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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
As You Were
Mar 02 2009 02:17 am #1Spikez_tart
I know we've talked about this episode at length before, but after seeing it again, I noticed some new things and besides it's such a mess as an episode that we need to rip it apart some more and say snotty things about Marni Noxon.
First, the clothes. In the scene where Spike is lurking outside the house waiting for Buffy, he is wearing (for him) a very weird, yellowish tan plaid or checked shirt which somewhat matches Buffy's Hellmouth Yellow jacket. (Isn't there a law against manufacturing clothes in that color that don't involve crossing guards?) Okay, so Buffy and Spike sort of match, nothing new, but later Xander and Anya are sitting in their bathroom to get away from their respective families and they are talking about their wedding and their marriage and they are wearing -- yellowish tan plaid shirts.
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/vidcaps/115/asyouwere108.shtml
Which brings me to my first outlandish conclusion - that Spike is considering asking Buffy to marry him, or is at least prepared to do so.
Because -
1. Their engagement in Something Blue was never actually terminated. Yeah, everybody assumed and la la la , but neither Buffy or Spike ever said. Hey, I'd rather be dead in a ditch than marry you. In fact, Buffy mentions that she loved him. (I know, I'm stretching.)
2. In Crush, the marriage subject comes up, in a typical hellmouth way
BUFFY: You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
3. When Spike chains Buffy up, that's a sort of symbolic marriage. Note that it's Buffy who gets the real chains, Drusilla gets rope (she's a shack up) and Harmony runs around free - she's been tossed out.
4. Spike gives Xander a hard time about ducking out of the wedding:
XANDER: Yeah, maybe you should do that, Spike, just run along.
SPIKE: You know, I guess you know all about that, don't you? The king of the big exit.
Then
SPIKE: More than happy to beat you right through the pain, you pathetic poof.
Spike is plainly upset that Xander, who had happiness and marriage in his reach, tossed it away, while Spike never got a chance. And, not the words you'd expect of your Big Bad love em and leave em type, either.
Which is important because Riley who was supposed to love Buffy so much, never pops the question, but whoa - runs off to the jungle and finds the perfect woman and marries her within one year, when he's supposed to be mourning his fabulous love for Buffy. And, that has got to hurt our Buffster.
Try not to beat me too much.
Second - The Initiatve has never left Sunnydale (how could they? it's the Hellmouth). They're always conveniently around to give Riley surgery or take out a vampire's chip or whatever. So they may be keeping track of Riley's old girlfriend for him, because she's a loose canon. So naturally, they would know about Spike, too. But, I think Xander tips off Riley that something is going on with Spike - at least that he's hanging around too much, showing up for birthday parties, playing cards with Buffy, showing up in bright daylight for chit chats and a little kitchen spatula action, and even the Gone episode, which may not have drifted up to the conscious level for Xander, but maybe it's giving his brain and itch. Xander is supposed to be the all seeing eye, so maybe he does notice something. Maybe he just tells Riley that Spike is still hanging around being a pain in the butt and Riley follows up. But what makes me suspect Xander is when Riley, Buffy and Sam arrive at the Summer house:
XANDER: Hey, there's the man! Life taker, heartbreaker. (shakes Riley's hand) You know, figuratively speaking.
Heartbreak then and now and not at all figuratively. Xander is plainly expecting him, but doesn't say how. Willow says they got his call (when?), but that doesn't preclude Xander from calling Riley before. And, they just all happened to be at Buffy's house. How convenient.
Riley - okay he shows up looking good and all James Bondy sexy and he has that scar on his face. He's still tall and he has good wheels (car=sex in Bverse), but he is not the Riley we first met by a long, dark stretch. Every scene he appears in is at night and and in the dark. He sets up the whole business to get Spike in trouble with Buffy and I don't believe for a minute that he didn't know about Spike and Buffy ahead of time. I think he's giving Spike payback for tipping Buffy off that he was fooling around with vampire girls.
He's gone a long time supposedly looking for "Doc." Someone on one of the previous posts suggested he took time out to kill the real Doc, which sounds good to me, but maybe he swung by the dark side of town to visit one of his old girlfriends as well. He and the smug bitch wife blow into town, destroy the only good thing Buffy's got going for her, and even make her look bad at her pathetic little job. Then, Riley has the gall to offer to kill Spike! (Buffy barely defends Spike, says nothing about how he's changed and whatever, although she does manage to admit that she's sleeping with him.) Then Riley and wife go out in a blaze of high tech light on their helicopter rope and you just want to stab the two of them.
Special moment, when Spike throws off the blankets and flashes Riley. Heh heh. :)
First, the clothes. In the scene where Spike is lurking outside the house waiting for Buffy, he is wearing (for him) a very weird, yellowish tan plaid or checked shirt which somewhat matches Buffy's Hellmouth Yellow jacket. (Isn't there a law against manufacturing clothes in that color that don't involve crossing guards?) Okay, so Buffy and Spike sort of match, nothing new, but later Xander and Anya are sitting in their bathroom to get away from their respective families and they are talking about their wedding and their marriage and they are wearing -- yellowish tan plaid shirts.
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/vidcaps/115/asyouwere108.shtml
Which brings me to my first outlandish conclusion - that Spike is considering asking Buffy to marry him, or is at least prepared to do so.
Because -
1. Their engagement in Something Blue was never actually terminated. Yeah, everybody assumed and la la la , but neither Buffy or Spike ever said. Hey, I'd rather be dead in a ditch than marry you. In fact, Buffy mentions that she loved him. (I know, I'm stretching.)
2. In Crush, the marriage subject comes up, in a typical hellmouth way
BUFFY: You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
3. When Spike chains Buffy up, that's a sort of symbolic marriage. Note that it's Buffy who gets the real chains, Drusilla gets rope (she's a shack up) and Harmony runs around free - she's been tossed out.
4. Spike gives Xander a hard time about ducking out of the wedding:
XANDER: Yeah, maybe you should do that, Spike, just run along.
SPIKE: You know, I guess you know all about that, don't you? The king of the big exit.
Then
SPIKE: More than happy to beat you right through the pain, you pathetic poof.
Spike is plainly upset that Xander, who had happiness and marriage in his reach, tossed it away, while Spike never got a chance. And, not the words you'd expect of your Big Bad love em and leave em type, either.
Which is important because Riley who was supposed to love Buffy so much, never pops the question, but whoa - runs off to the jungle and finds the perfect woman and marries her within one year, when he's supposed to be mourning his fabulous love for Buffy. And, that has got to hurt our Buffster.
Try not to beat me too much.
Second - The Initiatve has never left Sunnydale (how could they? it's the Hellmouth). They're always conveniently around to give Riley surgery or take out a vampire's chip or whatever. So they may be keeping track of Riley's old girlfriend for him, because she's a loose canon. So naturally, they would know about Spike, too. But, I think Xander tips off Riley that something is going on with Spike - at least that he's hanging around too much, showing up for birthday parties, playing cards with Buffy, showing up in bright daylight for chit chats and a little kitchen spatula action, and even the Gone episode, which may not have drifted up to the conscious level for Xander, but maybe it's giving his brain and itch. Xander is supposed to be the all seeing eye, so maybe he does notice something. Maybe he just tells Riley that Spike is still hanging around being a pain in the butt and Riley follows up. But what makes me suspect Xander is when Riley, Buffy and Sam arrive at the Summer house:
XANDER: Hey, there's the man! Life taker, heartbreaker. (shakes Riley's hand) You know, figuratively speaking.
Heartbreak then and now and not at all figuratively. Xander is plainly expecting him, but doesn't say how. Willow says they got his call (when?), but that doesn't preclude Xander from calling Riley before. And, they just all happened to be at Buffy's house. How convenient.
Riley - okay he shows up looking good and all James Bondy sexy and he has that scar on his face. He's still tall and he has good wheels (car=sex in Bverse), but he is not the Riley we first met by a long, dark stretch. Every scene he appears in is at night and and in the dark. He sets up the whole business to get Spike in trouble with Buffy and I don't believe for a minute that he didn't know about Spike and Buffy ahead of time. I think he's giving Spike payback for tipping Buffy off that he was fooling around with vampire girls.
He's gone a long time supposedly looking for "Doc." Someone on one of the previous posts suggested he took time out to kill the real Doc, which sounds good to me, but maybe he swung by the dark side of town to visit one of his old girlfriends as well. He and the smug bitch wife blow into town, destroy the only good thing Buffy's got going for her, and even make her look bad at her pathetic little job. Then, Riley has the gall to offer to kill Spike! (Buffy barely defends Spike, says nothing about how he's changed and whatever, although she does manage to admit that she's sleeping with him.) Then Riley and wife go out in a blaze of high tech light on their helicopter rope and you just want to stab the two of them.
Special moment, when Spike throws off the blankets and flashes Riley. Heh heh. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 02 2009 03:09 am #2Scarlet Ibis
I vehemently detest this episode. Nothing new there :P
Interesting connection between the hideous, vomit yellow coloring between the two couples. What's more interesting is that it's Buffy and Xander who bail on their respective partners.
I read this in an essay on Tea At The Ford--I have no idea who said it, but the point is this: There isn't a chance in hell that Spike could be an international arms dealer with no phone number one, especially not being too friendly with the other demons in town, and two? There really isn't a chance in hell he'd use the alias "Doc," who was responsible for his "failure" in "The Gift."
Also, my own observation? That demon they were chasing? Only harmed a mailbox. Sure, it ran around, making a ruckus, but for something that's supposed to massacre human beings? It only attacked when it was being attacked at--by Buffy and Riley. Riley was full of shit, and knew about Buffy and Spike before he walked into that crypt. There's no way he could be that stoney faced about it without a pre-warning of some kind.
Also? The break up at the end? Total lame ass cop out, made no sense what so ever. Plenty of other times she could have had an epiphany of some kind (e.g. Dead Things), and I didn't, nor will I ever buy her being "the good one" in that instance, or Riley, lying, spineless bastard that he is, being the catalyst for a revelation of any kind. I'm still not sure on why anyone bothered to listen to him anyway. Besides the Mrs. I mean.
Interesting connection between the hideous, vomit yellow coloring between the two couples. What's more interesting is that it's Buffy and Xander who bail on their respective partners.
I read this in an essay on Tea At The Ford--I have no idea who said it, but the point is this: There isn't a chance in hell that Spike could be an international arms dealer with no phone number one, especially not being too friendly with the other demons in town, and two? There really isn't a chance in hell he'd use the alias "Doc," who was responsible for his "failure" in "The Gift."
Also, my own observation? That demon they were chasing? Only harmed a mailbox. Sure, it ran around, making a ruckus, but for something that's supposed to massacre human beings? It only attacked when it was being attacked at--by Buffy and Riley. Riley was full of shit, and knew about Buffy and Spike before he walked into that crypt. There's no way he could be that stoney faced about it without a pre-warning of some kind.
Also? The break up at the end? Total lame ass cop out, made no sense what so ever. Plenty of other times she could have had an epiphany of some kind (e.g. Dead Things), and I didn't, nor will I ever buy her being "the good one" in that instance, or Riley, lying, spineless bastard that he is, being the catalyst for a revelation of any kind. I'm still not sure on why anyone bothered to listen to him anyway. Besides the Mrs. I mean.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2009 11:39 am #3Spikez_tart
There isn't a chance in hell re no phone and "Doc" - no kidding, which is why I keep banging my head against the wall and thinking it has to "mean" something and it probably doesn't.
That demon they were chasing? Only harmed a mailbox. - I note that Riley identified it for the general public as a "wild bear." I think bears are a sort of sexual symbol in the Bverse - Daddy Bear, blondy bear, you created a bear, so maybe that makes sense. Or, maybe they didn't have any money in the show budget that week for body parts. :)
Riley, lying, spineless bastard as he is - I note that Riley was not the only one in the beginning that wasn't forthcoming on new relationships. It takes Buffy the entire episode to say that she's sleeping with Spike in actual words. She gets busted too. Everyone focuses on how Riley doesn't mention the new wife, but Buffy is just as guilty there. Of course, she's pathetic so I guess we can let her slide a litte. I think I hate him the most when he and the wifey go flying off in a beam of light and the music wells up like he's a good guy or something, when in fact he's become a big fat jerk and a heartbreaker.
That demon they were chasing? Only harmed a mailbox. - I note that Riley identified it for the general public as a "wild bear." I think bears are a sort of sexual symbol in the Bverse - Daddy Bear, blondy bear, you created a bear, so maybe that makes sense. Or, maybe they didn't have any money in the show budget that week for body parts. :)
Riley, lying, spineless bastard as he is - I note that Riley was not the only one in the beginning that wasn't forthcoming on new relationships. It takes Buffy the entire episode to say that she's sleeping with Spike in actual words. She gets busted too. Everyone focuses on how Riley doesn't mention the new wife, but Buffy is just as guilty there. Of course, she's pathetic so I guess we can let her slide a litte. I think I hate him the most when he and the wifey go flying off in a beam of light and the music wells up like he's a good guy or something, when in fact he's become a big fat jerk and a heartbreaker.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I really wish I have time to watch this episode. I did a while back and I thought it wasn't that bad. I remember loving Riley's speech to Buffy, his character evolved nicely, all thanks to Buffy. I believe it was her that made him the great guy he is today. :) (Seriously, hope S8 don't ruin his character.)
Mar 02 2009 02:44 pm #5Scarlet Ibis
Everyone focuses on how Riley doesn't mention the new wife
I don't mean the wife thing. I mean all of that stuff before he ran away (emphasis on the "ran away" part). I'm trying to figure out why his opinion matters all of a sudden to, well, anyone in Sunnydale.
I don't mean the wife thing. I mean all of that stuff before he ran away (emphasis on the "ran away" part). I'm trying to figure out why his opinion matters all of a sudden to, well, anyone in Sunnydale.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I think of Spike and "The Doctor" as the metaphor and direct connect back to Buffy's reaching out to him in "Life Serial" - Spike was going to be her "life savior, her doctor for trying to solve her life problems." This is why, IMO. Riley uses that reference and why he uses it with such an aggressive attitude - Buffy continues to play her terrible life destruction game on Spike and herself. Sam and Riley are the fantasy figures but used with a great conversion of the inner demons and the real life of Buffy, Xander, Anya and Spike; their present and future are all about to be destroyed Riley, the supposed devastated Lover has easily found a replacement for his love within a very short time span. Xander and Anya will never even make it that far - their fantasy marriage, as well, is founded on denials of his fearsome inner demons. It's interesting how Buffy and Anya meet at this metaphorical "crossroads," - both women have connected their own lives much to their detriment with the Lovers. Anya is desperate to find her perfect wedding and partnership with Xander, who has not been honest with himself; Buffy has invested so much of her "life force" into her love life, that is makes her extremely vulnerable from those connections. Spike, IMO, is her equal and best love mate, but she is using him while at the same time destroying any potential for her love with him. Buffy is still holding on to her delusional ideas of "normal human mate and life," combined with her self-hatred and very poor self -image, IMO, is why she becomes such weak and pitiful when Riley shows up. Buffy goes into her fall back position of Humans equal good Spike/Demons equal bad, add the objectification of Spike as "The Doctor" for her pain and we end up with the actual killing that is taking place, her chance of real love between herself and Spike, her real life equal and good choice for her mate.
SPIKE: What's wrong, luv?
BUFFY: (struggling with her jacket) What's wrong?! You were gonna help me! You, you were gonna beat heads and, and, and fix my life! But you're completely lame! Tonight sucks! And, and look at me! Look at, look at stupid Buffy! Too dumb for college, and, and, and freak Buffy, too strong for construction work. And, and my job at the magic shop? I was bored to tears even *before* the hour that wouldn't end! And the only person I can even stand to be around is a ... neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker.
here is another example of just how sick and corrupted l the theme of Happy Marriage and Happy Fantasy Couples has become - note the use of "cake" -
SPIKE: What's wrong, luv?
BUFFY: (struggling with her jacket) What's wrong?! You were gonna help me! You, you were gonna beat heads and, and, and fix my life! But you're completely lame! Tonight sucks! And, and look at me! Look at, look at stupid Buffy! Too dumb for college, and, and, and freak Buffy, too strong for construction work. And, and my job at the magic shop? I was bored to tears even *before* the hour that wouldn't end! And the only person I can even stand to be around is a ... neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker.
here is another example of just how sick and corrupted l the theme of Happy Marriage and Happy Fantasy Couples has become - note the use of "cake" -
SPIKE: Buffy. Hey now. If I'd-a known you were coming, I'd-a baked a cake.
BUFFY: I need information.
SPIKE: Well, suppose I could be helpful. If the price is right. I'm not sure I'm selling out at Double Meat Palace wages, though.
BUFFY: I need to find a guy. Dealer. Calls himself The Doctor.
SPIKE: Human?
BUFFY: His traffic isn't.
SPIKE: Clock ticking?
BUFFY: Whatever he's doing, he's doing it soon.
SPIKE: Soon but not now?
BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised, happy) I love you. You know I do.
BUFFY: Tell me you want me.
SPIKE: I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up. (pulls him down, unbuttons his shirt)
I find this episode to be one of the most heart wrenching of all, while the alley scene in "Dead Things" is so brutal in the physical violence, this one is equally brutal in the metaphorical /psychological attack, the continuation of "killings" that have been shown in all the dreamscapes and the mirror conversion of Buffy's "it's killing me" to William/Spike.
Another great exposition of how Buffy sees Spike and her relationship with him - While Spike is all about So Much Love, Buffy is really all about So Much Use and So Much Hatred and Anger which she places all on him.
RILEY: By mission parameters I'm done here. But I have authorization to take the Doctor out. (pause) Do you want me to do that?
BUFFY: (shocked) Do I want you to... How can you ask me ... I'm sleeping with hi-him. (carefully) I'm sleeping with Spike.
RILEY: I had actually noticed that.
BUFFY: And then you come back ... and did you wait until your life was absolutely perfect and then send that demon here so you could throw it in my face?
Of course, the outcome from her very twisted road back to her life and metaphorical light is that she must do the killing of Spike. She calls him William, because she is finally, in her eyes, doing the right thing; she is killing the man and her dependence on him. It's a true pity for Spike, but a compelling and powerful story of a very tragic love.
Some of the saddest lines for me in the entire episode:ANYA: So our wedding... (Xander nodding) ...is not our marriage. (smiles)
ANYA: But our marriage...
XANDER: That lasts forever
Great film reference: Nick and Nora Fury play on "The Thin Man" also another couple where the male drank a great deal and was a crime fighter.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Been watching and reading my beloved Jane Austen again and was struck with the difference between the Wonderful Captain Wentworth of "Persuasion" and his declaration of the strength and duration of how a truly Strong Love effects a man - There is such a big contrast to his love for Anne (another Buffy connection) and the very short time that Riley has before he moves on to finding another love and mate. The idea that One Year is "lots of time" is one indication for me that the love between Buffy and Riley was not of the deep and mature love - if it had been, like Wentworth, he would not have moved on to his new love and wife within this very short time span.
I wish someone would consider doing a Spuffy version of "Persuasion" - Spike would be a wonderful variation of Wentworth and Giles simply is the perfect counterpart to Lady Russell.
SAM: I didn't mean to put you on the spot, Buffy. There's no bad guys in this one. The only thing that could ... help Riley work it out was time. Lots of time. Took him a year to get over you.
BUFFY: I'm glad he's over me.
the next part of their dialogue is another vital and revealing description of how Buffy sees Spike and their relationship - it's another heart ache about all the loss of a true love that could have been:
SAM: So, you seeing anyone new? Someone special?
BUFFY: You know, I just take my time, you know, I don't ... I don't wanna jump right into anything, don't wanna ... you know ... be defined by who I'm with.
SAM: Yeah, better no guy than the wrong guy, that's for sure.
I wish someone would consider doing a Spuffy version of "Persuasion" - Spike would be a wonderful variation of Wentworth and Giles simply is the perfect counterpart to Lady Russell.
SAM: I didn't mean to put you on the spot, Buffy. There's no bad guys in this one. The only thing that could ... help Riley work it out was time. Lots of time. Took him a year to get over you.
BUFFY: I'm glad he's over me.
the next part of their dialogue is another vital and revealing description of how Buffy sees Spike and their relationship - it's another heart ache about all the loss of a true love that could have been:
SAM: So, you seeing anyone new? Someone special?
BUFFY: You know, I just take my time, you know, I don't ... I don't wanna jump right into anything, don't wanna ... you know ... be defined by who I'm with.
SAM: Yeah, better no guy than the wrong guy, that's for sure.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 02 2009 10:01 pm #8Guest
Guest
Buffy defines *herself* by whomever she's with, so that line is hilarious.
Frankly, if the Riley coming back story had just been about "seeing an ex for the first time after the break-up", I would have been fine with that. He'd mentioned when he was with Buffy that he'd never been in love with anyone before her.........so he has limited experience in the area. They didn't last past the 2-year infatuation stage. Nothing wrong with that, really, as tons of relationships are short.....it's life. I'm sure he believed he was in love with Buffy and was in love with Buffy..........and it's very normal to think the first love was the Big Thing, until the Real Thing comes along - for him, his wife. They seemed to fit quite naturally. There are so many ways to go through a love life. Some people meet their soulmate in high school. Some people have to kiss a thousand frogs first. Some people are permanently single. When you're young, it's sooooo easy to think you've found "the real deal".......and you don't really know that you didn't actually have it, until you *do*. Then, the previous stuff pales in retrospect. Like going from black&white, to Technicolor.
No surprise Buffy gets defensive and accuses him of coming back to rub his great life in her face. That's how she works.
I don't think he'd do that, as he might have been a dick to Spike, but he always thought highly of Buffy.
Do I think he and Buffy could have worked it out and been happy if he'd stayed? No. And for very normal reasons - a relationship only works if you're partners, equals as full people......and they weren't, though that has nothing to do with male/female, size vs strength. Riley gave up his career and his friends, while Buffy still has *everything*.
When her mother is sick, he's there to allow her to be Normal Girl and let him, just him, see her "weak" and emotionally vulnerable - but she won't share. I've been with my guy 10 years, and both of us feel helpless when the other won't let us be there......it hurts. And it takes a long time to learn when you have to push, and when you need to butt out and let them handle it....waiting for them to come to you. Does it excuse him going to vampires and putting himself and the others at great risk? No.....but I do understand him. What Buffy didn't get at the time was when you are in a relationship, even though it's *easier* to go confide in your BFF, it's not always the best course of action for your love relationship......you have to start choosing to let your partner learn these things about you, too, or you shouldn't be there at all in the first place.
She gets some of that right with Spike later, letting him see things the others don't, but it was still *massively* lopsided. And she still wasn't ready to be someone's partner. Will she ever...?
Debatable.
I wish shows wouldn't take the cop-out of an external influence breaking a couple up - it never shows, or allows, the couple to grow as characters. If they decide, from looking at themself vs their boyfriend/girlfriend, that this isn't the right relationship and break it off - that's a mature decision. If something else gets in the way so they *can't* be together - false break-up. If outside forces push on the one character until they are *made* to decide the break-up - cheap writing. This episode would have been SO much more emotionally effective if Buffy had made the choice to end it without the stupid sub-plot of "Spike the arms dealer".
We would have gone "Wow, she's growing up", if she'd looked at things and had a wake-up call about her behavior, then ended it kindly. If it had been an internal choice based on what she thought was best for both of them, we could have respected her.........and empathized with BOTH of them. (The scripted words aren't unkind, but Sarah didn't play it right, IMO.) We didn't need to be told "Spike is BAD" to have justification for the break-up - it was obviously an unhealthy relationship!
I don't know how as writers you justify emotional cop-outs..........unless they were too dysfunctional to even notice. ???
CM
Frankly, if the Riley coming back story had just been about "seeing an ex for the first time after the break-up", I would have been fine with that. He'd mentioned when he was with Buffy that he'd never been in love with anyone before her.........so he has limited experience in the area. They didn't last past the 2-year infatuation stage. Nothing wrong with that, really, as tons of relationships are short.....it's life. I'm sure he believed he was in love with Buffy and was in love with Buffy..........and it's very normal to think the first love was the Big Thing, until the Real Thing comes along - for him, his wife. They seemed to fit quite naturally. There are so many ways to go through a love life. Some people meet their soulmate in high school. Some people have to kiss a thousand frogs first. Some people are permanently single. When you're young, it's sooooo easy to think you've found "the real deal".......and you don't really know that you didn't actually have it, until you *do*. Then, the previous stuff pales in retrospect. Like going from black&white, to Technicolor.
No surprise Buffy gets defensive and accuses him of coming back to rub his great life in her face. That's how she works.
I don't think he'd do that, as he might have been a dick to Spike, but he always thought highly of Buffy.
Do I think he and Buffy could have worked it out and been happy if he'd stayed? No. And for very normal reasons - a relationship only works if you're partners, equals as full people......and they weren't, though that has nothing to do with male/female, size vs strength. Riley gave up his career and his friends, while Buffy still has *everything*.
When her mother is sick, he's there to allow her to be Normal Girl and let him, just him, see her "weak" and emotionally vulnerable - but she won't share. I've been with my guy 10 years, and both of us feel helpless when the other won't let us be there......it hurts. And it takes a long time to learn when you have to push, and when you need to butt out and let them handle it....waiting for them to come to you. Does it excuse him going to vampires and putting himself and the others at great risk? No.....but I do understand him. What Buffy didn't get at the time was when you are in a relationship, even though it's *easier* to go confide in your BFF, it's not always the best course of action for your love relationship......you have to start choosing to let your partner learn these things about you, too, or you shouldn't be there at all in the first place.
She gets some of that right with Spike later, letting him see things the others don't, but it was still *massively* lopsided. And she still wasn't ready to be someone's partner. Will she ever...?
Debatable.
I wish shows wouldn't take the cop-out of an external influence breaking a couple up - it never shows, or allows, the couple to grow as characters. If they decide, from looking at themself vs their boyfriend/girlfriend, that this isn't the right relationship and break it off - that's a mature decision. If something else gets in the way so they *can't* be together - false break-up. If outside forces push on the one character until they are *made* to decide the break-up - cheap writing. This episode would have been SO much more emotionally effective if Buffy had made the choice to end it without the stupid sub-plot of "Spike the arms dealer".
We would have gone "Wow, she's growing up", if she'd looked at things and had a wake-up call about her behavior, then ended it kindly. If it had been an internal choice based on what she thought was best for both of them, we could have respected her.........and empathized with BOTH of them. (The scripted words aren't unkind, but Sarah didn't play it right, IMO.) We didn't need to be told "Spike is BAD" to have justification for the break-up - it was obviously an unhealthy relationship!
I don't know how as writers you justify emotional cop-outs..........unless they were too dysfunctional to even notice. ???
CM
Mar 02 2009 10:35 pm #9slaymesoftly
Moderator
Very insightful, CM. Nicely done.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 03 2009 01:30 am #10Spikez_tart
BUFFY: And then you come back ... and did you wait until your life was absolutely perfect and then send that demon here so you could throw it in my face? - That indicates to me that Riley was involved in getting the demon to Sunnydale. No telling what story he gave the little woman.
The scripted words aren't unkind, but Sarah didn't play it right, IMO - Sarah probably played it just the way Joss wanted and I thought she did fine, given that I hated what they made her do. Grrr. What irks me is that when I saw the show the first time, she says "I can't love you now." On the current DVD, she says, "I can't love you." More Grrrr.
Buffy and Riley were a boring boring couple - He's an athletic college student who fights demons and she's an athletic college student who fights demons. Snore. Also, I hate Riley. I didn't hate Riley up until this episode, but now I hate him. See Scarlet above - spineless and gutless. Also, I hate Sam. I'd like to smack her. They're a boring couple too.
Also, why does Riley need Buffy's help? He's got the big assed SUV, and the helicopter and the James Bond gadgets and the wifey and no doubt other soldiers. Why even bother with Buffy? Why, cause he wants to rub her nose in the fact that he got married and he and the little woman are sooooo in love and fighting demons together and sooooo normal and gee Buffy look what you threw away and you ended up with a skanky vampire. Again.
Giles and Jane Austen - hope you saw Persuasion with Anthony Head. He plays Anne's stuck up father. :)
The scripted words aren't unkind, but Sarah didn't play it right, IMO - Sarah probably played it just the way Joss wanted and I thought she did fine, given that I hated what they made her do. Grrr. What irks me is that when I saw the show the first time, she says "I can't love you now." On the current DVD, she says, "I can't love you." More Grrrr.
Buffy and Riley were a boring boring couple - He's an athletic college student who fights demons and she's an athletic college student who fights demons. Snore. Also, I hate Riley. I didn't hate Riley up until this episode, but now I hate him. See Scarlet above - spineless and gutless. Also, I hate Sam. I'd like to smack her. They're a boring couple too.
Also, why does Riley need Buffy's help? He's got the big assed SUV, and the helicopter and the James Bond gadgets and the wifey and no doubt other soldiers. Why even bother with Buffy? Why, cause he wants to rub her nose in the fact that he got married and he and the little woman are sooooo in love and fighting demons together and sooooo normal and gee Buffy look what you threw away and you ended up with a skanky vampire. Again.
Giles and Jane Austen - hope you saw Persuasion with Anthony Head. He plays Anne's stuck up father. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 03 2009 04:41 am #11Guest
Guest
I wouldn't hold my breath hoping that Riley won't be ruined in season 8, it seems to have ruined everyone's character.
I read this in an essay on Tea At The Ford--I have no idea who said it, but the point is this: There isn't a chance in hell that Spike could be an international arms dealer with no phone number one, especially not being too friendly with the other demons in town, and two? There really isn't a chance in hell he'd use the alias "Doc," who was responsible for his "failure" in "The Gift."
I also hated how his involvement with this Super Powerful Arms Dealer was never explained or referenced with any logical connections - Here is Spike without any supporting evidence for this new and powerful persona - Spike that is normally shown with no concern for large amounts of money - living and apparently satisfied with money he makes from card games and other money making efforts. It's completely illogical to have Spike be this "Doctor" arms dealer - he could have been "holding or storing" the eggs in order to make money, but to be the person in charge of setting up this arms sales ring - there is nothing to support the premise in this season or the series. Considering how vital his participation as "The Doctor" was and how this was the final push for Buffy's breaking away from him, IMO. it ought to have had some explanation, not treated the same way that "Dead Things" was. This huge event happens and the writers did not give any supporting treatment for the main event which is the Buffy-Spike relationship.
I did watch, and purchased, the latest Persuasion BBC production - ASH was an excellent Sir Walter - the production was not my favorite but done well enough -
I also hated how his involvement with this Super Powerful Arms Dealer was never explained or referenced with any logical connections - Here is Spike without any supporting evidence for this new and powerful persona - Spike that is normally shown with no concern for large amounts of money - living and apparently satisfied with money he makes from card games and other money making efforts. It's completely illogical to have Spike be this "Doctor" arms dealer - he could have been "holding or storing" the eggs in order to make money, but to be the person in charge of setting up this arms sales ring - there is nothing to support the premise in this season or the series. Considering how vital his participation as "The Doctor" was and how this was the final push for Buffy's breaking away from him, IMO. it ought to have had some explanation, not treated the same way that "Dead Things" was. This huge event happens and the writers did not give any supporting treatment for the main event which is the Buffy-Spike relationship.
I did watch, and purchased, the latest Persuasion BBC production - ASH was an excellent Sir Walter - the production was not my favorite but done well enough -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I wouldn't hold my breath hoping that Riley won't be ruined in season 8, it seems to have ruined everyone's character.
Actually, S8 made love Faith. :) I find Buffy and Xander to be written so well. Andrew is great too.
Actually, S8 made love Faith. :) I find Buffy and Xander to be written so well. Andrew is great too.
Mar 03 2009 12:30 pm #14Shell Presto
I also hated how his involvement with this Super Powerful Arms Dealer was never explained or referenced with any logical connections -
The very first time I watched this episode, it made perfect sense that Spike would be holding onto the eggs for money to pay off Buffy's house and other bills. It's completely in line with his constantly wanting to be prove his feelings to her, and his wanting her to stop working at Doublemeat.
It also made sense to me that he wouldn't try to explain that to her after she showed up with Riley, because, quite frankly, he would have realized how stupid it was to try to help black market trafficking to try to get money for Buffy. Really, he only could have impressed her (although she probably wouldn't have been impressed) with it after he had the money in hand and had gotten rid of the eggs. If she knew where he got the cash from, he could never get to to accept it, whereas if he already had it, he could make up any story he wanted.
I totally didn't believe he was the doctor. It's just not Spike. I took the line that he was just holding them for a friend at face value, expecially because he didn't know to keep the eggs cold or seem to realize how dangerous they were. And it really bothered me that Riley stepped in, because for all we know, Spike would have helped Buffy destroy the eggs if she explained how dangerous they were -- after all, in all these things, his main goal is to please her, and if destroying the eggs was more important than money to her, he probably would have done it.
But by the end of the episode, there was nothing for Spike to say or explain, because he had to know what he did was stupid, and Buffy never trusted him, or else she wouldn't have asked for his side of the story before leaving.
Consequently, the Angel/Buffy crossover novel (which I just read last week) "Cursed" creates a very believable backstory to Spike's egg-dealing on the premise that he was doing it for buffy, and a friend screwed him over. I'd love to think of it as canon and I recommend scoping it out.
The very first time I watched this episode, it made perfect sense that Spike would be holding onto the eggs for money to pay off Buffy's house and other bills. It's completely in line with his constantly wanting to be prove his feelings to her, and his wanting her to stop working at Doublemeat.
It also made sense to me that he wouldn't try to explain that to her after she showed up with Riley, because, quite frankly, he would have realized how stupid it was to try to help black market trafficking to try to get money for Buffy. Really, he only could have impressed her (although she probably wouldn't have been impressed) with it after he had the money in hand and had gotten rid of the eggs. If she knew where he got the cash from, he could never get to to accept it, whereas if he already had it, he could make up any story he wanted.
I totally didn't believe he was the doctor. It's just not Spike. I took the line that he was just holding them for a friend at face value, expecially because he didn't know to keep the eggs cold or seem to realize how dangerous they were. And it really bothered me that Riley stepped in, because for all we know, Spike would have helped Buffy destroy the eggs if she explained how dangerous they were -- after all, in all these things, his main goal is to please her, and if destroying the eggs was more important than money to her, he probably would have done it.
But by the end of the episode, there was nothing for Spike to say or explain, because he had to know what he did was stupid, and Buffy never trusted him, or else she wouldn't have asked for his side of the story before leaving.
Consequently, the Angel/Buffy crossover novel (which I just read last week) "Cursed" creates a very believable backstory to Spike's egg-dealing on the premise that he was doing it for buffy, and a friend screwed him over. I'd love to think of it as canon and I recommend scoping it out.
I'm guessing the problem with the episode is the same as OMWF. They just chose Spike to be The Doctor to prove that he's an evil demon and make Buffy realize she needs to break up with him without considering characterization or the actual plot... just like their choice to have Xander summon Sweet without considering characterization or continuity just to have the "Can I be your queen?" joke.
In short, it's just a plot device that doesn't get mentioned ever again.
Mar 03 2009 06:40 pm #16Scarlet Ibis
just like their choice to have Xander summon Sweet without considering characterization or continuity just to have the "Can I be your queen?" joke.
The OMWF thing made some sense. Xander was in the Magic Box often enough to have access to the little necklace and the simple chant. Spike being a national arms dealer while literally living in a hole, who still has to hustle for money, and with no phone? That's just retarded, unless being in that business just isn't very profitable. Not to mention tons of luck at not knowing how to properly store eggs of "killing machines," which I use lightly sense the demon killed no one, and attacked on defense. Mostly, I'm thinking only Buffy really bought that one.
The OMWF thing made some sense. Xander was in the Magic Box often enough to have access to the little necklace and the simple chant. Spike being a national arms dealer while literally living in a hole, who still has to hustle for money, and with no phone? That's just retarded, unless being in that business just isn't very profitable. Not to mention tons of luck at not knowing how to properly store eggs of "killing machines," which I use lightly sense the demon killed no one, and attacked on defense. Mostly, I'm thinking only Buffy really bought that one.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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In the end, both were used as plot devices and were never mentioned again, so to the writers, both aren't important to the whole season arc or the characters.
What doesn't make sense in Xander's situation is him knowing about the deaths and not confessing earlier? Is he really this inhuman? We've already seen him mess with magic before and when things went out of hand, he went to talk to Giles about it.
Spike's situation makes sense in the fact that he wants to get money for Buffy, and he'll do anything, even if illigal or evil to get it. But as you said, the plot is stupid and doesn't make sense.
What doesn't make sense in Xander's situation is him knowing about the deaths and not confessing earlier? Is he really this inhuman? We've already seen him mess with magic before and when things went out of hand, he went to talk to Giles about it.
Spike's situation makes sense in the fact that he wants to get money for Buffy, and he'll do anything, even if illigal or evil to get it. But as you said, the plot is stupid and doesn't make sense.
Considering how vital his participation as "The Doctor" was and how this was the final push for Buffy's breaking away from him
Buffy breaking up with Spike had nothing to do with him being the Doctor. She specifically says she's not there because of his "stupid scheme." She's there because she's realized how screwed up her life is, and she wants to start turning it around. I honestly don't think it would've mattered if Spike was the Doctor, or working for the Doctor, or totally innocent. And given that she says, "I'm using you," as the reason she's breaking up with him, I'd imagine that the seeds of this break-up were planted back in "Dead Things," when she tells Tara she's using Spike and "What's okay about that?" Riley showing up only maybe helped it happen sooner.
And come on, if Buffy really did believe Spike was an international arms dealer, don't you think she'd have had a bigger reaction than "that's just you"? Seems pretty obvious to me that Buffy believed Spike when he said he was just holding them for a friend - he had a stupid scheme to make some quick cash, and it blew up in his face (like most of his schemes do) because it was way more complicated than he realized.
Buffy breaking up with Spike had nothing to do with him being the Doctor. She specifically says she's not there because of his "stupid scheme." She's there because she's realized how screwed up her life is, and she wants to start turning it around. I honestly don't think it would've mattered if Spike was the Doctor, or working for the Doctor, or totally innocent. And given that she says, "I'm using you," as the reason she's breaking up with him, I'd imagine that the seeds of this break-up were planted back in "Dead Things," when she tells Tara she's using Spike and "What's okay about that?" Riley showing up only maybe helped it happen sooner.
And come on, if Buffy really did believe Spike was an international arms dealer, don't you think she'd have had a bigger reaction than "that's just you"? Seems pretty obvious to me that Buffy believed Spike when he said he was just holding them for a friend - he had a stupid scheme to make some quick cash, and it blew up in his face (like most of his schemes do) because it was way more complicated than he realized.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I was using the title "The Doctor" as a symbol of the metaphor for their relationship and how she was using him to try and make a connection with her world after her resurrection - not meaning that Spike was this real life arms dealer that Riley assigned to him. Completely agree with you that Spike would have been holding the eggs as a quick way to make money -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 04 2009 04:26 am #20Spikez_tart
it was way more complicated than he realized. - and way more complicated that the writers ever fully explain. Also, why couldn't they have given the international arms dealer a different nickname? Why use the name of the Joel Grey character. Makes no sense.
Also, it seems that Buffy never told any of her buddies the real reason why they split up. Apparently,she and Spike are the only ones that know Riley was having it off with vamp girl trulls. Incredibly, Dawn is the only one (besides SPike) who isn't falling over themselves happy to see Riley, although even she softens up.
Xander's whole slobbering all over Riley act makes me sick. Why doesn't he just get a knife and stick it in Buffy's heart and twist it around for a while? Is he doing this on purpose to punish her for never giving him the time of day except as a friend?
Also, it seems that Buffy never told any of her buddies the real reason why they split up. Apparently,she and Spike are the only ones that know Riley was having it off with vamp girl trulls. Incredibly, Dawn is the only one (besides SPike) who isn't falling over themselves happy to see Riley, although even she softens up.
Xander's whole slobbering all over Riley act makes me sick. Why doesn't he just get a knife and stick it in Buffy's heart and twist it around for a while? Is he doing this on purpose to punish her for never giving him the time of day except as a friend?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Had a chance to watch this episode again - and I was remained again how totally annoyed I was with the treatment of Buffy in this episode.
Would very much like to get some ideas about why Buffy was made so vulnerable and, frankly IMO a very pitiable position, with regards to Riley. Are the viewers suppose to take away from this episode that Buffy was still completely in love with this character? When we consider that it was Xander's big "If His the One" speech that sent her running after Riley, the way that she goes into this auto "OMG, it's Riley" and I what seems to be a "I want him back in my life again " - I just don't get why the writers made her so vulnerable. We get that the episode has many layers and that one of those layers is the huge contrast between Normal Good Human Boyfriend and The Soulless Fiendish Miserable Vamp - but why make Buffy into this sickly paining for her lost love? What were the writers telling us about her? Does Buffy really need Riley & Sam (the fantasy perfect couple) as the big catalytic event that brings this new and improved insight to her? It does not speak very highly of the Hero model for the series. With all the body language that SMG used throughout the entire episode I kept thinking that she was really pathetic. I never felt any kind of sympathy for her predicament, all I felt was pissed off that she would go all "crazy in love paining mode" for a man that left her behind.
Riley would not have been happy or fulfilled being the Slayer's second fiddle - as he states himself he loves his job- which was a job that he had to give up in order to be in her life. I don't think that a person who has a passion and commitment to a profession can easily let it go - I think we saw that Riley was having a desire to be back in the military - he missed it very much. Plus the whole, I moved on from Buffy and now fell in love and married another woman - what; within 8 or 9 months. Pretty fast get
To me this is still part of the cycle of inner demons/dreamscapes - but I still hate to see Buffy in such a weak place. And a huge KUDOS to both SMG and JM for their splendid interpretations and performances - I felt sick (as I was meant to) with both Buffy's heartless treatment of Spike while still feeling sick over how vulnerable she is seeing Riley. And JM - this is, IMO, one of his most commendable performances in the season and series - He is perfect with the contrast between the stupid macho upmanship attitude with Riley and the emotionally broken man from the point that Buffy sees him as part of the scheme. JM was wonderful in the scenes at his crypt - I felt so sorry for him and how he is willing to take Buffy on any terms. He knows that he is nothing to her but a sexual escape from her pain - almost his first words to her when she returns is a reference to cold comfort and sex.
Did the writers think that viewers were not going to feel some connection and sympathy with Spike and some pretty fair amount of distaste for their female heroine? Even within the context of dreamscape symbolism, Buffy does not come off as a woman-hero that I feel much sympathy with.
Did you feel sympathy or respect for Buffy in this episode? Aside from the "journey of maturity and finding self-awareness, I came away from seeing this episode again with a real feeling of disappointment with just about everyone accept Willow - Iove all the lines the gave her.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2009 04:01 am #22Scarlet Ibis
I think Doug Petrie wrote this ep, correct? He...has a huge, fangirly crush on Riley, to say the least, and his bias made the other characters suffer, IMHO, just so he could force Riley into the "cool kids" column, which seemed wrong and forced.
I do think the writers did believe that viewers weren't going to feel a connection and sympathy with Spike throughout this season in general, let alone this episode (even though they grossly cut down the last scene where his heart pretty much breaks, the small part they did keep in the final cut still gets to me. In its entirety, it makes me cry, which is no easy feat). Every time they more or less failed, they pushed the envelope even more (SR), hoping to win the whole audience over to Buffy's side. Their plan was of FAIL. I know there are some who identified/sympathised/respected Buffy in this episode or this season generally, but I am not one of them.
I do think the writers did believe that viewers weren't going to feel a connection and sympathy with Spike throughout this season in general, let alone this episode (even though they grossly cut down the last scene where his heart pretty much breaks, the small part they did keep in the final cut still gets to me. In its entirety, it makes me cry, which is no easy feat). Every time they more or less failed, they pushed the envelope even more (SR), hoping to win the whole audience over to Buffy's side. Their plan was of FAIL. I know there are some who identified/sympathised/respected Buffy in this episode or this season generally, but I am not one of them.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 05 2009 11:30 am #23Spikez_tart
I figured it out. Spike says he's holding the eggs for a friend. He only has one friend and that's--- Clem! Clem is Doc the international arms dealer. He comes and goes at Spike's crypt all the time. It must be him. :)
He loves his job - Interesting that Riley tells Buffy that he loves his job and he loves his wife. Wife comes second
He loves his job - Interesting that Riley tells Buffy that he loves his job and he loves his wife. Wife comes second
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I know there are some who identified/sympathised/respected Buffy in this episode or this season generally, but I am not one of them.
Buffy is so cruel in this episode - considering how she just used him again for "pain relief" - how could anyone feel sympathy or even respect her at this point:
RILEY: We're gonna need more weapons. Spike screwed up. You didn't keep 'em frozen, did you ... Doctor?
SPIKE: You can stop calling me that any time. If I may, the thing of it is, I'm holding these for a friend, who-
(Buffy punches him in the nose again)
BUFFY: No more games.
SPIKE: (upset) Well, that's bloody funny coming from you! No more games? That's all you've ever done is play me. You keep playing with rules you make up as you like. You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same.
RILEY: Can you shut him up?
BUFFY: Not so far.
I think Spike is "The Doctor" but he is the corruption that lives in Buffy's mind - and I tell you one thing, I do feel sorry for Buffy, but I feel sorry for how weak and vulnerable they made her in relationship to Riley. If the last scene between Buffy and Riley is suppose to be a redemption for her character's weakness and cruelty and justification for the sexual objectification of Spike - the writer, IMVHO, completely missed his mark.
Is it a particularly "women's sensibility" that makes me feel such sympathy with Spike used as an "objectification sexual model" or such anger that Buffy was made so weak in this persona of "little girl looking for her perfect love." Considering all the powerful and brutal emotions that have been set up throughout the season, having Buffy be so susceptible to her lost love; I just don't get it. As a story and plot device, if that was what the writer's intended, it stinks and fails on so many ways. As Spikez_tart commented - Spike has no friends outside of Clem and Spike as an active arms dealer is utterly preposterous. Fact is the only people involved in arms dealing would be the wonderful goody perfect couple Riley and Sam dealing within the dirty and bloody politics of South America.
The only way that this episode makes any sense to me is as Buffy and Spike in nightmare and Buffy having one really bad night in the dreamscape world.
Buffy is so cruel in this episode - considering how she just used him again for "pain relief" - how could anyone feel sympathy or even respect her at this point:
RILEY: We're gonna need more weapons. Spike screwed up. You didn't keep 'em frozen, did you ... Doctor?
SPIKE: You can stop calling me that any time. If I may, the thing of it is, I'm holding these for a friend, who-
(Buffy punches him in the nose again)
BUFFY: No more games.
SPIKE: (upset) Well, that's bloody funny coming from you! No more games? That's all you've ever done is play me. You keep playing with rules you make up as you like. You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same.
RILEY: Can you shut him up?
BUFFY: Not so far.
I think Spike is "The Doctor" but he is the corruption that lives in Buffy's mind - and I tell you one thing, I do feel sorry for Buffy, but I feel sorry for how weak and vulnerable they made her in relationship to Riley. If the last scene between Buffy and Riley is suppose to be a redemption for her character's weakness and cruelty and justification for the sexual objectification of Spike - the writer, IMVHO, completely missed his mark.
Is it a particularly "women's sensibility" that makes me feel such sympathy with Spike used as an "objectification sexual model" or such anger that Buffy was made so weak in this persona of "little girl looking for her perfect love." Considering all the powerful and brutal emotions that have been set up throughout the season, having Buffy be so susceptible to her lost love; I just don't get it. As a story and plot device, if that was what the writer's intended, it stinks and fails on so many ways. As Spikez_tart commented - Spike has no friends outside of Clem and Spike as an active arms dealer is utterly preposterous. Fact is the only people involved in arms dealing would be the wonderful goody perfect couple Riley and Sam dealing within the dirty and bloody politics of South America.
The only way that this episode makes any sense to me is as Buffy and Spike in nightmare and Buffy having one really bad night in the dreamscape world.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2009 08:42 am #25Shell Presto
I don't think this episode was supposed to make us sympathize with Buffy. I think the whole point of this episode was for Buffy to really discover how far she's fallen -- and I think the biggest evidence of that is right in the beginning when a dead vampire doesn't want to fight her because she smells.
Riley is brought in to remind Buffy of what she wants -- a normal relationship, a boyfriend her friends won't protest her dating -- vs what she has, Spike, who lives outside of society, can't be in the sun, doesn't have a soul, and someone all her friends hate.
Riley also has moved up himself. He has a loving wife, a normal relationship and a job that he loves. And his reappearance makes Buffy really assess what she's doing.
Really, seaon six is about dealing with all the hard knocks life can throw at you, the unfortunate truth about growing up. Buffy's in no position to love anyone, her life is one big hurdle at this point. It's really only everything coming to a head that makes her leave Spike, and even that could be another fall, as he does provide her comfort.
But it goes in theme with the whole season: Buffy has, by this point ignored her sister, Giles, her best friend, and once again Spike, so everyone close to her. She's learning what she can't live without, which is, sadly, another part ot growing up.
Riley is brought in to remind Buffy of what she wants -- a normal relationship, a boyfriend her friends won't protest her dating -- vs what she has, Spike, who lives outside of society, can't be in the sun, doesn't have a soul, and someone all her friends hate.
Riley also has moved up himself. He has a loving wife, a normal relationship and a job that he loves. And his reappearance makes Buffy really assess what she's doing.
Really, seaon six is about dealing with all the hard knocks life can throw at you, the unfortunate truth about growing up. Buffy's in no position to love anyone, her life is one big hurdle at this point. It's really only everything coming to a head that makes her leave Spike, and even that could be another fall, as he does provide her comfort.
But it goes in theme with the whole season: Buffy has, by this point ignored her sister, Giles, her best friend, and once again Spike, so everyone close to her. She's learning what she can't live without, which is, sadly, another part ot growing up.
Mar 07 2009 09:10 am #26Scarlet Ibis
a normal relationship, a boyfriend her friends won't protest her dating -- vs what she has, Spike, who lives outside of society, can't be in the sun, doesn't have a soul, and someone all her friends hate.
Buffy's had a "normal" relationship before, and that didn't work. And the Scoobies didn't hate Spike. If they were to object to her dating him (which I doubt), it would have lasted for all of five seconds. I think they all would have been understanding about it, and went on with their daily business. At that point, the person with the biggest hang ups about dating Spike was Buffy. And Riley, but really, his opinion shouldn't matter.
ETA: Spike could never be a human, so that aspect of normalcy was impossible. However, if one defines "normal" as dates, and chivalry and taking care of his lady in whatever way she needed it, Spike was more than capable of such things if given the chance. But he wasn't allowed--he wasn't allowed to court Buffy, he wasn't allowed to be romantic with her, and he wasn't allowed to love her the way that he wanted. Spike's very devoted to the people who matter to him, and if given that chance, then normalcy, for the most part, excluding a warm body (cause let's face it--daylight didn't hinder Spike very much), would have been obtainable in a relationship with Spike if Buffy wanted it. She didn't.
Buffy's had a "normal" relationship before, and that didn't work. And the Scoobies didn't hate Spike. If they were to object to her dating him (which I doubt), it would have lasted for all of five seconds. I think they all would have been understanding about it, and went on with their daily business. At that point, the person with the biggest hang ups about dating Spike was Buffy. And Riley, but really, his opinion shouldn't matter.
ETA: Spike could never be a human, so that aspect of normalcy was impossible. However, if one defines "normal" as dates, and chivalry and taking care of his lady in whatever way she needed it, Spike was more than capable of such things if given the chance. But he wasn't allowed--he wasn't allowed to court Buffy, he wasn't allowed to be romantic with her, and he wasn't allowed to love her the way that he wanted. Spike's very devoted to the people who matter to him, and if given that chance, then normalcy, for the most part, excluding a warm body (cause let's face it--daylight didn't hinder Spike very much), would have been obtainable in a relationship with Spike if Buffy wanted it. She didn't.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 08 2009 07:16 am #27Shell Presto
And the Scoobies didn't hate Spike. If they were to object to her dating him (which I doubt), it would have lasted for all of five seconds.
I can't agree. Willow, Dawn and Tara would have been okay with her dating Spike, sure, but both Giles and Xander would have continued to make her very uncomfortable. They both didn't like her dating Angel, who had a soul, and for the most part, then never let it drop. Spike, on the other hand, has no conscious, nothing besides the chip and his love for Buffy holding him back. As evidences in the first episode of season six, he still think causing havoc and chaos is fun, he just doesn't do it because of the chip and Buffy.
And while doing it for Buffy should be enough, it wouldn't be to Giles and Xander -- neither of whom trust him even when he does have a soul. So if he never even got that, it would be very rough going for Buffy.
I just watched this episode again today, and I forgot how -- even though I think Buffy is a bitch through most of the episode, particularly when she makes the comment about to riley about having no success getting spike to shut up -- i still sympathized with her over not being able to love spike. When she says she wants him but can't love him, you have to give her a little leeway. It's easy to forget Spike doesn't have a soul, but really, he doesn't.
Which is a whole other debate on its own, one I'm sure that's been discussed on here somewhere, but I'm new. I always wonder, if a demon shacks up in your head when you become a vampire, but spike seems so normal, did parts of his soul stay, (much like the fight between angel and angelus in season 4 of Angel) or is his brain just so completely hardwired to be that caring that the demon in him couldn't escape it?
I can't agree. Willow, Dawn and Tara would have been okay with her dating Spike, sure, but both Giles and Xander would have continued to make her very uncomfortable. They both didn't like her dating Angel, who had a soul, and for the most part, then never let it drop. Spike, on the other hand, has no conscious, nothing besides the chip and his love for Buffy holding him back. As evidences in the first episode of season six, he still think causing havoc and chaos is fun, he just doesn't do it because of the chip and Buffy.
And while doing it for Buffy should be enough, it wouldn't be to Giles and Xander -- neither of whom trust him even when he does have a soul. So if he never even got that, it would be very rough going for Buffy.
I just watched this episode again today, and I forgot how -- even though I think Buffy is a bitch through most of the episode, particularly when she makes the comment about to riley about having no success getting spike to shut up -- i still sympathized with her over not being able to love spike. When she says she wants him but can't love him, you have to give her a little leeway. It's easy to forget Spike doesn't have a soul, but really, he doesn't.
Which is a whole other debate on its own, one I'm sure that's been discussed on here somewhere, but I'm new. I always wonder, if a demon shacks up in your head when you become a vampire, but spike seems so normal, did parts of his soul stay, (much like the fight between angel and angelus in season 4 of Angel) or is his brain just so completely hardwired to be that caring that the demon in him couldn't escape it?
Mar 08 2009 07:45 am #28Scarlet Ibis
it wouldn't be to Giles and Xander -- neither of whom trust him even when he does have a soul.
That's not exactly true. Think about the opening of s6--Giles and Spike had a friendly repertoire going. Giles (as well as the others) trusted having Spike at their backs to not just work with them, but protect them. All this was going on and had been going on for nearly half a year while Buffy was dead. Season seven, Xander did trust Spike--a recently insane Spike no less. There was no reason why he had to let Spike live with him (again). Go to sleep while Spike was under his roof...There was trust there. And really, even if Giles had a problem (which he didn't--he laughed when he found out. I think he knew it was coming, one way or another), he wasn't there to voice it. Xander is very forgiving, and the only thing he wanted what was best for Buffy. If Spike was able to make things easier for her, Xander would have been okay with it. Think about when he thought she was sleeping with Spike in "Intervention"--he didn't flip out then, and season six is when Spike was more integrated into the group. The situation wouldn't have been worse than his reaction then, which wasn't much of a negative reaction at all.
always wonder, if a demon shacks up in your head when you become a vampire, but spike seems so normal, did parts of his soul stay, (much like the fight between angel and angelus in season 4 of Angel) or is his brain just so completely hardwired to be that caring that the demon in him couldn't escape it?
Well, we are the sum of our memories. One of the first things that Spike did upon becoming a vampire was to try and save his mother from an ugly, drawn out, painful death of comsumption. He didn't wish to harm her in any shape or form. And a soul does not a good person make. Look at Maggie Walsh. Faith. Warren. Willow. Anya. Darla (when resurrected). Mayor Wilkins (who purposely sold his soul for power and immortality) Harmony. Clem. And of course, Spike. The show says that having a soul makes you good (though I do think Angel has a personality disorder, to say the least), but these people and vampires (and demon) show that it's more than that--much more. Darla had a soul when she killed that actor, Willow had a soul when she killed Warren, tried to kill her friends along with Jonathan and Andrew, Giles, and the world. Anya was offered to become a vengeance demon after her stint of exacting vengeance as a human. Becoming a vengeance demon only entails obtaining a power center from D'Hoffryn, which allows the wearer it's given to to grant wishes and be an immortal. Anya never lost her soul through all of that. Harmony, beyond her sun allergy and change in diet, was exactly the same personality wise. And season five of Angel? She went cold turkey so she could have a great job with a dental plan. And you know the story of the rest of the folks I mentioned ;) So that whole "Spike's not good enough cause of his lack of soul" thing irks me because of all of the other stuff we were shown. It was never that cut and dry. Maybe season 1, but after that, all bets were off.
ETA: Also, there is no evidence that says Dawn was given a soul. The monk tells Buffy that they "made the key flesh," and said that she was an innocent. Either way you cut it, I don't see a group of guys, no matter how much magic they have up their sleeves, creating a soul out of nothing. Just saying.
Sorry for the ramble :P
That's not exactly true. Think about the opening of s6--Giles and Spike had a friendly repertoire going. Giles (as well as the others) trusted having Spike at their backs to not just work with them, but protect them. All this was going on and had been going on for nearly half a year while Buffy was dead. Season seven, Xander did trust Spike--a recently insane Spike no less. There was no reason why he had to let Spike live with him (again). Go to sleep while Spike was under his roof...There was trust there. And really, even if Giles had a problem (which he didn't--he laughed when he found out. I think he knew it was coming, one way or another), he wasn't there to voice it. Xander is very forgiving, and the only thing he wanted what was best for Buffy. If Spike was able to make things easier for her, Xander would have been okay with it. Think about when he thought she was sleeping with Spike in "Intervention"--he didn't flip out then, and season six is when Spike was more integrated into the group. The situation wouldn't have been worse than his reaction then, which wasn't much of a negative reaction at all.
always wonder, if a demon shacks up in your head when you become a vampire, but spike seems so normal, did parts of his soul stay, (much like the fight between angel and angelus in season 4 of Angel) or is his brain just so completely hardwired to be that caring that the demon in him couldn't escape it?
Well, we are the sum of our memories. One of the first things that Spike did upon becoming a vampire was to try and save his mother from an ugly, drawn out, painful death of comsumption. He didn't wish to harm her in any shape or form. And a soul does not a good person make. Look at Maggie Walsh. Faith. Warren. Willow. Anya. Darla (when resurrected). Mayor Wilkins (who purposely sold his soul for power and immortality) Harmony. Clem. And of course, Spike. The show says that having a soul makes you good (though I do think Angel has a personality disorder, to say the least), but these people and vampires (and demon) show that it's more than that--much more. Darla had a soul when she killed that actor, Willow had a soul when she killed Warren, tried to kill her friends along with Jonathan and Andrew, Giles, and the world. Anya was offered to become a vengeance demon after her stint of exacting vengeance as a human. Becoming a vengeance demon only entails obtaining a power center from D'Hoffryn, which allows the wearer it's given to to grant wishes and be an immortal. Anya never lost her soul through all of that. Harmony, beyond her sun allergy and change in diet, was exactly the same personality wise. And season five of Angel? She went cold turkey so she could have a great job with a dental plan. And you know the story of the rest of the folks I mentioned ;) So that whole "Spike's not good enough cause of his lack of soul" thing irks me because of all of the other stuff we were shown. It was never that cut and dry. Maybe season 1, but after that, all bets were off.
ETA: Also, there is no evidence that says Dawn was given a soul. The monk tells Buffy that they "made the key flesh," and said that she was an innocent. Either way you cut it, I don't see a group of guys, no matter how much magic they have up their sleeves, creating a soul out of nothing. Just saying.
Sorry for the ramble :P
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Mar 08 2009 02:43 pm #29Spikez_tart
I can't agree. Willow, Dawn and Tara would have been okay with her dating Spike, sure, but both Giles and Xander would have continued to make her very uncomfortable. - If Buffy would admit that she loved Spike (as I believe she does in her own squirrelly litte way) she would tell them he's in my life, and if you don't like it, tough titty. Her true friends would accept what she wants and needs. She certainly told them off quick enough when she wanted Spike in the big RV ride in S5. Also, they're frequently a bunch of weaklings and they would have backed down. If they want to grumble that's their problem. It shows that Buffy is not adult enough to separate herself from these normal fantasies that she has (and that didn't work out with Riley as Scarlet pointed out) or to stand up for what she does want.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I think the whole point of this episode was for Buffy to really discover how far she's fallen -- and I think the biggest evidence of that is right in the beginning when a dead vampire doesn't want to fight her because she smells.
Exactly. I don't think we're supposed to sympathize with Buffy. I think we're supposed to feel uncomfortably bad for her throughout the episode, because we know how far she's fallen - we've been watching the whole time - but she's finally seeing it and realizing how bad it is. And then we're supposd to be proud of her decision to change that after seeing Riley.
I also don't think it's all about Spike here. Yes, one of the ways Buffy has fallen is by being in a very bad relationship with Spike (and it is, objectively, bad - nothing to do with telling her friends or not telling them - she's using him and he's letting her and one of them has to say, "This needs to stop." ) and so the first step she takes is to end that destructive relationship. But it's also about how she's fallen in working a crummy job - and other than "Normal Again," I don't think we ever see her at the DMP again. I don't think she actually quits until later on, but it's interesting that the episode where she realizes she needs to turn her life around is one of the last times we see this place. It's also about how she's fallen in not taking care of her sister, which came out in the previous episode, and how she's fallen in distancing herself from her friends, which will be dealt with in the coming episodes.
It's not about Riley convincing Buffy to break up with Spike. It's Riley's presence being a wake-up call to all of those things, holding up a mirror to herself to show her how far she's fallen from the person she was a year ago when he knew her. And whether you agree with Buffy's decisions following that realization or not, that's a good thing - she's been in a really bad place for far too long, and she needs to start coming out of it.
Exactly. I don't think we're supposed to sympathize with Buffy. I think we're supposed to feel uncomfortably bad for her throughout the episode, because we know how far she's fallen - we've been watching the whole time - but she's finally seeing it and realizing how bad it is. And then we're supposd to be proud of her decision to change that after seeing Riley.
I also don't think it's all about Spike here. Yes, one of the ways Buffy has fallen is by being in a very bad relationship with Spike (and it is, objectively, bad - nothing to do with telling her friends or not telling them - she's using him and he's letting her and one of them has to say, "This needs to stop." ) and so the first step she takes is to end that destructive relationship. But it's also about how she's fallen in working a crummy job - and other than "Normal Again," I don't think we ever see her at the DMP again. I don't think she actually quits until later on, but it's interesting that the episode where she realizes she needs to turn her life around is one of the last times we see this place. It's also about how she's fallen in not taking care of her sister, which came out in the previous episode, and how she's fallen in distancing herself from her friends, which will be dealt with in the coming episodes.
It's not about Riley convincing Buffy to break up with Spike. It's Riley's presence being a wake-up call to all of those things, holding up a mirror to herself to show her how far she's fallen from the person she was a year ago when he knew her. And whether you agree with Buffy's decisions following that realization or not, that's a good thing - she's been in a really bad place for far too long, and she needs to start coming out of it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 08 2009 05:36 pm #31Scarlet Ibis
Tart--love the "tough titty" ref, and you're spot on there.
My (main) issue (out of many) with “As You Were”--
Riley was meant to be the mirror for how crappy Buffy’s life has become since he last saw her. Riley is settled down in a relationship with a career that he loves where he gets to not only work with his significant other, he also does not smell like greasy fast food in his career choice. He's happy. This would be great, and I’d have no problems with it had “Dead Things” not preceded this episode, albeit not directly. After all, what would be a greater mirror of how far Buffy has spiraled out of control than Spike’s face in that alley? What more could say “something needs to change here—now cause I'm out of control” than that? Coupled with the fact that that scene and her actions are never really addressed by her, it makes AYW (and her lending a helping hand to Riley to knock Spike on his ass via a punch to the face) all that more disappointing. I could use another adjective, but I won’t. Riley’s visit could have just confirmed an epiphany she should have had weeks ago, as opposed to be the start of it. It lessens the character of Buffy (even further) that she didn’t. AYW is essentially saying that Riley is better, when who is better or more deserving of Buffy (which is debateable) is not the point. The point is Buffy's is supposed to change her ways, and I have an issue with Riley being the catalyst when there are other things that could have achieved that. Not even Spike--Dawn could have been that catalyst in OaFA. To make it revolve around Riley's re-entrance was extremely poor judgment.
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The point is Buffy's is supposed to change her ways, and I have an issue with Riley being the catalyst when there are other things that could have achieved that. Not even Spike--Dawn could have been that catalyst in OaFA. To make it revolve around Riley's re-entrance was extremely poor judgment.
Excellent post Scarlet Ibis - I could not agree with you more - there is not separation for me from "Dead Things" and "AYW" - there is, IMO, a direct link between these and also Buffy's emotional break down with Tara. While the reemergence of Riley in Sunnydale may be a mirror visual of where Buffy is in her life, the real life turmoil and economic problems that adults & people have to solve and deal with everyday - Riley-Sam Mr. & Mrs. Perfect Couple are, IMO, very a reflection of what is happening in her "inner life."
Riley-Sam Perfection of Couplehood are as both a fantasy and a symbol of how far Buffy has fallen, but it is in the alley scene in "Dead Things" that we see the true state of her degradation and illness of her soul. Spike has his own failure and weakness to overcome - But it is Buffy that is really the "sick soul" While we understand that in order for Buffy to crawl her way back into control of her life, both physical and emotional, she does have to face how badly she is living her life - The Question that I always am left with every time I see this episode is - Just How Much Understanding and Self-Awareness has she really come to. It seems to me that Buffy is still very much using Spike as a sublimation for her own life. Because the writers don't in anyway account for "Dead Things," we are left with a heroice character that is extremely damaged and for me this episode only adds to that damage.
Riley-Sam Perfect Couple are only one reflection of her inner turmoil and "inner demons" consciousness. The much more horrific and I think more important picture of Buffy's mental state and life, is reflected in her complete breakdown in the alley attack. For me, these two episodes cannot be seen other than connected and as two visions of the Mind of Buffy.
Why are Riley-Sam Perfect Couple treated as more like fantasy figures and such complete opposites of everything Buffy hates about her life and her relationship with Spike? What could be more superhero-warrior fantasy than ascending onto their next adventure in Nepal, the possible location of Shangri La, on that helicopter? I guess I am suppose to like or admire how Buffy finds her strength at the end of AYW, but I can't quite get over how much the writers made me feel real pity for her but more as a broken woman suffering from her self imposed barriers.
Excellent post Scarlet Ibis - I could not agree with you more - there is not separation for me from "Dead Things" and "AYW" - there is, IMO, a direct link between these and also Buffy's emotional break down with Tara. While the reemergence of Riley in Sunnydale may be a mirror visual of where Buffy is in her life, the real life turmoil and economic problems that adults & people have to solve and deal with everyday - Riley-Sam Mr. & Mrs. Perfect Couple are, IMO, very a reflection of what is happening in her "inner life."
Riley-Sam Perfection of Couplehood are as both a fantasy and a symbol of how far Buffy has fallen, but it is in the alley scene in "Dead Things" that we see the true state of her degradation and illness of her soul. Spike has his own failure and weakness to overcome - But it is Buffy that is really the "sick soul" While we understand that in order for Buffy to crawl her way back into control of her life, both physical and emotional, she does have to face how badly she is living her life - The Question that I always am left with every time I see this episode is - Just How Much Understanding and Self-Awareness has she really come to. It seems to me that Buffy is still very much using Spike as a sublimation for her own life. Because the writers don't in anyway account for "Dead Things," we are left with a heroice character that is extremely damaged and for me this episode only adds to that damage.
Riley-Sam Perfect Couple are only one reflection of her inner turmoil and "inner demons" consciousness. The much more horrific and I think more important picture of Buffy's mental state and life, is reflected in her complete breakdown in the alley attack. For me, these two episodes cannot be seen other than connected and as two visions of the Mind of Buffy.
Why are Riley-Sam Perfect Couple treated as more like fantasy figures and such complete opposites of everything Buffy hates about her life and her relationship with Spike? What could be more superhero-warrior fantasy than ascending onto their next adventure in Nepal, the possible location of Shangri La, on that helicopter? I guess I am suppose to like or admire how Buffy finds her strength at the end of AYW, but I can't quite get over how much the writers made me feel real pity for her but more as a broken woman suffering from her self imposed barriers.
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Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 09 2009 06:04 am #33Shell Presto
Sorry for the ramble :P
No apologies, I loved the ramble. You made a lot of good points, especially Dawn never having a confirmed soul. -- I'd never, ever thought of that.
And I forgot about Xander's reaction in intervention. That changes things a bit.
The Question that I always am left with every time I see this episode is - Just How Much Understanding and Self-Awareness has she really come to.
I think Buffy's decision to break it off with Spike is not so much a great decision as it is symbolic -- and easy. If Buffy made a whole bunch of wonderful decisions, really hunkered down and got her life together all in one episode, that would be both boring and unrealistic. It's like when you get a great idea or some inspiration, you want to do something about it right now.
Buffy can't quit her job or get back into college. She can't snag a perfect relationship or make herself feel better about not being in heaven or emotionally cut off. She can't instantly prove to Dawn and her friends that she cares. But she can immediately end her relationship with Spike that's been bugging her, so that's what she does, immediately. (Which is funny, because in a way, it's a step backwards, because she's further cutting herself off from people emotionally. The breakup would have had a deeper emotional meaning if she could have admitted it to her friends and talked about it, but she never did until Spike pointed out that they were sleeping together.)
As for how much she's learned about herself, nothing, really. She always knew what she wanted, it's the same things she wanted from season 1, to be normal, to protect her friends, etc. She's just trying to take a step in the right direction based on the fact that Riley has (not to mention that all her other friends have as well -- they never stopped living, only she did).
No apologies, I loved the ramble. You made a lot of good points, especially Dawn never having a confirmed soul. -- I'd never, ever thought of that.
And I forgot about Xander's reaction in intervention. That changes things a bit.
The Question that I always am left with every time I see this episode is - Just How Much Understanding and Self-Awareness has she really come to.
I think Buffy's decision to break it off with Spike is not so much a great decision as it is symbolic -- and easy. If Buffy made a whole bunch of wonderful decisions, really hunkered down and got her life together all in one episode, that would be both boring and unrealistic. It's like when you get a great idea or some inspiration, you want to do something about it right now.
Buffy can't quit her job or get back into college. She can't snag a perfect relationship or make herself feel better about not being in heaven or emotionally cut off. She can't instantly prove to Dawn and her friends that she cares. But she can immediately end her relationship with Spike that's been bugging her, so that's what she does, immediately. (Which is funny, because in a way, it's a step backwards, because she's further cutting herself off from people emotionally. The breakup would have had a deeper emotional meaning if she could have admitted it to her friends and talked about it, but she never did until Spike pointed out that they were sleeping together.)
As for how much she's learned about herself, nothing, really. She always knew what she wanted, it's the same things she wanted from season 1, to be normal, to protect her friends, etc. She's just trying to take a step in the right direction based on the fact that Riley has (not to mention that all her other friends have as well -- they never stopped living, only she did).
As for how much she's learned about herself, nothing, really. She always knew what she wanted, it's the same things she wanted from season 1, to be normal, to protect her friends, etc. She's just trying to take a step in the right direction based on the fact that Riley has (not to mention that all her other friends have as well -- they never stopped living, only she did).
All excellent observations on Buffy's behavior in this episode - unfortunately for me, I find it difficult to have any confidence in the simple resolution of A step forward on the journey back to Buffy's taking control of her life post Riley-Sam if all this had not been preceded by her emotional melt-down with Tara. Granted, this is a move on the character's part to get more control of her life - but it is as you stated "easy" - Spike is her "doctor and drug of choice" her temporary fix but, either my design or not careful attention to the Buffy-Tara scene, the powerful emotional trauma of the previous episode, IMO, calls for some resolution. Buffy's conduct and how she deals with her emotional state in "AYW" does not, IMO, bring a satisfactory resolution to the Buffy-Spike arc or the Buffy Emotional Trauma. All that precedes "AYW" is so powerful - it's much more emotionally powerful and traumatic than Buffy's exit out of Spike's crypt/home suggests.
What do you think of the treatment of Buffy's initial reaction to having Riley back? Riley has moved on, and he is a symbol, but do you think that symbolism is intended to reflect where Buffy needs to move forward to, or does it also also suggest that she may still be suffering from her former delusions of a Slayer being able to have a "normal" life? Is Buffy feeling love for Riley or does she see a fantasy world that she is locked out of? Spike is clearly an escape from the nightmare that Riley-Sam Perfect Couple bring forth and that is one of the primary reason that Riley-Sam seem more like dreamscape symbols to me.
From "Dead Things"
BUFFY: I didn't come back wrong?
TARA: No, you're the same Buffy. With a deep tropical cellular tan.
BUFFY: You must have missed something. Will you check again?
TARA: (concerned) Buffy, I-I promise, there's nothing wrong with you.
BUFFY: There has to be! This just can't be me, it isn't me. (starting to cry) Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?
TARA: You mean hit you? (gets it) Oh. Oh, huh. Really.
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ... Don't tell anyone, please.
TARA: I won't.
BUFFY: (crying) The way they would look at me ... I just couldn't...
TARA: I won't tell anyone. I wouldn't do that.
BUFFY: (whispers) Why can't I stop? Why do I keep letting him in?
TARA: Do you love him? I-It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you. A-and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
BUFFY: What? Using him? What's okay about that?
TARA: It's not that simple.
BUFFY: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong. Tell me that I'm wrong, please... Please don't forgive me, please... (sobbing) Please don't... Please don't forgive me...
I love this episode for all the multi-layered symbolism and for the application of mythic components but I don't think the writer's did much advance a particularly good image of Buffy or her journey of self-awareness. The same can be applied to Xander-Anya, but especially Xander's attempt to escape and ignore his deep rooted fears about his marriage.
All excellent observations on Buffy's behavior in this episode - unfortunately for me, I find it difficult to have any confidence in the simple resolution of A step forward on the journey back to Buffy's taking control of her life post Riley-Sam if all this had not been preceded by her emotional melt-down with Tara. Granted, this is a move on the character's part to get more control of her life - but it is as you stated "easy" - Spike is her "doctor and drug of choice" her temporary fix but, either my design or not careful attention to the Buffy-Tara scene, the powerful emotional trauma of the previous episode, IMO, calls for some resolution. Buffy's conduct and how she deals with her emotional state in "AYW" does not, IMO, bring a satisfactory resolution to the Buffy-Spike arc or the Buffy Emotional Trauma. All that precedes "AYW" is so powerful - it's much more emotionally powerful and traumatic than Buffy's exit out of Spike's crypt/home suggests.
What do you think of the treatment of Buffy's initial reaction to having Riley back? Riley has moved on, and he is a symbol, but do you think that symbolism is intended to reflect where Buffy needs to move forward to, or does it also also suggest that she may still be suffering from her former delusions of a Slayer being able to have a "normal" life? Is Buffy feeling love for Riley or does she see a fantasy world that she is locked out of? Spike is clearly an escape from the nightmare that Riley-Sam Perfect Couple bring forth and that is one of the primary reason that Riley-Sam seem more like dreamscape symbols to me.
From "Dead Things"
BUFFY: I didn't come back wrong?
TARA: No, you're the same Buffy. With a deep tropical cellular tan.
BUFFY: You must have missed something. Will you check again?
TARA: (concerned) Buffy, I-I promise, there's nothing wrong with you.
BUFFY: There has to be! This just can't be me, it isn't me. (starting to cry) Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?
TARA: You mean hit you? (gets it) Oh. Oh, huh. Really.
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ... Don't tell anyone, please.
TARA: I won't.
BUFFY: (crying) The way they would look at me ... I just couldn't...
TARA: I won't tell anyone. I wouldn't do that.
BUFFY: (whispers) Why can't I stop? Why do I keep letting him in?
TARA: Do you love him? I-It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you. A-and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
BUFFY: What? Using him? What's okay about that?
TARA: It's not that simple.
BUFFY: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong. Tell me that I'm wrong, please... Please don't forgive me, please... (sobbing) Please don't... Please don't forgive me...
I love this episode for all the multi-layered symbolism and for the application of mythic components but I don't think the writer's did much advance a particularly good image of Buffy or her journey of self-awareness. The same can be applied to Xander-Anya, but especially Xander's attempt to escape and ignore his deep rooted fears about his marriage.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 10 2009 08:32 am #35Scarlet Ibis
Buffy's conduct and how she deals with her emotional state in "AYW" does not, IMO, bring a satisfactory resolution to the Buffy-Spike arc or the Buffy Emotional Trauma. All that precedes "AYW" is so powerful - it's much more emotionally powerful and traumatic than Buffy's exit out of Spike's crypt/home suggests.
Agree.
What do you think of the treatment of Buffy's initial reaction to having Riley back?
I found it deplorable. She was acting like a bitch in heat. Had Riley not been married and still interested? She would have just dived right into that. She was in awe of him. IF that'd been me, and the relationship ended on the same sad, sorry, sour note, I would not have been looking up at him in awe, (particularly if I were involved with someone else--especially if it was someone who was showing me right) and just walk away with him with no hesitation like a lost puppy wherever he wanted me to go.
It was extremely out of character, to say the least. Now, had that been Angel? Okay, I could see/understand that one.
I find it interesting/weird/a bit creepy that Riley is able to wield some sort of power over Buffy here, whereas Spike cannot. I'm trying to figure out when he became "Mr. Perfect." And this isn't me trying to unjustly villainize him--things were not good/okay/satisfactory in the least the last time we saw him, but suddenly Buffy's fawning all over him? It was disconcerting, and just plain wrong on so many levels.
Okay, there's just a general bad taste in my mouth...
ETA: I could see how Riley's revealed happily married status could have some sort of effect on Buffy (though I still think this pales in comparison to all that came before to stoke her "great change" or whatever). But before that? When he first shows up? What the hell was that? When they were together, the last few months they were together, Riley did not represent strength, a provider, a confidante, or normalcy in the end. So that initial reaction, like he was some sort of war soldier who finally came home? Like he was salvation or something? Someone mind explaining that to me? How this left field randomness can possibly make an iota of sense? Not that my brain will see any logic in it whatsoever, but I'm willing to see if someone can take a stab at it.
Agree.
What do you think of the treatment of Buffy's initial reaction to having Riley back?
I found it deplorable. She was acting like a bitch in heat. Had Riley not been married and still interested? She would have just dived right into that. She was in awe of him. IF that'd been me, and the relationship ended on the same sad, sorry, sour note, I would not have been looking up at him in awe, (particularly if I were involved with someone else--especially if it was someone who was showing me right) and just walk away with him with no hesitation like a lost puppy wherever he wanted me to go.
It was extremely out of character, to say the least. Now, had that been Angel? Okay, I could see/understand that one.
I find it interesting/weird/a bit creepy that Riley is able to wield some sort of power over Buffy here, whereas Spike cannot. I'm trying to figure out when he became "Mr. Perfect." And this isn't me trying to unjustly villainize him--things were not good/okay/satisfactory in the least the last time we saw him, but suddenly Buffy's fawning all over him? It was disconcerting, and just plain wrong on so many levels.
Okay, there's just a general bad taste in my mouth...
ETA: I could see how Riley's revealed happily married status could have some sort of effect on Buffy (though I still think this pales in comparison to all that came before to stoke her "great change" or whatever). But before that? When he first shows up? What the hell was that? When they were together, the last few months they were together, Riley did not represent strength, a provider, a confidante, or normalcy in the end. So that initial reaction, like he was some sort of war soldier who finally came home? Like he was salvation or something? Someone mind explaining that to me? How this left field randomness can possibly make an iota of sense? Not that my brain will see any logic in it whatsoever, but I'm willing to see if someone can take a stab at it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Scarlet Ibis -
You have put into words just about everything that I felt about this episode regarding the Buffy - Riley treatment. I think this must be probably the only time in the entire series that what I feel is "pity" for her. I've felt deep sympathy and compassion for Buffy, I have felt anger, love, respect, admiration, disappointment and pride - but I think remember ever feeling pity for her, because she has never been presented as a "woman weakened and made into an abject reflection of need for a man." Your "lost puppy" is a perfect analogy - reminded me of Spike's lines to her in "Smashed" about being a lost little girl - Just one more reason on my list of why I see this episode as a continuation of the "dreamscapes" sequences. While it does work on the level of "catalyst" for change, there is much that speaks to Buffy's mental and emotional breakdown as well. This is, from my perspective, a continuation of the themes presented in "Smashed." Buffy is desperate for Riley but not only because he can still be Mr. Joe Normal but because if she can still have Riley than she can see herself as not "having come back wrong."
From "Smashed"
BUFFY: (alarmed) How?
SPIKE: Don't you get it? Don't you see? (sneering) You came back wrong.
(she punches him a few times, he responds in kind)
BUFFY: It's a trick. You did something to the chip, it's a trick.
SPIKE: It's no trick. It's not me, it's you. Just you, in fact, that's the funny part. (punches her in the face) 'Cause you're the one that's changed. (punches again) That's why this doesn't hurt me. (grins) Came back a little less human than you were.
BUFFY: You're wrong. (sends him flying)
SPIKE: Then how come you're so spooked, luv? And why can I - (punches her) do that?
BUFFY: You're wrong.
(attacks him, they crash into a building; they continue to fight as they speak the following)
SPIKE: (grinning) Oh, poor little lost girl. She doesn't fit in anywhere. She's got no one to love.
BUFFY: Me? I'm lost? Look at you, you idiot! Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in? Your job is to kill the slayer. But all you can do is follow me around making moon eyes.
SPIKE: I'm in love with you.
BUFFY: You're in love with pain. Admit it. You like me ... because you enjoy getting beat down. So really, who's screwed up?
SPIKE: Hello! Vampire! I'm supposed to be treading on the dark side. What's your excuseThe problem that I have with the Buffy's Exit Into the Light away from Buffy-Spike relationship is that I am still left with the very unsatisfactory idea that she was forced into a change from outside force, Mr. & Mrs. Perfect Couple - we never see Buffy's exploration of her own very strong and deep darkness in the tragic Buffy-Spike relationship. Buffy went after Spike just as much as Spike went after her and from a very bad choice - the objectification of Spike as "a thing" to be used for her escape from pain. Perhaps it is even more her responsibility because she knew how much Spike was willing to become her "willing slave" and how very much he does love her. It's a hard call to make - both were living in a very dark and dangerous existence, but it is Buffy who has possession of her all important "Soul" - the line of demarcation from which Spike can never be allowed to pass.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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