BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Dead Things

Feb 08 2009 07:49 pm   #1Spikez_tart

 
Dead Things is about trust (duh) and also about refusal or acceptance when one character reaches out to another.

In the initial scene, Buffy and Spike are having crazy sex and afterwards have a rare conversation.  Buffy mentions that she likes the way he's fixed up his place and doesn't even get huffy when he mentions eating a decorator.  She's beginning to accept Spike the way he is, even if she doesn't want to admit that they could be anything more than sex partners.  At least she's admitting that they are ongoing sex partners, which she hadn't previously.   Spike asks Buffy to trust him when he holds up the handcuffs.  She refuses him and says never, but in the next scene, she's talking to Tara and rubbing her wrists and later, in the Bronze:

BUFFY: (contrite) I'm sorry I haven't been around that much.
WILLOW: No, that's not -- it's okay. We know you've been all tied up.
Buffy startles at this, looking guilty.

It seems that Buffy in fact did trust Spike enough to let him handcuff her and while she may be having second thoughts (is this what prompts her to talk to Tara?  She's known that Spike can hurt her for some time, but only asks Tara to check the spell now?)  and is worried that the gang is going to find out.  Still, she ends up in the balcony with Spike (one of the only times they meet each other on an upper level instead of a basement or a crypt?)  So Acceptance - Trust?- Refusal - Trust.  She shows more trust later when she lets Spike handle things after Katrina's death.  Then, when he tries to talk her out of going to the police, and shows that he's not really as morally developed as she'd perhaps hoped, she refuses him and loses trust.

Andrew/Jonathan/Warren - Andrew complains that Jonathan is touching his junk and says "How can I trust you not to touch my stuff?"  Jonathan then tries to curse him.  After Katrina's death, Jonathan, who isn't quite as bad as the rest, can no longer trust them.  He sarcastically comments that the night is young and they can find another girl to kill.  He has probably just signed his death warrant, although it will be some time coming.

Warren/Katrina - Warren, magic balls in his pants (oh brother), approaches Katrina in a bar.  He wants to talk to her, possibly apologize and get back together with her.   His words are clumsy and annoying.  She refuses because she can't trust him.  She doesn't accept that he could have made a mistake or put together the robot out of loneliness and need and won't give him the chance to explain.  Her refusal to trust or accept leads to her death at Warren's hands when he is infuriated at her rejection.  (Spike unlike Warren doesn't get infuriated at Buffy's rejection, which leaves their relationship open to continue.)

Buffy/Dawn - When Buffy comes to explain to Dawn that she's going to jail, Dawn doesn't trust Buffy's explanation and rejects her.  She also rejects Buffy earlier when she prefers to spend time with her friend. 
Buffy/Tara - Buffy refuses to accept Tara's confirmation that the spell was not wrong and there is nothing wrong with her.  There's no reason for Buffy not to trust Tara, it's herself that she cannot accept or trust. 

Best scene in show - when Buffy and Spike are standing on the opposite sides of his crypt door.  Their hands would be touching, but there is a heavy barrier that keeps them from coming together. 

Dream Scene - Buffy dreams of Katrina, but when Katrina opens her eyes, they are bright blue like Spike's.  (I think Katrina has brown eyes, from what I could see in the photos.)  Buffy equates her sexually enslaving Spike with her (supposed) murder of Katrina.  Its interesting that her guilt over her treatment of Spike, as reflected in her dream, makes her decide to turn herself in to the police. 

Spike's fighting - Spike is no longer a bumbling and comic fighter as before.  He thrusts his hand through a demon's chest (and presumably rips its heart out?).  He does (predictably) botch disposing of Katrina's body.  I'm sure there's some deep symbolism of Spike throwing the body into the river instead of burying it in the woods. 

Ew moment - who has sex under rugs.  Please.  That's just gross.


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 08 2009 09:39 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis

 
It seems that Buffy in fact did trust Spike enough to let him handcuff her and while she may be having second thoughts (is this what prompts her to talk to Tara? She's known that Spike can hurt her for some time, but only asks Tara to check the spell now?) and is worried that the gang is going to find out.
My guess is that Spike went first.  I don't get the "second thoughts," though, being all dainty about it.  Her mother's used handcuffs, and I'm almost certain that somewhere Anya has talked about kinky sex with Xander.  IMO, being all skittish about handcuffs was stupid.

Still, she ends up in the balcony with Spike (one of the only times they meet each other on an upper level instead of a basement or a crypt?
Interesting observation.  Still in the literal dark, though.  A constant war of superior and inferior--up above, but only in darkness.  Meh.

She shows more trust later when she lets Spike handle things after Katrina's death.
I think that was more "too stunned to act" more than anything.  If she was truly content on trusting Spike, she wouldn't have tried to turn herself in.

Spike unlike Warren doesn't get infuriated at Buffy's rejection, which leaves their relationship open to continue.
Actually, I've seen compare/contrast musings on Spike representing Katrina, and Warren as Buffy.  Inversions and mirrors--Spike echoing Faith in s3 with Buffy echoing Faith in s4...I can't even begin to explain.  I'll link instead here and here instead.

I'm sure there's some deep symbolism of Spike throwing the body into the river instead of burying it in the woods.
I just assumed it showed Spike is not used to disposing of bodies.  At the very least, he could have weighed it down.  Surely Spike's seen that done in a movie...I think what it boils down to, if it has to mean something, is that Spike cannot save Buffy.  He tries, and he tries, and he tries, and nothing works.  He can't.  But he also can't give up, which is why he was waiting in that alley by the police station.  He knew she'd show up.  He knows Buffy better than she knows herself--her strengths and weaknesses--and it blinds him to his own.  Buffy is ultimately his strength and his weakness, which is why she thoroughly destroys him.  Spike puts too much trust/faith in Buffy.  Perhaps if he'd been wary, things would have gone differently.

"Dead Things" is interesting, full of symbolism, and disgusting all at once for me.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 09 2009 03:55 am   #3Spikez_tart

 
being all skittish about handcuffs was stupid. - well it would be if she wasn't having sex with a not necessarily totally reformed serial murderer...  Actually, I think she's more concerned about her friends finding out how kinky she is, when she's supposed to be the great, pure hero or something like that.  Or maybe she's afraid of her own demons (metaphorical?) getting let out of the box.  Her previously sexual relationships were pretty cuddly and sweet, even with that idiot Parker, but Spike is bringing out all those nasty little fantasies and stuff and it's scaring her.

He knew she'd show up. - I just figured he followed her, but I think I like this better. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 09 2009 04:10 am   #4Scarlet Ibis

 
well it would be if she wasn't having sex with a not necessarily totally reformed serial murderer... Actually, I think she's more concerned about her friends finding out how kinky she is, when she's supposed to be the great, pure hero or something like that.
That's still pretty lame though.  She'd been having sex with him for quite some time before (and come on--reformed serial murderer?  He's not a human, and human rules/standards should not apply).  And she knows that Anya and Xander have kinky sex.  Her mother and Giles had kinky sex.  Kinky sex isn't some dirty, nasty new thing.  So she's out of the realm of vanilla sex and having many satisfying orgasms--she should be happy.  That'd be a normal reaction, anyway.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 09 2009 04:35 am   #5Guest

 
Guest
When are Buffy's reactions normal? Besides, she clearly feels like she has to hold herself above what others do, as if she's supposed to be the best of humanity and not a regular, make mistakes person. Jokes are made about being put on a pedestal, but her friends do seem to hold her to a higher standard, and now she holds herself to it, too.
Feb 09 2009 11:17 am   #6nmcil

 
Just want to post a quick thought about Dead Things -  The great contrast and irony of Buffy's pleading for help and distraction in being able to reject her desire for Spike and that wonderful looking skyward as thinking that going to help the voice she hears is a salvation - when the reality is that she will be going into a deadly reality establihsed and controlled by the Nerds.  I just love all the mirror world reflections and layers of this episode.

I want to watch the episode again and post later - I think this is one of the premire episodes, not only in this season, but the entire series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 09 2009 01:18 pm   #7Spikez_tart

 
She'd been having sex with him for quite some time before (and come on--reformed serial murderer?  He's not a human, and human rules/standards should not apply).  - Yes, but she wasn't restrained and unable to protect herself if Spike decided to kick over the traces and suck her dry.  I'm not sure I agree with the "he's not a human" exactly either.  He's at least partly human and he wants to be with Buffy, so the human rules for her safety apply. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 09 2009 08:16 pm   #8Scarlet Ibis

 
Yes, but she wasn't restrained and unable to protect herself if Spike decided to kick over the traces and suck her dry.
But we know that's not going to happen.  If Spike wanted to kill her, he's had plenty of time to do it.  Not to mention she's stronger than him--those handcuffs would have held him a lot longer than they would have held her, and my guess is he went first.

I'm not sure I agree with the "he's not a human" exactly either. He's at least partly human and he wants to be with Buffy, so the human rules for her safety apply.
How is he at least partly human?  Besides looking like one, that is.  And her safety is never an issue.  If it was, her being in danger would be her fault for not doing anything about it.  If it was, then she really did have a death wish. But she knew Spike wasn't going to kill her, just like she wasn't going to kill him.  It was never even a possibility for Spike at that point.  The chip leashed him, sure, but his love caged him in.  Chip functioning or not, he hasn't had the desire to kill her since "Out of My Mind."
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 10 2009 03:50 am   #9Spikez_tart

 
Don't you think Buffy gets a little scary thrill out of knowing Spike just might ...  Hell, Angel almost killed her, and not when he was bad either.  He was only sick and the whole overwhelming sexual power thing made him suck her nearly bone dry.  I seem to remember Buffy crushing a metal vase or something and kicking a chair to pieces.  She found that whole biting thing very exciting.

I know Spike wouldn't , but it's more fun if there's just a possiblity.  The fact that Spike doesn't have sex with Buffy until he figures out that he can physically hurt her is a tip off too that there's a current of danger.   The smirk on his face when he founds out, shows that he's thinking of doing some rough stuff.
 
Besides, consider the Buffybot program (Spike had to have written this whole scenario):

SPIKE: (quietly) You know I can't [bite] you.  (The transcript site has lie, but that makes no sense.) 
BUFFYBOT: I think you can. I think you can if I let you, and I want to let you. I want you to bite me and devour me until there's no more.
SPIKE: (smiles) Like this?

Spike might have gone first in the handcuff kinkyness, but it was Buffy who was rubbing her wrists and getting all nervous. 



If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 10 2009 04:15 am   #10Scarlet Ibis

 
SPIKE: (quietly) You know I can't [bite] you. 
BUFFYBOT: I think you can. I think you can if I let you, and I want to let you. I want you to bite me and devour me until there's no more.
SPIKE: (smiles) Like this?
Yeah, but he just gave the bot a regular love bite.  He was tender and caring with the bot...  If Buffy wanted to be in danger, then that's her hang up/problem, and not Spike's.  And Buffy being all nervous?  That's cause she's a weirdo lame.  There's no other legitimate explanation.  The rough sex was more her than him anyway, which makes her nervousness all the more retarded.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 10 2009 06:10 am   #11nmcil

 
Another very interesting part of all this is the whole deal with Handcuff-Katrina-Sex Slave-Buffy.  All this, IMVHO, is the mirror world reflection of Buffy's mind - it is Katrina/Spike in Handcuff that is staked and who we see in handcuff is not Buffy, but Spike.  While later we see that it is Buffy, that once again is in the position of participant, Spike-Katrina play the same role, only as inversions.  Katrina is the Real Time sex slave of the Nerds and Spike plays the Sex Toy/Slave to Buffy.  Buffy clearly states, even against the obvious pleasure and friendly connection that is established in their first scene, that there is nothing else other than this - SEX.  There will be no love or affection tolerated in their relationship - Buffy cannot allow for anything outside of the objectification of Spike without having to recognize and accepted that she too has the same darkness of his vampiric qualities.  I think that is why the word Spike uses to describe her part of their supreme sexual pleasure as "animal" - because it is Buffy at a primal state, pure desire and passion, with no bullshit, no denial.  This is why she breaks down with her last scene with Tara and why she insist that no mercy or forgiveness be offered and given - it would insist that she accept that face of ugly darkness and desire that Spike represents.  The Balcony scene, has nothing to do with Spike, IMVHO, it has all to do with Buffy - those are Buffy thoughts and her chaotic perceptions - why his call to make her stop him is so important.  Buffy's desperate call to another power to help her keep away from her passions and need for Spike is the very thing that leads her into the hands of her real enemy; Warren.  A more perfect song could not have been used to describe her state of mental turmoil, or what she is doing to both of them and to Dawn as well - the two people who love Buffy and need her. 

Dawn wears the symbols of her broken heart, both in their opening scene and in their bedroom scene - IMO Dawn has it just right - and while I do not suggest that it is right that Buffy not take responsibility for her imagined killing of Katrina, she clearly wants to be punished - she even whispers to herself that she will at least do one thing right.  Plus Buffy very quickly changes all her gears as soon as she hears the name of the victim.  Considering all the trauma and brutality she has just experienced and perputrated, it is an extraordinarily quick change of emotional state.  The same easy change is displayed with her last  words to Dawn - Buffy acts like it was no big thing for Dawn to believe that her sister was going to abandon her, leave her role as Dawn's prime caretaker. 

This episode is so splendid, everything from the nerds and Xander wearing those retro clothes with bowling alley theme, retro dance style that the Scoobies dance at The Bronze that  match the lyrics of the song to the.  Spike's pattern shirt and Dawn's little heart necklace and sleepwear and Buffy, once again wears the brown-black colors,  So far, it seems that Buffy always wears variations of brown-black when she has a violent physical encounter or a violent emotional confrontation with Spike along with the blue jacket from Smashed -   You will notice that Spike's red shirt, from the first kiss in OMWF is part of the clothing toss on the floor from their first scene. 

Another thing, one which the writers may not think is relevant, but which I think is if we are to consider all the trauma and emotional chaos  of Buffy - Buffy very readily accepted the possible killing of another human  before with Faith.  All this "I killed a girl" and I have to be responsible has a very different perspective and quality for the character.  In one instance, there is no quilt associated with a potential death and in this one, all her life seems to be connected - the main difference seems to be the state of mind - the choices and reality that Buffy creates for herself.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 10 2009 12:29 pm   #12Arielle

 
Wait a second, I thought she was hiding her wrist because he bit her there??
Feb 10 2009 12:33 pm   #13Diabola

 
Moderator
Huh? Where did you get that idea? Biting during sex is not even canon as far as I remember, I though it was clear the hiding her wrist thing was about the marks from the handcuffs.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Feb 10 2009 12:53 pm   #14slaymesoftly

 
Moderator
Dia!  *hugs*
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 10 2009 04:28 pm   #15BecomingChosenGirl13

 
Wait a second, I thought she was hiding her wrist because he bit her there??

Nope, i`m pretty sure that`s cos they were all tied up ;).
Feb 10 2009 04:53 pm   #16TammyDevil666

 
As far as we know, Spike never bit her.  That was just proof of how kinky their sex was, I believe it was because the handcuffs probably left marks.  So, I guess she did somewhat trust him, then.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Feb 10 2009 08:15 pm   #17nmcil

 
I think  that is why we see Katrina in handcuffs connected with the Spike handcuffs and Buffy driving that stake into the heart - Plus this episode also connects  the next birthday episode with Dawn and the vengeance demon and it brings in the connections of hurting the one you love, which is the prime action in this season, and the ending season arc between Buffy and Spike with his attempted rape theme introduced with Katrina.  Warren-Katrina also has the first suggestions of the Buffy leaving Spike in AYW and his own attempted rape in Seeing Red.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 11 2009 03:24 am   #18Spikez_tart

 
If Buffy wanted to be in danger, then that's her hang up/problem, and not Spike's.  And Buffy being all nervous?  That's cause she's a weirdo lame.  - Agreed agreed :)

Wait a second, I thought she was hiding her wrist because he bit her there??  I like it!

Why does Buffy want to punish herself?  Just because she's having thermonuclear sex with Spike and she doesn't love him? 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 11 2009 04:33 am   #19nmcil

 
Frankly - I never figured out why the writers insist on playing the theme that Spike cannot be loved by Buffy or why she has such a deep anger and disgust about having feelings for him.  Spike is totally capable of showing a deep and unfailing love for her, he is willing to endure the great torture from Glory for her and Dawn and he is willing to sacrifice and attempts to make big changes in his life.  Sure, he made mistakes, as did all the other characters, that is the model for all of them - they all screwed up royally.  It is Buffy herself that repeats over and over that Spike is everything she hates and that it is an impossibility for her to love him, or for his feelings to be real and that this "all important soul" is the ultimate defining element.    

As for the theme and symbols used in Dead Things,  and it is strictly my opinion and interpretations, that she is subconsciously using Spike and her alter ego - I rely on what she tells Tara in their last scene and what she tells Spike while she is beating him.  That is a person totally out of control - she immediately starts to attack him as soon as he mentions his love for her. 

I don't know why this treatment of their relationship is used - I was under the impression at one time from statements online that Spike was seen as the Very Worst Bad Boy symbol and that the writers wanted very much to discourage any suggestions to the  younger viewers that being in an abusive relationship was a cool thing or acceptable.  That the immense popularity of the Spike character was a big surprise and that they had this fabulously popular Bad Boy character that just kept growing and growing as a fan favorite.  Spike became  a powerful tool to explore much more adult and dark themes, but they still had the "we don't want to suggest that this type of person would be a good choice for boy friend material.  If that is the reasons for always trying to pull Spike back into his darker persona, I have no idea - it  seems  like a poor why to treat the character or the themes that were introduced with their relationship.  One huge example is the disconnect between Dead Things and Older And Faraway.  Plus, I don't think that the writers ever give an adequate explanation for Buffy's total meltdown after her resurrection.  Why does she make the connection of coming back wrong and transfer all that chaos and emotional trauma onto Spike?  How are the viewers suppose to understand all those EXTREMELY powerful emotions in the alley and the next time it's like that never even happened.  While the metaphor of unconditional love and acceptance, and in mythic symbolism of the trials of Ogre Father and Mother, do offers an explanation, IMO, the writers don't ever seem to offer explanations for her conduct and deep emotional problems -  
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 11 2009 10:47 am   #20Scarlet Ibis

 
Why does Buffy want to punish herself? Just because she's having thermonuclear sex with Spike and she doesn't love him? Frankly - I never figured out why the writers insist on playing the theme that Spike cannot be loved by Buffy or why she has such a deep anger and disgust about having feelings for him.
That was all thanks to Marti Noxon.  She had effed up relationships in her own life, and steered season 6 in that dark direction instead of getting a therapist, which is why she is referred to many as "Maudlin Noxious."  I rue the day Joss passed her the reins.

Most of Buffy's reactions in season six are OOC, yet we are forced to accept it as her character, since that was unfortunately what we were given.  If you compare the Spike/Buffy dynamic post "Intervention" to the end of s5, you'll see that her reaction to embarking on a relationship with Spike in s6 (and referring to him not being real or worthy) completely and utterly ridiculous.  She depended on him, accepted him, relied/trusted him, and defended his presence vehemently to her friends.  Season six roles around, and he truly becomes the only person she can count on.  There is no legitimate reason why she would shun him in any way (not to mention that right after she's brought back from the dead, she leaves her friends at the Magic Box to go see him for crying out loud), or her behavior of pushing him away making any iota of sense.  Buffy likes to be in a relationship, and the only reason she jumped into one with Riley in the first place was her fear of one, the "bad boy," and two, her attraction to Spike (I read somewhere that Jane Espenson had a note penned up since s3, or s4  of "Buffy had a sex dream" or sex dreams--I don't recall which--about Spike, which explains a ton).  So here we have this guy she depends on, loves her, who she's attracted to, and trusts.  There's no sane reason why they wouldn't have worked out, or why her reactions were the way they were besides the fact that the writers of the show were forced to be steered in that direction.

And using Spike as the poster boy for dark, unhealthy relationships was also utterly stupid.  Nevermind the powerful emotions that JM is able to evoke in the audience--we've seen Spike from A to Z, and we know how he feels about Buffy.  He would die for her.  We've seen him in past relationships, and what we saw in season six was not the type of relationship that he would be in.  Never before did we see him engage in rough, tear the crypt up sex.  Even with the robot, he was nothing but tender.  Or even when he was in a relationship with Harmony, someone he didn't love, he still didn't keep their relationship in the dark--everyone knew that that was his girlfriend.  She wasn't some dark, dirty secret.  So yeah, season six just made the sense that wasn't.

*steps off soap box*
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 12 2009 06:41 am   #21Guest

 
Guest
I can see Buffy double-thinking having a relationship with Spike once the apocalypse is over and she's faced with the everyday reality of adding him to her group.....she was flip-floppy with Angel in Season 2 for a long time before they got groiny, so that would make character sense. One rule from Joss was that Spike would never be seen as a good person to have around while soulless.......if Spike's fully accepted by Buffy et al without gaining a soul, they were convinced it would undermine Angel's position too much......and since he came first, Spike just had to be stuck with that. So they (Joss) knew he was going to have to search for the soul.

The problem, as Scarlet points out, was Marti's micro-management on a daily basis coming from her own (admitted) screwed up past.......and apparently, no one in the writer's room had the sense to oppose what was going on. (There are also a lot of problems that shouldn't have happened on set in S6, too, but that's not relevant to the story.) But since a famous quote of Joss' is "Continuity is for wusses," that writers' room probably enjoyed the drama more than character relevance, as well. And I know of at least a couple that took quite a while before they really understood Spike in the first place! (David Fury)

I'm sure if the writers sat down and watched this season through, like we have, they'd see the critiques are very valid, and in their heart of hearts hopefully take it as a learning experience for the work they do in the future. I know from other shows I follow now that the audience has less and less tolerance for seasons/characters that act with the sense that isn't.

CM
Feb 12 2009 07:29 am   #22Guest

 
Guest
I don't  think I will ever be able to understand or forgive that transition from "Dead Things" to "Older and Faraway."  That is one of the strangest things ever to happen in the series.  The only way that it has any logic to me is through the metaphor of "unconditional love" and mythic trials of equality and winning of worthy royal consorts.
Feb 12 2009 07:33 am   #23nmcil

 
I don't  think I will ever be able to understand or forgive that transition from "Dead Things" to "Older and Faraway."  That is one of the strangest things ever to happen in the series.  The only way that it has any logic to me is through the metaphor of "unconditional love" and mythic trials of equality and winning of worthy royal consorts.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 12 2009 12:52 pm   #24Spikez_tart

 
Spike as the poster boy for dark, unhealthy relationships was also utterly stupid - and shouldn't Buffy have been on the poster?  She's the one having sex with a guy she supposedly doesn't love, keeping secrets from her friends and beating up her boyfriend when he gets in her way. 

that transition from "Dead Things" to "Older and Faraway. - What do you mean?  It just seemed maybe awkward to me but flip flopping back and forth in usual Buffy fasion.  One day Buffy is outside his crypt touching the door with his hand (getting closer), then she's beating him up (getting further away) and the next day she's flirting with him in the hall of her house and playing cards with him and talking to Tara about him in a more positive manner (getting close again) but it looked like Buffy was accepting Spike a little more into her life.  Even the beating up incident was caused by Warren's machinations. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 12 2009 01:24 pm   #25slaymesoftly

 
Moderator
I agree that the leap from the beating in DT to OaF is a bit much. It's the reason I've got so many fics set in and around DT.  I believe something had to have happened in between DT and the following week to make them all right with each other.  If you think about the beginning of DT, Buffy and Spike are already showing some signs of having a relationship - even if Spike has to make jokes about it "Are we having a conversation?" to keep it light. The balcony scene was, in many ways, a step back for them as he makes it more about the secrecy and her body's craving for him, but the tone up until then was one of reluctant attraction and need on Buffy's part  that struck a more affectionate than sexual craving chord.  The beating was, IMHO, all about Buffy's still active depression, her reluctance to admit she could care about a soulless vamp, her desire to be punished for being not good enough to remain in Heaven, and all the other messed up things roiling her emotions that season. Although we didn't get to see it, I firmly believe that once she had time to calm down she would have been appalled at herself, very remorseful, and that she would have tried to do something to atone.  At a minimum, she would have checked on his physical condition, and in all my fics, she offers a pretty substantial emotional crumb.  Hence, by the birthday party, they've kissed and made up (so to speak - obviously Spike was going to forgive her anyway as even while she was beating him, he understood the reasons behind it), possibly worked out some issues, and are relaxed and comfortable with each other -even with the others around.  I suspect Tara's little talk may have helped, too. Asking Buffy if she loved him and telling her it was OK may have gone a long way to helping Buffy actually think the unthinkable.
I hope this makes sense. Rushing off to work and not quite awake. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 12 2009 03:16 pm   #26Guest

 
Guest
That's a pretty big something to happen offscreen, though, which is pretty bad TV if we're supposed to think it happened. That would have been HUGE for Buffy to even attempt an apology on screen!!!

CM
Feb 12 2009 05:59 pm   #27Scarlet Ibis

 
That's a pretty big something to happen offscreen, though, which is pretty bad TV if we're supposed to think it happened. That would have been HUGE for Buffy to even attempt an apology on screen!!!
Agree 110%.  I feel as if we were supposed to have been lead to believe that Buffy avoided Spike from the alley scene to the moment we see him at the party.  I mean, they could have showed something--a scene like that could have taken all of thirty seconds.  Buffy just came off as a completely unsympathetic character, who was "morally unfinished."  Yep.

and shouldn't Buffy have been on the poster? She's the one having sex with a guy she supposedly doesn't love, keeping secrets from her friends and beating up her boyfriend when he gets in her way.
Only in the eyes of people who were really watching.  By the time Maudlin and the writers realized their mistake ( "Oh noes!  Buffy's not looking too good in this piece" ), we get SR, and most didn't buy the B.S. they were selling.  But I'll wait for that thread to pop back up again.


"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 12 2009 10:13 pm   #28sosa lola

 

- Awww, this is the first time we see Buffy and Spike have a nice, casual pillow (eh… rug?) talk, which shows that Buffy started to like Spike as a person of his own, not just as a sex partner. It reminds me of the Spuffy friendship we had before the kiss in OMWF. And when he asked, "Do you even like me?" She responded, "Sometimes," which is an admission I never thought Buffy was brave enough to give at this point.

- Buffy just considered removing the New Kids on the Block posters?? She's almost twenty-one for God's sake, I got rid of my Backstreet Boys posters at seventeen. Besides, didn't Buffy have a sick face when Kathy had put up a Celine Dion poster in their dorm room? I've always thought that Buffy hated pop music and was like the "cool kids" who liked rock.

- Buffy gets offended when Spike calls her an animal, which is obviously her being upset when reminded that she did come back wrong. She's not human anymore, and Spike can only harm demons and un-human creatures, and being something other than human scares the shit out of Buffy. It makes me feel for her, because no one is there to help her cope with this… even Spike, who used to be her confidant, takes delight in her new condition, never stops reminding her that she's different, not a human anymore, a demon, which makes Buffy less open and comfortable sharing her distress with him. 

- BUFFY: You know, it's late, I-I should ... get home before Dawn goes to sleep.
SPIKE: And she's off.

Poor Dawn. Only used as a distraction or the safe word. I'm also baffled by how Spike doesn't seem to care whenever Buffy mentions Dawn. I'd have said that he considers her old enough to be alone in the house… but not so long ago when Buffy was still dead, he never left her by herself… this is why I'm thinking that once Buffy came back, no one seemed to matter to Spike anymore… no one but Buffy.

- "Do you trust me?" "Never." Apparently, Buffy does, since she'd let him handcuff her, seeing as she rubs her wrists when talking to Tara the next day.

- TARA: I knew this was gonna happen. What did Willow do now? Did she ... she hurt anyone?

Seems no one's having faith in Willow. In Gone, Willow's best friend, Xander, had accused her of turning Buffy invisible, and now Tara thinks Buffy called her because Willow messed up again.

- I think the reason Buffy went to Tara to find answers about coming back wrong instead of Willow is her not wanting to hurt Willow's feelings. It was Willow's idea to bring Buffy back, her spell and her power, so telling Willow that Spike can hurt her because Willow brought her back wrong would crush Willow to pieces.

- BUFFY: ...listen to the cars honk? (to Dawn) Where are you going?
DAWN: I'm ... sleeping over at Janice's?
BUFFY: And I'm falling for that again because of the surprise lobotomy?
WILLOW: It's okay, I checked it out. Janice's mom is picking her up.
BUFFY: Oh.
DAWN: I didn't think you'd care. You're never home, so...
BUFFY: I know. I'm sorry. You know, but I, I'm here now. All visible and everything. Couldn't you just stay at Janice's another night?
DAWN: Her mom's cooking Mexican. She's gonna teach me how to make real tortillas. (softly) Not like I knew you'd be around.

Two points:

"Willow is like a mom to me," apparently, now that Buffy is too busy having sex with Spike and Tara isn't around, Willow had stepped up and took over raising –or taking care of- Dawn, hence Willow reclaiming the "Mom" role now after she'd played it in the summer along with Tara.

Dawn had it with Buffy's resentment of life and desire to be anywhere but with Dawn, she's also tired of waiting for Buffy to arrive home so they could have a sisters' quality time, so instead of whining about it, Dawn decided to live her life. Good for you, Dawnie.

- Warren's feelings here are too twisted, he obviously has feelings for Katrina and is upset she left him, and in a season where power corrupts decent humans like Willow, Warren uses the device he'd created on Katrina when his attempts to win her back had failed. The difference between Warren and Willow is that while Willow used the "forget" spell on Tara, she'd only intended to end their fight… while Warren here used a much uglier spell to strip Katrina of her free will entirely, parading her in a maid's uniform in front of his friends, making her call him "Master," and promising his friends they'd have their turns to have sex with her after he's done with her. If you ask me, Warren is way, way, way worse than Willow. 

- Jonathan and Andrew apparently were too innocent to realize that they were about to rape Katrina. To them, this is just a game, a fantasy, a moment to shine and become men. Katrina's words opened their eyes and made them face reality, realize that this is real, wrong and so messed up.

- Warren's transformation from a misguided genius into a human monster started the second he'd realized he killed his ex, just as Jonathan's transformation from a blind follower to a decent guy who doubts his leader began from this moment.

- WILLOW: No, that's not -- it's okay. We know you've been all tied up.
Buffy startles at this, looking guilty.
BUFFY: What?
WILLOW: With your job, and the slaying.

Anyone else thinks they're over-doing it with word-playing? We get it! Buffy's friends use words and sentences that makes Buffy gasp and remember her very dirty, dirty sex with Spike. Bored now.

- Buffy's depression over her inability to connect with her sister and friends leaves her standing on the balcony of misery.

- In BtVS, I love all the characters, absolutely hate no one –why would I waste my energy on hating TV characters?- but there's always an episode or a scene where I do hate this character. I hated Buffy in a scene in Empty Places and a few in S6, I hated Xander in Revelation, I hated Willow in some scenes during the beginning of S6… etc. Now the balcony scene is the one and only scene I hated Spike, and here's why:

Spike knows about Buffy's disconnection with her friends, he even knows that it upsets her, yet he doesn't help her with that issue. Instead, he selfishly pushes the thought of her friends abandoning her once they know she's less than human further into her damaged, depressed brain. Instead of reconnecting her with her friends, helping her become happier, he's pushing her further away from them, bringing her closer to him, trying to get her from the light to the dark, from her humanity to his demon-ness, which shows that Spike DOES need a soul to distinguish between right and wrong. Spike only reluctantly chose to side with the light for Buffy, now he's taking advantage of her miserable condition to drag her to the dark with him, seeing as he prefers the dark over the light, he's soulless anyway.  Spike obviously loves Buffy, and by loving her, he wants her to adapt to his life, be a demon like himself. He's completely forgetting WHY he loved Buffy in the first place, which I'm assuming is her humanity and strength. And what's more sickening is him ordering her to open her eyes, look at her happy friends, and feeds her bullshit about them not being her world, that her world is in the darkness with him. Buffy, drown in depression and self-loathing, doesn't respond, apparently agreeing with him.

- I've realized that Buffy's facial expression here matches hers when she was having sex with Spike in the alley in Doublemeat Palace.

- Aww, love the friendly smile exchange between Tara and Xander outside the Magic Box. I wish Tara had more scenes with the male cast. How adorable to see her joking around with Giles or Xander or Spike or the three of them together. Sigh.

- More awwws for the adorable Tillow scene!! Willow is doing better and Tara is proud of her. So cute!

- Now we're treated with one of the most romantic Spuffy scenes in S6 (they have way more romantic moments in S7) There should more icons used in LJ, more banners and avatars used in forums for this scene, it's weird I've never seen any.

- I'm feeling that Buffy is using Katrina's death and, her supposedly killing her, as an excuse to stay away from it all. She can hate herself and be punished in prison without anyone's interference. She's lost feeling to everything, even to sex with Spike, she's just tired and wants to wallow alone.

- Apparently, there's a connection between Spike and Katrina. Spike is the enemy she should kill while Katrina is the victim she should save, and by mixing them together, she ended up killing the victim instead of the enemy.

- It's so adorable to see Spike so fussed up about Buffy killing Katrina, his desire to protect her from the police. And how cute to see Buffy listening to Spike and doing as he said, she's so confused and scared, she breaks my heart.

- I'm glad that Buffy went to Dawn's room to explain herself first before turning herself to the police, and I'm gladder that Dawn saw that Buffy wanted to be away because she wasn't happy being here, and called Buffy on it. Though, I don't think her angry approach helped Buffy one bit.

- "Oh… balls." Foreshadows to Buffy's dream in S8 when she uses Spike's curse after she knocked Xander's head off of his body with a kiss. :D

- Spike letting Buffy hit and encouraging her to do so is Spike helping Buffy let out the emotions she kept inside for so long. Here he's helping her, he's being a good friend and lover, he's being the Spike I love. He doesn't understand why Buffy is so obsessed with killing one girl by accident, but he understands that Buffy is in pain and needs to let it out and he lets her. He's being selfless after his selfishness in the balcony scene. Love it.

- The insults Buffy lashes out at Spike are directed to herself as well, and what confirms it is the horror, guilt-filled expression on her face when she realizes what she had just done to Spike. Now she really deserves to go to prison, she's a disgusting being that came back wrong, killed a girl, and beat up Spike to a pulp.

- "You only hurt the one you love." Doesn't this apply in a huge way to this season? Willow hurting Tara, Giles hurting Buffy, Xander hurting Anya, Anya hurting Xander, Buffy hurting Dawn, and later Spike hurting Buffy.

- I discovered that the Scoobies do use Anya's demon knowledge so often. I was under the impression that they never pay attention to her in that regard. That's the beauty in re-watching episodes, you discover that fan fiction exaggerates in some departments sometimes.

- Dawn is still upset with Buffy, which links to the next episode where she's just too fed up with Buffy neglecting her and preferring being anywhere but with her.   

- The last scene made me cry my eyes out, Buffy's guilt and sadness realizing that nothing's wrong with her, that it was her all along, using Spike and enjoying having kinky sex with a soulless vampire, someone she should be against, all that was her, and it's scaring her. She's scared about the others' reactions to her having sex with Spike (which is weird, other than Xander, I don't see anyone getting disgusted with her over it, all the women like Spike) and Tara here proves that there's nothing wrong with loving Spike seeing as he's done a lot of good and he loves Buffy.

- I love that Buffy admits to the wrongness of using Spike, and that it's not okay to use him that way, which foreshadows to her break up with him in Aw You Were. Buffy doesn't want to be forgiven, because she doesn't deserve it, and that's Buffy wanting to take responsibility for her actions.

Feb 12 2009 10:47 pm   #29Scarlet Ibis

 
She responded, "Sometimes," which is an admission I never thought Buffy was brave enough to give at this point.
Brave?

even Spike, who used to be her confidant, takes delight in her new condition, never stops reminding her that she's different, not a human anymore, a demon, which makes Buffy less open and comfortable sharing her distress with him.
He didn't mean it in the literal sense--hasn't anyone heard the term "an animal in the sack" before?  He's covered in scratches, and they're under dirty rugs for some reason.  That's not made of "tender love making."

this is why I'm thinking that once Buffy came back, no one seemed to matter to Spike anymore… no one but Buffy.
Keep your eyes peeled--well, your ears, rather--during SR--it'll clear some of that up.

now that Buffy is too busy having sex with Spike and Tara isn't around
Keep in mind that Buffy has shift hours now too--and not just at the DP.  She still patrols.

where power corrupts decent humans like Willow,
Don't forget Buffy.

If you ask me, Warren is way, way, way worse than Willow.
I suppose it depends on if one expected better behavior than Willow.  But yes, if you compare the two on the same scale, then Warren is clearly worse--hands down.

he's pushing her further away from them, bringing her closer to him, trying to get her from the light to the dark, from her humanity to his demon-ness
Um, pushed her how?  She was already  there.  And if all it takes to make one explore their..."demoness" or whatever is kinky sex or public sex, then man, average Joe Xander converted years ago to "walking on the dark side."  Spike said all that stuff to get.  Her.  Off.  Because he knows that thinking it's more naughty than it really is, like Buffy does, gets her hot.  Sad, but true.

Foreshadows to Buffy's dream in S8 when she uses Spike's curse after she knocked Xander's head off of his body with a kiss.
I don't think it's so much of a foreshadowing as showing that Buffy likes to use Spike's lingo, like with the whole "Here endeth the lesson" thing in s7.

Here he's helping her, he's being a good friend and lover, he's being the Spike I love.
I saw it as more of him being a mindless doormat and punching bag.  It makes me sad and angry at him at the same time.

later Spike hurting Buffy.
No "Buffy hurting Spike" in that list?  Why not?

which is weird, other than Xander, I don't see anyone getting disgusted with her over it, all the women like Spike
Xander wouldn't have objected either.  Back in "Intervention" when he had reasons to object, disgust was not on the list.  We got adjectives like "dark and mysterious" and "compact, but well muscled."  They were understanding of it--Willow, Anya and Xander, the same folks she's worried about now, for some strange reason.  Funny how Buffy forgot about that.

I love that Buffy admits to the wrongness of using Spike, and that it's not okay to use him that way, which foreshadows to her break up with him in Aw You Were. Buffy doesn't want to be forgiven, because she doesn't deserve it, and that's Buffy wanting to take responsibility for her actions.
You know, if she were having a true revelation about how wrong it all was, she would have broken things off with Spike then, and not when Riley swooped into town with the wifey.  That wasn't about her realizing what she was doing was wrong (I'm not sure that moment rolls around completely for Buffy that season)--that was about her and self flagellation.  She wanted Tara to shame her, and was upset when she didn't get it.


"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 13 2009 12:01 am   #30Guest

 
Guest

At the end, I don't think Buffy was realizing that using Spike was wrong, I think she was crying and upset because she was a person capable of using someone else and beating them horribly. It's all about her. She'd been clinging to the fact that she came back wrong as an excuse for her behavior, as the perfect Buffy she wanted to be would never do such things or want such things. I really hated the balcony scene, too, but i think it was the writer's excuse for Buffy beating Spike later, making him less of the victim he really is. It also reinforces that Buffy wants to give in to him and her feelings and how she's using that xcuse for why she feels that way and distant from her friends rather than understanding that people change and aren't perfect and that she is depressed and that affects her feelings.

In an interview, Adam Busch talks about playing Warren, and how he sees him as a tragic figure, who keeps reaching choices, and always makes the wrong one. in the murder of Katrina, I think it's the fianl choice that he feels he can't turn back from and he's really evolved into Evil.
 

Feb 13 2009 03:24 am   #31nmcil

 
I think there is a very different interpretation to the Buffy-Spike Balcony Scene - It requires that the entire episode be considered and all the dreamscape Jungian Inner demons metaphors and symbolism. 

One thing that is seldom spoken of when viewers discuss that scene is the previous scene - Buffy shifts from all the fake smiles she puts on for her friends - And it is very important to understand that it is Buffy, with drink in her hand ( and kudos to the writers for using drinking, a suppressive same as the cerebral dampener subtlety in this scene) does not choose to join her friends but goes to get more drink.  We then see Buffy turn away from the bar/drinking and voluntarily makes her way (to her real choice of addiction and mental chaos - her sublimation onto Spike and her own created inner demons.  Buffy ascends into another metaphorical realm - her dreamscape inner demons realm.  Go over what is actually spoken in her conversation with Spike - it has nothing to do with Spike, everything that comes into the balcony scene is directly connected to Buffy and her own fears - It is not Spike that is speaking all that "come into and join me in the dark," it is Buffy's own mind that we are hearing, not Spike.  Why do you think do you think that Spike demands that she make him stop?  It is Buffy that cannot do the stopping and that has so much fear and sees herself as weak and unable to take control of her life.  The next time we seem them together, just after she turns away from their crypt barrier she is chanting and desperate for anyone to save her from thinking of him and wanting him.  The writers even have her looking up to the sky and giving thanks.  Kudos again to the writers for their conversion of her pleas for help - that very distraction away from Spike (her equal and source of love and feeling) that leads her directly into the hands of the real and oh so very souled monster in this episode,  of inner demons, sublimations, self delusions, hatreds, brutality, primal needs,  emotional trauma and  love. 

The Balcony scene is all about Buffy and what she is doing to herself - as Spike asked in their alley scene "why are you doing this" (paraphrase)   Spike doesn't want to draw Buffy into his dark - he wants to have her in his life, he wants to bring her light into his life - he wants to help her, and love and be there for her - that is Life in the Light, not the life in darkness.  Buffy is the party that sees them and places them in the untenable "darkness and unsouled evil blood sucking vampire."  Spike can't even blood suck anyone in this period and she knows that - All the horrible things that happen between them in this episode can, IMO, be directly placed at the struggle and emotional crisis that she is living through. 

I LOVE Spike in this episode, from my perspective, that alley scene and all the love and understanding that he shows for her is one of his shinning moments.  That is why I feel that both characters and all the emotional power from this episode suffers very much from the huge disconnect in the next episode.  I think it was "bad television" in that instance - As a viewer, I felt that there was this huge missed connection between the story arc and the reality of the characters.  In this case, I don't think it was of any benefit to have the story arc to require the viewers to  fill in their own "what happens."   Dead Things was such a pivotal and powerful episode and part of their relationship to have been transitioned with that treatment in  "Older and Faraway."
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 13 2009 02:17 pm   #32sosa lola

 
Brave?

Admitting that she has any shred of feeling for Spike scares Buffy beyond belief, so saying that she likes Spike sometimes is a very big step, and a brave one, for someone who fears showing their real feelings.

He didn't mean it in the literal sense--hasn't anyone heard the term "an animal in the sack" before? He's covered in scratches, and they're under dirty rugs for some reason. That's not made of "tender love making."

I was more talking about how much Spike stresses the fact that Buffy came back less than human, and how he takes delight in the fact, knowing that it's upsetting Buffy.

Um, pushed her how? She was already there.

That's why I added "further", Buffy already lost the connect with her friends and it's killing her, Spike is making the matter even worse instead of helping her out. He was being selfish in that scene.

I saw it as more of him being a mindless doormat and punching bag. It makes me sad and angry at him at the same time.

It's the opposite for me, it made me love him even more. He knows Buffy needed to let it out and instead of fighting her or shoving her off, he's giving her what she needed. I also love the frightened stare Buffy had when she'd realized what she had just done, I also love that Spike didn't call her on it, because at that moment he realized that he was dealing with a deeply depressed Buffy, he calls her on her selfish usage of him for sex, but never on this, because he knows how damaged and scared she was.

No "Buffy hurting Spike" in that list? Why not?

Because Buffy isn't in love with Spike at this point. She has feelings for him, but she doesn't love him, and the quote says "love". And I don't think it applies to how Buffy treats Spike, she treats him badly because she thinks she's justified to, which is more sickening IMO.

Xander wouldn't have objected either. Back in "Intervention" when he had reasons to object, disgust was not on the list. We got adjectives like "dark and mysterious" and "compact, but well muscled." They were understanding of it--Willow, Anya and Xander, the same folks she's worried about now, for some strange reason. Funny how Buffy forgot about that.

You've got a point. I don't think Buffy is scared about her friends' reactions, she doesn't tell them because she's ashamed of herself and Spike, it's about her, not her friends.

Feb 13 2009 04:26 pm   #33Guest

 
Guest
I really like that character of Tara, and I think she was very strong in ending her relationship with Willow rather than stay and be hurt just because the one out of control was the one she loved. I think Spike was enabling Buffy in accepting her beating and using him. I don't know if we're supposed to think of it as vampiric that he can't understand that it's a bad relatinoship for both of them, and make it clear that he does need a soul, or if we're supposed to think Spike is trying to draw Buffy into the dark by letting her act more by demon rules. i hate that I have to wonder what the writers are thinking or disagreeing on and how they are forcing characters to act certain ways for the story line. We should be able to just think about the characters IMO, and that's part of why i disliked Season 6 so much.
Feb 15 2009 07:40 pm   #34Messiah

 
Wait a second, I thought she was hiding her wrist because he bit her there?? I like it!

Are you sure he never bit her and she never bit him?
In one episode after having had sex, Spike says something like "I'm in your system now....... You're going to crave me..."
So that's when I thought he had let her bite him or do a temporary claim thing.

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Feb 15 2009 08:07 pm   #35Messiah

 

I don't know if we're supposed to think of it as vampiric that he can't understand that it's a bad relatinoship for both of them, and make it clear that he does need a soul, or if we're supposed to think Spike is trying to draw Buffy into the dark by letting her act more by demon rules

Probably both. But if you ponder it long enough, it comes down to the fact that Spike's capacities for understanding and sympathizingwith Buffy on the same level are limited.

It's when he gets his soul then he is able to gain a clearer perspective on his relationship and mentally evolve.
It's like the scene after he tries to violate Buffy. He's in his crypt, replaying the images of what happened and he crushes the bottle in his hand.
He's sorry to a certain extent, but the angst he feels in that scene is mostly due to his incapability to understand the situation. To understand Buffy.

He was really trying to convince her and himself that she was less than human, trying to make their relationship valid. By convincing her, he thought she would become dark, like him, and she would let him do whatever he wanted to do to her and she would like it.

 

Then he realizes that it didn’t work. He tried to hurt her and was completely sure that she would be all for it.

Thus Spikes confusion.

 

He didn’t know what to do, how to act, how to feel truly sorry. He knew that was what she would have wanted and he couldn’t find anything in himself that she wanted besides sex.

He loved her but it was a different kind of love. He knew she wanted something else but he couldn’t figure what. He didn’t have the workings in him to be the kind of man she wanted him to be, to be the kind of man that she could trust. (which he states in season 7 when he’s burning himself on the cross)

He was also raised by the evilest vampires in Europe AND dated one of them for over a century.

So, his concept on relationships and trust wasn’t at all stable.

 

Basically, what we see of Spike is a man(pire) who has been totally warped and twisted again and again. He is so fixed in his vampirisms and demonic nature that he can’t be the kind of man that a woman like Buffy reallllly needs.

 

And basically, we see that he is capable of realizing these things and has the potential, he just doesn’t know what to do about it.

 

Getting his soul back was like if he allowed himself to emotionally and spiritually evolve and be better able to understand things from Buffy’s point of view.

 

All of this makes Spike a truly unique character.



- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Feb 16 2009 04:44 am   #36nmcil

 
He was also raised by the evilest vampires in Europe AND dated one of them for over a century. So, his concept on relationships and trust wasn’t at all stable. Basically, what we see of Spike is a man(pire) who has been totally warped and twisted again and again. He is so fixed in his vampirisms and demonic nature that he can’t be the kind of man that a woman like Buffy reallllly needs.

Don't think that I can agree with you on this one, not that it matters, we all have our individual perspectives.  I would suggest that you watch their balcony scene again and try it from the perspective of this being Buffy's inner demon struggle dialogue - that the language reflects her perspective and not strictly the Spike voice. 

Plus, really can't see Spike as being the wrong party in this episode, while Buffy does have to take responsibility for her imagined man slaughter of Katrina, I think Buffy was very willing to use the incident as a way to escape all her burdens.  Equally, with the attempted rape - not in anyway trying to suggest that what Spike did was not totally wrong but their relationship was so brutal and abusive, emotionally, that everything just reach the breaking point and the point where people get down to their worst nature.  As for as the soul being a big distinctive line of demarcation - again, who else in this episode is capable of rape -The fully souled Warren, Andrew and Jonathan.

"Getting his soul back was like if he allowed himself to emotionally and spiritually evolve and be better able to understand things from Buffy’s point of view."

I don't  believe that the getting of his soul is the vital factor in his transformation - Spike knows exactly how wrong he was in trying to force himself on Buffy and to forcibly take them back to a place where they did connect - their sexual connection and the place where Buffy does show her feelings.  I don't think we can separate their relationship into who is right or wrong - Buffy is equally to blame, and if we want to bring in the whole issue of Soul, she is even more culpable, because she does have one.  But, I don't really accept this "need of soul" to be vital "missing spark" - I think it works as part of the mythos of the of the Buffyverse and the Angel/Angelus history, but not particularly useful from the philosophical perspective.  

Season Seven brings in the much needed Buffy POV regarding where she was emotionally and mentally during Season Six - I think that is just as important in trying to understand where both these character evolve from -

Thanks for posting - hope that you will join us more often -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 16 2009 06:29 pm   #37Messiah

 
who else in this episode is capable of rape -The fully souled Warren, Andrew and Jonathan.

With them, In my opinion, they were created by the writers to get Buffy to understand that humans can also not have souls (Like in the episode of Angel with the evil little boy - the demon who possessed him said there was no soul to corrupt).

Just, what I'm trying to say is....uguh... (brain freezing).. Both Buffy and Spike are really screwed up in this season.
However, there are things that Buffy would never do.
Whereas Spike would do whatever the hell he wanted, given the opportunity, which means that he is just basically trying to be what she wants but he isn't truly feeling it.

Buffy just wants to feel like her old self, be happy, have a loving boyfriend and a whole family.
But she thinks she can't and won't have these things, so she turns to Spike to pretend.

I don't think we can separate their relationship into who is right or wrong - Buffy is equally to blame, and if we want to bring in the whole issue of Soul, she is even more culpable, because she does have one.

*Hands up* I totally agree with you there. I'm not saying Buffy's any better because honestly, she annoys me seriously in some episodes lol

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Feb 16 2009 10:34 pm   #38nmcil

 
Just, what I'm trying to say is....uguh... (brain freezing).. Both Buffy and Spike are really screwed up in this season. However, there are things that Buffy would never do. Whereas Spike would do whatever the hell he wanted, given the opportunity, which means that he is just basically trying to be what she wants but he isn't truly feeling it.

Do you mean that he engages in all the Season Six sexual encounters because he is only trying to please Buffy?   Why would he not b "truly feeling it?" - Considering all the extremes that he lives through with her and Dawn and her friends he must have a huge Motivation Factor - and it seems to me that the greatest and most powerful motivations are always based on love, passions, intellectual and spiritual convictions.  To have devoted himself and accepted all the  horrors of their relationship, I can't see that Spike was not totally engaged with the deepest and most powerful forces of love and devotion to her and Dawn.

How about some examples of why you think Spike is not true in his expressions of love or what are some of the things that Buffy "would never do" -  Spike's complete acceptance of  "his responsibility for actions and reality" is expressed powerfully "Never Leave Me" - and while this is post Africa/Soul, I believe that Spike is fully capable of this level of understanding, both intellectual and emotional.


BUFFY: It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.

SPIKE: I already did it. It's already done. (challenging) You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.

Please don't think that I am trying to be at all argumentative, I just love reading what other Buffyverse fans ideas -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 17 2009 04:51 pm   #39Guest

 
Guest
Do you mean that he engages in all the Season Six sexual encounters because he is only trying to please Buffy? Why would he not b "truly feeling it?" - Considering all the extremes that he lives through with her and Dawn and her friends he must have a huge Motivation Factor - and it seems to me that the greatest and most powerful motivations are always based on love, passions, intellectual and spiritual convictions. To have devoted himself and accepted all the horrors of their relationship, I can't see that Spike was not totally engaged with the deepest and most powerful forces of love and devotion to her and Dawn.

Yes and no -

What I mean is, yes he does love her and that is his biggest motivation but what I mean by ‘not feeling it’ is that, he is not a good person. He tries but it’s not natural for him. He forces himself to try and be good for her sake.

 

It’s like telling your lover a pretty and twisted lie in order to manipulate and change their reaction to things in such a way so they can better deal with it.

Sure, he’s in love with Buffy and all that jazz, but he also wishes she would accept him for the monster he really is.

 

Like in the episode where he realizes he can hurt Buffy, so he thinks his chip is broken. The FIRST thing he does is go out and try to kill a girl.

 

But then he goes back to pretending to be good, because he knows that’s the only way he can survive around Buffy and the others. The biggest motivational factor is, as you said, love. That is what helps him control is inner desires. But that doesn’t mean that his desires are not still inside him.
How about some examples of why you think Spike is not true in his expressions of love or what are some of the things that Buffy "would never do" - Spike's complete acceptance of "his responsibility for actions and reality" is expressed powerfully "Never Leave Me" - and while this is post Africa/Soul, I believe that Spike is fully capable of this level of understanding, both intellectual and emotional.

Well, Buffy would never attempt rape, she would never kill for fun etc…

She’s not pathologically inhibited like Spike seems to be at some points.

He is capable of understanding only on some levels, that’s what I’ve been trying to say.

 

 

>> SPIKE: I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.

BUFFY: Yes.

SPIKE: You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.

BUFFY: You figured that out just now?

SPIKE: Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

BUFFY: Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?

SPIKE: Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.

Please don't think that I am trying to be at all argumentative, I just love reading what other Buffyverse fans ideas -

For a second there it seemed almost like it but now I know you're not. It's all cool though :D Sometimes we all need a good challenge of wits.


Feb 17 2009 04:54 pm   #40Guest

 
Guest
Sorry, I got logged out lol this is Messiah :)
Feb 17 2009 05:10 pm   #41Scarlet Ibis

 
Well, Buffy would never attempt rape, she would never kill for fun etc…
Oh, Buffy's no saint.  "Gone" is played up for laughs, but it's not all that funny, and Buffy would kill for vengeance.  She has to be the one in control, and has anger issues that are never resolved because all of her outbursts of violence are pretty much whitewashed.  Buffy believes she has moral superiority, but she really doesn't. 
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 17 2009 06:31 pm   #42Guest

 
Guest
Oh, Buffy's no saint. "Gone" is played up for laughs, but it's not all that funny, and Buffy would kill for vengeance. She has to be the one in control, and has anger issues that are never resolved because all of her outbursts of violence are pretty much whitewashed. Buffy believes she has moral superiority, but she really doesn't.

True, very true. Buffy and Spike are both very screwed up, but in different ways.

For instance, if you tried telling Buffy what you just told me about her, she would beat you up or go in denial. Whichever works to make a person shut up. She doesn't want to change, and she's a coward when it comes to emotions. All she's really good for in the show is fighting demons.
Basically she's a borderline narcissist.
Feb 18 2009 02:12 am   #43nmcil

 
Like in the episode where he realizes he can hurt Buffy, so he thinks his chip is broken. The FIRST thing he does is go out and try to kill a girl.

I think you have hit on just the right instance that from my perspective speaks to the connection between these two characters and, again from my personal take on them, shows how they both share darkness of character and.  Consider Spike's  moral understanding and motivations in this scene - and then consider Buffy's actions in her attempted killing of Faith as sacrifice to cure her lover, Angel/Angelus.  Pare away all the niceties that we might like to ascribe to the actions and motivations to both characters that might make their actions socially acceptable - what are we left with?  A very young woman who attempts murder of another human being and a very confused vampire that attempts murder of a human being.  They are the same, both attempting to kill and sacrifice another human life for their own purpose.  Conversely we take the same two characters acting not from self-centered purpose, but from love for another human being, Buffy accepts her own sacrifice to save the life of Dawn - Spike allows himself to be tortured and almost killed out of love for Buffy and Dawn; again they are the same.  

Buffy and Spike are both sentient beings, they both have the intellectual capacity and both have shared cultural influences that firmly establish the rule that killing another human is morally unacceptable.  Spike may choose to kill humans, but he does so with an intellectual knowledge of the choice he makes.  I think that if we attempt to disconnect this aspect of a intellectual understanding to Spike we are then placed in the position of "through the eyes of a shark."  Do we see or blame  a shark or a tiger when they kill to feed?  We do not, we see them as life forms with the capacity for intellectual choice nor are they subject to the cultural laws human societies have adopted.  From my perspective, Spike can be either an entity with full intellectual choice and capacity to experience his life with all its facets.  Either Spike has the ability to understand moral choice and the capacity to emotionally respond to life or we have to put him in the great and deep ocean and give him the same moral status of the shark, a life form separate from our moral code.

I can't see the horrors of that alley scene in "Dead Things" with feeling a great sorrow and  heart ache  - both for the utterly broken young woman that Buffy has become or  from seeing how the capacity to feel love and devotion to  another human being can take Spike to such depth of feelings and commitment to this woman.  

Thanks much for your reply - it is after all the questions and discussion that is important - not that one party is right or wrong.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 18 2009 04:11 am   #44Spikez_tart

 
there's a connection between Spike and Katrina - Interesting that Buffy gets that what she's doing to Spike is equivalent to what Warren did to Katrina (before she even knew what Warrent did.  Also, I think the Warren/Katrina thread is a foil for Sp/Buffy in Seeing Red.  Warren screws up with his girlfriend, tries to get together with her, but she rebuffs him.  He gets angry and tries to get even through non-consenual sex.

the others' reactions to her having sex with Spike (which is weird, other than Xander, I don't see anyone getting disgusted with her over it -   Buffy has good reason to think that the Superfriends aren't going to approve.  Buffy would be looking at the way Xander, Willow and Giles acted when Angel came back from hell.  

In Intervention, they all said tough things when they saw the Buffybot having sex with Spike (although not to Buffy, because she hadn't come in yet - maybe later in a how upset we were kind of way?).  Xander says he'll knock himself unconscious.  Tara says she's nuts.  Anya suggests they slap her.  (This sort of surprises me - why would Anya care and wouldn't you expect her to be more supportive of Spike who she likes?)  Only Willow is willing to cut Buffy some slack and wants to attribute it to grief and not that Buffy might actually want to sleep with Spike, although later when she finds out that Buffy really is sleeping with Spike, she makes a face.  Xander's reaction might have been less if Spike hadn't boinked Xander's ex fiancee, but he comes down pretty hard on Buffy with the "killing half of Europe" speech.

Balcony scene as dream sequence  This makes sense.  The music switches into a deep mystical sort of turn, Buffy almost sleepwalks up the stairs, Spike appears magically out of thin air (which he tends to do anyway).  Buffy can barely speak.   That would make all the things Spike says what Buffy thinks and not what he thinks or says.  She's the one worried what her friends would think, Spike could care less.

In one episode after having had sex, Spike says something like "I'm in your system now....... You're going to crave me..."So that's when I thought he had let her bite him or do a temporary claim thing.  (From Wrecked)  After that he threatens to bite her if she doesn't stop being such a bitch, so I guess he didn't bite her yet, but I'm sure he did.  After all, she had a sexual experience when Angel bit her, I'm thinking she'd go back for seconds.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 18 2009 05:04 am   #45Scarlet Ibis

 
Buffy has good reason to think that the Superfriends aren't going to approve. Buffy would be looking at the way Xander, Willow and Giles acted when Angel came back from hell.
Oh, it's not nearly the same.  The last they saw of Angel had been Angelus once he came back from Hell, and it'd been a huge secret.  Spike bonded with her friends at the end of s5.  I'm saying that their reaction in "Intervention" wasn't extreme, and since they were friendly at the point in which this ep takes place, they wouldn't have made a big deal about it.  More than likely no deal. 

Also, this ep takes place long before "Entropy," let alone s7, so those examples you gave wouldn't count here in this instance.  Buffy had no legtimate reason to fear their reaction, particularly so since she vehemently defended Spike in "Spiral" to Giles and Xander.  So why not be prepared to defend him now?  But, there was no cause to defend him at this point in time to her friends anyway--she just made all that stuff up in her head.  What does Tara say?  He loves you, as in why the crap are you freaking out?

From Wrecked) After that he threatens to bite her if she doesn't stop being such a bitch, so I guess he didn't bite her yet, but I'm sure he did.
I think he did as well, or at the very least, he tasted her blood.  That's how he recognized her in "Sleeper"--not her scent, or her voice.  Her blood.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 18 2009 06:13 am   #46nmcil

 
In the context of this episode and how Buffy cannot control her desires - how out of control she sees herself - my take is that Spike's biting comment refers more to  Buffy's state of mind - being so out of control, just like the sex slave The Nerds create with Katrina.  All this talk of biting, IMO, can have different meanings, to me it is about how both Buffy and Spike are dealing with themselves on the most powerful and fundamental levels.  Blood is life that runs through their lives at the most powerful and intense levels that people experience - deep love, deep passions, deep fears - all of that is facing Buffy and Spike - and through the mind of Buffy, it is her system that is being corrupted and out of control.  All the visuals and symbols point to Buffy's hidden desires and fears and that is why I think that she was more than willing to have herself put away, she can still see herself as the Hero/Slayer doing the work of The Chosen One, not have to recognize, or deal with her horrors of her subconscious and sublimated hatreds and anger that she places onto Spike.  It does seem to be as well that Buffy would like to experience Spike's bite, based on the intensity of their relationship and how they describe her sexual conduct.  Like you blood connection in "Sleeper" Scarlet Ibis.
 
SPIKE: Not yet. But I'm in your system now. You're gonna crave me, like I crave blood. And the next time you come crawling, if you don't stop being such a bitch, maybe I will bite you.

BUFFY: That, that's it! I want you out of my life! Out of my work, out of my home-
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 18 2009 11:13 am   #47sosa lola

 

Buffy has good reason to think that the Superfriends aren't going to approve. Buffy would be looking at the way Xander, Willow and Giles acted when Angel came back from hell.

Can you blame them after what Angelus had done? This was the first time they faced Angel after S2 when he was a murdering psychopath, and their anger was more about Buffy hiding Angel's return from them than her deciding to be with him. Besides, it was mostly initial, they were okay with Angel right after that episode, even Xander.

 

In Intervention, they all said tough things when they saw the Buffybot having sex with Spike (although not to Buffy, because she hadn't come in yet - maybe later in a how upset we were kind of way?).

Actually when they'd told Buffy about it, she was the only one disgusted and upset with the idea of sleeping with Spike. The others, especially Xander, were more than supportive.

although later when she finds out that Buffy really is sleeping with Spike, she makes a face.

She doesn't make a face. She just laughed at how ridiculous it sounded, just because Buffy made it clear she'd never do it. But when she knew that it was true, she was upset that Buffy didn't tell her, not that Buffy likes Spike. I don't think Willow would ever mind if Buffy liked Spike and wanted to be with him, I think she'd be the most supportive one.

 

 
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