BEST. INTERVIEW. EVER. (Sample: Joss actually says he's always liked Spike more than Angel.) A million thanks to icafreak for transcribing it, and you can find (and comment!) on her original post here.


Jeff: So when did you realize that Spike was more than just a villain?

Joss: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Um, Spike was ya know, Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually and then ya know, James just brought and then kept on bringin'. So, it just, it was a pretty gradual process but it was always happening.

Jeff: A unique transition in that character from just a villain to almost the typical anti-hero. And yet never completely there.

Joss: Well, as a villain he was, ya know the Master that we started with was a straight up villain like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was, I said ok great and, and Mark, Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain who, that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly 'oh I'm such a bad ass' and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire, so from the very beginning the idea was well he's not just, ya know a cardboard. He's, he's, he's gonna have levels to play. Um, how many I didn't at the time realize, but ah, in a way he, he really didn't change that much. Ah, he's a character that I always liked a little bit more than Angel because --

Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

Joss: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time ya know he was, ya know he chose to have a soul.

Jeff: Sure.

Joss: Ya know he ah, he learned from his mistakes and he um, Angel was kinda the classic Lestat puffy shirt, ya know...

Jeff: Right.

Joss: Um, and ah, and Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against that, so I ah, I like that character. I always, I always thought he was a good guy even when he was a bad guy.

Jeff: Bad boy though, chicks love bad boys.

Joss: They do, they do. If they loved bad dancers the way they loved bad boys I would have been like, whoo.

Jeff: You would have been writing that.

Joss: Oh yeah.

Jeff: So it was an easy decision to bring him from Buffy over to Angel.

Joss: Um, the WB said they would not renew Angel unless we brought him over, so yeah it was a very easy decision.

Jeff: Really? Oh.

Joss: Um, and it was also an easy decision creatively, yes. We were, it was, and the best decision because we had a great ensemble on Angel um, but Spike and Angel's history meant that he and David played off each other in a way that nobody could, male or female and, ya know, David did some of his best work because he was in the room with James and Spike and Angel just... you think it's a banjo act and a banjo act but it's really not, they're so different.

Jeff: Instant conflict and yet great comedic moments.

Joss: Yeah. The two of them were so funny together.

Thanks for posting the link and interview -

Glad to see this different perspective as for some reason I had too had the impression that Joss Whedon was not especially found of this character - which I always found rather strange as he created a great story arc for Spike, especially his treatment in OMWF which I felt showed great sympathy and strong understanding of the man and vampire symbiotic relationship.   How could Spike be created with such depth and intelligence without  a great interest in the character - how could Spike have been so real. 

Spike, IMO, brought a great character to the series - compelling, passionate, intelligent and extremely interesting.  I think that Spike rejuvenated the series and brought a greater capacity to explore very adult themes, all those dark things that people feel they must hide but that can also transform people.

Glad to see this different perspective as for some reason I had too had the impression that Joss Whedon was not especially found of this character
That seems to be a common reaction among Spike/James fans. I think for a lot of people, it comes from James' own comments about Joss always resenting Spike because he wrecked the metaphor of what the show was supposed to be about (vampires were supposed to be evil, not sexy and heroic). James seems to have the impression that Joss got stuck with Spike because the fans liked him, but he (Joss) never really wanted him around. I'll admit, I can see that a little in season 4, but I've always found it hard to believe that a character Joss resented and didn't want around would be given such a great redemption arc like the one Spike gets in seasons 5-7. Also, even though Joss was sort of forced to bring Spike to Angel season 5, he's always sounded thrilled with the Spike/Angel dynamic that year, and never expressed any regret about bringing Spike back.

I never believed that Joss hated Spike or was not interested in him. If that was the case, Spike wouldn't have gotten such a great story. Heck, even Joss' favorite "Willow" got pushed aside in S7 but Spike wasn't. That just shows how much he cared.

If I wasn't interested in a character, I won't be writing so much about it. Period. I'll write for characters I like.

I think Joss said somewhere, very early on, that Spike was the character most like him.  (I think he meant William's nerdiness, as well as Spike's attempts to reinvent himself). Does anyone else remember seeing that?  It was probably at a con Q and A somewhere, but I've no clue where or when.  Waaaaay back when the show was still on, I know that much.

I don't remember seeing that, Patti. I know James has commented on those characteristics of Spike and said that it was very much like him - to the point that he got the script for "Fool for Love" and thought, "How dare you expose me in that way. I tell you my secrets and you just broadcast them." I don't recall Joss saying anything along those lines (but then, I don't have a handy database of everything Joss has ever said to check, lol). I think the general assumption is that Xander is the most "Joss-like" character, but that could be simply because he's the geeky everyman character, and not due to anything Joss has said.

I don't remember Joss saying that, but I remember James saying it about Joss, more than once. (Of course, as anyone familiar with James's interviews will know, he changed his opinion later, then changed it back again, etc.)

That was me, by the way. :P

James: "Joss never really found himself in Spike. Spike was always the other guy. Whereas all the other characters were really Joss, Spike was 'that ain’t me, man.' It made for a cool outsider character. I’m not complaining at all." March 2006

"I think finding out that Willy was a wuss was really hard. You know because frankly, when I was a teenager, I was really awkward, just like William. You know, and it was later in my 20’s that I went through a real violent period, and I put that to rest, and kind of came into my own later, and I want…I love the world looking at me like Spike, and I didn’t want them to know about that other period in my life, you know. And so I was like ‘What are you doing to me, man?’ I told Joss, I said ‘Look, you here in Sunnydale, you write all this high-faluting stuff about moral grey areas and complex human characters, but I have to go back into the Hollywood market place, where cool is money, and anything high-faluting ain’t. So what’s up Joss, you know, you’re killing me here’. But he was right and I was wrong, you know."  May 2003

"I'm a lot like Spike. Okay, when I am like Spike, I'm not funny. But, if they combine that anger and that violence with funny lines, the intersection between that writing and my own demons… that creates the character of Spike. I can't say that I am Spike, but I do think I'm part of it. But I'd like to say that the characters are defined much more by what they say than by how they say it. So what you guys understand about Spike is much more in the writing than in the performance. I do feel like he lives in here, I don't ever have a problem filming him. He's just right there, at this point.  I have.. I have a side to me which is very violent and very angry. But not funny. And so the writers write a bunch of funny lines, and then I give my violence to it and in that intersection I think is where Spike lives. Spike reads on the page very much like himself. But then I inject—a lot of people ask me ‘why are you so angry all the time?’ and I’m like ‘you don’t have time’ you know, um, so… both of us outcasts, I am a freak. I like being a freak, I don’t want to fit in, I don’t want to be normal… that’s a lot like Spike. It’s the punk rock thing. ‘Oh, you think I’m a freak? I’m proud of it’."  2001

"Most of the writers that had to do with Spike weren't Joss, actually. They were Douglas Petrie, they were everyone else. Joss was a fabulous writer who didn't necessarily want me in his show. (smiles) No, no, don't feel sorry for me, it worked out pretty well, you know? I mean, in the end I think that Joss thinks that Spike is an interloper upon his ?? and he didn't realize it but in trying to marginalize Spike, he created the underdog of underdogs. And since the show speaks to the underdog in us all, he kind of created the uber-outsider so to speak."  June 2007

Yeah, those were the back-and-forth opinions I mentioned in my previous post.

On the other hand, we have...

James Marsters: I am not paid for my writing skills. I am not Spike. I just play him on TV. Spike is Joss Whedon. (ET Online, 4-01)

James Marsters: Once I found the character of William, I was really convinced that nobody else would understand him. I wanted so much for the audience to hook into him because really, when Joss was writing stuff like, "I know I'm a bad writer, but I'm a good man", that's Joss. So I wanted to be true to that... (Shoreleave, 7-02)

James Marsters: But then I realized it's when Joss and Marti really love your character that you get humiliated. So when the oatmeal gets dumped on your head, that's when they're saying "We love you." (Chaos Bleeds Commentary, 10-03)

And I think Joss just proved which theory is correct, regardless of what James may think. :)

Me again. Dammit!

"I know I'm a bad writer, but I'm a good man", that's Joss.
Er... did he just say Joss is a bad writer? ;)

Just a self-conscious writer, I assume, although, to quote Dr. Horrible: "It's... not a perfect metaphor." :P

Well, wouldn't that really be directed at Douglas Petrie? 

Also, the opinions aren't necessarily back and forth...some of the quotes I posted came much later than those.

I'm thinking Joss conceived or wrote that scene.

Anyway, I won't play the fandom martyr and complain that Joss doesn't like my favourite character when he just stated, in clear terms, that he very much does (more than Angel, even). I'm taking him at his word, and I've never loved him more. :)

Okay, maybe I misremembered the quote. Would have sworn it was from a Q & A somewhere/somewhen when he was asked which character he identified with most.  I do remember that he may have referenced Xander at one time, too.  I wasn't able to research things back then - I just tended to follow links, or if someone had been to a con and put up a transcript (or their recollections) of interviews on their site, I would read them.  But I didn't know where to look for them, so I'm sure the few I saw were just the tip of the iceburg back then when everything was new and shiny and everybody wanted to know everything about everybody. :)

I suspect, also, that Joss is not above catering to his audience the way James often seems to be doing.  Actors and writers/directors/etc all seem to change their versions of events from time to time. It's human nature, I guess. And we all want to believe that the most current one is the most reliable. Especially if it meets our preferred view of things...:)

Maybe. But the transcriber said Joss was very candid about a lot of things in this interview -- even his father, which is rare if not unprecedented.

I think I remember a quote by Joss long time ago that Giles and Oz are based on real people he had met in his life and that Xander is the character based on him. I also remember him saying that Nicholas Brendon didn't play Xander as Joss wanted, he gave Xander more edge while he was just supposed to be the goofy guy....

I remember reading about Joss having Shakespearian nights with Tony and James, that he enjoyed their company the most. I also remember that he used some of James' personal life to write Spike's story.
 

I also remember him saying that Nicholas Brendon didn't play Xander as Joss wanted, he gave Xander more edge while he was just supposed to be the goofy guy...
I remember that too (somewhere)--Xander was supposed to be like the Shemp or something, but Nic brought this aspect of sexy to it, or something like that.  I think he says it on one of the DVD extras.

I remember Joss commenting about choosing good-looking actors to play geeks like Xander and Willow. That it was a TV thing. Xander and Willow were supposed to be less attractive.

I suspect, also, that Joss is not above catering to his audience
Oh, definitely, which is why he's probably had just as varied an opinion on things over the years as James has, and you pretty much have to take everything any of them say with a grain of salt. But like I said earlier in the thread, it's hard to believe that Spike would've gotten the arc he did if Joss resented the character or didn't like him, so what Joss says in this interview rings true, based on what we saw.

Hi,

Can I just add that there's a lot more to the interview.  I spoke with Joss for over an hour and it's all available now on DVD. The interview covered most of Joss' career, his writing habits, Buffy, Angelm Firefly and so much more. In addition to Joss, there are also episodes that feature hour long interviews with Damon Lindelof, creator of Lost, Tim Kring, creator of Heroes and others.  If you like what you read here please check out my site at http://www.thewriteenvironment.com

There's still time to get it for Christmas.

Thanks.

Jeffrey

Hi, Jeffrey - you have a cool job!! Glad you found your way here to comment personally.

CM

Part of James' perspective was also that he didn't have much to do in any episode Joss directed, he didn't get to work with him much in that way as Spike, and he came to expect that if Joss was writing an ep, Spike wouldn't be in it much. He really started saying that a lot by AtS season 5 and afterwards. He really wanted to work right with Joss, seems to be the feel of it, and didn't as much time as he wanted doing that.

So there's another part of the intertwining story.

CM

Hi, Can I just add that there's a lot more to the interview. I spoke with Joss for over an hour and it's all available now on DVD. The interview covered most of Joss' career, his writing habits, Buffy, Angelm Firefly and so much more. In addition to Joss, there are also episodes that feature hour long interviews with Damon Lindelof, creator of Lost, Tim Kring, creator of Heroes and others. If you like what you read here please check out my site at http://www.thewriteenvironment.com There's still time to get it for Christmas. Thanks. Jeffrey

My thanks as well for joining us here and for posting your link - look forward to reading more and seeing what else you have there and getting the dvd - Christmas Prezzie to self -

More of Joss's thoughts--

"Let's talk a little bit about Spike. He is so hot. [laughter] Spike
is an interesting character for me because I secretly always felt that
he was a tad more involved as a human being than Angel was, Angel
having had humanity thrust upon him, whereas Spike actively sought it
out."

http://www.billiedo ux.com/highstake s2004.html

"If I had ended it by explaining what happened to everybody, I would
have been untrue to that message...However, if you like, I can tell
you. Gunn pretty much dies, Illyria lives, Spike got the Shanshu,
Angel gets his arm cut off, and Xander loses another eye which is
weird because he wasn't even there."

Gunn pretty much dies, Illyria lives, Spike got the Shanshu, Angel gets his arm cut off, and Xander loses another eye which is weird because he wasn't even there.
Hmm... well, he's two for five, if we're to assume that "After the Fall" is what Joss had in mind for season six. :)

I remember that second quote. LMAO

CM

Thanks for posting the Interview Link - great Q&A event  - I admire JW and his strong political support for Kerry-Edwards and politics period - I know he also supported Obama this year.  I am always surprised at how some viewers wanted to ignore the political layers of all his series -

Great to learned more his thoughts on Spike  - when this event happend, I had actually signed up for the online event, but registered too late to actually participate - and while I was sorry to have missed all the Whedon and Buffyverse Actors Event I was more than happy to help support Kerry-Edwards - I worked on their campaign here in Albuquerque - one night that I was working Leonardo di Caprio showed up at our headquarters and did an  surprise event for the campaign and environmental concerns.   In today's world, Joss Whedon's concerns have all played out - GWB and the Power Money Elites have destroyed so many things in our nation and the world.  I went to bed in tears the night Kerry-Edwards lost the election.

on another note - I personally hate the idea of Spike getting the Shanshu - of course his metaphor is all about finding his humanity and transcendence from  Primal Beast Man toward Man Mind and Heart Ascendant - but for FF I still like Spike Vampire or Spike Enhanced Human.