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Wrecked: Episode Discussion

Dec 31 2008 05:28 pm   #1sosa lola

- I feel so bad for Dawn at the beginning, feeling so scared for the fate of Buffy and Willow when both of them had irresponsibly lost track of time, drowning in their pleasures and forgetting their responsibility to Dawn. I wonder about Dawn's state of mind if Tara had left last night (like she'd wanted) and Dawn had to wake up alone, not finding Buffy and Willow at home.

- I love Spike's post-sex attitude, it's why he's one of my favorite characters. I enjoy him like this much more than when he's all quiet and broody and "making moon eyes" to quote Buffy.

- SPIKE: I just don't see why you have to run off so quick. Thought we could-

Wow, once Spike's relationship with Buffy hit a new level –skipping second base, heeee- he seems to forget entirely about Dawn. Buffy had already told him that she was in a hurry because she'd left Dawn alone all night, and he doesn't seem to think it's reason enough? Bad Spike :mad:

- Both Buffy and Spike are acting immaturely here. Buffy returns to her usual "initiating the act and then pretending it never happened/claiming it'll never happen again." She's obviously ashamed of what she had done, losing herself to passion in a moment of weakness, and forgetting about her responsibility to her kid sister. Spike, who had finally got so close to Buffy, wants things to progress in their relationship, that he's persistently keeping Buffy from doing what's right –checking on her sister- and compelling her to do as he wishes (have another round with him) even though she says "stop" and "no".

- Apparently, Buffy is all "My body is saying let's go, but my (mind) is saying no." Personally I don't think that excuses Spike's pushy behavior.

- Spike ruins the moment by saying the stupidest thing a man would say: "I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be fucking her."  He's so aggressive here he reminds me of Spike in Spander stories where they both talk aggressively to each other while shagging (I'm not complaining, I like the rough talk in fics/TV, it's why I enjoy S6 Spuffy so much. Both of them are awful toward the other.)

- Buffy is so offended, and perhaps hurt, when Spike said that. She feels suddenly used. I'm wondering why she's offended by that when it's obvious she's using him as well. 

- BUFFY: You're just convenient.

Now it’s Buffy's turn to throw the punch (though I believe Spike was just being clueless when he babbled about fucking a slayer, hurting her feelings wasn't his intention.) Spike is offended now, and reacts badly to it like Buffy did earlier to his comment, at least he's standing up to himself and calling her on her shit.

- Buffy looks so heartbroken in this scene, I'm not so sure if it's because she gave him what he wanted and now there's no going back or because she lost herself in passion, showing Spike that she is attracted to him –at least physically- and she can't deny it now. Perhaps because he had told her that she came back wrong, that she's less than a human now. Too much hurt and sorrow and no one seems to be on her side, even Spike is more or less taunting her about giving in to him (pleasure wise). She lost the tolerant friend she had in Spike the second they had kissed in OMWF and apparently now she won't be able to get him back.

- BUFFY: Like you're god's gift.
SPIKE: Hardly. Wouldn't be nearly as interesting, would it?

Oh, I agree.

- SPIKE: You never had it so good as me. Never.

Cocky much? Lol

- Dawn should just move in with Tara. Who would've thought the most self-doubting person among the Scoobies is now the most level-headed responsible one? Tara came a long way.

- Poor Tara must have thought that Amy was Willow's date until Willow explained that Amy had been their pet rat.

- Willow knows exactly why Tara had left her, which is why she's so uncomfortable when Amy started blurting out how irresponsible Willow was with her magic last night.

- I'm glad to see the guilty expressions on both Buffy and Willow's faces for acting so irresponsible and leaving Dawn alone without even giving her a reassuring phone call.

- It seems like Willow can't live her life without magic. She became such a lazy person. Anya nailed it when she said that the responsible ones are the easiest to fall into temptation once they have a taste of irresponsibility.

- Buffy, Xander and Anya are still stuck in research duty, except Anya gave up long time ago, and decided to give in to temptation as well by reading bridal magazines.

- Xander suggests they get Spike to help, Buffy frantically vetoes it. For very obvious reasons.

- ANYA: What about Willow, can't she do something?
BUFFY: Maybe. But she's home sleeping.
XANDER: Sleeping? She sick?
BUFFY: No, she was out late. With Amy. (Xander looks annoyed)
ANYA: And I'm bizarre. At least I didn't dump you to hang out with an ex-rat.
BUFFY: No, it's not like that, you know, she's just ... helping Amy through a transition.
XANDER: And making herself a playmate to do magic with. Someone who won't monitor her like Tara.
BUFFY: No, Willow's a grownup. You know, maybe she doesn't need to be monitored (Xander stares at her) You know, she's going through something, but we're not her. I mean ... m-maybe she has reasons for acting this way. (Anya staring at her) And, so what if she crossed a line? You know, we all do stuff. Stupid stuff. But, then we learn. And, and we learn, and, and we don't do it again. Okay, so, you know, who are we to get all judgey?
XANDER: Not judgey, Buff. Just, observey.
ANYA: Yeah, all we're saying is, she's acting different. You know, she's not herself.

From the conversation above, Xander and Anya aren't approving of Willow's palling out with Amy. Amy doesn’t monitor Willow like Tara does. Actually, she's pulling her more and more to the path of no good, and there should be a stop to that. What bugs me is that Xander and Anya just talk about Willow needing help, yet they do nothing. Is it because catching the demon is more important at the moment?

- Self-involved Buffy defends Willow, only because she herself is doing something bad as well, and thinks that it's okay for Willow to cross the line, only to justify her crossing the line too.

- Willow feels comfortable about going for another night of irresponsible fun, especially since it had consequences, but with a little push from Amy, she reluctantly agrees to be "bad" again.

- I hate, hate, hate the drug-metaphor! Urgh! I hate that they turned magic from a sex metaphor to a drug one. Magic was supposed to be a good thing, not weed.

- RACK: You taste ... like strawberries.

And ever since then, Willow uses nothing but strawberry scented shampoos, soaps, creams and when Spike drinks from her blood it tastes like strawberry, while Buffy's tastes like vanilla and Xander's like chocolate. (I miss the classic fanfics! Hee, back in my first year with fanfic -7 years ago- I used to get a tingle in my pathetic heart whenever Spike called Xander "chocolate eyes." Guh! *is so embarrassed*)

- I actually felt bad for Willow when she created a Tara body to hug her, she's clearly lost because Tara isn't here. She was the one who was vocal about Willow's excessive use of magic. Sadly Willow's friends don't have the courage to talk to her about it, when they obviously should.

- Dawn is the one breaking my heart the most this episode. Poor thing is so happy and grateful that Willow is gonna take her to a movie and dinner. It makes me wonder where Janice is. Doesn't Dawn have other friends to hang out with when her sister and Willow are busy having a life?

- AMY: I like your coat. When does the slayer find time to shop?

Where does she have the money to shop? Seriously, if you wanna play the "Buffy is broke" card, the least you can do is have her repeat her outfits and make her wear something less expensive.

- Willow the junkie needs her drugs, and that makes her too desperate and less awake and less reliable. At least she fed Dawn before she takes her to Rack's place.

- Gentlewoman Buffy looks away when Spike starts wearing his clothes, and Spike mocks her for it. Cute.

- While Willow deserves Buffy's cold stares and Dawn's slap, I felt bad when she dropped to the floor crying her guilt and remorse out. Yeah, I'm a softie. I don't get her "I tried but can't" though, because I don't think Willow tried to stop.

- I feel that Buffy had it coming when Willow almost got her sister killed, everybody knew that Willow had a problem and Buffy was the one who defended her, even though she had admitted that Willow went out of line, but because Willow's bad behavior is linked to hers, she was selfishly defending herself and not really thinking about Willow.

- I love Willow's insecurity about why Tara loves her. Tara knew Witch Willow, but never knew Nerd Willow. What are the chances that she'd like Nerd Willow? Buffy believes that Tara will love that Willow, but Willow isn't sure, because she hates her old nerdy self.

- While is Buffy thinking of herself whenever Willow's problem is talked about? They're NOT similar! Buffy isn't hurting anyone but herself and Spike by having violent sex while Willow's abuse of magic is hurting her and others. Having violent sex isn't wrong, because it doesn't hurt people, and Buffy obviously enjoys it.

Dec 31 2008 07:57 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis
I wonder about Dawn's state of mind if Tara had left last night (like she'd wanted) and Dawn had to wake up alone, not finding Buffy and Willow at home.
Dawn is quite young (mentally, and maturity wise), so I imagine not well at all.

Buffy had already told him that she was in a hurry because she'd left Dawn alone all night, and he doesn't seem to think it's reason enough?Spike, who had finally got so close to Buffy, wants things to progress in their relationship, that he's persistently keeping Buffy from doing what's right –checking on her sister- and compelling her to do as he wishes (have another round with him) even though she says "stop" and "no".
I think you're selectively forgetting things here...Buffy refers to the night before as a "freak show," when she is the one who initiated it all.  And Spike's right--she took no issue about Dawn's well being the night before--all night, in fact.  He didn't keep Buffy from doing anything, and it is Buffy who in fact progressed their relationship (as I stated before) kissing him, and jumping on his penis.  Doesn't get more progressive than that.  Or pushy.

Spike ruins the moment by saying the stupidest thing a man would say: "I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be fucking her."
He only said that to see what reaction he would get.  What moment would he be ruining?  If sex was really all she was after, or it all meant nothing as she claimed (which is the exact impression she gives to him), then him saying something so crude would not have mattered.  He wanted to know if she cared.  She couldn't stay to cuddle or keep him company--her insistence of checking on Dawn or whatever--but when he offers her more sex, everything's just dandy then, wasn't it?  He wanted to know if there was more (even if she was in denial), and her put off reaction gave him his answer. Yes, in spite of her previous bitchiness.

I'm not so sure if it's because she gave him what he wanted and now there's no going back or because she lost herself in passion, showing Spike that she is attracted to him
I think that in her own (sick) way, she was testing him first.  He's a vampire--a soulless one, so clearly the morning after would have to be reminiscent of Angelus' callous words (even though he left before then--their conversation later when she finally finds him).  Only, she would be wrong.  She didn't give Spike a chance to see his reaction.  She didn't talk to him, is quick to leave, and called it perverse.  Echoes from her first time around.  And even when he asks her not to refer to it in such a way, she just keeps plowing down, even when it's clear that he's hurt, voice slightly trembling as he says, "Don't say that," which is when he switches gears on her, since his pain is just as seemingly inconsequential to her as the night they had.  Maybe deep down, she wanted him to be a bastard--give her a reason to be angry with him, when so far that morning, she had unjustifiably been so.  If he hadn't given her one, she would have seemed crazy, being in bitch mode for no reason, and then keeping it up.  Though IMHO, that (her seeming crazy for tripping like that) hasn't changed for me.

Going back to the "perverse, degrading" comments though--

DAWN: You're not, you're all sore and limpy.
BUFFY: I, I'm not ... sore, I just... (sits down with a grimace of pain) ... I had a fight, you know, the ... all-nighter kind.


I'm thinking teh hot spex included anal.  The impression I got anyway.

- Self-involved Buffy defends Willow, only because she herself is doing something bad as well,
Jeebus H, it wasn't bad--it was blown ridiculously out of proportion.  That makes no sense to me as to why that would be bad.  So she had sex--possibly kinky sex with a guy she's not only more than familiar with, but who's in love with her.  Get over it already.

I hate that they turned magic from a sex metaphor to a drug one. Magic was supposed to be a good thing, not weed.
Not mellowing weed--but frantic crack magic

Doesn't Dawn have other friends to hang out with when her sister and Willow are busy having a life?
Dawn's a bit...lame, so my guess is no.  She seems to only manage one friend at a time, and this is probably due to her extreme immaturity.  Also, she's a whiner, and from my own high school experiences that didn't happen so long ago, no one wants to be bothered with the lame crybaby.  They're tolerated, but they more than likely won't get invited to parties or saved a seat at lunch.  I don't blame her though--the writers didn't write for her as if she were truly fifteen/sixteen.
but because Willow's bad behavior is linked to hers, she was selfishly defending herself and not really thinking about Willow.
That was pretty stupid.  What Willow was doing had nothing to do with Buffy sleeping with Spike.  Sleeping with Spike didn't put anyone in danger, or cause car accidents. 

Not only that, but that whole crosses and garlic scene was also annoyingly stupid, sitting on her bed all curled up as if he was going to swoop in and put some thrall on her or something equally ridiculous.  The shit just goes further down the hill for me after this.
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Dec 31 2008 11:08 pm   #3Spikez_tart
Self-involved Buffy defends Willow - okay, Buffy is talking about herself, but how annoying is it to be an adult and having everyone you know monitor your behavior.  It sucks.  Especially if you aren't doing anything that is hurting anyone else.  The sad part is that Buffy doesn't (eventually) tell them that she's sleeping with Spike and if they don't like it they can all blow out their a**.  The whole we are your friends and have the right to stick our nose in your business anytime we want is irksome.

Drugs = magic - Also irksome.  Especially since sometimes Magic is Good and sometimes its Bad Bad Bad, depending on whether Willow is being all PMSie.  On a side note, everybody is always saying how Willow is the Uber Witch, but the fact is that both Xander (sets a book on fire and summons a demon) and Dawn (raises her mother from the dead) show some proficiency at magic, which is glossed over. 



If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 31 2008 11:14 pm   #4sosa lola

And Spike's right--she took no issue about Dawn's well being the night before--all night, in fact.

But Spike wasn't criticizing her for forgetting Dawn yesterday. He doesn't even think about Dawn, at that moment (which is the morning after) all he seems to think about is having sex. He's wondering; why is Buffy in such a rush after she had explained that she needed to go and check on Dawn?

He didn't keep Buffy from doing anything, and it is Buffy who in fact progressed their relationship (as I stated before) kissing him, and jumping on his penis. Doesn't get more progressive than that. Or pushy.

I'm not talking about Smashed. I'm talking about the morning after, I'm talking about Wrecked. Spike doesn't want Buffy to go, he pulls her to his lap and kisses her and still grabs her, even though she explained she needed to go and said, "stop" and "no".

He only said that to see what reaction he would get.

Nah. I think he really meant what he said, but I don't think he meant to hurt her. He was stupidly speaking his mind and didn't expect Buffy to get offended.

What moment would he be ruining?

The kissing? He got Buffy to stay and kiss him and then get on top of her, but he ruins the moment with his comment.

I think that in her own (sick) way, she was testing him first.

If she was testing him because of what had happened with Angelus, why would we describe it as sick? The girl has issues and she fears she's gonna get stumped on again. I'd describe it as sad and heartbreaking.

Maybe deep down, she wanted him to be a bastard--give her a reason to be angry with him, when so far that morning, she had unjustifiably been so.

I don't think she's angry with Spike. I think she's disgusted with herself for losing control and slipping into temptation, and she turned her self-loathing on Spike. Yelling at him and insulting him... Spike isn't helping the matter with his sure attitude, the fact that he's lying down, happy and content, throwing teasing remarks at her makes her mood get even worse, and she lashes out at him.

I agree that she'd much prefer Spike being a bastard, because it'll be easier to hurt him and hate him. I don't think she'd have felt that guilty over how she treated him in the future if Spike was being a jerk to her.

Jeebus H, it wasn't bad--it was blown ridiculously out of proportion. That makes no sense to me as to why that would be bad. So she had sex--possibly kinky sex with a guy she's not only more than familiar with, but who's in love with her. Get over it already.

I agree.

Not only that, but that whole crosses and garlic scene was also annoyingly stupid, sitting on her bed all curled up as if he was going to swoop in and put some thrall on her or something equally ridiculous. The shit just goes further down the hill for me after this.

Yeah, the whole scene was stupid.

Dec 31 2008 11:25 pm   #5sosa lola

okay, Buffy is talking about herself, but how annoying is it to be an adult and having everyone you know monitor your behavior. It sucks. Especially if you aren't doing anything that is hurting anyone else. The sad part is that Buffy doesn't (eventually) tell them that she's sleeping with Spike and if they don't like it they can all blow out their a**. The whole we are your friends and have the right to stick our nose in your business anytime we want is irksome.

You don't think Willow needs someone to guide her? Xander and Anya have a point, Willow needs someone who stands up to her and tells that she's hurting herself and others by her actions, but sadly, they don't act on it. I really wish Xander had a talk with Willow instead of discussing it with Buffy and Anya.

As for Buffy, she's the one who has doubts about how her friends would react. We can't blame her friends when they know nothing about it. We saw their reactions: Tara, Dawn and Willow were fine with it. Giles actually laughed when she told him about it. Xander knew at a very bad time, he was in a lousy state of mind and reacted badly to it: unlike how calm and mature he had reacted to the news of Buffy sleeping with Spike in S5. At that time he wasn't depressed and hadn’t seen his ex having sex with Spike, he was a happy, content young man and was able to handle the news of Buffy and Spike sleeping together rationally.

So, if Buffy told them about it in normal circumstances, I don't think they'll be judgmental about it. Buffy is the one who ruins it for herself, not her friends.

Jan 01 2009 01:38 am   #6Scarlet Ibis
Spike doesn't want Buffy to go, he pulls her to his lap and kisses her and still grabs her, even though she explained she needed to go and said, "stop" and "no".
Buffy's way stronger than Spike, so I don't buy that at all.

Nah. I think he really meant what he said, but I don't think he meant to hurt her.
But he laughs at her when she's all like "Is that what this was about?" which implied (to me) that he did say it on purpose to see what she'd say/do.

I think she's disgusted with herself for losing control and slipping into temptation, and she turned her self-loathing on Spike.
But why would she feel like it was self loathing if she wasn't disgusted by him in some form or fashion?  She wasn't all, "Oh man--that was wicked irresponsible of me, staying out all night.  Maybe next time it should be at my place, or we call it a night early," she was saying it was wrong, perverse, yada yada yada.

So, if Buffy told them about it in normal circumstances, I don't think they'll be judgmental about it. Buffy is the one who ruins it for herself, not her friends.
I agree.  Her friends were very calm and supportive when they thought that in s5, but they'd been hanging out with Spike since then, so they'd more than likely have been more than okay.  Probably would have gotten a "Seen that one coming a mile away," from Anya, or hey, even Xander, and that would have been that.  Not to mention that she was hellbent on her decision of keeping Spike to her friends (to Giles more importantly--the all mighty father figure) around towards the end, before she died, which makes this whole "bad/wrong" thing even more ridiculous.
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Jan 01 2009 02:01 am   #7slaymesoftly
I'd have to rewatch the episode to be sure, but I know at the time I was just as shocked and upset as Buffy when Spike made his crude remark. I do think her feelings were hurt - whether he intended it or not - those were not the words of a man who has just had his first night with the woman he loves. She lashed back and it was downhill from there.  Buffy was not thrilled with herself, but she wasn't immune to his request to stay (or to his kisses) untll he opened his mouth and put both feet in it.

Buffy's defense of Willow was very much a defense of her own behavior - hence the confusion on the part of Xander and Anya.

And, yeah, I've always thought the Scoobies would have been way more accepting of the relationship than Buffy thinks.  There's no reason for them not to be, and even if they were, the guilt for what they'd done to her should/would have kept their mouths shut.  But the show went the way it did because that's what it needed to do to fulfill the arc for that season.  Gives us more places to change it.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 01 2009 02:10 am   #8Scarlet Ibis
I imagine that during the course of the evening, Spike probably attempted to profess his love verbally.  If we're to be true to Buffy the character at that point in time, I'm sure that was met with a punch in the face, and a "shut up."  She wasn't being nice (at all) before his remark, and I think, that since he's in love with her, we can all agree that him having sex with her had nothing to do with him thinking that doing a slayer would be more fun than killing one.  It wasn't an experiment to him, despite what he said.  Maybe s4 Spike would see it that way, but not now.
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Jan 01 2009 03:52 am   #9Spikez_tart
Not only that, but that whole crosses and garlic scene ... the whole scene was stupid. - Maybe it was meant to show how stupid Buffy was being.  Crosses and garlic are for protection and she doesn't need protection from Spike, but from herself and crosses and garlic won't help her.

So, if Buffy told them about it in normal circumstances, I don't think they'll be judgmental about it. Buffy is the one who ruins it for herself, not her friends.  The super friends might have been judgmental or not, but Buffy was too big of a coward to find out.  In Gone, Xander does say that only an idiot would have sex with Spike, and we see everyone's reaction when Spike has sex with the Buffybot.  They all drop on Buffy like a ton of bricks, even Tara and Anya.  Xander's attitude in S6 is very harsh in part because of the Spanya, but he also objects because of Spike's history.

You don't think Willow needs someone to guide her? - For what?  She's an adult, she knows what she's doing is over the top, her la la la attitude shows that she doesn't give a damn what they think (until Dawn gets hurt).  Actually, Anya calls her on it and basically says what you're doing is stupid and Xander sort of shuts her down.  I guess only one of the core group can criticize another core member.

I imagine that during the course of the evening, Spike probably attempted to profess his love verbally.    He says as much and apparently Buffy, in the heat of the moment (or hours), accepts his words.

BUFFY: The hurry is I left Dawn all night. And don't call me love. (continues looking for shoe)
SPIKE: You didn't seem to take issue with that last night. (smirking) Or with any of the other little nasties we whispered.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 01 2009 08:43 am   #10sosa lola

Buffy's way stronger than Spike, so I don't buy that at all.

It's not about who's stronger than who. Buffy obviously wants more kissing and groping with Spike, but she knows she had to leave, and Spike isn't helping at all, even though he knows Dawn is alone at the house, probably scared because she doesn't know where Buffy is.

But he laughs at her when she's all like "Is that what this was about?" which implied (to me) that he did say it on purpose to see what she'd say/do.

I think he laughs because he doesn't think it's a big deal.

But why would she feel like it was self loathing if she wasn't disgusted by him in some form or fashion? She wasn't all, "Oh man--that was wicked irresponsible of me, staying out all night. Maybe next time it should be at my place, or we call it a night early," she was saying it was wrong, perverse, yada yada yada.

Her disgust isn't about Dawn as much as it's about having sex with Spike, she's so angry with herself, she's throwing it all on Spike. Which is immature and cowardy on her part.

For what? She's an adult, she knows what she's doing is over the top, her la la la attitude shows that she doesn't give a damn what they think (until Dawn gets hurt).

So, if my friend is on drugs I should just stand by and let her ruin her life because she's an adult? Adults also make  mistakes, and personally, I want my friends to talk to me if they thought I was ruining my life, even if I was such a pig-headed person who doesn't want to listen to reason, I wanna know that my friends love me enough to try and save me. I wanna know that they actually tried to help me. That's not being judgmental, that's about being friends.

Actually, Anya calls her on it and basically says what you're doing is stupid and Xander sort of shuts her down. I guess only one of the core group can criticize another core member.

Anya tried, and as you said Willow didn't listen, but that doesn't mean that you give up one your friend right away. It shows that you don't care at all. "Oh. I tried. Didn't work. I give up." I'm actually more angry at Xander for not stepping up and talking to her. She's his best friend, and he did nothing.

Anya spoke about what Xander wanted to tell Willow (in a tactless manner, which I think is the reason Xander got uncomfortable with Anya, not that she spoke her mind.) and she showed that she's a better friend to Willow than both Buffy and Xander.
 

Jan 01 2009 03:24 pm   #11Spikez_tart
So, if my friend is on drugs I should just stand by and let her ruin her life because she's an adult?  - I'd be more persuaded by your argument if the group didn't frequently ask Willow to do magic when it was convenient or necessary.  Also, people who abuse drugs aren't usually all that concerned with what their friends think.  I agree the group should talk to her but monitoring her behavior is pointless.  The time to do something about Willow was after Tabula Rasa when she'd injured and endangered them all, yet only Tara acted.  Giles is certainly a culprit there since he knows where she can get help (coven in England) but suggests and does nothing. 

Anya spoke about what Xander wanted to tell Willow (in a tactless manner, which I think is the reason Xander got uncomfortable with Anya, not that she spoke her mind.) and she showed that she's a better friend to Willow than both Buffy and Xander.   I'm not sure that Anya spoke up because she is Willow's friend because I'm not certain Anya considers Willow her friend.  She just doesn't like the tiptoeing around and pretending that everything is fine.  I also think Xander gets uncomfortable not just with Anya's tactless manner, but with her refusal to ignore problems and let them fester in the approved scoobie manner.  It's only been a couple of weeks since OMWF when everybody's secrets got revealed and already the group is back to hiding things.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 04 2009 07:59 am   #12nmcil
Spike ruins the moment by saying the stupidest thing a man would say: "I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be fucking her."

Sex is often equated with death as in "the little death" - being consumed by another also giving oneself entirely over to another person, being vulnerable both emotionally and physically.  That Spike would equate the two together, while really sleazy and creepy and totally the wrong thing to say about what the experienced does make some sense.  I think the writers are using this earlier comment in a very obvious way to reiterate that this is not going to be a healthy and loving relationship - but that it is all tied together with both their history and the chaos of her resurrection.  It actually looks like Buffy takes the same body position as when she wakes up from her experience with Parker - which is just how she describes Spike - a useful sexual object - same line and history is being played out again as the Angelus/Angel morning after and as with Parker. 

This is really a very interesting part of that scene - while Spike's lines come across as utterly stupid and inappropriate, they also, IMHO, establish that Buffy does want him - he "groupie title" shows that she is sexually attracted to him and that, like other groupies, will pursue him. 

BUFFY: No, no, I-I have to-

SPIKE: Stay. I'm stuck here. Sun's up. I knew. I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be f-

BUFFY: What?! (gets up)

BUFFY: Is that what this is about? Doing a slayer?

SPIKE: Well, I wouldn't throw stones, pet. You seem to be quite the groupie yourself.

BUFFY: Shut up.

SPIKE: I'm just sayin' ... vampires get you hot.

Buffy wants Spike as her last conversation with Willow clearly shows, but all her history with the  Giles, and her past experiences with men, and being the Slayer are working against any chance that she could accept the relationship.  Plus now she thinks that her all important human superiority over the demons is in question.  Naturally she would not want to acknowledge any desires or connection with Spike - he is after all everything that represents the ugly and violent part of her life.  And Spike giving voice to all the anger and hurt that her "your just convenient" brings out only adds more fuel to all the passion, emotional trauma and desparation that she feels.  Just like Willow and magic, it's their own negative forces that are the problem.


SPIKE: I may be dirt ... but you're the one who likes to roll in it, Slayer. You never had it so good as me. Never.

BUFFY: Uhh, you're bent.

SPIKE: Yeah, and it made you scream, didn't it?

BUFFY: (very angrily) I swear to god, if you tell *anyone* about last night, I will kill you.

SPIKE: Right. (pulling her underwear out of his pocket) You're gonna want these, too?(she punches him)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 04 2009 03:47 pm   #13Spikez_tart
Sex is often equated with death - this is a constant throughout the show.

When you kiss me, I wanna die  (Buffy to Angel - Reptile Boy)
If I kiss you it'll make the sun go down.   (Riley to Buffy - Hush)
The sun sets and she appears. (Spike to Buffy - OMWF)

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 04 2009 04:43 pm   #14sosa lola

The time to do something about Willow was after Tabula Rasa when she'd injured and endangered them all, yet only Tara acted.

Tara didn't break up with Willow for Willow, she broke up with Willow for herself (I don't blame her, she has the right to leave if the relationship isn't working anymore.)

So, no one really acted for Willow. None of them did a thing. The only one who spoke the truth to Willow was Anya, and sadly Willow and Anya aren't close, so Anya's words aren't enough to wake up Willow. She needs to hear it straight from her best friends. After all, Xander was the one to wake her up in Grave.

Buffy and Xander are obviously concerned about Willow's use of magic, but they did NOTHING to help her. They just let her be.


I also think Xander gets uncomfortable not just with Anya's tactless manner, but with her refusal to ignore problems and let them fester in the approved scoobie manner.

I'm not sure I understand you here. Xander was uncomfortable with how Anya tactlessly approached Willow, I never got the idea that he doesn't want her to express her opinion. He usually gets uncomfortable when she says stupid stuff or talks about their sex life. Other times, he gets really proud and happy when she brings something clever to the table.

Jan 04 2009 08:38 pm   #15nmcil
Not so sure that what the writers are imply  "drugs=magic=bad"  - but that the character of Willow and her issues of control and power and how she wants to control the pain in her life are the problem.  It is not that magic is intrinsically a bad thing but how she uses it.  Her problems in life and magic have progressed from the eradication of her pain with the breakup with OZ to a much greater danger level, one that now sees magic as a power to control other people.  Her final phase will go from her individual pain toward the revenge for her pain and then the ultimate control of all the world.  Magic, like all drugs, is not the real problem and issue, it is the use and the personal traumas of the abuser that make the greater danger.  Willow, Buffy and Spike all suffer from fundamental character traits long established in the series. 

Pain, dogma, love,passions, life experiences, loss, individual self-created realities, all are mixed together and are the motivations that, IMHO, control all these three characters, as well as Xander and Anya but to a lesser degree, throughout the season.  These parts of the characters have always been there, but in this season of struggle, chaos and growth - having to survive their individual trials and find new hopes and paths is the arc. 

People have very ugly demons that they live with and hide and try to control and ultimately must conquer or learn how to balance their power if they have any chance at living their time on this earth without falling into and being consumed by all the pain and suffering that must be lived with as part of the human existence.  Just as Willow wants all the love and joy that comes with OZ - she also had to accept the pain that came with his loss.  Buffy wants to feel and uses Spike as her conduit, but corrupts everything because she is still chained to her past history and dogma, Spike has all this love to give, but it too is corrupted by allowing his own value as a man and sentient being to be compromised by his desperate desire to experience that love with a woman that will not respect or return that love. 

Being a "good man and good person" is finally not about being able to love, to feel, to make connections but how one does them - how one can love with feeling but with also respect and honor for the people the love - but it also is about how you can try to understand and live with all those other people that are not part of your immediate and small world.  Not all human are good and not all demons are bad and a soul is only as good as the grace and contents that form and guide its physical manifestation.

As long as Buffy can title Spike as not a man and a disgusting thing she can do anything to that object
As long as Tara is seen as something to be controlled for the needs and desires of Willow - her magic will be black magic and a negative force.
As long as Spike is given over to loving another person to the extent of the destruction of his self respect and value; love too will be wrong.
As long as Xander and Anya were unable to accept and try to understand and balance their past history, it was better not to marry.

Looked at the episodes again and with  all the destruction and violence in "Smashed" and "Wrecked" when Buffy and Spike look at each other when they do actually engage sexually, there is not anger or hatred in their faces and looks - their seems to be only sense of awe and longing for each other. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 04 2009 08:52 pm   #16Scarlet Ibis
As long as Buffy can title Spike as not a man and a disgusting thing she can do anything to that object As long as Tara is seen as something to be controlled for the needs and desires of Willow - her magic will be black magic and a negative force. As long as Spike is given over to loving another person to the extent of the destruction of his self respect and value; love too will be wrong. As long as Xander and Anya were unable to accept and try to understand and balance their past history, it was better not to marry.
Wow.  Very well put.  That really is the long and short of it, put in the most awesome of ways.  Bravo.

there is not anger or hatred in their faces and looks - their seems to be only sense of awe and longing for each other.
I'd definitely say that for Spike, but I honestly can't put my finger on Buffy's expression.  Shock, initially, but the awe and longing I think was owned by Spike in that moment.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 04 2009 09:01 pm   #17nmcil
                

Here are images just before Buffy kisses him and one just after they start to having sex - If the writers were going for "bad destructive sex" I my opinion what the actors convey is not in the way of "ugly, dirty, disgusting."  - It could be that I want to see these images as two people that can love each other and not two people who are filled with hatred, anger and violence - what do the rest of you see?


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 04 2009 09:18 pm   #18Scarlet Ibis
Spike is definitely all with the shock, longing and awe.  You only see a quarter of Buffy's face in the second screencap, but what I got from that moment was shock and "Oh" once she finally started moving up and down.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 05 2009 01:44 am   #19Guest
Yeah, she totally has pleasure face once she starts moving on him, and she also meets his eyes straight on when she starts to move, and has this almost smile. Buffy very deliberately makes a point of "yes, I'm having sex with you now" as soon as she sunk down on him, with the eye contact and very deliberate movements. Then Spike recovers from shock and starts participating.

CM
Jan 05 2009 01:49 am   #20Spikez_tart
It could be that I want to see these images as two people that can love each other and not two people who are filled with hatred, anger and violence - what do the rest of you see?  Buffy's mouth is hanging open like she's just had a religious experience.  Also a couple of secs later she kisses him again in a very tender, loving way.  What the actors are doing doesn't show hatred and anger at all in my opinion.

Tara didn't break up with Willow for Willow, she broke up with Willow for herself - agreed that she did the right thing, but I think part of it for her was to shake some sense into Willow, just because she's a very giving person.  Giles is the only one that can really help Willow, and he's gone by this point and ignored it when he was around.

Xander was uncomfortable with how Anya tactlessly approached Willow, I never got the idea that he doesn't want her to express her opinion. Xander does disapprove of Anya saying something.  He cuts her off frequently and it's not just when she's blabbing on about their sexlife:

ANYA: Oh, for crying out loud. This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. (pauses, smiles) Except me. (looks at Xander) Is this that thing I do that you were commenting- (Xander nods)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 05 2009 01:57 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
He cuts her off frequently and it's not just when she's blabbing on about their sexlife
He doesn't always have to cut her off though.  It's like Anya's a trained dog sometimes, looking to Xander for confirmation.  Like in TR, she says something like, "Well I was just saying what we were all thinking.  Isn't that right baby?"  And Xander goes on to tell her that she has many great qualities or something.

I really wish Anya had said in that moment, "Well...so!  I have an opinion, and it is my right as an American to say it."  Wishful thinking I know--it's done
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 06 2009 02:50 am   #22Spikez_tart
Anya's a trained dog sometimes - yeah, and that's creepy.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?