BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

After Life: Episode Discussion

Nov 27 2008 01:26 am   #1sosa lola

- Willow is trying to reassure herself that Buffy is home and safe and feels offended at the mere suggestion that what they had done was a mistake and the idea of Buffy being broken.

- For a fifteen year old, always regarded as a child, Dawn did a wonderful job taking care of Buffy in the beginning of the episode.

- DAWN: Yeah, well, it seemed to make the most sense. No one was using it, and it's the biggest. But, you know, now that you're here, we'll have to figure out something to do.

Does she mean Tara and Willow moving out? I have to say it was a good move that they stuck around, because Buffy can't handle things by herself at this state. I think Tara and Willow's stay helped Buffy in a lot of ways, for example, they helped with house-work as well as looking after Dawn when Buffy went to patrol.

- Good thing that Spike realized it was Buffy, it'll be weird if he kept thinking she was the bot after just seeing her destroyed out there.

- SPIKE: I'm ... what did you do?
DAWN: Me? Nothing.

Poor Dawn, everybody blames her when something odd happens. Lol

- I can't get enough of the family vibe surrounding Spike, Dawn and Buffy. Sadly, it'll only last for this episode.

- LOL at Spike's expression when the Scoobies get inside.

- Wow, the Scoobies are annoying with all these questions. I think it's more guilt and helplessness speaking than anything.

- About Xander's scene with Spike outside Buffy's house. Here's a guy's opinion about the subject which gives an insight to how guys behave and explains Xander's attitude much better than us girls do. :P

"Here's a whacky thought -- it wasn't even a rude statement. It's precisely *because* the gang worked with Spike through the summer that Xander would have felt comfortable making such a shot without it being "personal". It is part of how guys behave, after all -- or at least American guys. Watch, y'know, *any* R-rated comedy *ever*.

When they were all in the house, Xander (or anybody else) had no issue with Spike being there. In the scene itself, Spike does a good job of concealing his emotion, so Xander, coming towards him, doesn't see that he's been crying. What we have is Spike standing near the tree, his customary stalking spot, when he is clearly welcome both in the house and with the group. THAT is the context of the remark about his "whole obsession" -- "what are you doing over there?"

This is only *confirmed* by how immediately abashed Xander is when he sees Spike's real reaction to not having been told. Or do we think it was simply the Power of the Cheekbones that rendered Xander helpless to do anything but apologize? The actual comment was no more horribly insulting than Spike's "glorified bricklayer" comment to Xander in "The Gift" or his "cuppa tea" bit to Giles in "Bargaining"," said by kingofCertains.

- Willow does think that something went wrong, because if everything was fine wouldn't Buffy be happier about getting out of a hell dimension?  Obviously, she would.

- Tara's theory about them expecting the spell the fails says a lot about how the Scoobies were behaving. Probably that's why they didn't bother to get Buffy's coffin out. They're also naive to think that Buffy would be jumping with happiness because she's alive again –although I see their point about Buffy being happy she's out of hell- and Anya finally shows the wisdom of being the oldest Scooby when she sarcastically remarks that it won't take Buffy a week to get better, it'll take a lot more.

- It was creepy when Buffy appeared to Willow and Tara at night, it's obvious the demon possessing her was talking about Willow killing the deer.

- Anya cutting her face with a knife is the most scary thing that EVER happened in the history of the show. The only scary bit that had me cover my eyes with fear.

- ANYA: I think we shouldn't've brought Buffy back. I knew it was going to end badly. I should've said something.

Sadly, you were busy with not caring and just following Xander's lead blindly.

- It's weird that I rarely read about Anya being too blunt in fanfic. Fans either write her as money loving, bunny hating, Xander obsession and insightful at times, but rarely write her as tactless. Anya always made rude remarks, even when she wasn't being her innocent self. Like when Buffy shows up later, Anya knows that her comments are tactless and yet she keeps saying them. I was waiting for Xander to tell her off, but he never did, thankfully Willow gave her angry stares that shut her up. I love Anya, and ENJOY when she's being insensitive to others, but not in this scene.

- WILLOW: You are. And Buffy, we're, we're so glad.
XANDER: Yeah. This thing, this haunting thing, we'll fix it, and then we'll still have you back, which is ... it's so important.
WILLOW: Yes.
TARA: It's wonderful.

Poor Willow, Xander and Tara trying so hard to make Buffy feel welcomed.

- I love that they decided to have Dawn with them for research instead of leaving her at Janice's or having Spike baby-sit her.

- It was a nice gesture from Xander and Anya offering to go patrolling with Buffy, much better than when they had left her run off alone in the earlier episode. It's also nice of them to respect her wishes and let her go patrolling by herself.

- It's sweet that Buffy went to Spike. I guess since Giles isn't around, Spike is the second best. He seemed to be the only one able to reach her when they were alone, he was the only one who understands what's it like to be back from the dead, and he's not too pushy trying to get her to feel better.

- Xander already had doubts about Willow's spell, those doubts increased when Willow acted avoid-y on him, they kept increasing when Spike told him that Willow knew that there was a chance something wrong would happen, and they increased to their fullness when the consequences of their magic appeared –just as Spike said. So, Xander tells Tara about his worries.

- Tara's reaction shows why she went along with the whole bringing Buffy back spell, she trusts Willow, idolizes her, thinks she doesn't do wrong. She's so loyal to Willow that it blinds her from seeing the truth.

- DAWN: Um, but, if we made the demon, how come we can't see it?

You didn't make the demon, Dawn. The idiot foursome did.

- In the end, Tara finally realizes that Willow is going through major scary developments when they were doing that spell in the Magic Box.

- Nice to see Buffy being responsible big sis and making Dawn lunch :)

- DAWN: Are you okay?
BUFFY: I'm going to start charging money for every person that asks me that.
DAWN: Everyone's been doing that, huh?
BUFFY: A little bit.
DAWN: It's because they care about you a lot. When you were gone ... it was bad when you were gone. But it'll be better now. Now that they can see you being happy. (pause) That's all they want

Do you think that Buffy would have told her friends the truth if this exchange didn't happen?

- Nice of Xander to offer Buffy help again when he asked her to pick Dawn up to school. Again, Buffy brushes his help away. Does that mean that her friends do offer to help but she doesn't let them? Like Tara and Willow suggesting that they should work to help with the bills, but Buffy refuses?

- How hard it was on Buffy to lie about where she was and that she was grateful she was back just to make her friends feel better and happy :(

- Poor Buffy couldn't handle all that hell talk, when Spike mentioned that she was in hell, she just snapped… she told him the truth because she knew she wouldn't hurt him with it and she needed to let it out. She was tired of lying to everybody, at least now one person knows the truth.
 

Nov 28 2008 02:10 am   #2Eowyn315
DAWN: Yeah, well, it seemed to make the most sense. No one was using it, and it's the biggest. But, you know, now that you're here, we'll have to figure out something to do. Does she mean Tara and Willow moving out?
Not sure... maybe. What else could she be suggesting? Swapping rooms doesn't make a whole lot of sense - all of Buffy's stuff is still in her old room, so she could just move back in like nothing had changed. Plus, even though it might be more fair - it's Buffy's house, so she should get the biggest room - since Willow and Tara are sharing, it would make the most sense for them to share the biggest room. Maybe Dawn figured that since Buffy was back, Willow and Tara didn't need to stay anymore, although I agree with you, it was a good thing that they did.

Good thing that Spike realized it was Buffy, it'll be weird if he kept thinking she was the bot after just seeing her destroyed out there.
Yeah... I'll give him a little slack, since he thinks Buffy's dead, so the bot is probably the first logical conclusion, but shouldn't he be able to smell that she's human? And also hear her heartbeat? The way he says, "Didn't think she'd patch up so..." makes it sound like he thinks Dawn picked up the pieces and put the bot back together... which seems a little silly. Even Willow couldn't have done it that quickly.

Poor Dawn, everybody blames her when something odd happens.
Well, also consider that Dawn was the one who tried to resurrect Joyce - with Spike's help - so I don't blame Spike for thinking she might have done the same to Buffy.

What we have is Spike standing near the tree, his customary stalking spot, when he is clearly welcome both in the house and with the group. THAT is the context of the remark about his "whole obsession" -- "what are you doing over there?"
That's a really good point, and not a perspective I'd considered before. It does make sense, and I could see how it might look like Spike was reverting to his old habits, prompting Xander to make that remark. From their perspective, there was no reason for Spike to leave the house as soon as they got there and lurk outside. They also don't realize that he's crying, not lurking.

Tara's theory about them expecting the spell the fails says a lot about how the Scoobies were behaving.
The thing I find interesting is that Willow agrees with it, which goes back to the discussion of whether Willow expected anything to go wrong. Maybe she's only saying that because she suspects something is wrong after the fact, but then again, if that was the case, why did they approach the spell as though they were going to fail?

It's weird that I rarely read about Anya being too blunt in fanfic. Fans either write her as money loving, bunny hating, Xander obsession and insightful at times, but rarely write her as tactless.
I've read waaay too many fics where Anya can talk about nothing but orgasms. It's like people think if Anya talks about orgasms, they've nailed her character. Also, I find that few writers are able to capture her way of speaking. It usually sounds too stilted or so literal it's ridiculous.

Tara's reaction shows why she went along with the whole bringing Buffy back spell, she trusts Willow, idolizes her, thinks she doesn't do wrong.
Hmm... I see that, but on the other hand, I don't think she's wrong about the answer to Xander's question. I really don't think that Willow expected something like this to happen. I think it's more likely that she thought she could pull this off without consequences rather than expected there would be consequences and just didn't tell anybody. That tends to be Willow's problem - she never gets that magic has consequences, not that she knows something bad will happen and does it anyway.

Do you think that Buffy would have told her friends the truth if this exchange didn't happen?
Hmm, I don't know. On the one hand, I think it's pretty obvious that they (particularly Willow) wanted her to be happy and grateful for what they did. But then again, considering what Buffy's going through, I wouldn't blame her if she didn't pick up on that, and needed Dawn to point it out to her. If Dawn hadn't said something, I don't think she'd have said she was in heaven right away. She probably just wouldn't have said anything, and the Scoobies would just get more and more antsy that she hadn't said thank you or seemed happy, and it probably would've come out eventually, most likely because Willow would confront Buffy about why she's not happy.

Does that mean that her friends do offer to help but she doesn't let them? Like Tara and Willow suggesting that they should work to help with the bills, but Buffy refuses?
Doubtful about the bills... I mean, if they took the time to sit her down and explain exactly how in debt she was in "Flooded," wouldn't that have been a great time to bring up, "Hey, we could pay rent or something"? Even if they'd already suggested it and gotten turned down, I think that would be a good time to ask again, now that Buffy realizes how much trouble she's in. But the focus is mainly on Buffy dealing with the mess, and even though she asks for suggestions, the only person to offer one is Anya.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 28 2008 06:47 am   #3Scarlet Ibis
The way he says, "Didn't think she'd patch up so..." makes it sound like he thinks Dawn picked up the pieces and put the bot back together... which seems a little silly. Even Willow couldn't have done it that quickly.
The thought of Buffy being alive and well was a much too fantastical a concept, so if his senses did pick up on it as soon as they were at the head of the stairs, he more than likely ignored it because of that, and also, more than likely because he was distracted by being so furious at Dawn for running off.

This is only *confirmed* by how immediately abashed Xander is when he sees Spike's real reaction to not having been told. Or do we think it was simply the Power of the Cheekbones that rendered Xander helpless to do anything but apologize? The actual comment was no more horribly insulting than Spike's "glorified bricklayer" comment to Xander in "The Gift" or his "cuppa tea" bit to Giles in "Bargaining"," said by kingofCertains.
That perspective was introduced awhile ago by lostboy somewhere...and I realize that Xander didn't know Spike was upset, though the remark itself seemed inappropriate (to me) regardless.  I think the apology was more for Xander (and the others) not telling Spike about the ressurection as opposed to his comment, though.

I love that they decided to have Dawn with them for research instead of leaving her at Janice's or having Spike baby-sit her.
Well, I think that was more filler on the writer's part, somehow.  Giles wasn't there, and they couldn't have Spike cause he was all pissed off.  The demon entity or whatever never possesses Willow or Tara--could be because of their witchy powers or whatever, but at any rate, they couldn't keep having the demon switch back and forth between Anya and Xander.  Well they could, but it would have been lame.

- Nice to see Buffy being responsible big sis and making Dawn lunch :)
Yeah...isn't Dawn old enough to make her own lunch?  No wonder I kept thinking she was twelve :P

Do you think that Buffy would have told her friends the truth if this exchange didn't happen?
I don't think so.  She knew that telling them would leave them leaden with guilt, and Buffy doesn't enjoy rocking the boat for her friends for whatever reason.

Again, Buffy brushes his help away. Does that mean that her friends do offer to help but she doesn't let them? Like Tara and Willow suggesting that they should work to help with the bills, but Buffy refuses?
I doubt it, but only because she doesn't refuse Giles' check later.  I don't think Willow and Tara offered.  I mean, Tara leaves really soon, but as we'll see in "Flooded," like they give her a list of things she has to do...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 28 2008 02:26 pm   #4sosa lola

Maybe Dawn figured that since Buffy was back, Willow and Tara didn't need to stay anymore, although I agree with you, it was a good thing that they did.

Yeah, I mean they may not bring Buffy money, but I can see them helping a lot in the house. They clean and do house chores and take care of Dawn. And company is always a nice thing.

The way he says, "Didn't think she'd patch up so..." makes it sound like he thinks Dawn picked up the pieces and put the bot back together... which seems a little silly. Even Willow couldn't have done it that quickly.

He did say in Bargaining 2 that Willow won't be able to put her back together.

The thing I find interesting is that Willow agrees with it, which goes back to the discussion of whether Willow expected anything to go wrong.

I think by trying to make others believe that nothing will go wrong, Willow came to believe it as well. Just like she made herself believe that Buffy was in hell. Seeing how Buffy came back, all miserable and spacey, she figured that something must have gone wrong.

I've read waaay too many fics where Anya can talk about nothing but orgasms. It's like people think if Anya talks about orgasms, they've nailed her character. Also, I find that few writers are able to capture her way of speaking. It usually sounds too stilted or so literal it's ridiculous.

Anya is such a hard character to write, which is why I don't write her a lot. But if I did, I'll try my best to make her more than just an orgasm loving one dimensional character.

most likely because Willow would confront Buffy about why she's not happy.

I agree. If Buffy hadn't said she was in hell, Willow would have asked some questions.

That perspective was introduced awhile ago by lostboy somewhere...

I think it helps having guys in discussions. We, girls, tend to feel more sensitive about some issues while to guys they're just a normal-guy-thing. Sometimes in slash fics, you see Xander and Spike being more sensitive toward each other once they're in a relationship... but in reality, they'll probably still throw a few insults now and then, it's how guys behave, I guess. You won't believe the horrible things I've heard my brother calling his best buddy on the phone. I was like "Do you guys even like each other?" LOL

I think the apology was more for Xander (and the others) not telling Spike about the ressurection as opposed to his comment, though.

I agree. I don't think he cared much about the "obsession" comment, wasn't a big deal, he probably forgot all about it when Spike mentioned how upset he was they didn't tell him about the spell.

Well, I think that was more filler on the writer's part, somehow.

I don't think the Scoobies really care about having Dawn in Scooby meetings. From the episode, only Anya seemed to refer to Dawn as a child, something she must have learned from those human behavior books she has. About chocolate-shake being more appropriate for kids than coffee... and Dawn having small bones (which is weird because Dawn is probably as tall as Willow).

The others treat her like a younger sister but not a baby.

Yeah...isn't Dawn old enough to make her own lunch? No wonder I kept thinking she was twelve :P

I don't think Dawn needs to make herself lunch. She can buy lunch from the cafeteria. It was just a nice maternal gesture from Buffy.

She knew that telling them would leave them leaden with guilt, and Buffy doesn't enjoy rocking the boat for her friends for whatever reason.

Because she loves them :) She thinks they did it because they thought she was in hell and they were trying to save her, she couldn't crush them by telling them she was actually in heaven.

Doubtful about the bills... I mean, if they took the time to sit her down and explain exactly how in debt she was in "Flooded," wouldn't that have been a great time to bring up, "Hey, we could pay rent or something"?

I doubt it, but only because she doesn't refuse Giles' check later. I don't think Willow and Tara offered. I mean, Tara leaves really soon, but as we'll see in "Flooded," like they give her a list of things she has to do...


Perhaps not the bills then. But maybe they offer her help with other stuff, like doing laundry and cooking breakfast and so on, and Buffy refuses. 

 

Nov 28 2008 08:24 pm   #5Eowyn315
The thought of Buffy being alive and well was a much too fantastical a concept, so if his senses did pick up on it as soon as they were at the head of the stairs, he more than likely ignored it because of that, and also, more than likely because he was distracted by being so furious at Dawn for running off.
I think the bot being repaired that quickly (or at all) was an equally fantastic concept, so I don't think he would've ignored his senses if they were telling him Buffy was human. Most likely, the writers forgot he had supernatural senses (wouldn't be the first time). If all he's relying on is his sight, then yeah, he's used to seeing the bot, so that's the first thing he would think of.

And company is always a nice thing.
True. I can only imagine how much more withdrawn Buffy would have been if she didn't have her friends living in her house, where she couldn't escape them.

We, girls, tend to feel more sensitive about some issues while to guys they're just a normal-guy-thing.
I also think we girls tend to be more defensive of Spike, to the extent that we ignore his faults or place more blame on other characters than they deserve.

From the episode, only Anya seemed to refer to Dawn as a child, something she must have learned from those human behavior books she has.
Buffy does, too, in the next episode. Dawn tries to help, and Buffy says, "You do research now? Want a cappuccino and a pack of cigarettes to go with it?" which seems a little ridiculous, considering what Buffy was doing at that age.

She can buy lunch from the cafeteria.
Considering their financial situation, it's cheaper to pack your lunch, so Dawn should probably be doing that to save money, rather than spending it on buying lunch.

But maybe they offer her help with other stuff, like doing laundry and cooking breakfast and so on, and Buffy refuses.
We don't know that Buffy refuses. Didn't you mention earlier that they were probably a help around the house doing chores? Willow and Tara are making breakfast (though Dawn refuses to eat) in "Flooded," one of them must have made dinner in "Life Serial," and Willow mentions "a whole duet about dish-washing" in OMWF, so presumably they were doing them at the time. Even after she's moved out, Tara makes pancakes in "Wrecked," since no one else is home. Willow also makes breakfast in "Gone," but that's guilt cooking, so I'm not sure if it counts.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 28 2008 08:59 pm   #6sosa lola
We don't know that Buffy refuses. Didn't you mention earlier that they were probably a help around the house doing chores?

I guess she only refuses when she wants to take care of things herself? Like when Xander and Anya offer to patrol with her, she wanted to be alone, that's why she said no. I can see them suggesting it again and she'd still say no, because then she won't be able to visit Spike and have hot sex :D

Xander here offers to take Dawn to school and she says no, but later we see him does that, so I guess she lets her friends help when she knows she can't handle it herself.
Nov 28 2008 10:40 pm   #7Eowyn315
I think the patrol is probably in a separate category than the rest of the chores, since that's a Slayer duty, as opposed to a care-taking duty. Buffy has been patrolling alone now for a whole year, so it's no surprise that even now she'd want to do it alone. But more than that, I think she needs alone time away from the Scoobies, and patrol is her solace, the one place she doesn't have to put on a performance. She can slay vampires with passion, or she can go through the motions - the vampires are still just as dead. Plus, remember that her slaying instinct is the first thing that came back to her after her resurrection, so it's probably the thing she feels most comfortable doing.

I think it's more that she's rejecting their company on patrol, rather than rejecting their help. She doesn't need their help on patrol, and they know that. They basically just want to hang out and make sure she's okay, which is the last thing she wants to pretend to be. When it comes to normal things, the everyday stuff, she seems willing to accept help, and in some cases even happy to foist off her duties on other people (like leaving Giles to discipline Dawn).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 03:05 pm   #8Spikez_tart
I think the bot being repaired that quickly (or at all) was an equally fantastic concept  Maybe Spike assumes Willow uses magic to fix the bot.  That would be the only way they could get it back together. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 30 2008 05:10 pm   #9Scarlet Ibis
I think the bot being repaired that quickly (or at all) was an equally fantastic concept Maybe Spike assumes Willow uses magic to fix the bot.
I agree--at that point, Spike could probably assume that Willow's capabilities would be more capable of that than a resurrection.  Also, Spike spent a lot of time forcibly trying to not look at the bot, so that probably contributed to him not noticing it was Buffy.  The Bot probably emitted heat, and had the sound of a heartbeat to throw off vampires.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 30 2008 08:42 pm   #10Eowyn315
The Bot probably emitted heat, and had the sound of a heartbeat to throw off vampires.
Well, if the bot had those features, it would've been because Spike requested them so that the bot would feel more Buffy-like, since remember the bot was built for Spike, not to fool other vampires. It seems like we've discussed before how unsatisfying the Buffybot must have been for Spike, considering it's a robot and not a real person, and no one's ever suggested that the bot had those features to seem more human. There's really no evidence either way, since it's not mentioned as part of her features.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 08:49 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis
There's really no evidence either way, since it's not mentioned as part of her features
Maybe not the heartbeat thing, but any machine that is turned on will emit heat--how much depends on the size and power of it. 

Also, I think that...if Warren was trying to create the perfect girlfriend/the perfect sex bot, heat (and probably wetness, I'm willing to bet) would most certainly be a factor, unless he was a necrophiliac (which he wasn't).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 02 2008 06:10 am   #12nmcil

How much do you think this reflects Spike's character and love of Buffy?  If she had come back really wrong and obviously emotionally traumatized, would he have tried to keep Buffy alive instead of letting her find peace again?  My take on his character is that he would have wanted her to find an end to her suffering.  I don't mean her level of emotional trauma that she experienced in season six, but something that was obvious.  I guess what I mean is something like when your loved ones have suffered from a horrendous illness - I think most of us would want people we love to find peace and stop the suffering;  have it all over with -

SPIKE: Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.
XANDER: What are you talking about? Willow wouldn't do that.
SPIKE: (sarcastic) Oh. Is that right.
XANDER: Look. You're just covering. Don't tell me you're not happy. (Spike scoffs) Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence.

Spike gives Xander a "you just don't get it" scowl, turns and walks off.

SPIKE: (as he walks) That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 04 2008 12:43 pm   #13Spikez_tart

Spike gives Xander a "you just don't get it" scowl, turns and walks off. - I've always wondered about that look.  This is a good explanation.  Shouldn't Spike be happy, but obviously he isn't, at least not totally, and neither are any of the rest of them.

Demon shows itself in two ways - the first time we see the demon, it looks like Buffy, but when Willow and Tara run into her room, Buffy is asleep.  In all other instances, the demon takes over a live body.  Willow explains the Buffy incident as the demon making a copy.  It doesn't make sense that the demon would use two different ways of manifesting itself, unless there's something very different about Buffy.  As in, she's dead or an angel.  I think Buffy is a sort of angel.  1 - her clothes change from the black funeral dress to a white (pure) shirt.  2.  On her first visit to the cemetery, there's a short shot of her walking by a large angel statue, she seems to almost melt into the statue.  There's nothing else in the shot.

You're tainted - The demon, while in Buffy's copy, says they're all tainted or stained and talks obscurely about the deer sacrifice.  Could this be the reason that all the people  involved in the spell end up badly by season's end?  Also, could the fact that Willow used Bambi as the sacrifice be the indirect cause of Tara's death - a baby deer does not sufficiently balance out a human being, especially a superbeing like Buffy, and another death is required to balance things out.

Buffy's lie - Buffy doesn't just say thanks for rescuing me, she goes on to tell a big whopper about being in hell and insinuates its too horrible to talk about etc.  She's quite the lying master, but then has to leave the room and immediately spills the truth to Spike. 

I can be alone with you here - I interpret this to mean that Buffy feels comfortable with Spike, not that she wishes he'd get lost.  She shows that she trusts him by telling him the truth.

Spike's boots - show just how unhappy he's been.  He isn't even taking care of his boots.  Yeah, I know that Spike doesn't care about that stuff much or he is showing off that he doesn't care, but they seem a little scruffier than usual.


 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 04 2008 03:53 pm   #14Scarlet Ibis
I think Buffy is a sort of angel.
Nah--that shot was just to foreshadow the fact she was in heaven.  If she'd somehow become part angel, they would have mentioned it by now.

another death is required to balance things out.
True, and Tara's death made sense since Willow is the one who performs the spell (there was talk of the cutting back and forth from Buffy lying prone on the ground and Tara dead in Willow's arms).  But then we get season seven, so apparently, Tara kicking the can wasn't enough of a balance either :P

I can be alone with you here - I interpret this to mean that Buffy feels comfortable with Spike, not that she wishes he'd get lost. She shows that she trusts him by telling him the truth.
When this first aired, and for some time after, I always saw it is...Spike's not real/important, so what difference does it make if he's there or not.  But when she says that, he doesn't seem put off by it.  I don't know if she notices he can't leave cause the sun's too high, or if she just doesn't want him to, or is truly indifferent by his presence.  The only person she can tell the truth to is a soulless someone--a soulless being for all intents and purposes, she doesn't view as real.  There has to be something to that.  (It's not because he didn't participate in the spell, cause then, she could have told Angel, and there's no indication she did, Dawn or Giles) But also, that aside, it's possible they shared a conversation along those lines the other night about why she visited him.  Spike was quiet and calm and not really...in her face about helping her get better like her friends, or hellbent on wanting her to be cheerful.  She sought him out.  Actually, I think it's a bit of both of those.

Spike's boots - show just how unhappy he's been. He isn't even taking care of his boots.
I don't know--his boots were pretty crappy in FFL.  I think they're just the same boots, but clearly more run down by time.  There's a metaphor in that though ;)

ETA:

"Buffy doesn't just say thanks for rescuing me, she goes on to tell a big whopper about being in hell and insinuates its too horrible to talk about etc."

Agree.  But maybe she was just trying to move on from it?  Go on as normal (which is a stupid notion, but this isn't the season of bright ideas, after all).  Hard to be all normal and fine if your friends are full of the guilt.  If she told Giles, he'd more than likely have reprimanded everyone.  But then, it's not like she couldn't have made him promise not to tell, like she did with Dawn, so I still don't get why not spill to him.  He could have helped her.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 04 2008 07:31 pm   #15Eowyn315
the first time we see the demon, it looks like Buffy, but when Willow and Tara run into her room, Buffy is asleep. In all other instances, the demon takes over a live body.
The demon also manifests by changing all the pictures in Buffy's room to dead people. It's also seen as a lump in the wall or floor as it moves around, so technically, it manifests in several ways, most of which are unrelated to Buffy, so I don't think it's an indication of anything. But if you really want a reason why the demon only takes on Buffy's form and no one else's, I'd say it's probably because it is linked to Buffy (her resurrection created it, and her death makes it permanent), not because she's actually an angel or anything like that (which, as Scarlet points out, there was no evidence of).

Could this be the reason that all the people involved in the spell end up badly by season's end?
No. Things go badly for everyone involved in the spell because they're the main characters and this is Buffy. Bad things happen to them all the time; it's not because they're "tainted" in every season. Plus, things end up pretty shitty for Buffy and Spike this season, too, and they weren't the ones doing the spell.

Also, could the fact that Willow used Bambi as the sacrifice be the indirect cause of Tara's death
Doubtful... if the sacrifice hadn't been good enough, the spell probably just wouldn't have worked. Why on earth would a spell work with insufficient ingredients, and then several months later, take the final sacrifice that was needed? I think you're trying to make connections to things that in the Buffyverse are just coincidences.

Buffy doesn't just say thanks for rescuing me, she goes on to tell a big whopper about being in hell and insinuates its too horrible to talk about etc.
She told them what they wanted to hear. They wanted to believe they'd done a good thing, so she had to admit she was somewhere awful and that being alive is better than that. Insinuating she doesn't want to talk about it is pretty smart, as it prevents them from asking questions, which would only lead to more lies. It's one thing to say "I was in hell," but it'd be a lot more difficult if Buffy had to keep all the details straight as she's making stuff up about what hell was like.

But then we get season seven, so apparently, Tara kicking the can wasn't enough of a balance either
That was a different balance, though. In season seven, the balance problem is with the Slayer line, not the balance of life and death in the universe or whatever. Tara dying (or any other sacrifice made to bring Buffy back) wouldn't have affected the Slayer line.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2008 03:40 am   #16Spikez_tart
I don't know if she notices he can't leave cause the sun's too high, or if she just doesn't want him to, or is truly indifferent by his presence. - She does notice.  Besides, how did he get there in the first place?  There must be a sewer entrance close by. 

Buffy looks up, sees Spike standing in the alley.
BUFFY: (frowns) Spike, it's daylight and you're-
SPIKE: Not on fire? (looks at the sky) Sun's low enough, shady enough here.

I don't know--his boots were pretty crappy in FFL.  - heh heh, so they were.  You'd think a cool guy like Spike would steal some new boots once in a while.

Things go badly for everyone involved in the spell because they're the main characters and this is Buffy. Bad things happen to them all the time; it's not because they're "tainted"  - of course they do, still the kind of trouble they get into in S6 is just so seedy and self caused.  As Willow says, they've all been slumming lately.

Doubtful... if the sacrifice hadn't been good enough, the spell probably just wouldn't have worked. Why on earth would a spell work with insufficient ingredients, and then several months later, take the final sacrifice that was needed? I think you're trying to make connections to things that in the Buffyverse are just coincidences. - The spell doesn't exactly work.   Buffy gets brought back but is still dead in some sense, which is why Spike's chip doesn't recognize her as human and the First can mimic her. 

Willow's spells frequently work at some level but not in the way she intended.  The my will be done spell works on a sort of subconscious level enacting her angry moods instead of as a conscious control on her emotions; the memory wipe spell in TR wipes everybody's memories in a far more drastic way than she intended.  Spells that Willow performs with the intent to control things and get her own way come out badly.  Spells that are meant to help others -ionizing the air so Spike won't get caught by the Initiative or to give Angel his soul back or brainsucking Glory to restore Tara, work pretty well.

Insinuating she doesn't want to talk about it is pretty smart, as it prevents them from asking questions, which would only lead to more lies. - Which is a pretty accomplished level of lying.  She does tell them what they want to hear.  Maybe part of her reason is to get everybody to quit asking her if she's okay.  Although she doesn't seem to mind when Spike asks her.



 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 05 2008 04:00 am   #17Scarlet Ibis
She does notice. Besides, how did he get there in the first place? There must be a sewer entrance close by.
No not that--I meant when he tries to leave.  He looks down, his boots in the shade, and the sun is very much bright then--he can't leave at that point.  Clouds must have parted or something.

Buffy gets brought back but is still dead in some sense, which is why Spike's chip doesn't recognize her as human and the First can mimic her.
No...Buffy just had a "deep, cellular tan" which is why the chip doesn't recognize her (and really, it's silly it ever worked on her at all, since Slayer's are imbued with the spirit of a demon, which makes them something that other/more than human), and the First mimic's her because she was dead.  In fact, the first could have mimicked her anytime after season 1, because she died.

Spells that Willow performs with the intent to control things and get her own way come out badly.
That's a good and interesting point.
ETA:  But just in the sense of Willow and her spells--I don't think the resurrection spell should be construed as some kind of "get out jail free card" for all of the actions made by those involved afterward.  And for all intents and purposes, that spell worked.  But all of Willow's ill gotten spells do seem to fail.

Which is a pretty accomplished level of lying.
Yeah, it is.  She actually says she's in hell though, and touches on how "crappy" it was.

BUFFY: Look, you guys, um, there's this thing ... so I'm just gonna say it. You brought me back. I was in a ... I was in hell. I, um ... I can't think too much about what it was like. But it felt like the world abandoned me there. And then suddenly ... you guys did what you did.
TARA: It was Willow. She knew what to do.
BUFFY: Okay. So you did that. And the world came rushing back. Thank you. You guys gave me the world. I can't tell you what it means to me. And I should have said it before.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 05 2008 04:24 am   #18Eowyn315
the kind of trouble they get into in S6 is just so seedy and self caused.
Exactly. That's the point - their troubles are all self-caused, because this season is all about fighting the everyday demons, not the external monsters. If they could just blame all their troubles on being "tainted," then in a sense it excuses their poor behavior because it's not just them screwing up because they're human and fallible. It's bad things happening to them as part of some karmic retribution for a spell they did. That theory may hold them accountable for the spell, but it simultaneously excuses everything else they did in the season because they've been "tainted."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2008 11:45 am   #19Spikez_tart
it's silly it ever worked on her at all, since Slayer's are imbued with the spirit of a demon - That's true.  I don't buy the sun tan thing.  If some of her cells are different, wouldn't all of them be? 

It's bad things happening to them as part of some karmic retribution for a spell they did. That theory may hold them accountable for the spell, but it simultaneously excuses everything else they did in the season because they've been "tainted."

Why can't you have both? - they make bad choices, but the taint from the spell makes them less able to see that the stuff they're getting into is bad or less able to choose (or even see) a better path.  I don't think it excuses their behavior - just explains it.  Sort of like when William becomes a vampire, he starts out as a still nerdy guy who wants to take his Mom along on his vampire honeymoon with Drusilla and each bad thing he does pulls him further in the direction of monster.  He makes a choice each step of the way, but the demon inside him is pushing the choices, making the bad choices seem more acceptable and making the good choices harder to make.

For example, Willow starts out taking care of Dawn, keeping the group together and fighting vampires, fixing the Buffybot, etc. then she does the big black magic spell to bring Buffy back.  A couple of days later, she shows her fangs to Giles, then she fights with Tara, then she wipes Tara's brain, then she hangs out with Amy and uses magic to screw around with a whole room full of people for fun, then she's wiping everybody's brain, etc. ending up killing two people, etc.  She could have taken a different turn at each step, but after a while, it must seem almost impossible to her.  She does take a different path when she gets Dawn hurt, but when Tara is killed, she's still not on sufficiently solid footing to turn away from a path of destruction and revenge.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 05 2008 02:47 pm   #20Scarlet Ibis
Sort of like when William becomes a vampire
But those are two totally different things--William has a full fledged demon, while the Scoobies are still humans with their shiny "good" souls.  Season six is a series of incidents (as opposed to a random one here or there like Pete or Maggie Walsh) that shows the audience that not only humans capable of doing bad things, but that they choose to do them.  Sometimes without remorse.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 05 2008 03:23 pm   #21Spikez_tart
William has a full fledged demon -   But, he always has free will.  His descent into bad activities by making bad choices is comparable.  When we first see William as a vampire, he's still silly and nerdy and caring about his mother.  It takes a while for him to become Spike and at every step, he could make a choice.  I don't think the demon is so much in control, as it gives him the excuse to do anything he wants (I was through living by society's rules. FFL)and increasingly he wants to do bad things.  Spike says himself that being bad is a choice:  (Crush)

SPIKE:  And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-

Turning his back indicates that he chooses to be bad and could choose to be good, just as Willow chooses to do magic and Xander chooses to dither around with Anya then finally leave her at the altar.  Buffy's free will is perhaps degraded to a certain extent due to her mental condition, but she also knows that her involvement with Spike isn't right (she throws his lighter into the box with the magic stuff, although she later retrieves it). 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 05 2008 04:35 pm   #22Guest
His descent into bad activities by making bad choices is comparable.I don't think the demon is so much in control, as it gives him the excuse to do anything he wants (I was through living by society's rules. FFL)and increasingly he wants to do bad things.
But bad things according to whom?  He's a vampire--living by human societies rules makes no logical sense.  Being apart of the vampire species means that you're supposed to live by vampire rules.  I'm sure if cows, pigs and chickens could talk, any omnivorous human would be the evil doer, wouldn't they?  Spike killed humans and hunted high game (slayers).  Of course if he's forced to live with humans, his perception of what is good or not is going to change.  Spike's choice to do what is good from a human's point of view wasn't him becoming "good" necessarily--that was him evolving.  He was removed from vampires as well as humans.

With Willow and the rest, who did have to live by human society's standards, yeah, they were being bad.

~Scarlet

Dec 05 2008 07:37 pm   #23Eowyn315
they make bad choices, but the taint from the spell makes them less able to see that the stuff they're getting into is bad or less able to choose (or even see) a better path. I don't think it excuses their behavior - just explains it.
But if they are less able to see that what they're doing is bad, and less able to choose a better path, how is that still having free will? Their perspective is being influenced by an outside force, and thus biasing them to choose something they wouldn't have chosen if not "tainted." But the Scoobies' bad decisions and actions are intended to show that you don't need evil influence to make bad choices or do bad things. Humans with souls are just as capable of doing bad things as anything else in the Buffyverse. What you're suggesting amounts to "If they hadn't been tainted, they would've made better choices," when the whole theme of the season is "even the good guys screw up sometimes," and I see those as conflicting arguments: if they hadn't been tainted and had made better choices, then they wouldn't be screwing up.

ETA: I do think Willow was literally influenced by the spell, in the sense that pulling it off gave her a huge confidence boost in her magical skill level, making her think she was invincible and leading to her irresponsible use of magic. However, that's not a mystical influence, just a psychological one. I think it's Willow's very human hubris and desire for power that leads her down the wrong path. The success of the spell just fed characteristics that were already there (we've seen evidence of Willow's abuse of magic going all the way back to season 3).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2008 08:30 pm   #24nmcil
From my perspective is that the compelling and great story of Spike is not so much that he is either Good or Bad, but how he takes, to use a metaphor, The Tiger and The Man and creates a symbiotic new life form.  One does not judge a tiger as good or evil, should we apply the same judgement to vampires?  It is their nature to be predators, and because they are predators in a human form, we want to apply our own standards of normality.  Vampires taken out of the context of feeding from humans brings in new dynamics - since they must eat to survive, if they do as The Tiger and eat only animals; are they evil?  The Tiger is not judged for his hunting, it is only when he attempts to eat a human that he then is judged and killed.  The nature of the animal and vamp is still the same, it is only by context that we label them Evil. 

Spike, IMO, with his combining of Vampire and Human does evolve, but he evolves as a new life form - not one that should first be described as either Good or Evil but more as a being controlled by free will, intellect, and choice.  

With Willow and the rest, who did have to live by human society's standards, yeah, they were being bad.

This was one of the very interesting themes of the series - this need to apply a narrow descriptive label and perspective from the characters.  From the needs of a warrior and hunter, The Slayer, like all high efficiency warriors, must have an extremely limited way of seeing their prey but what does that do to the human being?  We call Spike and Vampires killers and "lowest of the low," beyond any connection to the higher humans.  How should we, or do we judge, the warriors in our society?  Are they killers, are the evil? - what of the men , like the vampires, that our tigers are killing?  Labels and context are everything.  

Labels and Context  - the all important "Soul" equation that, IMO, almost destroyed Buffy and that clearly destroyed any potential good and joy that might have come to her from a relationship with this Spike in transformation.  Had she not been chained to her life perspective and labels of Soul and Good vs Evil, like all the Scoobies and Giles, she could have seen the world with a broader potential. 

While, it may not seem particularly decisive and vital, this giving of "meaning" and labels, it makes a huge part of our self-created realities.  We, like Buffy, can hate, loath, attack and even kill "our enemy," without guilt or remorse as she does in "Dead Things."  We simply  label them as "evil," her "souless beyond any hope of Good vampire"  and the deed gets done.  We never have to see our own failings or get the "cows, pigs and chickens" take on the whole thing.  

Life Lives On Life - that is the way of the universe and our world - and our labels help us to function within that horrendous model - but we, like the Scoobies, ought to look within ourselves and our reflections to make a better balanced world view.  Spike was, I think the model for this more introspective and balanced man - our beastly primal instincts filtered through free will and intellect and compassion and empathy for life - not just for our narrow "The Good" labeled reality that we create.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 07 2008 01:04 am   #25Spikez_tart
SI:  it's silly (the chip) ever worked on her at all - S, why does it work on Buffy ever since she's already died once?   Spike punches Buffy in the nose in Something Blue and he gouges her with a pool cuestick in FFL and gets a head zap both times.  There must be something different about the post spell Buffy. Maybe because she's dead quite a bit longer the second time.

bad things according to whom?  He's a vampire--living by human societies rules makes no logical sense.  - I accept there's a difference but vampires are sort of human, too.  They all started out as humans.  They have rational thought and emotions.  They are able to plan and move around in human society.  They need blood to exist, but they aren't programmed to kill in the same way a wolf is.  Since some vampires, like the vampire whores, manage to get blood without resorting to killing and torturing their victims, then presumably the rest could, if they wanted, find some less violent way to get fed.  Vamp clubs, hospital supplies (apparently they do this in Sunnydale) and the local butcher shop.  I don't buy that William, a self proclaimed "good man" falls so easily into the habit of murder and mayhem.  All this is interesting in the way it confuses and messes up Buffy.

Spike's choice to do what is good from a human's point of view wasn't him becoming "good" necessarily - true, but he recognizes the gang as the white hats, that they do good things: (The I in Team)

Spike: (scoff) Because you do that.  You're the goody-good guys. You're the bloody freaking cavalry.

He insists over and over that he's bad, which implies that he knows that there is also something good. (Goodbye Iowa)

Spike: Hey! What am I, a bleeding broken record? I'm bad it's just I can't bite anymore.  Thanks to you wankers.

if they are less able to see that what they're doing is bad, and less able to choose a better path, how is that still having free will? 
Plainly they do still have free will.  It's like a chess game.  There are only so many possible moves you can make at any given point in the game, sometimes more, sometimes less.  Some of those moves will cause your position to become worse or better, some will cause you to lose or win, but at all points, at least until the end, you have choices.  The problem for the gang comes when after the spell, the bad choices become more attractive.  Besides, I don't think that having a demon travel back with Buffy, that she then kills off, is sufficient consequence for the level of black magic that Willow performs.

Had she not been chained to her life perspective and labels of Soul and Good vs Evil, like all the Scoobies and Giles, she could have seen the world with a broader potential.  Yes and why does Buffy need to learn this lesson in S6?  She's all over Riley for being in a black and white/good vs. evil place.  She evens stands up for the unevolved Spike and says that hiding out Hostile 17 from the Initiative is not as bad as it looks:

Buffy:  And the Spike thing isn't as tweaked as it looks. Ok maybe it is but there's an explanation that almost makes sense.





If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 07 2008 01:50 am   #26Eowyn315
why does it work on Buffy ever since she's already died once?
Because the first time, she was revived by CPR, which is something that can happen to any normal human. It doesn't affect her humanness. The second time, she was resurrected by black magic, and that had some kind of effect on her humanness, which makes sense, since all the resurrection magic that's been referenced on the show has talked about zombies and people not being brought back exactly as they were.

They need blood to exist, but they aren't programmed to kill in the same way a wolf is. Since some vampires, like the vampire whores, manage to get blood without resorting to killing and torturing their victims, then presumably the rest could, if they wanted, find some less violent way to get fed.
Presumably, they could, but why should they? Humans are food to them, just like animals are food to us. Humans aren't "programmed" to kill and eat animals, but most of us do it anyway, because we don't see anything wrong with it.

Also, I would guess that most of those vamps who don't feed on humans aren't abstaining because they think it's wrong to kill humans. I think they do it because it's easier to fly under the radar that way. If you're leaving a trail of dead bodies in your wake, chances are the Slayer's gonna catch up to you. But look how long Buffy lived in Sunnydale and never knew the vamp whores existed - because she never found evidence of their feeding patterns. Same with those who buy human blood from a demon bar or steal it from the hospital. They get a steady diet of human blood, and they don't attract the attention of the Slayer.

The problem for the gang comes when after the spell, the bad choices become more attractive.
But what makes the bad choices more attractive? This "taint" that's affecting them, something external that's encouraging them to do something they wouldn't normally do. That's the thing you're not addressing - you're claiming that this taint is the reason they made bad choices, which suggests that without this taint, they wouldn't have done those things. Without this taint, they'd have made better choices. How is that not to some extent excusing their behavior? It's basically saying, "They're not bad people. They wouldn't have done those things normally, so there must be some other explanation. There must be something wrong with them, something that happened to them to make them this way. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done this."

I'm saying they absolutely would have done it. They don't need some mystical dark cloud hanging over their heads to make bad choices - they do it all the time! They've been doing it since season 1, and they'll keep doing it the rest of their lives. Every single one of them has a background that led to the bad choices they made in season 6, and it started way before they ever did the spell.

Besides, I don't think that having a demon travel back with Buffy, that she then kills off, is sufficient consequence for the level of black magic that Willow performs.
Well... you don't get to make the laws of the Buffyverse. Joss does. You want to write a fanfic about how the balance wasn't right and all sorts of bad things happened because of it? Go for it. But when we're discussing the episodes, we've gotta go with what actually happened, and there's nothing to suggest that the universe was demanding more sacrifices or doling out more consequences than what we saw on screen. In fact, as I've already mentioned, the theme of the season, in which normal ordinary humans are capable of evil, directly contradicts your theory.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 07 2008 02:11 am   #27Scarlet Ibis
I don't buy that William, a self proclaimed "good man" falls so easily into the habit of murder and mayhem.
First, Eowyn offers a great explanation to all that.  I'll just add that William, post turning, was more than William.  William was still there--all his thoughts and memories, true, but the fact of the matter is that he still wasn't human.  I'm sure that without Angelus' influence, he would have been...let's say tamer--less to prove or whatever.  But even so, vampires aren't humans--they're higher on the food chain.  And for those reasons, killing them for sport or food is within the boundaries of a vampire society.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 07 2008 05:13 pm   #28Eowyn315
I also get the sense that William was a bit... repressed, lol. Part of that is the Victorian stereotype, of course, but the way he says, "I was through living by society's rules," it makes it sound like he had a little bit of rebellion in him from the start. He saw becoming a vampire as freeing - all of a sudden, he doesn't have to be good and polite all the time. And you know what usually happens when someone who's been repressed and straight-laced their whole life is suddenly thrust into an environment where they can do whatever they want? They go crazy. It's why so many "good kids" spend their entire freshman year of college drunk off their asses. So yeah, I could see even good-boy William throwing himself full-tilt into murder and mayhem just because he can, because he's been held back for so long. You don't think he would've loved to punch those motherfuckers in the teeth when they mocked him for his poetry? But he can't, because it goes against the rules of society, and he doesn't have the balls to break the rules. He's been impotent for so long, and now he's suddenly not. He can punch whoever he wants, whenever he wants - hell, he can kill whoever he wants, and there's no one telling him it's wrong. And of course, with Angelus and Dru egging him on, he probably turned into something even worse than he would have on his own.

He's still William - he loves Dru as wholeheartedly as he loved Cecily, he's still devoted to his mother - but he's so much more than that now. And he's loving it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 08 2008 08:23 pm   #29nmcil
if they are less able to see that what they're doing is bad, and less able to choose a better path, how is that still having free will? Plainly they do still have free will. It's like a chess game. There are only so many possible moves you can make at any given point in the game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some of those moves will cause your position to become worse or better, some will cause you to lose or win, but at all points, at least until the end, you have choices. The problem for the gang comes when after the spell, the bad choices become more attractive. Besides, I don't think that having a demon travel back with Buffy, that she then kills off, is sufficient consequence for the level of black magic that Willow performs. Had she not been chained to her life perspective and labels of Soul and Good vs Evil, like all the Scoobies and Giles, she could have seen the world with a broader potential. Yes and why does Buffy need to learn this lesson in S6? She's all over Riley for being in a black and white/good vs. evil place. She evens stands up for the unevolved Spike and says that hiding out Hostile 17 from the Initiative is not as bad as it looks: Buffy: And the Spike thing isn't as tweaked as it looks. Ok maybe it is but there's an explanation that almost makes sense.

The point that I am trying to make is just this "how we see the world" - Buffy in Season Six makes her life miserable by her narrow perspective on Spike and on her relationship with him - in Season Six, not only Buffy and Spike, but all the original Scoobies are making very bad life choices - and they freely choose to do so.  Fear , power, denial, and self-delusions - all the inner demons that humans struggle come into the first level of their lives.  Like the Double meat Old Lady hiding behind her mask of "sweet lovable" when she actually is predator/demon looking to be fed.  It not for nothing that the visual metaphor is so phallic and that Buffy and Willow, the two main Power Players of Season Six are involved in killing the demon.  The realities that Willow and Buffy create for themselves in Season Six (all the bad stuff and struggles) are resolved in Season Seven - especially Buffy's struggles with Spike.  Never Leave Me, Sleeper and Showtime are vital in showing her transformed reality set.  Unlike the Doublemeat Old Lady/Demon, that she does not automatically kill Spike but wants and will wait for certain proof is a completely changed Slayer/Woman.

"Presumably, they could, but why should they? Humans are food to them, just like animals are food to us. Humans aren't "programmed" to kill and eat animals, but most of us do it anyway, because we don't see anything wrong with it."

This attitude also reflects back on the connections between vamps and humans, when Spike rants about how much he hates the taste of non-human blood we have to remember that humans primarily eat animals for the same reason - we don't really have to eat animal flesh to exist, we do it because we like how it taste, even worse is that in most "civilized and developed" societies - we like our meat all nice and clean and killed by someone else.  The reality and social group that we create for ourselves is very different from one that would exist if we had to actually do the killing ourselves.  Not saying that we would not continue to eat animals, but we would have to become part of the food chain directly - none of this second tier distance that we normally have.




” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 08 2008 11:37 pm   #30Scarlet Ibis
we don't really have to eat animal flesh to exist
Before someone mentions that vampires don't have to kill humans or even drink human blood--

True, but nature says we were meant to (like they were meant to).  We have teeth that allow us to tear into flesh, and it's for a reason.  We weren't meant to be herbivores like cows or something.  Meat wasn't always presented cleaned and packaged at your local grocery, but as time passed, we evolved with how we prepare our food.  As for "civilized and developed societies," well, vampires, if given the chance, would have progressed to this "clean and packaged" version of blood as we have.  Remember "The Wish?"

Unlike the Doublemeat Old Lady/Demon, that she does not automatically kill Spike but wants and will wait for certain proof is a completely changed Slayer/Woman.
Um...that is a comparison that really shouldn't be made.  There's no connection whatsoever between the two beyond the "they're both demons" thing.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 09 2008 03:13 am   #31Spikez_tart
Because the first time, she was revived by CPR, which is something that can happen to any normal human. It doesn't affect her humanness.  - I was thinking since Xander revives her pretty quickly, her cells don't really have a chance to die out all the way. 

there's nothing to suggest that the universe was demanding more sacrifices or doling out more consequences than what we saw on screen. - Killing off Tara might be the consequence that's demanded.  Joss keeps saying over and over and over and over - magic has consequences. And "black" magic is really bad, so shouldn't the consequences be worse than say floating a rose to show off for your girlfriend?  Having Buffy whack the head off one demon just doesn't seem to be enough.  I agree that they'd screw up anyway.  On the other hand, Willow kills two people, rips up Sunnydale and tries to destroy the world and her punishment is a round trip ticket to England.  

could see even good-boy William throwing himself full-tilt into murder and mayhem just because he can, because he's been held back for so long. - He seems more interested in getting laid at first. 

True, but nature says we were meant to (like they were meant to).  We have teeth that allow us to tear into flesh, and it's for a reason. - Yes - People Eating Tasty Animals!

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 09 2008 05:16 am   #32Eowyn315
Joss keeps saying over and over and over and over - magic has consequences. And "black" magic is really bad, so shouldn't the consequences be worse than say floating a rose to show off for your girlfriend?
They are. Have you seen Buffy this season? Her issues after being ripped out of heaven are a huge consequence of the spell. Consequences don't have to be all cosmic balancing of the universe and a life for a life. Sometimes it just means you screwed up and somebody got hurt. But I still don't see how you can connect Tara's death (a completely non-mystical death) to a spell that happened eight months earlier. If the universe required a bigger sacrifice, why didn't it take it right away? Why did the spell even work in the first place if the sacrifice wasn't good enough? It just doesn't make any sense.

He seems more interested in getting laid at first.
He's pretty interested in both - the first time we see him after being turned, he's talking about how they will "bring this world to its knees," "ravage this city together," "lay waste to all of Europe," and "open up their veins and bathe in their blood as they scream our names." Seems like he's taken to being a vampire pretty quickly. And that's before he's even met Angelus...
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 09 2008 05:48 am   #33Scarlet Ibis
He's pretty interested in both - the first time we see him after being turned, he's talking about how they will "bring this world to its knees," "ravage this city together," "lay waste to all of Europe," and "open up their veins and bathe in their blood as they scream our names." Seems like he's taken to being a vampire pretty quickly. And that's before he's even met Angelus...
William finally got some stones is all--he was just talking big, as "tough guys" do.  What he says kind of reads like poetry--a not so fun poem clearly, but like poetry.  Was his plan really to bring the world to its knees?  No.  The ravaging cities thing seems pretty accurate though.  He has freedom now, right, so why not destroy his oppressors (much like the rail road spikes thing)?  The thing with vamped William (just so its clear I'm not talking about his human self) is that he had a lot to prove--he wanted to be worthy.  Had he lead a different life in his human years, and not felt so emasculated, his reaction to being turned, I think, would have been not as...verbal in his enthusiasm of cutting a swath.

Okay, this officially feels like a ramble. 
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 09 2008 11:46 am   #34Spikez_tart
But I still don't see how you can connect Tara's death (a completely non-mystical death) to a spell that happened eight months earlier.  - Just because Joss seems to plan things so far in advance.  The First doesn't come around until S7, but it's supposedly because there are two Slayers which has been going on for years.  :)  Logic is not coming into it.

What he says kind of reads like poetry--a not so fun poem clearly, but like poetry.  - Yeah, no more sissy poetry for William.  Let's have some Kipling blood and guts.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 09 2008 08:07 pm   #35Eowyn315
The First doesn't come around until S7, but it's supposedly because there are two Slayers which has been going on for years. :) Logic is not coming into it.
Er... sorry, but just because Joss has one plot point that doesn't make sense doesn't mean we should come up with other explanations that make no sense when there's no reason to. Why would you try to explain something by using less logic than the show? Isn't the whole point of discussing these kinds of things to find the most logical explanation?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 09 2008 11:35 pm   #36Scarlet Ibis
Spikez_tart--

The First comes around in s3, actually in "Amends," but it wasn't strong enough to do anything besides push Angel to commit suicide.  I think the difference is when Buffy cheats death the second time, as opposed to there being two active slayers.  Her second death restored whatever "balance" there's supposed to be with slayers in the world, but by returning for a second time, well, that somehow raises the First Evil--well, not raises it, but gives it enough incorporeal power to get minions and imbue Caleb with power or whatever.  That's the best I got ;)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 10 2008 12:00 am   #37Eowyn315
That does kind of make sense... if the First is using the imbalance in the slayer line to make its move, then Buffy's first death (which was very short) and resurrection (which was totally natural) would only give it enough juice to mess with Angel a bit, and then when it fails, it has to retreat. Buffy's second death was much longer and more permanent, and ripping her out of heaven probably did a lot more damage than Xander's CPR, so the First was able to draw a lot more power from that event, which is why it's so much stronger in season 7.

Also, it's possible that the full strength of this power isn't accessible right away - in other words, it's not like Buffy's resurrected and boom! First Evil's at full strength. It might have to feed on the imbalance for a while in order to amass enough power before it's strong enough to make a move, which would explain the delay between Buffy's resurrections and the First's attacks. That also gives credence to Buffy's "attack first" plan, because the longer they wait, the harder the First will be to defeat.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 10 2008 12:05 am   #38Scarlet Ibis
It might have to feed on the imbalance for a while in order to amass enough power before it's strong enough to make a move, which would explain the delay between Buffy's resurrections and the First's attacks. That also gives credence to Buffy's "attack first" plan, because the longer they wait, the harder the First will be to defeat.
Yeah, that makes sense too.  Buffy's death the first time was what, seconds?  It took The First about a year and a half to get itself together (kind of).  When she's resurrected the second time, it's reaction time is quicker, and more palpable.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 21 2008 05:18 pm   #39Spikez_tart
 I think the difference is when Buffy cheats death the second time, as opposed to there being two active slayers. - That makes as much sense as Joss ever does  :)  I can't remember the explanation from S7, although it had something to do with Willow bringing Buffy back. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?