BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Bargaining Part 2: Episode Discussion

Nov 23 2008 05:08 pm   #1sosa lola
- Tara has developed quite nicely as a character, it was good to see her comforting Anya and being strong and confident.

- Xander realizes that there's something Willow is hiding from them and Willow is trying to avoid discussing it with him. Now I understand why Tara and Xander were easily convinced to do the spell, if Tara knew there would be some sort of black magic, maybe she won't agree to do it. Tara not agreeing would make Xander's doubts about it grow further and he won't be agreeing to do it as well.

- How cute is Xander and his macho-ness. "Stay behind me," trying to protect Willow. He's adorable.

- Poor Buffy, I can see why she'd think it's hell with all the fire and fuzzy vision.

- Heee! Love that Spike misses doing damage and evil. I like that they still keep some of his soulless, evil desires. It makes their portrayal of a soulless vampire trying to be good for love more realistic.

- XANDER: Okay, I so need male friends.

I so agree.

- XANDER: There's this guy at work I kind of hit it off with. Tito. I mean, he seems like a good...

Tito is about forty years old!!! He needs someone his age or at least in his twenties. Spike is way older than him but he does act like a twenty-something guy.

- ANYA: It's just, how are we supposed to fight these guys? (Everyone looks at her) I mean, we can take a vampire or two, sure, but there's a whole cavalcade of demons out there ... (uncertainly) I mean, I think this, you know ... it, it takes, um ... I mean, I ... we need...

It's weird to see Anya a little nervous about making her point. She's always been blunt when saying hard truths. It's a nice change to see her considerate about what she's gonna say.

- Poor Willow, she worked really hard on bringing Buffy back. I think she let herself believe that Buffy was really in a hell dimension.

- Even though she's a robot, what the bikers did to Buffybot is too awful and cruel. I actually grimaced in disgust.

- I have to applaud the writers for their amazing portrayal of Buffy coming out of death, and it still amazes me that some fans are shocked by her depressed and change in character. Try coming back to life after being in heaven and see how you'll react.

- TARA: Maybe it wasn't supposed to. I mean, those demons showing up at the exact wrong time? Maybe we really were in over our heads. Invoking forces that we have no right to. Maybe the fates sent down all that destruction on us to stop us. I mean...

Too late with that thinking, sistah.

- ANYA: (softly to Xander) I'm not saying we announce it this second.
XANDER: (whispers) Anya!
ANYA: Well, I think it would please them to know we're engaged. And I think Willow in particular could use a real morale-booster right now.
XANDER: Can we talk about this later?
ANYA: Well, but it's just all the excuses for not telling everyone we're engaged are gone now. I mean, aside from hell bikers, there's nothing standing in our way. This is it. No more surprises.

Okay, Anya, you need to find much better times to talk to him about this. Because, seriously, I agree with Xander that right now isn't a good time.

- The most defining moment was when Willow distinguished between Buffy and Buffybot. I love that moment, but I guess while Buffybot had expressed sad emotions yesterday about Spike not liking her anymore, she can't do the broken, confused look on real Buffy's face.

- Another defining moment was when Xander realized that they had left Buffy, alive and breathing, inside her coffin. What makes me like this moment more than the Willow one is Xander's apparent self-loathing and disgust at what they had done to their friend, which then gets reflected on the others as they appear shocked and upset by their foolishness.

- Nice to see Xander apologize to Buffy and try to reach out for her, unfortunately as Tara says, Buffy is too traumatized to comprehend what he's saying.

- Sadly, Anya still keeps choosing the worst times to reveal their engagement. It makes her appear self-centered instead of letting me sympathize with her.

- Hee, Willow could've used Xander's help with Buffybot's puns. He's as good as Buffy.

- When Razor said "Hold you down and enjoy ourselves" it kinda sounded like rape, but I'm thinking he's talking more about torture or just plain killing them.

- I used to think "Aww, Buffy, even when dazed, she's helping out her friends." But I guess it wasn't really her intention when she was fighting those bikers, she appeared more curious when she stood up and faced them, she only got into slayer mode when she was hit.

- Poor Buffybot, loved Spike's "It's just a machine, Dawn" trying to comfort her. It's still hard on Dawn, having this perfect robot that looked and sounded just like her sister. However, I think it's better that Buffybot is gone, because now Dawn can move on easily.

- I understand why Dawn ran away in shock. But it is inconsiderate of her to leave Spike like that without a word. The poor guy is gonna search everywhere for her and blame himself for losing her. I just hate it when someone runs off and tells you nothing, been there, not a good experience at all.

- Xander's fighting skills get a boost, let's wait until some episode arrives and he loses all that kicking and swinging.

- XANDER: She's Buffy. She's herself again. (She looks at him) You're back, Buffy, you really are.

LOL! Not so fast, kiddo.

- ANYA: Where's she going?
TARA: Should we follow her?
WILLOW: I don't know.
XANDER: She just ... needs some time is all.

OMG! Your friend is running away all damaged and traumatized, of course, you should follow her! When she's calm, that's when you give her space.

- Yay, love Tara's first axing

- Glad some sense returned to the gang as they now walk away looking for Buffy.

- Dawn is happy that Buffy is back. Who wouldn't?

- I really hate it when Dawn's contributions to help Buffy and the others get glossed over by some fans. They only remember when the others helped Dawn but no one remembers when Dawn was there for the others. This scene is a great example of Dawn's loyalty, braveness and worthiness.

- This scene here is similar to Xander and Willow's Yellow Crayon scene in a way. Both Xander and Dawn give love to their damaged suicidal loved ones, giving them a reason to live. Buffy couldn't let Dawn die, just like Willow couldn't kill Xander.
Nov 23 2008 05:32 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis
I have to applaud the writers for their amazing portrayal of Buffy coming out of death, and it still amazes me that some fans are shocked by her depressed and change in character. Try coming back to life after being in heaven and see how you'll react.
I don't think anyone has a problem with how she reacted upon first coming back.  Overall though, it did make the sense that's not.  Angel went to hell for what, a hundred years, and coped better than being in heaven for several months.  Call me crazy, but it sounds like a nice vacation to me.  At any rate, staying with this episode specifically, I thought it was nicely done how she was brought back.

The most defining moment was when Willow distinguished between Buffy and Buffybot. I love that moment, but I guess while Buffybot had expressed sad emotions yesterday about Spike not liking her anymore, she can't do the broken, confused look on real Buffy's face.
I don't know--I mean her entire appearance did not scream Buffy Bot.  The shampoo commercial hair was gone, and of course, she was wearing the exact same outfit that Buffy was buried in.  Kind of silly to assume it was the bot.

Sadly, Anya still keeps choosing the worst times to reveal their engagement. It makes her appear self-centered instead of letting me sympathize with her.
I think that's the point though.  Anya, for whatever reason, still focuses on things about her and money.  She's come a long way, sticking around for apocalypses and stuff and trying to save Xander (in "The Gift" ), but the writers were never keen on making her insightful or more aware of what was going on around her.  Which I feel is a huge oversight, considering her age, but that's what they wanted to show.

When Razor said "Hold you down and enjoy ourselves" it kinda sounded like rape, but I'm thinking he's talking more about torture or just plain killing them.
That was definitely a double entendre.  He probably was referring to A, B, and C.

- I really hate it when Dawn's contributions to help Buffy and the others get glossed over by some fans. They only remember when the others helped Dawn but no one remembers when Dawn was there for the others.
I think that no one ever really remembers the good a character can do--the bad will forever outshine the good to some viewers (or in life in general.  A certain politician comes to mind, anyway).  That's why some are so quick to harp on Xander's faults, or Spike's, Giles...and that's all they will ever be to some viewers.

ETA: On that same token though, some characters will be forever good...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 23 2008 06:11 pm   #3Guest
I really felt for Dawn in this episode. And the few Spike parts are great.

Poor Anya. It's hard not sharing something you feel so happy about.

About fans not liking Buffy's depression - it's not about how she was when she first came back. It's her behavior later, that wasn't realistic to a depressed person that was a problem. Also, having a whole season with a character wallowing in their own crap was a pretty risk move for TV. People don't want entertainment that's an extended downer.

CM
Nov 23 2008 06:13 pm   #4slaymesoftly
I agree with almost everything (I have internet back - yay!). However, I think we can make a distinction between a 200 yr old vampire being in a hell dimension (and coming back quite feral - it took him a while to come around) and a young human girl who'd been in a peaceful place, "done" as she put it with her stressful life, being yanked out of there and back into something that had to look a lot like hell to her.  Other than both having been somewhere else, I don't see a lot of similarities - either between the characters involved, or their experiences.

Definitely A, B and C. lol

I think fans give Dawn very little credit for much of anything. Some of that can be blamed on the writers who made her so childish so much of the time, but some of it is just -as you said - focusing on the bad and ignoring the good.  Jossverse characters are very rarely one-dimensional. It why we we keep talking and writing about them.  They have so much to offer -both good and bad.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 23 2008 07:19 pm   #5Eowyn315
The most defining moment was when Willow distinguished between Buffy and Buffybot.
Yeah, I have to go with Scarlet on this one - there is no way that's the Buffybot. I could understand her hair being messed up, maybe from fighting the hell bikers, but how could the bot's hair have gotten longer? And the dress - which they should've recognized right away as the one they buried her in - should have been a dead giveaway. (Sidebar: Who the hell picked out that dress? That is the most godawful dress to be buried in.)

OMG! Your friend is running away all damaged and traumatized, of course, you should follow her! When she's calm, that's when you give her space.
Yeah... this entire two-parter is not exactly the Scoobies' shining moment in terms of their intelligence. I've never seen a group of people be so consistently stupid, lol.

Angel went to hell for what, a hundred years, and coped better than being in heaven for several months. Call me crazy, but it sounds like a nice vacation to me.
There's really no way to compare the two experiences. First of all, Angel didn't die - he was transported to a hell dimension. So there was never that sense of finality that Buffy had. Remember how everyone was talking about how exhausted and depressed and at the end of her rope she was in the s5 discussion threads? Her death was a relief from all that. And now she's back, with all the same issues and pressures she had before she died, only with the additional burden of knowing how good things could be if she'd stayed in heaven. Once Angel got over the trauma of hell, he was happy to be back. Being back here was an improvement over the hell dimension. Buffy, on the other hand, hated being brought back and spent most of s6 wishing she could go back to heaven. They're two completely different reactions to two completely different experiences. To put it simply, Angel's trauma was being in hell, and once he was out, he could recover. Buffy's trauma was leaving heaven, and until she either got back there or accepted life for what it was, she would never recover.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 23 2008 09:37 pm   #6Guest
That dress is definitely somber, I'll give them that. I wonder if Giles picked it? Finally wanting to put Buffy in something appropriate?

CM
Nov 23 2008 09:49 pm   #7sosa lola
Angel went to hell for what, a hundred years, and coped better than being in heaven for several months. Call me crazy, but it sounds like a nice vacation to me.

It's not really the same. When someone was trapped in hell for years and then came back to life, of course they'll get better sooner. Life, no matter how crappy it is, is better than hell. But when someone was in heaven for awhile and then returned to life, they won't get better sooner, because they want to get back to heaven. Life is crappy, and Buffy finally got the taste of how adults live, it's not fun at all. No wonder she stays depressed for a long time. Maybe that's not fun TV, but it's realistic.

of course, she was wearing the exact same outfit that Buffy was buried in.

LOL, you're right.

It's her behavior later, that wasn't realistic to a depressed person that was a problem.

You don't really know. Depressed people can be like that and Buffy has even more reasons to be like that than a normal person.

this entire two-parter is not exactly the Scoobies' shining moment in terms of their intelligence. I've never seen a group of people be so consistently stupid, lol.

Poor Scoobies. lol

I think in that scene, their guilt and shock over leaving Buffy in the coffin was why they weren't sure how to act around Buffy. Xander tried reaching out for her but she won't listen, maybe that's why he thought it's better to leave her alone for a while. Thankfully, after they deal with the bikers, they go on looking for Buffy.
Nov 25 2008 01:28 pm   #8Guest
Actually, I do, as someone that's studied counseling, and been through a year of depression and therapy. There's a lot of mental illness in my family. Wasn't exactly talking out of my butt.

CM
Nov 25 2008 01:44 pm   #9BecomingChosenGirl13
Angel went to hell for what, a hundred years, and coped better than being in heaven for several months. Call me crazy, but it sounds like a nice vacation to me.
 How would you like it if someone gave you everything you wanted, and than took it away and expected you to be gratefull for it?.
Nov 25 2008 01:45 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis
How would you like it if someone gave you everything you wanted, and than took it away and expected you to be gratefull for it?.
If she really had a problem with it, she should have addressed her friends.  Besides, life is a drop in a bucket compared to an eternity--she'd get back there soon enough.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 25 2008 02:04 pm   #11BecomingChosenGirl13

Soon enough?, Buffy was 20, let`s say she lives till she`s 80 still being as depressed as she was... That is a really long time.
Your right, not as long as an eternity. But still, a huge depression is always bigger than a lot of joy.
And lol, how could she adressed her friends?, she was all dead and all, and i don`t think that you spend your last seconds on earth telling them to please let you stay six feet under. I really don`t think Buffy ever thought about beeing brought back. She thought that  it was finale.

Nov 25 2008 02:53 pm   #12sosa lola

Actually, I do, as someone that's studied counseling, and been through a year of depression and therapy. There's a lot of mental illness in my family. Wasn't exactly talking out of my butt.

I didn't really mean to be insulting, I just meant that people go through different stages of depression. Like Xander after Hell's Bells for example, he was going through a state of depression.  Excuse my limited knowledge of depression, but I've always thought that depressed people aren't alike. Some handle depression differently from the others. Buffy hated being back, she doesn't feel alive, she feels like she's going through the motions and can only express how she feels to the person she least cares about his opinion on her: Spike. She wants to let it out and he's the only one she wants to let it out on/to. It's not just about heaven, look how every blow comes her way, Buffy immediately goes to Spike for release, usually it's violence and sex. When Giles left, she kissed Spike again, when Riley came with his shiny wife and life, she went to Spike ordering him to tell her he loved her. I think she's hungry for love and connection in this hard world.

But I think it's better to analyze Buffy's state of depression and self-loathing while rewatching all the season.

If she really had a problem with it, she should have addressed her friends.

I don't think she wanted to make them feel bad about bringing her back, which is probably why she avoided talking to them.

Nov 25 2008 11:30 pm   #13Scarlet Ibis
Soon enough?, Buffy was 20, let`s say she lives till she`s 80 still being as depressed as she was... That is a really long time.
Not necessarily--she is a slayer after all. 

And lol, how could she adressed her friends?, she was all dead and all, and i don`t think that you spend your last seconds on earth telling them to please let you stay six feet under. I really don`t think Buffy ever thought about beeing brought back. She thought that it was finale.
Your question was "How would you like it if someone gave you everything you wanted, and than took it away and expected you to be gratefull for it?"
So in answer to that, if she was upset that she was taken from Heaven (by her friends), then she should therefore talk to her friends about it since they are the ones responsible for her not being there anymore.

Excuse my limited knowledge of depression, but I've always thought that depressed people aren't alike. Some handle depression differently from the others. Buffy hated being back, she doesn't feel alive, she feels like she's going through the motions and can only express how she feels to the person she least cares about his opinion on her: Spike. She wants to let it out and he's the only one she wants to let it out on/to.
Not trying to put words into CM's mouth, but what I think she was getting at, and what seems to be a general consensus to those who thought Buffy's behavior was not akin to someone who's depressed (in regards to her violent acts, obviously), and not the other stuff--the isolation and stuff.  Yes, people who are depressed have actions and moods that vary, sure, but violence isn't one of them.

And I really, really didn't want to put that on here and hijack this thread...I'd much prefer it on the other one.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 25 2008 11:41 pm   #14Guest

So in answer to that, if she was upset that she was taken from Heaven (by her friends), then she should therefore talk to her friends about it since they are the ones responsible for her not being there anymore.

That is not how Buffy does things. The scoobies were responsible for her not being in heaven any more, but Buffy knew she couldn`t come back there. Why make them miserable when it`s nothing they can do about it?, that is the reason she doesn`t tell them untill she is almost bursting into flames. And anyway, it wouldn`t have helped Buffy if they were all miserable with her, so no point in telling them.

Not necessarily--she is a slayer after all.
Yup, she is. But the most powerfull one. I don`t think the forces of darkness will ever get rid of her completely.
Nov 25 2008 11:42 pm   #15BecomingChosenGirl13
And that one over there was from me btw.
Nov 25 2008 11:55 pm   #16slaymesoftly
Um, people act out their depression in many ways, and violence is most definitely one of them. Didn't really plan to get into this discussion, but  I don't want to see it go off track with people arguing about what does and doesn't constitute "appropriate" behavior for someone who is seriously depressed.  Although the symptoms may be universal and easily recognized, not everyone handles it in the same way.  And Buffy's didn't last all season, I don't think. It gradually got better until she was able to cut loose her crutch (Spike) and begin to be herself again.  She didn't exactly become all bubbly, and watching Spike and Anya certainly didn't do much for her immediate mood, but she handled it.  I would say the way she coped with watching them, the bathroom incident, Spike's disappearance, being shot and having Willow save her life, and Willow's craziness all indicate that she was back among the living and willing to stay there.
As far as the season-long violence goes,  without watching the whole season again, I really can't remember a lot of violence towards Spike on Buffy's part. Yes, she did pop him once when he learned his chip didn't work on her - that one I thought was undeserved and out of the blue -- but also obviously a plot device. And when she hits him in Smashed, it's in retaliation for his deliberate baiting. He pushes her to hit him so that he can start the fight and show her his chip isn't working.  Aside from those two times, I don't remember seeing a lot of Buffy on Spike violence until Dead Things.  I may just not be remembering things correctly, but I'm leaning very heavily towards the idea that she beats on him all the time while they're involved as being more fanon than canon.  It's canon that she usually jumps up and leaves (even though we do see her sleeping next to him at least once, and also in DT we see them having a flirty, semi-affectionate conversation), but I just don't remember seeing a lot of random violence towards him.  She grew colder to him in front of the others, I think, although if you think about it, once they are having sex we rarely get to see them when the others are around. So even the idea that she's meaner than usual to him may be fanon.   Certainly, the way they are together in Older at her birthday party is very flirty and friendly if not couply while anyone else is looking.
Ok, I didn't mean to go on and on. lol I've been following these discussions and apparently saving up lots of opinions. LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 26 2008 01:22 am   #17Scarlet Ibis
Yup, she is. But the most powerfull one. I don`t think the forces of darkness will ever get rid of her completely.
Well, she has snuffed it twice already...Besides, it doesn't have to be a force of darkness--all it has to be is one ding a ling with a gun.  If Willow hadn't intervened, she would have flat lined indefinitely from Warren's bullet.

Um, people act out their depression in many ways, and violence is most definitely one of them.
Yeah, but it's typically self inflicted.  Buffy seemed to have like...mild, selective roid-rage.  Okay, that's a bit strong, but I can't think of a better simile   If Spike had been Riley or Angel, or had a soul, I don't think it would have happened at all.  I think the bulk of the problem stems from his soulless status, because it makes him "not real," and irrelevant.

I really can't remember a lot of violence towards Spike on Buffy's part. Yes, she did pop him once when he learned his chip didn't work on her - that one I thought was undeserved and out of the blue -- but also obviously a plot device. And when she hits him in Smashed, it's in retaliation for his deliberate baiting. He pushes her to hit him so that he can start the fight and show her his chip isn't working. Aside from those two times, I don't remember seeing a lot of Buffy on Spike violence until Dead Things.
Well first, Buffy had been pretty comfortable with punching Spike in the face whenever she felt like it in s5, but that changed after "Intervention."  It starts up again in "Smashed," (though it probably would have started in "Tabula Rasa" if that demon shark hadn't intervened in that opening scene) and continues on from there.  The morning after in "Wrecked" was physical and verbal, "Gone," which was played for laughs, the overt "Dead Things," "As You Were," "Entropy" a bit (verbally, though really it just circles back to what she said in OMWF that it "isn't real"--his feelings)...  So, in some shape or form, there was something definitely un-kosher going on there, and it lasted 5/7 episodes (excluding "Doublemeat Palace" and "Older and Far Away" ) that spanned their relationship, and I'm excluding any eps post-dumping.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 26 2008 02:14 am   #18Eowyn315
But in how many of those episodes does Spike give as good as he gets? "Smashed," certainly, and the morning after in "Wrecked." She doesn't actually punch him in "Gone" - her roughness is sexual, and certainly no worse than anything either of them did to each other in the abandoned house, judging by their bruises and scratches. In "Dead Things," Buffy clearly wins the violence competition, but Spike holds his own in the verbal sparring that comes before it. And I really disagree with "Entropy" being an example of Buffy being verbally abusive. Spike threatens her to get her to tell her friends about them (not for the first time), and refuses to accept it when she tries to tell him she doesn't love him. To be honest, Buffy's letting him down pretty gently considering how obstinate he's being about it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 26 2008 02:20 am   #19Scarlet Ibis
Spike threatens her to get her to tell her friends about them (not for the first time), and refuses to accept it when she tries to tell him she doesn't love him. To be honest, Buffy's letting him down pretty gently considering how obstinate he's being about it
Oh no, not that part--later in his crypt I was referring to.

"Gone," is...something I'll wait till we actually discuss the ep.  The rest of the eps too. 

<--is trying really hard to not hijack the thread
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 26 2008 03:08 am   #20Eowyn315
I was referring to both scenes. Considering how Spike acts in the first scene (and considering that he shows no sign of changing his tune in the second), I don't blame Buffy at all for saying what she does.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 26 2008 03:18 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
He didn't do anything in the second scene--Buffy comes in, accuses him of spying on her, and he responds simply, with no sarcasm or malace--
"No, you don't. I've tried to make it clear to you, but you won't see it. Something happened to me. The way I feel... about you... It's different. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself it isn't. It's real."  And then she goes on to tell him that his feelings are real to him, and that's as far as it goes.  What exactly warranted that?  Sure, she could have said she didn't share those feelings, etc., but why say that his feelings don't matter?  That to people who matter, what he feels isn't real?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 26 2008 09:29 pm   #22Eowyn315
Honestly, Scarlet, I've found arguing with you to be somewhat akin to arguing with a brick wall, so I'm just going to say that I see it differently - given Spike's utter inability to take no for an answer, she had to be firm in letting him know that what he wanted was never going to happen - and leave it at that.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 26 2008 09:48 pm   #23Guest
Honestly, Scarlet, I've found arguing with you to be somewhat akin to arguing with a brick wallgiven Spike's utter inability to take no for an answer, she had to be firm in letting him know that what he wanted was never going to happen
First, ditto. 

Second, if by "refusing to take no for an answer" is in regards to Spike not willing to give in to Buffy's opinion that his feelings don't count, and Buffy "being firm" in ascertaining that there was no chance in hell that the event of her ever acknowledging his feelings as being real to ever occur (in his soulless state anyway), then ditto there too.

~Scarlet
Nov 28 2008 11:07 am   #24nmcil
Thing is that it is very difficult to make Spike the "bad buy" in the relationship - Buffy is just as miserable to Spike, if not more so, than Spike is miserable to himself and to her.  Ever since OMWF the constant theme of these two has been as  reflections of both reality and fantasy, love and hate, denial of each other's emotional needs and  traumas, failure of respect for each other, and most tragic, IMO, failure to reach for balance and love.

OMWF sets them on the road to failure and constant misery, but there is no such thing, IMO, as either be given the "moral high ground" and I tend to give Spike just a bit more points and slack in their relationship than Buffy. For Buffy nothing is real accept her trauma and emotional needs, for Spike everything is devastating real in his love, passion, devotion, and equally intense emotional needs.

The metaphor is all set up in Life vs Death and the tragic contrast of Reality vs Emotional Reality - Buffy and Spike throw themselves in the "Alice Rabbit Hole World" where her life is based on his emotional death and Spike's love can only bring him emotional destruction and emotional death. Buffy must use him over and over to cover her living emotional death, even as he has been her savior from her dance of death. Spike reaches over and over for the love and life that he is desperate to share with her. Episode after Episode has imagery of killing, death, and destruction contrasted with emotional needs, sexual passion, rejection, and temporary acceptance. Their realities are as Buffy states "this isn't real" and Spike's "willing slave" plus his "if my heart could beat, it would break my chest."

This is an especially powerful lines From "As You Were"

BUFFY: No more games.

SPIKE: (upset) Well, that's bloody funny coming from you! No more games? That's all you've ever done is play me. You keep playing with rules you make up as you like. You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same.

When you take the complete fantasy that is Sam and Riley contrasted to how she both sees and uses Spike’s love and the death/killing dreamscape metaphors – the reflections and contrast of "Buffy-Spike in the rabbit hole" can only lead to his "breaking of heart and love/life dream destroyed." Buffy also completes her dreamscape need of death/killing of Spike in order to restore her life with a reality that she can accept. We will also see the destruction of Spike’s long held belief that he would not hurt Buffy.

Life for Buffy, Death for Spike in a wonderful conversion of "and it's killing me."

That she uses William and not Spike makes it clear that she is killing both the man and the vampire even as she is saving herself. When Riley offers to kill Spike for her, she says no because she has to destroy their relationship herself.

I thought this was one splendid arc treatment from the start of OMWF to AYW and onto the next phase of the creation of Spike/Willaim/Soul Vampire in Africa.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 28 2008 02:14 pm   #25Guest
I agree with much of what you said, nmcil, though i don't know if i could have said it so well. A lot of what bothers me about season seven is how Buffy is completely released from her responsibility in the events of season six, particularly with Spike. it is as if, because Spike lost control in Seeing Red and almost did something terrible, all of Buffy's previous actions that were horrible disappeared and the blame lies solely with him. I wish we could have had more scenes of Spike when Buffy is not there during the time they were sleeping together so we could see his emotional state and how he acts and thinks when she isn't there to influence him by making him feel defensive or as if he has to shut up or whatever.

I totally agree with Buffy calling Spike William signifying that she isn't just rejecting the demon Spike, but also who he is completely and the man he sometimes tries to be for her. That is how the writers show she is killing Spike completely. What I don't get is how Buffy could have justified doing it in her mind when she acts as if she's being strong and soft and letting him know the truth gently when calling him William and saying being with him is killing her and she should have rememebered the demon egg stunt was like him was incredibly cruel and could have broken Spike utterly.
Nov 30 2008 01:19 am   #26Spikez_tart
Tara has developed quite nicely as a character - I have to disagree here totally Sosa - Tara never develops as a character, she just gets more screen time.  She might have if her agent could have negotiated that next contract, but as it is, she's a Major Mary Sue.  After the one incident of making demons invisible, which considering that Buffy is running around fighting demons all day long, was incredibly stupid, she never does anything wrong, always has the high moral ground and all the answers and it's just plain tiresome.  She rarely even gets angry, and when she does, it's not at Willow, who deserves it.  I know she's beloved of the fans, but I just don't get it. 

Spike and Dawn scene contrasted to the Gang - I loved the scene where Spike is babysitting for Dawn and the two of them are struggling to keep going, to talk about Buffy without breaking down and just hold on by their fingernails.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the supposedly mature people are cooking up a scheme to raise Buffy from the dead, which on its face, pretty stupid.  And, they know its stupid and dangerous because nobody is willing to tell Giles. 

Buffy's failure to tell her friends the truth - Have to agree with Scarlet.  How is lying going to work out in the long run?  By not telling them the truth, Buffy distorts their friendships and puts all their relationships askew.  What was once based on truth is now based on a web of lies and deceit.  Buffy is always playing a part with them, which must be contributing to her unhappiness.  And, wouldn't finding out right away that you did something wrong be better in the long run than finding out that your friend has been thinking for months that you did her an injury and possibly hating you for it? 

If nothing else, couldn't Buffy go to Giles, who didn't participate in the spell and has major doubts about where Buffy was?  It's possible that he could have talked to the others and it's also possible that he wouldn't have run back to England.  Instead, she snows him as well.  I can see her reasoning, but hiding the truth never worked for her in the past, yet she keeps falling back on it.



 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 30 2008 01:58 am   #27Eowyn315
she never does anything wrong
I have to disagree here - I think Tara was completely wrong about the Willow situation in season six. First, she blinded herself to Willow's increasing strength and hubris, because she believed Willow would never do anything wrong. She let Willow keep on doing what she was doing, which only enabled her and made the problem worse. And by the time Tara DID put her foot down, Willow had gone so far in betraying her that Tara had no choice but to leave - which was absolutely the wrong thing for Willow. Willow needed someone to help her, someone to teach her what magic is all about, how it's supposed to be used, and why what she was doing was wrong. Tara walking away made sense for Tara emotionally, but she's totally leaving Willow in the lurch in terms of getting better.

I'm sure some people will say, "But when she put her foot down, Willow erased her memory," but if she hadn't been such a pushover all the time, maybe Willow would have realized she couldn't magic away the problem. Or instead of fighting about it, maybe she could've approached Willow in a less threatening way that wouldn't bring Willow's hackles up (remember, the only fight they've ever had is about magic, so Tara should have known to tread carefully). Or if she'd told someone else, they could've ganged up on Willow - if they'll have a intervention for Buffy sleeping with Spike, why can't the Scoobies have an intervention for Willow using too much magic? You know Giles would've been there, given the way their conversation goes in "Flooded," and Xander probably would've been on board, considering his doubts about the resurrection spell. Xander's presence pretty much guarantees Anya's, and if anyone had bothered to ask Spike, I'm sure he'd have chimed in as well. Buffy might have been too depressed to care, but on the other hand, maybe she'd have welcomed a chance to tell Willow how much magic had screwed up her life.

Tara walking away left Willow to ignore Tara's advice, and keep on doing what she was doing. It was only because she had a bad scare that she realized she'd gone too far. And then her method of cold turkey quitting magic is clearly just avoidance of the issue - it's not the magic that's the problem, it's Willow. And just like an alcoholic who has a backslide when someone hands them a drink, at the first sign of crisis, Willow immediately reverts back to her old ways. Avoiding magic wasn't solving anything because no one was treating the problem.

And then, arguably, Tara takes Willow back too soon. I say arguably because on the one hand, Tara's death makes it obvious that Willow is NOT better, she's just repressing her issues. But then again, if Tara hadn't died, maybe she could've given Willow the help she's needed all along, and so a future tragic event wouldn't bring out Dark Willow, because Willow would have already overcome that with Tara's help. Tara couldn't have predicted she would die immediately, so maybe her intentions were good here, but we'll never know.

So, no, I would not say that Tara never does anything wrong. In fact, despite several individual moments where she is the truth-sayer or holds the moral high ground, her major arc in season six is her being totally wrong about Willow.

How is lying going to work out in the long run?
I don't think anyone said lying was the right way to handle it (or if they did, I missed it), but it definitely is the way Buffy would approach the situation. It's the way SHE thinks is best. She seems to think that if she just keeps her secret to herself, she can act like everything is fine, and her friends will never need to know, and they won't get hurt. This isn't the first time she's done it, and it won't be the last. An outside observer can see that it's never worked out for her, and it's not likely to work this time, either, but we don't always see the obvious solution when we're at the center of an emotional issue.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 02:59 pm   #28Spikez_tart
E:  I was willing to cut Tara some slack on the Willow thing because Willow kept brain wiping her.  (Why is this such a popular idea with Joss W? Characters on BTVS and Angel are always getting their brains wiped and now in the Dollhouse show, Eliza D is going to have her brain wiped every week.  There must be something Freudian here.)  Not sure if it's Tara's place to correct Willow's bad behavior, but as you say, she blows it.  Still, within her own personality she doesn't really change.  She always knows that what Willow's doing is wrong and that doesn't change.  First, it takes her a while to realize how bad Willow has become then, she just gets tired of putting up with it and hurt that Willow would treat her in such a thoughtless way. 

In Smashed, the group does consider an intervention after Tara leaves.  Buffy pretty much squashes that idea due to the naughty thoughts she's been having about Spike.  She's thinking that the group will be coming down on her next.  They decide they'll keep an eye on her.  Lame.  Then, Buffy goes out and has sex with Spike.

It's the way SHE thinks is best - true and a lesson that Buffy doesn't really learn, although it's hard to see why given the many times that keeping secrets blows up in her face.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 30 2008 03:54 pm   #29sosa lola

Tara never develops as a character

What about her stutter? Her major low-self esteem? Her worship of Willow?

All these are flaws. You don't have to be mean and rude to develop, insecurity and not knowing your worth are flaws that you need to grow out of and Tara finally managed that before she died. When S6 starts, Tara is not stuttering as much and is more comfortable with herself and feels a sense of belonging to the Scoobies, she came a long way. The only flaw she has right now is her way of viewing Willow as perfect. I don't blame her for feeling this way, seeing as Willow was the one who helped her find herself and be confident with who she is, Willow helped Tara grow up.

I agree with Eowyn that Tara failed Willow when she left her. Willow had helped Tara change to the better, but Tara abandoned Willow when she needed her the most. I do cut Tara some slack seeing as Willow had done her so wrong and breaking up with her was what Tara needed.
 

Nov 30 2008 04:55 pm   #30Scarlet Ibis
I agree with Eowyn that Tara failed Willow when she left her. Willow had helped Tara change to the better, but Tara abandoned Willow when she needed her the most.
At that point, Willow refused to listen.  When Tara gave her an ultimatum, told her to curb her enthusiasm on the magic, Willow just tried to brain wipe her--again.  Who's to say Willow wouldn't have done something more extreme if Tara had stayed? 

ETA:  It's kind of funny when you think of it--Willow's brain wiping/brain raping, and then we get Warren's cerebral dampener several eps later.

Tara:  Oh Willow, you keep wiping my memories, but I'll give you just one more chance.  It might make me look like a dumbass trusting you--you know, the whole "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, and fool me a third and fourth time" which is really shame on me--but you clearly need help that I can't possibly give right now, so I'll stay.

Seriously?

Leaving was the best thing Tara could do.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 30 2008 05:44 pm   #31Eowyn315
Not sure if it's Tara's place to correct Willow's bad behavior
I would say it's her place to step in and get Willow to acknowledge there's a problem. They're so fond of the "magic=crack" metaphor in season six - well, if your significant other had a drug problem that was getting out of hand, wouldn't you say something about it? Wouldn't you feel obligated, as someone who knows them well and plays a huge role in their life, to call them on their behavior and insist they get help? And besides obligation, wouldn't you want to do that? Wouldn't you want someone you love to get the care and help they need to get better?

Leaving was the best thing Tara could do.
Uh, I actually said that... "by the time Tara DID put her foot down, Willow had gone so far in betraying her that Tara had no choice but to leave." I also said that it was the best thing for Tara emotionally - but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for Willow. My point was that Tara was wrong to let the problem go so far that her only choice was to walk away. She should have stepped in earlier (and less confrontationally, since that's a sure way to make Willow defensive and uncooperative).

The thing is, Tara ignored the problem for so long - their first fight about magic was back in "Tough Love," remember? That means that Tara had the whole summer to be concerned about Willow's magic, but she clearly has just let Willow increase her power and her hubris completely unchecked. We see clear examples where Tara is concerned about Willow's spells during season six, but she keeps insisting (to herself and to other people) that Willow would never do anything wrong. So yeah, by the time she DOES speak up, she's at ultimatums, which is totally the wrong move with Willow.

Willow hates confrontation, and she hates being told she's wrong. She has done plenty of spells to get what she wants without having to confront other people or even her own emotions. You'd think, as her girlfriend of two years, Tara would know that. You'd think she would realize that an ultimatum is only going to make Willow defensive and look for a way around it. But clearly she didn't, which means Tara's not perfect...
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 08:11 pm   #32sosa lola

Tara: Oh Willow, you keep wiping my memories, but I'll give you just one more chance. It might make me look like a dumbass trusting you--you know, the whole "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, and fool me a third and fourth time" which is really shame on me--but you clearly need help that I can't possibly give right now, so I'll stay. Seriously? Leaving was the best thing Tara could do.

I did say, "I do cut Tara some slack seeing as Willow had done her so wrong and breaking up with her was what Tara needed." While it was the best solution for Tara, it wasn't for Willow.

Willow needed someone's help. Giles and Tara left, knowing that Willow had a problem but preferring to stay away instead of providing her the help she needed. Buffy and Xander are aware of Willow's magic use but are too uncomfortable talking to her seeing as she was just dumped by Tara. Anya was the only one willing to show Willow the error of her actions, but sadly the wedding planning was more important than Willow's problems.


 

Nov 30 2008 08:26 pm   #33Spikez_tart
Not stuttering so often isn't a character improvement.  It takes Tara two years to show any backbone.  She's completely ready to fold when her father comes to get her and it's the intervention of the gang, particularly Spike, that allows her to stay.  She allows Willow to mind suck her at least twice.  Personally, I wouldn't have waited around after the first time. What kind of person goes around sucking people's brains.  A Warren kind of person, that's who.  In fact, knowing that Willow gets herself in situations where hellgods suck your brains would have been enough for me to start packing.  (Olivia was the only really smart one - she sees that Giles is hanging around in places where you can get your heart ripped out and she leaves!  Smart move.)

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 30 2008 11:01 pm   #34Eowyn315
In fact, knowing that Willow gets herself in situations where hellgods suck your brains would have been enough for me to start packing.
There's no way you can blame Willow for Glory brain-sucking Tara. Tara had been around for a year and a half at that point - if she didn't know the dangers of being a Scooby, she must not have been paying attention. And considering Willow was the one who restored Tara's brain, I would think that would only increase her loyalty to Willow.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 01 2008 11:58 am   #35sosa lola

Not stuttering so often isn't a character improvement.

Actually it is, it shows that Tara grew more confident. Being confident is a character improvement.

She's completely ready to fold when her father comes to get her and it's the intervention of the gang, particularly Spike, that allows her to stay.

You know, it takes a while for someone to be more secure... step after a step, we shouldn't expect her to magically change the second she becomes Willow's girlfriend. (It's like Spike's and Willow's character development, they changed gradually, not by one episode, why must we expect Tara to be different?) Besides, at that time Tara thought she was a demon and would have gone with her father to protect the Scoobies as well as her inability to stand up to her father. She was raised to obey him without questions, she was probably abused for eighteen years before she was able to get away and go to college, you can't heal a damaged person at one night. 

She allows Willow to mind suck her at least twice.

Allows her? How did she allow her? Willow had erased her memory without Tara knowing, I'm sure she wouldn't have allowed it if she knew about it.

Personally, I wouldn't have waited around after the first time. What kind of person goes around sucking people's brains.

Someone who wants to avoid heartache and drama. Willow erased the bad memories from Tara's mind so they could be happy again, her intentions weren't really bad, but her actions were. It doesn't make her a villain like Warren who controlled others for his own pleasure. Willow did what she did because she wanted her and Tara to be okay, she's not used to them fighting and she chose the easy way out. It means she's lazy and flawed, but not evil.

(Olivia was the only really smart one - she sees that Giles is hanging around in places where you can get your heart ripped out and she leaves! Smart move.)

It also means that Olivia wasn't in love with Giles. Tara was in love with Willow, Willow made her feel special when no one did, she deserves Tara's love.
 

Dec 01 2008 05:50 pm   #36Scarlet Ibis
Willow erased the bad memories from Tara's mind so they could be happy again, her intentions weren't really bad, but her actions were. It doesn't make her a villain like Warren who controlled others for his own pleasure. Willow did what she did because she wanted her and Tara to be okay, she's not used to them fighting and she chose the easy way out.
Actually, that does make her like Warren.  She didn't put a spell on herself to make her more understanding--she modified Tara's memories to control her.  Tara was angry, and if Willow hadn't did her mind wipe, Tara would have went to bed angry.  Going to bed angry usually means no nookie.  But Willow took away that choice from Tara at least twice, so that Tara would behave and act like she wanted her to--in their relationship as well as the bedroom.  Was she completely mindless like Katrina?  No.  But the bottom line is that both Willow and Warren took away their choices in some shape or form for their own selfish needs.  Tara used the words "violated my mind," so I think that sums it up really.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 01 2008 07:27 pm   #37sosa lola
Actually, that does make her like Warren. She didn't put a spell on herself to make her more understanding--she modified Tara's memories to control her. Tara was angry, and if Willow hadn't did her mind wipe, Tara would have went to bed angry. Going to bed angry usually means no nookie. But Willow took away that choice from Tara at least twice, so that Tara would behave and act like she wanted her to--in their relationship as well as the bedroom. Was she completely mindless like Katrina? No. But the bottom line is that both Willow and Warren took away their choices in some shape or form for their own selfish needs. Tara used the words "violated my mind," so I think that sums it up really.

I agree that Willow's actions are awful and selfish. I just don't see them comparable to Warren's. I don't think Willow erased the memory of the fight so she could have sex with Tara. I think she did it to avoid the tension between them and choose the easy way out of a fight. While it is wrong and Tara has every right to be upset, I think Willow's motives aren't as sick as Warren's who made Katrina a sex slave. Willow didn't want Tara to be a sex slave, she just wanted their fight to be over.
Dec 01 2008 11:51 pm   #38Eowyn315
Not stuttering so often isn't a character improvement.
Actually it is, it shows that Tara grew more confident. Being confident is a character improvement.

It's not just the stuttering - it's Tara's whole personality that blossoms. She changes her hairstyle, her clothes, she's less shy, more outspoken with the Scoobies, she actually has friends, whereas before she hung out with people who teased her and made her feel bad about herself, and she stutters less. It's the whole theme of "Under Your Spell" - Willow brought her out of her shell and gave her the confidence to be herself.

I don't think Willow erased the memory of the fight so she could have sex with Tara. I think she did it to avoid the tension between them and choose the easy way out of a fight.
Agreed. Willow doesn't use magic just to have sex - she does it to avoid conflict. She erases Tara's memory because she wants a peaceful, happy relationship. Look at how freaked out she got the one time they actually did fight in "Tough Love." She completely can't handle it, so she makes it like it never happened. I don't think she's as intentionally evil as Warren, but as a character flaw, it's a pretty big one.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 02 2008 12:05 am   #39Scarlet Ibis
I don't think Willow erased the memory of the fight so she could have sex with Tara.
I don't either, but it factors into it by default.  Tara wouldn't have been so friendly had she still been pissed off, I'd think.

ETA:  I imagine if that'd been Spike who did that to Buffy, the perception of how good or bad doing that is would be different.  I don't think people would accuse him of just being "lazy" in the relationship.

ETAA:  A friend of mine compared what Willow did to date rape--the amnesiac quality and the sex.  I'm inclined to agree.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 02 2008 02:51 am   #40RedRobin
About Willow brainwashing Tara...it seems to me like a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" scenario.

If instead of making Katrina into a mindless sex slave, what if Warren had instead erased all her memories so that she still thought they were dating? IMO Warren still seemed to honestly have feelings for Katrina, and only made her his sex slave when she refused.

It mirrors Tara, because of the fact that they're both loosing a part of their free will. Tara chose to be angry at Willow; Willow erased that decision. Sure, the sex was consentual, but Willow knew Tara probably wouldn't have wanted it if she was angry. Either way, both partners are robbed of their choices in the cases.
Dec 02 2008 11:13 am   #41sosa lola
I'll keep my thoughts about Warren until we reach Dead Things. Last I remember, he did have feelings for Katrina and seemed to resepct her.

I imagine if that'd been Spike who did that to Buffy, the perception of how good or bad doing that is would be different. I don't think people would accuse him of just being "lazy" in the relationship.

If Spike had been in a relationship with Buffy (one like Tara and Willow) and used magic to avoid conflict, I'll view him like Willow. Someone who wants the easy way out. To me, men and women are equal in the relationship department, but I understand where you're coming from. It reminds me of a discussion I had with someone once about Faith's forcing herself on Xander in Consequences and how it appeared like rape before Faith decided to strangle him. The guy I was discussing that with wouldn't believe that a woman can rape a man, which is norrow-minded, especially considering that Faith is far stronger than Xander. Not to mention that a woman can still rape a man without using physical strength.
Dec 07 2008 12:35 am   #42Spikez_tart
The Tart holds up her hands in defeat.  I accept that you love Tara and I think she's a big Mary Sue.

I don't think she's (Willow) as intentionally evil as Warren, but as a character flaw, it's a pretty big one.  There's no real difference between Willow and Warren in this act.  They both want to have their own way.  They both want a relationship without working out the conflicts.  In a way what Willow did was worse, considering that Tara had her mind wiped by Glory.  What Willow did wasn't just a character flaw, it was evil and intentional.  Who would even think of doing something like that to someone? 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 07 2008 10:00 am   #43sosa lola
They both want a relationship without working out the conflicts.

Did Warren really want a relationship with Katrina? It seemed he wanted a sex slave, and probably would have passed her to Jonathan and Andrew. That's not what Willow wanted, she just wanted their fight to be over. So, Willow comes out far less evil than Warren in my book.

In a way what Willow did was worse, considering that Tara had her mind wiped by Glory.

I don't think it came to her mind that she was doing what Glory did. Glory took away Tara's sanity, Willow only erased  the fight they had, so she won't deal with it. Don't we all wish our partners would forget the fight we had so we'd go back to being happy and cuddly? It's more of a human flaw than evil, it's Willow being lazy.
Dec 07 2008 10:25 am   #44Scarlet Ibis
It seemed he wanted a sex slave, and probably would have passed her to Jonathan and Andrew.
No, he wouldn't have.  Just like he wasn't going to give them a turn with those magical orbs.

Don't we all wish our partners would forget the fight we had so we'd go back to being happy and cuddly?
No--that sounds like being high on drugs--and not the fun kind, cause with drugs like that?  You forget what had occurred.  I like my memories--good and bad.  At least that way, I'd be less likely to cock up with the bad mistakes ever again.  And making her happy and cuddly when she was angry goes right back to the "Willow gets to have her naughty way with Tara that night as opposed to not if Tara had been angry" point again.  Willow and Warren on those two instances?  Variations of the same.  If Warren had had the knowledge of the spell that Willow does as opposed to creating something on his own for mind control, I'm sure he would have.  When he finally gets her alone in the room away from the other guys, the first thing he does is kiss her.  If he just wanted to bang her, he would have tossed her down and done it, or commanded her to immediately give him head or something.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 07 2008 02:18 pm   #45sosa lola
I'll keep my thoughts about Willow and Warren being the same until I see Dead Things. Because I don't really remember it that well. I still think Willow's actions are less extreme than Warren's, because Willow's intentions weren't like Warren. From what I've seen, Willow did it to skip the fight, not to have sex.
Dec 09 2008 03:27 am   #46Spikez_tart
She allows Willow to mind suck her at least twice.  Allows her? How did she allow her? Willow had erased her memory without Tara knowing, I'm sure she wouldn't have allowed it if she knew about it.  Sorry I missed this one, S.  I meant allowed in the sense of Tara let Willow get away with it and stayed around when she knew that Willow really couldn't be trusted.  If Willow had hit her on the head with a stick, would you expect Tara not to pack her bags and leave immediately and permanently?  Yet what Willow does is so much worse than physical violence.  A bruise or a broken bone will heal, but there's no cure for that hole in your brain.  And the fact that Willow has all these good excuses - I didn't want to fight anymore, I just want things to be lovey dovey again, is just sickening. 

It also means that Olivia wasn't in love with Giles. - no, I don't think she was, but since she was featured in Giles' dream in Restless in a large way and she was pushing an empty baby carriage, the possibility of a deeper relationship was there.  I think she decided that it was too dangerous and scary to be in love with Giles.

Don't we all wish our partners would forget the fight we had so we'd go back to being happy and cuddly? - Yes, but two people being close and/or living together are going to rub each other the wrong way once in a while, unless one of them is a total doormat.  Why is Willow so afraid of a little argument? 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 09 2008 03:41 am   #47Scarlet Ibis
Total tangent, but since it was mentioned--

It also means that Olivia wasn't in love with Giles.
Or hey, maybe Giles wasn't in love with her.  At least she came to visit him.  Just saying.  Or, maybe Anya was right--they were orgasm buddies.  Giles clearly hadn't had a little touch (other than his own, presumably) in quite awhile.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 09 2008 11:23 am   #48sosa lola
, I don't think she was, but since she was featured in Giles' dream in Restless in a large way and she was pushing an empty baby carriage, the possibility of a deeper relationship was there.

I think it was more about Giles saying goodbye to normal life and choosing Buffy and duty instead. I don't think it means that Giles has deep feelings for her.

Yes, but two people being close and/or living together are going to rub each other the wrong way once in a while, unless one of them is a total doormat. Why is Willow so afraid of a little argument?

Witness Willow's reaction to her and Tara's first fight in S5, depressed and grumpy, she's not used to fighting with her. She wants it all to go easy, no fights and heartache. It's what makes their realtionship less healthy because they react extremely to small fights. Willow is used to love, happiness and giggles with Tara, she's her safe place, so the fight was an unexpected turn of events for her. It scared her, maybe she thought it meant break up. Notice how she rarely had a fight with Oz. I guess she thought that two people in love fighting is a very bad sign, never accured to her that it's normal.

Or hey, maybe Giles wasn't in love with her.

Yes. Bottom line is you can't compare them to Tara and Willow who are in love and would sacrifice themselves for the other.
Dec 11 2008 04:35 am   #49Spikez_tart
Or hey, maybe Giles wasn't in love with her.  At least she came to visit him. - I don't think he was, but they never get the chance to have a relationship.  Still, sad for Giles. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?