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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Tabula Rasa - more thoughts
Jan 25 2009 01:32 am #1Spikez_tart
Hi all - I started another thread since the other one was so long.
We often think of a Tabula Rasa as a slate wiped clean, but really its more of a slate erased with chalk gunk still stuck on it. I think the writers use "gunk" to show the current status of the relationships between all the characters. Right after the gang wakes up brain wiped, you get an emotional snap shot of who's close to who, etc. as follows:
Buffy only identifies with Dawn, her sister and Spike. She pretty much ignores everyone else. Her identification with Dawn is not so surprising, since she's a pretty, younger girl, but look at Spike in that ridiculous outfit. He's argumentative, semi-obnoxious and "randy." In terms of physical strength, there's no reason to choose him over Xander, who is actually bigger and appears stronger. Buffy must feel some sort of psychic connection to him. Next, the gang opens the door to a gang of monsters and Buffy is scared like all the rest. I take this to mean that she's frightened every damn day and puts on an attitude of cool. Next she discovers she's "wicked strong." She's excited and happy about that. Not the usual emotional reaction there. When "Randy" turns into a vampire, she's frightened and runs away, but later talks to him and straddles him on the ground. She could kill him then, but doesn't. Instead she lets him explain how he's on the side of good, blah blah blah (obviously been watching those Angel Investigations commercials.) She's frightened of him and dubious of his claims to goodness, but accepts that he's on her side.
Spike identifies with Buffy, of course, and Giles. He resents Anya's relationship with Giles (what's that all about?) and ignores everyone else, including Anya who flirts with him. He repeats all the Angel ideas, showing his own desire to become one of the white hats (and not just because of his love for Buffy?) and his belief in his destiny.
Dawn relates to Buffy. No real connection with any of the rest. Giles and Anya couple up and annoy each other for the rest of the spell. Giles reciprocates Spike's identification (this is a mystery to me, given Giles's hot and cold relationship with Spike, but whatever.) Xander tries to make a connection with Willow, but Willow rejects him and latches on to Tara. Xander ends up being pretty much the odd man out with no connection to anyone, including Anya. He takes on a leader's role, but he is very much alone. Tara accepts and reciprocates Willow's lust.
Here's what I find interesting. Buffy has no connection with Giles, Xander or Willow, supposedly the closest people in her life. In a sense, she rejects all of them in favor of Spike. At this point I don't think Buffy considers Willow to be her friend. They've grown apart, the business with the back from the dead spell is still festering, and I think Buffy is looking completely outside the group. High school is definitely over.
We often think of a Tabula Rasa as a slate wiped clean, but really its more of a slate erased with chalk gunk still stuck on it. I think the writers use "gunk" to show the current status of the relationships between all the characters. Right after the gang wakes up brain wiped, you get an emotional snap shot of who's close to who, etc. as follows:
Buffy only identifies with Dawn, her sister and Spike. She pretty much ignores everyone else. Her identification with Dawn is not so surprising, since she's a pretty, younger girl, but look at Spike in that ridiculous outfit. He's argumentative, semi-obnoxious and "randy." In terms of physical strength, there's no reason to choose him over Xander, who is actually bigger and appears stronger. Buffy must feel some sort of psychic connection to him. Next, the gang opens the door to a gang of monsters and Buffy is scared like all the rest. I take this to mean that she's frightened every damn day and puts on an attitude of cool. Next she discovers she's "wicked strong." She's excited and happy about that. Not the usual emotional reaction there. When "Randy" turns into a vampire, she's frightened and runs away, but later talks to him and straddles him on the ground. She could kill him then, but doesn't. Instead she lets him explain how he's on the side of good, blah blah blah (obviously been watching those Angel Investigations commercials.) She's frightened of him and dubious of his claims to goodness, but accepts that he's on her side.
Spike identifies with Buffy, of course, and Giles. He resents Anya's relationship with Giles (what's that all about?) and ignores everyone else, including Anya who flirts with him. He repeats all the Angel ideas, showing his own desire to become one of the white hats (and not just because of his love for Buffy?) and his belief in his destiny.
Dawn relates to Buffy. No real connection with any of the rest. Giles and Anya couple up and annoy each other for the rest of the spell. Giles reciprocates Spike's identification (this is a mystery to me, given Giles's hot and cold relationship with Spike, but whatever.) Xander tries to make a connection with Willow, but Willow rejects him and latches on to Tara. Xander ends up being pretty much the odd man out with no connection to anyone, including Anya. He takes on a leader's role, but he is very much alone. Tara accepts and reciprocates Willow's lust.
Here's what I find interesting. Buffy has no connection with Giles, Xander or Willow, supposedly the closest people in her life. In a sense, she rejects all of them in favor of Spike. At this point I don't think Buffy considers Willow to be her friend. They've grown apart, the business with the back from the dead spell is still festering, and I think Buffy is looking completely outside the group. High school is definitely over.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 25 2009 02:32 am #2Scarlet Ibis
In terms of physical strength, there's no reason to choose him over Xander, who is actually bigger and appears stronger. Buffy must feel some sort of psychic connection to him.
She actually wants to protect Spike. When the vamps get through the door, and one of them picks her up, holding her, she doesn't try to break free until "Randy" is in danger. She appoints herself as his protector.
Spike identifies with Buffy, of course, and Giles. He resents Anya's relationship with Giles (what's that all about?)
Well I don't know, I'm not sure anyone would be too comfortable with their parent dating someone who is their age or younger. He also complains about Giles not showing him any affection. In the real world with Spike and Giles, we know that they haven't (more than likely) had a father/son bonding moment beyond the realms of this episode. In "Something Blue," under the spell, Spike was all about family. ( "It's almost like you're my father in law, isn't it?"--another instance where (a non spell influenced) Giles was not showing much love to his "son." ). So, if there's residual/subconscious things at work, I'm sure Spike could sense the lack of fatherly affection.
Giles reciprocates Spike's identification (this is a mystery to me, given Giles's hot and cold relationship with Spike, but whatever.)
He accepts Spike's assessment without question. Actually, we've seen this before. Many times. And it's Giles who initially suggests a kin relationship. Spike viewing Giles as father like, and also someone he lived with for a considerable amount of time, calls this other "ruggedly handsome" British man father. That wasn't a stretch for me. I did find it odd that Xander had no connection with anyone, really. He doesn't even really suggest a connection to Willow ( "Maybe I have a brother, and you go out with him." ), but kind of just...goes with it. "Okay--she's my gf. Whatever."
They've grown apart, the business with the back from the dead spell is still festering, and I think Buffy is looking completely outside the group.
Until she remembers everything, unfortunately. She was desperately trying to hold on to a person who didn't exist anymore.
Good post ;)
She actually wants to protect Spike. When the vamps get through the door, and one of them picks her up, holding her, she doesn't try to break free until "Randy" is in danger. She appoints herself as his protector.
Spike identifies with Buffy, of course, and Giles. He resents Anya's relationship with Giles (what's that all about?)
Well I don't know, I'm not sure anyone would be too comfortable with their parent dating someone who is their age or younger. He also complains about Giles not showing him any affection. In the real world with Spike and Giles, we know that they haven't (more than likely) had a father/son bonding moment beyond the realms of this episode. In "Something Blue," under the spell, Spike was all about family. ( "It's almost like you're my father in law, isn't it?"--another instance where (a non spell influenced) Giles was not showing much love to his "son." ). So, if there's residual/subconscious things at work, I'm sure Spike could sense the lack of fatherly affection.
Giles reciprocates Spike's identification (this is a mystery to me, given Giles's hot and cold relationship with Spike, but whatever.)
He accepts Spike's assessment without question. Actually, we've seen this before. Many times. And it's Giles who initially suggests a kin relationship. Spike viewing Giles as father like, and also someone he lived with for a considerable amount of time, calls this other "ruggedly handsome" British man father. That wasn't a stretch for me. I did find it odd that Xander had no connection with anyone, really. He doesn't even really suggest a connection to Willow ( "Maybe I have a brother, and you go out with him." ), but kind of just...goes with it. "Okay--she's my gf. Whatever."
They've grown apart, the business with the back from the dead spell is still festering, and I think Buffy is looking completely outside the group.
Until she remembers everything, unfortunately. She was desperately trying to hold on to a person who didn't exist anymore.
Good post ;)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Thanks for starting the new thread -
I absolutely loved Giles and Randy/Spike in this episode - they made the entire first scene for me. Giles and Anya also were great together and I loved their Magic Book Maddness Scene. I wish that the writers had taken these two characters and put them together instead of Anya and Xander, I think they are wonderful together.
Giles and Randy/Spike even for all their snippy comments end up playing out the classic Father-Son symbol of connection with their hug. TR shows so much of Spike's intrinsic character traits and emotional needs and desires - he follows and accepts Joan as leader and fights right along her side. While both have lost their memories, their instincts are the same; same with the other characters except with the interesting combination of Giles-Anya-Xander.
One idea that I place with Giles and Anya together is for the metaphor of Parent-Child separation - While it is true that Giles and Anya are never together as lovers, Giles has always been the father figure of the series. Giles could be seen as both metaphor of Father-Childhood rite of passage and Anya, as lover and fiance to Giles, could be the theme of how wrong the Xander-Anya relationship is and what their future will be.
This is one of my all time favorite episodes - I loved everything from the Shark monsters of the deep imagery to the wonderful changed but not so changed characters to the heart break ending.
Of course the magic goes all wrong - magic and easy answers and delusions and denials only bring more chaos and pain into your life - the monsters of the deep have to be faced, fought, and controlled or conquered if there is any hope and chance of living your life without its total collapse into ruin and suffering. This battle is what all the Season Six characters have to face and live through.
It is an interesting combination of seeing TR together with CWDP, Sleeper and NLM - brings in a lot of connections between Buffy-Spike and Willow-Tara. Where TR made for Magical Clean Slate, the other episodes are the characters in their actual new slates - slates that they actually are creating for themselves by their own hard fought struggles.
I absolutely loved Giles and Randy/Spike in this episode - they made the entire first scene for me. Giles and Anya also were great together and I loved their Magic Book Maddness Scene. I wish that the writers had taken these two characters and put them together instead of Anya and Xander, I think they are wonderful together.
Giles and Randy/Spike even for all their snippy comments end up playing out the classic Father-Son symbol of connection with their hug. TR shows so much of Spike's intrinsic character traits and emotional needs and desires - he follows and accepts Joan as leader and fights right along her side. While both have lost their memories, their instincts are the same; same with the other characters except with the interesting combination of Giles-Anya-Xander.
One idea that I place with Giles and Anya together is for the metaphor of Parent-Child separation - While it is true that Giles and Anya are never together as lovers, Giles has always been the father figure of the series. Giles could be seen as both metaphor of Father-Childhood rite of passage and Anya, as lover and fiance to Giles, could be the theme of how wrong the Xander-Anya relationship is and what their future will be.
This is one of my all time favorite episodes - I loved everything from the Shark monsters of the deep imagery to the wonderful changed but not so changed characters to the heart break ending.
Of course the magic goes all wrong - magic and easy answers and delusions and denials only bring more chaos and pain into your life - the monsters of the deep have to be faced, fought, and controlled or conquered if there is any hope and chance of living your life without its total collapse into ruin and suffering. This battle is what all the Season Six characters have to face and live through.
It is an interesting combination of seeing TR together with CWDP, Sleeper and NLM - brings in a lot of connections between Buffy-Spike and Willow-Tara. Where TR made for Magical Clean Slate, the other episodes are the characters in their actual new slates - slates that they actually are creating for themselves by their own hard fought struggles.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 28 2009 03:17 am #4Spikez_tart
Giles/Spike relationship - Okay, I'm having to rethink the whole Giles/Spike thing.
I really like seeing the characters paired up differently than usual as the writers did in this episode and in Triangle and in Superstar. It's so much more fun.
Xander had no connection with anyone, really. He doesn't even really suggest a connection to Willow - that is really sad.
- In SB, Buffy, while taunting Spike, suggests he doesn't want them to let him go. And, it's mostly Giles that is keeping Spike at that point. Then, as above, the spell kicks in and Spike eagerly claims Giles as his his father in law. He's as happy about that relationship as he is being engaged to Buffy. Willow can't be blamed for that.
- Hush - in an early scene, we see Giles and Spike together. Giles is talking to Buffy on the phone, while Spike raids the refrigerator and complains about the lack of Weetabix. It's a very homey and companionable scene. Later, Giles tells Xander that he has to take Spike. Spike has a fit, although he complains that he doesn't want to be with Xander. Maybe he doesn't want to be away from Giles either. He definitely doesn't want to be "in the basement" which would really be a more natural place for him as he admits (Spike: Some place, you know, dark and dank. But not as dark and dank as this.) He'd prefer to be above ground (in the light?) with Giles.
- Doomed - Spike shrinks his black jeans and has to run around in Xander's baggy shorts. Later, when the gang visits the Hellmouth, Spike is wearing blue jeans. Did he borrow those from Giles? Can we say that Giles's clothes fit Spike in some metaphorical way, whether he's ready to accept it or not?
- A New Man - Spike is the only one who can "understand" Giles. He helps him, for money of course, and after teasing Giles that he's going to tattle to Buffy. The two chat and drive around together and are pretty companionable.
- The I in Team - Spike scoffs at Giles's suggestion that he become a good guy, but when the Initiative tags him with a tracer, he runs to Giles. He could go to Buffy's dorm room, she never 'locked' him out after Willow invited him in, but he doesn't. Run to Daddy when you're in trouble?
- Restless - Spike appears with Giles in Xander's dream (Xander's recognition that the two are connected by Watcherness? Also, they are playing together) and Spike appears in Giles's dream showing off and mocking movie vampires.
I really like seeing the characters paired up differently than usual as the writers did in this episode and in Triangle and in Superstar. It's so much more fun.
Xander had no connection with anyone, really. He doesn't even really suggest a connection to Willow - that is really sad.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 28 2009 03:40 am #5Scarlet Ibis
Later, when the gang visits the Hellmouth, Spike is wearing blue jeans. Did he borrow those from Giles?
Doubtful. Giles is too tall, and Xander's too wide. Maybe they just bought him a new pair? They were buying him everything else.
Giles is talking to Buffy on the phone, while Spike raids the refrigerator and complains about the lack of Weetabix.
You know, he says "we're" and not "you're out of of Weetabix." You make a lot of good Spike and Giles points I haven't really considered (maybe subconsciously, but still).
Spike scoffs at Giles's suggestion that he become a good guy, but when the Initiative tags him with a tracer, he runs to Giles. He could go to Buffy's dorm room, she never 'locked' him out after Willow invited him in, but he doesn't. Run to Daddy when you're in trouble?
Well, he knows the Initiative is by the dorms (underneath or whatever), and Giles would be more inclined to help him over Buffy at that point anyway. But then, I think I do prefer the idea of him running to Giles and his father figure-ness :P
complains that Giles was never as demonstrative in his affection to him as Buffy is to Dawn and says "How I must hate you." (I must, but I don't?) All this seems to point to the idea that Spike, like the rest of the bunch, has been abandoned by his father, who is never seen or mentioned.
Well, William was definitely a mama's boy, though the abandonment of his father could have been due to an early death (it's what I suspect anyway). Giles does later demonstrate affection though--before Randy leaves with Joan, he beckons him over for a hug. Randy is more hesitant, though I think that's possibly because the display is in front of the others, and he's supposed to be all manly (which is funny sense he's letting the shortest woman in the room tell him what to do as she protects him). The fact that Giles even called him over, for a hug no less, is very important. That must have really sucked/hurt/disappointed Spike when Giles agreed to have Spike killed in s7.
nmcil, this is one of my fave episodes as well.
Doubtful. Giles is too tall, and Xander's too wide. Maybe they just bought him a new pair? They were buying him everything else.
Giles is talking to Buffy on the phone, while Spike raids the refrigerator and complains about the lack of Weetabix.
You know, he says "we're" and not "you're out of of Weetabix." You make a lot of good Spike and Giles points I haven't really considered (maybe subconsciously, but still).
Spike scoffs at Giles's suggestion that he become a good guy, but when the Initiative tags him with a tracer, he runs to Giles. He could go to Buffy's dorm room, she never 'locked' him out after Willow invited him in, but he doesn't. Run to Daddy when you're in trouble?
Well, he knows the Initiative is by the dorms (underneath or whatever), and Giles would be more inclined to help him over Buffy at that point anyway. But then, I think I do prefer the idea of him running to Giles and his father figure-ness :P
complains that Giles was never as demonstrative in his affection to him as Buffy is to Dawn and says "How I must hate you." (I must, but I don't?) All this seems to point to the idea that Spike, like the rest of the bunch, has been abandoned by his father, who is never seen or mentioned.
Well, William was definitely a mama's boy, though the abandonment of his father could have been due to an early death (it's what I suspect anyway). Giles does later demonstrate affection though--before Randy leaves with Joan, he beckons him over for a hug. Randy is more hesitant, though I think that's possibly because the display is in front of the others, and he's supposed to be all manly (which is funny sense he's letting the shortest woman in the room tell him what to do as she protects him). The fact that Giles even called him over, for a hug no less, is very important. That must have really sucked/hurt/disappointed Spike when Giles agreed to have Spike killed in s7.
nmcil, this is one of my fave episodes as well.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Excellent Post - great new perspectives from Scarlet Ibis and Spikez_tart both -
Thing I like most was how much the memory lost still reflected the inner character traits - particularly with Buffy, Spike and Giles. Love Buffy taking on the name Joan - another female general - and Randy/Spike coming in with his costume of incognito - wonderful use transference of words and costume and purpose.
You can't help but feel sorry for Buffy and Spike at the end - both with so much need to experience a deep love in their lives and how it all gets thrown away. Especially when you connect this episode with her encounter with Holden Webster and their conversation in her bedroom during Never Leave Me. Another great use of words with use of weaning Spike off humans and they very next thing Buffy does is feed him from that bag that does so much suggest exactly a man/child feed from his mother's milk. Buffy takes on the role of Giles as the parent giving Spike the support and free will to find and make his own new man.
One thing with Xander being alone in TR is that he does end up alone for the rest of the series - was also very interesting how they gave bring in his insecurities, which is just what makes the breakup with Anya. In some respect Willow and Xander are connected - both lose their the people they love.
Randy by the way means wolf and protector - how's that for pairing up Joan and Randy and wonderful use of words - I Loved This Show
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2009 04:02 am #7Spikez_tart
Doubtful. Giles is too tall, and Xander's too wide. Maybe they just bought him a new pair? - No fair. You're being logical now.
Giles would be more inclined to help him - Spike runs to Giles' place in Pangs, too. He argues with Buffy to get Giles to let him in. The scene cuts and you can't tell whether Buffy persuades Giles to let Spike in or not.
the abandonment of his father could have been due to an early death - that would be too easy for JW. I bet there's some snotty backstory out there that never got revealed. Unless children whose parents die when they are young feel their parents have abandoned them?
memory lost still reflected the inner character traits - This was such a cool show for this reason.
next thing Buffy does is feed him from that bag that does so much suggest exactly a man/child feed from his mother's milk. - I have always found that scene to be DEEPLY disturbing. It's like Buffy is standing in for his non-nursing/nurturing mother. Not the sort of thing you'd want your lover to think about you.
Randy by the way means wolf and protector - William means "I will protect." So Spike does figure out his real name. Not to mention his entire lack of sexual activity. :)
Giles would be more inclined to help him - Spike runs to Giles' place in Pangs, too. He argues with Buffy to get Giles to let him in. The scene cuts and you can't tell whether Buffy persuades Giles to let Spike in or not.
the abandonment of his father could have been due to an early death - that would be too easy for JW. I bet there's some snotty backstory out there that never got revealed. Unless children whose parents die when they are young feel their parents have abandoned them?
memory lost still reflected the inner character traits - This was such a cool show for this reason.
next thing Buffy does is feed him from that bag that does so much suggest exactly a man/child feed from his mother's milk. - I have always found that scene to be DEEPLY disturbing. It's like Buffy is standing in for his non-nursing/nurturing mother. Not the sort of thing you'd want your lover to think about you.
Randy by the way means wolf and protector - William means "I will protect." So Spike does figure out his real name. Not to mention his entire lack of sexual activity. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 30 2009 08:06 am #8TammyDevil666
Is there a way to get rid of all the trolls in here? If you can't log in, then you shouldn't be posting. I think it needs to be members only or something.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jan 30 2009 10:38 pm #9Spikez_tart
Tammy D - some of the members like to respond at work and don't want (can't?) log in, hence the troglodyte above was able to sneak in.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 31 2009 02:22 am #10slaymesoftly
Moderator
I can delete him, I think, but only Dia can ban him. I've alerted her, but it depends of when she checks her emails.
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I am upper management.
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Jan 31 2009 05:10 am #11Guest
Guest
I am really sorry but what i post it was just my opinion, if some din´t like it I am sorry but its that the reason to post comments and have this discusion, to give your opinion? well I think that in this forum is not.
Jan 31 2009 07:04 am #12TammyDevil666
I'm sorry, but how is "fuck you" an opinion? There was no reason for that.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Feb 01 2009 04:41 am #13slaymesoftly
Moderator
Guest, your posts were deleted because of the language, the difficulty we had understanding them, and the ranting attitude. Differences of opinion are welcome, but they must be civil and related to the topic. This is a Spuffy site, so anything that unpleasant that is directed at those of us who are Spuffy shippers is not going to be welcome. And, if it's vulgar, rude and is upsetting regular forum members, then it's going to be deleted.
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