BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Buffy... woman empowerment... WHAT!?

Apr 29 2009 10:08 pm   #1Guest
It was mentioned in another thread that Buffy was supposed to be all about women empowerment...

... that's news to me.

I just watch the show, not the reunions, interviews and such so I'm not influenced by what the writers claim to be the themes of the show. I go by what's playing on the TV and then I make my own conclusions, I don't base my opinions on commentaries of what the other people think I should be getting out of the show.
When I think about women empowerment I think about the struggle for equal rights and women standing up and telling the world that they are going to live their lives doing what they want and to hell with anyone who thinks that women need to go back to the kitchen.

Buffy on the other hand, she has supernatural powers that make her the physically strongest person on the show... that's about it on the whole empowerment angle that I saw. Well, maybe in season 8 when she was defending Spike against Giles and everyone. If she'd simply told them off saying that it was her house and that he was staying because she wanted him there, then I'd be willing to count it, but that didn't happen. Instead she wrote it off as her simply needing another fighter and that now that spike had that oh-so-important soul he "could be a good man."

What really killed the whole "empowerment" idea to me was how Buffy never stood up to her friends. Sure she could face down demons, vampires, and other baddies without flinching but pit her against her friends and what they think she should do and Buffy the Vampire Slayer becomes Buffy the Doormat, a coward who makes decisions based not on what she wants, but what she believes her friends and family want her to do.

Plus Buffy spent the ENTIRE FREAKIN SERIES bitchin and moaning about her being a Slayer: I wanted to reach into my TV and yell at her: "Grow up and get over it already!" Life isn't fair and never will be and whining about how you're your life is so unfair isn't going to change anything so accept it and move on. That there was a mark of maturity that Buffy never received. The fact that she turned around and forced thousands of other unsuspecting girls into becoming Slayers just like her seemed more like a form of rape to me than "empowerment." Plus, and this is just MHO, I saw it as Buffy making thousands of innocent human shields so she could finally her coveted "normal life" while all those other girls fight and die for a cause she forced upon them without their knowledge or consent. It was bad enough when those tribal guys did it to the first Slayer, but Buffy knew firsthand what she would was doing to those girls but she did it anyway and had the utter gall to act like she was "gifting" them with this wonderful power.

Anyway, that's my opinion of this issue. What do you all think?

Ally
Apr 30 2009 02:55 am   #2Scarlet Ibis
You make all valid points (cept you mean season seven, and not eight ;) ), and I don't disagree with any of them.

I suppose it was "empowerment" in the sense that the "blondie" wasn't running screaming in the night down a dark alley, tripping, falling, and breaking her ankle so that the villain could swoop in and off her; she's capable of fighting back, and would more than likely win.

However, I'm sure there will be someone to comment soon about the rich metaphor and how it totally was about empowerment, etc.  But that person won't be me.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 30 2009 06:51 am   #3nmcil

The empowerment of women with the Buffy model was not discussed much at our Buffy Board. I have to agree that as much as the Joss Whedon and Buffy has been referenced and connected to the empowerment of women, it did not make that connection for me. The series felt more like young people and rites of passage; learning how to live, not just within an adult world, but even just how to get through life and manage to create some small portion of joy and love and ability to live in harmony with other people.

I think I understand what Joss Whedon was trying to get to with the "are you ready to be strong?" - I love that line because it speaks directly to real people, not the Buffy Realm - it's a call to action, to take control of your own life. Now the great irony is that the resolution to win against the enemy, what General Buffy does, is directly contradict in theory the very point of "being in control via Free Will. Are you ready to be strong is the central issue each and every day for women - 'cause mainly the world run by men does not want its women strong or true equal counterparts. Sure a minute number of people want to embrace that all-important ideal of Justice and Equality but the vast majority does not. And The Buffyverse played and trashed this theme of equal justice and equal treatment over and over and over even while its creator in real life took up that cause and ideal. Unfortunately for many viewers what plays out on screen, many times goes against this ideal of empowerment and equality.

One quick example, I bring this one up simply because I watched again the episodes directly preceding Seeing Red and the attempted rape scene for the other thread discussions. The treatment of the "sacred characters" vs. the "demon outsiders" is how Buffy and Willow very quickly take Xander, who trashed his woman counterpart completely, when he returns after that disastrous almost marriage. We understand that it was all about immature male with deep issues about his family life and fears and insecurities that develop from that circumstance. But Xander has practically no consequences from his actions, while the Anya is sent directly back to her evil vengeance role model. Why did that wonderful, intelligent, capable woman have that treatment? Why did she have to lose all her new identity of Anya just because some cowardly male ripped out her heart. And btw, not only does the male ripped out her heart and trash her emotions, but then the writers have the total lack of respect for what she suffered but almost immediately have her do the same exact thing at that frat house .
This going backward for Anya, IMO, shows a lack of respect and sensitivity for the female character and all her efforts to take control of her human life. She totally falls apart from being rejected by Xander and becomes a heartless, amoral anger filled woman while the male is back in the loving arms of his women friends. It’s not just the empowerment of women that had a skewed treatment. There was such an unbalanced treatment between what I call "the sacred characters," Buffy and her inner circle vs. the "outsiders" – demons trying to live and transform themselves to function by the human rules and culture. Double Standards Plus. In "Normal Again" the first person that is call upon to help save Buffy is the "outsider" Spike shown with the "sacred character" Xander. Yet, for all his part in the saving of Buffy’s life – it is the "outsider" that is thrown aside as the enemy and worthless.

Buffy, set and totally embraced the very model that contradicts empowerment and equal treatment: Different Rules – Different Justice – Different Standards.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 30 2009 08:57 am   #4Shell Presto
I feel like we're missing some characters and examples here.

Willow, I think, is an incredibly strong character, not just magically. She always manages to pull together, be it a plan for the scoobies, as guardian of Dawn, or - whenever given the opportunity - defending her friends. She falls into addiction, rises above it, falls into evil, rises above that. There's very little about Willow that isn't strong.

I also think Dawn is a great female role model. For having no powers whatsoever, she can stand on her own, defend herself or a friend when need be, and is extremely outspoken and observant. Joyce also shows a fair number of the same qualities.

I personally like the contradiction of Buffy being the strongest character on the show physically but weaker emotionally. I do think she should have spoken up about her feelings for Spike, and in a way that ruined her character on a number of levels, but I think it spoke volumes to the amount of peer pressure that girls feel -- and often invented peer pressure at that. I also found it interesting that she'd defend Angel over and over as a teen, but as a grown woman, she wouldn't defend Spike. It very much so seemed like a metaphor for 'the older you get, the more confusing things get.'

I think the Xander Anya argument is more complex. Yes, in the end, Anya walks away with the punishment, but she's still physically and emotionally stronger than Xander. She overcomes her own bitterness and overlooks her hatred of Xander to help the team out despite taking up with the black hats again, and in the end she goes down fighting. Maybe my outlook is too optimistic, but there's hardly a character on Buffy who doesn't get a bum deal, and I think how characters handle it is the best testament to their strength of character.

Likewise, I find it funny that Spike is both physically and emotionally stronger than Xander. In the talk of "sacred character" vs. "outsider", I actually think that Spike's status as an outsider is part of what makes him stronger. He knows how to take care of himself, but also knows the value of belonging, which is what he strives for. Xander is weaker because he takes his status as a sacred character for granted -- he feels he'll always have Buffy and Willow, which is great, i'm all for friendship -- but he's so narrowminded in his affection that he can't see the world past those relationships. Xander - a male - is probably the weakest character on the show.

So I do feel that Buffy is about female empowerment, just not with the main character, ironically.
Apr 30 2009 09:27 am   #5nmcil
Xander - a male - is probably the weakest character on the show.

Totally agree with you - of all the prime characters, Xander was the character that I liked the least - he was just too narrowed minded and oftentimes "self-righteous" - Nicolas Brendon did a great job of playing the character.  What I did like very much about the character was all the great lines they gave him.   

" He knows how to take care of himself, but also knows the value of belonging," well said

I still can't understand why the writers would be so extreme with Buffy - sometimes you just thought she was the world biggest self-centered childish bitch - other times she was so ready to give her life up as The Slayer to protect people.  Unfortunately, the writers pushed her anger and disgust with Spike to such extremes that her character suffered by it.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 30 2009 09:46 am   #6Guest
i don't have time to read all the responses, but i think that ally really nailed it on the head for me. i always am thinking things like that, but can never find the way to say them and you did. thank you.
legen
Apr 30 2009 02:19 pm   #7Guest

sometimes you just thought she was the world biggest self-center childish bitch - other times she was so ready to give her life up as The Slayer to protect people.
imo, i don't think she was sacrificing herself so much as running away most of the time. as spike said, "slayers have a death wish." and...
Plus Buffy spent the ENTIRE FREAKIN SERIES bitchin’ and moaning about her being a Slayer: I wanted to reach into my TV and yell at her: "Grow up and get over it already!" Life isn't fair and never will be and whining about how you're your life is so unfair isn't going to change anything so accept it and move on. That there was a mark of maturity that Buffy never received.
i could never find it in myself to respect her when all she did was bitch about being the slayer, but then also take on this high and mighty act cause she was the slayer. when, as spike showed her and us in season 6, she's just as bad as the next guy, if not worse because she doesn't think what she did was bad, nor did she ever have to face ANY consequences for ANY of her actions. i'm with nmcil on the show being about coming of age more than empowerment.

Apr 30 2009 05:17 pm   #8sosa lola
I remember someone, don't remember who, who had this theory about Xander being a metaphor for a woman who struggles to prove herself in a team full of strong, capable men. All the characters are given powers from a greater force just like men who got physical strength from God, which means that Xander/woman has to work twice harder to be as brave and useful as the already superpowered teammates. So, perhaps, Xander is the female empowerment of the show. A mere human with no superpower gifts or years of experience who saved the world by himself and help his stronger friends save the world.

I would've liked it if Buffy, our icon, had no superpowers and was able to save the day. But I guess she can be my idol by how much crap she can take and still fight for humanity.
Apr 30 2009 07:52 pm   #9Eowyn315
I remember someone, don't remember who, who had this theory about Xander being a metaphor for a woman who struggles to prove herself in a team full of strong, capable men.
That might've been me? I said something like that once on my LJ.

As for the female empowerment thing, I think there are certainly elements of it in the series, starting with the idea of flipping our expectations about the tiny blonde who always gets killed first in horror movies. I don't, however, think it's supposed to be the central metaphor for the entire show, nor do I think Joss intended it to be a "feminist" show. It can be viewed that way, sure, but it's not the only possible view.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 01 2009 04:09 am   #10nmcil
I'm pretty sure that Joss Whedon was thinking "empowerment" in "Chosen"  with The Potentials - even the name given to the possible Slayers in all about  what can be - certainly Buffy getting the scythe, not from a high mucky muck male Watcher, but from an ancient Guardian Woman Figure is part of the statement.  But like I stated before, the problem was the obvious ironic contradiction.  Joss Whedon has already presented the rogue Slayer and the huge potential (such a  nice word to have used) for woman with all this power to be a destructive force instead of being a positive force in the world.  It would have been simple to at least bring in the theme of the intrusion on another person's by the battle plan  and magical transformation from the scythe.  The Potentials at Sunnydale were fully informed about what was going to happen, but  not anyone else that was going to be effected. 

The the distance of several years away from my  weekly Buffyverse Passion - I have a lot more issue with the character treatments - I find myself a lot more critical of the Buffy Hero/Heroine role model and the shifting and use of characters without background stories to support their use for plot advancement or change.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 01 2009 04:28 am   #11Eowyn315
It would have been simple to at least bring in the theme of the intrusion on another person's by the battle plan and magical transformation from the scythe.
And Joss has done that, by showing us Slayers who didn't want to be chosen, and he's illustrated the consequences of the spell by giving us Dana in Angel season 5 and Simone and the other rogue Slayers in the season 8 comics. I don't think he missed the irony there, since he's clearly addressing it in continuations of the story, but you also have to remember that Joss has a very particular way of storytelling. He's way more interested in the big picture metaphor and whether it feels right emotionally than he is in the details and the logic, and that part of the spell simply didn't fit into the story he wanted to tell in "Chosen." (And, to be fair, it's not like we really had time to get into the consequences of the spell. They did the spell, and the show ended.)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 01 2009 04:29 am   #12Scarlet Ibis
I'm pretty sure that Joss Whedon was thinking "empowerment" in "Chosen" with The Potentials - even the name given to the possible Slayers in all about what what can be - certainly Buffy getting the scythe, not from a high mucky muck male Watcher, but from an ancient Guardian Woman Figure is part of the statement.
Actually...hmm.

Buffy only got the scythe from Spike's encouragement.  Not that the scythe had anything to do with the big win of the Hellmouth (just the activation of the potentials, who for the most part, didn't choose).  Spike chose to get his soul, to wear the volatile amulet, to be the champion, was Buffy's choice for champion (not that I really care about that--that isn't why Spike is a champion to me), chose to be the vessel of light for closing the Hellmouth instead of taking the necklace off, and essentially chose to die.  Spike was the chosen hero of the piece.  Being picked at random verses making a choice for yourself...

Yes--I am one of "those" people who has all kinds of nitpicks about that final ep :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 01 2009 08:27 am   #13nmcil
He's way more interested in the big picture metaphor and whether it feels right emotionally than he is in the details and the logic, and that part of the spell simply didn't fit into the story he wanted to tell in "Chosen." (And, to be fair, it's not like we really had time to get into the consequences of the spell.

I totally agree with you, Joss goes for the Big Whole Picture - that is what is important to him and how he works -

I only meant that a very brief scene between Buffy, Giles and Willow could have introduced the subject and acknowledged their concern but emphasised their choice based on extreme dire needs for their survival.  No one knew that it would only take Spike and the amulet to destroy the Uber Vamps - plus The Slayers gave the needed time for the magic from the amulet to begin working with Spike to begin.

Like I stated before - I LOVE that line and call for the Potentials to become powerful young women and I LOVED the montage they used in that scene - it's the intellectual theory and consequences from imposing those changes on people without consent that become a problem.  I was not speaking of events that happen in the comic season where  this is taken up again. 

"Buffy only got the scythe from Spike's encouragement"

Yes - once again, the worthless disgusting vamp is one of the prime movers, just like in "Normal Again" where Spike is the counterpart of the Joyce only in the Mirror World contrast formula - Spike takes on the role of guide and  demands that she let herself live just as he is the first one that Buffy's friends call on to help save her life.  Boy did I dislike Xander in "Normal Again" - after being such pig-headed jerk in the cemetery doing the we her friends and will take care of her - it's Spike that is vital in the fighting and gives Buffy some hard ugly facts that she has to see and deal with.  But I digress and don't want to change the  subject of the thread.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 01 2009 02:24 pm   #14Guest
Like I stated before - I LOVE that line and call for the Potentials to become powerful young women and I LOVED the montage they used in that scene - it's the intellectual theory and consequences from imposing those changes on people without consent that become a problem. I was not speaking of events that happen in the comic season where this is taken up again.

Hate to sound old school but actions speak far louder than some prepared speech. Maybe it's because I caught on to what she was going to do mid-speech and can't believe Buffy's deluded enough to actually believe what she was saying, not after all the hell she's been through because someone else suddenly decided that SHE should become a slayer.

I was astounded at the hipocracy of the entire thing: what the tribe guys did to create the first Slayer was a kind of rape but when BUFFY does it, it's this uplifting montage of female empowerment!!!???  


May 01 2009 04:55 pm   #15nmcil
I was astounded at the hipocracy of the entire thing: what the tribe guys did to create the first Slayer was a kind of rape but when BUFFY does it, it's this uplifting montage of female empowerment!!!???

You make a great point, it was totally hypocritical when we take in the origins of The Slayer and what was done to Buffy - but like so many things in the series Plot Devices and Plot Changes were used to make, let's call it "point of the moment and need."   I do believe that Joss Whedon was making a statement about woman and how they can choose to take control of their lives.  But the trouble comes in when the history of a recent episode takes a  contradictory position - Buffy's complete rejection and anger over having her life imposed on and controlled by those other people.  However, part of the "ready to be strong" includes Buffy's tirade again her life as The Slayer - and I think that the question that she poses to The Potentials can be directly reflected back onto Buffy/Heroine/Woman - Is Buffy finally ready to cross all her own road blocks and take full control of her life as well.   As viewers, we know there are important issues regarding this transference of magical power without consent but at this juncture in his series, IMVHO, he is speaking to women in the real world and the power of the scythe is the metaphor for taking that power into your own hands.  As metaphor and point of the moment, It worked for me but I do acknowledge the multiplicity of issues that come with the how they used the power transference.


BUFFY: I hate this. I hate being here. I hate that you have to be here. I hate that there?s evil and that I was chosen to fight it. I wish a whole lot of the time that I hadn?t been. I know a lot of you wish I hadn?t been, either. But this isn?t about wishes. This is about choices. I believe we can beat this evil. Not when it comes. Not when its army is ready. Now. Tomorrow morning I?m opening the Seal. I?m going down into the Hellmouth and I?m finishing this once and for all. Right now you?re asking yourselves what makes this different. ?What makes us anything more than a bunch of girls being picked off one by one?? It?s true, none of you have the power that Faith and I do. So here?s the part where you make a choice.


BUFFY: So here?s the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that power? now? In every generation one Slayer is born because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule. They were powerful men. (She points at Willow, who smiles nervously.) This woman is more powerful than all of them combined. So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power. Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny. From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up. Slayers? every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 01 2009 07:05 pm   #16Guest
"From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power." - This is the part where Joss messed up.

It would have worked wonderfully if the spell worked on the Potentials that were THERE, that were choosing to not be helpless little girls facing a much more powerful enemy. Those girls were fully informed, had felt the fear, knew exactly what this destiny meant. Would have been a great triumphant moment to have them become Slayers and win. They'd earned the choice.

Instead, we get the whole wonderful moment screwed up by all these girls getting infected with demon power they know nothing about, and Spike saves the day with a mysterious amulet owned by Evil, Inc. Anyone who was an AtS fan at the same time went "Oh, crap!" at that thing coming from Wolfram and Hart (a place where women don't get ahead unless they're demons or as conniving and bitch-powered as Lilah, btw.) I love Spike's sacrifice and I wouldn't take anything away from that, but that episode sure wasn't about Buffy going out as a great Hero. Also, you notice that when Buffy got stabbed and went down, all the girls started losing all of a sudden?? And as soon as she stood up, whoosh, everybody's winning again. Something got messed up with that power transfer.

Thank God at least Fred got to be the normal human woman who used her BRAIN to save the day on AtS. (And Cordy had a few years of just being human powered, too, before the visions were killing her.) 

CM
May 01 2009 09:33 pm   #17nmcil
For Me - Chosen was all about Spike and his great transformation - that is the story that I found the most compelling and powerful - how this character became such a awesome integration of all his attribute.  Buffy and Spike give each other the strength they need to keep going on their Heroes Path - but at the end of everything - I find that what kept me completely engaged in the series was Spike and his journey. 

I love Spuffy and I so wish that this couple had been treated very differently in the series - I wish that the writers had used the relationship in a positive light - but as a metaphor, Season Six is a disturbing, but for me, effective as The Destroyer that makes a new place and path for The Transformation and Resurrection. 

The thing with the magic transformation and the issue of informed consent - Joss Whedon was speaking to an audience that had been with the series for several years - I think that he just made the decision to use the series ending to make a personal statement to his viewers.   Most we were familiar with his starting point - a female character that would be a warrior and not just another screaming victim.  Plus I think most viewers knew that he does support women having equal rights as men and that not only women, but all people can find their inner strengths and use them to help make our cultures and world a better place for all humans.

Another important thing is that in a structures of the mythic Heroes Journey - part of the cycle is that The Hero/Heroine brings back the boon to the community that the Hero/Heroine represents.  The Scythe and the power transformation plays the ending role of the Mythic Hero Journey - Buffy brings back the boon and gives it to her people. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 02 2009 12:08 am   #18Spikez_tart
The Great Oz has heard your whining and behold! - a recent S8 comic book  "Safe" (Giles and Faith on the cover) deals with this very problem.  Some of the Slayers aren't at all happy and they run to the Slayer Sanctuary.  I won't be a Spoiler Beast and tell more.  It's one of the best S8 comics so far with excellent art and a pretty good story. 

Okay - so you're a cute little teenaged girl (did the Slayness only get bestowed on teenaged girls?  What about old broads like me?) and you get zapped with some kung fu and muscle power.  So what?  You use it if you want and don't if you don't.  If Giles shows up to recruit you, you tell him to blow it out his a**.  You're tough now right, so you can't be cowed by a ponce like him.  You might not even know about the slayer strength till your mom asks you to help her move the sofa.  Yes, I agree that it was a wanky thing to do to a bunch of girls that Buffy et al didn't even know, but still not seeing the agony.

Buffy brings back the boon - it's sometimes the case in the Campbell Hero plots that when the hero brings back the boon, the community doesn't want it. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 02 2009 12:50 am   #19nmcil
Buffy brings back the boon - it's sometimes the case in the Campbell Hero plots that when the hero brings back the boon, the community doesn't want it.

Most definitely -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 02 2009 12:56 am   #20Guest
I won't be a Spoiler Beast and tell more. It's one of the best S8 comics so far with excellent art and a pretty good story.

Okay, for those of us who aren't going to go out and buy the comics, is there a good site to go to at least find good synopses of them?
May 02 2009 02:08 am   #21Guest
The agony? How about Dana? A horribly traumatized girl was Called, in an asylum, and had nightmares of the Slayers that came before her and all the horrors they faced. She's now a murderer. (and cut off Spike's hands)

The problem is that the power is not selective. The worst of us can be Called along with the best of us. The nightmares? Feeling like a freak? Coming from a more primitive culture where they now think you're possessed and exorcise you? Becoming a demon magnet?
Buffy railed against not being normal for SEVEN YEARS. Then she takes normal away from hundreds or thousands of innocent little girls. And the youngest was only TEN!!!

CM
May 02 2009 02:33 am   #22Scarlet Ibis
Buffy railed against not being normal for SEVEN YEARS. Then she takes normal away from hundreds or thousands of innocent little girls. And the youngest was only TEN!!!
Yeah, forcing that power into unsuspecting girls, after knowing how it feels...that was wicked messed up.  There has to be a story about what happened to all of the actual children who were activated--playing on the playground with other children or siblings (god forbid younger ones, but it's doubtful that wouldn't be the case somewhere), running around accidentally killing a love one or breaking ribs from a massive hug...It's sad.

You forgot one other thing about Cordelia--she willing chose to become part demon for the greater good.  She didn't pass that buck onto Angel or someone else, and decided to carry that burden herself.  That was pretty heroic in and of itself.

Agree that "Chosen" really wasn't about Buffy being the hero.   At all.  Spike saved the day with the aide of Angel's Avengers.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 02 2009 01:35 pm   #23Guest
hey I agree with all of you I have 2 daughtersand 2 sons I hopeI have taught both sexes to get along with each other.But I think the buffy has really hurt our sex mainly because if one of my daughters was to be like buffy I would of kicked her arse. Lets face it she was a Fuckin Mess she took notice of those idiots she classed as friends.Who in thier right minds would think they we anything like friends.As long as you went alomgwith what they say eg willow when she wanted to end the world she spoke the truth and zander what an arsehole! not only with her what a jealous bitch with Buffy. Joss was very distracted with firefox to notice anything! that was properly the reason Buffy was not renewed My thoughts only who knows
May 02 2009 01:57 pm   #24sosa lola
Okay, for those of us who aren't going to go out and buy the comics, is there a good site to go to at least find good synopses of them?

King of Certains used to write the transcripts in Buffy Forums, but he stopped after #21, sadly. He still follows the comics and reviews them though, but I guess he doesn't have enough time to write new transcripts.
May 02 2009 01:58 pm   #25Guest
I get so mad with Buff y for being a compete idiot  with her so called friends !she really gives me the shits. Why can't she see what a jealous bunch of idiots she has! But spike is really evil I don't think so! evil is as evil.Talk about kettle being black look at what joss feed us! not that it was all himm  you have to look at all of the writers hope they dont get to many jobs they were dreadfull. Joss How could you let us all down with idiots writting for you what a shame!
May 02 2009 02:05 pm   #26Guest
There is no empowment with buffy, She is a sheep follows everybody else the poor unfornate dickhead .who woukld want to follow someone thatlet her friends dictate her life
May 02 2009 02:14 pm   #27Guest
I agree with everything that has been said .What an She seemed to take notice of idiots 
May 02 2009 06:39 pm   #28sosa lola
You know, I've never thought or even noticed or heard about the Scoobies running Buffy's life until I came to this forum (and started reading Spuffy fics). When do they exactly run her life? The only time I thought they controled her life was when they brought her back from the dead, and I'm not sure it can be called controling her life, it was more about them playing god.

If it's about hidng her relationship with Spike, then I gotta say that it's mostly about her being ashamed of him. What would they actually say about this? Other than Xander, everybody seemed to get along just fine with him. And if Xander was able to deal with her dating Angel, then he'd do the same with her and Spike. In that situation she was the problem, not her friends.
May 02 2009 08:51 pm   #29Scarlet Ibis
When do they exactly run her life? The only time I thought they controled her life was when they brought her back from the dead, and I'm not sure it can be called controling her life, it was more about them playing god.
I think it stems from Buffy's delusion of them shunning her if she told them she was with Spike (which was a complete 180 from the end of season 5), when in reality, if the characters--Willow, Xander, Dawn and Giles--were in character, that wouldn't have happened.   Ever. They liked Spike (and I suspect Giles saw it coming, considering you know, everything), and they wanted to support and help Buffy, and why the character Buffy got this irrational fear, and actually decided to let it rule her?  I don't know.  But I don't blame the Scoobies for that.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 02 2009 10:23 pm   #30sosa lola
I think it stems from Buffy's delusion of them shunning her if she told them she was with Spike (which was a complete 180 from the end of season 5), when in reality, if the characters--Willow, Xander, Dawn and Giles--were in character, that wouldn't have happened. Ever. They liked Spike (and I suspect Giles saw it coming, considering you know, everything), and they wanted to support and help Buffy, and why the character Buffy got this irrational fear, and actually decided to let it rule her? I don't know. But I don't blame the Scoobies for that.

I agree. I can't believe Buffy would think they'd leave her or whatever if she told them she's with Spike. She was able to shut Giles and Xander up in The Gift, why won't she do that now? Eventually, she was wrong, seeing as in the right circumstances, Xander would be understanding, and Giles had laughed when he learned about it. No one stopped loving her.
May 02 2009 10:41 pm   #31Scarlet Ibis
eeing as in the right circumstances, Xander would be understanding
I think that's where the HUGE misconception of Xander comes into play.  Buffy believed he'd be an asshole about the whole Spike thing (again--stoopid), and somehow, a lot of the fans began to feel the same about him from that.  Except Buffy was way wrong about Xander, among many other things.  I mean, how could she (or anyone) could possibly think he'd flip out or something, when we see his initial reaction to them being together in "Something Blue" and "Intervention" is beyond me.  And those incidents were both before Spike was really a part of the team.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 02 2009 10:48 pm   #32Guest
I think that's where the HUGE misconception of Xander comes into play. Buffy believed he'd be an asshole about the whole Spike thing (again--stoopid), and somehow, a lot of the fans began to feel the same about him from that. Except Buffy was way wrong about Xander, among many other things.

I think the deal with fans'  negative ideas about Xander stems from how he's probably the most inconsistently written Scooby, especially when he deals with Spike (and Angel to a lesser extent). One episode Xander's an attempted rapist and the next episode he's Buffy most loyal and reliable Scooby. With Spike, sometimes Xander is a complete a-hole but others Spike and Xander seem almost like sarcastic friends.
May 03 2009 12:19 am   #33Eowyn315
I LOVE that line and call for the Potentials to become powerful young women and I LOVED the montage they used in that scene
And that's exactly how you're supposed to feel. It's inspiring words and inspiring images, and that's what Joss was trying to create - a great moment, not a coherent plan.

a place where women don't get ahead unless they're demons or as conniving and bitch-powered as Lilah, btw
Well, to be fair, NO ONE at W&H gets ahead unless they're a demon or as conniving as Lilah. Any time Lindsey attempted to take the high road, he got his ass handed to him, until eventually he just quit. And he wasn't even all goodness and light - I'd say if that's how Lindsey fared, I would hate to see what W&H would do to genuinely good people, but I think season 5 pretty much covered that.

Buffy railed against not being normal for SEVEN YEARS. Then she takes normal away from hundreds or thousands of innocent little girls. And the youngest was only TEN!!!
The thing to remember, though, is that Buffy didn't mind having Slayer powers. She hated the responsibility, and she hated the isolation. She didn't hate being able to kick ass or have super speed and healing abilities. That's why it was such a huge deal when Faith showed up - Buffy thought she could have a normal life if Faith acted as "the Slayer." Buffy would still have all her powers, but none of the responsibilities. She could go out with guys without having to worry about an apocalypse cropping up to ruin her date. She could go to college somewhere off the Hellmouth, no longer tied there by her duty. She'd be free to have friends and relationships without having to protect them or worry that someday she might have to make the horrible decision to sacrifice them to save the world.

Her conversation with Faith in "End of Days" reflects that - they both talk about being alone and how no one understands how it feels, and Faith caps it off with "Thank God we're hot chicks with superpowers." So Buffy's solution - making all Potentials into Slayers - effectively gives girls the kickass superpowers without the downsides. They don't have to be alone, they don't have to have the weight of the world on their shoulders, they'll never have to go through what Buffy went through as the one and only Slayer. That's the difference.

That doesn't make it a perfect plan. There are still downsides, like Dana and the rogue Slayers who choose to use their power for ill, or girls who didn't want the power but got it anyway. But from Buffy's perspective, it solves not only her present problem (how to fight the First with nothing but potential), but also all the problems she's had with being the Slayer. Again, look how excited she was by the prospect of ONE other Slayer. How much easier will it be - for all of them, not just Buffy, lest it be seen as selfish on her part - with thousands of them? I can totally understand why she would see it as being different from what the shadowmen did to her.

Joss was very distracted with firefox to notice anything! that was properly the reason Buffy was not renewed
LOL, I think you mean "Firefly," and that was canceled well before season 7 started. No, Buffy wasn't renewed because Joss (and SMG) decided to end the show. It wasn't canceled. The ending was planned out all along, since SMG said season 7 would be her last.

You know, I've never thought or even noticed or heard about the Scoobies running Buffy's life until I came to this forum (and started reading Spuffy fics). When do they exactly run her life?
I never really saw that, either, until I came here. The only instance I can think of is when they have the intervention in s3 when they discover that Angel is back. Although, I have to say, I think they were completely justified in being upset at that point, considering that Angel had gone evil and tried to kill them all not that long ago. Agreed that not telling them about her relationship with Spike was about Buffy being ashamed rather than them actually disapproving. It was all in Buffy's head - all the evidence indicates that they wouldn't have cared.

why the character Buffy got this irrational fear, and actually decided to let it rule her? I don't know. But I don't blame the Scoobies for that.
I think it came from Buffy herself. She thought it was wrong, she disapproved of it, so she translated that to her friends. Also, I think it's important that in this case, she viewed it as judgment of herself, not of Spike. With Angel, they were judging him. No one ever said, "Buffy, you're a bad person for dating him." The argument was, "He's dangerous, he tried to kill us, and you're putting us all at risk by trusting him again." But they all know Spike isn't dangerous, not least of which because the chip won't let him hurt anyone. They don't mind hanging out with him themselves, so if they found out about Buffy and Spike, Spike wouldn't be the one they were judging. The judgment she's afraid of is, "Buffy, there must be something wrong with you that you're attracted to someone soulless." And she's afraid of hearing it because she already believes it herself.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 03 2009 02:30 am   #34Guest

"Firefly" premiered Sept 20, 2002 and aired into December. 2002-2003 was season 7. So yes, Joss WAS on "Firefly".
Also? Season 7 wasn't absolutely known to be the last until a couple months in - it took Sarah that long to make her decision. And she aired it publicly in an interview before saying it to Joss. Until then, it was all hemming and hawing. Joss knew it was possible when he started writing season 7, but not definitively. They started filming in August and SMG didn't announce her decision until Oct. or Nov.

CM

May 03 2009 04:02 am   #35Eowyn315
Ah, I thought it was filmed the same time as season 6, since it's often blamed as the reason season 6 was so badly managed, but either way, it's still not the reason Buffy wasn't renewed, since it was Joss and co., not the network, that decided not to come back for another year. A lot of people talk about Buffy like it was canceled when it wasn't.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 03 2009 04:08 am   #36Spikez_tart
I LOVE that line and call for the Potentials to become powerful young women and I LOVED the montage they used in that scene

Ug - that scene made me want to puke.  It was just so manipulative and predictable.  In case I misled anyone, I think that Buffy zapping other girls into being slayers was crappy, especially considering her continued whining for 7 years about it, and I didn't know about the ten year old or that they necessarily became demon magnets - is that definite?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 03 2009 04:33 am   #37Guest
The thing that always rubbed me the wrong way was how the show was characterized as being empowering of women and having a feminist message on the basis of Buffy's PHYSICAL strength when really...I came to see her as a rather weak-willed character who didn't have a very strong sense of self and was desperate for external validation. 

What I saw in the show was some inversion of gender stereotypes...the the gender stereotypes were still there.  Celebrating Buffy's physical power as "empowerment" is actually the opposite of female empowerment.  She can bend a gun barrel with one hand.  So WHAT?  This actually says that women cannot be strong without being masculenized.  (Note:  Riley's inadeqacey issues.)  This just takes negative gender stereotypes and reverses them - but they're still there.  Spike was the woman in the relationship and she was unrepentantly abusive of him both physically and emotionally.  Then he's demonized in the "rape" scene.  Her relationships are all deeply dysfunctional.  She objectifies HERSELF.

Don't get me wrong.  I love the show.  But it is NOT particularly empowering of women.  That's not really what it's about.  I think it was mostly about the struggles of adolesence and early-adulthood.  Buffy really was just a normal girl in every way that mattered. 
May 03 2009 04:34 am   #38Scarlet Ibis
I didn't know about the ten year old or that they necessarily became demon magnets - is that definite?
I don't think they'll be demon magnets, but I do think their parents will take them to hospitals and whatnot to find out what's wrong with them, when they accidentally go around breaking stuff, or worse--people.  Imagine a game of Red Rover just after Willow's little spell kicked in...And yes, hypocrisy was all over Buffy's little speech. Nevermind her whining from years prior--"Get it Done" was that same year:

By making me less human? No, this isn't the way. You think I came all this way to get knocked up by some demon dust? I can't fight this. I know that now. But you guys? You're just men. Just the men who did this...to her. Whoever that girl was before she was the First Slayer. No, you don't understand! You violated that girl, made her kill for you because you're weak, you're pathetic, and you obviously have nothing to show me.


Oh come now--they were showing her "how to be strong."  Well, stronger.  Buffy sees the activation of a slayer as a violation, but it's suddenly an empowerment (for girls who didn't and had no way to consent) when she wanted it done. 

Anyway, I don't think they actually took a vote on the "activate all slayers" plan so much as they were cowed into it out of fear of not following Buffy's plan after Faith playing as leader didn't go so well.  And even if most said "yes," if someone said no, they still wouldn't have a choice, cause the spell would activat all of them.  And they knew it would.  

From now on, every girl in the world who might be a slayer..will be a slayer.  Every girl who could have the power...will have the power... can stand up, will stand up.  Slayers... every one of us. Make your choice.


The majority of the potentials weren't in the living room that day--they didn't get a choice. 
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 03 2009 06:23 am   #39nmcil

Great discussion everyone - and I might add, that this was one of the things that I loved so much about the series - No matter how you interpreted the what was shown on screen - It Made You Think and it made you feel such a powerful connection with these characters.  Each week was a total emotional and intellectual experience.

I still stand by my, some will say naive some will say misguided, interpretation of the scythe power transference theme.  I believe that Joss Whedon used that to make a statement to the viewers about finding the power you have within to take control of your life.  I know that we all understand how easy it is to lose your power and self esteem to other people - not just women but for men also.  Sure, it could be called "sappy - a hallmark kind of moment" and there are so many issues that it does not address, but it was, IMVHO.  intended to be seen as more than just a part of the storyline.  The Comic Season brings in this theme of taking the fight and power onto yourself not give it over to another person or entity -

Unfortunately for his personal message (which is strictly my interpretation) as Scalet Ibis rightly points out - this very episode is in total contradiction from the POV of Buffy's experience and rant from the earlier episode.  But Buffy also did, I think conclude that she may have made a big error as well/ 

By making me less human? No, this isn't the way. You think I came all this way to get knocked up by some demon dust? I can't fight this. I know that now. But you guys? You're just men. Just the men who did this...to her. Whoever that girl was before she was the First Slayer. No, you don't understand! You violated that girl, made her kill for you because you're weak, you're pathetic, and you obviously have nothing to show me.

Comic Season #24 takes up some of the theme of consequences for the newly created Slayers.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 03 2009 06:56 am   #40Scarlet Ibis
I believe that Joss Whedon used that to make a statement to the viewers about finding the power you have within to take control of your life.
Except they didn't take control of their lives--Buffy took the control for them.  Being a slayer, as pointed out by Anya in "Empty Places," has nothing to do with earning the right to power--it's just given like the lottery.


ANYA: And it's automatically you. You really do think you're better than we are. But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 03 2009 07:01 am   #41nmcil

I think that at the core  Xander  was presented as having a fundamental objection of demons, that he also had a real dislike for Spike.  Xander and Spike could be civil and did have times when they could interact without all the acrimony - but when things got tough for him or when the female leads engage his strong emotions - this fundamental core of dislike and unacceptance comes right back.

Examples of how strong his emotions and anger become engaged: 


Entrophy

ANYA: How?... It was just... it was just a thing. I...I felt bad, and he was just there.
BUFFY: Didn't take long, did it?
XANDER: O-oh! Okay... you had to do it. Because he was there. Like Mt. Everest. (a beat) Like I used to be.
ANYA: And then you weren't. You left *me*, Xander. At the altar. I don't owe you *anything*.
XANDER: So you go out and bang the first body you can find? Dead or alive?
ANYA: Where do *you* get off judging *me*?
XANDER: When this is your solution to our problems; I hurt you, and you get me back. Very mature.
ANYA: No, the mature solution is for you to spend your whole life telling stupid, pointless jokes so that no one will notice that you are just a scared, insecure little boy!
XANDER: I'm not joking now. You let that evil, soulless thing touch you. You wanted me to feel something? Congratulations, it worked. I look at you - and I feel sick - 'cause you had sex with that.
SPIKE: It was good enough for Buffy..
XANDER: Shut up and leave her out of...(looks at Buffy & realizes)
ANYA: (realizing) Buffy.
BUFFY: Xander--
XANDER: I don't want to know this, I don't want to know any of this. (stalks off. Buffy shoots Spike a daggered look and goes too)
SPIKE: Bloody Xander, buggered up everything. You know, I wish --
ANYA: (weary) Don't

Seeing Red

BUFFY: She loves you. You know that. Anya was just... she was hurting. She was hurting and she did this really stupid thing.
XANDER: With your boyfriend.
BUFFY: He's not my boyfriend.
XANDER: I know why Anya... I understand, I do. But you... All those times I told Spike to get lost, that he didn't have a chance with a girl like you...
BUFFY: You don't know how hard it's been.
XANDER: What, lying to me?
BUFFY: *Being* here. After I was brought back... You have no idea how hard it is just being here.
XANDER: You could have told me.
BUFFY: You didn't want to know.
XANDER: So you went to *him* instead?
BUFFY: Xander, what I do with my personal life is none of your business.
XANDER: It used to be.

BUFFY: It just happened, okay.
XANDER: Oh, like, "Say, you're evil. Get on me."?
BUFFY: (ticked) You fought side by side with him when I was gone. *You* let him take care of Dawn --
XANDER: But I never forgot what he really is. God, what were you thinking?
BUFFY: You're asking *me* that? Oh, 'cause your decision making skills have *really* sparkled lately.
XANDER: I'm not saying I didn't made mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of 'em. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?
BUFFY: It doesn't matter. I'm not seeing him anymore. It's over.
XANDER: Yeah. Lot of that going around.

(storms out)

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 03 2009 07:27 am   #42Scarlet Ibis
That isn't a fair comparison to what Xander's reaction might have been beforehand at all.  Before all that, he would have been okay with it.  Xander doesn't get credit at all when it wasn't him with the problem of having Spike around.  He wouldn't have blown up--he wouldn't have disowned Buffy--he wouldn't have called Spike a slew of names had he been told upfront.  Showing his reaction post seeing Spike and Anya together and post the bathroom scene--yeah, it wasn't a good one.  I didn't expect it to be either.  If he really thought so lowly of Spike, he wouldn't have saved him in s4 (I'm referring to "Doomed," in which earlier in the ep, he makes sarcastic remarks about Spike offing himself, but then is the one to help a disoriented Spike out of the Hellmouth after some of the ceiling nearly knocked Spike out), or let him live with him--twice.  I don't care who his BFF is or isn't--if he really hated Spike?  No way, no how.  Xander seems to be getting the blame for Buffy's feelings about Spike, and it really isn't fair.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 03 2009 10:33 am   #43Guest

personally, and i'm not sure if i've voiced this before, but i never liked buffy. i loved the show, and as has already been stated here, thought of it as a coming of age thing. the use of real demons mirroring the demons of life.  
but woman empowerment, not so much. she hated being a slayer.
She hated the responsibility, and she hated the isolation. She didn't hate being able to kick ass or have super speed and healing abilities.
she made such a huge deal out of giles taking her powers away from her in season three helpless but that's all she ever complained about; wanting to be normal. yeah he did it kind of shady like, but still. she was always SO hypocritical there were times in my life i was like, i just can't watch this shit.

The majority of the potentials weren't in the living room that day--they didn't get a choice.
she didn't a choice, and now she didn't give them a choice. she did essentially the same thing the shadowmen did, just on a much larger scale. ok yeah, they’re not going to be alone anymore. but they’re still gonna be seen as freaks, and in reality(which i am COMPLETELY aware this is not) people are afraid of what they don't understand. so now instead of one girl having to deal with all the crap that comes with being the slayer, hundreds of girls have to deal with it.
i'm sorry i just can't agree with that. if i know how much something sucks, i'm gonna try and not project it on to others.
just me. what i did love about that eps. was spike's sacrifice. even though i wanted to punch that B**** in the freakin' face when she told him she loved him. and then bawled my eyes out at his response. he's the coolest. :)

May 03 2009 10:34 am   #44Legen
^ that was me, stupid crappy internet
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
May 03 2009 12:17 pm   #45Guest
Yeah, The Littlest Slayer in the montage was supposed to be 10 - the young actress' actual age at the time she filmed it. I met her and her mother at a finale party I worked at for "Chosen". Adorable kid, sure she's gorgeous now. She was the one in the Little League uniform standing at bat in the montage. (there's an age limit to Little League, actually, anyway.)

I brought up the demon magnet thing because Buffy's always been targeted as the Slayer......granted, she roams in places demons are, but I have a feeling the supernatural will ALWAYS find Slayers no matter where they are. Just takes one vamp to go "Hey, I think there's a Slayer in Kalamazoo!!" - word will spread. And I'd count it as a certainty that Wolfram and Hart offices will try to recruit the baby Slayers before the Council can get to them.....or just take them prisoner. With all the prophesies, rituals, spells......suddenly having hundreds or thousands of Slayers that don't know what they are is a goldmine!

CM
May 03 2009 04:31 pm   #46sosa lola
That isn't a fair comparison to what Xander's reaction might have been beforehand at all.

I agree. In the moment of anger, one reacts so irrationally to the situation at hand. It's not just a Xander thing, almost all the characters act stupid when hurt (Willow in Seeing Red, Giles in Passions, Spike in Crush, Anya in Hell's Bells... etc)

We've already seen how Xander reacts to Spuffy before Entropy... he didn't flip or make rude comments, he was actually understanding in Intervention. He was happy back then. I think Xander's reaction depends on the situation and time.
May 03 2009 06:30 pm   #47Eowyn315
I believe that Joss Whedon used that to make a statement to the viewers about finding the power you have within to take control of your life.
Exactly. The thing is, the Potentials are already special, so they are kind of separate from the rest of the girls in the world, but the metaphor doesn't look at them within the context of the real world. It takes them as representative of women in general, meaning the Potentials are women with unrealized power. Power they can only access when men decide they can, one at a time, so the men can control them. Just as all women have unrealized power, but can't use it because they've grown up in a male-dominant society that tells them not to challenge men or aspire to the same things men do, and those that do try find themselves hitting a glass ceiling. Buffy says, essentially, that's not fair. You have this power inside you, you should be able to use this power, not when some mystical formula set up by men says you can use it, but whenever you want. You shouldn't let men control when and how you get power. You should just get it, and you can control what you do with it. That's how it's a metaphor for female empowerment. It's not about some special girls being given superpowers - it's about those girls being representative of all women, being granted access to something that is already rightfully theirs, which has been held back by men.

ANYA: And it's automatically you. You really do think you're better than we are. But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.
I think this is addressing a slightly different (but related) issue: privilege. It's not something I've heard talked about much in relation to the Buffyverse, but reading over Anya's quote, that's exactly a description of privilege. Some people are just born into better circumstances than others. You can't help what gender, or skin color, or economic class you were born into. It's the luck of the draw. But the question is, for those who have privilege, what do you do with it? It's not a bad thing to have privileges - in a perfect world, we'd all be privileged. And that's exactly what Buffy does. She takes her privilege and she shares it with other people. (Granted, she can't share it with everyone, because of the construct of the spell, but she shares it with everyone she is able to.) I don't know if there's even a real-world equivalent to that, but it's an interesting thing to think about.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 07 2009 02:49 pm   #48Guest
Oh yes ! Zander could be be quite charming when it suited him. But with buffy he wasn't. He couldn't see straight .He could turn everyone against each other and turn them to his way of thinking.
May 07 2009 03:08 pm   #49Guest
To be quiet honest I thank the wonderfull writers of Buffy fanfic They were better than the ones that wrote for the show!! Their stories are always better than what we saw on the show anyway!I  know I should say thanks to Joss and give him his dues,which I do, But the fanfic is better.We Live in the recesses 0f yours and our own minds and I thank you very much and whole heartly thank each and everyone of you.I have enjoyed each and every one I have read  Thank you for taking the time to share them.         Teena
May 07 2009 06:42 pm   #50nmcil
I agree. In the moment of anger, one reacts so irrationally to the situation at hand. It's not just a Xander thing, almost all the characters act stupid when hurt (Willow in Seeing Red, Giles in Passions, Spike in Crush, Anya in Hell's Bells... etc) We've already seen how Xander reacts to Spuffy before Entropy... he didn't flip or make rude comments, he was actually understanding in Intervention. He was happy back then. I think Xander's reaction depends on the situation and time.

the point I was trying to make about Xander is that at his deepest level, when he goes to the most elemental place of his mind and spirit, IMO, he has a fundamental distrust and dislike of demons.  When the Xander character is confronted with his most extreme emotions involving his most intimate relationship and demons and things get ugly he reverts to this core level.  All the character, and we do as well, can go crazy under extreme stress  and often things that we try to keep hidden or repress come out. 

Look at the dialogue from the "Entropy" scene - the things he said don't just speak to his anger, they give voice to his total disgust and abhorrence for Anya because she has sexual relations with  a vile and disgusting thing.  We saw his anger and resentment come out with the library scene when Buffy wants to attempt to restore the soul of  Angel/Angelus.  

I personally don't place too much trust on all the good times that depict Xander and Spike in their more amiable moments - primarily because the writers have this constant back-forth treatment for them.  Just one example is "Normal Again"  - the cemetery scene has Xander being a First Class jerk. He has the unmitigated gaul to take the high ground against Spike and to deny that Spike has any right to be part of her life.  Xander inserts himself as the keeper and caretaker of Buffy and treats Spike like nothing but a worthless vile low life.   The next time we see them, this vile worthless low life is shown work right along side Xander and the are shown as amiably working together.  And this back-forth treatment is used over and over - but when things get down and dirty and ugly Xander's basic dislike of demons takes control. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 07 2009 08:31 pm   #51Scarlet Ibis
Xander inserts himself as the keeper and caretaker of Buffy
He couldn't be able to do that if she didn't allow him access to do so.

If that had been oh say Riley in SR, he would have pulled out every insulting thing he could think of to describe him as well.  And as far as his comments in the beginning of "Normal Again," well where exactly do you think his info came from?  In fact, it is Buffy who quickly says as soon as her friends approach, that she's checking Spike for nefarious contraband.  Xander was basically following her lead.  I don't believe Xander genuinely disliked Spike.  Or demons.  He tried to defend Angel wasn't evil to Faith when they found an unconscious Giles--he wasn't blinded by hatred there.  He didn't spend the evening cracking rude jokes at Buffy's b-day party at Spike and Clem's expense, or early on at the wedding with Anya's guests.  In fact, I think if he'd truly been prejudice, he would have told Anya "uh uh--no way" to her wedding guest list, and Anya, following Xander's lead all the time, would have pouted, but submitted to his will.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 07 2009 11:53 pm   #52Guest
the point I was trying to make about Xander is that at his deepest level, when he goes to the most element place of his mind and spirit, IMO, he has a fundamental distrust and dislike of demons.

I agree, but you should remember Anya in this. Yes she started off human but she CHOSE to become a demon and enjoyed her life as a demon. Every time I saw Xander bashing Spike, I saw it as Xander being a hypocrite to the very core because he's with Anya, especially when he had the nerve to act disgusted when Anya slept with Spike! Hell, when you compare who was more evil and did the most damage, Anya (with a thousand years of gleefully causing death and mayhem) wins by a long shot. And to top it off, Anya CHOSE to be like that whereas Spike was born a demon (and even then Angelus had to turn him into a monster).

Personally, I think what people believe to be Xander's prejudice towards all demons is really this: a bit of an inferiority complex because he's just a weak little human mixed with him not liking that anyone touching "his" women (I maintain that Xander never completely got over his crush on Buffy). Spike being a demon was more of a reason that gave justified (in Xander's mind) his right to be such an ass towards any of Buffy's love interests that Xander didn't approve of (as if he had any right to have any say in who she could date).
May 08 2009 01:20 am   #53sosa lola

When I view Xander's character, I look at his actions when he's calm and happy, not when he's angry and depressed. We act differently when we're relaxed than when we're upset.

but when things get down and dirty and ugly Xander's basic dislike of demons takes control.

I don't see anything wrong with hating demons, seeing as they usually try to kill humans. So it's not a bad thing. What's bad is disliking the good demons, and so far, Xander only disliked Angel and Spike. Xander may dislike Angel -for jealousy and Angelus and Jesse reasons. Dislikes Spike for the lack of soul... and because he tried to kill them more than once in the past. But other than them, he got along nice with all their demon-un normal friends like Anya, Oz, Clem, Anya's guests in Hell's Bells and so on.

a bit of an inferiority complex because he's just a weak little human mixed with him not liking that anyone touching "his" women (I maintain that Xander never completely got over his crush on Buffy).

I don't get this Xander and his harem theory. Why was he okay with Buffy dating Scott Hope, Riley, Ben, Richard and Wood then? He seemed to fine with her dating Angel after Revelation, and fine with Buffy and Spike's relationship in S7 after Him. Also, he didn't seem to mind Willow's partners. Or Dawn's crush on RJ for that matter.

Just because a guy is protective of his friends, it doesn't mean he thinks he owns them, it just means he cares.

I do agree with you about Xander being a hypocrite when it comes to his relationship with Anya and Buffy's with vamps. But the writers dealt with it in Selfless, notice how Xander's attitude toward Spike and Buffy's decisions regarding him being more understanding and sympathetic.

May 08 2009 01:42 am   #54Scarlet Ibis
The thing that's being missed here is this: Xander could only truly be a hypocrite if Anya's past counted to him.  Xander is simple in that "human/soul= good."  Anya was human the whole time they were together (minus season seven, but he grew up by then).  So no, it was not hypocritical for him to date Anya, because to him, what she was was made irrelevant once she was just a plain human again.  Oz too gets a pass, because that was something that happened to him.  Not to mention he caged himself every month.

I'm not saying it's right--that was logic that wasn't, but that's where he was coming from.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 08 2009 07:59 am   #55Guest
Why was he okay with Buffy dating Scott Hope, Riley, Ben, Richard and Wood then?

Maybe because they were all human and fit into Xander's view of the kind of person Buffy should be romantically involved in.

Just because a guy is protective of his friends, it doesn't mean he thinks he owns them, it just means he cares.

There's a big difference in a guy being protective of his female friends and thinking that he has any right to try and tell a girl who she should and should not date. That's especially true when Xander turns around and starts dating a thousand year old ex demon who STILL has no qualms about all the evil she did.

The thing that's being missed here is this: Xander could only truly be a hypocrite if Anya's past counted to him. Xander is simple in that "human/soul= good." Anya was human the whole time they were together

You mean Xander, the guy who kept telling Anya what was and was not "appropriate" to say (so much for feminism being one of the show's themes) and who didn't want to hear anything about her demonic past. Oh he cared about Anya's past all right - he wanted to pretend it didn't exsist  because it didn't fit into his world view.

That right there is a trait of not only a hippocrite but a rascist as well: "It doesn't fit into what I want to believe so I refuse to acknowledge anything that pokes holes in what I want to believe. I the mean time, I am going to keep doing whatever the hell I want to do regardless of whether it goes against what I find to be 'disgusting' when someone else does it."


May 08 2009 11:02 am   #56sosa lola

Maybe because they were all human and fit into Xander's view of the kind of person Buffy should be romantically involved in.

It still says that Xander didn't want Buffy romantically after S2... or that he accepted that it'll never happen.

There's a big difference in a guy being protective of his female friends and thinking that he has any right to try and tell a girl who she should and should not date.

Being protective is telling your friend your opinion. How can he be protective if he kept it to himself? Leave out Xander's objections of Buffy's boyfriends in S1 and S2, he was obviously jealous and wanted her to notice him. But after that, the only guy he didn't think was good for Buffy was Spike, because he didn't have a soul. In S7, he grew out of that view after his experience with Anya in Selfless.

That right there is a trait of not only a hippocrite but a rascist as well: "It doesn't fit into what I want to believe so I refuse to acknowledge anything that pokes holes in what I want to believe. I the mean time, I am going to keep doing whatever the hell I want to do regardless of whether it goes against what I find to be 'disgusting' when someone else does it."

How is disliking demons making him a racist? They're not the same species, and demons tried to kill him more than once. There's nothing racist about hating them. Now if Xander didn't go out with Lisa (First Date) because she was black, that would be racism.
 

May 08 2009 07:16 pm   #57Guest
How is disliking demons making him a racist? They're not the same species, and demons tried to kill him more than once. There's nothing racist about hating them. Now if Xander didn't go out with Lisa (First Date) because she was black, that would be racism.

First, there are many kinds of racism; prejudice against blacks is but one kind. Just because someone has no problem with blacks doesn't automatically mean they aren't a racist. Racism is blindly hating and looking down upon someone for WHAT they are, not WHO they are.

Hmm... I admit that Xander's attitudes are similar to a racist's, because he hated Spike because he was a vampire, not because Spike had tried to kill him years ago and how was visibly disgusted when he found out that that Buffy "debased" herself by letting Spike touch her.

Still, I agree with Xander being a complete hippocrate: like it or not Anya used to be a demon and she liked being a demon and she enjoyed causing pain and suffering. Xander refused to acknowledge a HUGE part of who Anya was but always viewed Spike as filth. He was always the first to condemn Spike for his demoinc nature but all the while Xander is in a relationship with someone who makes Spike look like a rank amateur when it comes to being evil.

May 08 2009 09:02 pm   #58sosa lola

First, there are many kinds of racism; prejudice against blacks is but one kind. Just because someone has no problem with blacks doesn't automatically mean they aren't a racist. Racism is blindly hating and looking down upon someone for WHAT they are, not WHO they are.

I didn't say that hating blacks is the only meaning to racism. I was just giving an example.

If vampires were real, I'd hate them, too. Why? Because they live on my blood. The second I run into one, I'd die. If that's not reason enough to hate them, then I don't know what. Racism -to me- can work on humans, because we're all the same. The differences are in features and skin color and culture, but other than that, we're all the same.

In the end, Xander learned how much of a hypocrite he was, and was more supportive and understanding toward Spike and Buffy's feelings for him. And that's what matters.

May 08 2009 09:18 pm   #59Scarlet Ibis
The second I run into one, I'd die.
Well, there are a lot of things and animals that can kill someone--doesn't mean that I'd hate them.  Like tigers--they're neat.  But I wouldn't want to be within any kind of distance of one, cause yeah, they'd kill me.  Unless they were in a habitat thingy at a zoo.

But yeah, Xander realized his hypocrisy (though I still don't believe he realized himself as being hypocritical, until realizing it in season seven) when he and Buffy had that argument about her going to kill Anya.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 08 2009 11:27 pm   #60Guest
In the end, Xander learned how much of a hypocrite he was, and was more supportive and understanding toward Spike and Buffy's feelings for him. And that's what matters.

I hate the "it all turned out well in the end and that's all that matters" argument because it belittles everything else that happened leading up to "in the end". Even the greatest a tragedies eventually turn out "alright". WWII eventually turned out "alright" in that the atomic bomb ensured that a worldwide war wouldn't happen again but the atrocities committed back then really f-ing matter.

In Xander's case, he did alot of damage before he wised up. His attitudes and hypocrisy were one of the main reasons why Buffy was such a doormat.

If vampires were real, I'd hate them, too. Why? Because they live on my blood. The second I run into one, I'd die. If that's not reason enough to hate them, then I don't know what.

So you hate pretty much all wild animals do you?

I got news for you: as much as we'd like to think we humans are the top of the food chain while we sit comfortably in our houses and high rises, it's just not true. Humans are slow, weak and VERY EDIBLE to pretty much any predator in the wild.
May 08 2009 11:28 pm   #61Guest
If vampires were real, I'd hate them, too. Why? Because they live on my blood.

One word: mosquitoes
May 09 2009 01:07 am   #62Scarlet Ibis
In Xander's case, he did alot of damage before he wised up. His attitudes and hypocrisy were one of the main reasons why Buffy was such a doormat.
No need to blame Xander cause Buffy decided to be spineless and mindless when it came to her own romantic life.  He could say and rant whatever he wanted--she didn't have to listen.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 09 2009 11:09 am   #63Guest
don't kid your self I don't think he ever wised up.The show finished before we knew what he thought. But I have to agree he was a bigot, no denying it.He was so revengeful to everyone he thought he could play! including playing Giles and Willow.
May 09 2009 07:53 pm   #64sosa lola

In Xander's case, he did alot of damage before he wised up. His attitudes and hypocrisy were one of the main reasons why Buffy was such a doormat.

But it wasn't just Xander, Buffy didn't tell anyone about her and Spike. Willow and Dawn liked him, yet she convinced herself that they'd hate her if they knew about it. I agree with Scarlet, the problem is Buffy, not Xander.

So you hate pretty much all wild animals do you?

They scare me, I don't wanna be close to them, but I don't hate them.  And I certainly don't compare vampires to animals because they're not. Vampires have brains, they can think. They're more dangerous. If they existed, I wouldn't want to be near them, and if they killed someone I love, I'll hate their guts.

don't kid your self I don't think he ever wised up. The show finished before we knew what he thought. But I have to agree he was a bigot, no denying it. He was so revengeful to everyone he thought he could play! including playing Giles and Willow.

While S7 was a lousy season, there's no doubt that Xander's views had changed. "Never Leave Me" is the perfect example. Perhaps if we reach S7 in the episode discussions, I can point out all the moments showing a mature, changed Xander.

And Xander was no more of a bigot than Spike before S5, who stated that humans are happy meals walking on legs. (IMO, none of them is a bigot, I can't apply racism on different species. )

 

May 10 2009 06:45 am   #65nmcil
Here is another of the examples of why it is so difficult for some viewers to reconcile themselves to the Xander character - he seems to easily decide that he will ignore Anya's history - and Anya never showed any regrets and guilt about her vengeance curses - if she did, someone please correct me.  Anya and Halfrek sat at the table discussing over all the dead bodies how she was involved in helping bring on The Russian Revolution.  Xander is doing the "selective seeing" dance a lot of the times.

From "Seeing Red"

Xander:  I'm not saying I didn't made mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of 'em. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 10 2009 06:52 am   #66Scarlet Ibis
Is that really from SR or the following ep?  I think it came post the ep...what was Buffy's response?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 10 2009 04:42 pm   #67sosa lola
he seems to easily decides that he will ignore Anya's history - and Anya never showed any regrets and guilt about her vengeance curses - if she did, someone please correct me.

I don't think she ever did, she started to see how awful her deeds are after Entropy. Started to slowly realize that while some men are awful, they sure don't deserve her unfair punishments.

Xander is doing the "selective seeing" dance a lot of the times.

I guess it helps that Xander never saw Anya in action until he fell in love with her, but the first time he met Spike, he was trying to kill Buffy. -I've written an essay a while back on why it was easier to accept Anya as a Scooby than Spike.

Is that really from SR or the following ep? I think it came post the ep...what was Buffy's response?

It was in Seeing Red:

BUFFY: You have no idea how hard it is just being here.
XANDER: You could have told me.
BUFFY: You didn't want to know.
XANDER: So you went to him instead?
BUFFY: Xander, what I do with my personal life is none of your business.
XANDER: (softly) It used to be.

Buffy fidgets like she doesn't know how to answer that.

BUFFY: It just happened, okay?
XANDER: (chuckles bitterly) Oh, like, uh, "Say, you're evil. Get on me"?
BUFFY: You fought side by side with him when I was gone. You let him take care of Dawn.
XANDER: But I never forgot what he really is. (Buffy looking hurt) God, what were you thinking?
BUFFY: (laughs) You're asking me that? Oh, 'cause your decision making skills have really sparkled lately.
XANDER: I'm not saying I didn't make any mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of them. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?
BUFFY: (resigned) It doesn't matter. I'm not seeing him anymore. It's over.
XANDER: Yeah. There's a lot of that going around.

May 11 2009 02:31 am   #68Guest
XANDER: I'm not saying I didn't make any mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of them. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then? BUFFY: (resigned) It doesn't matter. I'm not seeing him anymore. It's over.

Yeah, that is a really hypocritical statement in so many ways.

I get why Anya's past as willingly becoming a demon goes over Xander's head, but why does it go over Buffy's? 

~Scarlet