When Spike broke into the Magic Box with Dawn, he tried to pick up the big hammer that belonged to Anya's troll. When he did, it was too heavy for him to lift and he dropped it.

Then, I think it was " The weight Of The World" when Anya tells Buffy that she should use Olaf's Hammer to help defeat Glory.
When Buffy reaches for the hammer, Spike steps up and is about to warn her that it's super heavy, but then stifles himself when she manages to pick it up with ease.

Why is it that she could wield it and not Spike?
It was a gods weapon so does that mean that the slayer is like some sort of goddess?

Can anyone 'splain?

Well initially, if I remember correctly, there was nothing mentioned about Olaf being a god in "Triangle," and I'd imagine if he was, Xander would have been smite from the first blow.

But the bottom line is that slayers are ridiculously stronger than vamps.  We see it in "The Weight of the World," and it is mentioned in "Sanctuary" on Ats.

But the bottom line is that slayers are ridiculously stronger than vamps.

Yes, that`s true, but it still annoys the hell outta me. I bet if Angel were the one to pick up the hammer, it wouldn`t be to heavy for him.

And Spike killed TWO slayers... In my opinion Spike not being able to pick up the hammer was just stupid. Castrate him much?, the writers would have made evil Spike swing it around!

Well, brute strength isn't what wins the fight alone--cunning, skill, David v. Goliath and so forth.  Take "Helpless" for instance. 

And it was Angel who said that Buffy was stronger than him in "Sanctuary" ;)

06/21/2009 02:29 pm Well initially, if I remember correctly, there was nothing mentioned about Olaf being a god in "Triangle," and I'd imagine if he was, Xander would have been smite from the first blow.

I don't mean a God "God". But jus a ruler of trolls, ya know? It's been awhile since I saw that episode.

But the bottom line is that slayers are ridiculously stronger than vamps.

That just doesn't make ANY sense. What about when Buffy nearly got killed by that blond vamp chick on campus in season 4?
And yeah, Spike did kill two slayers! And then when Spike first meets Buffy on PT night, he almost gets her before her mom steps in and hits him with a hammer.

And another thing that annoys me is that Spike got his ass kicked by that psycho slayer, Dana, in angel S5. I don't get it..
She had NO experience fighting vamps and SOMEHOW she won and cut off Spikes arms.

I'm so confused.

And it was Angel who said that Buffy was stronger than him in "Sanctuary"

I think that was because he was off human blood. Remember in the episode where he gets super strong from drinking his son's blood? And then rips the limbs off that demon band and goes all carnal

I don't mean a God "God". But jus a ruler of trolls, ya know? It's been awhile since I saw that episode.
It's been awhile since I saw it too, but I'm pretty sure that whole "god" thing isn't mentioned at all until "The Weight of the World."

That just doesn't make ANY since. What about when Buffy nearly got killed by that blond vamp chick on campus in season 4? And yeah, Spike did kill two slayers! And then when Spike first meets Buffy on PT night, he almost gets her before her mom steps in and hits him with a hammer.
Don't know what to say about Summer or whatever her name was.  Buffy did have a loss of confidence at that point though...Spike's just a better fighter, especially against s2 Buffy.  And maybe there's something to that whole "slayers' have death wishes" thing.  Though I did think it was mighty stupid that average woman Joyce could stop Spike with a tap on the head from a two by four. with the flat side of an axe.

And Dana cheated--she drugged Spike.  That's how she won.  Which in turn is how Angel won moments later when he saved Spike from Dana.

And there's nowhere that mentions that human blood makes a vamp stronger or not.  Just whether or not they have mammal blood and are fed regularly.  Drinking his son's blood just...increased his blood lust or something, but didn't make him stronger.

Scarlet, I couldn't help but notice your avatar.. Is that really you and James or did you just do some photo-manip?

Yeah, I don't do photoshop.

That's' me at Fangoria with James ;)  An LJ bud--ducktheduck--made my photo op into some icons for me.

That just doesn't make ANY sense. - LOL like so many things in the Buffyverse!  How is it that Angel is able to leap two storie buildings and Spike can't?  How is it that Spike is supposed to be the super strong vamp, but Buffy regularly kicks his butt?  These are deep deep mysteries.

Scarlet is James' secret honey.  We drool and bow in awe.  She spoke to James and her tongue didn't fall off!  She touched him!  OMG!  It doesn't bear thinking about.

Scarlet is James' secret honey. We drool and bow in awe. She spoke to James and her tongue didn't fall off! She touched him! OMG! It doesn't bear thinking about.

Yeah, all she has to do is wear that hot pink dress, and James is the one drooling

Scarlet is James' secret honey.
In my dreams, this is true.  I sometimes wish I could magic my dreams into reality--Freddy Kreuger style.  But you know--minus all the bloodshed and horror.  And Christmas sweaters just aren't that sexy :P

Joyce hit him in the head with the flat side of an ax.

Anya tells Buffy "His strength is in his hammer!" when they're fighting Olaf in the Magic Box.

Well, you'll notice that Angel only does the really cool things on his own show. They've admitted that on BTVS, the vamps are never going to do against Buffy what they get to on AtS - because it's her show and she's the hero. That's the prime reasoning behind it.

CM

Christmas sweaters just aren't that sexy - True - but that purple dress!  Sex personified.

They've admitted that on BTVS, the vamps are never going to do against Buffy what they get to on AtS
I thought that was just cause they had better special effects on Ats?  Or at least, that was part of it...Spike was very aerodynamic on that show than he was previously :P  And Angel.  Harmony...etc.

And thanks Tart :D (should be a smiley there, but isn't)

Well, this thread took on a whole new meaning...lol!  Scarlet is just one lucky biatch, she just wants to torture us with that sexy icon, so much better than my boring one.  *pouts*

Ah, Tammy, you know we are all jealous that you got up close and personal with James ;-)

Not as close as I would have liked;)

they had better special effects on Ats?   - They sure had better fight scenes.  Must have had a lot more money.

Nope, just different choreographers for stunts/fights.

I've even heard it from Joss - Vamps would never be cool on BTVS, in the way of being about to beat her, etc., because it's her show.

CM

I've even heard it from Joss - Vamps would never be cool on BTVS, in the way of being about to beat her, etc., because it's her show.

In my book, that`s actually fine. I was one of those people who chewed their fingernails to bits when that vamp staked her in season five, so I probably wouldn`t be able to take it on a regular basis, lol.

Well, brute strength isn't what wins the fight alone--cunning, skill, David v. Goliath and so forth. Take "Helpless" for instance. And it was Angel who said that Buffy was stronger than him in "Sanctuary" ;)

Hm... That actually made my "Spike is being written stupidly" voice feel a little better^^.

While it doesn't make sense -not everything in the show does anyway- I actually like the idea of Spike not being this know-it-all, can-do-it-all guy. It's the reason why I like him more than Angel. I enjoy the characters that can be put in clumsy situations from time to time, makes me relate to them more. So, Spike not being the all time powerful hero is a plus in my book.

Actually, it makes perfect sense that slayers would be stronger than vamps. If they weren't stronger, they couldn't inspire the kind of fear that they do.

And as for Spike and Buffy as a case in point, think of it this way... In 120 years of trying, Spike killed two slayers. In 7 years of trying, Buffy probably killed somewhere between two hundred and two thousand vamps. So, yep, something tells me she's a tad stronger.

Besides Angel saying Buff is "a little stronger" than him in Sanctuary, and the obvious joke in Weight of the World, there is absolutely no mention of Slayers being stronger than vampires even a little, let alone a huge amount. We never even see Buffy overpower a vamp or demon, it's usually a trading of blows and her abliity to fight and block or dodge gives her an edge. I gues you could say she wins because her punches are stronger and we just can't tell watching from the sidelines, but I think that's more of a cop-out. And I think demons are supposed to be afraid of the Slayer because of the great myth and legend surrounding them and the fact that their whole purpose is to kill their kind and save the world! It's more the hype than the fact that a little girl has been endowed with special strength.

A little OT, but when do we see vampires acting scared of the Slayer in canon anyway? They act like she's worthy enough to be considered an opponent and not a nuisance of a do-gooder human, and think killing a Slayer wins bragging rights, but never do vamps act afraid of her. Willy was the only one really afraid of her. I think Spike's talk about the Slayer from demon perspective, that she's the frightening monster to them, was pretty cool, and wish we'd seen some more talks between demons that worry about her or talk of her more reverently. Even random, weak vamps she happens to come across on patrol never run away, but always seem to think they can beat the Slayer! And Sunday from HLoD definitely wasn't scared!

but when do we see vampires acting scared of the Slayer in canon anyway?
In "Crush"--the two vamps chilling on the couch say "Slayer" and then flee.

And there are plenty of scenes of Buffy giving chase to fleeing vamps.  A lot of them are foolhardy and think they can best her, sure...but they're almost always wrong.

We never even see Buffy overpower a vamp or demon,
She overpowers an ubervamp (not talking about "Chosen" and all of the backtracking that it did...I'm talking "Showtime" ), and Glory's pet snake...these are the only examples coming to mind, but yeah, the impression was always given (to me anyway) that she had superior strength.  Now, did she need proper training so that she could use that power the right way (form, technique, etc.)?  Yes.  But that doesn't negate the fact that her uber strength wasn't there.

To make a slayer more powerful than a vampire is probably intentional. Those shadow men wouldn't have made someone less powerful, 'cause what's the point?

I think Buffy is a little stronger than vampires, not too much. What bugs me is how did Olaf suddenly become a god, why would Anya wish him into a god in the first place?

And as for Spike and Buffy as a case in point, think of it this way... In 120 years of trying, Spike killed two slayers. In 7 years of trying, Buffy probably killed somewhere between two hundred and two thousand vamps. So, yep, something tells me she's a tad stronger.
But we don't actually know that he had actually tried to kill any other slayers.
And if he did, and failed; he'd be dead.

Which I guess means that he just got lucky and was in the right place at the right time when he killed them.

In "Crush"--the two vamps chilling on the couch say "Slayer" and then flee.

Oh yeah. And they were makin' popcorn.
That cracks me up every time lol

Which I guess means that he just got lucky and was in the right place at the right time when he killed them.
Well, they all had a bit of luck in the fighting department, didn't they?  Buffy was lucky that Xander was around to give her CPR, and lucky to have Riley patrolling during FFL, or she would have been killed then, and Faith was lucky Angelus brought back the sun, cause otherwise, she would have been dead too. 

And if he did, and failed; he'd be dead.
Not really--he failed to kill Buffy plenty of times.

they had better special effects on Ats?   - They sure had better fight scenes.  Must have had a lot more money.
Ats was filmed in wide screen, and frankly, the quality just looked better overall to me.  It had more movie elements to it than BtVS, and well, a lot of shows.

The sets from AtS were always more appealing to me  - a lot more interesting visually and I also think that the villains and characters were more interesting.

Buffy always seemed to be on pretty much an equal basis in her fighting skills with Spike - and when he had the upper hand, it was usually lost by his own stupid mistakes or an intervention.  But the logic of The Slayer having to be stronger and a real bringer of final death has to be part of the mythos - or as sosa lola comments, she would have to be stronger or the vampires would not fear her.  Spike also makes the point:  " A good thing, too. Become a vampire, you've got nothing to fear. Nothing but one girl. That's you, honey. Back then... it was her."

Anyway - the troll hammer was just used for comedy in the Dawn-Spike Magic Box scene and to emphasis Buffy's strength and Superhero status in the initial episode; was changed as "plot device" for  their final battle with Glory - one mythic connection would be Thor's Hammer which is used for defense and requires supernatural strength to yield.

Anyway - the troll hammer was just used for comedy in the Dawn-Spike Magic Box scene and to emphasis Buffy's strength and Superhero status in the initial episode; was changed as "plot device" for their final battle with Glory - one mythic connection would be Thor's Hammer which is used for defense and requires supernatural strength to yield.

I understand, but it still makes no sense in the way that Spike also has super powers and should be able to do what Buffy can, even if he is a little bit weaker.
Buffy's powers are derived from vampiric essence so that should make her and Spike more or less matched even if she IS stronger than him somewhat.

The hammer bit was just STUPID!

God, I wish the writers actually took the time to explain this crap in detail so we don't have to keep guessing.

Buffy always seemed to be on pretty much an equal basis in her fighting skills with Spike - and when he had the upper hand, it was usually lost by his own stupid mistakes or an intervention. But the logic of The Slayer having to be stronger and a real bringer of final death has to be part of the mythos - or as sosa lola comments, she would have to be stronger or the vampires would not fear her. Spike also makes the point: " A good thing, too. Become a vampire, you've got nothing to fear. Nothing but one girl. That's you, honey. Back then... it was her."

I totally agree with you on all of that.
But it still doesn't explain about the gawd DAMN HAMMER!!! GAAHH!!
How is it that Angel is able to leap two storie buildings and Spike can't? How is it that Spike is supposed to be the super strong vamp, but Buffy regularly kicks his butt? These are deep deep mysteries.
Maybe it's like in Interview w / The Vampire - "the dark gift is different for each of us"

Then there was that vampire chick in season 4 (I think) of Angel.
She witnessed Conner dump Angel in the sea and when Conner went after her, she  crawled her way up a building-- Which neither Angel nor Spike can do.

it makes perfect sense that slayers would be stronger than vamps. If they weren't stronger, they couldn't inspire the kind of fear that they do.  - actually from a story suspense point of view, it makes sense for Buffy to be a little weaker than they are.  If she was really a lot stronger, then we would be yawning.  It was pretty exciting when Buffy got stabbed with her own stake by the stoner vamp.  It made the whole slaying thing not so easy again.  If they're stronger as when she's stripped of her powers on her 18th birthday, then she has to use her wits to take them out.  It's much more exciting that way.

The hammer bit is a cheap laugh, that's all.  Hey, they were writing in a rush.

If she was really a lot stronger, then we would be yawning. It was pretty exciting when Buffy got stabbed with her own stake by the stoner vamp. It made the whole slaying thing not so easy again. If they're stronger as when she's stripped of her powers on her 18th birthday, then she has to use her wits to take them out. It's much more exciting that way.

It makes sense that she would be stronger than the average vamp but it's better when she's weaker against others.
It really does make the story better when she actually has to use her brain (which isn't much) rather than her brawn otherwise it just seems like mindless violence.

And also, when she went up against Angel in season 2, she almost always bested him but didn't stake him because she cared too much for him.
Whereas Spike and she are pretty much equally matched-- which leads back to what scarlet said about cunning over physical power-- Spike was always just smarter than Angel when it came to fighting.

Then there's Angel S4 when he gets the big rock dude to do the dirty work for him so he can kill Faith while she's still weak.

Then there's Angel S4 when he gets the big rock dude to do the dirty work for him so he can kill Faith while she's still weak.
Well, when Faith recuperated and came back after Angelus, he managed to get her.  Though it could be argued that Faith didn't try very hard because one, she wanted to drug him, and two, she would never kill Angelus/Angel anyway.  But I will say that Angelus was pretty cunning and clever in s4.

I do agree that being able to use one's brain is more appealing than being all "Hulk smash!"

Overall i'm satisfied with Spike's strength portrayel in the whole series.  I did notice that he was weakend several times usually when the story called for it or if Spike was at a low point in his life.
Probably the weakest Spike was around  final episodes of season5 and the beginning of season6.
Those can be accounted for the fact that he was rejected by Buffy,scoobies which then followed her death up until her ressurection.

I always found it weird that at the time he should have been at his strongest, Spike was at his weakest especially for a being that in theory gets his strength from love.  Buffy needed him, she came to him and wanted his help.  Yet when it came down to it he was unable to protect Dawn and was defeated by such a pathetic demon, that Buffy easily killed.
I think it was because Joss didn't want a soulles being ,although he wasn't being evil at the time,  to win the day and be the hero.
Spike gets another chance 2years later and then he is allowed to be the grand hero, dusting 1000's of ubervamps and closing the hellmouth with the amulet and his soul.

Spike is also very weak in the opening of season6, so we are to believe he was like that the whole summer.  Just another one of the minions under Willow which didn't make any sense.  Again i believe Spike could have handeld the hellmouth and being it's guardian, yet he just patrolled with the scoobies and did his small part.
Summer of season1 and 2, both times Buffy left wasn't it the scoobies that patroled in her place?  Even if they didn't that means the hellmouth was unprotected for a few months at a time.  Spike who was several times shown to be an equal to a slayer would have no problem taking care of it on his own.
I think it was the death of Buffy that weakend him so much, he also looked terrible at that time, no doubt in a depression on losing Buffy.

About the trollhamer, yes a slayer is a little stronger then a vampire of Spike/Angel''s calibur but it was still strange cus what we got was that Buffy was able to handle it with such ease, spinning it about.  Spike couldn't even pick it up, this would suggest a huge powerdifference like The beast to a slayer.
I personaly think it was just supposed to be a funny bit, not to be taken seriously, like the fight between Spike and puppet Angel in Smile time.  It was just a joke fight, the real fight was a few episodes before that in Destiny.

About vampires being able to do amazing stuff on Angel and not on Buffy, again different shows, Angel was also retaconned into being much more powerful then he was first shown on Buffy.   Adding so many fights to his history even with a soul, he never had a history of being a warrior.  The First explained Angel perfectly on Buffy, "you've never been a fighter, always running" or something like that.  Angel doesn't refute it.  Angelus was also not feared because of his skills in combat, he was legendary in the art of killing and cruel torture.

Spike on the otherhand was known to be a great warrior even the immensly powerful demon in Africa taunts Spike reffering to his history as "You were once a legendary dark warrior". 
End of season6 and the second half of season7 Spike gets built back up again.  First his amazing demon trials in Africa, where we again see that if Spike truelly wants something, he'll get it.  The same focusness he had going after those two slayers.  With Buffy it was really different, she didn't simply gain strength from her friends, they also several times saved her.  And Spike was also different, not the focused warrior knowing without a doubt what he's after, no this Spike had a sick Dru he had to look after + minions.  Which i just thougth was weird.  Spike with minions doesn't fit imo.
After the trials, in season7 he regains some of his former character, tracking and defeating the demon that game trough the portal in exchange for a slayer. 
In season5, he defeats Angel in a fight on all grounds, like i said if Spike really wants to win then not much would stop him.

The defeat at the hands of Dana the slayer.  There was only one fight and that ended with Spike being thrown out of the window, it ended the fight but it wasn't really a defeat for Spike, Dana didn't continue the fight and ran.  Also in the fight she did have a stake so if she had won Spike would have been dust.    I think also a factor here is that Spike is still pretty inexperienced in being a white hat, he went after her like he used to which is to kill and Spike couldn't do that now.  I don't think that he had really thougth it trough.  How would he subdue a pschyo slayer, before he knew she was a slayer he was trying to beat her up so that the demon would leave the "innocent"girl's body.  Like i said not Spike's brightest moment.  Not the mention the fact that he should have known that it was a slayer, Spike was the expert of slayers yet all of the sudden they acted as if Angel was the one.
Also in season5, Spike was the best warrior against an old one, Angel wasn't even able to land a punch.

The comics are really different and again overpower Angel, who as a human was able to survive a full-on fight with Illyria.
A just turned Gunn uses three slayers as his personal training tools, a lot of things like this are why i don't consider the comics to be the real continuation of the series.  I just consider them two different stories. 
Story wise they are very good with nice development  for the leads.
I still hope that Joss will use Spike and maybe bring him over to season 8/9.  For all it's faults atleast they get to travel around the world where as here Spike simply gets stuck in Angel's little corner, i'm sooo sick of LA.  It never felt like a place that Spike would remain in to me.
And i would like to see how Spike/scoobies/Buffy/slayers would now interact.  Spike is just as much of a hero as they are now, a meeting of equals.

Yet when it came down to it he was unable to protect Dawn and was defeated by such a pathetic demon, that Buffy easily killed.
Yeah, he was still on the mend after enduring torture at the hands of a Hell god...I think it's fair to say he wasn't at full strength.  Not to mention that earlier, going against Doc, he didn't do much better--Xander had to bail him out.

Yeah, he was still on the mend after enduring torture at the hands of a Hell god...I think it's fair to say he wasn't at full strength. Not to mention that earlier, going against Doc, he didn't do much better--Xander had to bail him out.

Yep, i also considerd that as part of his weakning.  But given what we saw of the extent of damage he received from the Glory beating it didn't seem that serious.  I mean the wounds he got from letting Buffy pound him or the fight with Angel looked more bloody and damaging.
Good point, i also didn't get that fight, Xander the human did much better then Spike.  And both times Spike faced doc it was without his vamp-mask as if he didn't even seem to want to try and defeat him.

In theory it sounds perfect, powerful vampire that came several times close to defeating Buffy.  As her partner they would be an almost unstoppable, fighting in sync,feeling eachother's moves.  Instead Riley got to be the super equal fighting buddy to Buffy in season4/5.  While Spike just seemed off and weak.

Summer of season1 and 2, both times Buffy left wasn't it the scoobies that patroled in her place? Actually, they don't in the Summer between 1 and 2.  In the beginning scene of S2 (When She Was Bad):

Xander:  (interrupts) Y'know, I just gotta say that this has been the
most boring summer ever.
Willow:  Yeah, but on the plus side no monsters or stuff.
Xander:  I'm just so restless! I'm actually looking forward to school
startin' up again.

(Which makes one wonder if the monsters aren't attracted more to Buffy than the Hellmouth?)

They do patrol between S2 and S3 while Buffy is still being a run away in Los Angeles.

Here is a very good essay that brings in some important aspects of the inconsistencies and problems with story arcs - while it is primarily about Tara's death and the Magic Addiction Willow arc, the arguments I think apply in particular to the series from season 5 onto the end.  Things like the troll hammer and Strengths - while we know that the goal is "comedy" the logic and continuity gets skewed.

http://amberbenson.yuku.com/topic/2516

Another thing that bugs me in the show is that Buffy realllly is not that strong.
When you look at everything she does, all her feats and fighting styles and all the moves the vamps do (aside from the semi flying action) really aren't that special.

I mean honestly, Jackie Chan can fight way better than her.
When I see her do her training with Giles I'm always like "pshh, I can do that". All her flips and jumps and kicks are things that any normal girl can do with proper training. The only things that prove that she has any superior strengths at all is the fact that we've seen her bend a rifle (the ep with oz).

Other than that, she really hasn't demonstrated anything that any other girl can't do.
II mean, really! Any well practiced martial artist can punch their hand through wood and stone. Joss should have emphasized her powers a little more because seriously-- when I see her fighting I KNOW I could soo totally kick her ass!

I love the humor in BtVS and season five of AtS. Sometimes they make a moment funny when it should be totally inappropriate, but it works. I know the troll hammer wasn't a hint as to the slayer's true powers compared to a vampire and can be used as a scale. It was just a gag trying to distract us from the fact that Olaf somehow become a God. In AtS, when puppet Angel and Spike fight, I crack up. It's freakin' hilarious. It is not saying Spike is weak or Angel is the better fighter or anything like that.

What I cannot accept and i think should not have been in the show at all, was Doc.

Doc defeated Spike. That look on Spike's face when he looked at Dawn right before being thrown from the tower, when he realizes he's failed... Then the amazing, smiling creepiness as Doc murmurs, "Shallow cuts, shallow cuts, let the blood flow free." while BLEEDING Dawn and beginning the destruction of countless worlds...  When we have to know that Dawn will have to die or thousands of people will die... It's powerful, emotional, and real. It's the season finale. It ends with Buffy sacrificing her life. And it's because of Doc, because Spike couldn't stop him. And Buffy just shoves him off the tower? Not Funny, people! It totally undercuts the importance of what is happening, like a glitch in our feelings as we're watching. It mocks Spike's failure that he was defeated by such a wimp Buffy took out easily. How could they do that to us? If there wasn't time for a big fight for Buffy to defeat him, it only would have taken a few more seconds to show Buffy seeing dawn, becoming furious, being driven by that anger to be better and stronger and faster, and dodge a Doc attack before throwing him from the tower to rush to her sister!
That part always bugged me.

That look on Spike's face when he looked at Dawn right before being thrown from the tower, when he realizes he's failed... Then the amazing, smiling creepiness as Doc murmurs, "Shallow cuts, shallow cuts, let the blood flow free." while BLEEDING Dawn and beginning the destruction of countless worlds... When we have to know that Dawn will have to die or thousands of people will die... It's powerful, emotional, and real. It's the season finale. It ends with Buffy sacrificing her life. And it's because of Doc, because Spike couldn't stop him. And Buffy just shoves him off the tower? Not Funny, people! It totally undercuts the importance of what is happening, like a glitch in our feelings as we're watching. It mocks Spike's failure that he was defeated by such a wimp Buffy took out easily. How could they do that to us? If there wasn't time for a big fight for Buffy to defeat him, it only would have taken a few more seconds to show Buffy seeing dawn, becoming furious, being driven by that anger to be better and stronger and faster, and dodge a Doc attack before throwing him from the tower to rush to her sister! That part always bugged me.

Ditto for me. Even if Spike was weakened by torture from Glory mocking him then was just bad taste.

I think that more than anything with the Spike-Doc Scene is that once again the writers skewed the character to his detriment as a simple plot device - It is so illogical to have Spike get involved in a verbal snark match with Doc instead of his going right into the effort of doing his mission and saving Dawn.  I don't think that Spike would have done anything but be focused in saving her under these circumstances - But again, the writers turned him into doing a block-headed move.  It would have been just as simple to have Doc over power Spike by magic or physically while he is already engaged in saving Dawn instead of their verbal snark scene.  The viewers are left with sense that Spike should have gone right into Save Dawn Mode which I believe is what he would have done, as would anyone other character - Giles, Xander, anyone of them, including Spike would have made that their focus.  Badly handled scene for such an important part of the Spike transformation arc - even with the "don't smell a soul" line.

I think it was in character for Spike to start smarting off (I would, eh  smiley face)  Given the opportunity, Spike doesn't  just jump into fights, he thinks of a way to trick his opponent.  He studies them first sometimes, too.  He may think that all he has to do is stall Doc long enough and the time for the ritual will pass and he may be looking for a weakness or an advantage.  When Spike first gets to the top of the platform, Doc is between him and Dawn.  He probably was planning to sneak up on Doc and toss him off - if he even was certain that Doc was part of the evil - but Dawn lets out a shriek and tips Doc off to Spike's presence.   It's also completely Spike's desserts that he loses, not by fighting and being bested, but by being tricked and falling. 

He probably was planning to sneak up on Doc and toss him off - if he even was certain that Doc was part of the evil - but Dawn lets out a shriek and tips Doc off to Spike's presence. It's also completely Spike's desserts that he loses, not by fighting and being bested, but by being tricked and falling.

I think he must have been panicking. I don't think he's ever been in a situation like that before. It was all new to him.
He's was in love with the slayer and someone was trying to kill her little sister.
He might also have felt a big-brotherly attachment towards Dawn which he has never known before.
She may well have been the only girl he ever cared about and who cared about him back in a none sexual way.

Mesh~

What I cannot accept and i think should not have been in the show at all, was Doc.

I totally agree.

I think he was put there in the show in the first place just to get in the way and foil Spike's plans to save Dawn. Sooo annoying!

He probably was planning to sneak up on Doc and toss him off - if he even was certain that Doc was part of the evil - but Dawn lets out a shriek and tips Doc off to Spike's presence. It's also completely Spike's desserts that he loses, not by fighting and being bested, but by being tricked and falling.

Plus the people don't stayed dead is a great foreshadow of the next season and a powerful intro to Spike's I save you every night scene.  This scene of his failure to save Dawn is also a very good contrast to the last Doc-Spike-Dawn episode with the resurrection spell and eggs.  The contrast from this first Doc encounter also gives a big emphasis on how much Spike is changing.  I always disliked that story arc of Dawn and Spike and the resurrection of Joyce. 

Spike and his snarky mouth are cause for  a great deal of self imposed failure and grief.

all I am saying is that maybe a straight head on attack might have been a better scene from the perspective of giving the character more "hero" strength.
Spike was stuck, though.  He runs up the stairs, not knowing who or what is up there with Dawn, gets up to the top and starts stalking forth, noticing Doc (who nearly kicked his ass only hours before), sneaking up upon him...and then Dawn alerts Doc to Spike's presence, ruining whatever plan Spike was about to enact.

So what does Spike do?  He uses his snark to attempt to stall. 

Honestly, if Dawn had kept her mouth shut, maybe Spike could have saved her.  But she ruined his element of surprise, which he greatly needed at that point, not being in top form and all.