go straight to "Gone," where Buffy basically forces Spike to have sex, even after he's said no, and it's played as silly because she's invisible - but of course, when the situation's reversed, it's played as very serious evil!Spike and victim!Buffy.

In thinking about this, I was wondering why the title Triangle? It didn't see to make any sense, so while riding my exercycle this morning, I watched again.
If it makes you feel better, Jane Espenson has commented that she was going for an oblique reference here, a title that was clever but didn't give away the whole plot of the episode, but in retrospect she thinks it might have been a little too obtuse. It was meant in reference to the Anya-Xander-Willow triangle.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 20 2008 08:09 pm   #27Guest
I am so glad you brought up Buffy pretty much not taking 'no' as an answer from Spike in that episode! I hate how so many people act like Spike attacked Buffy so everything she ever did in season six is ignored because she is the purely innocent and blameless victim in all things! Plus, I'm a woman, so nobody can say I'm biased about girls being teases and so 'asking for it' because that is totally different and I don't agree with that at all. Rape is one of the ugliest acts imaginable and--
Sorry, I'll try to wait for us to get to season six and not hijack this thread.

There were a lot of comedic moments in the show that I loved, though sometimes I didn't like how they shrugged something off after a joke. In the end of Season five in the Winnebago and the Knights of Byzantium, Willow yells, don't hit the horsies! Buffy says, We won't! then tells Giles, Aim for the horsies. They never mention, even when talking about killing Ben later, that Buffy was accepting the deaths of the human knights while she fought them then.  Plus, Xander and Giles sharing a laugh about how Xander could remember his memories while under the hyena posession but didn't let Willow or Buffy know, when he could at least have apologized to Willow and let her know he never thought of her like a weakling and he got tired of being around her and her pasty face.
Oct 20 2008 08:45 pm   #28nmcil

reading this thread,  again I am reminded of how seriously flawed all these character are and how much their actions got the proverbial "free card" -

With the title for "Triangle" - it never occurred to me that it did not primarily reference the Willox-Xander_Anya dynamic.  I can see now how it could also reference the other triads as well - thanks for the new idea.

It also occurs to me that Xander being placed in the middle of all the triangles could also foreshadow his own failed relationship of "Hell's Bells" - Xander is a real hero and protector in this episode, but all his hero qualities abandon him in his  important relationship with Anya.   The festering problems theme from "Triangle" are still going to destroy his relationship with Anya. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 20 2008 09:19 pm   #29sosa lola

In thinking about this, I was wondering why the title Triangle?

I've always thought it was about Willow-Xander-Anya. But you bring such interesting points.

when I think of "serious situations played for laughs" on Buffy, I always go straight to "Gone," where Buffy basically forces Spike to have sex, even after he's said no, and it's played as silly because she's invisible - but of course, when the situation's reversed, it's played as very serious evil!Spike and victim!Buffy.

It's annoying, isn't it? When something so serious is played for laughs, I always think about Anya. You know, how her past is played as a big joke.

when he could at least have apologized to Willow and let her know he never thought of her like a weakling and he got tired of being around her and her pasty face.

I think he wanted to, which was why he asked, "Did I do something around you, guys?" He was testing the waters, trying to see if his actions had affected them. Luckily for him, Buffy and Willow are aware that it wasn't Xander who had hurt them and they let him off the hook. I think he dealt with it the best way possible, and Giles wisely kept his mouth shut. It wasn't Xander's doing, so why make a big issue of a non-issue. Now if Buffy and Willow were still hurt by it, I can see and expect Xander to apologize.

The festering problems theme from "Triangle" are still going to destroy his relationship with Anya.

This is interesting. Would you explain more? :) Xander running away from Anya and Willow's fight, does it foreshadow him running away from his wedding? As in choosing to escape from future burdens and problems, not wanting to deal with them?
 

Oct 20 2008 11:01 pm   #30Spikez_tart
when he could at least have apologized to Willow and let her know he never thought of her like a weakling and he got tired of being around her and her pasty face. - Actually, I think Xander does think of Willow in this way, at least until the scene where she has ice cream on her nose and almost kisses her, and later when he sees her dressed up and for possibly the first time, sees her in a romantic light. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 21 2008 12:26 pm   #31sosa lola
Actually, I think Xander does think of Willow in this way, at least until the scene where she has ice cream on her nose and almost kisses her, and later when he sees her dressed up and for possibly the first time, sees her in a romantic light.

I disgree. Just because Xander doesn't see Willow in a romantic light, it doesn't mean he doesn't like being around her and thinks her face is pasty. I'd say he values her company more than Buffy at that stage of their friendship.
Oct 21 2008 02:01 pm   #32Scarlet Ibis
I'd say he values her company more than Buffy at that stage of their friendship.
He values Willow more than anybody.  To Xander, Willow could never do wrong.  That, and he did threaten to kill Buffy if anything happened to Willow.  A threat, sure, but he felt it.  He didn't feel that when Willow was actually trying to kill him (and Buffy, Giles, Dawn and Anya).  He may have Buffy on a pedestal most of the time, but Willow, well...she's in his arms (just not romantically).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 21 2008 04:53 pm   #33sosa lola
I agree with Scarlet, I think Buffy and Willow have the biggest place in Xander's heart, maybe because they're his family. Sadly, Xander's girlfriends never reached the level of love and respect that Xander has for Buffy and Willow. In Seeing Red right before he and Buffy hugged, he said, "I don't know what I'd do without you and Will." I think deep down he always knew that whatever he did and no matter what happened, Buffy and Willow will always be by his side and have his back. Something his own family didn't do, maybe that's why they're Xander's sacred women.
Oct 23 2008 02:39 am   #34Spikez_tart
I think Xander probably always values Willow more than anyone, but that doesn't necessarily preclude him from having some uncharitable thoughts about her - that she's not really attractive, she's a goody goody and that she hangs on him, particularly at a time when he wants to do the whole Guy Bonding thing. 

Since the writers threw that remark in - I think you have to give it consideration as a truthful remark.  I think at one point Willow (in some dark phase or other) says "I don't like you." to Buffy.  I think that's a true statement as well.  Willow doesn't like Buffy all the time.  Anything that Willow does, in whatever character permutation she happens to be in, is an accurate reflection of some part of her character.  The same with Xander in his hyena character, or Buffy when she's the Buffybot or when she's being mean and aggravating Buffy.  The wolf is in you all the time.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 23 2008 04:03 am   #35Scarlet Ibis
I think at one point Willow (in some dark phase or other) says "I don't like you." to Buffy. I think that's a true statement as well.
Vamp! Willow says that.  Dark Willow says she thought that Buffy needed every square inch of her ass kicked (which I agreed with, but that's another story for another thread).  I think Willow meant it to an extent, but if she had been her regular sane self, she wouldn't have phrased it like that.  Dark! versions of typically "good" characters allows them to say the things that they think in the back of their minds, but in the cruelest way possible.

It seems to me that with a "darkness" inside someone, it gives them a freedom to their real opinions--it frees them from every iota of repression to the full extent.   I have no doubt that Xander thought Willow to be, well, kindly put, beige--bland, boring, unsexy, and would probably blend in with the wall paper.  But would Xander, with his full faculties, ever call her a pasty faced anything and mean it?  No, absolutely not.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 24 2008 03:52 am   #36Spikez_tart
Willow has expressed anger and resentment of Buffy when she is in her right mind - "I'm not your sidekick." comes to mind. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?